The Future of Gaming is Now and it’s Web3 with Karl Blomsterwall, CEO of Nibiru

Speaker A: This is Tim Dalhouse and you're listening to the Dao Talks podcast. In each episode you'll hear me talk to builders and makers of Web3. Together we'll be exploring our multi chain future, share personal stories and discuss how we're investing, experimenting and failing with the startups that define the future. So join me on this journey of discovery as I chat with these leaders, change makers and misfits about tech, life, the universe and everything. Today I'm talking to Karl Blomsterworl, CEO of Nibiro Software. It's a Sweden based company and have built the most successful, most used game on the Polygon blockchain. To give you an idea, they've sold 400 million NFTs inside of it. We're going to be talking about the future of our multi chain Web three, the challenges of end users and the opportunities for projects just like Nibira. Hey Carl, how are you?

Speaker B: Hi Tim, I'm great, how are you doing?

Speaker A: Very good, very good. Where are you? You in um, Stockholm I assume.

Speaker B: Yes, correct. I'm based in Stockholm together with our team of 35 or so Web3 enthusiasts.

Speaker A: Yeah, 35 people in the company?

Speaker B: Yeah, ah, around 35. And then we have, I would say on top of that maybe 15 or so full time consultants working around the world. Wow, 35 people in the office.

Speaker A: 35 people in the office, 15 outside. That's already a um, big team to manage and quite a payroll. So exciting. You must feel the pressure as well in the beer market. Do you? Or is everything going hunky dory?

Speaker B: No, I mean obviously there's additional pressure due to the market circumstances. We're doing okay in terms of the game in itself and its metrics are doing really, really well. I think we're, as with all startups, we soon begin to look for funding and of course that climate is a bit harsher. But I'm very positive and optimistic about our situation. The game went on chain in November 2021, um, roughly six months after that we became the biggest game on Polygon and now we're around third to fourth place across all chains. So I mean we've seen tremendous growth and I mean hopefully that's something that of course investors will pick up on when the time comes as well.

Speaker A: That's great. I'm going to pick up on that actually in a minute. But give us a rundown. Game is called Planet nine, is that correct?

Speaker B: Yeah, Planet nine or Planet ix. So essentially it's a strategy NFT based game which offers players a fun, quite Complex and challenging way to earn rewards. In our token, if you play the game right and um, very shortly like the game is made up out of four pillars, uh, we've launched three so far. The first pillar is a huge globe, so basically a digital rendition of the world, uh, where we've divided all the landmass into, into hexagonal land parcels which we call Pix. It's essentially a big marketplace. So the aim here is for users to trade their way to get a certain number of these pics adjacent to each other. And when you do that you created a territory and with these territories you could either go to our IX foundation which ah, is sort of staking and defi, you can stake them to get rewards or you can go to our second link which is called Mission Control. It's essentially a asset monetization and play to earn part of our game. It's more or less very simply put, a grid line of tiles where you stake your territories and then you can start to earn different types of assets on those. So the game in itself it's quite complex. I guess that's one of the biggest things that we're working on to make sure that we really make people understand the game and can start playing. Those are the sort of the three parts that we have now. The last part which we're launching hopefully this summer is what we call the IX arena, which is a new feature which is catering to casual gamers. So the other three parts are quite complex so you need to spend a lot of time to get into it. But the last part is really for the user who wants to do like a simple competitive 50 minute gaming on the tube with the possibility to actually earn rewards because from the other parts of the game we're funneling assets into the arena so you can play a casual game with your friend for 15 minutes without putting up any money but with the opportunity to actually win some rewards. So um, yeah, it's quite complex, it's very, very big. We took quite a different route from many of the other sort of play to earn and NFT games as you see after.

Speaker A: Very interesting. So your LinkedIn profile says you know, you're CEO gamer and web3 so who came up with the game like you already put out there, it said, you know, it's quite complex. Did you come up with the, you know, game dynamics, what is it based on and give us a rundown?

