Season 2 | Episode 13 with Danae Powell from Carlton Industrial Solutions

Speaker A: Greetings and welcome to another edition of Chat Nap with the AI Chatterbox, Chuck and Howie, a podcast dedicated to metrology. Um, I'm Chuck Ellis. My co host is Howard Zion. Howard, good morning.

Speaker B: Oh my gosh, it's a beautiful spring day and I, uh, love this weather. Are you taking any trips here coming up?

Speaker A: Yes, I'm making a trip to Kansas City to scout possible sites for a 30th anniversary party. I mean, that was kind of a

Speaker B: lead in, but you went for it, so. Yeah, we'll see you, uh, next weekend actually. So that'll be great. Do a little topgolf and, uh, do a little bit of searching, uh, for different venues for the 30th anniversary for NAPT. That'll be fun.

Speaker A: Well, pre warned. I haven't, you know, recovered yet, so my golf swing is probably going to look pretty shady. And I'm not gonna.

Speaker B: I mean, if you've played topgolf, you know that you're like right on the edge of, uh, this area that you've got to hit your shots out into a long play and there's targets out there for you to hit, or you can play like little games where you see it on the screen and if you hit it to a certain area, you can play Angry Birds or something like that. It's kind of fun. It's kind of like bowling, but golf style. All right, so we have an incredible guest today who is a little elusive. Right. She's been around for a long time in the metrology industry. A lot of people know her and know of her, but don't really know her know her. Right?

Speaker A: Correct. So should we tell them who today's, uh, guest is?

Speaker B: Go for it.

Speaker A: It's, ah, Danae Powell. So let me tell you about a brief thing about Danae. I mean, she's. Her resume is 10 pages long and I'm not going to repeat all 10 pages for our guests, our listeners, I should say. But, um, Danae is a metrology and quality leader with 40 years of experience in calibration, measurement science and regulatory complian. She is the general manager of precision measurement at Carleton Industrial Solutions and serves on the NCSLI Board of Directors as operational Vice President and Industrial metrology. Danae brings deep experience with ISO 17025, nuclear and regulatory environments multidiscipline metrology, uh, making her a trusted voice in metrology integrity and proficiency testing. Now, I've known Danae for a long time, obviously through the relationship with nept. Um, we, you know, we. I remember years ago Having a lot of conversations. When accreditation first got started, you know, proficiency testing, became, now became a, uh, supporter of accreditation. And then I finally got a chance to meet her. You know, not too many years ago, but a few years ago if you want to really for most people. But in our, you know, 30 year history, it's not that long ago that I actually finally got a chance to meet her. Danae is big in ncsli. She is, sits on the board. And so I'm sure a lot of our conversation today will go towards ncsli. So how do you know Danae? What is your.

Speaker B: Through ncsl for sure. Um, and really with my involvement, uh, with healthcare, that has really that committee, she's the vice president that oversees a number of committees including Aerospace, Energy, Automotive, Legal, Metrology and Healthcare. Uh, and so her involvement with that is how I've directly connected with her indirectly. I've known about Danae for years and I can't remember when I first heard her name or was aware that of her existence in metrology. It's probably been 10 or 15 years.

Speaker A: And there she is, speaking of the uh, devil.

Speaker B: Hello, Danae, the devil dog.

Speaker A: Danae, welcome to the program.

Speaker C: Thank you, thank you for having me.

Speaker A: We're extremely excited to learn more about you. And so I'm going to just hit it right from the stop. I mean, I know a lot about you and Howard knows a lot about you, but our, our listeners don't. So I'm m going to ask to give us as much as you want to share about who you are, you know, what you're doing in life today. You know, I see it's beautiful outside where you're at, it's beautiful where we're at. So maybe you could tell us where you're at today. And the other thing that I want to talk about a lot today as well is your big love of life is the ncsli. Um, I know that that's a big part of your life and so we're gonna, I wanna talk about that as well. So I'm gonna give you the mic for as long as you want it to tell us about who you are and what you're doing today in the measurement community.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm curious how you came into metrology like we've had for other guests, but go right ahead.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, if you don't answer that question, we'll ask you no problems.

Speaker C: I'll probably talk too much, so you'll just have to reel me in. You know, when I. So as you said my name Is Danae. I am, um, I'm just a little nobody who fell into the metrology world. And, uh, I was raised on Kodiak island in Alaska.

Speaker A: Oh, wow.

Speaker C: Grew up in the very small communities. Eventually moved when I was around 10, 11, moved to Nikiske, Alaska. Again, small little place, small m. Little town. Was one of those kids that was overachiever. You know, I think it sort of goes with us, you know, the little OCD or maybe type A personality. So I graduated when I was 16 and like, what do you do and what do you do in the Kiski, Alaska when you're 16? You can't work in any restaurants because they all had a bar. You know, I didn't want to work in the can. Right. So I had decided to go into the military. That's pretty much what I decided. Um, I wanted to get an education. And my mom was a single mom at the time and I didn't want to add any more burden. I had two younger siblings and so my older sibling joined the Marine Corps. Well, I was actually in conversations with the, uh, Air Force recruiter because I thought, you know, I'm going to go into the military. I want to be stationed in Alaska. Because when you're up in Alaska and born and raised there, it's like everything else is like subpar, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah. My sister and her husband were stationed up there and she absolutely loved it.

Speaker C: Yeah, So I, that was my thought. So, you know, I didn't know of any Marine Corps bases in Alaska, but I thought, well, I could get, go in the Air Force and be stationed back in Alaska, do my time, four years, and then take my college money and become a teacher. That was my goal, was to become a teacher. But life, as they say, had other plans. So my sister joined the Marine Corps about six months before I was eligible for the delayed entry program. And so of course your big sister tells you, you cannot join the Air Force. You have to join the Marine Corps. What are you talking about? You know, so why. That's how I ended up in the Marine Corps. It was the, it was a, uh, okay, yeah, maybe we could get stationed together. And. Oh, this is the bet, you know, all the things that recruiters tell, you know, young teenage kids.

Speaker B: So, um, that influence is interesting because that same brother in law is the one who talked me into going to take the ASVAB for the Air Force.

