Your Team's AI Instincts: Why AI Adoption Succeeds or Fails on How You're Wired

Speaker A: This episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast is brought to you by Instinctive Drives. One thing I hear time and again from HR Leaders is that AI adoption isn't unfolding as expected. The tools are in place, the training has been delivered, yet some people embrace AI almost immediately, while others barely engage. And many of the change management frameworks we've relied on for years don't fully explain why. What if the answer is something more instinctive? Joining me today are, uh, Mike Flanagan, corporate Vice President for Customer success at Microsoft, whose team helps organizations around the world realize the value of their AI investments, and Paul Burgess, founder and CEO, uh, of Instinctive Drives. For more than 35 years, Paul has studied the innate, unchanging instincts that shape how we think and communicate and make decisions. Recently, Microsoft and Instinctive Drives partnered to explore why successful AI adoption depends as much on understanding people as it does on the technology itself. In our conversation, we discuss why instinctive behavior may be the missing piece in many AI transformation programs, what the four instinctive drives are, and why some people naturally embrace experimentation, while others need greater certainty before they trust something new. We also look at understanding how these differences can accelerate adoption. We also explore how Microsoft and its customers are using these insights to build stronger project teams by bringing together the right mix of instincts at each stage of an AI transformation, helping organizations realize value more quickly. If you've been wondering why AI adoption varies so dramatically across your organization, this conversation offers a compelling new perspective. So, without further ado, let's get into it.

Speaker B: Mike, Paul, welcome to the show. Let's start with giving listeners a quick sense of who each of you are and what you do. Uh, and then we'll get into the conversation.

Speaker A: So, Paul, do you want to go first?

Speaker C: Sure. Thanks, David. Thank you for having me. So, I'm coming to you from Sydney, Australia. I'm Aussie born and bred. Uh, I've been doing what I do for the last 35 years, which is all to do with human motivation and what we call the Instinctive Drives program. Understanding the innate motivations, um, behind people's actions and reactions. And that business has taken me all over the world, uh, where I actually met m. Mike many years ago. But I have a fairly strong footprint with our work in the US and also with our team here in Australia. So I bounce between the two and, um, yeah, keeps me very busy and very fulfilled.

Speaker B: And actually, uh, Paul, this is. Before I introduce you, Mike, this is the first time we've done one of these podcast episodes, and we're recording on three continents, so you're in Australia.

Speaker C: There you go.

Speaker B: I'm in Europe. And Mike, you're in the U.S. i am indeed.

Speaker D: Uh, great to be here, David. Thanks for having me. Um, as you mentioned, I'm responsible for customer success at Microsoft. And for us, what that really means, uh, is, uh, my team around the world helps customers achieve the outcomes that they intended when they acquired Microsoft technology. Uh, obviously, lately a lot of that has to do with AI and making sure that they achieve the ambitions that they set out with.

Speaker B: Paul, I'm going to come to you on this. I can see numbers on each of our screen now. For those of you watching on video, you'll see this. For those that can't, Mike's number is 5338. Paul's is 8147. And mine is. I can't see it on my screen. So I'm going to guess it's 6347, I think, isn't it, Paul? Is that right?

Speaker C: Correct.

Speaker B: So I know these reflect our instinctive drive. So Paul, can you explain to our listeners what they say about Mike, about you and about me?

Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So ID stands for instinctive drives. What you're seeing on the screen here is a little protocol that we actually bring into teams. So it becomes a common language across a business where, even though we may not have worked together before, which is our case with you, David, once we know someone's id, it tells us a little bit about that person, how they're wired and why they do the things that they do. Those four numbers represent the four different instinctive drives. So the first number is what we call the instinct to verify. The second the instinct to authenticate. The third is the instinct to complete. And the last one is the instinct to improvise. And, and you're rated on a scale from one to nine. So think of five as in the middle. Anything that goes above five. So six through nine, you're driven to use that instinct. If you're driven from four down to one, you're driven to avoid that instinct. So if you look at, look at our scores in the instinct to verify the first one. I'm going up. I'm. Ah, a five. You're going, uh, sorry, an eight. You're going up as well. You're a six. So that means you're driven by that instinct, but not as intensely as what I am. I'm even more intense than you. And Mike is in the middle. So he's, he's like a car in neutral that goes. Yeah, you Know, I can sort of take it or leave it. I can, I can do that stuff. I could also not do it. I'm not really fussed either way. But if you look at the last drive, the, the fourth number, you can see that all three of us are, uh, driven up. You and I are a seven, Mike is an eight. So that's a strong drive in all three of us, and that means something. So the drive to verify is the instinct that just naturally causes you to want to think things through and weigh them up and compare them and check them, make sure they're right. That's the real thinking id. If you're driven to avoid that drive, like some people are, uh, in fact, half the world is driven up on the drives and half is driven down to avoid it. But they're the people that get sort of like confused with all of the data and detail. They're driven more by a gut feel. They have a visceral reaction. They just know when it's right. So the second drive, we call that the instinct to authenticate. And I'm sure the listeners will know some of these people, they're the straight shooters, the people that are very literal, they call a spade a spade. They just tell it like it is. Some people, that's whether they're in a, you know, the right environment or not, they just speak their truth. And there are other people that are much more sensitive and diplomatic and more concerned with how things are going to land, you know, the way it's perceived, the feelings and emotions in the mix rather than the literalness of things. So when they say things like, I'll, uh, call you back in five minutes. A literal person, the authenticators, they mean like five minutes. In my case, you know, it's 18 after the hour now, it would be at, uh, 23, that phone's going to call. But if you're an avoid authenticate person, that means you mean, you know, like five minutes in quotes, you know, like soon. And so whilst some people go, yeah, well, that's fair enough, that actually causes a lot of friction in communication because if you've got somebody who's literal and somebody who's not, they don't interpret as a difference, they interpreters. You lied to me because you didn't do what you said you're going to do. It's big in how teams communicate together just quickly.

