Inside Lloyds Banking Group’s People Transformation

Speaker A: This episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast is brought to you by techwolf. Today's episode is a special one as what Sharon Doherty has led at, uh, Lloyds Banking Group over the last four years is generally one of the most impressive transformations I've come across. Sharon is one of the most experienced chief people and places officers in the uk with a career spanning Heathrow, Vodafone, Fenestra and now Lloyds Banking Group, where she's been leading one of the most significant organizational transformation automations in British financial services. We're talking about a 300 year old institution reinventing itself as the UK's biggest fintech. 23 million digital customers, 50% of UK adults have a relationship with the bank and a people and places function right at the centre of making it happen. Today, Sharon and I get into what it actually takes to lead transformation at that scale. From how she structured AI governance to the super agent she's building with Microsoft across all corporate functions, to why Chros should lobby to have places as part of their it, and how Sharon has reorganized the people and places function at the bank. And for those of you who've been with us since the very beginning of the podcast, Sharon was actually our first ever guest all the way back in May 2019. So it feels fitting that Sharon is back as we approach episode 300. So without further ado, let's get into the conversation by hearing from Sharon. Sharon, welcome back to the show. You were our first guest on the Digital HR Leaders podcast all the way back in May 2019. So really excited. Seven years ago. Yeah, I know, it's, it's flown by, isn't it?

Speaker B: Now, David, you're a celebrity now.

Speaker A: I'm not sure about that. Uh, that's very kind of you. So I think we had that conversation just as you were taking on the chief peep officer role at finastra. Please share with listeners. You know, what's. What, what have you been up to in the years since your role obviously now at Lloyds Banking Group, what it involves and the career journey that brought you here, because it's definitely an inspiring one.

Speaker B: Yeah, so look, um, I was, I think I was just finishing Voda and literally before I'd gone to finaster, so I had no idea. I went into that because it was a pure play. Fintech 10,000, so pretty scaled in 30 countries and private equity and I actually really loved that. So very fast. Much more creative actually even than Voda. And so I learned a lot there and was, uh, able to work with an amazing team and then Charlie Nunn, um, uh, at Lloyd's Banking Group, knocked on the door and it was just too good an opportunity to say no to. So, uh, great CEO. The opportunity to reboot an icon. Uh, and then before that, I always sort of. I look at my career in sort of four chapters. So early career in, uh, you know, starting in. In retail. Really lucky, great mentors and got lots of breaks. Then my big break was going to be the HR and change director, uh, that built Terminal 5 and then ran Heathrow, the busiest international airport at that time. And I would say that was like my favorite job because it was real. And, um, uh, seeing all your books, I wrote a book about it, um, as, uh, as it finished. And, uh, lovely story I always tell. When my kid was about four or five, I was in the airport with him and I said, oh, you know, your mommy built this airport. And he was like, great. And then we were in the Madrid, uh, airport, and he said, mommy, did you build this one as well? Yeah. And I was like, I haven't built every airport in the world. Um, so that was a fantastic chapter. And then a decade pretty much at, uh, Vodafone, which was all about digital transformation and diversity. So, um, I wrote another book there, A Decade of Diversity at Voda, and then, uh, into financial services for the last seven, seven and a half years. And on the way, uh, I've also done, um, some neds, so that's been, um, pretty, um, pretty interesting. And at the moment I'm at the National Lottery, um, so I get the opportunity to work with two sort of UK national icons that, uh, are really sort of playing a big part in UK plc. So, um, uh, having a really good time.

Speaker A: And the nice contrast, the lottery and banking.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Both very digital though, these days, so everything'. Technology.

Speaker A: Well, we caught up a couple of months ago and I know you shared with me that Lloyds has been through, and obviously I've seen in the press as well, Lloyds has been through a significant transformation in recent years, which I imagine made it a really exciting opportunity for you to go to. How would you describe that journey and what role? And I know it's a central area. What role has the people in places, functions played in making it happen?

