What Makes a Great PE-Backed CFO? 2 Veterans Answer

Host: Today we sat down with highly experienced private equity and PLC CFOs Alex Gersh and Carrie Hutchinson to find out is becoming a CFO the pinnacle or a poison chalice? Alex gersh brings over 30 years combined private equity and PLC Group CFO experience including a successful NASDAQ IPO and a major merger and most recently the successful sale of Evelyn Partners to NatWest for 2.7 billion pounds. Alongside Alex we have Carrie Hutchinson, also over 30 years experience in private equity environments as a transformation and turnaround cfo. She is known for delivering exit readiness and operational change. In this conversation we explore how the CFO role is evolving under pressure, how how transformation and capital markets intersect and what it really takes to build resilient finance leadership in complex, fast moving environments. This is a really insightful episode with two very different CFOs and Styles giving contrasting views on what it's really like to be a high performing, highly pressurized group cfo. I'm Carrie. Alex, thanks again for joining us um, this morning. Um, as a starting point, if you could just give us a very short introduction Carrie, maybe to yourself and, and what you're most proud of as a cfo.

Carrie Hutchinson: Okay. Um, so I started I think mostly in uh, consumer and retail, uh, side and brands. So I always sort of say my first career was in booze and shopping. So that's uh, it's all been downhill since then. But I think I've always worked on the commercial side so I've not come through the audit route, I've not come through that sort of financial control. So it's actually meant that I've actually gone into non finance roles as well. So I've worked outside. So I'd actually say probably my um, proudest role was actually at Gatwick. Um, and I actually negotiated there what to build in the airport which was really uh, unusual for it previously been architects and surveyors who did that role. And So I negotiated 800 million pound capex build. So every time I go through Gatwick I go, did that one, I did that one, signed off on that. So that's probably what I'm most proud of.

Host: Alex and yeah, welcome back. We were just discussing um, back by popular demand, uh, from last year. Um, just remind uh, audience uh, who you are and some of the things you've done.

Alex Gersh: I've been a CFO for about 30 years. Both public companies, FTSE 250, FTSE 102 NASDAQ listed businesses. I took one public and the New York Stock Exchange list is business and at the same time, I work with about. Probably about seven or eight different private equity firms. All kinds of industries, really, just, uh, from technology to gambling to wealth management. So it's been a very varied career. And I did start through the audit of Ernst and Winnie many, many, many moons ago.

Host: Yeah.

Speaker D: Super and proudest moment.

Alex Gersh: Alex, you know what it is? It's not really, uh. It's not one thing that I've accomplished. Probably the biggest thing for me is whenever I feel like I really help to make a difference. Right. Using to try to make a difference. And there are certain jobs where I had. When I had that feeling when we did the IPO of sport radar and I stood next to Michael Jordan, which was probably problem for him. M. But, uh. No, but, uh. But, you know, and. And, uh. And the guys around telling me, look, you know, we've had him, you know, we had a huge thing to do with this ipo. It was a lot of fun and. And. Yeah. So anytime I can feel like I've accomplished something, it's always a proud moment.

Host: And tell us, as a starting point today, then maybe, Carrie, just tell us about, um, your views on the CFO role in. In 2026.

Carrie Hutchinson: Gosh. Um. If you're asking how it's developed over the years, I think there's probably. You have to be more of a program manager, I would say a programme director. I think that's how I approach it, is that you've got so many different strands, so many different leads to pursue, that it's actually trying to be all over everything without trying to be the expert in everything. And I think that's what's key for me, is that, you know, as you step into the CFO role, you stop being the expert in every field, but you actually surround yourself by those experts and your role is to actually get the best out of them. And when you talk about what the. You know, you're saying you're making a difference. I think the things that make me proud about when I see people that I start working with and when I leave them, they're so much better. And that, uh, I get a real kick from. So I think, you know, those are. The different pieces around it is. I think there's more focus on people or there should be, rather than just what you're actually doing.

Alex Gersh: No, I agree. I think focus on people and developing people and bringing up the next generation is the most important thing. But I think fundamentally. Right. I mean, when I look at the cfo, I think I have said it before, it's really about allocation of resources. And it was like that 30 years ago and it was like that yesterday. And it's going to be like this another in another 50 years or 100 years. Right. Every company has limited resources. Those resources need to be allocated. What do you need to do? You need to have the metrics, you need to be able to measure, you need to be able to stop what's not working. That's really hard for companies to do. Right. Once you start something, you know, you just make excuses to continue. And that's what the CFOs need to do. Help the company make the decisions on the basis of data, stop things that don't work, invest in things that do and continue to allocate resources. While I couldn't agree more, really developing the talent, uh, every day.