Speaker B: So if you've got a one working with a nine, then there could be some conflict there big time.

Speaker C: And the same in any drive. If you've got, if you've got big differences in any drive. Even though both are right or both are normal in their minds and both can justify their existence. The differences are what can cause friction when people don't understand those differences just quickly on the other two drives, the instinct to complete are the people that need to see the whole jigsaw puzzle fitting together. Everything being in harmony is what works for them. And the last drive, the instinct to improvise, which, as I said before, is strong in Mike and also in you and I, David. That's the drive where people get a buzz out of the big, exciting, seemingly impossible challenges. The more something is like, I don't know how we're going to do this. We just got to figure this out and, and go for it. That sense of like, let's go after the mountain, that's the, the people driven to improvise. They are excited and thrive in that type of energy. If you are a void in that drive, that means like, whoa, whoa. When you guys have blazed the trail and I can see where it's going, then, then I can, I'm, I'm more comfortable. But stepping off the cliff into the unknown that causes massive anxiety.

Speaker B: Well, what's great is we're recording a podcast together, the three of us, and all of us have. It seems like quite a strong instinct to improvise. Uh, it should make the conversation quite interesting over the next 40 minutes or so. Uh, I could ask you a stack of questions about this, Paul, but I'm going to ask. I was going to ask two. Firstly, you know, what made you go for something different to the personality tests that most of us will have completed many of, uh, during our time as, uh, employees, uh, in various companies around the world.

Speaker C: Great question. I mean, when I, when I first. So I was, I was in a different business altogether 35 years ago. And I, it was a financial planning style of business where I was helping the succession planning of business owners. And, uh, I would have the, the father come to me and say, I'm going to, you know, retire in three years time. And I've got my son here who's done a business degree and he's a, he's my son and he's the oldest in the family, so he's the heir apparent. But you know, when you meet people and you just, there's just something where you sort of go like, it's not going to work. You know, there's something about the person that although they've got the degree and they're, you know, the eldest, doesn't Mean, they're suited to the role. And I was. I could see that no matter what financial plans are put in place, if we didn't get the people elements right, then I was probably setting them up for a catastrophe. And I wondered, how do you define that? So I went looking for, you know, answers, and I found psychometric testing. But all of the different personality tests and behavioral models all looked at what people did, like what their strengths were or what their characteristics were, but they didn't explain to you, but why are you like that? Are, uh, you like that because you've had 15 years in the military, or because you're male, or because you're, you know, the oldest child or, you know, middle child syndrome or what. What. What is the reason you like that? Or is it just you're born that way? You're. You're the spots on the leopard that. That's just who you are. 35 years ago, there was, uh, there was a. A real distancing from the nature element of our makeup. The whole school of thought in psychology was all around cognitive behavior therapy that would basically fashion people to be whatever we or they wanted to be. With enough training, enough, um, enough motivation, enough remuneration, we could incentivize people to be whoever they wanted to be. And people would say to me, I did it. I did that. I became more organized, I became more assertive. I became, you know, more people oriented. But, you know, after 10 years of doing it, or maybe longer, it just feels so false. I'm, uh, not being true to who I am. I don't like who I am. My wife or husband has said, like, where is the person I married? And they could feel that. Although they were, if you like, living up to, uh, a Persona, it wasn't honoring who they were. And there was a hollowness and massive frustration inside them about it. And so I wondered, there must be something deeper that was more fundamental. And maybe there was, in fact, a lot more credibility to this nature part of who we are. And I kept going with my research, um, admittedly with a lot of heat from people criticizing what I was doing. And I actually found that there were. There are indeed natural, instinctive drives within a human being and, you know, continuing with my work to define what they were and put the whole framework together. And now, you know, people are very accepting of my work, I think, not only because I've got a lot more water under the bridge myself, but I think people have come to see, in time, so many life experiences like midlife crisis and seed changes and People being more, I guess, open to different ways to do things in a more regimented way of raising children, you know, grooming employees and so on. There's more room for diversity in many ways in our culture. Just think of, you know, so many things personally where people are, you know, I'm thinking of um, you know, people with disabilities, um, men and women and how they're like the whole equality spectrum. There's been a lot of change in the last 35 years where people are more open to diversity, but that doesn't mean they know how to work with it. They might be open to it, but they still struggle with understanding people quickly and um, moving at speed. Which obviously in business today is, you know, a really significant pressure.

