Creating a New Banking Experience: Gnosis Pay's Vision for Web3 and Fiat Integration with Marcus and Stefan of Gnosis Pay

This is Tim Dalhaas and you're listening to the Dao Talks podcast. In each episode you'll hear me talk to builders and makers of Web3. Together we'll be exploring our multi chain future, share personal stories and discuss how we're investing, experimenting and failing with the startups that define the future. So join me on this journey of discovery as a chat with these leaders, change makers and misfits about tech, life, the universe and everything. Today I'm talking to Markus and Stefan, co founders from Genosis and Genosis Pay. We're going to be talking about their new product and how it has the potential to revolutionize payments not only for safe users, but for banks at large. The journey to it and advice for Web3 founders in the bare market. Marcos, Stefan, Genosis Pay. Welcome to this podcast. Thank you for joining. Where are you guys today? Good, thanks for inviting us, Tim. I am in Brazil at the moment. Yeah, thanks for having us Tim. I'm right now in Berlin. Usually I'm based in Lisbon, but yeah, next couple of weeks I will be here in Berlin. All right, good, then let's jump right into it. And I like to do this on the podcast rather than giving long introductions. We reached out because I was particularly excited to see what you guys are doing with Genosis Pay. There isn't really that much information available online about it. So I started gathering up the pieces and I was like, well, I'm just going to invite you guys over and ask you directly, what's it all about? So tell me a bit of the backstory. I would love to hear. You know, you guys are entrepreneurs, I'm an entrepreneur. I like to hear what problem that you guys see. Was this something that just came up on the way or that you've been thinking about for the last 10 years and now was the opportunity to do it. What problem did you see? And you know, how did it come about? It's actually kind of funny story of how everything started because the original idea to Gnosis Pay came out of a ski retreat. So me and Markus were both joining a ski retreat organized by the Founders Pledge, which is an organization that allows founders to contribute to philanthropic courses. And yeah, we were in the ski retreat and we had a lot of time like talking about what we are doing in our daily lives and I explained them what we are doing at Gnosis and what kind of infrastructure we are building and previously was the CEO of SaltPay, a big payments infrastructure company based in UK. He explained what they are doing at SaltPlay at the time. And it kind of became obvious that at this point we have solved a lot of the problems that payments is also facing, just in a decentralized way. And out of those discussions came the idea of, okay, let's work together to bridge those two worlds together. Because right now both worlds are kind of isolated. On the one hand you have crypto, which has been kind of developed in its own bubble over the last 10 years. And then of course we have the more traditional payments industry which also has been going great. But there has been limits in terms of how innovation was applied. And yeah, ultimately we have to connect those two worlds otherwise we're not going to make any difference in any of those. And that's what we try to explore, like how can we bridge the gap between real world actual payments today and how we do payments on blockchain. One question. So when was that ski resy? When was that ski retreat and where were you guys? All right, and it was 2021, February I believe in Lazard in the French Alps. Good. All right. And so you were both attending Marcos, you were back then. The company you're working for at that point was, was that your startup or you were working for a different company and just happened to produce this crossover? No. So the funny thing is throughout my career I've always cheered. I've always been part of founding teams early stage, but I was actually not founder of Solpay which these days is also known as Theia. They have recently changed name. But yeah, like first five guys in the ground, we brought the business from zero to very large in very short period of time, became one of the most rapid fintech grows in UK but also Europe. So I mean the funny thing is you see crypto projects and things being very good at solving extremely complex technology. But what not aware or at least majority of them from those that I met till now are not aware that actually in payments or in editing world you're actually using 1967 standards built today and majority of the largest players or banks in the world, precisely 92 out of the top 100 are still relying on mainframe and well, old fashioned technology to run most of its operation or transactional operation. So when I start giving those data to Stefan, obviously with his brilliant architecture model, he was like, well it's not possible. And the more we research, the more we realized that actually crypto has resolved most of the problems. We were just not connected to the Fiat world. So initially it took us some time to figure out how to do this. Therefore we took so long to Basically kick off. But as soon as we understood the angle we said time to jump in and basically make this happen. So we started as a joint venture between Saltpet and Novit and later on we understood the focus and the size of this opportunity was too big to be under either entity A or B. So we basically spin off and started the new