Speaker B: Yeah, so I joined uh, around six months after the company was founded, ah, the company was founded. One of my best friends, he's Been deep into crypto since 2016. Serial entrepreneur, did his first real exit and found himself looking at the next thing. Stumbled upon the Ethereum white paper and basically went all in on that. So ever since that day, he's been trying to get me over to the blockchain space and he managed to do that six months after they launched this game. So I was part of the beginning, uh, but I wasn't part of formulating the initial vision. This was in the spring of 21. We saw like the uprising of players like Axie and um, other play to earn games becoming really big. But my co founder assessed and the decision that he took was that these games are extremely niche. They're very limited and to some degree they're very linear. Like you do A and then you do B and then you do C and then you do D and basically the more money you put in, the more money you earn. So there's no game experience in that. It's more just a financial, almost like a financial thing to do. So the way that we took was let's build something which is so huge that we could twist and turn and cater to so many different changes in the game and so many routes. So we built it very, very complex and very big to be able to take so many different routes in the future. And of course we have a vision, but I think we're more aspiring to be very, very agile in the way that we're developing the game, which obviously

Speaker A: gives you the advantage to adapt and learn permanently. Right? See what works, what doesn't work, you know, address a different market. Tell me something else I'm curious about. Like when, um, we started on our side getting deeper into actually building things in Web three, we started looking a lot into and you know, I spent a lot of time really on daos. That's why it's called Dao talks as well. And you know, what we've seen or what I've seen over especially very much over the last 12 months, is a, uh, collapse of activity in the dao space. So the daos that are already there and, you know, working and fulfilling a purpose, you know, are still active and, you know, fulfilling that purpose. I don't think there's much of a change. A lot of the daos that kind of sprang up and all of the activity that were like startup daos, right, they're all gone. You know, if I had to guess, I would say the drop in activity is by somewhere, uh, you know, over 95%. Okay, what have you seen with the change in the market conditions, that's the behavior change of your players significantly. Like, is there a lot less new players coming in or is this the same? What's better, what's worse and what has stayed the same over the last 12 months?

Speaker B: Well, yeah, there's definitely been a lot of changes. But it's funny that you brought up dao because I know that when we started this, this was also back in 21 when, you know, the dao really became a thing. Like everybody wanted to create daos and everything should be governed by daos. And we also sort of embarked on that mindset. So our game, we actually have a dao structure in place for people to provide feedback, to stake their tokens and to raise questions and to vote on things. That, uh, initiative we launched pretty early. Unfortunately we haven't actually seen that much pickup, so there hasn't been that much interest from users to actually do that. In the same sense. We have also we have a number of different, like fictional in game corporations which handles different parts of our game to create our metaverse, if you will. All of them also have their own doubts. So you have like shares, what we call meta shares, where people can stake and they can actually also participate in voting. But I think the original outset that we had that, you know, everyone will jump on this, like everyone wants to be a part of, you know, the dao structure. I think we have seen a little bit of a drawback or people haven't been that enthusiastic about it. I think there's a number of reasons for this. We have a lot of, uh, Web2 users, so we didn't go for Web3 users when we started. So I think that there's probably a learning curve aspect to that. You know, first and foremost they need to understand a quite complex game and then on top of that they need to understand that, hey, I can actually participate in creating the game and coming up with ideas and voting and making a change. I think it will come more, but we didn't expect that development on the downside. But then to your question, on the market, our numbers are still growing, but not at as rapid pace. Uh, I would say that's one thing. The second thing is also I would say the willingness to spend, of course follows the market, so to speak. So when there's a bull market, people are more inclined to spend more in assets and more on assets in the game. We had the fantastic timing of launching the game when bitcoin was at 64,000. So essentially we have only been building throughout the bear market. So you know, we're very much hoping for that bull market to hit soon. I mean of course the good thing about that is that, you know, we have survived throughout this and we are very well paid for the next run when I think we will see uh, a huge mass adoption and new users. But uh, yeah, definitely things that have changed throughout these last 12 months.

Speaker A: Tell me something you said. Obviously you joined like six months into the project, already into the game. So the decision, you know, to launch on Polygon was taken already. Or did you participate in that decision or you know, what drove you guys to Polygon?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I was part of the last discussions there. I think the reason why we launched on Polygon was the fact that we are quite transaction heavy game. This digital rendition of the world with land parcels. It actually contains 1.7 billion picks. So there's a lot of transactions. Like I think we have just pure transfers. I think we have three or four hundred thousand per day. So of course we couldn't go with a layer one like Ethereum at that time at least. Ah, and then we looked at a couple of substitutes or uh, alternatives and we found that the Polygon would be the best one to launch. It was quite fun actually because before launch we have sold around 300 million of those NFTs. And when we launched on Polygon we said okay, so let's start mint. And we started minting and ah, we noticed that okay, so we clogged the blockchain completely. We would do that for you know, a foreseeable future. So what we ended up doing was basically, you know, um, rethink the whole structure and move everything to merkle trees. But the reason basically was for Polygon. It was the best solution at the time for a transaction heavy game.

