#148 The Real Reason You Keep Self-Sabotaging | Hema Patel

Speaker A: We know that 200 school children a year die from suicide. If we're measuring emotional intelligence and we want that to have an outcome, does that mean that there's going to be stronger communities? Does that mean that instead of losing 200 schoolchildren in the UK a year to suicide, that that number goes down? Is that not a measure? Trauma can be what happened to you. So abuse, abandonment, bullying, discrimination, homelessness, poverty, violence. Trauma is also what didn't happen for you. Anxiety is fear of something that hasn't happened yet. So the subconscious is responsible for 85 to 95% of our day to day thoughts, habits and actions. Reframing thoughts can become exhausting because we have 50,000 to 80,000 thoughts a day. Guess what percentage of those thoughts are not true? I lost my cousin to suicide. He was 27 years old, a final year med student. I experienced a lot of guilt after he died, thinking, what else could I have done differently? What didn't I see? Only 4% of healthcare professionals are trained in suicide prevention. The numbers in 2024 in England and Wales of people dying from suicide are the highest since 1999. My ABC of suicide is that what

Speaker B: do you hope people feel after listening to this conversation?

Speaker A: That change is possible.

Speaker B: I'm on a mission to help the world to see success differently. Sharing the stories of our guests, I hope to inspire those that listen. This is the Different Hats podcast produced by H2 Productions. Hope you can join us on this journey. Need a new van?

Speaker A: Why not pop down to River Vale in Brighton?

Speaker B: Uh, explore our range of new and used vans, lovingly prepared and ready to work just as hard as you do. River Vale, making motoring manageable. Okay, today's conversation is about visibility. Not visibility in the social media sense, but emotional visibility. Because so many people spend their lives hiding, hiding their emotions, hiding their truth, hiding their voice, performing versions of themselves that feel safe enough to survive. And somewhere along the way, many of us learned, um, it isn't safe to be fully seen. Today's guest is the amazing Hema Patel, rtt, hypnotherapist, coach and suicide prevention advocate, whose own story is rooted in trauma, grief, reinvention and purpose. Hey, man. In this episode we're going to explore a lot a few things down here. I want to, I want to talk about childhood trauma and how that shapes the way we show up in the world. Subconscious, um, beliefs behind perfectionism, procrastination and self sabotage. Why many people don't actually fear failure, but fear success, which is something I' really obviously this is Rooted in how, uh, we define success and what it means. But certainly that fear of success. I'm really intrigued to find out a bit more about that, um, the connection between visibility, shame and mental health. Um, I guess I would like to touch on obviously how losing your cousin to suicide transformed, um, your mission, I guess, um, while suicide prevention is everyone's business. I know you've mentioned that before. Rose has been on a podcast. We spoke about that as well. So definitely want to touch on that. And what become and purpose becomes bigger than your fear. This conversation is about healing, about authenticity, emotional safety, and finally learning to take us up space in your own life. So, um, there's a couple of. There's a big question I don't necessarily want you to answer now, but just something to sort of think about, um, over the course of the episode, which is what happens to a person, I guess also society when fear keeps us silent, disconnected and hiding from who we really are. Just something I want to maybe think about. And I guess how, how many people are living smaller lives than they were meant to, I guess because. Because somewhere along the way they've learned it wasn't safe to be seen. And I guess I know you've spoke about it before, so I'm really, again, I'm keen to just as we go through the conversation, we have them things sort of in mind. But, um, Heman Patel, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker A: It is so good to be here. Um, and yeah, I'm really excited to dive into these topics because they're all like, each topic individually is so interesting and the fact that we're going to be weaving through them. Yeah, I'm looking forward to this.

Speaker B: Be amazing. Um, well, look, we're going to start, we're going to kick off where we always do. I just want to, I guess, land. Where are you today, coming in this season of your life with our check in as we do, we kick off every episode. So. Emma, you all right, mate?

Speaker A: I'm all right, yeah. Um, I'm good. I was like a little bit rattled just before I came here, um, because I'd applied to do a TED Talk and I didn't get in. And so that kind of was like, oh, you know, because that always, you know, you put in an application, you fill in the forms and. And then there's that thing of like, oh, will I be chosen? And the really good news is because I won't be doing that, Ted. I'm going to be sharing what I was planning to share in that TED Talk here today. So it's actually worked out really well. So I'm actually really glad that I saw that email just before I came here today.

Speaker B: Amazing. Well, uh, we're privileged to uh, obviously have you on and, and for you to be able to share your, your wisdom and knowledge and I know it's going to be, it's going to be amazing but I guess just generally like ah, where you are in life at the moment, this sort of season in life, things overall good, in a good place, a good space.

Speaker A: I feel that I am um, on the cusp of bigger things and I have done lots of jobs in my time, worked in different industries, I've worked in corporate, I've worked for a charity. I now do things on my own. And so I feel like I'm just getting started. Weirdly enough, at the age of 50, I feel like I'm just getting started.

Speaker B: I love that. I really resonate with that as well. I think uh, I've, I've been saying for. I think it's a start of every year or go through. I feel like I'm on the cusp, I'm going to. And, and it feels this, this year just feels so different again aligned with a lot of the things we're talking about where like uh, what's leading me at the moment is purpose as opposed to uh. I've mentioned it a few times on a podcast where you, you feel like running business. For 17 years I have pushing, pushing, pushing, driving drum. Whereas I feel like I'm being pulled. Yeah, I feel like just that difference between push and pull. Motivation. Um, the motivation is something bigger than me that uh. And I know you mentioned about that sort of purpose is. And is that where you feel like you've landed with that purpose and that's where you're starting?

Speaker A: I think that my purpose is continuously evolving. I see purpose in two ways actually. Like our big overarching mission. And so I wake up each morning with three words. Help healers rise. Because people and the planet right now need a lot of healing. And so it's about helping people step into their own gifts and their own magic and share that with the world. The other way that I see purpose is our everyday purpose. The interactions that we have with a shop assistant, the bus driver. And it's about being able to be present. And when you're fully present, that's everyday purpose. And when you are working on your big mission, you know, that's like the big like legacy thing. And for me you mentioned briefly in the intro, it's about making your Purpose bigger than your fears. And I have previously felt a lot of fear of being judged or trolled or misunderstood. And I feel like I'm stepping into the phase and era of my life where I actually don't care. I don't care if I'm judged. I know that I'm judging. It's human nature to judge. So we're all being judged all the time. We judge ourselves. Other people judge us. Um, I've been trolled a couple of times on LinkedIn. It's happened. I'm still here. And, um, I feel that quite often I either don't articulate myself in the way that I'd prefer to and I get misunderstood, or I articulate in a way that I think is easy to understand and then someone else still misunderstands. And so then it's about relinquishing responsibility of saying, well, I can't always predict that people will understand me. I'm responsible for how I express myself and how I articulate, and then the rest is over to them and being comfortable with the fact that there will be people out there who are committed to misunderstanding you. And once you know that, then you can just be yourself.

Speaker B: That's really fascinating. What would you say then to put. Because someone potentially, uh, I guess I'm speaking on my behalf as well. But maybe some listeners will resonate like if you're. When you're a people pleaser, which I've been majority of my life, I went through a phase of thinking I want everyone to like me. So I wouldn't necessarily always speak my truth or be my true authentic self because I thought I've got to be like this because I want people to like me. I felt like I'd really started to let go of that. Like you've mentioned, where you go, I don't really care what other people. I'm going to say what I think and I don't really care what other people think. But things happened recently where I realized I. It took me right back to Megan, oh, I've upset someone. I don't want to upset them. What, what advice do you get? Because you listen to you talk, that seems like you let go of that and you're able to go, I'm not. But what advice would you give someone to be able to just completely let go of that?

Speaker A: So first of all, I want to say people pleasing is really, really natural. And we almost have to people please in order to get our needs met. As children, we are wholly and entirely dependent on other people. So if we didn't please our primary caregivers. We might not get food, we might not get shelter, we might not get clothing. So actually people pleasing is an inherent like survival mechanism. And um, people pleasing can also be rooted in a worthiness wound. As uh, in I don't feel worthy and deserving unless I do something for someone else or unless someone needs me for someone else. And so we derive our sense of worth by what we do for others. And when we come to the realization that we are worthy and deserving just by virtue of being alive, then again it's, I don't need to please someone else in order for good things to happen to me. I can just lean into trust and know that I am worthy and deserving of goodness regardless of if I overwork or if I over perform.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's hit home quite a lot, I think. Um, that's so fascinating because I want to. How do people get to that stage of that, that, that I really resonate with that the feeling of going, if I'm doing something, especially if I'm doing something for other people, then yeah, that's where my self worth lands. How do we, what stops us from feeling that self? Like just like you said, how you articulate that brilliantly there about uh, just me being here, just my presence is enough. How do we, how can we get to that stage? Is it what's, what's holding people back from getting to that stage?

Speaker A: I guess the first thing that I would invite anyone to do in this situation, and I've advised clients with this as well in the past, is find a photo of you as a baby or as a toddler. And that baby or toddler would cry and know that it would get some milk or it would get its nappy changed. And that baby didn't think, am I worthy of getting milk? It just cried and expected that its needs would be met. And it's remembering that we are. That baby will be an older grown up version. Um, yet we second guess and overthink as to whether we're worthy enough for our needs to be met. We're still that same person. And um, so it's. Yeah. Find that picture of you as a baby and know, yeah, you are worthy that baby. You wouldn't deny a baby getting its nappy changed or deny it having some milk. So why do we deny ourselves of our needs?

Speaker B: And it is. And is it that? Because it's got to be a shift. Isn't there somewhere where uh, is it that something happens or whether it be in our childhood or Whatever. But our society gets hold of this. Something happens, doesn't it? Where all of us forget that person and we feel that we have to. Have to do things to be. To gain people's that self worth. I guess like that's. And is that, is that different for everyone in that. That period of time? And because we sort of mentioned. I think, I guess people say about childhood trauma and yet I look back and think I feel like I uh, had any trauma. I was loved unconditionally growing up. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I still. The work I've started to do on myself, I still recognize that there's things that happened in childhood that it's. And even if it's just my own narrative, like where does that narrative come from? Why does that like in people's lives that we know and we. But we hold on to that narrative more so than we do the other one. Why, why is that?

Speaker A: Two great points there. Ah, yes, we do forget how worthy and deserving we are. And I believe a lot of the human experience and our life journeys, it's about remembering. A lot of um, the things that science is now catching up with is that it's about remembering who we are, remembering what we're made of, like remembering why we came here. And so much of the healing journey is a remembrance. It's about unlearning things that no longer serve us, relearning things that do, and then remembering the core and essence of who we are. So I'm really glad that you mentioned the word forget because yes, we do forget. And it is about remembering. The other thing is trauma and childhood trauma. And I get this frequently people say to me because I will say, oh yeah, the root cause and reason for, you know, self sabotage patterns, perfectionism, people pleasing, procrastination, unhealed trauma, grief and loss usually in childhood. And people will say to me, but I didn't have a traumatic childhood. Like I had a really good childhood. And you know, everything in my family was like I was surrounded by people who loved me. Me, you know, always had a roof over my head, there's always food on the table. Like I don't think I had a traumatic childhood. And there is a misconception that trauma is, you know, something that happened on the battlefield, something that happened as a result of a crime. And my definition of trauma is yes, trauma can be what happened to you. So abuse, abandonment, bullying, discrimination, homelessness, poverty, violence. Trauma is also what didn't happen for you. Not feeling safe, not feeling seen m. Not feeling heard, not feeling understood. Not feeling included, not feeling accepted, and not feeling loved.