Speaker C: Yeah, Influence, influence. A big, A big influence. And, um, if anyone had ever told me my sister would join any branch of the service, I'd have called Him a flat out old lady flyer. I was like, no way.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: Um, she was the one that did the beauty pageants. I was the one climbing trees and, you know, raising chickens and stuff like that. So I mean, I was just like, no way.

Speaker B: Makes more sense.

Speaker C: So anyway, I, yeah, took, went down, took the asvab. I'd already taken the asvab, so I was a little bit ahead on that and did really well on the engineering electronics side. And so basically went in open electronics. That's how I got into same. Yeah.

Speaker B: And was metrology was female one of the picks?

Speaker C: I know it was just open electronics. I was too. I had just turned 17 when I enlisted. You know, it's like I was on delayed entry. So I actually turned 18 in boot camp.

Speaker B: Oh, wow.

Speaker C: So I looked probably about 16, 14, I don't know, something like that. Everyone said I looked really, really young. And so, you know, I didn't know we didn't have TV growing up.

Speaker B: Oh, wow.

Speaker C: We didn't.

Speaker B: I was in the wild wilderness of Alaska. That's incredible.

Speaker C: Yeah. So, I mean, I just didn't know what to ask. I mean, I just, I was glad that they were going to give me some money to get an education. That was my goal so long, you know, jumped forward. I go into boot camp. I do well in boot camp. I get a meritorious promotion. I did well. I'm like, I'm not sure exactly. I'd have to go back and look, it's been so long. I got one of those meritorious promotions. You get one for academics, you get one for PT or you know, how well you do on your physical fitness. And I got one for. It was like a combination, uh, like overall, because, like, I was really good at the book stuff and really.

Speaker B: Anyway, overachiever, overachiever.

Speaker C: So I get through that and I'm like, oh, yay. And I, by the way, I joined or, uh, the, the Marine Corps recruiters. I think all Alaskan recruiters know, send your people in the winter. Because if you have only lived in Alaska and you go down to South Carolina, like Parris island, all of a sudden it's like, you're dying. Because February in Alaska and February in South Carolina are like night and day. So they did wisdom there. So I get down to South Carolina and I'm like, oh, man, it's hot. And they're making us wear these big old heavy, you know, your beanies and your heavy wool, you know, jackets, winter jackets. And I'm like dying down there. But anyway, so then they send me to 29 Palms, California. So I get there in May, and, um, I go through. I'm, um, midway, um, through. I don't. Maybe not even midway through basic electronics school. And to me, school is fun. And it's. I. Yeah, it's a natural. I'm a natural. One that just likes to pick it up and study. And I'm a nerd. And so I'm in this. In this course, and I look out the windows similar to here. And I'm looking out the windows and I see all these marines out there in full gear with these big old radio packs on. And I realized that 85% of those of us in this basic electronics course are going to be out there humping through the sand with a radio or, you know, communications equipment. And I start panicking. I'm like, literally, I'm going to die. I'm going to die.

Speaker B: What have I gotten myself into?

Speaker C: I have left Alaska. I am going to be out here in the sand. In the meantime, my sister, who is about six months ahead of me, she is now in laughing at you. No, she's in Fort Gordon, Georgia, in crypto school.

Speaker B: Oh, that's cool.

Speaker C: I'm like. She's an air conditioning. She's like. So I'm like, you know, talking to her on the weekends and stuff. And I'm like, she goes, you need to find out how you can get to crypto school or calibration school. But I'd never even heard of calibration. And so anyway, now is that those

Speaker B: were longer schools which tend to be better careers.

Speaker C: Yeah. No, her purpose was they have controlled environments.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: Um, no, these Alaskan girls were thinking about how hot it is out there. Not

Speaker B: forget the rest of it. I want to be.

Speaker C: Not how much school we can get. It's all about surviving.

Speaker B: Wow, that's awesome.

Speaker C: Um, but that's. So I went to. Actually, Jeff Gus was one of my students. Student teachers at the time. He was waiting to go to Cal school when I was at 29 palms. Um, and so I was asking, you know, our. Our CEO or whatever, our senior enlisted. How do I get calibration school or crypto? How can I get. How can I pick what. That. There's. If you weren't guaranteed. We only have so many billets and. And you weren't guaranteed your. Unless you graduate top in your class.

Speaker B: Well, there's the incentive.

Speaker C: That's how I got into calibration school.

Speaker B: That's it.

Speaker A: Nice.

Speaker C: Okay. Whatever it takes, we are going to. So, um, actually, that is one of the. You Know how you get your reenlistment or you get your, your enlistment? My, my little award for graduating top of my class for basic electronics is, is like my most private possession.

Speaker B: All right, that's it. Uh, we are changing our marketing information on training for technicians to not just look for motivated people. We're going to start showing images of jobs that really suck. Right. The dirty jobs, and say, but you could be here instead.

Speaker A: You could be in a controlled environment.

Speaker C: Uh, you know, and I can joke about it now, but at the time there was some serious. I mean, it was.

Speaker B: We're talking about your life being on the line.

Speaker C: Yeah, it was a real culture shock for this little Alaskan, you know, that's incredible. Barely 18 year old thinking and 29 palms in May, June, July, we're talking it.

Speaker B: No, see, and I was kind of environmentally induced as well for this because I went in open electronics and I picked five electronic careers. Didn't know computers, number one. Number three was female only because it was in Denver and I was raised in Chicago. So these are all flatlands and I wanted to see the mountains. Right. So it was kind of a similar thing.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Wasn't about the school. It was about where I was going to go.

Speaker C: And mine was simply like, okay, I can survive, I can do four years if I don't have to worry about dying all the time. Of course, then I went, you know, ended up going out and being in all kinds of environments. But that's okay. I got, I got something great out of it. And that's a career I love.

Speaker B: That's fantastic.

Speaker A: That's fabulous. Let me, let me share with you what, uh, one of our friends we all know and love called Story Time. And so I'm going to interject a fact here, Danae, that I've been lucky enough to sleep in every single state except Alaska. And so it's on my bucket list to make a trip to Alaska and spend at least one night in a hotel. So I can say that I slept in every single state in the United States of America. That's. That's the last state I got to go to.