Speaker A: This episode is brought to you by Instinctive Drives. Right now, organizations everywhere are investing heavily in AI. But the people expected to deliver on that investment are often overwhelmed, uncertain, um, and working against their own natural wiring. Instinctive Drives changes that. Their science backed methodology reveals how each other, each person is instinctively wired to work and they put that insight to work at every level of the organization. Coaching that helps individuals turn self awareness into real shifts in mindset, performance and well being. Consulting that equips leaders and teams with high performing team protocols to fast track goals and navigate change. And executive advisory acting as trusted advisors to senior leadership on personal growth and the people side of performance. It's why Microsoft chose Instinctive Drives as their strategic Partner for Enterprise AI Adoption Worldwide. Visit instinctivedrives.com digitalhr leaders that's instinctivedrives.com digitalHRleaders.

Speaker B: So I took the test um, earlier today because I was actually intrigued by it. It's a, it's a really good set of questions actually. She really makes you, it makes you think a little bit. And would it be different if, would my result be different if I took it in 5 years, 10 years time? If you see that from, from, from people that their instinctive drives evolve, I'm guessing the fact it's called instinct possibly suggests it doesn't. Unless you try and play the question.

Speaker C: You know what's really funny David, that we get asked a lot that you know, question.

Speaker B: I bet you do.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: When I say to people, no, it doesn't change over time and I've had people take it again and again over the years. The people that typically do retake it are the verifiers who want to just check one more time that things haven't changed. And as they're sort of setting off to do it, they go, uh, I'm sort of proving it, aren't I that by going off to check it I'm proving I'm still a verifier. But yes, it doesn't change. What changes this is really important is the degree to which we're in stride or not the degree to which we're being true to ourselves. And so whilst your instincts remain very constant in who you are, we have all been in roles and relationships where we are uh, varying degrees aligned to our ID and that's what determines the, our satisfaction and fulfillment in life and how we show up to others. It's, you know, athletes talk about being in the zone or in flow state as some people say. That's what happens when you're in stride. And if you want to present the very best version of yourself being aligned to your id that's the way to do it, you know, and then knowing how to stay there. Great.

Speaker B: I'm sure we'll touch on more questions uh, as we go through. Mike, I'm going to turn to you because I really want to hear from you. Uh, obviously Microsoft has recently partnered with Instinctive Drive so to support specific uh, use case around AI adoption. Uh, I think one that uh, a lot of uh, listeners will be thinking about in their own roles uh, and companies at the moment particularly given that a lot of our listeners are from the HR domain. Tell me more about the partnership and how it came about and what you're seeing maybe um, at Microsoft, maybe as it comes, obviously it comes to customers and maybe, I don't know internally as well. If you're using it internally.

Speaker D: Yeah, look, I, I think the, you know there are a bunch of, bunch of quotes from researchers in the AI space. Uh, and, and in you know, in, in technology companies who've said technology was originally the, the problem with AI. Right. It was really hard if you think back to the early days of analytics and machine learning because you know you, you really had to have ah, an advanced degree in computer science to, to, to understand how to make AI work for you. The reality is AI adoption ah, is no longer a technology problem. Um, AI is available to every one of us through a browser. Human language, uh, natural language, very easy to use. Um, it is now a human adoption challenge for organizations. Um, and if you think about classic um, change management frameworks, I'll pick Adkar because it's easy. Um, it tells you what has to happen for change to stick. What it doesn't really help you understand is why people move or don't move through the stages um, of Adkar and so when you put together a change management framework like Adkar, with a personality instrument like instinctive drives, it can kind of help you understand that people don't really resist AI. Um, they resist certain things for instinctual reasons that prevent them from being successful with AI. And as an organization, if you're trying to use AI to reimagine a customer experience, reimagine an employee experience, bend the curve on innovation, reinvent a business process to drive a better outcome, uh, those things, um, they require people to embrace the technology. They require people to move through those stages, um, and get to a place where, um, the change in the way that we work has been successful. Understanding, um, why people are not quickly moving through those stages or perhaps why your organization can't seem to get out of pilot mode, um, is a really important part of driving from having a great idea to having a substantial business outcome that your CFO can embrace. And so where I see customers having challenges with getting to realization of the value from the AI ambition that they have, quite often we realize it's nothing to do with the technology. The technology is working exactly as designed and actually is quite easy to implement. What we have is a human challenge with either the processes that we're using to identify and progress projects or with people who just maybe have a psychological safety challenge, uh, because of the way that, you know, the way that the AI project has been presented to them.