Speaker B: It's mad when you reframe it like that. That's weird. Yeah, it's lots of coming up for me. It's strange like. Yeah, like, uh, when you reframe it like that is like, uh, I can see. You can see that. And, and not all of those things. Right. Some just. You pick out some of those things. Whether it's that not being seen or not being heard, whatever that is, or your. Yeah. Your voice not being heard. I guess you've got to feel like you've got something to say. But for whatever those narratives keep over planning it. Over planning. But do you. Do you believe everyone has the ability to. We all have all got the ability and the skill set to be able to unlock, um, that. And change that narrative 100%. Really.

Speaker A: I believe that we have all experienced trauma and that we all have coping mechanisms. Coping mechanisms could be things that we overdo, overeat, overindulge in. Drink, drugs, shopping, gambling, exercise, um, overworking, and then things that we underdo. So under eating, underworking, also known as procrastination. So we all have trauma, we've all experienced trauma, we've all got coping mechanisms, and we all have the ability to process trauma, release the wounds that are, uh, attached to those experiences, and reprogram the beliefs that were attached to those experiences. So what happens is we have experiences, we attach meaning to those experiences, and then that forms a belief and those beliefs just loop like vinyl, um, on a record until we change it. And so I see the work that I do is helping people take the needle off the record, taking off that vinyl, and then playing a new groove. So yes, it's entirely possible. Um, and I've worked with clients in their 50s and 60s who have carried certain feelings, emotions, beliefs, behaviors, habits, coping mechanisms for, um, you know, 30, 40, 50 years. And I've helped them release it. And so I know that it's possible because I've witnessed it.

Speaker B: What's that feeling like for you? Like, that must just be such an amazing gift to be able to give people because, uh, uh, the more I'm working in this space and the more have these types of conversations, the amount of people that are carrying so much, they've suppressed so much. And I wonder why is it as a society that. Is it because we're not given the skills at a, uh, young age to, to speak about how we really feel our emotions and um, like that there's not that. Again, you talked about that, uh, space being created for where you, you feel safe to be able to share your emotions or share your feelings. And I think again, I know we spoke about before about, about the stuff where I'm trying to do in schools around emotional literacy, right? I'm trying to give. What, what, what does the world look like if kids are given those skills at, ah, a young age? And, but also teachers, parents are also given all of those skills to be able to create more of those environments. Surely, surely that then less people are carrying so much for, for such a long period of time. Huh?

Speaker A: Dr. Gabor Mate said that 80% of people who have autoimmune conditions are women. And the root of that is blocked self expression. And so first of all, there's the gift of being able to speak about our emotions and how different experiences have made us feel and the imprint that that has left on us. Uh, and when I say imprint, if you think of like a child's brain, like Plasticine and piece of Lego comes along, traumatic event, that piece of Lego may be long gone, but the imprint has remained. And so we are all walking around with these imprints of things that have happened to us that we've never been able to process or smooth over. And so imagine if we all had the, uh, ability and the vocabulary to process and smooth over those things as they happened as opposed to those imprints being left there for years and years and they're just running the show in the background. Wow.

Speaker B: Um, uh, and how young, where do we start? How young could we start with, with teaching that, that those type of skills, do you think?

Speaker A: One, it is about enabling young people to have the language, to be able to talk about emotions beyond just happy, angry and sad. And to be able to say, you know, they felt disappointed, they felt let down, they felt left out. To be able to express, you know, fear, I mean, fear is, is a big one because I say to people, I delivered a talk in a school a couple of months back, anxiety is fear of something that hasn't happened yet. And so lots of people will say, oh, my anxiety is playing up. When you say something is like mine, you're claiming it, you're holding onto it. And by saying my anxiety is playing up, we're bypassing what the actual fear is. So it's like rather than saying my anxiety is playing up, can I ask myself, what am I fearful of? What is the outcome that I'm fearing will happen because of this course of action? Let's name it. And so when we start naming the fear, okay, I fear that if I do this I'll get trolled on the Internet if I fear, uh, if I do you know something else, I'll be rejected by my family. So let's name the fear rather than just using the broad brush of anxiety. And then what tends to happen is things will happen to us. We'll feel a certain way. We'll have big feelings that other people can't cope with, and they'll make us feel bad for having those feelings. So as much as it is about empowering and enabling young people to have the language to name their feelings, to name their fears, the bigger piece of work, it's about the adults modeling that it is safe for that child to express their feelings and to name their fears. Because what happens is because adults have not they themselves felt safe to express, they are often unable to handle when a child has big feelings. And so what they'll do tend to do is try and quash that child's big feelings and quieten them, which then leaves the child feeling unheard, unseen, leaves the child feeling invalidated, that their big feelings have no place here. And so which leads them to push down their feelings. So what the bigger piece of work is all of us as adults is being comfortable with other people expressing big feelings. Being comfortable if someone cries in front of us rather than saying, oh, cry or there's, there's nothing to cry about or I'll, we're still. I'll give you something to cry about. I think we've all heard that one when we've grown up, um, and it's because the adult in the room didn't feel comfortable with big feelings. And so then they push the child down and they don't model what it's like to be seen and heard and to uh, be safe in expressing feelings because they, they never experienced that themselves. So the adults hadn't learned it. So therefore they can't pass it on.

Speaker B: Listen to you talk. It makes me think actually that you've had a bigger piece of work. Isn't that because do I think kids potentially have these, like you even mentioned, right, from babies, right? We cry and we, we get looked after and then we get to a point where I guess again, there's not a need, right? So if someone's crying, but, uh, there's not a need for me to feed them right now like it was when I was a baby. You tend to go, what are you crying for? What's that about? But again, it. So they start to learn from our learned behavior. And this is where the role modeling side of It. I wonder whether the bigger piece of work is teaching the parents. Like, there's no rule book to being a parent and everyone's different. Right. But is there. Is there something that we. Programs or something that's in place to teach this to emotional literacy to adults?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah. This is where the biggest. Because one of the things we've done in the program was going, how do we engage? We went in and spoke to the teachers first. Then after session one, we had the parents in to speak to them and try. And it was because we can give all these skills to the kids. Right. But they're going to go into an environment where. And not that the parents are necessarily doing anything wrong, it's just their learned behavior. And this is where the. And it's all we're doing. Like you said back to your brilliant analogy around the. The record. Right. Uh, it's just a loop going round and round. And that's what needs to be broken, isn't it? It's got to be. It's got to be a whole societal, holistic change around emotional skills. Emotional literacy has got to be learned at school. It's got to be taught in schools as well as it's got to be taught to adults.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Um, and I know we'll be coming onto it at some point as well in our conversation because I know that suicide prevention is going to be taught in some schools, um, starting from September. And goes back to the point, we need adults and children all on the same page, because otherwise, as you said, the children will come home or in other environments.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker A: And it's like, you know, it's like when I went home and said, can you help me with long division? And my parents were like, oh, yeah, we haven't done that in 20 years. I don't really know. And it's like. But I need help with it. So it's. Yeah, we all need to be on the same page.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And it does. The more I, uh, listen to you talking, the more I'm starting to work in this. But this is where I see the. And even for me, like, and this is somewhat. I'd like to think, uh, this whole journey, I've been the last, especially the last year, like, unlocking some stuff for me, not thinking I was really emotionally aware and really, like, I'm quite advanced and I'll be a good role model for. But actually I didn't realize how much emotion I'd suppressed, um, for so long because I didn't have the language or, or the skills to be able to then process it and then articulate it. So actually what I am doing then instead of, well, I'm um, I'm um, I may be telling my kids what I think is the right thing, but I'm not role modeling that as well. And that's the, there's the balance as well isn't it? Between, between saying something but actually then role modeling it as well.

Speaker A: And also accepting that we're human and that we're all going to make mistakes and that we're all going to blow up at some point and get angry and accepting that anger is okay, um, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. Um, and being able to repair, I think that's the fundamental skill as well as emotional literacy is how do we repair when we haven't gotten it right? How do we say to a child actually when I shouted at you, I wasn't being my best self and I wasn't listening to you and can we have this conversation again? Can we have this conversation in 5 minutes time when I, I've had some chance to calm down, maybe go for a walk and um, being honest enough to say I am human, I didn't get it right. You deserve better. What can we do to repair and connect? Because fundamentally all of us have a need to belong and connect. And um, so when there are blow ups actually we can find that we end up arguing less about the topic and more about the fact that we're both experiencing this isolation and we're fearing what does that mean for our future connection. And so if we can bring it back to say, my long term goal is to still be connected with you, but I just need a bit of time to work through the big feelings that I'm having about the topic so that when we come together to converse about it, I'm bringing my best self to the conversation and not my I'm still in the middle of raging self.

Speaker B: And I guess that can only come potentially from adults as well as self awareness. Right? We've got to be self aware enough to be able to accept that. And, and actually I said have that level of communication and I have that I've learned over the period I've learned to, to say to the K, yeah, I shouldn't have shouted then. That was, I didn't deal with that in the right way and I don't, I definitely don't get it right all the time but I'm trying to learn that that's okay to do that. And, and, and, and they're so Much and they can accept and they can understand and we. And I think it's given them that understanding that uh. One, it's okay to make mistakes, put our hand up and, and acknowledge it, take ownership of it, express it and then. And it just creates again. For me it's the, the key is I guess trying to create spaces, safe spaces for conversation, connect where you can connect. Right. I think that's the, that's what I'm taking from that. I think.

Speaker A: And you made the great point about role modeling that I've made a mistake and I'm admitting and acknowledging my mistake. And um, what that does is that is helping the child to see, yes, it's okay to make mistakes, it's okay to fail. I don't have to be perfect because if they see you doing that, then you've made it like it's acceptable to not get things right all the time. Um, it's when we kind of almost pretend or mask that everything that I say and do is perfect, but everything you say and do is not, then they will start thinking, oh, oh, there's something wrong with me and I have to get this right otherwise I'll be a failure. And we're not allowed to fail in this household. Whereas if you can model not getting things right and acknowledging it and life's still going on afterwards. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's okay. You spilled that life will still go on. You know you didn't get that mark in an exam. Test. It's okay. Life still goes on. So the more we can model that as adults of yeah, I messed up and life still goes on. The, the more safe an environment we make it for the children around us.

Speaker B: You mentioned there as well about I guess like uh, that narrative around failure and mistakes and like um, trying to refine that. So it leads me on I guess to the, the big question I ask everyone about success. Right where that you mentioned even test and, and you know my kids are just start. As we're recording this, they're just starting their SATs this week which I'm like a bit frustra that that's another topic where we'll get on to that. But I just, I'm really keen to. I guess from your perspective. What, what, what does success mean to you? How do you define it? What does it mean?

Speaker A: Great question. And recently I came up with my own definition of success because I, one of the reasons I specialize in things like helping people release long held self sabotage patterns is because I've been the biggest self saboteur. Myself. And so we all teach, um, and I was really looking at, okay, in the last year, what made some months really good and some months not so good? What were the patterns? Where do I need to have more awareness and like, you know, put like a, uh, microscope and see what's going on? And so the definition that I came up with for success is success equals skills, strategy, systems, and subconscious. So we can have the skills to do what we need to do. The certifications, the experience, the knowledge, the reps. We can have the strategy. Maybe we're receiving business coaching or mentoring. We've got a plan so we know what needs to be done. Unless we have the subconscious on board, we won't put in the systems that will make that strategy happen, despite having all the skills in the world. And so the subconscious is responsible for 85 to 95% of our day to day thoughts, habits and actions. That loop, that groove, those imprints. And so our conscious mind is only responsible for 5 to 15% of our thoughts, habits and actions. So when we have things like New Year's resolutions, it's no surprise that by February most of us have fallen off is because we're relying on, on willpower, motivation, and pushing through which all come from the conscious mind. And so the work that I do by changing the record, changing the vinyl, changing the subconscious patterns and tracks, that's where, uh, change becomes so much easier and more possible. Because rather than one of the things that you'll hear people talk about a lot, rather than reframing thoughts, like reframing from a negative thought to a positive thought, um, reframing thoughts can become exhausting because we have 50,000 to 80,000 thoughts a day. These are figures from Michigan State University. Guess what percentage of those thoughts are not true? Um, 80%. Guess what percentage are repeated from the previous day.

