The Week in Jobs: CEO Confidence Declines, Top AI Bosses Are Split, And Fraud Is On The Rise

1 00:00:00,000 - > 00:00:01,360 Pete Newsome: Welcome back to the weekend jobs. 2 00:00:01,439 - > 00:00:03,120 Today is Friday, May 29th. 3 00:00:03,200 - > 00:00:04,400 Peter, how are you today? 4 00:00:04,959 - > 00:00:05,440 Peter Porebski: I'm good. 5 00:00:05,599 - > 00:00:08,560 It's good to be back after Memorial Day weekend and uh back 6 00:00:08,560 - > 00:00:10,240 to talking about what's going on in the job market. 7 00:00:10,400 - > 00:00:11,279 Pete Newsome: It's good to see you again. 8 00:00:11,359 - > 00:00:12,480 You left me hanging last week. 9 00:00:12,560 - > 00:00:15,599 I had to struggle through alone, but here we are back together, 10 00:00:15,679 - > 00:00:18,399 and it's going to be a lot better show because of it. 11 00:00:18,800 - > 00:00:20,000 Peter Porebski: I'm glad to be here. 12 00:00:20,239 - > 00:00:23,280 Pete Newsome: Well, this week, believe it or not, we are not 13 00:00:23,280 - > 00:00:25,679 going to talk about AI, and we're not going to talk about 14 00:00:25,679 - > 00:00:26,800 job cuts. 15 00:00:27,120 - > 00:00:27,679 Peter Porebski: I know. 16 00:00:28,239 - > 00:00:31,679 It's nothing uh about AI or layoffs is in the news at all, 17 00:00:31,760 - > 00:00:32,000 right? 18 00:00:32,079 - > 00:00:33,759 Uh that's I didn't see anything. 19 00:00:34,079 - > 00:00:37,200 Pete Newsome: Unfortunately, that is far from the case. 20 00:00:37,439 - > 00:00:41,679 We will obviously be talking about AI and job cuts because 21 00:00:41,679 - > 00:00:44,240 there's more of it, and that's just the world that we're in. 22 00:00:44,399 - > 00:00:46,799 And we keep hoping that we're going to get through a week 23 00:00:46,799 - > 00:00:47,679 without some major cuts. 24 00:00:47,759 - > 00:00:48,320 We had a couple. 25 00:00:48,399 - > 00:00:49,759 We'll get to that in a minute. 26 00:00:50,079 - > 00:00:53,439 But AI is always in the news lately. 27 00:00:53,520 - > 00:00:56,079 I don't think a day goes by where I don't see a news story 28 00:00:56,079 - > 00:00:57,759 about something to do with it. 29 00:00:57,920 - > 00:01:01,759 And um, you know, is that the question is, is it good for the 30 00:01:01,759 - > 00:01:03,119 job market or is it bad? 31 00:01:03,359 - > 00:01:06,159 Have you have you changed your opinion on that in the last two 32 00:01:06,159 - > 00:01:06,319 weeks? 33 00:01:06,400 - > 00:01:08,719 Because say things are moving so quickly, I wouldn't be surprised 34 00:01:08,719 - > 00:01:09,439 if you did. 35 00:01:09,840 - > 00:01:12,879 Peter Porebski: No, I mean, uh it's everything that I see, it's 36 00:01:12,879 - > 00:01:16,959 still I I just got an email uh the other day um talking to a 37 00:01:16,959 - > 00:01:19,359 manager and they were complaining about the the level 38 00:01:19,359 - > 00:01:23,840 of candidates coming in from it just with AI, pure AI resumes 39 00:01:23,920 - > 00:01:25,920 and screening that they were not putting any effort into it. 40 00:01:26,000 - > 00:01:28,799 There, I mean, we've talked ad nauseum about one-click apply. 41 00:01:28,879 - > 00:01:32,079 So yeah, um, I I know there was a uh there was a zip recruiter 42 00:01:32,239 - > 00:01:34,799 survey that came out that that specifically talked about this, 43 00:01:35,040 - > 00:01:38,959 but it's uh AI is part of the job process. 44 00:01:39,120 - > 00:01:42,000 Right now, it's part of the hiring process, and um not 45 00:01:42,000 - > 00:01:43,439 everybody's happy about it. 46 00:01:43,760 - > 00:01:44,640 Pete Newsome: Nor should they be. 47 00:01:44,719 - > 00:01:47,840 So we'll also talk today about fraud in the job market and 48 00:01:47,840 - > 00:01:52,000 share some stats and data that we have been looking at a lot 49 00:01:52,000 - > 00:01:52,400 recently. 50 00:01:52,560 - > 00:01:56,239 It's it's caused us to have to change how we recruit, how we 51 00:01:56,239 - > 00:01:56,719 screen. 52 00:01:56,799 - > 00:01:57,840 It's unfortunate. 53 00:01:57,920 - > 00:02:03,439 I I consider it a sad truth, but it is absolutely necessary given 54 00:02:03,840 - > 00:02:07,760 just the volume of fraud that is taking place. 55 00:02:07,920 - > 00:02:10,400 So it's come to our doorstep recently. 56 00:02:10,560 - > 00:02:12,479 We'll talk about that a little bit. 57 00:02:12,719 - > 00:02:17,199 But before we get to that, let's start with just the state of 58 00:02:18,159 - > 00:02:22,240 what CEOs are thinking right now, because some interesting 59 00:02:22,240 - > 00:02:23,520 numbers came out on that today. 60 00:02:23,599 - > 00:02:29,280 The conference board puts out their CEO report on confidence, 61 00:02:29,439 - > 00:02:33,680 and it dipped in a huge way in the report that was released 62 00:02:33,680 - > 00:02:34,319 this quarter. 63 00:02:34,639 - > 00:02:36,479 Peter Porebski: Was that a surprise to you to see, you 64 00:02:36,479 - > 00:02:39,759 know, I didn't know it went to uh 47, it was 59 was the 65 00:02:39,759 - > 00:02:41,919 confidence index um in Q1. 66 00:02:42,080 - > 00:02:44,400 So was that a surprise to see that these come, you know, 67 00:02:44,560 - > 00:02:47,280 leaders of these companies are not feeling great about it? 68 00:02:47,680 - > 00:02:49,680 The the direction, no. 69 00:02:49,840 - > 00:02:51,840 Pete Newsome: I I it's no surprise that there was a 70 00:02:51,840 - > 00:02:52,240 decline. 71 00:02:52,319 - > 00:02:56,080 But what was shocking to me really was the size of the 72 00:02:56,080 - > 00:02:56,560 decline. 73 00:02:56,639 - > 00:03:00,080 I've been tracking this report for a couple of years now, and 74 00:03:00,080 - > 00:03:04,240 it moves a point, maybe two, occasionally three, but I 75 00:03:04,240 - > 00:03:07,360 haven't seen a dip like this before, and it it really jumped 76 00:03:07,360 - > 00:03:07,680 out. 77 00:03:08,159 - > 00:03:11,919 Peter Porebski: Yeah, I mean in retrospect, after what we've 78 00:03:11,919 - > 00:03:14,319 been talking about for the for the past couple of weeks, it's 79 00:03:14,319 - > 00:03:14,960 not surprising. 80 00:03:15,039 - > 00:03:17,919 I mean, we just see layoff after layoff after layoff. 81 00:03:18,080 - > 00:03:21,599 Um, you know, CEOs talking about cutting their workforces. 82 00:03:21,680 - > 00:03:24,400 I know that was part of the uh the report was that there was 83 00:03:24,479 - > 00:03:27,840 you know, 31% expect to cut their workforce, you know, 84 00:03:27,919 - > 00:03:31,199 rather than I think it was 28% that wanted to expand it. 85 00:03:31,280 - > 00:03:34,719 That's that's not uh a great direction to be going in. 86 00:03:34,800 - > 00:03:37,520 You know, you're seeing the majority, almost a almost a full 87 00:03:37,520 - > 00:03:40,479 third of CEOs answering are saying that they are going to be 88 00:03:40,479 - > 00:03:43,840 laying off or letting go of a portion of their workforce. 89 00:03:44,159 - > 00:03:46,240 Pete Newsome: Yeah, and you hit the nail on the head because 90 00:03:46,240 - > 00:03:48,639 we've seen the numbers, we've seen the cuts, but it hasn't 91 00:03:48,639 - > 00:03:53,039 really caught up in what's impacting the job market or in 92 00:03:53,039 - > 00:03:54,319 the surveys like this. 93 00:03:54,479 - > 00:03:57,680 And now that is right in our face. 94 00:03:57,759 - > 00:03:59,360 So you can't ignore those kind of numbers. 95 00:03:59,439 - > 00:04:01,919 You can't ignore a decline that's so steep. 96 00:04:02,080 - > 00:04:06,479 Um, and so it really to me is is an indicative of what we can 97 00:04:06,479 - > 00:04:08,159 expect through the rest of the year. 98 00:04:08,319 - > 00:04:12,560 Now, today, as we're recording, potentially the war in Iran 99 00:04:12,639 - > 00:04:13,520 could be ending. 100 00:04:13,759 - > 00:04:16,079 There was yeah, Trump put out a tweet about that. 101 00:04:16,160 - > 00:04:19,519 But how many tweets have we seen that the how many ends has this 102 00:04:19,519 - > 00:04:19,680 been? 103 00:04:19,759 - > 00:04:21,519 Peter Porebski: I thought the war was over weeks ago. 104 00:04:21,839 - > 00:04:23,920 Pete Newsome: This this might actually be the one. 105 00:04:24,079 - > 00:04:26,560 We might uh we might be here finally. 106 00:04:26,720 - > 00:04:30,959 Um, and the state of things can and will change if that happens. 