Speaker B: I sort of, uh, you know, I'm always trying to figure out, how do you get people to remember things? So the sort of three roles I would say I've had, uh, as I've really stepped into this role. Firstly, a storyteller, secondly a tough lover, and then, thirdly a disruptor and uh, the storyteller I think is a great role for uh, people in people and places type roles to have because uh, when you're joining a big organization and let's remember Lloyd's 80,000 people, yes, mostly the UK, but also India, some of Europe and uh, over in New York. So you've got a lot of people. Um, and although it's an amazing organization, um, you know, very much sort of an icon in, in uk it really needed a big reboot. You know, it's big. A lot needs to happen. So you need to figure out how do you take the whole organization and your customers actually on, on a journey with you. Um, and so the journey that I talk about internally is sort of past, uh, you know, the decade before we got here where it was a very tough decade and a group of people saved the bat, but they did lose market share. And then we're in the next decade and the present chapter finishes the end of 26. And that's been very much about the transformation or the reboot of Lloyd's. And then we're just about to uh, uh, head into the future and uh, we'll talk mid this year about our next chapter. Uh, so at a macro level sort of how do you talk about that journey? And actually when you find an organization with people who've been in it for a long time, you can't just think you're day one. You have to learn, understand and be really respectful about what you're inheriting and then make sense of how you transform it. Uh, and then the tough love is about uh, yes, there's some always good things you need to do. But actually in transformation there's tough things. Um, and some of that's about conversations and some of that's about, about big programs of transformation and then the disruptor, I mean that's all the way through. But now more than ever in terms of the AI transformation that imagining pretty much everybody listening into this will feel um, like they're in the middle of so, so those are the roles and, and the, the journey has been just you know, such a privilege really. New, brand new app delivered for our customers, um, and our investors on that journey and, and the people and places part role in that has been all consuming really. And it's everything from change the people, change the people. So keeping the best of Lloyds. But then within 18 months 70% of the executive team were new. Within two years 60% of the top 300 knew and by the end of this chapter, so four years 40% of the organization knew. So a lot of change, a lot of od. For us that was in particular in technology. Every function but particularly technology where we went from a big Central organization to 40 platforms, two in a box really sort of implemented scaled agile which has massively given us a competitive advantage and helped us serve our customers better and then into every policy, put performance management back in, dealt with compressed legacy issues that we had on scale, uh, rewired, reward 10 new buildings and I'm sure we'll talk about that. You know Vibey, you know, um, recognition in uh, and, and and yeah, so uh, you know, so a uh, real sort of as I said reboot of the organization because we were almost a legacy bank becoming you know the, the biggest fintech uh in the UK because we have 23 million digital customers, we have 50% of UK adults having a relationship with us. So um, that's you know we run deep into uk, um, PLC in particular. So um, yeah a big journey for the organization, for our customers, uh, but also for our people inside that. And balancing transformation, uh, taking people with you, uh, you know has been loads of learning. You can feel the impact and a real privilege to be part of.

Speaker A: You've been busy.

Speaker B: Yeah, we had.

Speaker A: And what was interesting listening to you Sharon. We'll talk about a bit more about you know managing a transformation of that scale here from. And you don't always hear from HR leaders. You didn't just mention employees and workers, you didn't just mention the leadership um, team and the board. You talked about investors as stakeholders and customers as stakeholders as well. Let me talk to that a little bit from a kind of chief people and places office officer perspective. All your stakeholders, you just be thinking about all your stakeholders as well. And I guess with, with Lloyds, with its iconic position in the, in the UK market as well, you're thinking from a societal, uh, societal perspective as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, because remember chief people place officer uh, is a uh, an executive member. So the first hat you wear is you sit around the table and you help design and, and deliver the business strategy and business strategies are always about multi stakeholders and so having to figure out what are the right trade offs um, that you make to ensure that there's a really good balance in an organization. And I think um, a good HR director uh, wears all of those hats as well but definitely has to wear the people hat.

Speaker A: This episode of the Digital HR Leaders podcast is sponsored by techwolf. The world of work is being rewritten faster than HR systems can keep up Skills age in months, roles get redesigned quarter by quarter. Chros have quietly become AI transformation leads. And the data they need to lead it doesn't exist in any HR system. That's why the world's most forward looking enterprises have built on techwolf. Techwolf is the data layer for the AI era of work. It connects three datasets that have never lived together. The skills you'll work workforce has, how their work is changing under AI and where the labor market is heading. Skills intelligence, work intelligence and market intelligence in one layer. HSBC, AMD T Mobile, GSK ServiceNow, Pfizer and AH. Many more rely on Techwolf to deliver measurable impact including cutting time to a unified skills foundation from 18 months to three, servicing 800 deployable internal candidates in under 30 days and unlocking more than $8 million in projected L&D savings at one global biopharma. If skills work and labour market data is what's standing between your Enterprise and its AI transformation, talk to Techwolf. The data layer for the AI era of work, visit techwolf.org AI that's Techwolf AI. Give a sense when you're leading a transformation of this scale and it is a significant transformation. That's where you, talking to your peers in other organizations is one of the most significant that I've um, that I've been um, that I've heard about actually to be honest. How do you know where to start? What do you prioritize and what are some of the biggest calls you talked about? The tough love piece there? What are some of the biggest calls that only leadership can make?