Speaker B: 80%.

Speaker A: 90%. So 80% of the thoughts that we have, of the 50,000 to 80,000 thoughts a day that we have, 80% of those are false. So all those times that we're thinking, oh, I can't do this, I'll never be able to do that. I, um, won't make that happen. I'm not good enough for that. Uh, or I shouldn't even try that, or it's not worth me, it's just false. And then, like Groundhog Day, we say the same thing the next day.

Speaker B: Why is it that, why is it that, uh, our brain, why is it that we're wired like that? What is it? Is it, I'm just thinking, is it Society. Is it the messages that we get from when we're children? Is it the message we get from social media? Is it from the tv? But what. Why is it that our, uh, subconscious is wired that way? M.

Speaker A: Yes, to all of the above. So if we think about what happens in school, we go to school, and rather than just being able to go to the toilet, we have to put our hand up and ask to go to the toilet. So immediately we're told, oh, your bodily functions are a bit inconvenient. Then we have to learn things, and then we get compared to other children. So immediately we are receiving messages that you're not good enough, that what you produce isn't good enough, that how you speak isn't good enough, how you show up isn't good enough. Because there's that constant comparison and judgment of, oh, their handwriting is better. Oh, they're learning that faster. Oh, they got 85% and you got 82%. So it's drilled into us by the education system that you are not good enough. Because the education system is designed to produce workers for factories. Because that's when the main education system came about. In the Victorian era. They needed our, uh, parents to work in the factory, so they needed to do something with the kids during the day. And so we were sent to school. So the education system is designed to produce workers who are obedient. And people are much more obedient if they don't feel good enough. So that programming and conditioning of making us feel not good enough is there from school. Um, then what was the other place that you mentioned? Oh, from media and TV and society and things like that. And again, we are conditioned by what we see on tv, by programs, because it's called a program because it's programming you. And so we are receiving messages from TV programs, from the news that you are not safe, the world is not a safe place, that unless you have those clothes or that hair or that car or those shoes, that you're not good enough. And again, it's designed to make us feel not good enough. Because when we feel not good enough, we buy more, we consume more. So if we feel rubbish about ourselves, then we might go and buy that dress or that makeup or that watch or that car to make us feel good about ourselves. So actually, yes, you're right. All of the systems are designed to make us feel not good enough. Because if we felt good enough, we wouldn't be consumers.

Speaker B: Wow. I mean, wow. So, so, so that's the. That. That's the society that we're that we're living in. So we're living in this thing where constantly 80 of those, the message taps into our, uh, subconscious that makes us believe things that are not true. Is it. We've got a magic. Well, I'm going to make you Prime Minister tomorrow. We've got a magic one. You're going to go in and you're going to go. But we're going to change things. What do we, how do we change, how do we start to change that narrative? Where do we start? Is it education? Is it media? Is it all of them? Things like, where would you start to try and change them?

Speaker A: So. In education, the ideal, and I'm speaking as someone who used to be a secondary school teacher and um, now having reflected upon what I was taught about behavior management and exams and everything, then I can see now that I was part of that system of making children not feel good enough. I didn't know it at the time. I thought I was inspiring and encouraging, but, but actually I was part of a system. Um, an ideal education scenario is that children are given the tools and the encouragement to explore what their unique skills, gifts, talents are. So, and I, I, yeah, I've done, I've done this exercise with adults. I would love this exercise to be done with children in schools.

Speaker B: What age, at what age would you start at?

Speaker A: Um, it can be at any age, even in primary school. So you've probably heard of Icky Guy and Icky Guy is a Venn diagram. Four circles. The intersection is purpose, your reason for being ikigai. And so the first circle is what are you good at? Second circle is what do you love to do? Third circle, what does the world need? And the fourth circle is what can you be paid for? And actually we can be paid for lots of things. Like people are being paid now for skills and jobs that didn't exist 10 or 20 years ago. So the possibilities are limitless. And so if we were able to find what each child was really good at, ah, and what they loved, because they may be the same thing or maybe different. I, um, was really good at maths. Did I love it? Not so much, but I just happened to be very good at it. Um, and yeah, helping children find their purpose. And if everyone, like my ideal world scenario is that every single human being is living on purpose, with purpose, and people would say, oh, but then the streets wouldn't get cleaned or this wouldn't happen or that wouldn't happen. Actually there's a lot of people who do really enjoy cleaning and organizing so if those people were cleaning and organizing rather than like, say, working an office job that they hated, they'd be able to do that. You know, I see loads of videos about like, home organizers and all of. All of this thing. So imagine if everyone lived on purpose, with purpose, then we would, you know, there'd be so much art, there'd be so much organization, there'd be so much structure, there'd be community. Because when you speak to people, lots of people will say, oh, yeah, if I didn't have to pay my mortgage, I'd be doing this. And whatever they say is usually something that's really valuable, but they just haven't given themselves or had the opportunity to explore that because they're in, you know, having to pay bills. So education, it'd be all about finding purpose. Everyone living on purpose, with purpose. And rather than, um, what we're told is, right, these are the things that you're good at. Ah, but these are the things that you're not good at. So we need to improve on your areas of weakness and we need to develop those. Imagine if everyone was. Whether you were at school or in the workplace, it's like, right, these are the things that you're good at. Ah, how do you get to become great at? Ah, that thing? Rather than spending time, money courses on, let's develop your weaknesses, okay, we'll delegate that part of your job to somebody else. Let's take the bit that you're good at and make you amazing at it. And so then everyone would be playing on their A game. It's like sports, you know, you wouldn't play a goalkeeper and expect him to have a target for scoring a number of goals each season. You'd play people. Actually, whilst I've said that, I can think of a few exceptions. But on the whole, you play people in their best position. And so if that works for sports team, imagine if every single human being on this planet was playing in their best position. Everything would get done and everyone would be happy doing it.

Speaker B: I and not to go down obviously, a conspiracy theory route at all, but is it. Is it the problem that. That that's not what we're doing in schools, that's not what we're doing in society because we live in a capitalist consumer society and the powers that be want us to keep getting that message that we're questioning ourselves all the time. M. We're not enough. So we've got to go out and spend more money. And it keeps going back into the system.

Speaker A: Y. Yeah, the system is Working exactly as intended as, uh, in the billionaires, the big brands, they get richer and richer and richer and our quality of life goes down and our level of satisfaction goes down. And when people say, oh, there's a mental health crisis in my head, I'm like, there's an unequal distribution of wealth crisis. Let's talk about what the actual real crisis is, because there are more people when I was growing up who are struggling to put food on the table, who are struggling to pay their rent. And so when you are struggling to survive, obviously you're not going to feel great. And so when, uh, we. And I'm really glad that you mentioned emotional literacy because a lot of the time when people talk about mental health, what they actually mean is emotional health. I don't feel good. I define it as mental clarity is our abyss, our ability to make decisions, um, clearly. And emotional capacity is our ability to hold multiple emotions at the same time. Joy, pain, the full richness of this experience that we call life. And then there's physical health. So mental clarity, emotional capacity and physical health, all of those interplay with each other. So if your physical health isn't great, you're not going to feel great. When you don't feel great, then you don't always make the best decisions. Um, and I feel like I've just gone off on a complete tangent. But yes, it's about the, the big brands. For them to continue, they need the education system for us all to be workers and for us all to not feel happy and not feel good so that we consume more so that they get bigger. And we kept, we are kept at a certain level.

Speaker B: There's so much dead for me to. I, I think that uh, I, I wrote a poem today, uh, which I shared online and for the kids really for as they're starting their sets this week and it was just called your you are enough. And, and that was the thing. And I put that out earlier today and, and because this is the message, I'm um. Even now like the twins, they're 10. And I saw like, uh, they said some of their friends, I said even see it in them like up feeling a little bit anxious. They're obviously the same age, but complete opposites. So one's really academic, the other one not so much. And the one that's not so much is looking and going. I know she's got a really good sort of mate. She's just comparing herself to her sister. And then they've talked to me about that. Some of their friends are really nervous about. They're 10.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And 11 years old.

Speaker A: Pressure.

Speaker B: The pressure on them all and. But men, I'd be interested to get your take on this because me and Kelly was having a conversation. My wife was having a conversation about it. But we do, um. There are benefits to testing people because we can get an outcome. And there are benefits because actually you're putting them under maybe an element of pressure that will suit of when they go into the work environment and they can demonstrate those skills and stuff like that. And I'm still up. Part of the problem for me is that we're fixated. We're fixated on an outcome. We're fixating on measuring something. We've got to measure. We've got to measure something because there's got to be an outcome. Like what came back to circling right back to some of the things you sort of said at the start about me just being. And my just being here. My presence without doing. Just my presence is enough. Surely that narrative has got to play into somewhere. But I will come out with a question. There's so many things going around my head because it's so fascinating. But, uh, I guess part of the situation is. And um, I'm just keen to get your take on all of what I'm rambling on about. But I guess just to be a. Knowing my presence is enough is okay. What I'm really conscious of the, the narrative I'm sharing is not to go. We just want to create people that don't do anything. Uh, the complete opposite to that. And it leans into what you said about what does it mean if we get people to go, this is what I'm good at, what I love, and I'm going to become great at that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Then you, you light up every day and you go and do that thing and then you become an expert in that and, and, and then you feel good and there's all, all of them. Things play in. Right. Um, but where does the.

Speaker A: What.

Speaker B: How do we even start to change that? Because people do still for some reason somehow we wanna. We feel there's a necessity to test or I think how do we change that narrative? I guess. Sorry. So many things I just blurted out my mouth with no real question.