Speaker A: That's good. This is something that has come up in conversations I've been having over the last few months and I want to see if you have a strong opinion there. Obviously with CK technology also Polygon is adopting this and how you said very transaction heavy and was the best choice in that time. What I'm interested in is your perspective, perspective on you know, what is labeled or what we all label like as the multi chain future of web3. Right. And what I'm wondering there is there's obviously, you know, we have the Bitcoin maximalists, right? I think everything else is shitcoin and unnecessary which I assume you're not part of it, else you wouldn't be building, you know, um, what you're building. Then there's all of those and everyone that's like more an Ethereum fundamentalist which goes like, you know, it's Bitcoin and Ethereum, there's nothing else, right. And then there's everyone else building on other chains. And you can then look at, you know, this is what's going to my mind if you go to indicators of like the largest chains or whatever. I think this is several hundred by now. I think last time was like I saw a list of 220 and I'm interested in your perspective. You know, first of all, you guys running on Polygon and then you said already, you know, brought it all into Merkle Trees, you'd be clocking Polygon. If you would build today, would you again build on Polygon or would you look at a different chain? That's the first question. Then the second question is how do you see this multi chain future? Do you think there's going to be like 3 chains or 300 chains and you know, what do you envision is going to happen there?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. Uh, I think as a company we definitely have a strategy of going cross chain and that is, you know, I think that's probably more of a near term goal than a mid long term goal. I do think that Polygon, they have their supernets, I know Avalon, they have their subnets. I think those type of scaling solutions are extremely, you know, they are extremely lucrative and definitely something, you know, we are looking to do. Basically, you know, you're having your own blockchain on top of it which leads to, you know, extreme fast, very low gas, enormous throughput, uh, and also finality time of you know, just a second or two. So I think that's one thing we're looking to do. But also just deploy on as many chains as possible to expand our exposure to new users. I think that the future is cross chain. But then you know how that is done. If it's done by you know, deploying your smart contracts on all EVM compatible chains or if it's done through like bridging partners or multi chain partners that essentially do that for you, I think that's probably a uh, strategic decision. We haven't really decided. But going cross chain for sure, that is the future.

Speaker A: Let me hook into there for a second. So when you say you're going cross chain, I heard two things, right? Like obviously if you're on Polygon, finding ways to scale faster transaction, lower cost makes ton of sense. And so when you say hey, you know, we'd be looking on other chains and you know, has to do with users. What do you see as the challenge that you have there? Is this solely about the ability to actually easily onboard users or do you see, you know, an intrinsic value somewhat being on multiple chains on the same time? Beyond the ease of onboarding users, what challenges do you guys see from your gaming and company perspective that you can solve through that? And why do you think this is important?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think there's a few challenges for our sake specifically. I mean as I mentioned, the game is quite complex and across all the different parts of the game I believe we have more than 100, 120 contracts deployed. So there's definitely just the sheer work of redeploying contracts on other chain. That's one thing. I think the other challenge is also that as I said, we're taking an approach where we want to onboard Web2 users. So for them just getting comfortable to now using Metamask to do all things Polygon and to swap to Matic to pay the gas fee and now having them do something else on another chain might also be challenging or just to explain why we're doing it, I think the benefit of going cross chain, it's really to just, you know, getting more exposure. Right. And uh, finding partnerships not only with new chains but also with interesting depths on the other chain and also bringing our current partners to other chains. So very much like a partnership focused company. We have quite a um, partnerships with both Chainlink and Superfluid and a few others. And we strongly believe in community pulling and supporting each other. So I think that's why we want to do it. But there are definitely challenges, no question about it.

Speaker A: So you would say the majority of your users is coming from Web2 still today. Would you happen to know a percentage would say, hey, from X amount of new users every month, what percentage is coming directly to the game from web2 and how many are coming effective from other chains? Do you, do you have this visibility on your data there?