Carrie Hutchinson: I think, I think you're right, Alex. Around what, you know, the piece for me is also about stepping out of finance. So your things about stopping other areas or you know, knowing what to stop, knowing when to sort of really double down on it. And I would say probably in the past finance was finance and now CFO is really there as uh, that sort of partner into the chief exec and certainly if you're in pe, leaning into the PE house. So actually you know, moving out of finance and that's, that's another pit that I really enjoy is that it's not just about the numbers. It's really about that broader piece and taking it down to what actually matters for the business. And is it cash, is it resilience? Is it that sort of fast pace and really being able to sort of move and be nimble? Um, and that's the biggest change I think is for the CFO is not just to be finance. That's really key. I think what the market into 2026 though is at the moment is really challenging. And I. There have been challenges all through the decades, but it does feel right now that the geopolitical uh, challenges are so much. And so having the resilience is the other thing that CFOs really have to do is build that resilience into the business that they can take some of these knocks and bumps along the way rather than actually it's a single focus and you just plod on it and make sure that piece. So, so definitely knowing when to stop, when to start. I definitely agree with Alex on that.

Speaker D: And can I just pick on the resilience point obviously, because you both had obviously fantastically interesting long standing CFO careers. Like how do you make your how do you. What do you do to make sure you stay resilient in a market that is. Does seem to be getting more and more challenging externally. The role may not change fundamentally, but what you're dealing with externally is, um, and what have been some of your more challenging moments in your career and how have you learned, what have you learned from that, from those moments?

Alex Gersh: Uh, I mean, think about, you know, people talk about geopolitical situation. It's not easy, but we had World War I, we had World War II, we had Cuban Missile Crisis, we had the communism, we had the communism. I mean, we had. What's happening now is no different. That's what's happening over years. And if you look at the companies, right, they're just growing through all that. We just continue. Some companies leave, new companies come in, new technology. I think probably technology is probably a bigger challenge than geopolitical stuff because we always have those kinds of things. Right. And I think this is, for me, one of the important things. You have to recognize how technological changes affect you. There's nothing we can do about a war, right? A war is going on. You need to make sure that your company is resilient by looking at cash, making sure you've got, uh, ultimately it's about cash generation. Right? You have to make sure you're not over leveraged, which a lot of private equity companies, you know, as, you know, significantly, uh, leverage. You have to make sure you have all that. You have to make sure you have the talent. But really, at the end of the day, it's what are the things that are going to fundamentally impact your business and how are you going to try to make sure you get through this? And you know, Warren Buffett always says he looks at companies that have this moat around them that can defend their position, whether it's their brand position, whether their sale position. Right. If you can help the company build that from the CFO perspective, then you'll be resilient.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.

Carrie Hutchinson: I, uh, may be operating in somewhat smaller companies at the moment, because if Trump raises tariffs, that really makes a massive difference. Um, we're also looking at right now with the challenges around shipping and freight about literally getting our ships through. So I do get that. It's always been there, I think where you have, on the slightly smaller scale of the businesses that are already stretched, um, I think that's where trying to catch up is really hard because. Because what you say is absolutely spot on. But when you're in it and you're not, you're trying to create Resilience in a space where it's really challenged, that's probably where it's really super tough. And so I think sometimes you almost have to, you really have to engage with your PE house about what is actually possible. Um, and they don't want to hear that and nobody wants because they've brought you in for the solution. But sometimes you've got to be that honest, honest broker. Um, and I think, you know, to answer the question on resilience, that's how I maintain my resilience, is it? Sometimes you have to acknowledge that just working your best and just working your hardest might not get you through. Um, and I think probably that that was one of the, the, you know, the, the, the biggest lessons I learned when I actually went into my first PE backed business. And um, you know, looking back, it was quite naive really. And I, and I went into, you know, to a, to better capital and John Moulton, who's famous for his, he's really tough and very successful. But it's a really quite a brutal approach and I wasn't ready for it and I just thought I can do this and I can do that. And I could see that this wasn't going to work. But I was still trying my best thinking that's okay so long as I try my best, they'll see that and they don't. Okay. M. And you know, that shows how naive I was. But I certainly, you know, so I, uh, that's my advice to people now is like, you know, if it's not going to work, you call it really quickly because you don't get any bonus points for being 90 there. Um, but having worked your socks off. So. But it is hard, it's tough to keep your resilience on that. But yeah, that's probably how I try and do it.

Alex Gersh: You have to call it, but you have to also provide the solution.

Carrie Hutchinson: Right.

Alex Gersh: They expect you to provide the solution. And uh, you know, sometimes it's not optimal but you know, you have to provide solutions to all of these problems.

Carrie Hutchinson: But that does require to some, you know, to have that honesty though.

Alex Gersh: Of course.

Carrie Hutchinson: Um, and, and I do think that's the other piece. The role of the CFO is being, you know, sometimes they're saying what everybody else is thinking but doesn't have the nerve to say it. Um, so the bit around the risk register. Absolutely. You can't just call wolf and not with the solution. But you do have to sort of say it because particularly sometimes you've got a CEO who's like, yeah, Whatever. And just doing positive. And you sometimes go, yeah, well, that's the happy path. What's the, uh, unhappy path? What if that happens? What if that happens? So maybe I start to put the black hat on a little bit more. I don't know.