story. That's a very good introduction, very interesting, love it. Now I personally would also tend similar like to your guys experience to someone to say hey there's something that works with 1976 technology. Like oh my God, it must be terrible. You know, in other cases you actually go like oh, it's actually a proven technology, right? Like and why change a working system? And you could make that argument. So what I'm curious about is rather than thinking about hey, this is an old technology. The question really being what did you guys see that was fundamentally wrong for the customer in the end that was a result of this outdated technology and what was the opportunity that you saw coming out of this for the different stakeholders participating in the system? So even though it's an it67 completely agree with you. If you actually look in payments and banking, you hardly ever have an issue where you migrate from country A to country B. So you run out Bali if you have a card from Europe or US or any other place in the world. And as long as there's a visa sign, MasterCard sign, you should be able to spend your funds from a very far away country seamlessly and not even have to think about replica of how the money goes from your bank account to the merchant that you are committing to pay. Now even though it's all sound beautiful on the front end, the thing is in the back end you keep increasing the cost to maintain this legacy. So imagine now you have an iPhone trying to talk to a 1967 standard. You can tell if it's not a technology entity, right? So they have something called the processor to handle the transaction on their behalf. Now the processor was also created in the 90s so they needed somebody else to handle what they could not handle with the evolution of technology. So a gateway then a gateway was also not able to fulfill the latest technology. So they basically call it psp. Then the PSP was actually not able to do it anymore. So then they call another aggregator and then there's another aggregator to the degree that today we have at minimum 10 players participating in this money movement between your bank account and the point of sale. Not to make this a super theoretical thing, but if I would actually link this to the reality that I've been fighting for the past 15 years. The more players, the more cost of capital for this transaction to happen, the more cost of capital for this transaction, more expensive to the producer and to the buyer, which means you have a direct impact in a country's gdp. So if I basically think about the cost of a transaction being 2 to 3% in the best case scenario, you actually these days, back in the days, used to be a fact distributed between five parties. Now you're talking about minimum profits between the 10 parties. Whereas actually all they're doing is fulfilling this latest connectivity because the previous party is not able to scale any more of their systems. So in our vision was, okay, we cannot change the front end. Consumers and sellers or merchants and cardholders, they know what they know, which is they know how to put a card in a terminal, they know how to put a platform, they know how basically to commit between one another and the backend. It's nobody's interest that they're all wasting money to maintain the legacy. It's everybody's interest to have something that is more efficient and scalable. So let's start with the backend. Let's make something that is more scalable. Let's plug into fiat and Web three. I don't make a distinction between two worlds. I actually think the world is up to those that are consuming. So if the Web3 provider wants to only do things for crypto users, then we should have a way to speak with them. If there's a fiat provider that wants only to do fiat transaction, let's have a way to speak with them. But if you have a hybrid world where one wants to go to the other side because they feel like they can support one another to be bigger, then let's support those. Dars. I guess this is a bit of the background, maybe stuff you want to complement here. I think you gave a pretty extensive summary already. But yeah, ultimately I think what we see is the one end you have crypto, which is light years ahead in terms of technology with what the current legacy payment world is running on. At the same time, it's very clear you cannot replace technology from one day to another. So you have to find a hybrid approach, otherwise you're not going to make it effectively. We like to compare it a bit to Skype. Skype was the first protocol that allowed peer to peer phone calls. I was a very early user of Skype and was great for me to call other friends on the Internet, but at the same time there was still the old landline system. And I still had to use the old system in order to call my parents and so on at some point. Then Skype introduced Skype and Skype out, and that allowed me then to actually call from my Skype account into the old landlines and also even allowed my parents to call me via Skype while using the old landline system. And of course, we look at the infrastructure today, then this call here, as well as every other call, is running over voiceover ip and no one's using landlines anymore. And we see we have to get a similar kind of transition for the financial transactions right now. We have on the one hand, blockchain transactions, on the other hand, like legacy, like old world kind of transactions happening. These are MasterCard. We have to connect those two to allow a transition towards actually