Season 2 | Episode 12 with Ken Racen from Applied Technical Services, LLC

Speaker A: Greetings, fellow metrologists. Welcome to another edition of Chat Nap with AI Chatterbox, Chuck and Hoey, a podcast dedicated towards metrology. My name is Chuck Ellis, and my co host for the podcast is Howard. So what's going on with you today?

Speaker B: Anything exciting here for the podcast that's exciting?

Speaker A: Well, let's get right into our, uh, guest. So let's talk about Ken. Ken Racine is the founder and the CEO for an organization called Metrology Institute. It's a nonprofit 501c3 organization dedicated to advancing measurement science through education, certification, and workforce development. With over 40 years experience in metrology, quality systems, and laboratory leadership, Ken has helped shape the future of precision measurements across critical industries. He holds an MBA in business, and in it, he has certification for an ASQ quality auditor. He's a calibration technician, CTS holder, and he's a lean Six Sigma, um, specialist.

Speaker B: Perfect timing.

Speaker A: Perfect timing.

Speaker B: There's the man of the hour. And by hour, I mean at least 60 minutes. Ken, welcome to the show. Glad to have you.

Speaker C: Hey, thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker B: I was trying to think back of when you and I first met. I'm thinking it was around 2012 or 2013, maybe. You may have been still or just wrapping up with Southern California Edison. I had met Tim Mason, and I was looking at the auctions of the equipment, and we ended up buying quite a bit of that. And I think that's maybe when we first met. But then I remember seeing you at, uh, ALCON after that. Was it Rafael Munoz that was there?

Speaker C: Yeah, Rafael. Yeah. Good friend of mine. Yeah. Since. Since retired. Moved to Texas.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: So, yeah, we go back, uh, at least 14, 15 years.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Ken, I'll bet you don't remember when. When we first met?

Speaker C: Not specifically, but it's been a few years.

Speaker A: It's been. Yeah, it's been. It's been almost 25 years plus.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Uh, your old boss at Southern California. We did one of our first regional ILCs at Edison, and I remember meeting you going down the hall. You were. You were busy, and I got introduced to you, like, in 13 seconds. Was. Was the introduction between you and I goes back to where Edison sponsored, you know, regional ILC 25 years ago.

Speaker C: Uh, they did a lot of sponsorships. It was a great, great organization and really contributed to the metrology industry.

Speaker A: They really did. You know, and. And I, you know, they were part. You know, why NAP was able to get off the ground? Because they. They stood up, you know, and you're. I mean, I Love your, your boss. And uh, he, he was a real, you know, person that really wanted to see NEPT succeed. So part of the growth of NEPT goes to people like your old boss at.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's great to see that lab closed.

Speaker B: Oh, ah, everyone was. That was a world class TR organization.

Speaker C: Had some very, uh, very talented people there also. You bet. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: Well, we're here today to talk about your latest endeavor, which I kind of hinted to in the introduction, Ken, is a huge undertaking. And so we're talking basically about the Metrology Institute. So rather than me talk about it, why don't you share with us exactly what it is, maybe what you're trying to accomplish with it and how we can. Not only can, you know, Howard and I help you, but how the metrology community can help you with your endeavors as well.

Speaker C: Sure. Well, as we just spoke, you know, we've all been in the metrology industry for a very long time. I go back to the early 80s.

Speaker B: Um, me too.

Speaker C: When um, actually, you know, growing up I was. My grandfather had started a calibration lab in St. Louis called the Industrial, uh, Service Laboratories or ISL for short. And then um, over a period of time that ended up being. Becoming transcat St. Louis about 30 plus years ago. But I pretty much grew up in the metrology industry. Been in it for probably uh, 46 years now. And over time I keep seeing the same thing. You know, we. Metrology industry has depended upon the military for its calibration technicians, specifically, you know, female and TMD technicians. But those individuals are retiring and uh, there's a big gap with the military. It's coming out of the military and what is available, what the needs are. So I saw this coming some years ago. Like many of us about uh, two years ago, I said, you know, how can I contribute back to the metrology industry? And education, training, education was a big, big part of it. But what I didn't want to do was reproduce or reinvent the wheel of, of other professionals that are out there providing training. So I want the Metrology Institute to be kind of a hub, uh, where we can all, you know, collaborate and partner and offer the metrology community a resource for all different types of training and courses. Because I saw it as more kind of a sporadic sprinkling of training and there's some very good organizations and individuals providing that training today. But it seems to be segment and uh. So Metrology Institute formed as a non profit organization to the intention is really not to profit, it's to contribute back to the metrology industry. You know, I looked at the training that's available. Uh, there's a lot of good training courses out there, but that's what there are. They're training courses. They aren't uh, you know, accredited training. They aren't college credit.