107 00:04:31,040 - > 00:04:33,680 The market reacts every time that there's an announcement, 108 00:04:33,920 - > 00:04:40,000 but we won't see the job market truly become stable until this 109 00:04:40,000 - > 00:04:40,639 is real. 110 00:04:40,800 - > 00:04:45,040 And we can laugh about it, but this impacts everyone's lives. 111 00:04:45,279 - > 00:04:50,399 And hopefully, hopefully, this is yeah, we're finally there. 112 00:04:50,480 - > 00:04:53,920 We finally can get past this and get back to normal because we've 113 00:04:53,920 - > 00:04:56,879 been waiting for so long for normal, right? 114 00:04:56,959 - > 00:05:00,000 We wanted to get through the election, then the tariffs 115 00:05:00,000 - > 00:05:05,439 kicked in, then this war has become a reason for companies 116 00:05:05,439 - > 00:05:07,439 everywhere just to wait and see. 117 00:05:07,519 - > 00:05:09,839 And so we've got to get past this wait and see mode. 118 00:05:10,160 - > 00:05:13,120 Peter Porebski: Well, you know, it's also just the the level 119 00:05:13,120 - > 00:05:17,199 that or the quickness that AI is developing, um, AI and other 120 00:05:17,199 - > 00:05:20,480 tools, but I know, yeah, stability is what everybody 121 00:05:20,480 - > 00:05:20,720 wants. 122 00:05:20,800 - > 00:05:22,800 Everyone wants things to get back to normal. 123 00:05:22,959 - > 00:05:25,360 I don't know that we're ever going to get there right now 124 00:05:25,680 - > 00:05:28,639 because things are just developing at such a rapid 125 00:05:28,639 - > 00:05:29,040 speed. 126 00:05:29,120 - > 00:05:31,920 Is is this, and I hate saying that, you know, the new normal, 127 00:05:32,000 - > 00:05:35,680 but is this the new normal where just every six months there is 128 00:05:35,680 - > 00:05:38,560 another huge thing that's gonna be an upset, and companies just 129 00:05:38,560 - > 00:05:40,160 have to learn to kind of deal with it. 130 00:05:40,240 - > 00:05:43,519 And the ones that are flexible and are able to kind of sail the 131 00:05:43,920 - > 00:05:46,160 rough seas are the ones that are gonna do good. 132 00:05:46,319 - > 00:05:54,240 Uh I I feel like we are not going to necessarily get to a 133 00:05:54,720 - > 00:05:58,480 stable like we was in the past ever again, just because of even 134 00:05:58,480 - > 00:06:01,519 if things in the news kind of quiet down a little bit, there's 135 00:06:01,519 - > 00:06:04,800 always gonna be these huge technology technological jumps 136 00:06:04,800 - > 00:06:07,600 that are happening at a more and more rapid pace. 137 00:06:08,079 - > 00:06:09,519 Pete Newsome: Yeah, you're you might be right. 138 00:06:09,600 - > 00:06:10,959 I won't be surprised if you're right. 139 00:06:11,040 - > 00:06:16,480 I think it's unfortunate uh if you are, but we've have been in 140 00:06:16,480 - > 00:06:18,800 that state since COVID hit. 141 00:06:19,040 - > 00:06:22,079 Pre-COVID, it seemed like we we had that stability that you're 142 00:06:22,079 - > 00:06:23,600 talking about for a period. 143 00:06:23,920 - > 00:06:26,399 And it's just been tumultuous since. 144 00:06:26,480 - > 00:06:28,800 We've now we've seen some positive waves, right? 145 00:06:28,879 - > 00:06:33,680 The all the hiring that took place post-COVID, that was good. 146 00:06:33,839 - > 00:06:38,000 We saw great numbers in the economy, but we're yeah, we it 147 00:06:38,079 - > 00:06:42,000 it seems like you can't rely on anything for very long right now 148 00:06:42,240 - > 00:06:46,160 because every tweet, every news report is going to impact the 149 00:06:46,160 - > 00:06:49,680 market and delay decisions, delay long-term decisions 150 00:06:49,759 - > 00:06:50,319 anyway. 151 00:06:50,560 - > 00:06:52,560 Peter Porebski: Yep, that's a hundred percent right. 152 00:06:52,639 - > 00:06:55,519 And we got the pre-code pre-COVID world, post-COVID 153 00:06:55,600 - > 00:06:57,839 world, and this is just how things are nowadays. 154 00:06:58,000 - > 00:07:01,839 Um, hopefully it'll go, and I hate being pessimistic about it. 155 00:07:02,000 - > 00:07:06,000 I'm just uh, you know, I don't really see things slowing down 156 00:07:06,000 - > 00:07:08,879 because of the way the way everything is we've seen in the 157 00:07:08,879 - > 00:07:11,920 last months, you know, last six months, even the last the last 158 00:07:11,920 - > 00:07:14,160 year, just how crazy things have advanced. 159 00:07:14,240 - > 00:07:18,959 Um, I I'll uh I'll wait, I'll be, I'll, I'll wait and see. 160 00:07:19,199 - > 00:07:20,560 Pete Newsome: Well, we're all gonna wait and see, right? 161 00:07:20,639 - > 00:07:22,000 We're gonna but we're gonna be living it too. 162 00:07:22,079 - > 00:07:27,680 We really this is um going to impact us on an increasing 163 00:07:27,680 - > 00:07:28,000 basis. 164 00:07:28,079 - > 00:07:29,040 I we agree on that. 165 00:07:29,120 - > 00:07:34,079 I think the only X factor is how quickly it's all going to happen 166 00:07:34,160 - > 00:07:35,199 and and to what degree. 167 00:07:35,279 - > 00:07:36,639 There's a lot of debate about that. 168 00:07:36,720 - > 00:07:41,439 And we may as well talk about that now because we now have 169 00:07:41,439 - > 00:07:46,639 seen Sam Altman, the CEO of OpenAI, go public this week and 170 00:07:46,639 - > 00:07:51,759 say that he was wrong about the impact on jobs that was that he 171 00:07:51,759 - > 00:07:52,560 predicted. 172 00:07:52,800 - > 00:07:55,439 Um, and I I you know do you do you believe him? 173 00:07:55,519 - > 00:08:00,959 I mean, this is a guy who says a lot of things that um seem 174 00:08:00,959 - > 00:08:02,000 self-serving. 175 00:08:02,319 - > 00:08:06,879 You know, we've seen the CEO of Anthropic, uh, Dario Amade, who 176 00:08:06,879 - > 00:08:09,360 is the doomer in this scenario. 177 00:08:09,519 - > 00:08:12,319 Um, Sam Waltman was kind of in that camp. 178 00:08:12,480 - > 00:08:15,519 Now he seems to be more positive, but I have a very 179 00:08:15,519 - > 00:08:18,879 difficult time taking anything these guys say at face value 180 00:08:18,879 - > 00:08:20,319 because they're making so much money. 181 00:08:20,480 - > 00:08:23,360 You just have to wonder what their motive is behind it. 182 00:08:23,920 - > 00:08:25,439 Peter Porebski: I that's exactly right. 183 00:08:25,600 - > 00:08:29,279 Like I don't I I don't trust anybody that I don't know what 184 00:08:29,279 - > 00:08:33,200 their motivation is in this, and it's very clear what their 185 00:08:33,200 - > 00:08:37,200 motivation is, and it's to make sure that their companies are 186 00:08:37,200 - > 00:08:38,559 being valued as highly as possible. 187 00:08:38,639 - > 00:08:43,840 And I I can't help but feel like it's suspect timing that Altman 188 00:08:43,840 - > 00:08:45,200 is coming out saying he's pretty wrong. 189 00:08:45,360 - > 00:08:47,840 There's no, you know, there's entry-level jobs aren't going 190 00:08:47,840 - > 00:08:51,919 away, all of these things at the same time that you've got, you 191 00:08:51,919 - > 00:08:55,039 know, anthropic saying yes, it is, and and that you've got the 192 00:08:55,039 - > 00:08:58,559 Pope coming out with his encyclical saying that AI is a 193 00:08:58,559 - > 00:09:03,120 threat to like humanity, and that public perception seems to 194 00:09:03,120 - > 00:09:03,279 be. 195 00:09:03,440 - > 00:09:06,159 I mean, maybe it's not in the general populace, but uh online 196 00:09:06,399 - > 00:09:09,840 at least it's becoming louder that people are seemingly 197 00:09:09,840 - > 00:09:13,200 turning a little bit against some of the rapid AI 198 00:09:13,440 - > 00:09:16,559 advancement, and that hurts Altman's bottom line. 199 00:09:16,639 - > 00:09:19,279 So him, it's in his interest to say, oh, everything's gonna be 200 00:09:19,279 - > 00:09:19,840 fine, actually. 201 00:09:20,000 - > 00:09:20,879 Never mind. 202 00:09:21,519 - > 00:09:25,200 Pete Newsome: So, so we we we broke the seal, we talked about 203 00:09:25,200 - > 00:09:28,639 politics within minutes, and now we're talking about religion. 204 00:09:28,720 - > 00:09:32,080 So we're we're just violating all of the rules of today, 205 00:09:32,159 - > 00:09:32,639 apparently. 206 00:09:32,799 - > 00:09:33,840 But yeah, how about that? 207 00:09:34,000 - > 00:09:38,399 So the Pope has he, in fact, he not only came out a couple of 208 00:09:38,399 - > 00:09:41,360 days ago with some thoughts and comments, but he put out a tweet 209 00:09:41,360 - > 00:09:44,799 that I just happened to see earlier today where he was just 210 00:09:44,799 - > 00:09:48,960 reinforcing that message, and he's very concerned. 