transacting more on decentralized technologies. And that's what we're building with no space. The bridge. How do you interact between those two worlds? Very good. I love the analogy. And you talk about, you know, Skype in, and particularly I get Skype out, you know, money going out. I think the idea of, you know, just like saying, hey, my parents still use landlines in 2000 or 2005 or 2010 or whatever, and, you know, I'm on my computer and I can call and I can call out a landline makes a lot of sense as much as to say, hey, you know, everyone who has any money today has a credit card and they're going to keep on using that credit card in their transactions. Right? And it's this interface between the merchant, you know, online and offline, and the consumer doing the spending. And that might all change, but that is not at the forefront of the change. Right? You guys see this as something that this might change or not or it will change, but this doesn't change tomorrow. Right? It's a habit. It's. The system is going to stay. Do we agree? Yeah. Good. So I see that. Right. And then on the other side of the system, you see this, you know, Fiat world and there's the blockchain, crypto web3world. And obviously the traditional finance world runs on old systems that can be improved. But as I see it, you guys are also not in the immediate focus on trying to change the world of finance. You correct me if I'm wrong, but you're not running around and trying to sell your system to banks. What I'm seeing is, hey, we get your credit card for your save, right? So you also have a very particular vision about bridging Blockchain technology to this more traditional credit card world. What did you see there specifically? I'm interested in how this big vision then ended up becoming a specific product with specific features. And I would assume Stefan, with your experience and background in genosis and safe, you must have seen something with your safe users where you said hey there's really something that what everybody's asking for or nobody asked for it, but you guys thought it's a great idea. Let's go into the product and a specific solution maybe once more. Gregson, we absolutely want to change the financial world. We all want to do that, right? Of course we all want to do that. But I think similar to kind of how Skype, even though today Skype's not an important company anymore, it had a significant importance in transition to digital communication. And we see the need or the opportunity to accomplish something that will allow something similar to financial transactions. And indeed our goal is banks will operate and work with us, that banks operate on losses pay. So that indeed is exactly what we want. Of course that is not possible right now. And of course the low hanging fruit is to onboard crypto native users because we know them very well, we know how we can reach them through our channels, but we're also talking to Neobanks to make them aware of the opportunities and they also become increasingly aware of the opportunities in blockchain and we will try to actually integrate them as well on their end with and make their users also users of our infrastructure. So that is definitely on the kind of longer midterm to long term plan. But then yeah of course coming back to like what is actually the product right now and why do we build it so obviously today if you want to offer anything that is competitive, it has to be accepted everywhere effectively otherwise you're not going to be able to distribute the product. It's a two sided marketplace. And Visa Mastercards have of course the biggest reach with 80 million merchants. So the great thing is we don't necessarily have to onboard 18 million merchants ourselves. You can just tap into their network at the same time. What we build is we build the bridge right into their network to allow users to actually spend crypto from their non custodial accounts. And that is actually a very nice value proposition and we don't even have to look far to see validation of it. Look at the amount of cards and volumes done by Binance and Crypto.com with their own cards which actually operating at pretty bad conditions for their customers. So if you're using the Binance card, Binance will say it's 0% fee, but in fact there's a spread on every crypto that you're spending about 5%. And so using those cards actually very costly. It is still something that many customers like to use because it's for them the most convenient option actually to spend their crypto. And yeah, now we are lowering this bar even further. You don't even have to go to a centralized exchange. You can keep your money on the network, you don't have to trust any of those exchanges and you can still spend everything that you have very Easily anywhere visa, MasterCard are accepted. First of all for the user, it's a better user experience. And for those that are concerned about selling custody, which increasing amount of users is for them it's also just a safer, like a more let's say safe way to operate and make sure that centralized exchange cannot steal your funds. And basically like we saw this also especially with the safe that after FTX got well unfortunately went bankrupt, we saw just the days after this happened a massive amount of funds flowing out of other centralized exchanges as well. Like literally billions and billions of dollars left. Binance and other centralized exchanges. People didn't trust them anymore and said they wanted to have full control over their funds. And so they