Speaker B: And I think it's interesting because if we think about it, you know, adopting AI, whether it's as an individual, whether it's as a team, whether it's as an organization, and obviously in Microsoft, obviously you're looking within the company, but you're also looking at your customers that are using, particularly, I guess, your enterprise customers, um, in terms of adopting some of the new tools that you're developing at the company. Um, and it's, you know, ultimately, you know, the misnomer is that it's a technology transformation. It's actually a people transformation. Because as you alluded to there, or as you said there, Mike, it's about people taking this on and using it themselves, even though it's not necessarily the AI that's preventing from the midstate states themselves. Or it could be stuff to do with the, uh, the way things are communicated within the organization, whether they see AI as an opportunity, a threat, et cetera, et cetera. All things that, ah, I guess your instincts can potentially magnify, um, or as well, um, how, how are you using. So how are you actually using instinctive drives? Um, the, the kind of the, the four numbers with, with customers, um, to, to actually help them overcome some of these challenges.

Speaker D: So what we often see just, you know, pattern identification is important. So the pattern that we often see is uh, you know, some, somebody gets excited, whether it's the IT department or a business leader inside of a company about we're going to use AI to do a thing and typically it falls into four buckets. As I mentioned. It's either something to do with the employee experience, like we're going to change the way we onboard new employees. Something uh, to do with the customer experience. You know, customer, uh, support is a great example. Customer service, um, is a great example of where AI can, can change the experience. Um, you know, bending the curve on innovation, things like, you know, drug research and um, these things that you know, take, take a long, long time and innovation cycles that we believe that we can change or, or changing a business process like reinventing the way that we manufacture a, you know, a widget, um, in, in any of those sort of four categories. The first step is almost always we're going to assemble a team of experts. We're going to assemble a team person who understands the process. We're going to understand a person who understands attack. We're going to somebody who understands sort of the, you know, the legalities, the governance controls that we have to have in place. However you build your, your expert team, you typically do that based on their subject matter expertise. Um, fairly, you know, fairly classic enterprise, um, thinking of just if we put all the, all the people with the right brains in the room, we'll get to the outcome. Um, but what that doesn't take into account is how those people are wired. Um, so, you know, some people are wired to seek certainty and security. They see AI as a threat. So they raise their hand to be on the project team, but not because they're excited, it's because they're scared and they want to make sure that the thing doesn't happen or it doesn't happen too quickly. Other people are wired for novelty, right? They're, they're wired for, um, I want to do new things. I love new things. I can't wait. I'm going to jump in. Um, but maybe they don't have an instinctive drive to complete things, which means they bring a lot of energy at the beginning. They raise their hand, they jump in, they can't wait. Um, but they don't actually see it through, which means that you spend a lot of energy and a lot of money frankly, and Then you end up with a pilot that didn't go anywhere. Um, uh, you know, I referenced Adkar earlier. You know, Adkar talks about the fact that desire is driven by what's in it for me? Um, um, well, you know, instinctive drives understands, uh, that motivation comes from deeply personal priorities, like some people seek status. Paul and I talk about this. You want to be seen as the CIO or the CEOs champion. I, I like the thing the boss likes. And so I'm going to raise my hand to be part of this project team. But it comes from a motivation to have that status or have that recognition, not because I actually am going to be a great fit for the role on that project team. And so if we can help marry, um, the subject matter expertise that people bring, with what role in a project team are they instinctively going to play best? Um, then we can sort of field the right team, put the right team on the pitch to have everybody in the right position. Um, it gives us a much better opportunity to drive quickly from ambition to outcome. Uh, and that really is how customers realize value faster when they start a project. Um, which is what my team is chartered with doing. And so we're using instinctive drives to help say, look, appreciate that lady or gentleman raised their hand first. Maybe we should take a look at how they're wired and see are they best at the beginning of a project because they are very innovative, they think big, they have crazy ideas, um, and can bring energy there, or is this someone who's really wired to verify? In which case, at the beginning of a project, they're going to have a lot of questions that we can't answer yet because we're in experimentation mode. But if you insert them a bit later in the project, they're going to bring energy towards completion. They're going to make sure that we have data that supports the financial case. They're going to make sure that we have data that supports the business impact that ultimately the business owner will be excited about. Um, and so putting the right people in the right positions in that project team is how we're using instinctive drives. Brilliant.