211 00:09:49,120 - > 00:09:55,840 I I in it what's what I find fascinating is that AI is still 212 00:09:55,840 - > 00:09:59,440 not on the radar screen of a lot of people in the workforce, a 213 00:09:59,440 - > 00:10:02,639 lot of people whose jobs are potentially going to be impacted 214 00:10:02,639 - > 00:10:05,440 in the very near future to a significant degree. 215 00:10:05,759 - > 00:10:09,440 But you know, here's a leader of the Catholic Church going on 216 00:10:09,440 - > 00:10:10,799 record with his thoughts. 217 00:10:10,879 - > 00:10:14,879 So it's it's fascinating to me that it's caught his attention 218 00:10:15,120 - > 00:10:18,639 and he's you know, he's raising a pretty big warning right now. 219 00:10:18,960 - > 00:10:20,879 Peter Porebski: Yeah, I mean, and it's interesting because 220 00:10:20,879 - > 00:10:24,320 he's he's really one of one of, if not the biggest person that 221 00:10:24,480 - > 00:10:27,440 I've seen that's come out, you know, against it, where where 222 00:10:27,440 - > 00:10:30,639 we've had a lot of these CEOs saying, yeah, AI is advancing, 223 00:10:30,720 - > 00:10:34,000 it's gonna get rid of all these jobs, it's gonna, and nobody 224 00:10:34,000 - > 00:10:37,120 seems to be giving any like, oh, well, here's how we're gonna fix 225 00:10:37,120 - > 00:10:39,440 it, or here they're just yeah, it's gonna destroy the 226 00:10:39,440 - > 00:10:39,919 workforce. 227 00:10:40,080 - > 00:10:42,639 That's that seems to be kind of the message that's been we've 228 00:10:42,639 - > 00:10:45,360 been seeing from a lot of these CEOs come out. 229 00:10:45,440 - > 00:10:48,480 And so it's it's uh only I I figured it was only a matter of 230 00:10:48,480 - > 00:10:51,120 time before somebody, and um, I was surprised to see that the 231 00:10:51,200 - > 00:10:54,799 the Pope was the first uh really big one to come out, you know, 232 00:10:54,960 - > 00:10:59,120 with this this very thought-out you know argument against the uh 233 00:10:59,279 - > 00:11:02,399 the destruction of the you know the human in the workforce, I 234 00:11:02,399 - > 00:11:02,639 guess. 235 00:11:02,879 - > 00:11:05,679 Pete Newsome: Well, you touched on something that is also 236 00:11:05,919 - > 00:11:07,039 extremely interesting. 237 00:11:07,200 - > 00:11:12,080 So if how much of an impact AI is going to have, positively or 238 00:11:12,080 - > 00:11:15,039 negative, negatively, if that's a million-dollar question, the 239 00:11:15,039 - > 00:11:18,399 trillion dollar question is what do we do about it? 240 00:11:18,639 - > 00:11:19,360 Peter Porebski: Yeah, exactly. 241 00:11:19,679 - > 00:11:21,519 Pete Newsome: And so it's great to have these warnings. 242 00:11:21,600 - > 00:11:25,519 And we've seen as you as you alluded to, Jim Farley, Ford's 243 00:11:25,519 - > 00:11:29,519 CEO a few months ago, said that he predicts massive white-collar 244 00:11:29,519 - > 00:11:32,320 job loss, up to 50% white-collar job loss. 245 00:11:32,399 - > 00:11:34,879 And you can't comprehend the severity of that. 246 00:11:35,039 - > 00:11:40,799 It's easy to say, it gets in the news for a day, half a day, a 247 00:11:40,799 - > 00:11:43,120 quarter of a day, and then it disappears. 248 00:11:43,679 - > 00:11:48,159 And if you stop and look at that statement on its own, this is 249 00:11:48,480 - > 00:11:50,960 this is unbelievably significant. 250 00:11:51,360 - > 00:11:55,200 And Verizon CEO just a couple of weeks ago, he said that he 251 00:11:55,200 - > 00:11:58,559 predicts up to 30% unemployment. 252 00:11:58,720 - > 00:12:02,480 He didn't even uh caveat to say white collar, he just said 253 00:12:02,480 - > 00:12:05,279 unemployment in the next two to five years. 254 00:12:05,440 - > 00:12:09,200 This is we we can't comprehend how devastating the impact would 255 00:12:09,200 - > 00:12:12,399 be if these guys are even directionally close. 256 00:12:12,720 - > 00:12:15,519 Peter Porebski: Well, it's it's you know, I know we we read 257 00:12:15,519 - > 00:12:18,399 these articles probably more than than many people do in the 258 00:12:18,399 - > 00:12:18,639 average. 259 00:12:18,879 - > 00:12:21,200 It's it, but it just feels like a little bit like chicken 260 00:12:21,200 - > 00:12:23,200 little, like we're you're standing on, you know, this 261 00:12:23,200 - > 00:12:24,879 railroad watching the train come down. 262 00:12:25,039 - > 00:12:25,759 That's gonna hit us. 263 00:12:25,919 - > 00:12:27,840 That's gonna, it's coming, that's gonna hit us, and 264 00:12:27,840 - > 00:12:29,279 nobody's like doing anything about it. 265 00:12:29,360 - > 00:12:31,759 Everybody's like just pointing out that there's a train that's 266 00:12:31,759 - > 00:12:34,639 gonna hit us, and everybody just kind of stands there, nobody 267 00:12:34,639 - > 00:12:36,720 makes any moves, nobody does anything about it. 268 00:12:36,799 - > 00:12:40,000 Um, and that's that's kind of how it's it's felt, um, at least 269 00:12:40,000 - > 00:12:42,480 recently, with all of these these people coming out saying, 270 00:12:42,639 - > 00:12:44,559 yeah, it's gonna be devastating. 271 00:12:45,600 - > 00:12:46,879 Sucks for everybody else, I guess. 272 00:12:47,039 - > 00:12:49,519 Pete Newsome: Like, I know that that's that's where I always end 273 00:12:49,519 - > 00:12:50,000 up with this. 274 00:12:50,159 - > 00:12:54,799 So you see Dario Amade in the the message that he sent, I 275 00:12:54,799 - > 00:12:58,080 think it was in January, when he wrote a very long letter 276 00:12:58,240 - > 00:13:04,000 basically predicting uh just a huge negative impact as a um as 277 00:13:04,000 - > 00:13:05,279 a result of AI. 278 00:13:05,600 - > 00:13:07,039 Then why are you still doing it? 279 00:13:07,200 - > 00:13:08,240 Why are you still building it? 280 00:13:08,320 - > 00:13:10,559 And he's saying, yes, we're putting in guardrails and we're 281 00:13:10,559 - > 00:13:13,679 trying to do our part to prevent it, but it doesn't appear that 282 00:13:13,679 - > 00:13:13,840 way. 283 00:13:14,000 - > 00:13:16,799 Claude is getting better every single day. 284 00:13:17,039 - > 00:13:20,879 And perhaps we're hypocritical because we're users of it, we're 285 00:13:20,879 - > 00:13:24,799 using it to our advantage from a business standpoint, because it 286 00:13:24,799 - > 00:13:28,240 would be you know, it'd be crazy not to, right? 287 00:13:28,399 - > 00:13:31,120 I mean, we we would put ourselves at a competitive 288 00:13:31,120 - > 00:13:32,639 disadvantage, consciously. 289 00:13:32,799 - > 00:13:34,960 And so that that's a question, right? 290 00:13:35,039 - > 00:13:38,159 Why, you know, if if you think it's bad, why are you 291 00:13:38,320 - > 00:13:39,759 perpetuating it? 292 00:13:39,919 - > 00:13:44,000 Yeah, um but the people ultimately in charge, they're 293 00:13:44,000 - > 00:13:45,600 not inclined to stop it, right? 294 00:13:45,679 - > 00:13:48,879 I mean, and it and whether they could or not is an entirely 295 00:13:48,879 - > 00:13:49,600 different question. 296 00:13:49,759 - > 00:13:51,840 And I think no is the answer to that. 297 00:13:52,000 - > 00:13:54,320 I I don't I don't think there's anything to stop. 298 00:13:54,399 - > 00:13:56,320 So maybe it's if you can't beat them, join them. 299 00:13:56,399 - > 00:13:56,879 I don't know. 300 00:13:57,039 - > 00:14:02,320 Peter Porebski: Uh I it's yeah, I mean, I AI is a tool just like 301 00:14:02,320 - > 00:14:05,919 anything else, and I think that it can be used in in a correct 302 00:14:05,919 - > 00:14:09,840 way, but it doesn't, it just seems like that's kind of you 303 00:14:09,840 - > 00:14:13,440 know a secondary or even you know tertiary thought behind uh, 304 00:14:13,519 - > 00:14:15,440 you know, just seeing how fast we can go. 305 00:14:15,519 - > 00:14:18,000 And I know that you know people make the argument, well, if if 306 00:14:18,000 - > 00:14:20,080 we don't do it, then other countries are gonna do it and 307 00:14:20,080 - > 00:14:21,200 then we're gonna be left behind. 