Speaker D: And so when you go, we obviously

Host: speak to a lot of people as well, who are kind of aspiring CFOs, um, get a lot of questions, say, I want, I want to be a private equity backed cfo. Common sort of. I want to get into that role, um, and speak to a lot of people. You know, be careful what you wish for. These are, these are tough jobs. They require a certain level of stamina. We've talked about resilience. What would you say to, uh, those that are kind of, yeah, I'm looking for a private equity CFO role.

Carrie Hutchinson: Um, be prepared to act really quickly. Um, you know, it's a, it's a cliche of, you know, you've got 100 days to make a plan and come out in private. 100 hours. You know, certainly in the sort of mid, small, medium, uh, backs that I do. Um, you really don't have time. So you have to come in and assess and make changes super quick so that you're demonstrating that you can make progress and you can make change and you get engagement through that. Um, so it's the pace that I've found that's, uh, significant in the PE backed versus large organizations.

Alex Gersh: That's absolutely true. But I also think whenever young people ask me, give it a shot, if it doesn't work out, this is not the end of the world. Right? Life goes on, do different things. Right? But if somebody gives you, I always think somebody gives you an opportunity to get you out of your kind of comfort zone. Give it a shot and don't be afraid to fail. And everybody fails, right? We learn from it, we move on. If it's not for you, it's not for you.

Carrie Hutchinson: And I think maybe just to build is don't get distracted by the equity side and the payout, you know, And I think that's what some people do go into for is that they get seduced by the sort of large number at the end. Um, you know, it doesn't always happen that way. So, you know, do it. Give it a go. Fail fast, I think is a thing. Um, but, you know, don't get seduced by the payout. It has to work for you all the way through.

Speaker D: Do you think there is a. You've mentioned speed, Carrie, but do you think the CFO Role in a listed business is that different to a CFO role in a priority business with. I'm, uh, just very uh, interested to hear your story.

Alex Gersh: It's different because in a private. And it's different in a good way for private equity because you don't have to think quarterly. Right. You could think longer term PE guys, they're not patient, but they don't expect every quarter changes. Right. They're a little bit more patient with the public companies. You know, you're reporting it, particularly in the US listed companies, you report every quarter. The analyst gets hysterical every quarter, uh, the market gets hysterical every quarter. So it's a bit, it's a bit different. You get a longer Runway to try to do things. And if you agree a plan with private equity, and I do agree transparency is the most important thing, you have to respect the ownership. Right. They own the business, you work for them. Uh, respect that, give them the details, tell them what's working, tell them what's not working, you will get a lot more slack and you don't have to worry about insider information. You can tell these guys everything. You're talking to the analysts. God forbid you tell one analyst something you didn't tell everybody else. Right. There's a whole legal implications of that. So uh, there's, there, there are differences. Uh, of course also the public company boards are much more compliance focused in addition to being business focused. The uh, public, the uh, the private equity, unless they are in the regulated businesses are much less compliance focused. They are much more focused on kind of driving the performance.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah, the only build on that from a quarterback quarter perspective is if you're heavily debt laden, then you've got your covenants that you can't miss. And so that's the only other part. But I do agree that there's a difference that on the listed then it's more steady and continuous growth. Um whereas in the P, they can take the big hits. But the challenges I've found is really around covenants have probably been the toughest things to negotiate around and especially when you're trying to make significant change but keeping an eye on what you've got to deliver on the way. Um, and sometimes that's where I think you can really get into a real spiral that you're sort of quarter to quarter to quarter and you're not really getting out of it and just picking

Speaker D: up on obviously the relationship with the private equity or the board if it's listed and the importance of transparency and communication. But uh, tell us more about what Your thoughts on the optimal relationship between yourselves as CFOs and the CEO?

Alex Gersh: I think in every relationship, by the way, this is a relationship with the cfo, with a relationship with the CEO, relationship with your private equity owners, relationship with your board, relationship with your spouse. Quite frankly, it's trust. You build trust. Anybody you have a relationship with, you want to be effective, you have to build trust. How do you build trust? It's really simple. You say what you're going to do and then you do it. That's it.

Carrie Hutchinson: I can't really fault that at all. Um, I definitely think it's also having, um, the best ones of where you really. There's the trust and then there's the openness, particularly with the CEO and the cfo, that you can kind of have those calls and have those conversations and kind of disagree. Um, but healthily, because you trust each other. And I think, yeah, I, uh, think that makes sense.

Alex Gersh: But you can only disagree when you're in the room together. When you walk out of the room, you can't disagree because you can't lead the team this way. And they have to feel that there is single direction in which the management team is pulling. So you can disagree all you want in the room, call each other every name you can think of when you're out. Yeah, there is no more disagreement.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah, I, I think that's really important actually. And, and you know, across the whole of your management team and, you know, you actually, I think sometimes it's healthier to have those arguments almost in the room because you're surfacing all of what people are concerned about, what they're worried about, or they're engaged with the idea or not. It's kind of worse when everyone just nods and stands up and goes because, you know, there's probably two or three people that are just going to carry on and do whatever they want anyway. So, you know, having that kind of wrestle in the grass first is really important to sort of get out. But completely when you stand up in front of your team or your, or your face, your board or your investors, you have to be completely aligned. Definitely.