Speaker B: Paul, let's expand on that a little bit because obviously you're working with multiple organizations across various, um, different use cases. But let's stick with the AI adoption one for the time being. So, I mean, Mike's talked a little bit about, um, how Microsoft's obviously using it with customers. When we think about the people needed to drive successful AI adoption, you know, who do we need? Who are the early Adopters, who are the people who can actually shift hearts and minds rather than just tick a box on a change plan? Who can really inspire others, perhaps, um, and then maybe who are the ones, uh, I think, um, Mike alluded to then, the completers, um, who are quietly the ones who can get things over the line.

Speaker C: So. That's exactly right. I mean, as Mike said, most people either get tapped or volunteer based on their domain expertise. Expertise is important. But you've got to have the mindset, you know, when you're kicking something off that's fresh. You've got to have people that are wired for early adoption. And if people say they are, uh, but they're not wired for it, that incongruency, it just burns them out and people lose their confidence and their willingness to keep playing. And so it's a quick burn and they're done. You see, people who aren't meant to be there, who aren't naturally suited in that role, they become very controlling because they're not at the best that way, right? So everyone gets disenfranchised. So you've got to have early adopters. You've also got to have, in that early adopter style, people who are natural collaborators. Because if you get. And the ID can define who the early adopter, there's certain drives that define that. That's early adoption. And there are certain drives that define, avoid, uh, sorry, um, collaboration. And so when you get people who are naturally collaborative and see it sounds like a bit of a value where you think, well, everyone would say that I'm collaborative. I had a lady the other day say to me, but I'm collaborative. Like, yes, when you decide to be collaborative, you can be collaborative, but a natural collaborator is collaborative all the time. And because their instinct is to be like that, they are just naturally inclusive. And so what happens is, when someone shares a point of view that they weren't expecting, or they don't even agree with it, the way they naturally react is still very accepting and inclusive of that person. Whereas the person who isn't a collaborator but is trying to be reacts with judgment that disenfranchises somebody. So when we put the natural, um, early adopter with the collaboration mindset together in the leadership of the initiative, you're set up for success. But you need each of the other players who are going to come into play in due course. You need your evangelists, you need your delivery and completion people, you need the builders and scalers, all these different roles. And I think of them like an orchestra at different times in the score, they're going to be more prominent in the music. And the right conductor being that the leader knows when to call on that different mindset depending on what's needed. So we can map during the journey of the, of the AI adoption pathway all of those different mindsets that are needed. We make sure that we've got all of them being led by the right people and then call on those different strengths as, or different mindsets as you know, required through the journey. And so far as people have been introduced to it, I mean honestly, the reception has been remarkable because I think they've felt it but haven't known how to describe it. And they uh, what I've noticed is people feel a relief because otherwise they're expected to be an equal player in every stage of the journey and they know they're not. So they don't have to be false about that anymore. Just relaxes them and then they can play to their strengths.

Speaker A: I want to take a short break from this episode to to introduce the insight 222 people analytics program. Designed for senior leaders to connect, grow and lead in the evolving world of people analytics. The program brings together top HR professionals with extensive experience from global companies offering a unique platform to expand your influence, gain invaluable industry insight and tackle real world business challenges. As a member, you'll gain access to over 40 in person and virtual events a year, advisory sessions with seasoned practitioners, as well as insights, ideas and learning to stay up to date with best practices and new thinking. Every connection made brings new possibilities to elevate your impact and drive meaningful change. To learn more, head over to insight222.com program and join our group of global leaders. Paul, let's stay with you a minute.

Speaker B: Just on the, on the next question, you talked about the conductor, the leader. How does it change the way a leader has to manage a team through an AI rollout? A HANT or an AI? Yeah. Compared to how they'd run a more traditional change program you alluded to with AI, it's different because we're all having to reimagine ourselves. Presumably that that applies to leaders even more.