308 00:14:21,360 - > 00:14:25,759 And if if one person decides to to try and you know slow down be 309 00:14:25,840 - > 00:14:28,080 and and review these things, well, what do you do about the 310 00:14:28,080 - > 00:14:30,000 other people, you know, the other nine people who aren't 311 00:14:30,000 - > 00:14:30,879 going to do that? 312 00:14:31,120 - > 00:14:34,240 And I I don't know the answer to that, but it does seem a little 313 00:14:34,240 - > 00:14:37,360 bit you know frustrating and uh frankly annoying when you get 314 00:14:37,360 - > 00:14:39,440 the you know people that are that just keep saying the same 315 00:14:39,440 - > 00:14:43,120 thing over about how it's gonna be you know monumentally 316 00:14:43,120 - > 00:14:46,960 destructive or or whatever um to the to the workforce and to the 317 00:14:46,960 - > 00:14:51,200 economy, and then offer, I mean, I say this as we're pointing out 318 00:14:51,360 - > 00:14:55,919 also, offer no uh no concrete solutions, but you know, at 319 00:14:55,919 - > 00:14:59,360 least I'm not in a position to uh to be any a policymaker on 320 00:14:59,360 - > 00:14:59,519 that. 321 00:14:59,600 - > 00:15:02,799 So maybe that's an area where I don't know, govern government or 322 00:15:02,799 - > 00:15:03,440 regulatory. 323 00:15:03,519 - > 00:15:04,480 I know you you love that. 324 00:15:05,039 - > 00:15:07,360 Pete Newsome: Well, yeah, though they're trying, I mean, Cal, you 325 00:15:07,360 - > 00:15:10,399 weren't here last week, but I did talk about how California 326 00:15:10,399 - > 00:15:14,080 just signed an executive order to trying to protect workers uh 327 00:15:14,240 - > 00:15:18,480 uh against job loss from AI, trying to give incentives for 328 00:15:18,480 - > 00:15:20,399 companies to retain workers. 329 00:15:20,720 - > 00:15:23,039 So that is something that can be done. 330 00:15:23,200 - > 00:15:25,519 Yeah, the the incentives for sure. 331 00:15:25,679 - > 00:15:30,320 Um but at the same time, Trump didn't sign the executive order 332 00:15:30,320 - > 00:15:36,559 that he was scheduled to sign um about AI and protecting new 333 00:15:36,559 - > 00:15:40,000 releases from coming out to vet them before they were released 334 00:15:40,000 - > 00:15:42,799 to the public for national security purposes. 335 00:15:42,960 - > 00:15:46,080 So it appears, at least at the federal level, they've backed 336 00:15:46,080 - > 00:15:48,159 off putting guardrails in place. 337 00:15:48,399 - > 00:15:51,840 So the things continue to run full steam ahead. 338 00:15:51,919 - > 00:15:54,480 I I don't think it's gonna stop, and I don't think they can stop 339 00:15:54,480 - > 00:15:54,639 it. 340 00:15:54,799 - > 00:15:58,159 Um we're gonna have to figure out how to deal with it. 341 00:15:58,320 - > 00:16:01,840 But I let me say this before we move on, because I promised last 342 00:16:01,840 - > 00:16:04,159 week in your absence that I would find some good news. 343 00:16:04,320 - > 00:16:09,360 And so as it relates to AI and jobs, there's a couple things 344 00:16:09,360 - > 00:16:12,080 that are positive that we're seeing software engineering 345 00:16:12,080 - > 00:16:16,960 openings are up 18% year over year on deed, while all openings 346 00:16:16,960 - > 00:16:18,159 fell 4.3%. 347 00:16:18,799 - > 00:16:25,360 So there is a very valid case to be made right now that AI is 348 00:16:25,679 - > 00:16:29,039 increasing the number of software developer openings. 349 00:16:29,120 - > 00:16:32,799 And I would have told you six months ago the opposite would be 350 00:16:32,799 - > 00:16:33,039 happening. 351 00:16:33,200 - > 00:16:36,000 And a lot of people think the opposite is happening right now. 352 00:16:36,240 - > 00:16:39,039 So that's what what just leads to the confusion. 353 00:16:39,200 - > 00:16:40,159 But that is good news. 354 00:16:40,240 - > 00:16:42,639 And and I promise that I would deliver that. 355 00:16:42,720 - > 00:16:44,080 Does that surprise you? 356 00:16:44,159 - > 00:16:46,480 That I mean, that's a that's a pretty big number, 18%. 357 00:16:47,039 - > 00:16:49,120 Peter Porebski: Initially it does, but then I think it's you 358 00:16:49,120 - > 00:16:50,159 know, what level are those? 359 00:16:50,240 - > 00:16:52,480 Are those mid to senior level software developer? 360 00:16:52,639 - > 00:16:55,840 Are they if they were if they were including a good amount 361 00:16:55,919 - > 00:16:58,799 that were entry-level software developer, I would be surprised. 362 00:16:58,960 - > 00:17:02,559 Um, mid to senior level, I'm not because we're not at the level 363 00:17:02,639 - > 00:17:05,519 or you know, the area right now where AI can completely replace 364 00:17:05,519 - > 00:17:05,759 it. 365 00:17:05,839 - > 00:17:08,799 They it can do basic tasks, but you still need a human to review 366 00:17:08,799 - > 00:17:12,240 it because I know even Claude that the it can make you know 367 00:17:12,240 - > 00:17:15,839 easy mistakes that you need to actually understand how to code 368 00:17:15,920 - > 00:17:17,519 to point them out, to fix them. 369 00:17:17,680 - > 00:17:21,039 So we are not at the the stage where uh it can be completely 370 00:17:21,039 - > 00:17:23,279 autonomous without uh a human intervention. 371 00:17:23,599 - > 00:17:26,880 Pete Newsome: So a new Claude version came out yesterday, Opus 372 00:17:27,119 - > 00:17:27,839 4.8. 373 00:17:28,400 - > 00:17:29,440 Peter Porebski: The honest one. 374 00:17:29,920 - > 00:17:33,759 Pete Newsome: Well, I I so I I typed in how many days of the 375 00:17:33,759 - > 00:17:36,400 week include uh the letter D. 376 00:17:36,880 - > 00:17:41,119 And right out of the gate, it nailed it with three as the 377 00:17:41,119 - > 00:17:41,759 answer. 378 00:17:42,000 - > 00:17:46,880 And it corrected itself and said, My bad, I I missed 379 00:17:46,880 - > 00:17:47,920 something obvious here. 380 00:17:48,000 - > 00:17:49,279 It's actually six. 381 00:17:49,440 - > 00:17:51,440 Peter Porebski: So that's you're absolutely right. 382 00:17:51,599 - > 00:17:53,839 I was wrong to you're right to point that out. 383 00:17:54,480 - > 00:17:57,279 Pete Newsome: And it's so it it got it wrong twice. 384 00:17:57,680 - > 00:18:00,319 It this is just where we are right now. 385 00:18:00,480 - > 00:18:03,519 Um, but it did point out that Wednesday has two D's. 386 00:18:03,680 - > 00:18:07,359 So it at least uh maybe it subtracted one of those from the 387 00:18:07,359 - > 00:18:08,480 seven it should have been. 388 00:18:08,640 - > 00:18:09,440 I don't know. 389 00:18:09,759 - > 00:18:13,039 But that and and I think this is also why some people are 390 00:18:13,039 - > 00:18:16,240 dismissive of everything that's happening, because they point to 391 00:18:16,240 - > 00:18:20,559 things like that, and it's fun to laugh at, but at the same 392 00:18:20,559 - > 00:18:24,319 time, not a day goes by where it doesn't blow my mind with how 393 00:18:24,319 - > 00:18:26,720 advanced it is and how effective it can be. 394 00:18:26,880 - > 00:18:30,960 So that's I I suspect why so many people still haven't bought 395 00:18:30,960 - > 00:18:35,119 into its potential because they just focus on what it can't do 396 00:18:35,119 - > 00:18:38,640 perfectly yet, and while disregarding all of the amazing 397 00:18:38,640 - > 00:18:39,440 things it can do. 398 00:18:39,839 - > 00:18:42,480 Peter Porebski: Yeah, and and I was I was just reading uh an 399 00:18:42,480 - > 00:18:45,359 article um it must have been yesterday or the day before, 400 00:18:45,519 - > 00:18:48,880 where uh people were talking about um the psychological 401 00:18:48,880 - > 00:18:52,720 effect of workers with AI, is where you they're at it's 402 00:18:52,720 - > 00:18:56,799 actually degrading people's critical thinking skills just 403 00:18:56,799 - > 00:19:00,880 because AI answers everything with a very confident tone, even 404 00:19:00,880 - > 00:19:04,480 when it's wrong, and people just accept it at face value. 405 00:19:04,720 - > 00:19:09,440 And a good worker needs to understand to check, you know, 406 00:19:09,599 - > 00:19:12,720 trust but verify with AI and not just take it at face value. 407 00:19:12,799 - > 00:19:16,480 And it's way easier to just oh, it sounds so confident, it 408 00:19:16,480 - > 00:19:17,359 always gives me an answer. 