Speaker B: Chuck wants to be known for sleeping around. Oh, my gosh, that's horrible.

Speaker A: So which of the major ones I can fly into? Do you think I should. I should go visit of Alaska? Which is the, which is the best one I can fly into? Do I want to, you know, Fairbanks, Juneau, Anchorage.

Speaker C: The most economical would be Anchorage only because it's the most common. Unless you're going on a cruise, then My daughter lives in Ketchikan with my sister and brother in law and family. And if you're on a cruise ship, that's usually Juneau or Ketchikan are usually, uh, the first on.

Speaker B: Chuck, I think you should stay in a place in North Pole, Alaska.

Speaker A: Well, technically the North Pole does not even go near to Alaska.

Speaker B: Now, isn't there a town called North Pole?

Speaker C: There is a town called North Pole.

Speaker B: There you go.

Speaker A: But it's not. Oh, I see what you're saying right over the top of my head. I just let you.

Speaker B: So glad you woke up. Got your coffee.

Speaker A: So that brought you. Well, that was a problem.

Speaker C: Yeah. So that's sort of how I got into metrology. Um, I went through TMD school in, um, Albany, Georgia and then, you know, in the Marine Corps, unlike the Air Force, where you just go straight to pmil, you know, you go through everything else first, the test measurement, diagnostic equipment repair course. And yeah, so I went through, through all that. Went to El Tor, actually was. Went through school through Team D school with uh, Jeff Gust and several others, of course, you know, and great group of guys that I went through school with and then was stationed at El Toro, California at the Marine Corps Air Station at El Toro, which is no longer there. It's now Miramar. But.

Speaker B: Nope. They still have the, uh, huts there though. And. Well, maybe not anymore. I don't know. I haven't lived out there in a while, but when my wife and I lived out there, uh, they were still out there.

Speaker C: Yeah. So. And yeah, that, so that started my, my metrology career. When I got out, I ended up marrying a Marine who was a TMDE instructor. And so the rest of my career, or uh, not the rest of my career, but the next phase of my career was basically following him around until he retired after 2022. And, um, so of course my resume got that really rocky start or instead of many people who stay at one company for 18 years or 20 years, or mine was like, okay, we're in Georgia. I was at the Marine Corps, you know, repair depot there for a little while. Then we moved to, back to El Toro and got a job out there. And then Jeff Gus actually got me back over at GTE in which is now Verizon, and got in their repair depot. Then my husband at the time retired and so then I followed him to Tucson.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: And yeah, so anyway, so GTE had

Speaker B: a place out there in California.

Speaker C: Ontario. California. They had a huge calibration lab similar to the one at Fort Wayne.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Jeff was in Fort Wayne at that time. Right.

Speaker C: Actually, Jeff was at, um, Ontario with me when I got hired. And then he. When he left to go to Fort Wayne, that was about the time that I went and actually followed my. My husband at the time to Raytheon Missile Systems.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I was just in Fort Wayne last weekend. My sister just moved there. But I was there for a different reason. Warsaw, Indiana, just near there, uh, is a hub of orthopedic activity. So I was there for one of transcat's customers. And another passion of mine is barbecue, uh, because I'm Kansas City. That's where we live now. Uh, anyway, long story short, so we're

Speaker C: going to be in your hometown.

Speaker B: Yes, for the first time, which is fantastic. So I went to become a certified barbecue judge for Kansas City Barbecue Society, and they had a class in Warsaw last weekend, so I did that. And lo and behold, you talk about, you know, small world for metrology, two degrees of separation. Sitting there talking about, uh, with this guy who was 23 years Navy, and he and his wife were taking the class. So I was talking about my Air Force time. The guy at the table next to us says, you were Air Force as well. So he was. He goes, what was your career field? I said, well, I was P. Mel. And he goes, oh, my wife was P. Mel. She went out to Lowry. And I said, me too. She went through. In 1980. I mean, what in the world? Uh, I go travel to take a barbecue, you know, certification course, and I run into somebody whose Air force and his wife was female. Are you kidding me? Very small world. And.

Speaker C: Very small world. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, very small world. So let's move on to, to your education. And so you are extremely educated. So did you do your education while you were hopping around to all these different sites with your. Because of your relationship there?

Speaker C: And yeah, I just, you know, it's one of those things that. Well, as far as my bachelor's and whatnot, um, that was one of those I'm about to use or lose my education benefits. And I realized, you know, I worked really hard to get those education benefits. So, yeah, so I used my benefits and got my degree. And then I realized when I was out at Energy Northwest working in the nuclear industry, ah, that it's not so much about how much, you know, what experiences you have. They want to see a piece of paper. You know, it's like, you know what, let's get this. Let's get this master's done. Let's get to that next level. So that I can, yeah. Not feel like I'm limited, especially being a female in a mostly male world.

Speaker B: Sure, sure.

Speaker C: It's a challenge.

Speaker B: Yeah, no doubt.

Speaker A: Well, obviously, you know, back in the day when you first started in this particular program, it was heavily, you know, populated by the males. And did you find it, uh, that you were easily accepted? Did you get into a lot of fights about, you know, proving yourself? How was it for you to make your, you know, as they say, make your bones in our industry? Was it uh, easy? Was it not so easy? And what would you, you know, tell anyone new coming into the field on how they could, you know, become a good metrologist like yourself?

Speaker C: One of the challenges I had, as in my early career, one of my challenges wasn't so much dealing with the technical competitiveness as much as just the fact that um, at that time, back in 1985 through 1990, most men didn't want women in the Marine Corps. Period. Yeah, keep it real. And so there was more of a, a struggle against that in general than in, in my career. So career wise, I feel like I've always been one that was accepted for my technical competency. You know, especially in, on the electronic side, troubleshooting repair, if someone needed an 8902 repaired, they'd come to me.

Speaker A: No kidding. Okay.

Speaker C: If, if someone was having a problem with, you know, a spectrum analyzer or any type of RF type gear, it'd be like, well, let's, let's fasten it, you know. So in that regard, in that regards, troubleshooting repair, having the ability to figure out like, why am I not getting the results I'm expecting that I have no problem with. It was always more on just that general acceptance outside of um.