Speaker B: Yes and no. I think, yeah, I don't want to say any figure. I don't know it specifically in my head, but I would say definitely over 80% probably of our wallets are wallets that are fresh, you know, that have not transacted on other chains that have not interacted with other games before. So we took this approach and it actually turned out really good. So we took this approach because we, I mean first and foremost we believe in the ethos of decentralization of blockchain like we want to all of our parts of the game to build on the blockchain. Like, even if we need to unclog the blockchain, we don't want to take away part of our game from the blockchain. We believe that it's the future. So we really wanted to make sure that we could also be a gateway for Web2 users. And while that has been costly both in time and resources, it has also proven that if you hold a user who is not accustomed to blockchain by the hand and guide them through it, then if something happens in the game, so there's a bug or there's something that needs to be fixed instead of like, you, uh, know, potentially a Web3 user saying, like, hey, this doesn't work. Like, this is a big scam. Oh, hey, you know, I need to change. They're like, hey, guys, I don't understand this. Could you support me and, you know, show it? So we have an insane loyalty to our game. Like in our cohort, if you look at the users that joined in January 20, 22, 12 months later, so January 23rd, we have 65% of them still playing. And the way that we do this is, you know, we try to be there for our users, not only, you know, in discord and in different social channels, but we actually go into those places. Like we have a guy who is in Vietnam, Philippines, China now, and he's basically filling up stadiums with people who wants to talk to him and wants to be there to understand and, you know, just being there and showing that, you know, we're real. We talk to you, we, we support you. I think that makes a lot of difference. We actually now in saw that when he, he arrived in, in Vietnam like three weeks ago. Now they have a chain of coffee shops named after Planet ix. They have branded taxi cars. Planet ix, I even saw, I think that might be fake, but I saw a plane with Planet X logo. So they're really taking this seriously and becoming a big part of their life, which is, you know, it's humbling to say the least.

Speaker A: That's amazing actually. And, you know, it's interesting you say this from that perspective because I just thought about myself when you run into trouble, right? Like, I think all of us, even after years in the space, have this, right? You go somewhere and something doesn't work, and you're actually not sure if you know it's a bug, if it's something you're doing wrong, or if you're just being a total ignorant dickhead, right? So you also don't go about, you know, Shouting at people, because I guess somehow you think it might be ridiculous, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's because of this, like, do your own research, uh, type of mentality. Right. Which, you know, in a sense makes sense that people need to understand and read up for themselves. But it also becomes like, you know, it is daunting to do the first transaction. Like, if, when you're going to send your first, uh, you know, token in MetaMask, it's like, am I doing this wrong? What does this mean? Like, okay, but now there's something else popped up that didn't do it last time. Like, it is daunting for a person. And also with the fact that, you know, everyone knows that if you send this wrong, it's gone forever. So there needs to be this, like, level of support for new users, which I guess we have, at least I hope we have. We have done better than the other.

Speaker A: I think there's an ongoing and continuous degree of excitement for certain type of people, including ourselves. I would add you and would obviously add me there that you keep on learning. And the journey into Web3 is likely as exciting or more exciting than any app or game that you can play. And, you know, connecting your personal journey into the space, obviously having somebody that, you know, can sort of speak, hold your hand and be there is of tremendous value. And I can see, obviously, how, looking at this from a business perspective, again, you know, how this is a way of creating community and brands. So that is very, very, very interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's exactly the point. So in our discord, we have, I think, around 80,000 people, and we have probably 30 or 40, 50, what we call guardians. And these are users that have took it upon themselves to guide others. And initially they didn't do it for any type of remuneration. We taught them, they listened to what we said and then they say, hey, I can actually learn. Other people listen. And I think that's the beauty when you see this community and ecosystem starting to help each other. And then we can take a step back, of course, and then now we're trying to incentivize them to, you know, have you done a good job? Yeah. Then you can get, you know, you are rewarded of assets in the game or something. But it's really inspiring to see the people without the incentive actually, you know, stepping up and say, but, hey, I know this, I can answer this question, I can support this new user. And I think that's, you know, it's very corny, but I think that's the whole Idea of Web three, do your own research. But you know, be there, support each other. Like we are still so small. Like we are not fighting against each other, we are fighting against the other. Word. Like we all want to bring this and make this better. So I think that's, it's just a beautiful thing to be honest.