moved all the funds in safe contracts and now the funds are in safe contracts. They still want to have the utility that they had previously on Binance. That's what we offer with this card. So now you can spend those funds easily anywhere. Let's pick up a series of questions there. So the first one is obviously the issue of trust in centralized exchanges is a big thing. So would you be able to put a number to what was the aftermath of FTX actually meant for safe in terms of increase of usage? Were you able to correlate in numbers the events? Like you obviously had organic growth somewhere. But what did you notice? I'm just on the side question here, it's very concrete numbers because obviously we track everything on chain. You could see literally like billions leaving Binance and moving into safe contracts. So that happened just a few days after FTX blew up. That was very clearly correlated to this event. So I think we could see that this of course was like at beginning very like high flow out of funds that kind of eventually faded out. But of course it is still a very significant amount and I think in general awareness is increasing of self custody being important and especially Binance like you just saw this with another exchange, like which exchange was okx. I guess I'm not entirely sure. Anymore. But one of them, there's very high doubt that the USDT balance is actually what they hold on the exchange right now. So just generally you should never trust any of them because why should you like ultimately if you have possibility to mitigate it. And at this point it's not really a big user experience issue anymore. So I think the experience right now is pretty good and it's more about increasing awareness. You know, I always think about it. I'm happy for this in general and happy for you guys. The Genosis and Safe team. That's kind of the silver lining of the FTX debacle, right? You know, increase awareness about self custody and shift to self custody and you know, multisig wallet. So again that's the silver lining on it. Now going back to Genosis pay here. I get the point about the self custody and not trusting a centralized exchange obviously. And I think the value proposition for somebody that already is doing self custody and is running on safe, the value proposition is pretty obvious what I'm interested in. If you take this self custody aspect out of the equation for a second. Practically speaking, at our company do have a Binance account. We have a bank account and we have safe account and we move the money between it. We have all of our 99% of our money in a safe, but obviously we need to fund the credit card. So we send money to binance, you know, 10k here, pay the software, you know, 10k to the other thing, you know, another bank and pay it there. And this obviously I see an administrative aspect there but. But there's the convenience. I see that and I see the point about not trusting centralized exchanges and relying on self custody. Would you be able to point out other specific benefits where you say would say hey, here's another few reasons why you really want to use this. You hinted already at a few, but I would love to kind of like spell them out. Of course I think ultimately what we are doing is we made payments composable. Right. Like the beauty of blockchain is that you have a composable system where everyone can enhance the experience because permissionless system. And the same is now what we do with Noses Bay. We create a permissionless system that any developer can enhance and interesting that I think can influence also how the relationship between merchants and customers can be. Previously this was kind of very like there was not a really direct connection. You just pay and that's it. Now I think we can open the door for the customer to share more information with the merchant if they want to we can create interesting new kind of loyalty programs. For example, the merchant could allow the customer to mint a poop or like an NFT showcasing that they did a certain purchase in the past. I think a lot of different things that can be done potentially. I think also on the Visa transaction side, we can try to replace certain parts of the transaction with more decentralized technology. I think there's a few good examples, like 3DS is a good example that is used for two factor authentication of larger online transactions. Right now if you do a 3Ds transaction, then you have to log into your bank account, confirm and that's it. Now we can do it with a signed message over your private key. Many other cool things for example, you could get credit on while you're spending. If you have assets you can use, add collateral, borrow like stable coins against your collateral, spend on the fly, reduce your fees that you have for credit because they're much cheaper on defi when you actually spend credit via credit card. So I think there are many ways we can enhance experience. But yeah, Marcus, what do you want to add? Well, I would just add one thing. You have to look at dozaspay right now as an infrastructure layer that enables this world to dock. And you look at the tribe owners and let's say it's MetaMask or Zyrium One Inc. I mean you name it, those are the ones creating specific value to the specific group of people that want to follow that tribe or want to use that tribe. So our job is to make sure that first of all they have a revenue stream from now onwards. Because essentially by actually having a card connecting to the decentralized balance are now