Speaker B: Uh, so look, I wish I knew exactly what the formula is but you know, when you uh, walk into a company, you know you need to spend a good amount of time getting out and about, uh, you know, as you walk in I would say the first thing you should do is you need to meet an organization where it is. So there's a big sort of, you know, um, listen, learn, um, be incredibly inquisitive and curious about not just what's going on but why. So you're always trying to find patterns and systems to sort of figure out what new patterns and systems that you might need to make and actually which ones are really good and you want to keep an amplify and probably the biggest, the biggest tip that I would give is that you know, pretty much everything in companies needs to start at uh, the top. Yeah, not all good ideas, but certainly the tone and the culture. And so you know, we created an amazing Executive team put tons and tons of effort into who's in the team, how they work together, uh, and then how that top 300 work together. And so we did pretty substantive cultural programs with them in a way that um, they'd not experienced before. Quite personally intrusive, um, in groups of 30, 40. So we did three on in this chapter, we call them Grow with Purpose. So real sort of cultural interventions. And then you know, if I take something like AI again started at the top, worked through uh, you know, taking our senior teams to Cambridge on a six month program. So you know, whatever it is, transformation on X transformation is the AI transformation. If the people at the top don't get it, don't lead it in the right way, um, then you know, typically it's really tough for people inside the organization to work, uh, make it work. But then there are always the sort of the fast adopters. And so um, you know we have 10,000 lists inside, um, Lloyds, uh, so people that whatever we're doing with the senior people, we do programs that they go through each year and then they go out into different parts of the organization and sort of share the messages and uh, motivate and bring ideas in a different way. So you've got to sort of figure out how do you mobilize your organization. Um, uh, um, as you move forward and prioritizing. Um, I think for me I always start with a why and figure out the story. Um, you'll love um, data and our data now, uh, when it comes to things like FTE finance and HR debt, all one version of the truth. So a massive journey. But um, when I first joined I'd heard from the HR directors that data was just not where you would want it to be. And in my first week, by the end of the week I said give me a folder with this type of data in and M because I was just desperate to see what they had and what they didn't have. And then for probably the first three months every Friday I got a paper document, became a PowerPoint document and then that's ultimately become a Google Cloud platform. And so for my first three months and I did that because again people tell you all sorts of things, which is good and you have to sort of listen. But actually um, the right data doesn't lie. And so um, trying to figure out what were people's sort of belief systems versus what the data really told you, um, was really important. So I sort of just that was always going to be something. Um, and your point about big calls so you Never know what they're going to be. And when you turn up somewhere, you know, you find out things. This was through data. Um, we found out that we had over 10,000 people working um, compressed hours, um, you know, so four day week or a nine day fortnight. And we stood back and said, you know, is this something we want to do across the whole company? Do we think this would be the right thing to do for our customers? And actually we concluded that that wasn't the case because customers want you 247 and our people in, in branches uh, you know, are working uh, very on social hours uh, versus you know some of us in HQ type roles. So we took a decision that wasn't true but you can imagine saying to 10,000 people that you're calling time on something and then to the rest of the organization that 1,000 a year were being added to that. And so our EMPs went from plus 23 to minus 31. And it went into the press, into the regulator, uh, and people were not happy but it sent a signal. It was very symbolic of actually we're here to serve customers and we need to become a high performing organization and the people in headquarter roles need to support those serving customers. And that's why we're here. And the good news is that big journey we've been on, our MPS M now has gone back up to plus 23. So uh, these are quite, but you know they're tough calls that you make and it's always easy to I should kick the can down the road when you sort of see these tough things. And uh, my advice is almost the most difficult things do first because nobody ever gets to the end of a change program and says I wish I'd gone slower. Yeah, you always say I wish I'd gone faster. And actually when you first arrive the big and tough calls, actually sometimes you, you get license to make them whereas the longer you're there it almost gets harder because you get more used to the ways of working in an organization. So, so I would say that, that really sort of said we meant business in terms of the transformation Floyd. And, and you know I would say you know our organization has gone on a tough but a really good journey with us on that. And then you know we put in flexibility work. So we actually probably have one of the best flexible the UK So you can work a four day week, uh, flexible summer, uh, so you can get to work from anywhere for six weeks. So we have a fantastic package. But now everybody gets access to it rather than A small group of people. And that's the tough love. Yeah, so it was tough to make that call but actually we put something incredibly progressive that was much fairer for a bigger group of people in place. Um, um, that uh, was probably the toughest call uh, made in the uh, first few months.