Speaker B: So without getting into details, were there direct instances where people pushed you back or said things to you or was it just kind of an indirect feeling? Um, you know, without.

Speaker C: Not that I. And I guess I should have mentioned this earlier too, but. Yeah, no, I had, I was up for promotion.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: Actually when I got out, I was up for promotion for sergeant and um, and I remained a corporal all the way through. Even though I had the cutting score, even though I had, I was next on the list, I had everything. But because I was a female and my reenlistment hadn't gone through, they gave it to somebody else because they didn't really think I would reenlist. And then I reenlisted and I still didn't get the promotion. It's like things like that because ah, back then it was all on cutting score. It wasn't. It was like how many billets and how many? So, yeah, I. I face that all the time. Yeah.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: But do you think we've gotten better dene. As a. As in the metrology community? We've gotten better.

Speaker C: I think so.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: I really do. I think, I think now most metrologists are. They are of, uh, a mindset that it's based on your competency, your skill set, you know, not on. But, you know, back then, and especially in the Marine Corps, at most organization organizations that I've worked with on the technical side, it's never really been an issue. Every once in a while you'll find someone who, if, um, I've always had to be very careful about if I am trying to point out something that somebody is maybe not doing correctly, hey, well, maybe we could try doing it this way. You can't just say, hey, that's all screwed up and you messed up.

Speaker B: What were you thinking? This is the way you should do it. Right.

Speaker C: I mean, although that's my tendency is like, uh, what in the world are you doing? You know? But you just have to be a lot more diplomatic.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: A lot more tactful when working with male counterparts because you don't want them to feel less than,

Speaker B: I gotta say, not as smart. I've worked with some incredible women in the career of metrology over the last 43 years. Uh, probably one that comes to mind is when I was at NASA, worked, uh, with Lois Lewis, and then she went on with her husband to jpl. But she was just brilliant, right. And you could ask her anything and she pretty much had an answer. She definitely could help you out.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's. That's been. The biggest challenge is like, you don't ever want to make someone. You don't want to get on someone's bad side. M. Unfortunately, especially wearing a quality manager hat, I've gotten. I've gotten sideways with some. Some crap. And it's, it's usually because they don't understand the amount of experience that I've had or the amount of exposure to different environments and equipment types. So a lot of times you go into a, you know, for example, you go into a, um, an electrical lab and you're working with someone that's been doing it for 12 years, and you, and you make a recommendation or you go in and you fix a problem that they haven't been able to solve, and next thing you know, you're not really being asked for help anymore or you're not Being invited or it should

Speaker B: be the other way around. Right. But hey, yeah, that's a shame. Yeah. But you persevere.

Speaker C: What's that?

Speaker B: You've persevered. Look where you are. That's fantastic.

Speaker C: Exactly. Exactly. It's like you just have to find ways to, to work around those challenges. Uh, you know, they say it's like with a church. You know, there's no perfect church because there's people in it. It's the same with the career. There's.

Speaker B: Yeah, that is true.

Speaker C: There's no perfect job as long as there's other people.

Speaker A: Let me, let me get a little political for a minute. Even though this is not a political podcast, do you think that the, the acceptance of women in the metrology community is. There's some sort of correlation to society as well? Where, you know, I, I've been doing this for 48 years. So if we go back for, you know, I seen women not being promoted back when I was in the army because they were simply a woman. And that's just besides the fact now I think that in the metrology community there's, there's really not a whole lot, but that's just me being a male biased. Do you still see there being biased in the metrology community or do you think we've kind of gotten over that stigma?

Speaker C: I, uh, would say it's not so much in the metrology community, just in the corporate community, I think. Corporate. So every metrology lab is operated by some corporation, some organization, some company. I think smaller companies probably do a better job at recognizing the value of the employee based on their skills, you know, skill, knowledge, skills and abilities versus larger corporations where, I mean, I flat out had someone tell me that I did not get as much of a merit increase because the other individual had a family to support.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: And when that type of logic is built into things like promotions or parent increases. Yeah. That, that makes it hard. It's because, like, well, if I was a single mom, maybe I would have gotten that promotion. Yeah, yeah. Not based on your abilities or what you've actually provide, you know, the contributions you've made to an organization.

Speaker B: So to me, that's really what counts. Merit. Right. Your contributions. What are you able to provide to the organization? And the merit based, I think is the most important regardless of anything else.

Speaker A: Yeah. So let's, let's talk about you. Obviously you've got a great resume and, you know, you had the opportunity because of your travel. I don't want to say skipping jobs, but going from one job to Another, which gave you a great amount of experience with multiple employers over the years. And now you've got. What I want to say is a fabulous job. Maybe you can tell us about how your career jumping from going. Maybe that's not the right word. Going from one job to another has prepared you for the job you now have, which is, you know, cream of the crop, in my opinion.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And thank you for that because, yeah, I wasn't even looking. I was working at Pacific Northwest National Lab, sitting in a nice, cushy, you know, office, thinking that three years till I can retire. You know, everything paid off. I'm. I'm done. You know, this is the downhill. And, um, you guys both know Patrick Jester.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: I get this text message from Patrick Jester saying, can I pass your name and resume off to someone I think might. You might be a good fit for. And I was just like, you know, might work. Text him back, say, sure. Then he's like, can you send me your resume? And so that's. That was back in October of 2025, and I may be. I maybe misspoke. It might have been September. It could be longer. I know it was in October that I actually was. I was reached out to by Carlton Industrial Solutions here in the Greensboro area and started a conversation. And I wasn't looking for a job, wasn't looking to move across.

Speaker B: That's time to find one. Right.