basically generating money to themselves that they can use this as incentive back to their own tribe. And you can use that as cash back. You can use that in loyalty programs. You can connect to multiple types of projects that can enable them to become the first decentralized bank. So with this card you're connected to a ChatG account, right? Which is a safe address where you can see your balances in their app and their user will basically have their experience when using this card. Then they can also be connected to a savings account, investment account. And how do you extract those funds you can basically control from the app. You unlock a new world of a new version of a Neobank that actually can offer different types of yields, different types of financial products that the Web3world has experienced. But the fiat world, the regulars do not have access today. And maybe one add on to this, because you started your question with why changing the technology? Because what we're doing right now is the back end change to enable this. But the front end is beautiful. We have terminals that can access cards in 80 million merchants. We have phones, you can talk to those terminals and those ordinary merchants with billion plus card holders. So for them, the world as this. And then you have this new range of service providers that can come in and start thinking about the app driving. And we're Skype, we're just the voiceover ID saying you choose whatever, you choose whatever service. I'll just basically help those guys to migrate from point A to point B in a much more efficient way. Very good. I hadn't thought this far and I didn't see this from the presentation, but that makes a lot of sense and I think that is very, very interesting. Now talk me and you know, the people listening to this or watching this through. How does this actually work? Because my first thought was when I looked at it, when I looked at the website, I was like, so how does this actually technically work in the background? And you know, I went over the FAQ and the first thing that came, you know, that popped into, you know, my face was like, okay, yeah, it's based in Europe. And I was like, okay, so I do need a company again or I need a person or I just need a safe. Or I can in the future do it with my media mask or any externally owned account or what happens behind the curtain today and where is it possibly going and where still the limitations of this, of course I can give you the gist of it. What we are going to launch with first is an implementation on Gnosis Chain, Layer one. So Gnosis Chain, for those who don't know, is Layer one network that is like equivalent to Ethereum, running the exact same stack in terms of execution and consensus. Clients and Gnosis pay. The first version will run directly on this network. So what happens when you actually pay? When you pay, a message is sent via the POS terminal to a payment, like through a payment processor to us, we have integrated this payment processor such that at the time when the user wants to pay, we can verify cryptographically that the user has given us permission to withdraw the amount he wants to spend from his account. To start with, we only accept Euro tokens. So it's very simple for us to reason about what kind of mod we have to deduct from the user's balance. When we have the cryptographic proof that we can do this, then we confirm to the Issuer that this payment is okay and we deduct this from the user's account. So it's pretty straightforward. And this account. So when you say you're deducting from this account, clarify for me again, what is this account? Very important question. So every user on losses pay is using a SAFE account under the hood. And for those who don't know, safe, SAFE is a smart contract account. A smart contract account allows to define the rights under which the account can be accessed. So it's different from an EUA account. UA account is controlled by a private key. Either you have the private key or you don't either have control to everything or nothing. The smartphone account, you can define the access rights under which you can access this account. And what we did is we define rules that allow us as a payment processor to access your account, the amount of money you are willing to kind of give to us for payments, when you actually do a payment, and that's implemented as a rule into the smart contract account and save. And the great thing is user doesn't have to think about gas costs or any of this when doing a transaction. He just taps and pays and the rest is being taken care of by us at the same time. It's the long custody account. So if you say, can I think about this like the withdrawal limits, where I can say, hey, you know, I can withdraw this and this without multisig. It's basically delegating this and saying, hey, the payment processor can take whatever $100 a day and do whatever, and if it's larger than that, I'm getting an alert, you know, I need to whatever, sign for it or increase the limit or whatever. Is that, is that how to think about it? Yes. And that is already part of the smart contracts of the current safe, Is that correct? That is correct. That was a generic function that was already available. Or did you guys proactively deploy this with genosis pay in mind? So this was built by us already quite some time ago, but it also perfectly fits this use case. There would be even more sophisticated ways to protect the user's account. But this is good for the start because it's heavily tested, been