409 00:19:17,440 - > 00:19:20,400 It all it never pushes back, it never says I don't know. 410 00:19:20,720 - > 00:19:24,000 And you know, that's uh that's a dangerous road to go down 411 00:19:24,079 - > 00:19:27,519 because as we we've seen, like it'll it'll just miss easy 412 00:19:27,519 - > 00:19:30,480 things where if you don't know what to look for, you you might 413 00:19:30,480 - > 00:19:31,359 make a mistake. 414 00:19:31,680 - > 00:19:33,599 Pete Newsome: So, in other words, just like most humans, 415 00:19:33,839 - > 00:19:35,920 yeah, exactly is what you're saying. 416 00:19:36,079 - > 00:19:41,359 Um, so yeah, that and and that's why I believe that at least for 417 00:19:41,359 - > 00:19:44,720 the foreseeable future, the more technical you are, the more 418 00:19:44,720 - > 00:19:48,480 valuable you you become because you someone has to know what to 419 00:19:48,480 - > 00:19:49,519 call it out on. 420 00:19:49,759 - > 00:19:54,400 And if you're a hack like me doing vibe coding and asking 421 00:19:54,400 - > 00:19:58,240 Claude to write programs, but you don't know how they function 422 00:19:58,240 - > 00:20:02,000 technically behind it, which I do not, um, I'm not gonna be 423 00:20:02,000 - > 00:20:02,720 able to fix what's wrong. 424 00:20:02,799 - > 00:20:05,680 So I I have to rely 100% on its accuracy. 425 00:20:05,920 - > 00:20:10,160 And we know, we know 100% is not where we are right now, not 426 00:20:10,160 - > 00:20:10,640 quite yet. 427 00:20:10,880 - > 00:20:13,359 Peter Porebski: Yeah, that's the that's the uh the pro tip to the 428 00:20:13,359 - > 00:20:16,000 candidate on the market is make sure you have the the technical 429 00:20:16,000 - > 00:20:18,079 skills and you understand at least the foundation. 430 00:20:18,160 - > 00:20:21,359 You don't need to be able to do all of the coding, but you need 431 00:20:21,359 - > 00:20:24,160 to understand why something is wrong on, you know, at least on 432 00:20:24,160 - > 00:20:25,359 a on a surface level. 433 00:20:25,519 - > 00:20:26,640 Pete Newsome: So absolutely, absolutely. 434 00:20:28,880 - > 00:20:31,039 Peter Porebski: You want to talk about the uh the the zip 435 00:20:31,039 - > 00:20:32,640 recruiter survey that came out? 436 00:20:32,880 - > 00:20:34,079 Pete Newsome: Yeah, let's talk about that. 437 00:20:34,160 - > 00:20:37,920 But I do want to give one more good point, good bit of good 438 00:20:37,920 - > 00:20:41,440 news is that LinkedIn's chief economist says AI has created 439 00:20:41,440 - > 00:20:44,559 roughly 1.3 million new job openings. 440 00:20:44,799 - > 00:20:47,279 So that supports everything we're saying right now. 441 00:20:47,599 - > 00:20:51,200 We see loss, but we're seeing new opportunities. 442 00:20:51,359 - > 00:20:56,720 And I suspect that for years to come, maybe maybe indefinitely, 443 00:20:56,960 - > 00:21:00,160 we will see new titles, new positions that never previously 444 00:21:00,160 - > 00:21:00,480 existed. 445 00:21:00,640 - > 00:21:03,759 One of the new hot ones right now is a forward engineer, if 446 00:21:03,759 - > 00:21:04,799 you've heard that phrase. 447 00:21:05,119 - > 00:21:09,279 And you know, companies need people to interpret the AI as 448 00:21:09,279 - > 00:21:11,920 we've been talking about, to sit between the business and the 449 00:21:11,920 - > 00:21:13,359 technical team in a different way. 450 00:21:13,599 - > 00:21:17,359 So while certainly there's opportunity loss, there's 451 00:21:17,359 - > 00:21:19,359 opportunities that are going to be gained for those who are 452 00:21:19,359 - > 00:21:19,920 paying attention. 453 00:21:20,000 - > 00:21:23,279 And that is always what our message is with this, as much as 454 00:21:23,279 - > 00:21:23,599 anything else. 455 00:21:23,680 - > 00:21:24,960 And one of the main reasons why we're doing this. 456 00:21:25,200 - > 00:21:29,599 Yes, it's a weekend jobs and we talk about news, but everyone 457 00:21:29,599 - > 00:21:34,720 needs to be aware of what the impact of of all of this is, and 458 00:21:35,039 - > 00:21:37,279 not far off in the future, but right now. 459 00:21:37,440 - > 00:21:39,440 I mean, these things are playing out as we speak. 460 00:21:39,599 - > 00:21:41,920 So yeah, so we did get some good news. 461 00:21:42,079 - > 00:21:45,599 We'll take it where we can find it, but let's let's move on to 462 00:21:45,599 - > 00:21:48,319 uh to what ZipRecruiter put out this week with their new hire 463 00:21:48,480 - > 00:21:49,119 survey. 464 00:21:49,440 - > 00:21:52,079 Peter Porebski: Yeah, they uh they they finally are on on 465 00:21:52,079 - > 00:21:55,440 board with us talking about uh that AI is now part of the the 466 00:21:55,440 - > 00:21:59,759 hiring process um and that how you know messy it's making. 467 00:22:00,960 - > 00:22:05,039 So 35% of new hires encountered AI in the hiring process. 468 00:22:05,119 - > 00:22:08,720 Uh, you know, 22% was in the uh first quarter. 469 00:22:08,799 - > 00:22:10,640 So that's a it's a it's a huge jump. 470 00:22:10,799 - > 00:22:13,599 I expect maybe the next quarter it'll jump even further. 471 00:22:13,759 - > 00:22:17,039 You know, AI users uh received double the job offers of 472 00:22:17,039 - > 00:22:20,640 non-users, and then 39% of new hires in AI require rules had 473 00:22:20,640 - > 00:22:24,000 offers rescinded versus 16% overall, which is it's kind of 474 00:22:24,000 - > 00:22:26,160 crazy, you know, just just to see that. 475 00:22:26,480 - > 00:22:28,480 Pete Newsome: Yeah, that that is that is crazy. 476 00:22:28,640 - > 00:22:32,799 I'm I'm not sure what that's driven from. 477 00:22:32,960 - > 00:22:34,079 Yeah, one of one of the complaints. 478 00:22:34,400 - > 00:22:36,079 Peter Porebski: I gotta think it's from it's just from you 479 00:22:36,079 - > 00:22:39,839 know post uh, you know, a combination of their survey, but 480 00:22:39,839 - > 00:22:42,400 maybe they're taking some posting information from their 481 00:22:42,400 - > 00:22:43,680 own board in there. 482 00:22:44,079 - > 00:22:48,640 Pete Newsome: Yeah, I I I'll be shocked if that you said the 483 00:22:48,640 - > 00:22:51,519 numbers going to increase in the next quarter in Q3. 484 00:22:52,480 - > 00:22:54,799 I it it will, it absolutely will. 485 00:22:55,119 - > 00:22:57,119 But I'm still surprised. 486 00:22:57,440 - > 00:23:01,759 I'm not surprised anymore, but I I'm okay, I'm still surprised 487 00:23:02,079 - > 00:23:07,599 that not every company who does recruiting at scale is jumping 488 00:23:07,599 - > 00:23:08,640 on this train yet. 489 00:23:08,880 - > 00:23:12,799 You and I just gave a reference to a company this week with the 490 00:23:12,799 - > 00:23:16,240 product that we use, and they're hesitant, right? 491 00:23:16,319 - > 00:23:17,920 They don't know that they want to use it. 492 00:23:18,000 - > 00:23:20,799 And we say we hear these stories constantly. 493 00:23:21,519 - > 00:23:28,079 And I we know from using this how beneficial it's been to job 494 00:23:28,079 - > 00:23:32,079 seekers and recruiters because we're AI is helping cut uh 495 00:23:32,079 - > 00:23:34,400 connect humans together faster, right? 496 00:23:34,480 - > 00:23:36,880 The right humans with real recruiters. 497 00:23:37,039 - > 00:23:41,039 Um, but a lot of people just see it and think it's a negative. 498 00:23:41,440 - > 00:23:43,200 You have to embrace it at this point, don't you? 499 00:23:43,440 - > 00:23:45,519 Peter Porebski: Well, there's a key word in there that's 35% of 500 00:23:45,519 - > 00:23:47,440 new hires encountered AI. 501 00:23:47,680 - > 00:23:50,720 I would guess that the amount of companies using it is much 502 00:23:50,720 - > 00:23:53,519 higher and that candidates don't even realize it's there. 503 00:23:53,680 - > 00:23:56,880 You know, that there's AI sorting through resumes, do 504 00:23:57,119 - > 00:23:59,680 putting them into different stacks, do you know, there is a 505 00:23:59,839 - > 00:24:02,880 there's a ton of tools that are used that the candidate has no 506 00:24:02,880 - > 00:24:03,200 idea. 507 00:24:03,279 - > 00:24:07,279 I mean, we've we with even with our candidate facing AI tools, I 508 00:24:07,279 - > 00:24:09,759 have encountered many, many candidates who did not even 509 00:24:09,759 - > 00:24:12,559 realize it was AI until a recruiter told them it was AI 510 00:24:12,559 - > 00:24:13,200 after the fact. 511 00:24:13,519 - > 00:24:15,519 Pete Newsome: You know, you you you I I don't know that you're 512 00:24:15,519 - > 00:24:19,440 wrong, but I don't know that as many companies are using it as 513 00:24:19,440 - > 00:24:19,680 you think. 