Speaker A: No, yeah, I think I go back to this. There's you, uh, know, friend of mine, he became a friend through being a customer at, you know, my other business at a marketing agency over the 10 years. And this guy went into Web3, it's like at his third company now, I think in business development. His name is Pete. And you know, I think two years back I talked to him and it was like I had looked at the space from the outside still and was two years ago and he, I asked him, so, you know, it's now your third like Web3 startup, you're participating and like, why are you there? And he's like, dude, man, there's no way I'm going back into any of this, like for sure not into any of the corporate and I'm not going back into the like SaaS and freaking silicon Valley startup, uh, world, to put it simple. That's what he said. He's like, yeah, I found my people, right? And back then, you know, I was like, okay, I can't really confirm it because just didn't have the experience. And then it really, when I started working in it, you know, building stuff, I think the same thing happened. I think this is somewhat what happens to users all along, right? Like it's this opportunity to come in to realize, hey, it's totally chaotic, it's complex, it feels risky. You know, you're dealing with money. You know, like money can be lost, there's a lot of scams going on. But on the other side, there is also this really warm welcome and this helping hands of people being around you that make you feel like, wow, you know, like I'm, I'm welcome here. You know, I'm not just a customer or a user or a gamer, but there's others here and there, here, you know, like it's, yeah, it's suddenly like you turn on the light and there's others around you. Right. And I think it's a big thing, obviously.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, definitely. There is just so many nuances to this. So like I thought about this because I got a question a while back, like, how do you build a community? And it's very difficult, of course, but like there's so many small things that Matter. I remember a while back we had like a mean competition where we like rewarded people for doing mean. And then we had like a lingo competition where, you know, people come up with or, you know, we have create sort of our own way of expressing ourselves and how we talk and what like slang we use and stuff. And all of those things really, you know, makes you feel like, hey, I got a family of 80,000 people, like, and I just want to sit and chat with these people for, you know, for a few hours. It's like, it's a completely different thing. This, you know, in Web two, this never happened. And what is great about it from like a corporate perspective is that this is the best idea funnel, the best quality assurance. Like you get everything for free. Like you're handed a platter of like, hey guys, like users that are playing the game, uh, like our users, they spend like 50 minutes a day in the game and they're like writing long letters like, I love this, I love this, I love this. But I think this would be really cool to have. Could we do something like this? And it's like we've been given great ideas on a silver platter. And also like, hey guys, there's a bug here. You need to fix this. That would never happen in any Web2 company. They have a Facebook group, probably where people are complaining, but here you can extract useful intelligence of how to improve your game and how to improve your product. It's amazing.

Speaker A: Yeah, extremely exciting. Let's stick to this a little bit. I think, you know, looking at the challenges and this opportunity of community building and the challenges of users of onboarding. When I looked at your game and onboarding experience, obviously, you know, you're also providing instructions and you have the, I think you have the Le Fi widget, you know, to do cross chain swapping. But what is the onboarding experience actually for a new Web2 user? What's the typical path for your users until they're half the tokens are actually in the game? Do you have a clear picture there?

Speaker B: Actually we are in the middle of a big rehaul of our onboarding. So the onboarding so far has been partially the website. Uh, you know, we have a game book that people can read through, but also us having a lot of AMAs and supporting people over, you know, Twitter spaces or Zoom, etc. But of course, you know, if you want to onboard the next million people, that's not a feasible solution. We're working on a much better onboarding experience. I think a key component which we are introducing there is sort of a uh, you know, quest like onboarding where you say, okay, go and do this and you get rewarded by, you know, something, then do this and you get rewarded. And like step by step you're getting into the game.

Speaker A: Carl, before going into that part first, like, but how is the typical onboarding experience if you would have to say, hey, right now 80% of users are going like this path, like whatever, they go into Binance and buy Matic and then they swap to you or they people are what they're onboarding on Ethereum first. What do you know about your user's onboarding process? I'm really curious here.

Speaker B: The majority of our Web2 users that we have onboarded has been either through sales partners or you know, directly when we have been around visiting. So I think that has been the process, so to speak. And then you know, in terms of how you do it, there are guides on how you know how to download MetaMask. We have done a lot of educational videos like basically taking you from. Okay, I don't have a clue to, you know, this is when you stake your land and you get xyz. We have used a lot of like tutorials, a lot of talking to people, game books, etc.

Speaker A: So how would you recommend a Web2 user? Like whatever, my sister hears about the game from a friend, she doesn't have MetaMask installed yet. What path would you recommend? What is the fastest path or the path of like less obstacles that you uh, would recommend to a user in order, you know, to get into the game and have your token? Like what do you think today is the fastest path?

Speaker B: Path? The fastest path is to get a Web3 wallet. You need Matic to do transactions, you need uh, some ixt and that you can buy on a decentralized exchange or a few central exchanges. And then basically you know, then you're in the game because you're logging in with the wallet. So that's completely Web three.