Host: And does that. The dynamic doesn't change, uh, characters. You've done a lot of interim management.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah.

Host: As and transformation. Um, does that change at all because you're there for a finite period of time and you've agreed up front often. Um, does that change the dynamic at all?

Carrie Hutchinson: Not for me. Um, so it's actually a phrase that I use when, you know, I'm describing it is, you know, I'M I'm not. I'm permanent while I'm here, but I'm just not here forever. So as an interim, I don't see treat it any different. You know, Um, I, I feel that I'm permanent and I'm working on the business as it's permanent. The objectives that I've got are just a bit more short term and I think potentially, I think this is a way that perhaps we should take CFO roles in the future, um, about trying to be much more open and honest about, well, how long do you think you are the best person in this role? And for me, that's how I always approach it. While I'm there, I am absolutely the best person for you. But I'll be the first person to say, do you know what? I think the next level has been achieved. Um, we've now got it to more steady state. You want somebody that looks a bit like this, bit like that, and that's not me. And so that's, that's that piece there. So I don't treat interim any different. Um, and I think it's quite interchangeable for me as a permanent on PE interim, it's kind of the same. You know, you're only as there for as long as you're absolutely delivering.

Alex Gersh: No, I agree. I. To be honest with you, I've never been interim because I'm not smart enough to get the business so quickly. So I need time to understand what we're doing before I can make the. Before m. I make the difference. Some people are very quick at this, but, uh, I couldn't agree more. I think the expectations from everybody, from your team, from the board, from the shareholders, is permanent, temporary. You're here to do the job you expect to do. You're expected to do the job and that's it, that's the end of it.

Host: Could you talk to, um, obviously we mentioned having experts earlier. Uh, uh, leading, uh, experts. Rather than being the expert. Um, could you talk to how you've plugged your sort of perceived blind spots as a CFO in your different roles with people?

Carrie Hutchinson: Well, I have a sort of permanent blind spot in that I haven't come through the financial control route. So I always lean into a really strong financial controller. For me, that's really important. But what I don't do is just leave them. Uh, you know, I'm still overall charge and overall responsibility, but it's really. And actually I find it can, you know, that piece around developing people and enabling them, I think that's where I go to it as well. So I put people in where I know that I've got a gap, um, but at the same time, they are very much part of the team. And how I sort of see how I develop people is really important. So I kind of liken it to, you know, I've sort of described it as, right, okay, there's a tightrope. Okay, you've got to walk across it. You're the one that knows how to do that. But I'm going to make sure there's a big net underneath you so you don't fall over. And I'm going to make sure that you don't have things, you know, being lobbed at you from the side and all that, but you're the one that's going to do it. And so that combination of plugging the gaps with people who are better than you are at, uh, those roles, but not leaving them isolated because they might not be ready to be that. So as cfo, you take, you know, as you were saying about, you have those arguments in house and then present a view out. Similarly with finance, you know, I defend my team entirely. We might have conversations in house about how things have to change, but to everybody else, you know, it's there. And so that's this kind of COVID that I think that I try and give my team so that they can really be the best version of themselves. And, you know, that's what I really enjoy doing, to be honest.

Alex Gersh: Yeah. I mean, there isn't much to say. I agree. You just get people who are better than you. You support them, um, who are technical. Right. You support them. And I'm always looking for people with the heart. It's not that difficult to find people with skills. M. You know, you can find a good tax person, but you can. You find a good tax person who will get on the phone at midnight or, uh, on Saturday. Right. If needed to be. Right. So you're looking for people with a heart and a desire. If you have a desire to drive the results, you want that person to be able to drive the results. So you find the skill, but then you find the heart and the combination, and then you find somebody who is better than you, and then you just take all the credit and everything goes very well.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah.

Host: I mean, you obviously hired a lot of people. How do you know if they've got the heart? How m. Do you test for that?

Alex Gersh: So the heart, you can't test for it while you're hiring the card. You have to watch, you have to observe. And actually quite A lot of times what I do is when I come into a job, um, I just observe people who are not. My direct reports are ah, one level below, maybe even two levels below because you find that heart in those levels as well. Right. So it is, it is not something you can interview and understand. Right. The good news is after you've been the CFO for 30 years, there are people that I know that I've had interviewers for seven years or six years because we work together. So if I have the opportunity to bring those people in now that you think you know those people, then you know you have a, you have a better shot of being successful.