Speaker C: Washington state to North Carolina. But there was something about their presentation of what they wanted to build and what they are building, um, here in the Greensboro area that just really resonated with me. Not just as a metrologist, but as a person. You know, their core values, their mission, their goals. And so, yeah, I joined Carleton Industrial Solutions in November of 2025 as a general manager for the precision division. So Carlton Industrial Solutions has several different enterprises. We've got obviously industrial scales and we also have a, uh, crane hoist and rigging, Carlton Automation. We've got some safety training aspect of our business core and then precision. And they'd been doing some, you know, as a premier Mettler Toledo distributor for years. They had a lot of work on the analytical balance and, you know, moisture analyzers, that type of work, but not really into the general purpose measuring and test equipment. And so, yeah, that's how I got out here to Greensboro. I flew out once, met the team here, did an interview. Didn't even realize at the time that it was an interview. Honestly, I thought, I thought they wanted someone to just consult with.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Because it wasn't. But Then I realized, hey, I think they really want me to. Anyway, um, and when I, um, when I talked with Paul Caper, who's my, my manager here, he's the president of Carlton. And when I talked with him, I said, he said, well, could you move? And I'm like, I, I sort of laughed because I, uh, at the time I was living in Washington state, right behind a house I own in a 24 foot travel trailer. I was renting my house. My goal was to be.

Speaker B: I thought that's where you were headed.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: My debt was my, my goal was to be debt free in three years. So I'm like, okay, well, I'm going to rent this house. I got this one as a short term rental.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So I told him, I said, yeah, I could move.

Speaker B: So it was easy for you.

Speaker C: I give two weeks notice.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Are you going to be around for a while now? Are you? So you're not going to retire then? I'm assuming right away, actually.

Speaker C: That's, that's. You know what, it's amazing when you are in the right job and when you have the right vision, the right focus, the right people around you. I haven't even been thinking about retirement. I have been so excited about what we're building here, and I've been so. I just engaged.

Speaker B: That's amazing.

Speaker C: And instead of just feeling like, oh, I'm reviewing another certificate or I'm dealing with another quality issue with a third party vendor or whatever, I'm actually breathing life. And, um, I just conducted a three day training event in Charlotte at our training facility there. And it was just, it was fascinating to see people absorbing. You know, we were just talking basic hand tools, um, pressure, temperature. I mean, just the going back to the basics. So we're building something from the, from the ground up. We don't currently have a lab or we're building one. Well, we don't currently have a full team. We're building one. We're training them. And so it's, it's very exciting.

Speaker B: So there's a couple of things I take from that, and that is that you feel like you walked into this job very easily, but not really. You put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into your career. To have that advantage for people to recognize your abilities, that's amazing. Congratulations.

Speaker A: Thank you.

Speaker C: Power.

Speaker A: Let me share with you, Danae, do not retire.

Speaker B: Uh, from a man who's retiring.

Speaker A: No, I'm going to probably be two personal here. But you know, you, they have always said this. When you retired, if you love Your job, don't retire, just continue doing it for as long as you can. And I'm semi retired and I, I help out, you know, nept when they need help for technical advice. And even though I'm still on the board of directors, I'm kind of even moving more to stop even providing the technical advice. But let me tell you, getting up in the morning now, I used to get up at 0600 every morning back in the days because of the military, blah, blah, blah. Sometimes all 500, I'd be up anyways. Now I don't get up until 7:30 in the morning. And I'll be honest with you, I'm bored. I, I gotta find more to do. And trust me, I'm busy doing stuff around my home. I'm busy doing this, I'm busy doing that. But it's not as meaningful as what you did in your career. And, but I always told myself I don't want to be one of those people that go to the, you know, the NCSLI conference with a, you know, a walk and uh, be one of those people that goes, oh yeah, he's been around for 100 years. I didn't want to become one of those people. But at the same time, I'll tell you, this is, this is something that becomes in, you know, in your blood is metrology. You live it, you breathe it for, for so long.

Speaker B: Hard to give it up.

Speaker A: Yeah, to give it up is hard. So, you know, I, I'm jealous that, that ah, you've got a great opportunity to spend a lot of good years left because you're still young. I mean, you got your, you've got your health and that's great. I'm not the only one that's going to tell you this. If you can keep that job for a long time, keep it, don't retire, you know, still enjoy travel and all those things, but keep your job as long as you can.

Speaker C: My, my goals have really changed. You know, I look at it now at where I'm at and I think, you know, man, I want to build this, I want to build this precision lab here in Greensboro. But I also want to see the other 17 branches that we support. I want to see, I'm like, I'm already seeing. Okay, yeah, we've got some opportunities here, working with some amazing individuals, great minds, great hearts and you know, really in the service industry, which is what calibration is. Yes, we really, you know, having the heartbeat, um, of our customers and our, and our vendors that we're Dealing with and the partnerships. And that's really what I'm finding here is what was missing on the federal side or the corporate side.

Speaker A: Sure, sure.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Let's. Let's.

Speaker A: Let's change shifts a little bit for just a couple of minutes. Let's talk about one of your passions, and that is ncsli.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: You've been. What's the word? Probably on the board for two terms now. Are you in your second term?

Speaker C: Yeah. Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. That's what I thought. And so now that you're sticking around, is there a possibility that you might be taking the leadership at some point in time? Csli, I know that you've. That you said you didn't want that, but maybe. Do you want it now?

Speaker C: No. Uh, you know, Georgette McDonald had asked me that a few years back if that would be something that I wanted, and I didn't, and I still don't think I do. Honestly, I am more of a, you know, servant mentality. You know, I'd rather be in the trenches. I'd rather be, you know, rolling up my sleeves and doing the hard work than trying to. Which is why this role as general manager for Precision is a little bit of a challenge for me, which is good. I need, uh. You need to be outside of your comfort zone, because I want to be down there doing it. And I'm often being reminded, what's your priority here? You know, it's like delegate, delegate, delegate. That's. Sometimes. That's a hard one. But, no, I don't. I would like to stay on, as in that support role. Um, I've been. I'm not saying that I wouldn't. I'm not saying that I wouldn't ever consider that. But right now, I, uh, mean, well,

Speaker B: I heard you say you weren't looking for a job, and look where you are now.

Speaker C: So.

Speaker B: You never know.

Speaker C: That's true. You never know. That is so true.

Speaker A: Well, let's talk about. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Denise.

Speaker C: I was just gonna say I never met. Yeah. I never imagined that my career would have taken that path. That it had.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, your role with NCSLI now is, you know, and, you know, I'm calling spade a spade. You know, because of COVID you know, the NCSLI has had some troubles, and there's almost what you say you're in a rebuilding stage of ncsli.