Speaker A: But so the first thing I want to say, and I don't know who said it originally, is we don't judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree. And so what we're doing in the school and education system is judging fishes by their ability to climb trees because some will be able to climb trees and some won't. And it's about, it really is about. And we know when I worked in industry and it was all about key performance indicators and critical success factors. Factors. And everything was on a spreadsheet and, and everything was measured. And the thing that got drilled into us is you get what you measure. What if we measured well being? What if we measured physical health? What if we measured kindness? What if we measured collaboration? Because isn't it interesting that all the skills that we need as an entrepreneur, the ability to communicate, the ability to collaborate, the ability to take risks and then bounce back if it doesn't go according to plan and then come up with a plan B, C, D and keep going regardless, those are the things that aren't taught in schools. It's like, you've got to do this by yourself, you've got to learn this by yourself. And then you've got to do this test by yourself. And then the minute you go into industry, right, you're part of this project team and you're going to be doing this and they're going to be doing that and you need to work together. So school is designed to create workers. But imagine if there was a different education system that created entrepreneurs and everyone was an entrepreneur and everyone got to make their thing happen. And by virtue of that, some people will want to be the leader and the ideas generator and some people will want to be the executor, the implementer, the doer. Um, and so I'm not saying, you know, and, and I'm really glad that you picked up on the nuance of that. Yes, it's about being. And it's not saying that we all just need to like, just sit on a sofa and never move and not do anything. But imagine if everyone had the permission and the resources to, to pursue the things that they were interested in, the things that they were good at and then turn them into great. So,

Speaker B: yeah, and potentially, potentially with, you know, the advancements in AI and where, where we're getting to, is there not more of an opportunity now? Is there not more of an opportunity? Because like, uh, again, you mentioned that the kids come home even at 10 and 11, and they're asking me to help them with their math zone work, which I'm going, absolutely not. I haven't got a clue how I was going. But so, but I'm looking at the things that they're teaching there and can. How relevant is that going to be in today's society? Right. Uh, relevant. Is that going to be so I'm going, what does it look like if we, we look at all the things that ultimately AI is going to be able to do, so many robots and, and artificial intelligence will be able to do so many of the things that we potentially don't need to. So does that not allow us the ability to be able to follow things that we do love doing? Uh, we are passionate about? And then, because ultimately then for me this is where back to the emotional literacy skills and back to the things that you're talking about, kindness, etc. If, if we're really focusing on that they had life skills that can be adapted to anything. Right? Uh, that's where we make. But one, one thing I did want to just cross with like, and this was again me and Kelly having his debate and she was what, what she, she went, yeah, but okay, so say we're going to go, right, we're going to go with kindness and we're going to do that. You still got to test someone to measure it, haven't you? Still got to say who if they've done that. But that's not actually a kind things. You've got to learn from that and you've got. So do we still, do we still have to test even at that thing? Is there still got to be an outcome and a metric that we've got to measure if we're teaching emotional literacy, is there still a way of doing it? Because, sorry, I am going to stop, I'm um, throwing so many things at you, but. Because when I spoke to a, ah, head teacher at Hearst College, his answer to me, I said, why are we focusing purely on academic intelligence, not emotional intelligence? And his response was because we can measure academic intelligence and you can't necessarily measure emotional intelligence or emotional literacy. Sorry, a load of things there.

Speaker A: Uh, and my response to that is, is find a way, find a way to measure that. And does it mean that it's being measured externally? What about the validity of measuring your own emotional intelligence? How kind was I today? How helpful was I today? How did I make someone's day better? Um, and the headteacher is part of the system that tells them that, you know, there's going to be league tables. I remember when I was in school for, uh, part of my schooling, there were no league tables. And then league tables came in and then we found out that my school was 8th out of 10th in the borough in the league tables. And we're like, oh yeah, we knew our school wasn't great, but like to find out that we're eighth, that's like really, really bad. Um, and it's almost as if in society we've become obsessed with data collection, but what are we actually doing with that data? And so, yes, you've got all these league tables, but what is that being used for? So if we know that you get what you measure and you can change what you get by changing what you measure, what are, ah, we then going to do with that information? And so then the question becomes, okay, if we're measuring emotional intelligence and we want that to have an outcome, does that mean that there's going to be stronger communities? Does that mean that instead of losing 200 school children in the UK a year to suicide, that that number goes down? Is that not a measure? Why aren't we measuring like we know that 200 school children a year die from suicide? Surely if there is more measures about, is each child getting the right amount of food? Are they in a safe environment at, uh, home, Are they able to have a wash? You know, and when, imagine if we put resources into making things better for the children and their families, the ripple effect of that will be huge. But because we're not measuring the ripple effect of that, because we're not joining the dots between this child didn't get enough food at home, their clothes didn't get washed, now their clothes smell, now their, that other children in the class are bullying them. And now not only maybe they're experiencing violence or neglect at home, but they're getting bullied in school. And then that child then maybe, um, finds unhealthy coping mechanisms or finds belonging, you know, through, you know, county lines, they've been rejected by their family, they've been rejected by their friends at school. But then someone else comes along and says, oh, you know, we' sort you out, mate. And so if we were to measure those kind of outcomes of how many children are safe and not in county lines, how many children are not dying from suicide, how many children are able to then create their own businesses or if they want to go to college, do that? Um, and I think there's an opportunity for us to, yeah, to encourage entrepreneurship, which would go against the whole system, um, which is why it's not encouraged. But. Yeah.

Speaker B: What's the age group that those 200 school children that die of suicide, what's the age group of that?

Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know what the youngest child, the age of the youngest child. I do know that there have been at least seven cases. I don't know whether it's just in the UK or globally, where There has been AI involvement in a child's death by suicide. So where, uh, a child has said, um, I'm not sure about doing this and I don't want to be alone. And the AI has said to them, you're not alone, I'm here. Yeah. And then that child has then died. So I do understand and acknowledge that there are possibilities with technology. And I also want to shine a light on the fact that there are also dangers with technology.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, yeah. And very much I think where, you know, I've heard about a couple of them cases and it is this. Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's not just children where AI has been involved in a person dying from suicide.

Speaker B: And I mean, look, um, if we can, we're touch on mentioned suicide there. And I think, you know, my m, My heart, the essence of the podcast and my whole mission is to, you know, I'm focused heavily on male suicide. But I do believe that, um, and I've said it a few times, like, I believe, believe conversations like this will have an impact. I believe that, um, it will help. I believe the work I'm going into organizations and doing, hosting men's groups. I believe that women. But, uh, fundamentally I really believe the real change comes if we can start early. And I think this is, uh, the fact that we're starting to talk about suicide prevention in schools in September is huge. But as Rose mentioned again, we need to train people who are going to be able to teach that properly, um, to get an understanding of it.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: I guess like, uh, are you able to share with the suicides? Are you able to share a little bit about. Because I know you, obviously you are an advocate and you go into this space because obviously your cousin died of suicide. Um, are you able to share a bit about what led to that process and afterwards and how that sort of shaped you a bit?

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, so I, I lost my cousin to suicide. He was 27 years old, a final year med student. And it came as a complete shock. And it was hard to process because. And I'm sure other people who've lost people to suicide will be able to relate to this and resonate with this. You think, why didn't I see any signs? Why didn't I spot anything? What was there that I could have spotted? What were the clues? And so I experienced a lot of guilt after he died, thinking, what else could I have done differently? What didn't I see? And it also made me rethink my career choices. So I was a career coach and employment advisor at the time. Helping people with health conditions and disabilities get into work, stay in work. Um, really rewarding, really fulfilling job was helping people with anxiety, depression, adhd, in some cases, helping people get their first ever job. In other cases, people were returning to work after having had cancer. Ah. Um, so it was a really wholesome job and I still knew that I needed to do more because I hadn't been able to help my cousin. And I thought, there's got to be more I could do. I need to be of greater service to the world. And I thought about becoming a mental health first aid instructor. And, um, I'm really, really glad that I didn't because I stumbled upon a Marissa peer masterclass. It included some hypnotherapy. I experienced it and the next day I felt different. And I was like, oh, what is this? And I already knew hypnotherapy was power because someone I knew had experienced hypnotherapy to quit alcohol. And. And then I thought about it and I thought, well, mental health first aid is just making people aware of conditions, whereas training in something like Rapid Transformational Therapy, a form of hypnotherapy, combined with, um, nlp, neuro, linguistic programming. By training in that M modality, I can help people become free of those conditions. And that's the thing that really excited me. Um, and so that's what I did. I began helping people. And because I was talking about suicide prevention online, because I was sharing the story of my cousin, because I contributed to a campaign calling for a statutory duty of care for university students, and also because I was involved in Baton of Hope, which was in Brighton, which was led by Rose. People, um, would come to me and say that the reason that they chose me to be their therapist as opposed to other people, was because they felt comfortable with me, because I spoke about suicide and they knew that they could tell me that they'd previously had suicidal thoughts or that they were currently experiencing suicidal thoughts and that I wouldn't freak out. And what I've since learned is that only 4% of healthcare professionals are trained in suicide prevention. And so if you think you go to any big website that supports people in crisis, they'll say, go to A and E or go to your gp. The AE staff may not have been trained in suicide prevention, your GP may not have been trained in suicide prevention. Some of those may not even believe that suicide is preventable. And so we're asking people to go to professionals that are not trained in suicide prevention. And then we're wondering why the numbers in 2024 in England and Wales, of people dying from suicide are the highest since 1999. And so if fundamentally healthcare professionals are not trained in suicide, that's a big failing, a systemic failing. And that's why you will hear myself, Rose and many, many other people say, suicide prevention is everyone's business. And Rose will have said, you know, a conversation is the best known protective factor that we have. And it's about inspiring people to start the conversation. And so many. This circles back to what we were talking about at the beginning. So many people don't start the conversation. So many people don't ask, are you thinking about suicide? Because they're, uh, scared of what would happen if that person then says yes. They're scared of, like, what will I then need to do? Do I even know what I would do if that person says yes? So it's actually become easy, it becomes easier to not ask that question in the first place. And so the work that so many of us in the space are doing is saying, number one, trust your gut. When something feels off about someone, if they're not their usual self, you know, they're a bit quieter than normal, or they're a bit louder than normal, or they're suddenly like, just disappeared from the scene. Trust your gut. When something feels off about someone, ask the question, are you thinking about suicide? Listen without judgment, interruption or advice, and then keep the person safe for now. We know that isolation is a big risk factor and so making sure that person isn't alone. And so you may have noticed, as I was saying, those that they actually spell out a really nice acronym. And as a former teacher, I love acronyms and ways to memorize things. So you. Yeah, it spells talk, trust your gut, Ask the question, Listen without judgment, interruption or advice. Keep the person safe for now. And the big spoiler alert. And Ted would have gotten this, but you're getting this instead is my intention was to share the ABC of suicide? Because a lot of the time people will say suicide. Suicide prevention is complicated and it's complex. And whenever we hear something is complicated and complex, it's human nature to go, oh, let me just take a step back because that sounds a little bit difficult and a little bit challenging. And actually the opposite is needed in suicide prevention. We want people to take a step forward. So by sharing the ABC of suicide, um, and when we hear abc, I know we were talking about music before, it's like ABC, it's easy as 1, 2, 3. And so my definition, my ABC of suicide is that suicide happens when someone is alone with a belief that a situation can't change. And because I love a Venn diagram, this one's only got three. Um, suicide happens at the intersection of hopelessness, helplessness and powerlessness. So hopelessness is, um, I can't be helped. Helplessness is, uh, I can't help myself. And powerlessness is. Yeah, nothing that anyone can do will change this. And quite often hopelessness can be linked to unhealed trauma, grief and loss. Helplessness can be linked to, to unacknowledged stress, whether it's stress of a workload or the stress of, uh, chemicals and toxins and medications on our body. And powerlessness can be brought about by the unequal distribution of wealth. However, it's not so easy to remember. Oh, right. Suicide happens at the intersection of hopelessness, helplessness, and what was the third one? Or unhealed trauma, grief and loss and unequal distribution of wealth. And what was the other one? Um, so the ABC is like alone with a belief that a situation can't change. And so, so many people that I have spoken to in, through various campaigns, so many bereaved family members and friends that I've spoken to. When I think back to all of their circumstances, whether it was someone who was, um, being kicked out of uni, someone who'd got bad exam results, someone who had debts that they couldn't handle, um, someone whose relationship had broken down and they weren't going to be able to see their children anymore. Um, someone who had never received support for experiences in childhood, either what they'd experienced themselves m or what they'd witnessed. Um, and yeah, they were alone with a belief that situation can't change.