Carrie Hutchinson: So I would, I would build on heart and also about attitude. So I particularly concentrate on transformational roles where you really are, uh, wanting to have a team that wants to change and isn't resistant to change and isn't resistant to doing things in a different way. And actually in a recent role, that was one of the key things that I sat down with the team and my direct reports and just went through, through every single team member and went, are they up for this change? Will they help or will they hinder? And I totally agree. It wasn't about their technical capabilities, it was really about their, their, their attitude. And we kind of cut from the herd the ones that didn't have the attitude and they probably self selected and thought they made the choice to move on. But we'd already identified the ones that we weren't all that bothered if they did move. So particularly when I go in on, on a, on a big change agenda, uh, that's really super important. And if you don't have it, you have to change it. You have to change it really quickly. And it doesn't matter how much they know the business, how much, you know, they've been there for 20 years, 10 years, whatever. If they're not going to drive it forward, it's, it's no value. So, um, and those are changes that I would make super early. So I definitely assess the people. Is this my core team to get me through this change? Really important. And sometimes you have to add in getting that blend of, you've got somebody who has the experience internally and is really up for the change. Brilliant. Then you bring somebody in from the outside who's there to do a job and sometimes you actually bring in consultants as well. But you always have to create one team. So that's super important that there's nobody start going, oh, that's you know, ABC over there. And that's, you know Def. Ah, here you are one team, and that's how you get it through. Um, and so, but I do want everybody that's in the team to be part of the company while they're there, to have that attitude. So even if they're there for one month, 10 months, 20 months, having. Having that attitude is super important.

Speaker D: And I'm just building on, obviously, earlier, we're talking about the advent of AI and technology change and how fast things are, uh, moving in that, uh, space. And I guess from your points of view, how do you think AI is changing the talent agenda within the finance and accounting space? And also, how do you see it changing the way finance delivers what it does?

Alex Gersh: I don't know if it's changing the talent agenda. You still look for people with the heart. You still look for the people who are willing to do the job, go the extra mile, and you still realize that the only way you're going to get very senior people like ourselves is to start, uh, you know, in the beginning and help people develop. Right. Somebody helped me, somebody helped both of us, somebody. And I'm going to help other people. So I'm not sure it, it changes that. Uh, part of it, but obviously, look, AI is. You have to think about it. You have to understand what is it doing to your cost base, what is it doing to your customers? Ultimately. Ultimately. Even as a cfo, Right. I know that private equity wants you to only think about ebitda, but, uh, you know, EBITDA doesn't happen unless the clients are happy, the customers are happy, unless they continue to come to you. And I think anything that could be done, any investments, talking about allocation of resources, any investments that can be done in technology to improve the client experience is more important, in my opinion, than any investment that can be done in technology to cut costs some more. Um, ultimately, it'll help, of course, but I think that we cannot forget our young people. We cannot forget that if we want senior leaders, we have to start early. Right? We have to go to universities, we have to get those people, we have to get them from schools into the organizations, let them understand how the business world works. That's kind of my approach.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah, I mean, I think that is a concern that, you know, how do you learn? Because I think, you know, I certainly remember back, and I'm sure you do, Alex, about, you know, you learn through your mistakes more than anything else. And having that sort of coach that sort of went, oh, no, you shouldn't do this and you shouldn't do that. Um, if we're taking a lot of that away and AI, you know, just generating those sort of pieces themselves. It's quite hard to see where the juniors get their experience from. Um, but having said that, you know, if you can avoid being there at midnight doing something, then, you know, and you, and you're able to finish the task by midday, then surely you've got more time to think about what you've actually done. So for me at the moment, AI is really about trying to bring capacity back in. And that's where I think it can make a massive difference. And you're so right about, uh, uh, if it's about customer experience or being able to reinvest in customer experience, that's really key. And a recent project that I was working on, we actually ring fenced the customer contact people and said our customer base needs to talk to a person and a local person. And we probably could have automated it, uh, a lot more. We could have looked at taking it down a different route. But you're able to then. But you have to choose what's really important and what actually differentiates you. And so, you know, the customer experience, whatever that is. Sometimes it's actually, you know, customers want to use an app and sometimes they actually want to talk to a person. So you have to decide where to do it. But I think AI will, uh, enable you to get to a quicker answer. But it wouldn't do your thinking for you. Not yet.

Speaker D: And how are you both, I guess, encouraging your teams to, um, embrace the new technologies that are out there?