Speaker B: Yeah, not a matriculating program.

Speaker C: Right, right. The other part was to recognize calibration as a professional trade. In order to do that you need training education from an accredited institution such as trade schools. The deeper I got into it, I found that it's very difficult for calibration labs to compete wage wise against other professional trades. The only way to do that is to have calibration programs to educate people in calibration and metrology as a professional trade with a two year degree. And that kind of sets the foundation to start and then the additional training as we go through our careers on top of that. So that's kind of Metrology Institute in a nutshell. I didn't uh, start it to create or compete against other, uh, organizations or individuals that are already offering training, but to uh, have a centralized resource for individuals looking for metrology training and also trying to promote community colleges or trade schools to offer calibration programs.

Speaker A: How does what you're doing align with the calibration Certification technician program? Because what I know now from inside part of the ASQ people is that they're really disillusioned somewhat with the amount of people that participate in that test that they take. You know, they had this big vision that that was gonna become a bigger than life certification program as well. And that kind of, you know, it's not getting the attendees that they want. And there's a lot of reasons for that. We can discuss that during the show if you want. But I'm curious, have you reached out to like the ASQ people to synchronize what you're doing with that program? And like you said, you reached out to technical colleges already. Where are you at in getting this accredited training up and running?

Speaker C: The ASQ certified, uh, Calibration Technician program is an excellent certification. Excellent program. And I can look at it as a foundational certification for calibration technicians today. Um, that's where it should all start.

Speaker A: Yeah, but they actually take the test after they've been trained. You can't take that test until you're a trained technician.

Speaker B: Yeah. Experience.

Speaker C: Well, yeah, until you have some level of training and some expertise. I know there's some prerequisites for that. Typically it's hands off training. It's foundational knowledge for A calibration tech. And I recommend all the technicians that I work with take that program. But to your point, you know I haven't reached out to ASQ yet to partner with them. Um, and the intent of the Metrologist is not to replace it, it's to promote those programs. I want to promote everybody's training program because I think it all benefits the metrology industry. So think of it this way. If there was a centralized organization that people go to and find all things training and education for metrology, that's what I want Metrology Institute to be centralized for that. In fact there's links on the website to the ASQ CCT training promoting that.

Speaker B: You know, you had shared with us the technology um, program that you're, you're recommending m trying to build. Do you mind if I share that with the audience?

Speaker C: Sure.

Speaker B: So here we're looking at um, the package that you sent to us. Uh, 20 pages. Right. So there's a lot of detail in here. I'm not going to read it all. But what I do want to do is share the curriculum that you're looking at for this program. And we're talking about you know, the foundations of metrology and safety. The 17 credit hours for that semester. Second semester would be calibration methods and systems, another 19. That's a pretty heavy load. And then a summer internship which I think is absolutely critical for this program to convert that theoretical knowledge to hands on applications. Semester three advanced calibration techniques, 16 credit hours. And then semester four industry integration and capstone. This is really uh, a good part in here where they get to the end result. The Capstone projects another 17 credit hours, total of 72 credit hours. Pretty thorough. And so you've had discussions with institutes on this. How's that going?

Speaker C: I'm uh, primarily focused on Missouri State Tech which is uh, one of the U.S. largest technical schools. And I've spoken to the uh, the president of uh school, Dr. Sean Strong. There is some interest there but there's some also some hesitation. So we're going to continue our talks into um, how we can make this a reality. Right. Um, the currently uh, Missouri State Tech offers 34 different technical programs, uh, geared towards skilled trades. Just about anything that you, any skilled trade that you can think of, they offer that those programs and so calibration really fits into what they're doing. They have electronics, medical m machining, um, they all use test equipment. And so there is, there is some level of interest there.

Speaker B: And that's really what you're promoting in this document is that metrology feeds all of these other industries and it's very critical to that. So I'm sure From that perspective Dr. Strong and the college are interested in, in this program, but they're a business too and they have to make this feasible to work. Right. And be profitable for them. So um, whatever we can do to help with that, let me know because I'm here locally as well in Kansas City area. And if uh, there's anything I can do to help with that, let me know. I appreciate that. Good effort though. Very strong effort. That's more uh, detail than I've seen in most efforts towards promoting a metrology program.

Speaker C: You know some of the uh, headwinds that I've, I've encountered and I think I enter this kind of naively that oh we can, can just create a uh, you know, an accredited program and go down that path. Well that's a, that's a long path. It typically takes four to seven years to become an accredited school.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Um, so leveraging existing colleges, trade schools is the best route that I can think of.

Speaker B: Yeah, makes sense.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: A shortcut does not have to do all that qualification.