used in production for many years now. And for now, also based on our user research, that's a very acceptable, let's say access, right, that users are willing to give to us in order to pay. So what you can effectively do, you can, with a spending module, that's how we call it. You can define exactly who, what kind of asset, what kind of amount and what kind of time frame can be accessed be your SAKE account. And so what the user does when he signs up for gnosis pay he says like okay, I want to spend a certain amount of euro tokens per day and we are the only one processors allowed to access those funds. And with those constraints in mind we can set everything up very easily. And users yeah well protected. And of course if user wants to spend more than this then he has to update those settings. Then there's also straightforward a little bit like if you hit a limit on your credit card and you have to kind of top it out menu via your phone app. Same process but this time everything's cryptographically insured and all the assets in your USA are otherwise protected through your self custodial wallet. And to answer the question as well, it works with any UA account. As you know you have an UA account who is an owner in the safe and this UA account can be any obviously so it can be a MetaMask account any UAE wallet basically that is working also with notice chain works. But most of them have integrated not exchange. So for most of them don't have to change or install new wallet, they can just use whatever they have. One important add on even though we're blocking the funds in those safe accounts at the moment of the authorization. So let's say you're in front of the customer, sorry in front of the merchants. You transact $20. We need to block those $20, remove those $20 from your account. It goes into a smart contract which is not owned by Noses Bay and we don't have the rights to touch those funds. That contract basically is in the possession of the issuer which is the one responsible for settling within Visa and the acquired network that eventually pays the merchant. So essentially we do of course the liquidation of this contract using a partner in Europe, which is Monarium as majority of the countries are in euro currency. But again for the different countries different stables can be used. And eventually we're going to also allow different assets, crypto assets to be used in this transaction. So it's 100% secure that it will not be touched by us. It's only between the user and those that are allowed to touch funds which are licensed and regulated. No. Yeah, the issue is. Right, like that was exactly the question. Okay. And that answers pretty much my next question with that, which is why you're rolling out in a specific region because it depends on the issuer. And I now see the relationship between save the contract you described the issuer card and the merchant very, very clear. So in order to concrete for anyone who's listening and wants to, you know, sign up early and get on the list, this means you need to be a person or a business in Europe to be able to do that. Or is it going to be available for individuals as well as businesses or just one of the two modular. It starts with individuals in EEA and uk, so including Switzerland, including Gibraltar, but essentially individuals that would like to add the cart that live in those addresses can subscribe to those first batch. Subsequently to that it comes the businesses in the same region and hopefully in the next podcast we can announce the US and also Asia, which is going to be in our roadmap for the first 12 months. So hold tight, guys in the US and guys in Asia will come in. That's very interesting. Specifically in Europe, does anyone already have a card except for you guys likely testing it? Are you already rolling out to users or are you still holding back? And there's still things that you need to get done. So we have not rolled yet to users. We're going to do it closer to babcom and that had to do with some bureaucracies on the business side. So production slots for cards to be manufactured. I mean, silly things. So we focus too much on the technology side. You can't just mint the cards. Yeah, not yet. I think we were super stressed about the technology at first. It is a very complex journey to connect both worlds. And we left a bit aside agreements with manufacturers and like Stefan likes to say, technology in our story seems to be the most complex part. But it's only 30% of the issue, probably 70% of the issue lies on teaching regulators well what it is that we're doing and well, getting there you want, and allowing us to basically push those cards. We have insurers issuing cards, which per definition, we are in the regulated path. We have to prove that this is the best way of moving funds like ftx. Thank you guys for actually being what you were because you've made our life a little bit easier in terms of explaining to the future that the way you were set is not the way to go. And I guess that helps a lot to explain to dummies like me. Yeah. How crypto can actually be a great solution. Perfect transition into this towards the last question there. So one is, when do you expect the cards to actually roll out in Europe? Nobody's going to hold you to it, but what is your guess at this point? So we have this, as Waka said, we have this conference defcon that's organized by us in mid September in Berlin, hopefully at defcon might be a bit later. But you're not talking about many months later, like if later, when