Speaker C: So I think the responsibility has been the same. I uh, think the difference is how it enables the leaders because there's always been a need for a leader to be focused on the people. But when they don't feel confident with how to get the best out of their people, what they do by default is focus on the task. And you find that most initiatives very quickly revert to task Like, I don't even want to be here in this meeting. So just tell me what you need from me and I'll go get it done. You know, that's what, you know, the jigsaw puzzle becomes separate pieces of the puzzle and people go off to do their thing because then they can tick the box and say that they've delivered what was expected of them. But that task orientation kills an initiative. The best initiatives are where the people feel valued for being who they are and called on to contribute their strengths. And so when a leader now can understand what are the differences in this team and when do I call on which person, at what time they've got this new insight into how to play the game that not only keeps them excited from a leadership point of view because they can see progress, but the other thing that they focus on is keeping their people in stride. Um, I'm finding leaders now spending more time with their people but getting much better results because they feel, you know, more aware of why that person is doing what they're doing, when to call on them, how to best use them. And they're rich conversations, you know, when people are really responding and appreciative for how they're being engaged, um, that's really exciting to a leader. So although it sounds like they're putting more effort and time into the people side, it's actually where they should be spending their time. But they're getting so much more return on that investment, it's worth it for them to do it.

Speaker B: And Mike, coming back to you again, I mean, how are you seeing this play out what Paul's just been talking about there at Microsoft? Both at Microsoft, but obviously principally, I guess, for your responsibility with customers as it plays to leaders, uh, and various, um, drives within teams.

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, I think first of all, just having an awareness and a language to put to that awareness so that you can have a conversation about it. Uh, you know, when we talk to customers about building the right project team, uh, around an AI program or project, uh, having a framework, having a language that we can use, uh, to quickly come together, lets us shortcut a lot of things. Right? Like it's not a judgment statement to say when I hear AI, I think opportunity. When Paul hears AI, he thinks risk. Like there's no judgment there, it's just a reality. It's uh, a reality of whether you're wired for certainty and security or w wired for novelty. Um, and, and so having a language to put to that that is non judgmental. This is why we put the IDs on the screen here today. This is why we, you know, uh, Paul will recommend if you, if you use, uh, instinctive drives in your organization, that you put it in your email signature so that you, it becomes a natural language when you can speak to people about the differences in the way that people are wired without judgment. Um, I want everybody on the project team who wants to be on the project team. I just want them all in the right position so that they can work well together and help us drive forward to the outcome. Um, you know, what we find with AI projects, uh, is you are, um, you know, you're not going to mandate that an organization becomes successful with AI. You can mandate that they get started. You can mandate that people use a tool. You can mandate that they change the way that they work. But ultimately what you're, you know, what, what, what you're seeking is that people have the sort of the, in, you know, intrinsic motivation, uh, to do things differently. Um, some people are going to be very excited about leaning into early experimentation. With early experimentation, there's a lot of failure. There are other people who are driven to avoid failing. That creates a lot of fear for them. Uh, and so those people that, you know, they're simply not going to be the right person in the early stage of a project. And helping our customers understand that means that they can put the, you know, they can put the right people in the right places in a project. It's not, again, it's not about judgment or being exclusionary, um, but it is about putting people who have the right instincts at a certain phase of a project, in the chair at that phase of the project to help orchestrate the rest. Um, you asked about leaders and sort of what does it mean for leaders? I mean, as leaders, we all have a responsibility to help our people feel safe at work. If I force you into a role of high experimentation with a high failure rate, uh, in the early days of an AI program, knowing that your instinct is, uh, to avoid, uh, being in that situation. Um, I'm not making you feel safe at work. I'm not going to get my best work from you if you don't feel safe. And to Paul's point, it's not that you can't do it. Um, anyone can fail. That's great news. Uh, the bad news is some people are comfortable with it and other people are very uncomfortable. Um, so, uh, I think as leaders, we have a responsibility to make sure that we put people in places where they feel safe at work and they feel energized. To do their best work. We also have a responsibility to make sure that we have the right skilling programs. Um, people need to be comfortable using, ah, AI. They need to be comfortable, um, with the things that we ask them to do at work. They need to have the knowledge, they need to have the ability, ah, we need to make sure that we get the right people in the right place places for, uh, that or we create a lot of anxiety, you know, a lot of avoidance in the adoption of AI if I simply don't have the right knowledge or I don't have the right ability. Um, and, and so, you know, some people may have already done a lot of experimentation on their own at home over the weekend. You know, you plan your vacations using whatever online AI tool you have access to. So you come into work with already having the skills and the ability. Other people, they don't do that, they don't experiment. That's not their default. And so when you tell them that they need to adopt a different way of working, you have to structure skilling programs around that and make sure that people have those right skills. And then, um, you know, I think, um, uh, certainly the HR leaders listening to this podcast will appreciate the reinforcement aspect. Um, if I force you to do a thing or I convince you to do a thing, or I somehow cajole you into doing a thing once, how do I make that your default way of doing it in the future? And that comes from reinforcement. Once we understand those things about how people are wired, not only do we get the right people in the right places for a project, but we then think about how to take that project or program to scale across the entire enterprise and drive adoption, um, that everybody feels great about. If, uh, you love to experiment, I can give it to you early and you can just play with it until you figure it out. You'll fail a lot and then figure it out eventually. Um, if you're the kind of person who avoids failure, I'm, uh, going to need to put you into a structured skilling program. Make sure that you've got the right skills, the opportunity to demonstrate. I'm going to have to reinforce a bunch of times, uh, what, you know, what, what, what you're doing to make sure that that failure feels okay so that you can get to a place where it's exciting. Um, but I think those, those are the things that as leaders we have a responsibility to recognize the differences in human beings, uh, and, and help them get to the same place, but probably taking very different paths to get There, that's really interesting.