Carrie Hutchinson: I don't, I think if you get,

Alex Gersh: again, if you get people with the heart, you really don't have to encourage them. They encourage, they, they, they, they, they're interested in development. They, they, they want to see what's going on in the world. Yeah, I'm always very open. People want to attend seminars, they want to learn, they want to, you know, I think that's a great opportunity for people to do that. You need to know what's out there before you know how to apply it to you. Right. So you have to constantly learn, constantly try to obtain that knowledge. And then, you know, we are not going to hold your hand every five minutes. Right. So you do have to use the initiative. Say, listen, I've seen this, this maybe is applicable to the business. Let me see how it works. Right. Trial and error is a good way of doing things. So it's a lot of onuses on the people who work for us to make those decisions. And it's up to us to encourage Them to find out what's going on in the world and how it can and make sure that they're feel very happy to actually go out and find those things and then utilize them.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah, I mean, I think in a way, just as we were saying before, nothing's new. There was a world war, there was all these things, nothing changes. AI is a technology that's enabling us to answer the same questions that we've been asking for decades, but we're just able to answer them more quickly now. And so I think I'm looking at some models that we're developing on forecasting on stock and ordering pieces and things like that. And you use AI to say what's my top five sellers in such and such markets? Market, you know, that's AI. But it's a uh, very simple level I think, not thinking that it's something that is this extraordinary beast that is so different sometimes it's just a really good enabler of answering questions that you've always asked, but much more quickly. And so rather than spending all your time, you know, cutting and pasting, trying and drilling in all these different pieces, you literally are typing in or in some cases vocally, but typing in and it'll come back with those 5, 5, 5 SKUs and 5 markets type thing and that, that's the sort of advance that you can then go, right, what's this telling me? And so your time is now spent on the thinking of what does it mean rather than spending two days carving your data to get to a bunch of answers.

Host: So do you think AI sort of adoption within the finance function and kind of trying to promote doing things better, quicker, cheaper, uh, comes from the bottom up or a top down leadership approach to kind of taking that view forward? Or is it both?

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah, I think it's probably all round, you know, it's coming from all the different pieces. Um, you've probably got, you know, a younger employee base that are more aware and more, you know, it's just common, common sense and come, you know, in the first nature to them. But at the same time it has to be investment from the business or your data partner colleagues in particular, where a lot of it is coming from that they are able to cut and dice and things like that. But as I say, I remember when I was working in marketing a while back and I was doing cash crew management way, way back and I was using data and spent three months analyzing the UK market and the drinks market. I mean that would be just done now instantly. And the time I would spend would be about influencing when I was talking to Sainsbury's and Tesco. But, so. So, uh. But I play that back. I learned a heck of a lot, though, and to that point around, how do we. How do we keep the learning in there? That three months I actually learned so much about all the different pieces that it's. It's this. It's. I think it's a real fine, fine balance about how to use it as a tool but not have it overwhelm

Speaker D: and on the talent, I guess, back on the heart. And obviously, you. You are both role models kind of in. You know, in your. In. In the CFO world. Like, what. What are you doing personally to invest in your own development? Like, what excites you about kind of what's next M. You know, kind of how you're evolving yourselves professionally and, um, kind of how you approach in your own personal development.

Alex Gersh: I think for me now it's really about trying to help younger people to achieve what they want to achieve. Right. So, you know, you meet those ambitious people in the organizations, you could see that they want to have more, uh. I get far more satisfaction from seeing their success. Right. Um, I mean, you know, it's hard to develop anything else at this point. You know, you're, uh, you're lucky to get up in the morning from the bed. So, you know, but.

Speaker D: But I.

Alex Gersh: You know, but all kidding aside, it is. It is about making sure that next generation is getting the benefit of our experience and of our mistakes. I completely agree with that. Right.

Carrie Hutchinson: I'm probably a little the same. Um, I'm putting all of my development time into golf at the moment. So. But no, I think that piece around, and somebody once said this to me a couple of years ago, was about what you're calling a gut feeling is actually your experience and listen to it. And I think that's what I'm trying to sort of impart on people is, you know, things that have actually bear traps that I've fallen in myself, trying to stop them from falling in them, or things that I've had the corners knocked off me at an early, early age, trying to do that as well for that person's benefit as much as anything else. Um, and I think, um, the balance, though, for me is sometimes when I go into a role, I want to be the coach rather than the teacher. And I think that for me is quite key about understanding when I'm taking on an assignment. What is the maturity level of your finance team? And it can actually be quite low, even in Businesses that have reached quite sizable turnovers and profitability, particularly if they've done it through bolt ons and acquisitions, is generally they've still got very disparate finance teams or systems and processes that don't line up. And they've got to this stage that from the outside they look pretty mature. And you think, well, they must know what they're doing. You get in and that, whoa, okay, no they don't. And that piece around where you fit best. Now I can do it, but I much prefer getting a team that already knows what they're doing and, and coaching them through. So like in a sports analogy, somebody that can teach you the game is a very different person who would then go on and coach a professional, uh, team or a squad or whatever. And so that's that for me is, is trying to, it's not, not so much about the development of myself anymore, but about using my experiences to fast, fast track people where they've got the heart and the technical capabilities and the, you know, the, and the ambition.

Speaker D: Uh, and when you think about that CFO minus one cohort, um, who are kind of looking up and thinking, where am I going next? So what are the ingredients, I guess to get to that pinnacle CFO role in your view?