Speaker A: I want to take a short break from this episode to introduce the insight 222 people analytics program. Designed for senior leaders to connect, grow and lead in the evolving world of people analytics. The program brings together top hr ah, professionals with extensive experience from global companies offering a unique platform to explore, expand your influence, gain invaluable industry insight and tackle real world business challenges. As a member you'll gain access to over 40 in person and virtual events a year, advisory sessions with seasoned practitioners as well as insights, ideas and learning to stay up to date with best practices and new thinking. Every connection made brings new possibilities to elevate your impact and, and drive meaningful change. To learn more, head over to insight222.com program and join our group of global leaders. AI. It's kind of the topic du jour. It's more than the topic du jour actually isn't it? And again we, we talked about some of the work that you've been doing um, through the People in Places team, uh, at Lloyds Banking Group and the partnership I think you've got with the CTO there when we called up a couple of months ago. It's a major topic for every organization you know, particularly a prominent iconic brand like Lloyds Banking Group, particularly the industry you're in as well. What have you done at Lloyds and how is it changing the way that you think about work, about skills and about od.

Speaker B: So probably about two and a half years ago the executive team um, were over in Seattle with um, Satya and visiting others, sort of trying to figure out what this new technology was all about. And then a year later we were in Canada and in between we went to school to learn and that really helped. And actually I would say our senior team um, are quite tech savvy. Uh, so people got very quickly the uh, opportunities, uh, um, particularly the growth opportunities that uh, that this could create, the innovation opportunities this could create to um, allow us to differentiate and step change at pace. Then we put our top 300 through a Cambridge Sparks program. So that was the six month program and they have digital or AI ninjas that then help them one to one. Uh, then we launched our AI Academy soft launch last year and then a full company wide launch this year. And in the first quarter 100,000 courses completed. Uh, and what we see is those people that are hands on with it and actually you know, pretty much 80% of the organization has run towards it. The engagement scores massively improve. So you know, people feel like they've got agency and superpowers that they didn't have. We've put it in the hands of about 40,000 of our frontline people. So they're um, you know, they're using different tools, probably don't really think about it in you know, as they are. They think about it as their workflows have just got easier and they can serve customers better. Um, so we are um, way, way into that journey from educating. We also um, in our first year we had 50 use cases and then this year we started with 12 big bets and over 100 use cases. Generally our frame on AI is about how it will help us grow and differentiate. That's a little different to some others. And so we're really exc to have sort of live test with real customer um, uh, use cases now on invest AI. Um, so how do you democratize investment when only 10% of the UK gets access to it? So massive opportunity coach AI. So in our app that's got 23 million customers using it, we're testing how do you be able to help people inside a safe environment answer uh, questions about uh, money advice which people really really want. And of course in an LLM outside a bank they can tell you anything, um, because they're not regulated whereas our environments are. And so the advice we give has to be really good advice with the right regulation and support over it, uh, and, and, and including um, one of them being um, a super agent that will work across all corporate functions that we're leading. And I'm sure we'll talk about that. So we sort of got stuck into a lot of training, a lot of leadership, a lot of training, got stuck into real work. And I think we're sort of looking at it in at least two ways at the moment. One is in those units of work that are uh, um, involved in really differentiating projects, the big bets. Um, we're very much sort of looking at what is the squad makeup, how do those teams need to work. And we have re engineering and reimagining playbooks that, that we have been creating live documents that we're learning on all the time. Um, and then we're just starting to sort of think about. So yes, those are the big bets but what about the sort of the day to Day and lots of other functions. And we're starting to think about how when we think about AI stealing with pride from organizations like Google and Microsoft and Salesforce that we've been engaging with, they talk about people who are literate, um, fluent and native and trying to find another functions. The people that are native who are um, being a HR business partner or an accountant or a lawyer and actually what they're doing is changing their workflows using agents um, that we've put in their hands. So we've deployed the tools at scale across our organization. Then we're trying to find those people and then what watch them and then figure out what they're doing and how and why and then scale that back into larger groups. So, so you've almost got this sort of controlled big bets but then more viral learning from people that there will always be people that are further ahead and they're always surprising people. Yeah, it's not, it's not always, it's not that you know this isn't tech people, this is people that are actually using it to, to do their day in, day out work um, you know in all parts of the business. So, so we're, we're, we're, we're doing that and look, you know it's really early days but you'll hear us all talking about you know that shift from the triangle um, to the diamond. I think you'll hear you know uh, in you know the shift from people focusing on one skill that as they get augmented actually they could go deep on two or three and that, and that uh, that looks really different. So everybody is at the foothills and so again that sort of learning culture and learning organization, I think it's really you know, sort of uh, I mean that's just a deal breaker if you're, if you're not figuring out how you're going to work in that constant learning and review way then you'll be on the track and then in six months it will be the wrong track. Um, uh. So yeah, so um, a lot going on and we really appreciate some of the fantastic networks we've been able to get into to learn from so that we can then bring it back into the organization and expand experiment to scale.