Speaker B: I just wanted to take a moment to talk about one of our sponsors, Nostos. An authentic experience of Greece right here in the heart of Hove. In a world brimming with dining options, finding that one place that captivates your palate and heart isn't always easy. Easy. It's about more than food. It's the stories, the ambiance, the slice of another world. This is the essence of Nostos, an award winning Greek restaurant with traditional recipes passed down through generations. Each dish promises a story and a piece of heritage. And Nostos is more than just a restaurant. It's a community contributor. Each dining experience supports initiatives close to their heart, from local charities to cultural events enriching Brighton and Hove's social fabric. They also provide catering services, bringing Greek cuisine to your personal events. For a taste of Greece without leaving town, visit nostos-hove.co.uk and when you do go, say, Sam recommended the feta nests. Oh my God, they are amazing. Wow. And, um, we touched on this a little bit with Rose last week around the. Because there's that belief that it can't change that a. Conversations about. Because actually, what is it that what we want to try and do in those situations is give people hope? Is that the missing link that we. That we need in there, that we. When the belief that it can't change, how do we. How do we get in there soon enough to give them that little bit of hope? That little bit of hope where. And, and. And this is something I'm, um, keen to explore with you. Where do we. Because I believe like the whole you're right mate campaign is checking in, right. Trying to coveraging people, checking on people. Make sure we do that. But how do we also, I want. I'm wondering whether. How do we give people the ability to reach out as well when you're struggling, when you're really struggling, you receiving them messages, you're, uh, right mate, and someone's checking in. How do we. How do we change that narrative? Like I said, change that belief, that mindset around and we change that to get people to encourage people to. To answer honestly and reach out. How do we. How do we encourage that more?

Speaker A: I honestly believe that you are doing it right now. Through sharing stories, we see that it's possible for people to make different choices, have different paths after having experienced things. M. I experienced a lot of racism in my childhood. Bricks through the window, graffiti on the wall. I was in India when Indira Gandhi got assassinated and as a child I internalized that, uh, it's not safe. As a woman when you speak up too much because people will take you out. In her case, literally someone from her own government took her out.

Speaker B: Out.

Speaker A: Um, I've experienced things in relationships that were deeply, deeply unpleasant. And so by all of us sharing what we feel comfortable with sharing, it gives people hope that, oh, um, they didn't know which career path, but they found a way to be of service to the world. Oh, m. They were homeless, but actually now they've set up a charity and they, they help other people. So it's. The more that we can share stories. We're showing pathways of what could be possible.

Speaker B: I love that. And, and, uh, there's so much, isn't it, I guess, uh, trying to. Trying to think of people listening and someone is struggling when they're. Someone's listening now and they're. They're in that place where they're struggling and they go. Because when we are in. Not in a good place, we isolate ourselves. We don't want to. You know, there's them narratives that I know I've still played over in my mind. You don't want to be a burden, don't want to reach out to someone and give someone else my problems. These are my problems. I've got to deal with them. Um, what message do we give to those people when if someone's listening, they are struggling? And what message do we. What do you. What do we want them to land right now? I guess like you said, that maybe back to your cousin that tragically died of something that for him to hear. I know that Ben west has done the Reasons to Stay, which is phenomenal. What an incredible inspiration he is. But I guess we're.

Speaker A: What.

Speaker B: What would you want people to hear.

Speaker A: That up until that point of questioning, they've had a hundred percent survival rate. They may have gone through relationship breakdowns, they may have been involved in accidents and they still survived. And so if they look back at, uh, all of the things that they have overcome, those experiences, those moments, they were temporary. And so even though in that moment you might feel that the situation can't change, look back and notice everything that has changed.

Speaker B: Amazing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Ah, there's that, there's that fame. What comes up for me when you say that? Uh, and it's hard to sometimes think this when you're in those moments. And I know I felt it but that uh, that those words and this too shall pass or something. I guess I. I echo so much and I try and for myself. Right. I'll try and remind of those things that. And I think taken from what you've just said is exactly that might look at all them things that you've got through. It passed and. And it relates to when good things are happening as well. Uh, I'm having a great time. This will pass.

Speaker A: This incredible concert, all this incredible party is. Yeah.

Speaker B: So I think if. Yeah, I guess that's the, that's the message. And it's just trying to get that across to people. Get that because this is where uh, again, I guess the amount of awareness there is now around in that you shared them. Statistics at 2024 was hard and it's not. And you go, we've got all of this. We've got more awareness. There's so many more people doing amazing work in this space and yet the statistics are still going up and they're still high. And you go, what, what. What needs to change, something's drastically got to change. And I guess this just back to my whole thing around. Is it, is it these conversations, these stories, these things that we need to give the skills to. Kids are, uh, young. And this is where it starts, isn't it's got to start. Surely it's got to start there for that net for the next generation of kids coming through, kids of my age group, my twins are 10, 11. That next generation giving them those skills, is that where, is this where the real change starts to happen?

Speaker A: So I remember hearing Rose say to me recently, oh, Hema's like the Carol Vorderman of, uh, suicide. So I'm just gonna throw some more stats. And I know I shared one stat in a, in a previous conversation. So 62% of men who've died from suicide, it could be linked to financial issues or difficulties. In the Kent and Medway study, 33% of people who died from suicide were either a, uh, victim, a, uh, perpetrator of domestic abuse or someone who'd grown up where domestic abuse was present. I know Ian Wright has famously talked about, um, being a child in a home where domestic abuse was present and how he has, as an adult had to process the impact that that uh, had had on him. The other statistic that I want to share is that it's thoughts. I personally think the figure is higher, that around 30% could be linked to side effects from antidepressant use. Suicide is a known side effect from antidepressant use. Other side effects include headaches, nausea, um, diabetes, other kind of conditions as well. And my question is, I think the latest figures are one in five adults in the UK is now taking an antidepressant. How many of those adults were informed that suicide is a side effect, is a known side effect effect of antidepressant use. Another side effect I forgot to mention is sexual dysfunction. So if we think about the numbers, okay, we know, especially in terms of male suicide, that finances play a big part. That either being a victim, a perpetrator, or growing up in a home where domestic abuse was present plays a big part. Antidepressant use plays a part. And also child sex abuse, When people experience that, fundamentally the message that is internalized is, I am not safe, I am not safe, I'm not important. I'm not worthy or deserving. Because if I was worthy or deserving, they wouldn't have done this to me. If I was important, they wouldn't have done this to me. If I was safe, this wouldn't be happening. I Can't trust people. And so if we think about. Because there's not exact figures on this, because not everyone discloses childhood sex abuse, um, or they may have only disclosed it to a therapist. And so if we think about how men especially may not admit to having experienced that, may not receive support for that. So if we take all of those things into account, plus the side effect of sexual dysfunction from antidepressant use. So it's already, I'm not feeling great about myself. My finances might not be great. This is what I witnessed growing up. So therefore, I don't really have much hope for the future. Um, plus, it's having an effect on me physically as well. And then the added thing is, when people come off antidepressants, if they don't come off in a very specific tapered way, that massively increases the risk of dying from suicide. And so I myself experienced suicidal thoughts in 2011, and I'd made a plan, and I was about to carry out that plan, except I got interrupted. And it was only, I think, last year that I joined the dots of. Hang on a minute. That was the same year that I'd been prescribed antidepressants. At the time, I just thought it was me that, okay, I'd reached, um, the age of 36, and all my friends were married and had kids. And the friends that weren't married or had kids, they had big careers. And so it's that thing of, like, you either have a family or you have a big career or you have both. And there was me thinking, well, I've got none of the above. Um, and thinking, well, what's the point of me? Like, what's. What's the point of my existence? You know, and. And it's only recently that I realized, no, actually, it was when I came off antidepressants. That's when I started looking at the fine print in my mortgage documents to make sure that if, and if I did do anything, that no one else would be impacted. And so I think we need to, as a society, be really honest about the harms of medication, because I think that's one area I don't think it was covered in the British standard on suicide prevention. I haven't read it all. Um, but I know lots of really good things were covered in that standard, but I'm not sure if side effect from antidepressant use was covered. So that's one area. And the other thing that I only realized in the last couple of weeks that when I was suicidal as a teenager, that's when I had been prescribed antibiotics for a very long time for a skin condition. And science is now showing that when you have antibiotic use, it affects your gut microbiomes. And um, when that is affected, that can then affect your mood. I'm like, isn't that amazing that it's taken me until the age of 50 to realize that the two times in my life that I was suicidal, they were both related to the pharmaceutical industry. Wow,

Speaker B: There's so much here, Barney. There's so many. Well, thank you for sharing your story as well. And I guess that God is so much there. You mentioned there about there's so many. So I'm picked it. But you met m. You m. You mentioned there about uh, men and finances and that narrative and. And again, back to your stories. It's part of the problem that we go. There's a blueprint for what life should look like. And when we don't measure up to what the blueprint is, that's when we start to feel worthless and useless. How do we. How does that narrative start to change? I resonate so much because my. Mine was similar in the sense that I had the family and I had the other things, but my narrative of what I felt was successful. I wasn't like from a career point of view and a business as a business person. So that's when I went to uh, enough. I had suicidal ideation. But so it's again the narrative of Gan. I, uh, should be here by now and I'm not not. And I know I'll keep circling back. I'll keep circling back to kids and I'll keep circling back to schools and I'll keep circling back to education and the fact that we are programmed from a young age to believe that this is what we should do. So like you said, we're going to do well in a test and then we're going to go to college or university or we're going to do well in this and be successful at that because that will give us a job and then that will. And then you'll get a mortgage and a house and this whole societal thing rather than leading back to the what do I love doing? What fills me up, what makes me happy, what gives me purpose and just being enough, recognizing them from that young age, aware enough. That has got to be. If that has got to be where the. That navigate. I'm listening to you talk and I'm listening to them statistics and I'm thinking of my own story and my own narrative and the conversations I've had on here and it keeps just bringing me back to that point and it's got to be that, isn't it?

Speaker A: And, and again, the, it's, the gap is getting wider because, yes, we've been conditioned and programmed to believe that you're only successful if you've got a certain number of zeros in your bank account, um, and that, you know, you own a house and you've got a car and you've got this and you can go on this many holidays a year and all of that. And what we're seeing in social media is so many people under the age of 30 going, and this is how I made my first million and this is how I make 10k a month. And this is. And so you see all of that and you think, wow, I'm a real failure because I'm not like earning 10k a month and I haven't made a million by the age of 27. Um, and so there's, that goes back to that unequal distribution of wealth. And also I was watching a, I think it was on LinkedIn, possibly either earlier today or yesterday, and there was an investigative journalist who was looking at children being taken into gangs along the lines, you know, of county lines. And they set up a social media account and they started looking at content, um, on TikTok, about money and young people making money and wealth, wealth. And within days they were receiving messages from strangers about, you know, if you want to make a bit of extra cash, I've got something for you. And so our generation was programmed through television. The younger generations are programmed through a device that they hold in their hand that can really get to know them very, very quickly and show them targeted things. There was, um, reports out that when girls had searched content about beauty and body shape and weight loss within, again, within a short amount of time, girls of a very young age, between the ages of 12 and 15 were shown weight loss, drug adverts and things like that. So it's. The bigger systems are preying on, um, what we're worried about. They're profiting from what we're worried about to our detriment.

Speaker B: Um, I'm keen if you can, if we go back to 2011, when you mentioned. And what, what helped you or what did, uh, what helped you to get through that period and what, what changed for you in your mindset?