Speaker C: We are definitely in a rebuilding stage. That's perfect. Way to put it. The most recent board of directors, we, you know, we're going back to what are our strategy? What is our strategy? What is our goals or what are our goals? And um, trying to get realigned and rebuild. And that's perfect, perfect way to describe where we're at as an organization. We need to rebuild our membership. We need to re reinvest in all of the technical, you know, all those RPs and LMS, um, you know, laboratory management documents and those recommended practices. RP1 is still the most often referenced

Speaker B: document out there and often referenced and well hated. It's so complex. It can be very complex.

Speaker C: Right. And so we really need to get back to that. Um, I had a meeting on Friday with all of the committee chairs and not all of them, but they're all invited. And um, so that was one of my talking points was that hey, we really need to get back and we need to put the value out there for our members. And the way we do that is updating and making sure that everything that is out there that is, is available to our membership is relevant and current and the latest. And if I know we're working on something now with AI, there's, there's lots of things that we have potential to put into and provide as a service or as a um, knowledge source repository for our membership. And that's, that's what we need to focus on right now.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think the key value there is the value for your membership. You know, the me as a member, you know, I'm saying what value do I get out of being a member of ncsli? And if the value isn't there then I'm not going to do it, obviously. And so that's, I, as a member, I'm glad to see that the board and uh, you know, the committees are all looking at that because I go back to when I first joined NCSLI back in 1991. The most important thing, the most impressive maybe is a better word to use was those, those volumes of books back, remember we got the hard copy, they were this thick and I remember reading those inside and out and because you know, I was coming from the military and we didn't have as dedicated quality programs in military as we have, you know, at a commercial lab. But I remember reading those things inside and out and just learning so much from Those, from those RPs and those intrinsic standard books. It was, it was like a godsend back, you know, coming out of the military and trying to learn what I had to know as, you know, as a manager of a civilian facility.

Speaker B: Well, NCSL is how I Made my transition from the military to commercial sector. The membership log. So they used to send out. Yeah, I just looked through there and I applied to a couple of hundred jobs across the country when I was getting out of the Air Force. Um, because that was a good way to find where the labs were internally.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And even some commercial labs. But I ended up, uh, going to Fort Wayne for a very short period of time with ITD Aerospace. But very quickly from those resumes I sent out going to Martin Marietta in Orlando, which ends up being now Lockheed Martin. And that's all because of, uh, ncsl.

Speaker A: Yeah. So tell us about coming up, the workshop in Kansas City. Tell us why we should go to that.

Speaker B: I'm excited for this to be in

Speaker C: Kansas City to see Howard. Of course.

Speaker B: That's right.

Speaker C: The reason you should go to the Insula PSI workshop and symposium in Kansas City, Kansas is I think the most important thing that we're going to get out of there is the sharing of knowledge and the networking, the communication. We will be having committee meetings during those, during the conference there, which I'm really pushing that. Committees are so vital to our organization and, and we've really let them sort of decline and what we need to do is really put the value back into them. I know when I started with the organization I would jump on the utilities committee and we, I learned so much from people like Corey Peters and name just ran out my head. But all the guys at Duke Energy, all the guys up in uh, New England at the, at the power plants there, and it's like not just, not just metrology information, but information on our particular industries and how we needed to navigate things like delayed dating, like interval management, things like that. So we need to get that, that value back into those committees, which means making them alive, getting more OEMs. And yes, companies like Transcat, you know, third party suppliers, service providers need to get them more interested. But in Kansas City, I think, you know, there's going to be, obviously all of the training is, is going to be worth attending and participating in, but I think it's really going to be about the networking and rebuilding.

Speaker B: The networking has been the, the most important thing for me over the years now. The, the training is important too, and early on I took advantage of that. And I've been on a number of committees over the years still on the healthcare committee. But I think one of the things that I've seen evolve over the years and then kind of draw back is that ncsl, NCSLI has been kind of an inwardly Focused metrology industry event. And then we've started to get more of the customers, I'll call them the clients of metrology to come to these meetings. And then it's kind of drawn back in. So I think the outreach is a really important part because we generate these great documents and great thoughts and concepts and papers, but we're not really pushing those out to the industry as much as we need to. So we got to figure out a way to do that.

Speaker C: I absolutely agree, Howard. And I think the other thing we need to really focus on is we need to focus on those smaller labs. A lot of the large corporations that had internal labs, they sort of died down while they're building back up. I look around here in this area and I'm like, oh, Toyota has their own lab. Oh, Merck has their own lab. Thermo Fisher has their own lab. Everybody has their own lab. But I'm not seeing them participating in the organization. It's like, do they not know? Is it not? So there's a huge opportunity for us as an organization and not just our organization, but you know, asq, ieee, napt, all of these. Because we've gone through these life cycles of, you know, all the labs were outsourced, now they're all back internal. And so it's like we hadn't thought this through. We're not, we're not adjusting fast enough for the trends in the market.

Speaker B: And it probably starts with a brainstorming session with people smarter than me, but people that we have in the conference today that are involved and then taking a look at not just how do we solve this problem today, but we know that pendulum swing is going to go on over decades. How do we evolve and pivot to handle that?

Speaker A: Howard, you and I have talked about the fact that this new document, the new rewrite for 10,012 is going to have a dramatic effect on a lot of these needs for these small organizations, these internal laboratories, to need support from an ncsli. Correct. The rewrite is going to be huge for possible membership for NCSLI and other organizations that support the four or five man lab, if you will.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's out there. 2026 release of 10012 requires variances of measurement to be taken into account. The appendix talks about in detail the requirements for accreditation processes to be in place. That's going to change it for. And uh, again, 10012 applies to manufacturing, not to calibration labs. And that's going to change the way they perceive what they need to do. And either cause them to get more involved in NCSL and APT and all these organizations, or say, I just want to stay with my core competence. I'm going to hire that out.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, big opportunity for next. I'm sorry, you and I seem to want to talk together at the same time.

Speaker C: I'm sorry I told you.