we're talking about a couple of weeks later. We want to of course make sure that the product we are selling is really mature and we're not facing many issues. So we're going to test now a lot. I'm paying a lot with my card these days to see that it works in every situation, but the expectation is sometime in September. Very good. And Markus, you just touched on this as part of not printing the cards, but in terms of like talking to regulators for everyone that is not in the space of regulation and just an end user apart from regular banking regulation, when it comes to issuing cards, are you affected through being a protocol and not a company or. And how far is, you know, genosis to one or another legal entity actually having to be involved in this? And last, you know, is this going to be a big difference between what you're doing in Europe and what you're planning to do in the US or is it pretty much all the same? Great question. First of all, the beautiful thing about this is as a user with decentralized funds, like I mentioned, you can have your checking account, savings account, investment accounts. So you are allowed to have whatever types of accounts, the funds that you want to basically transact in the point of sale. Those funds need to have a clearance from AML Money Laundry, the typical practice of validating the funds origin. And then again you put them in a specific safe address which is essentially the same address that we can basically connect to the cards and then you use the moment of transaction. Do we need to have a regulated entity as a nose pay? No. But at the same time, again, if you go back into the analogy on Skype or Skype, to ensure that voice over IP was the future, in that moment in time which was that present, we are taking additional precautions and run on things to relax regulators or to basically give them comfort and introduce them to the industry in a much more gentle way. So almost like holding their hands. Come with us. Look what we're doing. Here's how we're doing. That's why you should be okay with this model. And that's not. We have to, but that we are. Well, the additional steps we're taking to secure this layer two that we're building and ensuring that only legit money, traced money is basically sitting in that layer. We have a separate entity configuration as noses pay, but that has to do More with the scalability of the regulated world. Think about it. In the US bridging in your question to the US you need to have a slightly different setting than in Europe, because Europe recognize stables as E Money. So it's much easier to basically connect stables to the point of sale. Whereas US it's still. I mean, some people say it's pretty okay the way it is for us to move in, but at the same time, the Bin sponsor or the banks that would need to be connected in the US they're still treating us digital assets is something that I don't want to touch. And therefore, with the help of Visa, which by the way has been very friendly and supporting us at this stage, we're actually able to have a solution in the US that actually can be rolled out. So from a technology point of view, we're ready to go pretty much everywhere. So whatever setting we have in Europe also works in the US Also works in Asia. But for us to be allowed to issue cards in those places, that's where we need to go and knock the doors, get a local player to be with us in every time we're issuing the cards until we have our own entity that is allowed to have the right directly to users. Got it. Makes a lot of sense. I see how that is coming together. Guys, in respect to your time, I want to ask a few questions. Going off topic, I don't know if you want to add anything to Genosis Pay here. I obviously could ask a bunch more questions, but I feel we covered the fundamentals. You know, for anyone who is using SAFE today and is wondering what this is about and how this is going to work and can I trust it and what's the difference to my Binance card and so on. Is there anything you guys want to add before I slightly change subject for five minutes? Yeah, maybe just one final thing. I mean, the invitation right now is for all wallets out there in web3world. First of all, they want to consider revenue model. We have a revenue model ready to go for EEA customers and the uk. So if they want to be with us, we're happy to basically sign them and make sure that they can issue cards with their brand for their tribe. And then we have different models that they can basically choose from. And I think that's one call that I would like to make. A second call that I would like to make is this is just a kickoff. It's not about having everything right. But we have considered the most pressing and problematic ingredients to ensure that there is no longer a barrier between Web3 and Chiat, and hopefully with you guys in Web3 we can actually do a lot further. So an invitation to please reach out if you feel like there's things we can do together. We're definitely happy to collaborate and make sure that we can do something much stronger. Maybe one call to action on my side. Go to nosepay.com and you can sign up already for the waitlist and we will let you know as soon as you can actually get the card. Yes, very good. Dao Talks is brought to you by Grindery. If you enjoyed this podcast, consider subscribing to Dao Talks on Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google, or any other platform you fancy. To find out more about Grindery, visit Grindery IO. Thanks for joining me Tim. Out.