514 00:24:19,839 - > 00:24:23,039 Yeah, and yes, I oh I think you're absolutely right about uh 515 00:24:23,279 - > 00:24:26,000 candidates not realizing AI was in the background. 516 00:24:26,480 - > 00:24:30,079 And that's a good thing if if it creates a seamless experience 517 00:24:30,079 - > 00:24:30,400 for them. 518 00:24:30,640 - > 00:24:34,240 But I had a uh conversation just yesterday with a longtime friend 519 00:24:34,240 - > 00:24:38,480 who's effectively a fractional CIO where he'll go in and do 520 00:24:38,480 - > 00:24:41,039 projects for companies for an extended time. 521 00:24:41,359 - > 00:24:44,400 And he's working with a$350 million company right now, so I 522 00:24:44,400 - > 00:24:45,920 won't share any more details than that. 523 00:24:46,079 - > 00:24:50,160 But he said that they have zero AI use at the company. 524 00:24:50,960 - > 00:24:52,559 Zero AI use. 525 00:24:53,119 - > 00:24:55,759 That to me is just mind-blowing. 526 00:24:56,000 - > 00:25:00,000 And I would love to know why, but that's not an uncommon 527 00:25:00,000 - > 00:25:00,319 story. 528 00:25:00,480 - > 00:25:04,079 I think that is more prevalent than you and I probably realize 529 00:25:04,079 - > 00:25:07,519 on a day-to-day basis because we're so immersed in it. 530 00:25:07,680 - > 00:25:11,119 We see the benefits, we assume that everyone else is, but 531 00:25:11,119 - > 00:25:12,000 they're absolutely not. 532 00:25:12,319 - > 00:25:14,960 There's still a lot of companies and organizations that won't 533 00:25:14,960 - > 00:25:16,160 touch it with a 10-foot ball. 534 00:25:16,480 - > 00:25:18,000 Peter Porebski: You know, that that's not actually that 535 00:25:18,000 - > 00:25:20,799 surprising me because the company is so big. 536 00:25:20,960 - > 00:25:24,240 How many times have we talked about, you know, even in just 537 00:25:24,319 - > 00:25:27,279 you know, selling our company versus a larger staffing firm? 538 00:25:27,440 - > 00:25:30,079 Just be small companies are able to make those changes. 539 00:25:30,160 - > 00:25:31,200 They're able to do these things. 540 00:25:31,279 - > 00:25:34,400 A large company putting an initiative out there, getting 541 00:25:34,400 - > 00:25:38,480 something changed is a huge, you know, it's a it's a giant cruise 542 00:25:38,480 - > 00:25:40,079 ship versus a small speed boat. 543 00:25:40,240 - > 00:25:44,880 And that's how many large companies are working with old, 544 00:25:44,960 - > 00:25:47,920 you know, versions of Windows just on their on their servers? 545 00:25:48,000 - > 00:25:52,240 There uh things are not updated to the to the newest, to the 546 00:25:52,240 - > 00:25:54,000 latest, unless they absolutely need to. 547 00:25:54,160 - > 00:25:56,640 And AI at a lot of these companies is just another tool. 548 00:25:56,720 - > 00:25:59,200 And maybe they've got it on their docket to get around to it 549 00:25:59,200 - > 00:25:59,839 in a year. 550 00:25:59,920 - > 00:26:02,000 Uh, they've got to get the budget, they've got to get go 551 00:26:02,000 - > 00:26:04,240 through all this red tape, whereas a small company is 552 00:26:04,319 - > 00:26:06,720 they're totally fine with, or small or medium-sized company 553 00:26:06,880 - > 00:26:10,000 are totally fine with adding in new tools and trying them out. 554 00:26:10,240 - > 00:26:12,160 Pete Newsome: So that this friend that I'm referring to, 555 00:26:12,319 - > 00:26:17,200 the he actually built a system for a company we both worked at 556 00:26:17,200 - > 00:26:18,880 years ago, and we were joking about it. 557 00:26:19,039 - > 00:26:21,599 It was a big project, it was a big step forward for this 558 00:26:21,599 - > 00:26:22,480 company at the time. 559 00:26:22,559 - > 00:26:24,079 It was in the logistics space. 560 00:26:24,160 - > 00:26:29,680 It was it was a logistics tool that took the company huge leaps 561 00:26:29,680 - > 00:26:33,599 forward in how efficient it could be, how advanced it could 562 00:26:33,599 - > 00:26:37,039 be compared to the old system that was being used. 563 00:26:37,200 - > 00:26:39,759 And I joked with him yesterday, I said, you could probably build 564 00:26:39,759 - > 00:26:41,519 that now by yourself in a week. 565 00:26:41,759 - > 00:26:44,880 And he kind of laughed and said, or maybe just a weekend. 566 00:26:45,119 - > 00:26:48,720 And so when you know that that's what AI can do, and the company 567 00:26:48,720 - > 00:26:52,400 that he's working for now, they're in um manufacturing and 568 00:26:52,400 - > 00:26:53,359 logistics. 569 00:26:54,400 - > 00:26:57,839 How are you not taking advantage of AI at this point? 570 00:26:57,920 - > 00:27:00,160 I I just I find it fascinating. 571 00:27:00,319 - > 00:27:03,839 I find it I used the word surprising earlier. 572 00:27:04,000 - > 00:27:07,200 I'm not really surprised at this point because the stories still 573 00:27:07,200 - > 00:27:07,759 pile up. 574 00:27:08,000 - > 00:27:10,960 But at what point does that become a competitive 575 00:27:10,960 - > 00:27:12,400 disadvantage that can't be overcome? 576 00:27:12,640 - > 00:27:14,079 Peter Porebski: Yeah, and especially in the hiring 577 00:27:14,079 - > 00:27:14,400 process. 578 00:27:14,480 - > 00:27:17,599 I mean, that's going to require somebody who is intimately 579 00:27:17,599 - > 00:27:21,279 involved in a in talent acquisition or company's HR, but 580 00:27:21,279 - > 00:27:22,960 they've also got technical knowledge. 581 00:27:23,119 - > 00:27:26,240 They've also got that tech, you know, IT background, maybe, or 582 00:27:26,240 - > 00:27:30,480 at the very least, an awareness of things to kind of push that. 583 00:27:30,559 - > 00:27:35,359 And I mean, I've I've obviously met some very technical um HR 584 00:27:35,359 - > 00:27:38,480 managers and HR directors and whatnot, but a lot of them are 585 00:27:38,480 - > 00:27:38,640 not. 586 00:27:38,720 - > 00:27:42,000 And they're they're very much into the compliance and and HR 587 00:27:42,079 - > 00:27:45,119 you know space, and they are maybe not as aware of just 588 00:27:45,119 - > 00:27:46,559 things that are outside of it. 589 00:27:46,640 - > 00:27:52,720 And so I I wonder if it's just purely there, you know, you're 590 00:27:52,720 - > 00:27:55,039 insulated in your own department and you've got all these other 591 00:27:55,039 - > 00:27:57,359 problems to worry about, and that's just something that you 592 00:27:57,359 - > 00:27:58,319 haven't thought about. 593 00:27:58,480 - > 00:28:00,720 And that could be the case in a lot of these HR because we're 594 00:28:00,720 - > 00:28:02,480 talking about you know specifically the hiring process. 595 00:28:02,799 - > 00:28:05,599 Pete Newsome: Yeah, I mean, I guess if it's if it ain't broke, 596 00:28:06,000 - > 00:28:08,240 don't don't go don't try to fix it. 597 00:28:08,400 - > 00:28:12,480 But um I I I I think it's gonna be forced upon everyone sooner 598 00:28:12,480 - > 00:28:13,039 than later. 599 00:28:13,279 - > 00:28:19,440 Um probably much sooner than well. 600 00:28:19,599 - > 00:28:23,200 Peter Porebski: Speaking of uh you know companies integrating 601 00:28:23,200 - > 00:28:26,079 automation and AI tools, you know what do you want to talk 602 00:28:26,079 - > 00:28:29,759 about you know, candidate fraud that's becoming more and more of 603 00:28:29,759 - > 00:28:34,400 a problem with the proliferation of these AI tools that allow it 604 00:28:34,400 - > 00:28:35,039 to happen. 605 00:28:35,920 - > 00:28:39,920 Pete Newsome: So the tools are the yeah, the AI is there and 606 00:28:40,480 - > 00:28:41,839 some stats on that, right? 607 00:28:41,920 - > 00:28:45,279 So it's a good segue to talk about this on the heels of the 608 00:28:45,519 - > 00:28:46,640 zip recruiter survey. 609 00:28:46,720 - > 00:28:48,400 So candidates are encountering it. 610 00:28:48,640 - > 00:28:53,359 Employers and candidates alike are encountering fraud as a 611 00:28:53,359 - > 00:28:56,319 result of how easy it is to perpetuate now. 612 00:28:56,400 - > 00:28:59,920 I think that fraud has always existed in our space uh when it 613 00:28:59,920 - > 00:29:04,720 comes to the job search process and recruiting, but now it is 614 00:29:04,720 - > 00:29:09,519 happening to a degree that it's so out of control, it's it's 615 00:29:10,079 - > 00:29:11,680 it's it's become a huge problem. 