Speaker A: No, no. Super impressive. And you know, particularly um, you know just pull, pull one thing out. We did some research at insight222 towards Ah, the end of last year when we predominantly with people, analytics leaders but really trying to understand what were the companies that were you know pushing the envelope with AI. Um, you know, being led through hr, what were they doing differently? And the clear thing was, you know, not surprisingly, having a clearly defined strategy, which you clearly articulated you have at Lloyds Banking Group, but also that role modeling from leaders, you know, not just in hr, across the organization. So the fact that you've enabled the top 300 is super impressive. Now I'd love to learn a bit more about this super agent Sharon that you're leading across all your kind of group functions from a people, uh, in places perspective.

Speaker B: Yeah, so look, I think, um, you know, the transformation that, that we've been on in people and places, so clearly at one level it's been not just about AI because that's come probably in a substantive way in the last sort of 12, 18 months. So we've completely sort of rebooted the function. And I have an amazing team and I'm just incredibly grateful of the work that they've done. Um, whenever you're doing a big transformation, uh, the HR team are always involved in any difficult work and any exciting work. So there's always, there's nothing that happens in a company that, um, you know, HR team, uh, aren't involved in, in some way, and particularly when it's difficult and when it's difficult work. So we've been on that journey of transformation. The sort of AI and the digital side of it has increasingly been a big part. But we were really early adopters with, um, ServiceNow. And so, um, probably a year ago, um, we were one of the first in the world to have our HR help desk powered by generative AI. Uh, and that again, coming back to, you know, things that are close to your heart, you know, that involved a lot of data cleanup. So we were quite early in versus other corporate functions in actually really sort of getting a brilliant base case for a generative AI to sit on top of. And now that, you know, got us to a place where we've brought together all corporate functions, um, and with the tech team that we work with, um, in a control tower, myself and the CTO work together, um, month in, month out on what are the use cases and what are the things, uh, we need to put in place to make this work. Then with the team, we're working across all the functions to say, how can you put an AGI super agent on top of that? Uh, and um, we're working actually with Microsoft at the moment. So again, we're ready. We're just waiting for the Microsoft technology to be ready. And we've got use cases across. Clearly the work we've done, um, uh, but then also supply chain buildings, um, which is expenses, all of those things which are just really ripe as a wave one. But then we're also getting into um, coaching, training and some of the sort of more growth value add areas as well. So we're, you know, this year we'll be uh, launching that and then you know, you go on a 1, 2, 3 year journey to just sort of, you know, get, get further ahead on it.

Speaker A: There's so much noise about AI, um, how, how do you decide what to do next? Especially you know, as I said, so much noise, so much pressure, maybe sometimes too much experimentation all happening at the same time. It's about focus, I'm guessing.