Speaker C: Right. As well as leaning on our metrology community people that are already doing training, we have experts in the field that already offer excellent training. I've worked for Editorial for a while in the early 90s and um, they have an excellent training program on dimensional metrology. Jim Salisbury heads that up and um, they're expanding those, the dimensional metrology training. So I'd love to work closely with them to promote their training and uh, come up with some dimensional metrology curriculum for a two year program. Right. For dimensional, for dimensional. I'm specifically talking dimensional but there's other, there's other disciplines that um, other organizations or individuals are, are promoting and teaching today. There's sign calibration, they offer some great courses in, in metrology and quality. There's uh, A2LA workplace training. There's um, like Morehouse uh, offers some on um, forest. So there's a lot of training resources available in the metrology community that love to work closer with and promote.

Speaker A: Uh, their training is your endeavors to bring people into the field. Because these training programs that we talked about, you know they're all good and you want to kind of coordinate that and get them all, all under one roof. But these are for technicians that are currently most of them already in the industry. They're already, already employed by somebody and that training would be something that the employer would more than likely pay for if you will. But in your institute would be the technical college. They would, they would go to that program and then get into our industry. Is that correct?

Speaker C: Yes. Um, but the Metrology Institute, I don't see it becoming an actual institute as far as educational, providing that educational program because it just takes too long. It takes, takes a lot of funding, takes four to seven years to become accredited as a, ah, college institution. So I want to work on leveraging existing colleges and existing training and having those experts in the industry help in that endeavor. In other words, you know, help create curriculum, help create the training materials for these colleges and maybe even become a substitute instructors.

Speaker A: Oh sure.

Speaker C: So. Or sponsors of um, certain classes.

Speaker B: Yeah. So Metrology Institute would draw the resources together to create these opportunities through colleges, universities, trade schools and companies like sign calibration or A2LA workplace training as QCCT. Just pull those resources together to make that possible, which is not today. And what we're missing today is that introductory, like you said Chuck, that introductory program to get a two year degree. Um, so you can take somebody who has no experience whatsoever and get them through that program and into the workforce. And then other advanced training could be from, specifically from these uh, uh, a tool, a workplace training or sign calibration or others where you're focusing on a specific discipline or sub discipline. Correct.

Speaker C: When you have young people who want to pursue a skilled trade and they approach uh, these trade schools or colleges, calibration is not on the menu. It's not offered. So we're losing a huge opportunity to introduce young people to calibration.

Speaker B: Yeah, the effort of the committee that we've had at NCSL that got the Department of Labor to introduce calibration technologists and technician titles is a first step now. So that gets it into the handbook that college and high school advisors can use to help point students in the right direction. But it's two titles in a sea of hundreds or thousands of jobs and for them to pick that out specifically to make people aware, it's not likely to happen. So it's a first step. It's a small step. Took a lot to get it there, 20 years. But there needs to be more. And I see this Metrology uh, institute as being that mechanism to take it that next level.

Speaker C: We want to be a catalyst, you know, or springboard where, where we can help launch Metrology education to the next level, uh, by leveraging what is existing out there by leveraging organizations uh, that currently offer training courses and just bringing it together under you know, kind of one, one Umbrella, you know, to collaborate with everybody, to partner and um.

Speaker B: A single go to source.

Speaker C: Exactly. You know, go here and then these are all the resources available from different organizations and promote. And promote those organizations. Uh, you know, you mentioned the Bureau of Labor, labor and Statistics. I think it was in 2018 when they first. When you guys first were able to get.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, so the Occupational Classification Committee tried to get that into the next entry because it's only once every, I think, eight or 10 years that that handbook has changed from Department of Labor. And uh, they rejected it the first time. And then Chris Grashnan, who was the chair of the committee, kept pushing it and he got it into the next one. So it took about 18 years to get that implemented. And, uh, it's an uphill battle, but again, all of that work to get those, because there was nothing prior to that for calibration as, uh, far as job classifications go in Department of Labor. And that's usually where guidance counselors point students to. From jobs that are available. And they look at the statistics and say, what is the rising statistic for the next wave of, uh, occupations that are needed? Here's where you should be focusing your efforts. In college or trade school. Uh, again, it's, it's lost in a sea of different jobs and trades. And so it doesn't get the attention it needs. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: So being in the metrology industry for so long, you know, you look around and look at all the different trades that require, uh, education, require some type of certification and even licensing and which calibration technician is not, uh, there. Think about, you know, the importance of what the metrology industry does for, for every industry across the board. And there's no specific requirements or licensing required to be a calibration tech. Yet the person who cuts your hair has to be a licensed beautician.