Speaker A: I just wanted to wrap up the 10,012. It's a, you know, for the next five years. I think that's a great opportunity for, you know, to gear what changes you're making at NCSLI to kind of market these internal labs that are between two and 10 people. There's a great opportunity for that because that's what we work for a lot of these labs, just two to 10 people. And that's when NCSLI really needs to get those people to train them. Uh, again, just one more brief thing before I shut my mouth. Training is huge. I learned so much from ncsli and that's coming from someone that spent a lot of time being technically competent but not competent enough to understand what it is to provide a service order. I love going to the conferences back in the day because I could talk to hundreds of people and just have those great one on one conversations and that is just what needs to happen again. I miss that so much.

Speaker C: Well, I agree. That is where we've lacked the continuity over the last few years because we've lost a lot of those smaller labs. You know, I think even I was thinking about this. You can't really change the name of the organization, but the National Conference of Standards Laboratories, most metrology labs inside of um, an organization don't consider themselves a standards lab. Usually. We know when we think of a standards lab, we're thinking of the sandia, ah, the, you know, Los Alamos JPL maybe or you know, NASA. Ah, even then I don't know if they consider themselves a standards lab. I know Energy Northwest, that was in their name, Energy Northwest Standards Lab. They're in a nuclear internal lab, but was a primary lab for all that.

Speaker B: The terminology gets used and misused or just used different ways. Right. Um, so when I was with NASA at Kennedy Space center, that was standards and calibration laboratories. Standards being the reference laboratories.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker B: Calibration being the working laboratory. Right. And uh, with transcat we have reference laboratory, we call them reference laboratories, what a lot of people will refer to as standards laboratories for the calibration of the standards we use across all of our labs and for customers that require that as well. So I delineate that As a reference level, uh, laboratory versus a working laboratory. I think whether that's right or wrong.

Speaker C: Yeah. But I think the organization as a whole needs to expand and not just focus on reference laboratories, standards laboratories, primary laboratories, you know, we need to, we need to expand and include internal laboratories, third party laboratories. We need the Trescals, the Transcats, the cross companies, the Simcoes, the, you know.

Speaker A: Right, yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: So we want to direct everyone to ncsli.org to learn more about NCSLI.

Speaker C: Yes, please. Ncsi.org and sign up for the Kansas City workshop and symposium in July and come see.

Speaker B: Howard, we would love to have you flood the NAPT 30th, uh, anniversary party. Absolutely. Love to have as many people there as possible and take part in the training at ncsl, which, uh, is Saturday, Sunday. Right there.

Speaker C: Saturday, Sunday. And then there's going to be workshops throughout, I think Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, possibly

Speaker B: Thursday, and then presentations on topics that are very interesting and you have a lot to choose from, which is fantastic. One of our, uh, uh, managers I have attending for the first time and presenting for the first time. So that'll be good.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think that, uh, I think our guy Phil submitted an abstract as well. Um, I believe he did. I don't know yet. So. Well, unfortunately, we need to get into the personal side.

Speaker C: Oh, I thought you said we were done.

Speaker A: No, no, no, no, no. We didn't embarrass you. We got that. We learned a little bit more personally about you. So I get to ask the first question. Howard and I go back and forth and we ask you some kind of, hopefully some questions where we can learn more about you is what we want to know. So my first question I always like to ask is, do you have any role models, whether they be, you know, famous generals or, you know, father, mother, cousin, uncle, that really affected your life, that made you who you are today or really influenced you who you are today?

Speaker C: That's a really good question. I would say, and this is more in the last 15 years or so, but Don Quain, who was my manager, hiring manager when I was at Energy Northwest, I want to say that he has probably had one of the most impactful influences on my career, at least since 2010. So yeah, 16 years. Not from a technical competency part, but just from the way he managed and handled himself. I have never worked for someone that, that I felt is supported, confident. I knew he had my back. I knew that he had my best interest in mind. I felt completely empowered under his leadership. And that's Something that you don't always get. So from just career wise, that's the first thing that came to my mind.

Speaker B: Um, so really good leadership, right?

Speaker C: Amazing leadership.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: I, um, never once, never once doubted. Integrity. Doubted. You know, you knew where you stood. We still text. You know, it's like if I could have had his mentorship and leadership back when I was, you know, in my 20s, could be maybe the President of the United States or something like that. I don't know. That's, that's the kind of, you know, when you feel.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Going back. You know, I've got other people that I've looked up to over the years for other different reasons, but just from, um. That's the first thing that came to my mind.

Speaker B: That's good. All right, let's jump to travel. Where in the world would you say you have to go back to? And I'm. I know you're probably going to say Alaska, but besides that, where should we go if we haven't been there?

Speaker C: I can't really say that I have a place that I want to go back to.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Although I have been talking about wanting to retire in either Montana or Wyoming. But I've always wanted to go to Belgium.

Speaker A: Oh, love Belgium. Oh my God. You gotta go. I love Belgium. I was stationed in Europe for most of my, When I was in the army. Most of my overseas was European theater. Belgium and Brussels is absolutely gorgeous. You've got to go.

Speaker C: I'm, I'm a little jealous. I think my brother's going to be flying out here in the next few weeks. But, um, yeah, I have not been yet. I would love to. Um, my sister and I back. The one that was in the Marine Corps with me, um, we used to talk about, you know, we should go to Belgium. You know, sort of like the Belgian waffles, you know, Belgian fries.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, fries. Fries with mayonnaise.

Speaker C: So it's just always been on my bucket list. But I've never been, so I don't

Speaker B: know if I want mayonnaise. So, um, I'm not the odd one out. I, I used to do that and I still do like that.

Speaker A: Well, that's, that's, that's how they serve it in, in Brussels and you know, all, all throughout the Amsterdam, Netherlands is fries and mayonnaise is more popular than ketchup.

Speaker B: It's pretty good.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. No, you would. Absolutely. If you like architecture, you know, going into Brussels it is, you know, that was the number one reason why they, they surrendered immediately because they didn't Want to be bombed out. You know, the. The architecture and the buildings and. Oh my. It's just so gorgeous.

Speaker C: Fascinating for me. Yep. That's exactly why I would like to go. When I was stationed in Okinawa, um, I went and toured some of the old castles and ruins there. And I mean, just thinking how many amazing things I saw on just one little tiny island to be able to explore that whole area in Europe would just be. Yeah. Uh, I'm definitely. I love old historic things. I like old things.