Speaker B: Yeah. So look, I alluded. So first of all you've got to sort of set yourself up. Yeah. Because this isn't like a sort of sprint and then you're done. This is the rest of your life sort of thing. Yeah. Ah, um, uh, and so, and so you need to sort of figure out how, you know, how you're gonna um, govern it at least for the first few years until it becomes sort of just what we do everywhere. And then, and then it will become much more integrated. And so we have a control tower, um, that myself and the Jiku, so the executive member accountable for technology, um, manage month in and um, month out. Um, we have an ethics committee that I'm part of. Um, we then have figured out what's the work that is most important for our company. Um, we're very disciplined on how we measure success. So we don't throw out big numbers, um, just sort of putting the kitchen sink in with it. We're very thoughtful about value so that we can really make sure we're getting value rather than chasing headlines. And so we've been very disciplined on measurement and impact for our customers, uh, whether those are employees or um, end customers. Um, so we've sort of set, we've set that up and then I think we have a mindset which is, you know, we have like real conviction about this. So you know, we're all in. We believe that this is a positive technology that with the right guard rails can demonstrably create value for UK PLC as well as for our organization. And it is a stimulator of, of things that we've dreamed about in the past. But now the technology can enable us to um, you know, to get to places that we probably couldn't get to before. So we're, we have the conviction of that but we also have ah, you know Flexibility that some of the decisions that we might make in a quarter or two weren't quite the right ones. And we, um, and we sort of, you know, we stay very agile in that. And then as I talked about, you know, in different ways we have networks, different, you know, I'm in networks, the CTOs in networks, the business leaders are in networks to try and understand where a putt is going. And actually Sandra Dirth, who you had on here, uh, amazing. And actually, you know, we have a relationship with Sandra and you know, keep talking to, learning from. So you've sort of got to do that because things are changing. And so you've got to, you know, you've got to have your tentacles in a broader base of ideas and thoughts so that then through your governance and strategy processes, you can make decisions, um, that can potentially have really big impact. And then I think you have to let people play. And look, you know, generally my hypothesis on this, it's going to. The technology is the easy bit, the, the rewiring of an organization, organizations, um, um, and even society is, is, is, Is going to take much longer. So, um, we shouldn't sort of panic, but we definitely need to be right in the front of the queue in learning, understanding, experimenting and having plans to scale. Um, and so I can see increasingly more and more businesses, uh, are there, um, but it's easier if you start and even if it's small things, learn and your confidence grows the new weight, um, and then suddenly you're going to feel very left behind. So get going, um, and have conviction, but be prepared to pivot and flex as you learn.

Speaker A: Very good. And the two real opportunities for HR people in places, functions, I guess is leading that organizational transformation for the business, but also looking at ourselves. And I know that you've been doing a significant transformation of people and places, uh, at Lloyds Banking Group. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Sharon, what work do HR teams do you feel need to do differently now? And how are you preparing your function for the future?

Speaker B: So look, um, uh, I believe if you've got a bold vision for your organization, you have to drink your own champagne or eat your own dog food, whatever, um, you like to do.

Speaker A: Champagne's probably nicer than dog food.

Speaker B: I drink, so it's sort of all right, sparkling water. So anything we do, we go first. And so, you know, when I first came in, um, we didn't, um, have offshoring inside the organization. So we went first on that training and development. Uh, you know, we went first with things like um, deal day. So uh, you know, how do you every quarter the whole function. I have about 1700 people. Most stop. Yeah. And, and just do, do um, learning together. Yeah. And then we're sort of, we learned from that and then AI Yeah. So we've, we've, we've gone early to learn so that you can then sort of say okay, what, what is it we're learning from that that you, you put back in. So I, and it's quite painful because it means like you're having to try everything and that can be like you know, performance management, how do you know? Or hitting diversity. You know, so there is a sort of if you're asking a company to do something then, then you're not going to be perfect at everything. But you need to be a doctor and you need to go first. Yeah. So that you understand it. So, so we've in lots of different ways have done that and actually it's probably moved from feeling very painful because we were the first to go with um, the compressed and that felt very painful. But I would say now the team sort of get it and actually everything is a pilot inside our own organization before we scale it. I think uh, uh the work that I think we're going to increasingly have to do is uh, work that we should have always been doing. So for me I am just so excited because I think in the old days it was easy for HR functions to get caught up in the wrong work and feel important but actually not really be having an impact on your business. And I think now if we as a HR function are not, I think we'll get sidelined because this is now like so business critical that CEOs and executive teams just can't, you know, can't deal with a HR function that isn't doing the work that they need them to do. And look, I think the work that we should have always been doing but now we have to go up a gear on um, I m mean we talk about capacity, capability and culture. So capacity, size and shape of your organization today, tomorrow the work that will be done in it, the workflows that will be done in it. Uh, you know that now is business critical work that um, we have to be running towards and be all over. I uh, think capability. I think we've all been talking about skills based organizations for uh, probably again too long. Uh and now that shift is real and so really understanding um, the tasks people are doing, the skills they need to do those tasks and what their proficiency is and what they, you know, how Fast can they learn other skills and what are those other skills that they need to learn? And how do you move people around the organization? Um, and when do you go external to hire in organizations that are going to become more productive with the tools that we've got even with growth. But we have a responsibility to our talented people to be getting them fit for the future. So that work has always been important, but now is business critical. Um, and then the culture works that we do in that ultimately culture always eats everything for breakfast. And if we don't get um, our organizations then the people in them running towards being hands on with AI and being early adopters and becoming people that see learning as what they do as part of their day job, uh, and being more agile and more creative. I mean there's a lot of change that will happen, um, that we again have talked about in our function for a long time, but now we've absolutely got to do. And what I would say is, you know, there's never been a time that's been more exciting to be in this function.