Speaker A: But would you recommend your users to go over centralized exchange or would you say hey, you're coming for the first time get metamask. But how do I get best at tokens? Like what is the recommendation you would give like in practical steps today?

Speaker B: It depends a little bit on what the user wants to achieve. If they only want to play our game, you, uh, know, because you need tokens in your wallet to get our tokens, right? So I would say the, probably the easiest way is to go to one of the three or four central exchanges that we are listed on and with a credit card you can buy our tokens essentially and then you have our tokens and then you're basically free to play in the game.

Speaker A: So yes your token is listed. So I could go and exchange buy your token but I will also need to buy some Matic tokens and then I need to need to withdraw the tokens from the central exchange into my non custodial wallet and then I can enter, right? There's no faster path of doing this, right? Or I guess if I'm coming from Ethereum, well then I have some ether ideally and then I can cross chain swap. I do Matic and then I get your token and I have both. But I guess your users either come from Ethereum or they come from a central exchange, would that be correct?

Speaker B: Yes, I would say. So many of our new users are using central exchanges.

Speaker A: Many do you think?

Speaker B: Yeah, first time users. Because if you want to trade on a decentralized exchange, you need another token to trade it with and you need to get that somehow. And there are alternatives where you can buy directly with credit card in Metamask. So that could be a solution. But I believe most of our uh first time users are using central exchange to get access to our token. So like on our website we can sell all NFTs. Uh so when you buy NFTs or packs of NFTs on our website we actually have a credit card solution. But the problem is that we can't sell either Matic or our own ERC20 token because then we become a financial intermediary. So the tokens you need to get somewhere else. I don't have the data but I believe a lot of our first time users are coming from a central exchange where they can use the credit card to buy both Matic and our token and then just send it to the machine. What you're highlighting here is it is really the challenge of Web3 gaming, right? There's so many steps to get going and this whole process needs to be streamlined in order to really onboard the next billion people. As you know everyone is talking about

Speaker A: what do you think the solution is for that? I mean I guess you know, and you guys are big enough, you are listed right? So you can get your token directly. I'm just thinking, you know anyone that's building a new game today, right? Like you would start today with Bill and M Polygon, you're in a bear market. Even worse, right? Until you might get to potential listing which means you know you going to need to get people there's no other way. They need to onboard on to Matic and then get the token and then they need to swap and then once they've swapped they can go back and they can onboard. Right. So I guess from your guys perspective, likely if you know things became easier reducing the steps, you guys should see a significant increase in conversion from people, you know, coming to your website and ending up playing the game I guess, right?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, definitely. And so I mean if we take next bull market for example, I think the expected and hopeful, you know, massive increase in our user base, I mean that will be driven by a number of things. Essentially more people are coming into crypto as a whole which means that they're going to buy one token of some sort. And once you're on ramped your fiat into a ah, token then it's much, much easier to play around in the whole Web3 ecosystem because you can do easy cross swaps but you need more people to actually do that first transfer where you get uh, you know, fiat money into some form of crypto money. But as more people do that then it's not very difficult to swap. Super simple.

Speaker A: What would you wish for if you had, you know, one thing, one technology, one feature, maybe one regulatory change like what single thing would you think make a huge impact on adoption of your game and at large with that obviously to the Web3 ecosystem. If you had one wish, what would you wish for?

Speaker B: I mean regulatory is always a massive consideration. Not knowing exactly how uh, regulators are thinking and changing is always something that you need to keep in mind. But the single thing that will enhance our game is continue to do the same thing we're doing. I think we found like a secret sauce which actually works and I think we need to make the UI better, we need to make sure that transactions are faster. Personally, while I love the decentralization and the security of the Holy Trinity, I don't think that the regular users do care that much. So I think improving UI and onboarding is probably the two things that will ensure that we will see this continued growth in the next years to come.

Speaker A: Very good Carl. This was super, super interesting. It was a very good reminder for me how much in web3 everything is about community and I think not only out of a uh, business incentive and interest to you know, help your users or support your users, but to actually be there for them and you know, enjoy the journey with them. So appreciate that very much. This was a fantastic insight.

Speaker B: I thoroughly appreciate this chat. It was really great.

Speaker A: Carl, thank you for your time and Enjoy the rest of your day. Dao Talks is brought to you by Grindery. If you enjoyed this podcast, consider subscribing to Dao Talks on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google, or any other platform you fancy. To find out more about Grindery, visit Grindery IO. Thanks for joining me, Tim. Out.