Speaker A: Um, I remember that I was prescribed antidepressants. I don't recall being told about any side effects. Um, and at that time I, I wasn't on the path that I am on now. So I didn't have the knowledge that I have now. Um, and I think the doctor mentioned counseling. And then someone else I knew said, oh, you know, they'll keep you on a waiting list for weeks and weeks and weeks. Um, and the only way to get further up the waiting list is if you're suicidal. And I didn't tell the person at the time, but I was like, I actually am suicidal. Um, and so I was able to receive some counseling. And although it didn't address anything at a fundamental or deep level, and I found some of the sessions quite frustrating because I didn't feel like I was making any progress. But one thing that the counselor said was, you know, really, um, dial back into your childhood hobbies and interests. Uh, you know, she goes, what are your hobbies? And I was like, I don't have any hobbies. I go to work, I come home, I eat dinner, I sleep, and then I get up and do it all again. Just like, hobbies, Hobbies. What does she mean by hobbies? And so I really had to go home and reflect on, like, hobbies. What does that even mean? What did I used to enjoy as a child? And the things that I enjoyed as a child were, you know, singing, acting, dancing, all of that stuff. And so then that kind of sparked a bit of a light bulb moment, and I thought, you know, are there any choirs in my local area career? Are there any dance lessons? And so then I found a choir, and I walked into the rehearsal, and someone said to me, oh, are you the, you know, the guest, um, singer for this session? Because they hadn't seen me before. And I was like, no, I'm just coming along for a trial. Um, and within that choir, I found a sense of community. I found friends that were not just my work friends or my partner. And so it helped me get to know people of different backgrounds, different ages. And it was a rhythm every Saturday morning. That's what I did. And so it gave me connection. So if we think back to the abc, alone with the belief that a situation can't change, it stopped me being alone. Um, and then as I got to know people that weren't from my workplace, I got to see and hear about things that they were doing, things that they were involved in that they were interested in. And it just opened my mind to what was possible. Oh, right, Our choir does shows. Oh, we could do a show at St. George's Hall. Uh, and suddenly my world went from being very, very small with kind of no way out to, uh, Just seeing little shoots of possibilities. Um, and then on the dancing front, um, yeah, I'm not going to be invited on to, um, Strictly anytime soon, although I would love to be. So if anyone's listening, um, but I joined an Argentine tango dance class and, and you know, it was nearly all women, so I did have to partner with a woman. Um, but it was just like, I got to learn a dance that I'd seen on Strictly. So it was little things like that, that my career hadn't changed, M. My relationship hadn't changed, but I just had these little glimmers of hope that there were possibilities out there, that my life didn't have to look the same way as it does right now.

Speaker B: Hi. Such a. Thank you so much for sharing that, because that is such, for me, such a powerful message for people, because I, I. There was something I shared in, in one of my journals recently, which was about, there's a guy called Luke Bateman who I follow, who does a lot of work in this space, and he's amazing. And, and the word that I'm taking from what you've said there about possibility. And he. Men, like, if someone's in that situation, they. The choice they make is to die by suicide. That. The, the possibilities. And Right. Uh, there's, that's it. Whereas if you choose some, the possibilities are abundant. If you choose the other path, you choose life, the possibilities. The possibilities are abundant. And it's just then when. When you look at it like that, in that black and white, and you know, okay, it's like that. So if I choose to end it, there's no possibility. If I, if I just look for a possibility, whatever that looks like. And like, like you said for you is just making that choice to go, right.

Speaker A: What.

Speaker B: M. Can I, can I find something that. And you mentioned about, um, just doing community and getting involved in something. But I know Paul Dukes, who's been on Ubuns out of Puff Daddies. He mentions that. Lovely, amazing guys. Um, but so much of the work they do around mental health and they. He meant something that's really landed with me since our, uh, conversation was seeking joy. He just goes, like, out above that. We just, we laugh and we joke. Of course there's a deeper meaning under all of it. And we know everyone's got their backs, but ultimately that we're just a group of dads going and having a laugh and dancing around. And he's just seeking a couple of things here. Connection, community, the words you've mentioned. Um, and just seeking that little Bit of joy, because that even if you're not feeling great and you just show up, you just show up, then there's that little. Little glimmer of possibility. And I think that message, what you've just said, again, why I feel like these stories, sharing people, surely giving a platform for people to share them, because someone listening, maybe, maybe it just gives them that little bit of hope. Where can I look for that possibility? And I think that's something that's. Thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you.

Speaker A: And for me, when I was a teenager, house music saved my life, really. I would not be here had it not been for house music. Because as a teenager, when I was feeling suicidal, when I went to nightclubs, I was underage. Um, but as a girl, I could just wear makeup and high heels and get in anywhere. Um, being on the dance floor, that was my sanctuary. That was where I could forget all about my woes, my troubles. And, um, I could just be. Except I wasn't just being by myself. I was being in a whole, like, almost a congregation of other people enjoying the same music, enjoying the same rhythms and same beats. And now they're saying, like, again, science is catching up about how the beats and the rhythm of house music is really, really conducive to bringing about feelings of joy. And so I, like, I am clean, sober, uh, and to me, I don't need to drink anything or take anything to enjoy music because the music makes me high. So I experience that natural ecstas, see, when I'm on a dance floor. So, yes. And. And then I'm looking up at that picture which says Chicago. When I went to Chicago and went to literally the birthplace of house music, I just started crying. And the person I was with was like, what's going on here? Like, you know, we're just outside the warehouse. Like, what you. I was like, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for house.

Speaker B: Wow. Um, and I'm, um, keen. Like, just again, like with the. You mentioned obviously, in 2011, that what led you to that? But what. What about in. In your teenage years? What you said can obviously ask music save you. But what led you to those feelings of, uh, of suicide?

Speaker A: Um, there was a few things that happened in childhood, like experiencing racism, like having coming home from school and seeing there's graffiti on your wall, and then actually being in a room when a brick goes through the window and the glass just shattering everywhere and realizing that you are not safe even in your own home. Um, and also for me, I was Brought up primarily by my grandparents. And then my mum, um, got married, had my sister, and then my grandparents decided to go to India to retire. And so as an adult, I know that they were just living their best life, going to warmer climates to retire. But as a child, I was like, they were my world and they were going and they were leaving me with my. My, like my mom and my stepdad and my sister. And it's like they were leaving me. So I felt a huge sense of abandonment and that was a big thing for me in that, uh, I stopped trusting other people and I stopped trusting myself and I abandoned myself. So I either abandoned myself on the dance floor, but later, in later relationships, I had a pattern of choosing people who were untrustworthy. So mirroring back that lack of trust, um, and I had a pattern of abandoning my own goals and my own dreams and my own ambitions and focusing on whoever I was in a relationship with. So lucky for whoever I was in a relationship with because they always got promotions and they got this and they got that. Ah. Um, but I kept abandoning myself. And so in this period of life now, now, um, it's been a whole journey to get to the point of yes, I don't fear being judged, trolled or misunderstood. I am making my purpose bigger than my fears. Fears. And I'm no longer abandoning myself.

Speaker B: Wow, that's, ah, so beautiful. I'm so. It's lovely to hear as well. And I guess like one of the. Again, 1. The of. Of the things for me again, I keep using, uh, I've used the word quite a lot when I spoke to Rose as well. Is that word hope? Right. Um, you listen to. I'm so grateful for you being so open and sharing. But on both occasions, right, where. What's led you to that? And. And because some people listening may resonate, some people may have. Well, that's, that's where I am at the moment. That's what's making me feel a little bit like that. And certainly feelings of abandonment. I'm sure people can resonate, mate. But to then hear you sitting here with. And the path and the journey that you've gone on and, And I'm. I'm aware that it's an ongoing journey with all of us right now. I don't think. I wonder if we ever get to a point of I'm absolutely fine now. I've got all this figured out and, and um, I know that certainly sharing my journey. I'll go. I. I feel like I'm just at the start of it for me. Right. You just. We're just figuring, figuring all this out but to see you there and like I said, I. I've followed you for, for some time now as well. And like the stuff that you put out and you can tell that you're just what you believe and how you come across and it's just amazing. And, and yeah. Thank you. I guess. Thank you. Um, there's a couple of bits as well I wanna, I wanna touch and just, just if we can just to focus on. You mentioned about statistics and we know like the statistics around male suicide. What 75 of all suicides are. Now I'm just trying to unpick um. I guess the. Some of the reason in behind and I'm wondering. I made a couple of notes here around like uh. The. The men learn from an early age that uh, being emotionally visible is, is not safe. It's dangerous. Do you think that's something like a narrative again from society? That, that, that's, that that's what it tells men.

Speaker A: It's that whole thing of boys don't cry, you know, man up and you know, don't show emotion. And so it's about suppressing emotion. But the thing is, it's like whatever we suppress and don't express gets stuck. Stuck in different parts of our body. And so when we don't process trauma, when we have emotions that haven't been expressed or witnessed or completed, then they stay stored in our body until we release them. And so we think, okay, I've got pains here or I've got pains there. When I delivered a talk on the hidden meaning of pain in different parts of the body. It's about being able to name the feeling, express it in a safe way and for it to be seen and heard. And one of the things that we as a society aren't great with is anger. And um, we've labeled anger as something as bad. And actually if we think about what is anger fundamentally, Anger fundamentally is like we feel that our uh, boundaries have been crossed. That's when we like blow up. That's like that, that fuse moment that red mist is. You know, someone has said or done something and it's like they shouldn't have done that. Um, and. But yet we're told, oh, you shouldn't get angry. You need to be neutral. You need to. The current buzzword, you need to regulate your emotions. And then um, when we think about, you know, what is the dictionary definition of the word regulate is to rule. And so it's about control. It's about, oh, you need to control your emotions. And why do we need to control our emotions? Is it because we need to control our emotions to make other people feel comfortable? And so again, we're given these messages that your big feelings aren't welcome.

Speaker B: And

Speaker A: rage is helpful.

Speaker B: Helpful.

Speaker A: Rage helps us reconnect to our boundaries and say, yep, that was not acceptable.

Speaker B: Because there's something in, uh, really, uh, when we talk about emotions. I think there is, there's, there's, it's almost like we've got two lists. Uh, we've got the negative emotions and the positive emotions. And actually we've got to be happy and you feel joy. And these are the things that we focus on. But we can't feel angry or sad or, or, you know, other, other negative emotions. That, the second that you associate that, um, what I've been trying to say to the kids is actually all emotions, um, uh, are welcome. Certain behaviors associated with those emotions are not necessarily okay, but the emotions welcome. And I think that's again, I think listening to you talking, how you've articulated, I think that's the, that's the missing piece within the emotional literacy skill set that we need to teach is that the, the, the, the wide breadth of emotions are all welcome. And understanding them and processing them, not controlling them.

Speaker A: You've hit the nail on the head, head. Yes, it's okay to be angry. No, it's not okay to punch someone because you're angry. Um, and I can't remember the number of seconds, but is it something, and you may be able to share this, is it something that an emotion only lasts like 9 seconds or something? And so then everything after that is a choice based on the emotion. And so, yeah, so.