Speaker B: Right? Yeah. Certainly the impact of the calibration process and all the different ways it can go wrong and the ways it can go right takes control, requires controlled processes, documentation, training, standards, environment. And without those controls, you can have disastrous results. Now, I don't want to raise the alarm because a lot of people will say, and rightfully so, there are checks and balances in a manufacturing process or there should be, to catch those things, uh, before they become a problem. And that's true, but it doesn't always catch everything. There's a factor of cost, safety for the products and the processing of, uh, components of the product that are being manufactured that can have an effect negatively on the production company.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: The manufacturing company so there's factors that are involved that make that important to do. It's not just make sure the equipment is aligned and measurements are correct. It's the result of the cost and safety that can come from that. If it's not controlled.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. I mean a big part of metrology is trust. And when the technician asked me, so why do we calibrate? What's the whole purpose of calibration? Uh, I said, think of yourself as a, uh, detective. You're to detect auto tolerances conditions and report those to the user, end user of that equipment so they can in turn evaluate the impact that may have had on their processes and their, or their manufacturing. So you're looking for that needle in the haystack of uh, non autonomous condition to report that back. So that's a real, in my opinion, the real purpose of calibration is you're not only ensuring that it's intoxic, but more importantly you're trying to find what could be raw or autonomous very quickly.

Speaker B: So you mentioned needle and haystack and that's what it should be when you're running an optimal calibration program or measurement assurance program. If you're not running it optimally, you don't have the right intervals, they're too long, things are going to be failing, they're mishandled, misused, not stored properly. A lot of reasons why equipment can give you bad measurements without you knowing it. And so you're going to have more than a needle in a haystack if that CAL program is not in control and you'll be finding more out of tolerances. But the job is to manage the whole program. And that's really what the metrology perspective is as opposed to calibration. Calibration is the act of the calibration event, comparing an instrument to a standard. Metrology is the overall overarching look at the measurement assurance program to ensure that it's not impacting product. And there's so many ways that can happen. And a lot of our papers that we write in the metrology industry are focused on that.

Speaker A: Yeah, I want to add something, Ken. I want to build on something you said that has always been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. And I've used this example, you know, in some presentations that, for example, like the forensic, you know, analysis people that investigate crimes, you know, they, they, they do this stuff that's life and death decisions based on their analysis and they use equipment that's supposed to be, you know, uh, calibrated and like you said Ken, so elegantly, there's nothing that says they even using accredited calibration on their equipment. So how are we verifying that these measurements that are being taken are accurate? They're correct. When you have forensic people that are, like you said, they're licensed and they have to do all kinds of training and ongoing training throughout the year to keep their license. But the equipment they're using is not, and there's no validation to the equipment.

Speaker B: You know what the irony is of that? Forensics and medical technology for like lab results and things like that all come with a uh, measurement and a margin of error, which is. Let me translate that. That's uncertainty in the measurement. Yet they're not using accredited or qualified equipment, uh, every time. How are they getting that measurement of error without that piece of it?

Speaker A: Well, I'm not saying they're not using the right equipment. I'm saying they haven't proven that the measurement is accurate under quality standards.

Speaker B: Sure, yeah. Uh, interesting, interesting dilemma now, uh, going

Speaker C: back, you know, years, when I, when I started Metrology we worked under Mil Std 45662A and that was basically a uh, self regulated industry. We had, ah, you know, our customers would come and do audits, quality audits, you know, on a regular basis, probably two or three a month. And along came NCC 540 and then uh, ISO 17025. All of those are voluntary standards. You know, to be a calibration lab you don't have to comply with any of those standards. They're all voluntary.

Speaker B: Well, it's interesting you talk about that because uh, this week I attended a presentation on ISO10012 for manufacturing. And that has changed from a type B guidance document to now a type A requirements document. The 2026 release of that. And there's now implementations of shall instead of should or could or must.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Or might. 205 instances of shall in this new document with appendices that talk about measurement uncertainty and how to calculate that and how to get into those details. And the requirements are that you have to control the variables and the measurements in your measurement assurance program that's now driving all these changes that we've seen in the traceability chain are now driving down to manufacturing, which is where it should end up because that's what we're here for. Um, Metrology is under the Department of Commerce, NIST is under the Department of Commerce because we're trying to make sure that trade occurs fairly and safely. And so this document I think is A big step in the right direction. I know it's going to be a lot of cost for companies, it's going to take years to implement, but it is now culminating all of these changes to focus on controlling the measurements better than ever before. And with advancements in technology you have to do that.

Speaker C: That in combination with software to automate a lot of these uh, calculations, formation, uncertainty, to eliminate human error.