Speaker A: Do you like to read, Dana?

Speaker C: I am an avid reader. I'm a speed reader and I read more books than most people read in a lifetime. In a year.

Speaker A: No, Kitty. Wow. Well, then. Then obviously you don't have a favorite author. You must have multiple authors that you enjoy reading.

Speaker C: Oh, my goodness. I have so many favorite authors, it's not even funny. My go to. If I'm going to find a. A good. Just a good book to relax and read, I would probably. Um. And that's a hard one. Yeah. Don't ask me how

Speaker A: we got her. We stumped her.

Speaker B: Well, because she's an avid reader and there's so many.

Speaker C: Yeah, there are too many. So many. Yeah. Colleen Coble right now is probably my. My go to favorite in. In that she. She reads re. Writes like fiction, mystery type thing books and she always keeps me guessing. But, um, yeah, I have got a lot a favorite. Aw tozer. If I'm looking on more of a deep philosophical side. Read my Bible a lot.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Nice.

Speaker C: It's always my go to.

Speaker B: There's a good author.

Speaker C: Yeah. Read a lot. Yeah, I read literally. I probably have 18 books checked out right now on my digital library. And, uh.

Speaker A: Um. Wow.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, uh, I should probably read more books. And the reason is when I watch movies with my wife, especially if they're, you know, fiction or murder mystery type thing, within five minutes, she knows who it is. Uh, it's this person. And then we get through the movie and sure enough, it was. So she ruins that. That's a spoiler moment. If I read the book, then. Then she's not sitting there reading with me and telling me who it is.

Speaker A: Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Well, believe it or not, we've gone over an hour.

Speaker C: Wow.

Speaker A: Yeah. Denise, as it always happens, is. It goes so quick. You have this opportunity to have this great conversation, which I want to thank you for opening up with us today. It was fabulous.

Speaker B: Um, I want to squeeze one more question in. I'm going to go back to my 4M. What is your most Memorable metrology moment in your career. What stands out as the most exciting or impressive or surprising thing that happened in your career so far?

Speaker A: Besides meeting M. Howard?

Speaker B: Besides that notwithstanding.

Speaker C: Honestly, it's. It's. It's an event that happened in very small time. Um, I remember I just started at Raytheon Missile Systems. I was a very, very, very short time. They overhied, laid us off. Two of us off, after hiring four of us, which was okay. I was pregnant at the time and enrolled in college, so trust me, it was a good thing. But while I was there, they had a technician there at Raytheon in Tucson that had this. They needed this system up and running. It was. And. And it was an 8902. And they're like, we. We don't have a replacement. We can't get one. We, you know, we've got to get this thing up and going. And I mean, literally, I was like, day two on my new job, right? I'd left GTE to follow my husband to Tucson, Arizona. And, um, I'm day two on the job, only female in this lab. And I go into the electronics lab, and they're like, I'm hearing them talking, and no one's asking me anything, but I'm hearing them talking. And I finally just spoke up. And I'm like, I can probably help you with that. And everybody was so skeptical. It's like, I don't know, like, maybe they thought I just started in calibration or something like that.

Speaker B: Get along with a new girl. And then you did it.

Speaker C: Yeah. So. So anyway, I had that. I had that 8902 diagnosed, troubleshot, diagnosed, and repaired in the same day. And they were just like, wow, we've been struggling with this for so long. And I'm like, awesome. Uh, but once you've seen, you know, like, once you've seen a component, you know, it's like, oh, you know, you. You recognize those symptoms. And anyway, that was my, like. And after that, everybody was. Come and talk to me. They come ask me for questions. And, you know, and that was good for the. Whatever, three months I was there.

Speaker B: Yeah, you slave the dragon early on. Um, yeah. That's great.

Speaker C: Anyway, but that was. That was my. My moment. Yeah. And it was funny because I was listening to. You know, I was in a bench, as you can probably imagine, benches. I was in a bench. And they were talking over. Basically talking over me, you know, and, uh, finally just spoke up. So, yeah, that was probably my best.

Speaker B: Oh, that's a great moment. All right. Thank you.

Speaker A: Well, we definitely would love to have you back. I have a series of questions that we never even got to even get to question number one. So that's how great conversation this was. I want to thank you so much for opening up.

Speaker C: Thank you, Josh. Thank you sharing.

Speaker A: It was fabulous. Howard, any last words?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Loved getting to know you more on a personal level as well as your career, your background. Didn't know that you and Jeff had been tied together that far back. So that's awesome to know. Thank you for being on the show. Glad to have you.

Speaker C: It's been my pleasure. Thank you guys. Sorry it took so long for us to uh, together but no, perfect time.

Speaker A: Any last words that you have?

Speaker C: No. If any of your listeners don't know about napt, you definitely need to find out because it's definitely the best path forward. If you're doing proficiency testing, definitely easier to manage than doing it yourself and trying to manage everything in house.

Speaker A: I, um, I love it. We should, we should get that in writing and have you sign and put up on our website.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Well, you know, there's, there's a reason that people choose nept. It's because, you know, 30 years of confidence in, in what it does. You know, they, they're really, if you do the comparison denae, there really is no comparison to what we have. Whether it's our award winning customer portal, it's our full time staff, it's our technical advisors, it's just the complete package that NEPT offers to support accreditation and that's what we're there for. And without folks like yourself supporting nap, NAP would not be where it's at. We wouldn't be able to do 30

Speaker B: years of service which we've done, supports accreditation. But also there are labs who use proficiency testing who are not accredited because they see the value in it.

Speaker A: There is, we have probably about 10% of our clients are not accredited. They see the value. So I, I love to say at the end of the program, you know, if you're not participating in proficiency testing to prove your technical competency, then you're not proving your technical competence. So if you want to prove your technical competence, you need to sign up for a PT today. If not with nap, do one yourself. But you've got to be doing it, simple as that. So with that, I want to say thank you for listening to another episode of Chat Nap with Chuck and Howie. Like it. Share it with your friends, tell all your friends to take a listen and we look forward to you on the next episode.

Speaker B: Howie is he out?