Speaker B: And again, that's back to the imagine imagine. If we're taught that at a young age, we're taught these are all the emotions and these are uh, ways to process them. And I think that's the thing because back to the word that come up that you, you mentioned was suppression. And I think that again, I think maybe more so. And uh, I'm keen to get your take on these. Men and young boys, boys tend to suppress more than they do young girls, women naturally better at understanding, uh, them and able to talk. And they, they do naturally talk. Someone mentioned to me on, on the podcast a while back about that. Is it as something, as just one example of it that when, maybe when young girls have their periods, they uh, it's some. They show vulnerability straight away. They will go to their friends and go on on my period says something vulnerable that they're able to share and articulate and they bond then and there's connection based on vulnerability. Whereas boys are the complete opposite to that. Anything happening physically, hormones or whatever, just. We can't talk about that. It becomes banter and we. And we block the hats. We from that young age from 10, 11, 12, whenever we start through puberty we automatically suppress. Suppress emotion. And I think that suppression. I wonder how we change that narrative for men, uh, and young boys that gotta be able to express and share emotions and talk about them more. Because I know that from. I remember when I'd done so I've done some conscious connected breath work and I uh. For someone who, you know, I'd speak on here really openly about emotions. And I've uh, you know, started going almost at the start. I'd like to think I was really into it wasn't until I've done that really unlocked like I sobbed for an hour. But what come from that was me journaling like nearly a book of stuff of emotions are just suppressing. This is someone who I think would. I'm really. I'm quite advanced in this. I'm um, you know, I talk about it a lot. I'm doing the work and I realized how many years. I'm 47 and it's only last year that I feel like I've started to maybe release some of that. And I'm thinking then how many other men maybe not as far down the journey as where I am. Just all they're doing is suppressing for so long. And how do we create safer environments for men to open up about that?

Speaker A: M. And yes, women generally do talk more and women are more receptive to talking based therapies.

Speaker B: Um,

Speaker A: and it's not necessarily about encouraging men to do the same as women. And it's about encouraging men to find their own way, their own outlets. A couple of things. I saw something about indigenous wisdom and indigenous tribes and they were saying one of the things that is fundamentally missing in Western societies is that there's no. Clear initiation process going from being a boy to a man. And so lots of indigenous tribes would have certain ceremonies or certain rituals that would, you know, be witnessed within community and saying, you know, these are the new responsibilities and this is what's about being left behind and we're here to support you and this is your tribe of men and this is you know, and it's um. So it's that sense of identity. Shifting that identity from boy to man and doing that in Community in a really positive, supportive way. Then also, there's the thing. And I don't know why this popped into my head, but I see so many adverts, um, for things like deodorant and so immediately antiperspirant deodorant. And it's like saying, your body is not welcome here. Your body is giving off a smell that is not welcome here. But what is it? Because there's sweat that smells and sweat that doesn't, and sweat that smells is a sign of somebody in stress. So actually all that we're doing when we're encouraging people of all ages to wear antiperspirants and deodorants, we're actually numbing the indicator of what stress is. And so those products themselves contain so many endocrine disruptors that, uh, affect people's hormones. So actually we're pushing chemicals into bodies, whether it's a teenage girl or boy or any young person, um, that is actually going to be worse for them by making rather than thinking, okay, the sweat is smelly. So what stress are you under? Okay, is it an exam that's stressing you out? Is it the fact that you didn't get picked for the. The team? Or is it because there's this, you know, thing coming up or, you know, and so all of these things are actually making us bypass the conversation about the thing that's actually worth worrying them.

Speaker B: I never even thought of it like that. And it's interesting you say about the, like, uh, the indigenous culture. I remember there's a guy I know really well, John Richards. I've listened to a few of his things that he's put out and, and I went to one of his talks actually, and he said very. Something very similar in the sense that they are harder. Like there is this ritual around what it means to become a man. And I think. Is there. I don't know if you've seen the Manosphere documentary Louis Faroux had done, but, uh, that question about what does it actually mean to be a man these days? And I think the lack of maybe strong male role models, and if you take it back to those indigenous cultures like this is that it was a clear thing of what it meant to be a man. And we've maybe lost that. And the role models that are power out, uh, there at the moment, and it's very much around dominance. And, you know, which is, you know, I've done a whole episode, solo episode on my own about that. Why so wrong? What the. The. For me, what we should be teaching is Raising emotionally aware, emotionally healthy young men. That, that for me, me again it all links in for me just everything I'm trying to do is all linking back into the, to the mission and one of a shoes mouth suicide. And a key element of that is raising emotionally boys in this. But it goes back to what a little bit about what you're saying there

Speaker A: and, and not being afraid to say that actually it's okay for the man to be a provider. And maybe we need to. To just add a little nuance to that definition and um, being a provider of safety, calling out other people who are making other people unsafe. Um, and so imagine if every man because yes, you know, um, more, more women and partners are getting different jobs and so maybe there is a different need for financial um, provision. But imagine if every man was like yes, I'm going to provide safety, whatever safety looks like. And that could be emotional safety, it could be physical safety safety. Because if we think about the statistic of a third of the people in the Kent and Medway study were either uh, who died from suicide were either victims of domestic abuse or perpetrators of domestic abuse or children who'd grown up in homes where domestic abuse was present. Imagine if there had been people around them in that community, in that ecosystem who had provided safety and prevented that uh, experience or prevented the witnessing of that experience. And so there is a role for men. Maybe that role is just needs to be defined.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's it. I think that that's something really key. And I've asked lots of people who have come on like what. What does it to be a man these days? Because there's so many different narratives out there and, and maybe it is as simple as that. Maybe it is as simple as just um. Because you can still. But by. For me by being emotionally aware doesn't mean that you. You know again narratives around vulnerability and pride and it would be weakness and which has real strength. Right like that. That narrative is real strength to be emotionally aware. And you can be uh. Some people will go oh it's a man's man who, who stands up. What does that mean then? But actually maybe being a real man is someone that can provide safety for all. For all. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, it's so there's so much that we

Speaker A: um.

Speaker B: As we're coming there's so many other things I still want to, I want to touch on um. And we're coming towards in a couple of closing question. But there was some things I wanted to share just around like uh, the message as well that you. You put out there and, and how, like when you f. What we talked about earlier, a bit about purpose and finding that um, when it becomes bigger than, uh, fear, like I said, certainly I guess very much from where I'm coming from at the moment, I feel like this purpose that I'm being pulled there. But I guess what. What advice would you give someone who's maybe a bit scared of sharing their message and where they're. If they're feeling a bit stuck in themselves, they. They want to put out there, but feeling a little bit terrified, I guess to put something out. Uh, what. What advice could you give someone around that

Speaker A: make it about who you.

Speaker B: It.

Speaker A: Because so often the reason that we worry about showing up and speaking up is we think what will the comeback be on me? And as you're doing with this podcast is like what could be the impact on the person hearing your voice? So when we make it about who we serve, It becomes so much easier to say what needs to be said.

Speaker B: I love that. And I guess when you. When it becomes then about again about the purpose. Right. And about the audience and about the p. It's not about we let go, I guess of ego's the right word. Maybe. Don't know. Maybe is we let go. Like, um, when we focus more on. It's about if it's about us and I've got to get this right or I'm gonna do it. When it doesn't become about us, it becomes about a bigger purpose and uh, they. I feel like, uh, I guess I'm speaking on my own journey. I feel like I've done more stuff to camera more post some more things about the message because, um, that can even impact. So can it maybe help one person then I'm gonna put it out there and I'm gonna keep sharing. I feel like I've found my voice, I guess. And yet I'm still. I'm still battling with it internally. Like still battling with that thing because, you know, I've had a couple of negative comments recently and you go, and I reacted to that in a way that I'm gonna. I'll take that down then. And I shouldn't say that rather than have that confidence in myself that I'm not gonna. I guess. How did you. Have you been able to let go of that. That feeling of going, I'm not gonna please everyone. I'm gonna. I guess it circles back. I know we touched on it at the beginning, but just coming full circle, I guess back to uh, that feeling, yeah.

Speaker A: Being able to sit with the discomfort of like, I didn't please that person. They're angry and annoyed at me. And as you said, we're not going to please all of the people all of the time. And it's about really looking at ourselves and thinking, what was my intention? Yeah, did my intention come from a good place? Did my intention come from a place of do no harm? Is my conscience clear that I was doing it with a good intention? And can I recognize that I am a human being and human beings make mistakes? And so therefore there may have a been gap between my intention and the impact? And also can I allow for the possibility that my intention was good? I thought the impact was good. Maybe how that person interpreted it may not have been in alignment with how I intended it.

Speaker B: I wish I'd message you after that because that is exactly it. But that I will just share the quick example of what. Basically it was the thing around the manosphere and I shared that, um, so much of my take from the manosphere. And I used an example from again from Luke Bateman who I, I, um, referenced quite a lot. But um, it was around. It was actually the manosphere is just a bit of a Ponzi scheme selling quick fixes. Right. Get rich quick schemes. That's what underlied the whole. They're using like uh, these, this, this dominance and this archaic or this really, you know, um, I guess awful narrative around what it means to be a man. And they're being controversial around it to get people to buy into them because maybe some young boys are feeling lost, they want something to follow, so they're following that. So the underlying tone. And he like, he said, look, it's a, basically a sign of society. Sometimes we want quick fixes and that's where we are. And he like I did something like, you know, maybe a fat loss pill or along those lines. Like uh, we, we look for that in. And I, I used that as an example and someone, a friend of mine I've known for years, um, she reached out and was like, hadn't commented on any of my stuff or sent me any messages for years, but chose this moment to go, well, some of your friends are on that, including me. And it's. Believe me, it's not a quick, easy way out. And, and, and was offended by it. Um, which I understood. And my uh, outside. Okay, well, I didn't mean to offend. I understand that that message maybe didn't land me. The actual underlying message of the whole thing is around Trying to reduce male suicide. And my take on the manosphere and how that could have impacted not really to do with fat loss. It was just a small example. Okay, um, but after I lay it down, I thought she hasn't contacted me. I've shared all this content. She hasn't contacted me. She's chose this moment to contact me and criticize me. And then I shared another thing afterwards, not mentioning any names, but I just then mentioned why is it that within society we're really quick to criticize someone and not to like I've shared all this content and someone didn't comment on that, but she did. And then one of my best friends, which is her partner, commented and said, take that down. That's really out of order. And I was like, ah, um, part of me, I got really upset, actually I got really emotional. Um, I hadn't spoke to either of them, but I just took it down straight away. The people please decide. We just took it. I was okay, I'll take it. I don't want any of that. It's missing the message for me, the message is I'm trying to reframe success because I want to reduce male suicide. And this is the impact I'm having. There's these underlying tones and all and there's some controversy around this and some negativity that I don't want any part of. Don't want people talking about it or. So, uh, I just took it down and I just. And if I just part of listening to what I know I've gone around the house a bit, but listening to what you just said landed so much. I'm thinking my. Maybe it is that it come from a good place. A hundred percent. Both of those posts separately come from a good place of m. Intention. My. The, the point about the criticism was just going, are we in society? Can we. My message was on the back of that was if you see someone that's doing something, something good, take an opportunity now to reach out and tell them, I see you and you're doing something good. I'm proud of you. Tell them you love them. Tell. Say something kind. Come from a place of kindness and see that. Don't, um, wait for someone to say something that may be a bit thingy and you're going to criticize them. That was my underlying tone of that. Um, and the previous one was obviously around the manosphere. I was just not. Maybe what I've shared is just not landed with that person. Person as you just alluded to that It's. I can Sleep at night because it's come from a place of good intention, um, with, uh, it's not at the desired impact on that person, but maybe, maybe it has on a lot of others. And I can be at peace with that, I guess. Um, yeah, that's really helped me because I, I swear I struggled with it was to rather than. I felt like I'd, I'd come a long way in my journey and that took me right back. I felt like I just went back to people pleasing again and I just went back. So I don't want that. I'm not. I don't feel strong enough in my voice to go, actually, I'm really sorry that's not landed. But this is what I believe and this is why I've done it. Uh, I took it down and just didn't contact them anymore. And that, that's probably what I'm sitting with the most at the moment. That uncomfortable feeling of thought I was further along than I am and I'm not.

Speaker A: Anyway, we are all works in progress. We're all on a journey.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, I think one of the really good takeaways from like the behavior management training that I received when I was a secondary school teacher was praise in public and give other feedback in private. So they had an opportunity to DM you as opposed to comment on the post.