Speaker B: All right, so my next question for you Ken, is uh, about artificial intelligence. And uh, how do you see that, how do you see that coming into play in Metrology across the board? Just general thoughts that you might have on that. And do you have any plans to introduce that at all with the Metrology Institute?

Speaker C: Good question. I think artificial Intelligence AI is going to impact Metrology uh, in a big way. And I have some, some thoughts and ideas on how that will happen or how they recur. And um, the other part of your question was, does Metrology Institute have any plans to leverage AI for Metrology? I'm actually um, trying to teach myself how to create a uh, AI agent focused on Metrology. Metrology tutorial so that somebody who is in Metrology has some Metrology related questions or wants to do some analysis, can use that AI agent that's specifically trained in Metrology. Uh, there's a process, forgive I'm still learning this myself. It's called uh, rag, uh, where you actually upload the documents you wanted to reference. Reference documents. Instead of going out to the world and trying to come up with its own answers, you're just telling calculate measurements that it'd be based upon the gun. Here's the gun. And when I get to that point, plan on reaching out to NIST to see what NIST can contribute to that library of reference. Library of documents. Mhm.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that would control the limits of the AI agent instead of just using anything and everything and garbage included. Right, so you're controlling that to known references that are ah, valid.

Speaker C: Yeah. I'd love to partner with somebody who actually has created AI agents that knows a lot more than I do. I've done some software development in my prior years, but uh, a little rusty and this is a whole new thing.

Speaker B: Okay, listening audience, that's an open invitation to contact Ken. Fantastic.

Speaker C: I think it's going to make uh, a big impact on Metrology as far as uh, verifying procedures, actually writing procedures, verifying test results. It can be a big impact.

Speaker A: I have something, I don't know, off track a little bit here, Ken, uh, maybe you've already thought of this Maybe you haven't, but I remember years ago that I was involved in a project with a technical college up in Minnesota where they approach us. At the time I was really involved with ncsli. They approached us to help them train. Not train, but to put in place a program where they would require one semester of basic calibrations. All their technical programs were required to do this program. I worked with this college for about three years where we taught an instructor how to teach calibration basics. Is that something that you want to do as well? Because I think that would go a long way as well with your endeavors in the technical colleges. To have a number of technical colleges offer some sort of basic calibration program that all the disciplines, you know, whether you're, you're a welder, you still need to know what you know, you know, an inch is, you know, all these kind of things.

Speaker B: So there's a lot of. Was, uh, that Mr. O'?

Speaker C: Neill.

Speaker B: No, I'm thinking of someone else. Okay.

Speaker A: No, O' Neill was with the Ridgewater College, which used to have a online program, which is now defunct. No, this is a different community college up there. But they, last I heard, they still run this program where they require, you know, all the people in these trade def. In these trade programs to take one semester of basic calibration.

Speaker C: And that's another great approach. Instead of having a. So all of these, you know, these ideas and different ways to approach trilogy or calibration education is great. It, you know, it doesn't have to be a full two year metrology program. It can be augmented. If you're in, if you're taking a, going to trade school to learn electronics, you could have a semester of electrical, you know, electronic calibration. You know, sure. Uh, if you're, if you're taking a machining, you can have a semester of dimensional metrology. And uh, in one of my recent, uh, visits to the Missouri Tech, I was, I was working with the dean that, that oversaw the machining program. And so we went, he showed me all their, all their big beautiful machines that they had mostly were all donated by Haas. And um, they were, the students were huddled around this huge surface plate and they had their capstone projects out and their capstone projects was building this a small little, I believe it was some type of steam engine, some type of, you know, piston cylinder type engine. And um, they were talking about the problems that they had. And so I asked him, so what, you know, what type of, uh, problems did you have in building this and, and making it Work. And one of the students said, well, I found, you know, that the, there, um, was a, the cylinder was not quite round, it had kind of a lobe in it and so. Well, how did you measure that? Oh, I used a board gauge. And so I said, you know what you're talking about. Well, first I asked, have you ever heard of metrology? No, I haven't heard of much. What's metrology? So after querying them, they said, what you're doing with metrology? And they didn't realize that was an introduction to this group of students to taking machining to metrology. They're using, they were using hand tools to measure their products and, but they don't put two and two together.