Alex Gersh: Well, I think there is a luck that's a big ingredient, right. So not every, you have to be offered the opportunity. And um, the second thing is that you need to be brave to take the opportunity, right? Because not many will be offered. And if you keep refusing them and if you keep thinking, but I'm comfortable here, I like to sit here, it's nice and warm, right? Then you won't, you won't get it. So you have to do, you have to get yourself out, you have to take a risk, but you have to be given the opportunity to take risk. And again, it's about having the heart. It's also about having, you know, emotional intelligence. Right. You're dealing with, whether it's PE guys, they're different personalities, right? Uh, or whether it's, you know, your management and your CEOs and your CFOs and other people in the management. You need to be able to build trust and respect. Right. Uh, again, technical skills are the easiest thing to get. Those, those other things, building trust and respect, it's not as easy. You could be incredibly technically good, but if you don't a good communicator, it's going to be difficult. So I think if you have those kinds of softer skills and you're technically okay, um, and you have the heart and you're lucky. That's all you need.

Speaker D: Yep.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I would say the luck part is there, but the perseverance too. Um, and I think, you know, I've, I've always looked at it as, you know, I don't have the classic background. You know, I've not come through the big four audit partners and have gone in straight from business. And I'm female and all of those things. And I've already identified that I am actually about 20% of the PE CFOs at the most. At the most, yeah. Uh, because I got some stats and it was like, if you're female, there's this, and if you're sema, you're that. And I was like, there's probably only one of me in this then, you know, And I think so. I think there's that other piece about having the resilience that you won't always get the biggest, the best jobs in those, in those positions. And you will see people that you think, how'd they get that job then? You know, and so having the perseverance to keep going on some things, I would say to people where it's not as straightforward. Um, and I think that's another role that I enjoy playing as a, as a, as a female and supporting other females coming through or people from other minorities, um, that have a different background because I think that's the. It's really hard. You know, we know that, um, 2% or something and 1% from different minorities of actually getting funding. Um, and it is that sort of doggedness that goes, no, no, I'm right, I'm right. I'm going to keep going at this, and I will. And then having that emotional intelligence, I think, to, to maneuver around. So I always, particularly on an interim roles, because I go into many different areas, you have to get assimilated pretty quick. So you can't just be yourself every single time. You have to adapt and you have to, to be flexible about it. And knowing the gaps to fill I think is quite key. So really understanding the model pretty quickly and then saying, oh, there's a gap over there, the way that they do it. And I sometimes just disrupt the way they think just because. So if it's very rigid and it's very sort of, you know, you know, we're going to take five minutes, we're going to have four bullet points. What if we just talked for five minutes? We just, you know, you just disrupt the way of thinking. Um, and so finding your niche to a new person coming through is quite, is quite key.

Speaker D: And.

Carrie Hutchinson: But don't be afraid to try something different and don't be afraid to fail, because you will. You really will.

Speaker D: And what, in terms of the enablers say, we'll see. We talked a lot about talent and having people with the right attitude and heart and kind of. But what are the other non. When you take on a new, new CFO role and you're looking at what you've inherited, what are the non negotiables in terms of enablers? You need beyond talent to enable you to do your, uh, role successfully.

Alex Gersh: I think if you have the right people around you, you have to set the right expectations, right? If everybody wants everything tomorrow, then you're going to fail, right? But if you have a plan that people, and people buy into the plan and it needs to be realistic because everything can be done tomorrow. I don't, I don't really think the job is that complicated, Right. The complicated part is the personal relationships that you have to have and the trust that you need to build. The job itself is really. Anybody can learn it, quite honestly. I don't see there is any. I don't think. But you do need, you do need to make sure you set expectations right and, and people understand. And if, you know, I always say this. If, if, when I set the expectations, if that's not what you. It's not. That's not your strategy, then this is probably not the right fit, right? Because I, I don't want to go into something knowing that I can't, that I'm going to fail immediately. Because the minute you start failing, the trust start disappearing, right? The minute you say something and you don't do it and the trust start disappearing. And if you lose the trust, huh? You lost.

Speaker D: And have you got a. Could you maybe give an example of where you've had to, you've had to really change directions, expectations differently, otherwise that would have happened.

Alex Gersh: Well, I think, I think in the, I mean, as, as an example, when we did an IPO of Sport Radar, the initial view was we can do it much, much faster. And when I came in and I assessed it, uh, I took a look at it and I was very honest. I said, look, we need a year to prepare for it. There hasn't been enough of the infrastructure to do that. And it's a NASDAQ ipo. There's a lot of regulatory, uh, you know, complexity involved. So one of the things that you had to do is you have to Set the expectations. Right. Um, that was just one. When we did the merger of Betfair and Patty Power, right. Again, this was a public company. We had to set out expectations. Everybody said, massive synergies, you're going to get out of this business. But again, right, you. What you want to do is you don't want to break what's there. You need to go deliberately. And so the expectation we had to set both for our board, but also for the public markets, where, yes, we're going to get the synergies. Yes, there are significant numbers, but we don't want to lose the revenue and we don't want to drive the business to the ground. I think my. And I. I've talked about him before. My, My, uh, one of my favorite bosses that I had, which was, uh, and his name is Dr. A. Pellet, uh, was the CEO of NDS, which was the company we premier. We. We were NASDAQ listed. Then Pamira took it private, then we sold it to Cisco for $5 billion. He would always say things like, you can't cut your way to prosperity. Right. And it's true. Right. So set the expectations. Yes, there are synergies, but what you want to do is you want to drive the business forward and you want to make sure that you don't break anything. So those are the two times, at least, that I have to. We have to say, not me, but the management team had to set the right expectations and then deliver.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah, yeah, I definitely, in, um, the sort of the second last assignment, and there was an expectation I was actually brought in to do this, was to implement an ERP transformational piece. And with finance and. And actually on my second board, I was like, no, let's stop. And it was quite a big deal for them because it'd been signed off and it'd been in progress for over a year. And I was like, no, I need another three months. I'll come back and I'll look at it in a different way. And in the meantime, we made all these different changes and all these different improvements, and we actually went a different direction after that. But I do remember, um, the investor board, as I said, I don't think this is right. And there was a sharp intake of breath, and it was like, oh, wasn't expecting that. Which, you know, sends a little shiver down your back, but that's what you're there for. You know, you sort of there to be bold and to be brave and to say it as you see it. Um, and we went back and, you know, I reconfigured the team, came back with a different proposal and we went live on the date that we should have done anyway, but in a different. In a different format. So um, that, that's the piece I think is really important is if you see it and it's not quite what you think it should be, is don't get swept along with. Well that's what I've been brought in to do. So you know, um, and, and everybody's saying no, you might still be the right person even if you're the only one that's saying yes.