Speaker A: I know. Um, Sharon, when we, again when we spoke a couple of weeks ago, you mentioned that you've moved a significant part of the people and places organizations into a platform, platform model. Can you share a little bit about what that actually means in practice? Because I think that's something that will inspire quite a lot of listeners.

Speaker B: Yeah. So look, I think um, uh, you know at one level not much changes but everything changes. So I mean we still in Lloyds have um, HR business partners. I think they become more um, uh, you know, as you, as you go forward, um, they become more performance orchestrators, um, we have centers of expertise smaller. Then they become almost work architects. Um, and then what you might have seen as the old shared service we think about as an experience hub. You know, as we move forward over half of my function will be in um, an experience hub. So much deeper than you might have thought. And in that hub, um, and what, what's really happening there that's quite different and I think is going to evolve even further. Um, partly we do have a habit as a function to build things even if people don't need them. So customer journey managers, leaders that really have the skills of almost those that um, are building customer products. I think we're seeing from a tech point of view in the old days you might have bought SaaS products and actually now you've got capability in there that can build them. So I think there's some really interesting things that are going to be happening for software companies. And then I think the conversations that we're having with the technology function is actually some of the new tools now. Uh, you know, it's much more in configuration rather than it's hardcore technology. And so where's the line that, where's the line get drawn in that platform model where uh, the people team can actually do that work and then you let the tech team do the really sort of hardcore tech. So we're on that journey. And um, what that does is it allows you to sort of know what your um, people need deliver better end to end experience in a more efficient and effective way with more wow in it.

Speaker A: You mentioned that you've led people in places now for much of your senior career. I think it's the third time that, that you've done this. Um, I had Phil Kirchner who I think, I think you know as well, who was on the, on the podcast recently and he's a real advocate for putting the people in places part together. I'd love to hear your, your, your kind of experience of that. Why does place matter so much to, to the Chro agenda? And why should more HR leaders demand responsibility for it?

Speaker B: Yeah, and actually demand is quite funny because when I came in um, ah, Charlie, my CEO Charlie and I m was going to put it somewhere else and I said I'm not coming if you don't give it to me. You know, because I just sort of feel that strongly about it. Um, particularly at the stage of where Lloyds was at which it needed an absolute reboot. So there's a massive opportunity to use the buildings to make Lloyds feel like a fintech. And if you came into our buildings, um, I think you did, didn't you?

Speaker A: I did.

Speaker B: I mean they, they feel fantastic. Yeah, I mean they're funky. Um, so I think the, the reason you know, you get your hands on them is that you could just control massively more of the experience that your employees have. And that's the same with the sort of getting more hands on with the end to end corporate digital experience. So rather than just staying in the sort of people part of it, anything that touches all employees digitally, you should be in that. Uh, that. Yeah. You know, clearly finance still make decisions but how do you facilitate end to end? And it's the same with the buildings. Yeah. So it's a massive part of the experience. So make sure you know you've got a really big part to play in it. Um, so uh, you know, so for me that, that's why it's you know, it was a non negotiable and we brought the brand in, we brought experience in and you know, people love our building. Um, in fact, we bring other banks in and we bring government in and they're like, uh, how do you get the vibe? Um, and of course there's a formula on how you get the vibe and when you've got your hands on it, you can make sure that that formula is implemented. I think though, you also get credibility because out with, um, the tech director, I have the next biggest budget. And, and so that gives you quite a lot of flexibility, if I'm really honest. And when I came in the budget was X and now the budget is Y, which it's gone down. We've done more, we've done it faster, and we've done it better.