Speaker B: You know, we've sponsored, uh, co ops and internships through Transcad. Pretty successful. The value there, I've talked about this before, but the value there is that you're taking. Typically engineering students who don't have much in their curriculum for metrology traceability, they might have an instrumentation class, but that's about it, if they have that at all. And so getting their hands on calibration, process, the equipment, understanding the equipment in greater detail than they had before, and understanding now the traceability component. So when they get out into becoming an engineer and they're required to control manufacturing processes, order, test equipment and all that, they have a better idea of what they're up against. So that's been successful. Surprisingly, some of those engineering students have taken jobs with us, um, and you would think that they'd go off into engineering at some point and they may. But even if they work with us for two, three, four, five years, they get an even deeper knowledge of calibration and metrology and the requirements and traceability to product, uh, which makes them better, I think, engineers from a different perspective. But if they stay with us or our competitors, either one, then uh, we get a lot of value from that, from that education that they've received. However, it's still kind of really not hitting the nail on the head and I think a two year program focused on metrology, focused on calibration, would be more appropriate for people who want to stay in calibration. Now that's not to say engineers, physicists, chemists wouldn't be welcome in metrology. They absolutely are because we need metrologists in the design and setup of uh, calibration processes. But for the technician levels in all of these calibration labs, internal, external, I think the two year program is very critical. I think that's going to be a very Important piece of it. I think it's a missing piece today.

Speaker C: And um, to Chuck, what you were saying earlier regarding augmenting existing programs with a semester of calibration is a great way of doing it. Also there's, you know, I don't have all the answers and need to lean on industry experts like yourself and other people to come up with more inventive ways to provide the education that our young people need in calibration metrology. And I kind of separate the two. Uh, you know, I look at calibration technician, you know, that skill, that's a, I looked at it as a skilled trade, sure. Versus a metrology engineer who actually took a four year program in engineering and not, uh, not 100%, maybe in metrology, but at least augmented their education with some metrology courses, whether they're a mechanical engineer or electrical engineer, what have you. But I think we're, as an industry, we're losing out if we don't start treating calibration techs and skill trade. And once we do that, it will elevate the entire industry. It will elevate it to a more professional level when it, like a, uh, commercial calibration lab needs to hire technician. You look at the ads and what qualifications they're looking for and you'll see, you know, associate's degree or preferred PMAL technician, you know, preferred PMAL experience or TMDE experience. But nowhere do you see in there looking for a calibration technician with a associate's, uh, degree in calibration armatrology.

Speaker B: Right. And I think part of the curriculum that you've built, there's uh, some critical steps there or courses that people I think often overlook. And you and I and Chuck see this from experience and watching new technicians come in, but English, composition, right. Communications, college algebra, basic physics, maybe even chemistry. Those are things that most technicians that go through these other programs don't get. They get the specialized training in a discipline or generally in metrology. They're missing those components that are critical for them to communicate well internally with their peers, with their management, and externally with clients. So I think all of those are very important components of the matriculating program.

Speaker A: Well, where do you see the program headed? What can we do, Howard and I and the metrology community to help you fulfill this endeavors?

Speaker C: I think, um, you know, on my website, metrologyinstitute.org uh, there's areas where you can sign up as a partner and just kind of partner with the Metrology Institute for partners. We help promote your organization. Uh, Any training classes that you offer to really help metrology be a centralized hub, um, for the metrology institute, for the metrology community regarding training and course opportunities. Um, the other thing is I'm working on a presentation to speak to companies that do offer those types of courses. I uh, mentioned Mitutoyo earlier. They have some great courses in dimensional metrology and um, how can we work with them as far as creating curriculums designed for, you know, community colleges or trade schools in dimensional metrology? They offer a lot in calibration in general. You know, how to calibrate, you know, micrometers, calipers, all the different uh, you know, tools. How can we boil it down into, you know, a real curriculum focuses on dimensional metrology. And the same thing goes with like fluke and you know, DC, low frequency, temperature, pressure and other OEMs that offer, you know, their metrology products and education. I want to partner with all of those individuals or organizations that offer that type of training. You know, earlier mentioned sign calibration and A2LA workplace training. All these people offer great training courses. How can we take those and have metrologists to not only promote that, but how can we design those to fit into a, to your curriculum? There's also quality, the 17025 quality aspect of uh, it too. And there's a training organization that specializes in uh, measurement, uncertainty, you know, how to, you know how to do that. Those are all important areas that, you know, I think it starts with collaboration and partnership.

Speaker A: Ken, you're not going to be able to retire because what you're, what you are doing is a big project. Like you said earlier in the program, you know, you're talking seven to 10 years to have this come to any, you know, fruition. So don't plan on retiring. My friend

Speaker C: who's talking about retiring, he never mentioned that.

Speaker A: Well, I mean I, I want to retire.

Speaker C: You know, there's retiring and there's retiring you retiring from one part of your life and, and uh, continuing into another. Right path, uh, is, is different and that's, that's basically my plan, uh, is you know, to support the metrology community as long as I can and as long as it has purpose, as long as it's moving forward, well, we're going

Speaker A: to support you, I know that from that, you know, from the business side we're going to support you and obviously, you know, we're going to get the word out there as well because I think that's uh, something else we can help you with is get the word out there what you're trying to accomplish and get these other individuals to get on board with you and work directly with you to help you accomplish your mission.