Speaker B: I'm really listening to you, Mike. You know, I can see. And again that's, that's sort of, that's uh, bringing the HR angle here as well. Um, this gives you the insights to help you build the project team, as you said, put the right people in the right places for the task that needs to be fulfilled. And we've talked about why AI adoption is maybe, you know, or rolling out AI is a different sort of challenges to others. But as you said, understanding people's instinctive drives and propensity to experiment or not or uh, comfort with experimenting or not, it helps you to apply the right sort of reinforcement or reassurance to different people, depending on where they fall on that. Um, and I'm guessing that helps you as a leader because it's basically giving you intelligence on how to best manage each of the people within your team to achieve the common goal that you're trying to achieve, um, as a project team, whether that's with a customer, whether that's internally within an organization. Um, and it's, this is people, this is understanding the human part of people. Which is obviously given that we talk about AI adoption as a use case is, you know, it's that argument that the more we use AI, the more important that the human element actually is as well. Which might be, um, that might, that might sound a bit contradictory, but I think it actually isn't. I think it actually magnifies the importance of humans. Now we're seeing in some of the organizations that we're working with, uh, uh, insight 222, um, and I know this applies at Microsoft where the HR function is taking either ownership or partnering on the role of AI transformation, AI adoption and driving that from adoption through to value and impact. Some companies are still very much relying on their IT or their technology departments to roll this out. Um, that sounds like a risk to me. Again, Paul, maybe bringing you back in here. If a company is really treating AI adoption as purely an IT rollout, you know, what are some of the challenges or risks that could involve?

Speaker C: As I mentioned earlier, I mean, I think a lot of people, when I watch these initiatives get flight, there's generally one of two ways they go. Um, they either start with the focus on the work, like what are we trying to do? What's the work we've got to do? Let's divide all the work and go and conquer the demon of AI or the opportunity of it. But it's a task oriented approach. I think that's fraught with danger. Because at the end of the day, AI is a very emotional experience. I mean, we're saying it's a human experience, but it's super emotional. It's exciting and it's got incredible possibilities that really are, uh, true and genuinely excite people. And it's got enormous fear and danger in it as well and a lot of trepidation. I mean, companies are spending billions of dollars and are yet to really be confident that they're going to see the returns on that. So there's a lot of pressure and heat on everybody to get results and reinvent and reimagine. So it's a very emotional journey. The leaders and the initiatives that start by focusing first on their people and helping them understand who they are in that journey and how they're wired and how they need to play in order to be at their best and help succeed. They are the ones that are achieving the most progress so far on what we are seeing.

Speaker D: Very good.

Speaker B: And again, some of the companies that you're working with to solve this problem, maybe some of the other challenges that the instinctive drives helps them to solve. Where are you seeing H.R. leaning in? Um, what are some of the. What guidance could you offer? Because again, predominantly the listeners are HR professionals, HR leaders around the world. What guidance would you offer on this particular topic and how, um, you know, instinctive trust can support that?

Speaker C: As Mike said, I mean, it's not a, it's not an IT issue. It's also not a HR issue. It's a business leadership issue. You know, I'm sure there's a lot of HR leaders listening who are like, we've wanted to have the people side taken more seriously, but it's actually the business leaders and, and to be honest, I mean, what really, you know, was magnetic for me with Mike was to find a leader who is with such a big remit in the AI adoption space and was so into the people side of it. You know, leading with people. Like that's what excited me to work with Mike and make it happen. Because I met somebody who was aligned, uh, to what I saw happening in the world was, uh, you know, that the people side really mattered. So I would say to the HR leaders, find a business leader who is a people oriented leader who really gets the value of people. Start there, wherever that is, if that's in marketing, if that's in sales, if that's in CX or wherever it might be, find that leader who can blaze the trail with the right combination of the people focus and the work Focus and get results there and the results of that will start to have others, you know, take notice and, and the momentum will expand.