616 00:29:11,839 - > 00:29:15,759 So by 2028, according to Gartner, one in four job 617 00:29:15,759 - > 00:29:18,000 candidate profiles worldwide will be fake. 618 00:29:18,400 - > 00:29:19,359 One in four. 619 00:29:19,759 - > 00:29:20,400 Peter Porebski: Yeah. 620 00:29:21,200 - > 00:29:24,720 Pete Newsome: It's just so that's we're talking billions at 621 00:29:24,720 - > 00:29:27,359 this point of fake candidate profiles. 622 00:29:28,079 - > 00:29:33,119 Um 83 million fake profiles already. 623 00:29:33,200 - > 00:29:40,400 Um in the first half of the year alone on LinkedIn, 117 reported 624 00:29:40,400 - > 00:29:44,240 spam or scam incidents on LinkedIn the first half of last 625 00:29:44,240 - > 00:29:44,720 year. 626 00:29:45,039 - > 00:29:46,880 What can be done about that? 627 00:29:47,839 - > 00:29:50,480 Peter Porebski: So that's where these, you know, these HR 628 00:29:50,480 - > 00:29:54,319 departments are going to kind of need to put in to effect AI 629 00:29:54,319 - > 00:29:55,039 screening tools. 630 00:29:55,200 - > 00:29:59,359 I know there is a plethora out there of um tools that will, you 631 00:29:59,359 - > 00:30:02,400 know, if you you're on a video, they can match your ID, they can 632 00:30:02,400 - > 00:30:05,759 look for signs that you are not who you say you are, that you're 633 00:30:05,759 - > 00:30:08,559 cheating on your, you know, I know that that's been a thing 634 00:30:08,559 - > 00:30:09,440 for a little while. 635 00:30:09,599 - > 00:30:12,720 Um, screen reading, cheating, why they match your movements, 636 00:30:12,799 - > 00:30:14,400 uh, I all of that. 637 00:30:14,559 - > 00:30:17,680 Um that's gonna have to become kind of instead of a 638 00:30:17,759 - > 00:30:20,000 case-by-case, that's gonna have to become the norm, I think, for 639 00:30:20,000 - > 00:30:20,880 a lot of these companies. 640 00:30:21,039 - > 00:30:23,920 And and the people we've talked to, I know you and me both, in 641 00:30:23,920 - > 00:30:27,440 the IT space, that is already a thing that's been, you know, 642 00:30:27,599 - > 00:30:29,920 something that they're worrying about and that they're looking 643 00:30:29,920 - > 00:30:33,759 at and they've put into place just because it is particularly 644 00:30:33,759 - > 00:30:35,920 prevalent in the high-end IT. 645 00:30:36,079 - > 00:30:39,279 Um, it has been for some time, but it's now kind of creeping 646 00:30:39,279 - > 00:30:41,680 into over into other areas into other industries. 647 00:30:41,920 - > 00:30:42,559 Pete Newsome: It it has. 648 00:30:42,640 - > 00:30:45,519 And so we encountered that this week, and that's one of the 649 00:30:45,519 - > 00:30:46,720 reasons it's on our minds. 650 00:30:46,880 - > 00:30:50,720 We saw it in a non-IT position for the first time. 651 00:30:50,880 - > 00:30:55,920 It was a bait and switch, a common scam in the IT space 652 00:30:56,160 - > 00:30:59,759 where someone interviews for the job who is technically 653 00:30:59,759 - > 00:31:03,839 qualified, and if it's a remote job, someone else actually shows 654 00:31:03,839 - > 00:31:05,200 up to do the work. 655 00:31:05,359 - > 00:31:09,519 Uh, or in some cases, someone shows up on site to do the work. 656 00:31:09,599 - > 00:31:14,079 Uh, if it was a phone interviews that were never face to face. 657 00:31:14,640 - > 00:31:24,000 Um it's it is changing and has changed for us how we screen the 658 00:31:24,000 - > 00:31:28,160 level uh or the depth of things that we have to do now. 659 00:31:28,480 - > 00:31:32,480 I I never would have thought necessary just a couple of years 660 00:31:32,480 - > 00:31:32,880 ago. 661 00:31:33,039 - > 00:31:39,119 Um, it because we we we have to you'd love to take an approach 662 00:31:39,119 - > 00:31:40,799 where it's guilty until proven innocent. 663 00:31:40,880 - > 00:31:45,440 And we almost now have to assume guilt until innocence is proven. 664 00:31:45,519 - > 00:31:46,880 And that's a tragedy to me. 665 00:31:46,960 - > 00:31:47,920 That's really unfortunate. 666 00:31:48,319 - > 00:31:49,839 Peter Porebski: It's particularly bad in remote jobs, 667 00:31:49,920 - > 00:31:50,319 obviously. 668 00:31:50,480 - > 00:31:52,720 We know that you know, with overemployment, people working 669 00:31:52,720 - > 00:31:55,119 multiple, the the kind of the bait and switch, like you said. 670 00:31:55,200 - > 00:31:59,359 Um, and just I think it's this unscrupulous candidates maybe 671 00:31:59,359 - > 00:32:03,039 taking just taking advantage of the fact that if a company's got 672 00:32:03,039 - > 00:32:08,640 three you know uh uh remote Zoom interviews, it's really easy to 673 00:32:08,640 - > 00:32:11,519 have a different person on mult on two of the interviews than on 674 00:32:11,599 - > 00:32:14,640 than the person who shows up, or it's a different person each 675 00:32:14,640 - > 00:32:14,880 time. 676 00:32:15,200 - > 00:32:19,200 So I have to wonder though, like what's to be gained out of that. 677 00:32:19,359 - > 00:32:23,839 And I guess it's just having uh somebody else interview for you. 678 00:32:24,000 - > 00:32:26,720 Pete Newsome: Maybe you're not a great interviewer, or no, I uh 679 00:32:26,799 - > 00:32:30,160 it it's sort of so you you you point out something that uh a 680 00:32:30,160 - > 00:32:31,680 lot of companies don't think about. 681 00:32:31,839 - > 00:32:36,000 If if someone, let's say we're hiring someone and we have a 682 00:32:36,000 - > 00:32:40,480 series of interviews scheduled, one is with me, then one is with 683 00:32:40,480 - > 00:32:43,680 you, it could be an entirely different person showing up from 684 00:32:43,680 - > 00:32:44,960 one screen to the next. 685 00:32:45,119 - > 00:32:48,799 So typically the way it works, or at least commonly, one person 686 00:32:49,039 - > 00:32:51,200 will have that initial screen. 687 00:32:51,279 - > 00:32:52,960 They're good enough to get past that. 688 00:32:53,039 - > 00:32:55,599 That's the person who's going to ultimately show up, quote 689 00:32:55,680 - > 00:32:57,519 unquote, to do the job if they're hired. 690 00:32:57,680 - > 00:33:01,279 But when it gets to the deeper interview levels, a technical 691 00:33:01,279 - > 00:33:05,359 screen, it will be an entirely different person who answers 692 00:33:05,359 - > 00:33:06,240 those questions. 693 00:33:06,400 - > 00:33:10,000 And if you don't match the individual based on a government 694 00:33:10,000 - > 00:33:12,480 ID, you're not gonna know, right? 695 00:33:12,559 - > 00:33:13,279 You're not gonna know. 696 00:33:13,440 - > 00:33:15,519 We're not gonna, if you're doing it right, you're not talking 697 00:33:15,519 - > 00:33:18,720 about someone's physical appearance uh after you get off 698 00:33:18,720 - > 00:33:19,279 the interview. 699 00:33:19,359 - > 00:33:20,160 You shouldn't be. 700 00:33:20,319 - > 00:33:24,480 So if we're doing it right, it would never occur to us that you 701 00:33:24,480 - > 00:33:28,480 know Bob who I interviewed was not the same Bob who you you had 702 00:33:28,640 - > 00:33:28,960 interviewed. 703 00:33:29,279 - > 00:33:29,440 Peter Porebski: Exactly. 704 00:33:29,519 - > 00:33:32,880 If you a short of like complete giant differences in in the 705 00:33:32,880 - > 00:33:37,119 person, if you're similar, you know that that's never gonna 706 00:33:37,119 - > 00:33:37,599 come up. 707 00:33:37,920 - > 00:33:38,960 It's never gonna come up. 708 00:33:39,119 - > 00:33:41,279 Pete Newsome: So measures have to be taken now. 709 00:33:41,519 - > 00:33:42,799 The government's involved. 710 00:33:42,880 - > 00:33:46,480 That's so back to the government again, trying to stop all this 711 00:33:46,480 - > 00:33:47,759 craziness that's happening. 712 00:33:47,839 - > 00:33:57,200 So the DOJ uh busted a number of uh North Korean firms, criminal 713 00:33:57,200 - > 00:34:00,640 organizations that have been perpetuating this scam for a 714 00:34:00,640 - > 00:34:00,960 while. 715 00:34:01,119 - > 00:34:04,799 The losses are in the hundreds of millions that have been piled 716 00:34:04,799 - > 00:34:04,960 up. 717 00:34:05,119 - > 00:34:08,400 So there's no question right now that there's a lot of effort 718 00:34:08,400 - > 00:34:11,679 being put to stop the uh put forth to stop this both at the 719 00:34:11,679 - > 00:34:14,480 government level, but it has to be done at the company level 720 00:34:14,559 - > 00:34:14,800 too. 721 00:34:14,880 - > 00:34:16,079 So you have to be vigilant. 