Speaker C: I really appreciate that. I mean it's going to take a community, going to take everybody to get this moving. And um, the metrology community has some great organizations. Mississippi Science Conference, the ncsli, you mentioned asq, these are all great organizations that have done a really fantastic service for the industry. And Metrology Institute is not, it's there to promote those, continue on with those organizations. I see it as more of a hub to try to bring all of these organizations and individuals together to promote one thing and that's metrology education as a central source.

Speaker A: Well, we're starting, we're not there yet but we're starting to run out of time. And so what we want to try and focus a little bit is we want to get a little bit personal with you. Ken, what got you involved with metrology?

Speaker C: Well, uh, I mentioned earlier, um, I grew up in metrology. My grandfather started uh, industrial Service Laboratories in St. Louis in 1946. So basically third generation, uh, exited out of that organization, you know, some time ago. And now that organization is TransCat St. Louis.

Speaker A: Uh, so your grandpa or your father, they're the ones that taught you how to make measurements.

Speaker C: They were very influential in that. You know in the early, in my early years I hung out the laboratory. I uh, learned a lot from the uh, calibration technicians we had at the time. And at that time there's a lot of analog, you know, test equipment, West Dine Leads, Northrop and you know I took over the service aspect of the business. I had a brother who took over the sales aspect of other business. And so I've really focused on service. I've always been a hands on type person, been a builder of things. You built my first uh, boat when I was in eighth grade and my second boat when I was in ninth grade. So always been you know, a hands on builder. So I like building things and creating things. You know, I got involved in um, software development back in the early 90s and um, basically out of, you know, having your own business, you have to wear a lot of hats. So I was involved in um, you know, trying to build software systems for their organizations. I ah, was heavily involved in quality, you know, sales and marketing, you know, everything involved in a small business, you know. From there I moved uh, to California, worked for Mitutoyo as a district manager, covered Southern California, uh, Arizona border, towns of Mexico. That was a very good experience. Learned a Lot about metrology because our lab was focused mostly on electrical, temperature, pressure and a little bit of dimensional metrology. So there went to metrologists and their metrology group as part of the Mudcast team. Learned a lot at uh, Edison and the, you know, the people in the metrology as well as mudcasting, very, very smart people. Uh, I'd, uh, like to think that some of it rubbed off, but, uh, we'll see. And then I work for uh, Alcon Eye Surgery Organization. So in all of these, in all of my history, it's all been regulated industry.

Speaker B: Uh-huh.

Speaker C: A lot in St. Louis was, uh, Aerospace. Back then it was McDonnell Douglas and also nuclear. We did a lot of uh, calibration for the nuclear power plants. The Callaway nuclear power plant when it was being built, also the uh, Illinois nuclear power plant and Wolf Creek power plant. So we did a lot of nuclear work. And as such we, you know, we had to maintain a very tight quality system to qualify for that work at Edison, you know, they were a nuclear utility. So everything we did at Edison was nuclear. Supporting the sandal pre nuclear power plant. And um, with Alcon was fda. So a lot of medical device pharma quality regulations and um. So all along the way I learned a lot about not only deepening my perspective and my skills as far as in metrology, but also quality as well and uh, looking at. As a holistic approach to ensuring products and people safety, public safety is uh, intact.

Speaker B: Where have you traveled that you think you would want to go back to or we should go to visit anywhere in the world?

Speaker C: Well, my wife and I really enjoy traveling to Europe and we've. We've taken some, uh, several trips to Europe. We recently went to Germany and uh, we're in Zurich. Took a tour. The uh, lymph Chocolate Factory. You. Another part of my. My path was, um. Back in the early 2000s, my wife started a chocolate company. It's called Downey's Chocolates. And so, you know, I helped. I, I kind of stepped out of metrology for a couple years to get that, uh, uh, off the ground. And so from. I went from kind of a metrologist to official taste tester. So that was, that was, that was a. A lot of fun.

Speaker B: A lot of change from a metrologist to a choctologist.

Speaker C: Yeah, I guess you can say that. So, you know, my, my, My uh, life has evolved around metrology. And also a big part of it is chocolate. We still do chocolates for friends and families during the holidays. Who doesn't love chocolate? Yeah, each, each home we've had, I've had to build out a chocolate studio for her now that we don't have the chocolate shop. So, um, so she has her own little, her own chocolate studio that she can play, uh, around with. But, um, so. But, you know, we, uh, we still have ties to California. We do travel a lot to California, visit our friends and grandkids. Most of them are in Southern California, so. And if I'm real lucky, my, my, uh, my son will let me use his sailboat and, uh, go take me sailing. So I used to do a lot of sailing in California.