Speaker A: Sarah, this is a question of serious. This is one we're asking all guests on this series of the podcast. And I think it talks to a lot of what we've already talked about today. Where should HR leaders start if they want to turn AI into real impact at work?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, so look, I think you all start with yourself. So you've got to figure out how you educate yourself, uh, so that you know what you're doing because otherwise you're saying things and they're probably not the right things. Um, and then I think we talked about it's how do you get that senior team on the right journey and then how do you put the right governance, uh, in place so that you can decide what the right strategy is? So I think you've got to do, you've got, you've got to do that if you really want to, um, figure out what's the right way forward.

Speaker A: Yeah, very good. So let's look ahead. Actually, I did look back on the questions that I asked you on that episode all the way back in 2019. Yeah, let's look ahead seven years and I won't hold you to this. So if we go pitch forward seven years, so that's what's at 2033. What do you think the world of work and the role of the Chro will look like?

Speaker B: Yeah, so look, the first thing is like, who knows? Yes, that's the right answer. Yeah, yeah, I've got a clue. Anyone that says they have are, uh, um, fibbing. Um, but look, um, I think the world, um, that we're going to operate in is highly likely to stay as if not become more uncertain. And so, you know, whatever we're doing, we have to build an organization that is Going to be able to deal with these Black Swarm events almost happening every year. And they used to happen every 10 years and I think now, you know, and how do you build the culture, the skills, uh, the resilience that our organizations are going to, um, are going to be able to do that. I was with Google and they talked about three things that really sort of captured my imagination. And they, they talked about the world's going to become hyper personalized, hyper productive and hyper creative. Yeah. So, you know, inside organizations, um, you know, we are just going to have the tools to be able to, you know, have the build products for one and our uh, people are going to be augmented to be highly productive. But the role of humans, at least that we can see right now, is how do we really bring that creativity? Because I think we can all see with AI, it's scraping what is known and presents what we know as opposed to what we haven't thought about yet. Um, now that might change, but sitting here today, we will still bring the creativity. Um, and so, um, how do we build, build a workforce that does that? Ah, and look, I think that the role of hr, you know, we need to be thinking we are reinventing, um, organizations and the ways of working in them. You know, we are disrupting ourselves and disrupting our organizations for the good of our investors and customers and people and communities. Yeah, we talk, we talked about as well, um, we're going to have to be massively, much more in workflows than we have been and figuring out talent that can really work in this new way. How do we grow, keep, find and make them want to come and work in our organization to a much higher degree than um, you know, the sort of skills war that we talked about in the 90s. It just sort of really feels like, at least for a few years until it gets scaled, you know, what stays human. How do we make sure the ethics of this journey, ah, are the ones that we would be proud of, um, as we look back, you know, um, uh, on the time that we have doing the work that we do, uh, you know, will we create the organizations that we can be proud of with people working in them, um, in a way that is fulfilling and is having a positive impact on society. And I think, you know, you can see all the different views on that, that and sometimes like, you know, people perhaps are too negative and how do we um, create opportunities and a positive way through that. And I think, you know, some of the skills that we have and the thought processes we have, um, could actually create different futures for our people and for our organizations.

Speaker A: No, totally agree. And you know, it's so important that, you know, without sounding cliched, it's so important that we don't forget the horror, what the HNHR stands for and the P in People and places or the first P in People and places stands for as well. Sharon, thanks so much for being a, uh, guest on the Digital HR Leaders podcast again. So episode one, and this will probably be about episode 300 and something, I think, so you'll definitely get an invite back. Sharon, thanks so much.

Speaker B: All right, no, a real pleasure. You take care.

Speaker A: Thank you again, Sharon, for joining me today. It really was an illumination, illuminating conversation and one I think that will resonate with listeners who are in the middle of their own transformation journeys right now. For those of you that are listening, I'm curious, what stood out for you the most from today's episode? Was it Sharon's three roles framework? The storyteller, the tough lover, the Disruptor? The way Lloyds is approaching AI governance? Or just the reminder that transformation at scale is possible if you're willing to make the tough calls? Whatever it was, Find my link LinkedIn post about this episode and let me know in the comments. I read every single one and the conversations that happen there often add to the ones we have on the show. And if you think a colleague or friend would get something out of this episode, please do share it with them. It really does help us bring more of these conversations to HR professionals across the world. And one last thing before we go. For those who would like to keep up with what we're working on at insight222, follow us on LinkedIn or head to to insight222.com you can also sign up for our bi weekly newsletter, uh, @myhrfuture.com to get the latest thinking on HR, people, analytics and everything shaping our field. Right. That's us for this episode. Thanks for listening and we'll be back next week with another episode of the Digital HR Leaders Podcast. Until then, take care and stay well.