722 00:34:16,320 - > 00:34:18,960 If you are involved in hiring, if you're involved in recruiting 723 00:34:18,960 - > 00:34:22,400 in any way, this should be on your radar screen and you should 724 00:34:22,400 - > 00:34:28,239 be taking steps to prevent it because um it's it's coming to 725 00:34:28,239 - > 00:34:30,719 your doorstep, whether you want it to or not. 726 00:34:31,039 - > 00:34:34,960 Peter Porebski: Yeah, so that that this and many other issues, 727 00:34:35,039 - > 00:34:37,679 you know, on the candidate side, which we've talked about, like I 728 00:34:37,679 - > 00:34:40,239 said, at one click apply, all that, that is what's going to 729 00:34:40,239 - > 00:34:44,079 drive, I think, the implementation of uh of AI and 730 00:34:44,079 - > 00:34:47,280 these these automation tools in the hiring process for 731 00:34:47,280 - > 00:34:49,760 companies, and that's what's candidates are going to you know 732 00:34:50,000 - > 00:34:52,960 encounter it more and more because it's kind of almost an 733 00:34:52,960 - > 00:34:53,519 arms race. 734 00:34:53,679 - > 00:34:56,079 You know, one side increases, the other one does. 735 00:34:56,400 - > 00:34:58,800 Pete Newsome: Unfortunately, candidates are also seeing it. 736 00:34:58,960 - > 00:35:00,239 So candidates are impacted too. 737 00:35:00,320 - > 00:35:01,360 There's a lot of scams there. 738 00:35:01,679 - > 00:35:06,480 Yep, jobs where it'll appear to be a real employment 739 00:35:06,480 - > 00:35:06,960 opportunity. 740 00:35:07,039 - > 00:35:10,719 They ask for all of the information that is needed when 741 00:35:10,719 - > 00:35:15,360 you're entering into a new job, all your social security number, 742 00:35:15,440 - > 00:35:18,880 they'll get your government documents, and the job turns out 743 00:35:18,880 - > 00:35:19,440 to be fake. 744 00:35:19,519 - > 00:35:23,360 So there's massive fraud there with fake employers, fake job 745 00:35:23,360 - > 00:35:23,760 postings. 746 00:35:23,920 - > 00:35:26,000 We talk a lot about ghost jobs. 747 00:35:26,239 - > 00:35:27,920 The numbers there are staggering. 748 00:35:28,079 - > 00:35:32,239 And what's crazy to me is that so many companies just admit 749 00:35:32,239 - > 00:35:34,000 that they post fake jobs. 750 00:35:34,159 - > 00:35:37,119 Peter Porebski: They'll some states are uh are trying to pass 751 00:35:37,119 - > 00:35:37,760 rules against it. 752 00:35:37,920 - > 00:35:41,119 I know California's trying to pass a law against fake job 753 00:35:41,119 - > 00:35:41,760 postings. 754 00:35:42,400 - > 00:35:46,079 Pete Newsome: Yeah, I mean it's it's you know, there's no, you 755 00:35:46,079 - > 00:35:49,119 know, talk about kicking someone when they're down, right? 756 00:35:49,280 - > 00:35:54,079 If there's a worker who's out of a job wasting their time, that's 757 00:35:54,400 - > 00:35:55,440 that's criminal. 758 00:35:55,599 - > 00:35:58,639 Yeah, I mean, really, you you deserve to be punished in a 759 00:35:58,639 - > 00:35:59,440 significant way. 760 00:35:59,599 - > 00:36:04,079 If you're doing that consciously to waste job seekers' time um in 761 00:36:04,639 - > 00:36:06,800 committing fraud against him, I think that should be a 762 00:36:06,800 - > 00:36:08,880 punishment that is very severe. 763 00:36:09,599 - > 00:36:11,119 Peter Porebski: 100% agree. 764 00:36:11,440 - > 00:36:14,639 Pete Newsome: But uh man, we we were supposed to, this was 765 00:36:14,639 - > 00:36:15,599 supposed to be the good news week. 766 00:36:15,840 - > 00:36:20,559 I know it's like we would now fraud and gloom and doom with 767 00:36:20,559 - > 00:36:20,880 AI. 768 00:36:21,119 - > 00:36:23,760 I mean, look, the unemployment was down a little bit this week, 769 00:36:23,920 - > 00:36:25,119 so the numbers came out. 770 00:36:25,360 - > 00:36:31,039 Um hiring was down a little bit, uh new jobs from the ADP report. 771 00:36:31,280 - > 00:36:35,039 We're about to see the big jobs report come out at the beginning 772 00:36:35,039 - > 00:36:37,760 of next month, since we're in at the end of May here. 773 00:36:38,000 - > 00:36:41,760 Peter Porebski: Um, not that anyone trusts it at this point, 774 00:36:42,159 - > 00:36:45,360 but maybe it'll be a higher, maybe it'll be a good number and 775 00:36:45,360 - > 00:36:46,800 we can we can believe in it. 776 00:36:47,039 - > 00:36:49,280 Pete Newsome: Yeah, the estimated number this must come 777 00:36:49,280 - > 00:36:51,360 out as around 90,000 jobs being added. 778 00:36:51,440 - > 00:36:55,280 It's always a very loose number, but the trajection uh 779 00:36:55,519 - > 00:36:56,639 directionally that's good. 780 00:36:56,800 - > 00:36:59,360 I mean, it's a good trajectory if it's real. 781 00:36:59,599 - > 00:37:03,840 Um, so it it is almost the same story, different day, um, 782 00:37:04,079 - > 00:37:07,039 lately, where some of the numbers look good. 783 00:37:07,199 - > 00:37:09,519 We see numbers that contradict them. 784 00:37:09,599 - > 00:37:12,960 That and so I think we're just overall flat, right? 785 00:37:13,119 - > 00:37:15,840 I mean, that's that's that's the best interpretation. 786 00:37:15,920 - > 00:37:19,199 That's my scientific conclusion, is it we're just flat? 787 00:37:19,440 - > 00:37:21,440 Peter Porebski: Well, like you said, I mean, earlier, it 788 00:37:21,920 - > 00:37:26,000 whether we end up going down, I guess, a negative path, we're 789 00:37:26,000 - > 00:37:26,639 talking about it. 790 00:37:26,719 - > 00:37:29,280 We want to have this, you know, this informal talk, but where we 791 00:37:29,280 - > 00:37:31,760 are at least bringing these things to people's awareness 792 00:37:31,840 - > 00:37:34,639 because so many people just don't even realize or think 793 00:37:34,639 - > 00:37:34,960 about it. 794 00:37:35,039 - > 00:37:36,559 And it is something that they should be aware of. 795 00:37:36,800 - > 00:37:38,000 Pete Newsome: Everyone needs to be, right? 796 00:37:38,079 - > 00:37:41,679 You have to take that um into your own hands and or just 797 00:37:41,679 - > 00:37:42,159 follow us. 798 00:37:42,239 - > 00:37:44,159 We're gonna keep informing you if you're not already 799 00:37:44,159 - > 00:37:44,880 subscribed. 800 00:37:45,039 - > 00:37:46,880 Make sure you subscribe to our daily newsletter. 801 00:37:46,960 - > 00:37:49,599 We pull all the daily news, we send the highlights, we send it 802 00:37:49,599 - > 00:37:51,519 in really easy uh to read form. 803 00:37:51,760 - > 00:37:54,960 So subscribe on four cornerresources.com, look at our 804 00:37:54,960 - > 00:37:57,760 news section, uh, or subscribe to our LinkedIn newsletter. 805 00:37:57,840 - > 00:38:01,039 You we're easy to find there too at four on the four corner page. 806 00:38:01,199 - > 00:38:04,800 So um now we did not talk about the layoffs that occurred. 807 00:38:04,960 - > 00:38:08,000 Should we close without them and just say goodbye, or should we 808 00:38:08,000 - > 00:38:10,639 throw out because there were a couple of name brand companies 809 00:38:10,639 - > 00:38:13,440 that that you want to just throw the companies out there, do a 810 00:38:13,440 - > 00:38:14,719 rapid fire through all of them? 811 00:38:14,960 - > 00:38:16,639 Peter Porebski: All right, Groupon and Wix both had big 812 00:38:16,639 - > 00:38:17,039 layoffs. 813 00:38:17,199 - > 00:38:19,840 Pete Newsome: Okay, so that is going to do it for today. 814 00:38:20,079 - > 00:38:24,880 Um maybe next time we'll get through a week without it. 815 00:38:25,039 - > 00:38:27,840 Although I just right before we got on, I did see another 816 00:38:27,840 - > 00:38:28,800 announcement coming. 817 00:38:28,960 - > 00:38:33,199 But uh maybe we'll see some really good news with the jobs 818 00:38:33,199 - > 00:38:33,440 report. 819 00:38:33,519 - > 00:38:34,480 Let's hold on to that for the moment. 820 00:38:34,639 - > 00:38:36,320 Peter Porebski: Yeah, let's hold on to hope for the jobs report 821 00:38:36,480 - > 00:38:38,320 and we'll choose to believe the numbers. 822 00:38:38,559 - > 00:38:39,199 Pete Newsome: There you go. 823 00:38:39,360 - > 00:38:40,079 All right, everyone. 824 00:38:40,159 - > 00:38:40,800 Thanks for listening. 825 00:38:40,960 - > 00:38:42,000 We will talk to you soon.