Speaker B: Very nice.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah, okay. One more question. If you could go back to, you know, 25 years when we first met, what advice would you give me to stay in this business or not? What would you, what would be your. Your come to Jesus mean, if you will, with me on, uh, whether or not I should pursue a career in metrology?

Speaker C: Metrology, like I said, it's really not real publicly recognized as a career path. I think that's one of the, what's one of the problems? But the people who have been in metrology and have made a career out of it, I think we can look back and, um, it was a professional career for us and we offered a lot to the industry and product safety, people safety and, and keeping the wheels of industry going in the right direction. So, you know, we should all be, all those of us who have been in the metrology industry for a long time, we should be very, very proud of as far as what we contributed. And, um, it's a industry that is, it's in the background. People don't recognize it. You know, I can tell you share a story with you. I was at a aircraft conference last year and I, I sat down at the lunch table and there was a group of students who are studying to be, you know, aircraft maintenance mechanics. And so I introduced myself and asked, you know, what they have learned. And I said, well, have you ever heard of metrology? Oh, never heard, you know, metrology. And so a few minutes later, their instruction, their instructors sat down and, uh, so, you know, just talking to your students about, um, metrology. Ever heard of metrology? No, I never heard metrology. Incredible. Sorry. Yeah. I said, well, do you use torque wrenches? Oh, yeah. So it's, it's really eye opening when you start those types of conversations at how people don't even know what Trilogy is. I've never heard of it. And people that are, you know, crap that they should. Um, so it's you know, it's a profession that. It's just not very well recognized. But it's all around us, and people don't understand or realize it's everywhere. Nothing can be heroes.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Nothing is produced in the world without petroleum. Um, that's some type of measurement. And it goes back century. Yeah, it's been around for centuries. Nothing. Nothing new. As far as what you would do differently. Wow. I don't know. I'm glad you stuck with it. Let me put it that way. I'm glad you stuck with it. Yeah, we. We need an apt. We need proficiency testing, and I can see that being intertwined with furthering education. As far as, you know, how do you ensure that the, uh, student learned what they were supposed to learn?

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Learn it and can apply it properly. No, I actually have something, uh, I want to share with you in the audience. So tomorrow is Valentine's Day, which is the anniversary, Wedding anniversary for my wife and I. 39 years.

Speaker C: Oh, congratulations.

Speaker B: Thank you. And she told me that she has a gift for me that I've always wanted. It's somewhere in the house. It's hiding in plain sight. And I've been looking all over for this.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: During the podcast. I just recognize what she did. This. This plaque right here is an Air Force plaque, uh, just to commemorate my time in the Air Force. This picture was not in there. I didn't. I couldn't find one, and I hadn't dug through all of our photos to find one. She's put a picture in there now. This picture was taken on, um, February 12th, yesterday, 43 years ago. This was at my sister's wedding. So I just finished basic training. I'd gotten to Lowry Air Force Base for, you know, my p. Male training, and I came back home for my sister's wedding, and here I am in my uniform, very young person. And she finally put. Found it. Found that and put a picture in there for me. So that was really.

Speaker C: That's awesome.

Speaker B: Yeah. So. But that was my introduction time to metrology.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Uh, been in it for 43 years.

Speaker A: 23 years.

Speaker B: Incredible.

Speaker C: It's amazing how time has just flown by. Just, um, amazing. That is.

Speaker B: Well, Ken, I commend you on this effort with the Metrology Institute. I think it's what we need in the industry. I think it's what the future of metrology needs. And we are absolutely thrilled to support you in it.

Speaker C: I really appreciate that.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So. So any last words, Ken, that you

Speaker C: have, other than if you're interested in partnering with Metrologists just go to metrologistinstitute.org uh, under partners and sign up and they'll, uh, be in contact.

Speaker B: Fantastic.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Go to the website metrologyinstitute.org I'd be amiss if I didn't thank our sponsor, the national association for Proficiency Testing. As I always like to say, if you want to prove or need to prove your competency, your technical competency, then you need to enroll in proficiency test because there is no other way to prove your technical competency without participating in a proper proficiency test. So with that being said, I want to thank you for listening to the podcast. If you enjoyed it like us, tell your friends and look forward to the other ones that we have. It's available on the website as well. We've got plenty of episodes now, so go and listen to all of our guests. Ken, I want to thank you and we look forward to seeing you at the next trade show. Thanks, Ken Howard.

Speaker C: Thank you. You guys have an awesome day.

Speaker B: Um, you.