Speaker B: No, they did the event. That's fair enough. Yeah. Yeah, they did message me properly. Yeah. So that's cool.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, the other thing is remembering that we are all wounded human beings. I don't know if you've seen that sculpture. I don't even know where it's from. There's a big steel sculpture with two people with their backs towards each other. And then underneath that sculpture is two little children. Have you seen that? I'll see if I can find it and send it to you. Um, it's remembering that we are all wounded. And so sometimes when we speak, someone is hearing it it through the lens of their wounding. And so yes, in society we have been programmed and conditioned to look for a quick fix and magic pill. And yes, there are lots of pills for which we do not know the side effects. And so it's perfectly valid to say, yes, we've been conditioned to look for quick solutions. Um, and also we don't know that person's wounding of what the issue of weight and fat means to them. And so then it's just hit a nerve in them that they felt the need to comment. And so when we realize that in any relationship, it's just one wounded human talking to another wounded human. And I'll be runes are talking to each other. Then we can start to understand why we can have these misunderstandings. And then also leaving room for the fact that there will always be some people who are committed to misunderstanding you. So then there's can be the, the occasional misunderstanding and then there's people who like no matter what you say and do, they will just always um.

Speaker B: Thank you. We're coming towards the end and before we do our closing tradition, I'm um. Really, Kim, what do you hope people feel after listening to this conversation

Speaker A: that change is possible. And I'm going to echo what you said, that whatever you're feeling right now is temporary, whether it be joy and ecstasy or pain and crisis. And fundamentally, as human beings, we have five needs. To feel that we're good enough, to feel that we belong and can connect to feel that things are possible, that we are worthy and deserving, and that our future can be different to the past. And so if we can all help ourselves and help each other other remember that the future can be different to

Speaker B: the past

Speaker A: and just open uh, the door to possibility. Leave that door a jar and invite people to step into it.

Speaker B: Wow. I uh, love that. I love that. We spend so much time often in the past, don't we? Those past narratives. Take that. Take me back to something that you mentioned right at the very start around presence. You mentioned the word presence there. Ah, um, which is one of, which has come out as one of the five pillars for me of success. Um, and probably the one that I struggle with the most because, because we live so much in the past and we do often, you know, we want to have the, the belief and the possibility what that door open, leaving that door, a jar is open. But the importance of living in the now. And how, uh, for you, how do you stay present? What do you do to stay present?

Speaker A: When I realized that anxiety is the fear of something that hasn't happened yet. So it's in the future. And that depression is ruminating over the past. And as human beings, we're either replaying the past or pre playing the future. And actually everything happens in the present. So if we're in the past or the future, we're not facilitating change because we're somewhere else. And the reason so many of us struggle with not being present is when we've had terrible things happen to us, we disconnect from our bodies, we disassociate. Something painful is happening. So therefore I will go somewhere else and then we've never learned to bring ourselves back and reconnect and reassociate. And so the more work that we do on healing, presence is really linked to the trust wound. Trusting in your own choices, decisions and actions, trusting in your voice, message and truth. Trusting in others and trusting in, in universe, God, source, faith. When we're able to trust goes back to uh, my definition of anxiety. Anxiety is fear of something that hasn't happened yet. The opposite of anxiety isn't calm, it's trust. Trusting that you'll be okay no matter what. So therefore you don't need to hang out in the past, past learning the lessons from the past and staying there. And you don't need to hang out in the future and thinking about the what ifs and um, over planning for the what ifs. If you can be fully present, that's where all the power is. And when it comes to speaking, I did a post recently about this. The difference between good speakers and great speakers speakers, it's not preparation. And especially sort of having attended quite a few TED talks, you know, everyone up there has prepared. They wouldn't be there if they hadn't prepared. The difference is presence. Who's really in the room, who's feeling the energy of the room, who's responding in the moment, enjoying the moment, moment being in the moment. And so when we trust that we'll be okay no matter what, we give ourselves the uh, the luxury, the privilege, the permission to be present. When we don't trust that we'll be okay no matter what, we're hanging out in one of those other two places.

Speaker B: Wow, How do we, but how do we get to that presence? How do we get to that? Because I loved. I have never heard it like uh, in that trust element, how do we get to that point again, someone listening. Where do you start with that?

Speaker A: Um, so the thing that has worked for me is I received the same modality I deliver to clients. I received it myself as a client on healing the trust wounds. And so my trust wound like began like when my, my grandparents left and I felt like I'd been abandoned so I didn't trust anyone anymore. Um, and then also that the trust wound was further wounded through, you know, racist graffiti, bricks through the window, not trusting that I was safe in my physical environment. And so I received um, RTT hypnotherapy to get to the root cause and reason of my trust wounds so that I was able to, to process it, talk it through what I'd experience, what I'd Made it mean the beliefs that had been formed at that time, how those beliefs were looping like a vinyl record and then completing it. Because a lot of the time we experience things but the emotion hasn't been completed or witnessed, it's been pushed down or suppressed. And so being able to get it out out and then finding where the trust wound was stored in my body, um, I can't remember because it was some years back, but I know, like I had things either stored in my throat or in my heart or in my stomach. Um, and so then when you find out the, the reason for the wound, where it's stored in your body and then it's released, um, then you develop a whole new relationship with trust. And so before I wouldn't be able to stick at habits and now, you know, if I say I'm going to only eat between 11am and 7pm because I want to do intermittent fasting and that's my choice and that's what I want to do. I'm not saying it's right for everyone, um, but you know, something that I'd set my mind to, I do it. Whereas before I, you know, do it for a couple of days and then fall off and then do it for another couple of days and then fall off and then decide it was just not worth it. And so in terms of being able to stick to habits now, I trust myself, I make and keep promises to myself. Um, and again, because I'm a human and I'm a work in progress, things that I would have procrastinated for months and years on, I still might procrastinate a little bit, but I'm procrastinating at a much shorter space of time than I would ordinarily. And so it has allowed me to do things and show up in a way that I'd have never been able to show up for myself before. So I actually think the way that my life is progressing now, it's like so much happens in a year now that in a previous version of the me, that number of ah, events would have happened over the course of 5, 6, 7, 8 years. Whereas, because I trust myself and I know I'm going to be okay no matter what, I may take, you know, certain business risks or I may take, you know, I may do a video about something and show up in a certain way and say something because I know that, that, you know, know that video. It's like, what did they used to say when we were younger? It's like tomorrow's chip paper, you know, like they used to say with like newspaper back in the day when chips were wrapped in newspaper.

Speaker B: I remember.

Speaker A: Yeah. I'm not sure if I answered question because I went off on it.

Speaker B: No, no, no, no. But you did it again. And it's, it's relating to that, that feeling of presence. Right. Um. And, ah, that. And, and um, like you said, what's worked for you unlocking that, that truck? Uh, and I'm wondering, I'm listening to you and I'm thinking to myself, like, again, where I'm landing back to it where I'm with margin. I know that presence is the thing that I probably struggle with the most. And I'm wondering, I'm listening to some of the work I've started doing on myself is, is I'm. I'm surrounded by love. Um, I'm. I'm so blessed. I'm surrounded by people that I could pick the phone up to at any point where I battle with at the moment. And what I'm really unpacking as an early stages is why I don't love myself. And I'm, um, I'm. I, uh, don't know where that comes from, why. But listening to you talk, I'm wondering how that is linked so much to my lack of presence. Because a wound or whatever it is, like why I can't. And I don't know, uh, I don't know why that record is going round and round in my head. I'm trying to figure it out and I don't know is the answer. But, um, I'm listening to that and thinking, I wonder if, if that's linked, if I unlock that, where that comes from and release that I'll be able to be more present, maybe.

Speaker A: And sometimes it can be something that happened in a classroom, in the playground. It doesn't have to be this huge thing. Um, and I think, yes, sometimes we underestimate the impact of those. And going back to that Lego in the Plasticine, the imprint, sometimes it doesn't even matter how big that LEGO piece was, it's just the fact that it was there and it's left an imprint.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. And that, that's something of revelation as well. Like, because you do you sort of. You hear the word trauma and the immediate thing is, oh, something really bad has got to happen. And it can be from different people.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, but it could be, like you said, something very simple that someone said once that has just landed with you and you keep replaying that record. You can't be playing that, and you

Speaker A: don't even know that it's there. You know, because consciously, you know, our conscious mind is only responsible for five to. So even if you were to journal until the cows come home, it wouldn't come up because it's. It's not stored in your consciousness in the bit. If you think of an iceberg, it's the bit below the water that's holding the subconscious, which is a massive database of, like, your experiences, memories, feelings, emotions. Yeah, beliefs. It's all kind of there.

Speaker B: Final question before we do our thing. I've wrote this down. If we created a world where people truly felt safe to be seen, heard, and supported, how, ah, different would society look?

Speaker A: There'd be a lot more acceptance, compassion, Grace, and forgiveness. And it would be rich. Picture, uh, think of all those voices that don't feel safe to be seen and heard. We're missing out on their wisdom. We're missing out on their stories and their lessons learned.

Speaker B: Amazing, Emma. Thank you so much. Um, we've got a closing tradition.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Do this first. These are our storytelling cards. Okay. So I'm gonna. You're gonna choose a card, any card, then pass it back to me. Okay. Share a time. When, um, vulnerability deepened. A.

Speaker A: This is really fascinating that this memory has popped up, and it's actually with Rose. Um, and I had misinterpreted something that was said, and I felt a certain way about it, and I sat with it for, uh, days and days. And then I made the decision that our friendship was more important than the thing. And I wanted, uh, that connection with her. The connection was more important. So I reached out and I said, I've understood this situation, and I felt this way about it. Is that what you meant? And immediately she was like, no, that's not what I meant. What I meant was this. And as soon as she said that, then I was like, like, oh, right, I've totally just got the wrong end of the stick.

Speaker B: And

Speaker A: in the past, I've had, uh, to preserve my own safety, to protect myself, I would just cut friendships. I would just let friendships go. And so I easily could have just let that friendship go. And so it took courage to. To make that call, to say, can we have a little chat about this?

Speaker B: And

Speaker A: Rose was so grateful. She goes, I'm so glad that you brought this to me, because I would have hated that, to have gotten in the way of our friendship.

Speaker B: I love that. Love that. What an amazing way to finish. What a lovely story to share. Um, Emma, thank you so much. There was a reason I. I kept messaging to say, can you come on the podcast? I knew. What an amazing comfort. I said, I know when we. We first sort of connected and you come on the radio show and then, you know, the stuff, I've. I'll follow you. And I. I listened to you and I remember us meeting, and then I had an amazing session with you as well. And you just, um. Because so much of the stuff you talk about just really lands with me. She's talking to me. She's talking to, um. And I'm sure there's so many other people that you do. So I'm just so grateful for your time and your wisdom and your voice that you keep sharing such amazing things and the difference that you're really making in. In my life, but in so many people's lives. So thank you. Thank you for being on here and thank you for you keep doing your star.

Speaker A: My absolute pleasure. And it's. I am so grateful for the opportunity to have this conversation because like you, my intention and my purpose as well as to help healers rise is within my lifetime to see the numbers, the global numbers, numbers of suicide go down. When my cousin died, 800,000 people a year globally were dying from suicide each year. Now the number is 700,000. So even though we haven't made inroads in the UK yet, globally, it's happening.

Speaker B: Amazing. Amazing. Listen, thank you so much. Let's keep on this mission together. Um, hopefully together we're going to all make, uh, a make a difference. So thanks again. And that, as they say, is a wrap.