Speaker B: So last two questions. So um, if know someone listening to this episode wanted to start applying this approach maybe for their own um, AI, uh, rollout or AI adoption, um, what's the first practical step that you point them to and maybe what's the thing that most often gets in the way? And Mike, maybe I'll start with you and then Paul, I'll let you finish

Speaker A: off and then I've got a follow

Speaker B: up for you as well. Paul?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think you know, most HR leaders uh, will already have a change framework that they're comfortable with. Um, and I think that really gives you sort of the pathway for adoption. And so whatever one you're comfortable with, um, you know, bring, bring that in. Uh, and then the thing that you need to add to it uh, is an instrument like instinctive drives that helps you understand why people move down that path at different paces. Um, and that really is back to the taste and taste making that I talked about earlier, that that really is the, is the difference. If you can understand the pathway that you need to take and why people move at different paces along that path, uh, and then refine as an organization the way that you're providing AI capability to your people, um, they will move at a faster pace towards the destination that you want. And then of course you have to continuously reinforce that movement.

Speaker B: And Paul, is there anything you'd like to add to that? And then I'll ask you a follow up on.

Speaker C: I would just say the easiest way that I think people can start is just try it. You know, try, try the id, um, as a way of understanding yourself and relate yourself into the AI equation. Think if this is true for you, could this be true for others who maybe then different to you and just see if there's that face validity for yourself. And I, I would expect that you would, you know, it's a very safe and easy way to just get started.

Speaker B: You've set up the next question absolutely perfectly Paul. Then, so for anyone listening who'd like to understand their id, their instinctive drives themselves, is there a way for them to try it?

Speaker C: Well, you know, I was thinking about this before David. I think the easiest way honestly is I'll just provide you a link, we'll put it in the, in the recording here so people can just jump online and try it and then for a limited time they can have access to the information so they can see what it shows about them and just be able to really test it at face value and that's the easiest way. So let's, let's make that an offer to all of your listeners.

Speaker B: Yeah, we'll do that. Thank you very much. That's a really kind offer. So anyone listening intrigued wants to find out more, go to the show Notes, uh, and there'll be a link in there and it will be time bound. So um, you know, hopefully you're listening to this before the end of the expiry date. I'm sure we'll, we'll put some time in um, and also go to um, my link if you can't find it there, which I'm sure you will, ah, go to my LinkedIn post about the episode and I'll make sure it's included there um, as well. Um, so before I let you both go, uh, and again thank you both for joining um, for this recording at opposite ends of the day. Um, how Mike, starting with you, you know, how can people find out more about you and keep up with, keep uh, up with what you're doing? Uh, m. And is there, yeah. Is there anything coming up that listeners that should know about.

Speaker D: Well I would uh, point to, point uh, folks to my LinkedIn as well. It sounds like they'll find information about this episode there. And uh, yeah I frequently uh, post about AI and the things that we're doing with customers and so there's a good source of information there. Would love to stay connected with your listeners. Anybody who is uh, chartered with helping the IT group to drive AI uh inside of the organization. Um, because I do really uh, genuinely believe that uh, technology is part of the equation. But it is not the uh, hardest part of that equation. It really is the human element. And HR leaders need to be partnered uh, closely with the teams that are driving AI adoption inside of their organization.

Speaker B: Great, thanks. Mike and Paul, same question to you. How can people stay in touch for you find out more about instinctive drives,

Speaker C: pretty much what you're both saying. I think there is a lot that's coming up that we're doing in this whole space and I'm loving the dialogue that it's creating. So I'd say let's all stay close on our linkedins. Um, we communicate a lot of what we're doing through that channel as well. Um, and let's see what we can share together and you know, help help each other out. So.

Speaker B: Great. Well thanks very much um, both for joining. Enjoy the rest of your day. Mike, uh, Paul, hopefully it's it's time, I know, maybe for a glass of wine or maybe straight to bed. So thank um, you very much and uh, yeah, look forward to hopefully seeing you both at M some point in the near future.

Speaker C: Thank you David.

Speaker D: Thanks David.

Speaker A: Thanks Paul. That brings us to the end of this week's episode of the Digital HR Leaders Podcast. A huge thank you to Paul and Mike for joining me today, especially given the different time zones we had to work around to make it happen. And of course, thank you to all of our listeners that tuned in today. I'd love to know what stood out to you most from the conversation with Paul. Mike, head over to LinkedIn, find my post about this episode and let me know in the comments. I read every single, single one. And honestly, the conversations that happen there often build on the ones that we have on the show. And as Paul mentioned, he's kindly offering listeners the chance to try the instinctive Dryas assessment for themselves. For a limited time. You'll find the link in the show notes or on that same LinkedIn post if it's easier to find it there. If you found this conversation valuable, please do subscribe to the podcast, share it with your network and leave us a rating or review. And don't forget to head over to insight222.com follow us on LinkedIn or sign up for our weekly newsletter, uh, @uh, myhrfuture.com this is also our last episode before we head off for our summer break, so have a lovely summer and I'll catch you back here in a couple of weeks time. Until then, take care and stay well.