Host: We've both touched on uh, the topic of M and A, um, and, and both have featured in, in the roles that you've had previously. Um, we were discussing the other day, is it um, in a world where there is a lot of buy and build, a lot of PE buying builds out there, obviously organic growth harder to come by in current times. Um, a theme around actually starting to integrate things much earlier and thinking about that from very early on rather than when it's too late.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah, I'm experiencing the not great planned um option right now. So an acquisition um, that definitely hadn't probably fully thought through. The integrated element of it makes complete sense from the strategic perspective, but the disruption that it's causing uh, uh, as we work through it is really quite challenging the underlying business. So absolutely that piece and your point about actually putting a stop and going, we're not ready to do this. We need a year to get ready. I think that's probably one of the biggest benefits and things that a uh, CFO could do is stopping to get ready. Because getting it wrong can take down a whole business. If you get it wrong or at least delay the synergies that you're expecting to get, uh, I would say that's a really key piece of M and A is actually really considering how does this actually work. And so the role I think in preparation anyway is looking at the finance and the operations and making them easy to swallow. Making a uh, something uh, that is really easy to, to. To. To integrate with, um, or you know, move across. And I always sort of thing if you're getting ready for exit, make it easy to swallow. So you don't want an acquirer looking at going well, you know, I'm going to chip some price because that's, that's a dog's dinner. It's going to cost us a heck of money to start. She get it going. So getting these things all standardized, which is standard practice, but so many people are probably not doing that, but just getting in the basic standards documentation, simple stuff. But if you've not got it, it's like, whoa, this is going to be tough. This is going to be really tough.

Alex Gersh: I agree. I think, and we discussed it before, I think that um, people get excited about growth. PE guys like to buy and build. To a hammer, everything looks like a nail. So you need to make sure that you understand that if you want to drive significant growth, you can't kind of have to think about plumbing. If you think about plumbing after you've made six acquisitions and you sit and go and well, there we go, let's do it. It's going to be much more expensive, it's going to be much more disruptive. Right. Uh, the businesses that do it the most intelligent way, get the first one and integrate. Build a platform to which you can then integrate additional acquisitions. You will get much, much better result. It will be much cheaper. And what's really important, when you do these guys and I've, and I've had, I've lived this a couple times. When you do these kinds of acquisitions and you don't integrate them, you don't have the data, you can't make decisions. Right. Because I got five platforms, they all give me data on a different day of the week. Mhm. Right. I need to wait three months before I get it. All right. How do you make a decision? Right. So it really impacts, it impacts the cost, but it only impacts your, it also impacts your business decision and it certainly impacts your exit if you ever lucky enough to exit.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah, it's probably, I would say it's probably the, the common, uh, but single biggest feeling is not planning the integration on an, on an acquisition well enough.

Host: And why are people not thinking about it early enough?

Carrie Hutchinson: I think potentially there's a bit of vanity in acquisitions or makes complete sense. Um, and also you don't think of, you think of happy path, you think of it's going to be this. You plan it, you plan it, plan it, it's going to work. And actually it's the things that might go wrong that you need to plan for and consider and the contingencies that you have to put in place for that. Um, and that's not really exciting. Nobody really wants to hear what go wrong. They just want to hear what's going to go right. Um, and so that I think is probably it. And you know, and often it's not necessarily driven by the management team themselves, it's driven by your house that's, you know, brought in an acquisition and put it together. And that can also. They're not close enough to the business to understand what actually the implications are. And perhaps the management team are not close enough to the acquisition to be able to say, whoa, hang about. So I think that's the piece. But everybody wants to do them. It's great fun. You know, you bring them together and it's. You've doubled your turnover and all that sort of thing, or you've gone into a new market. So, you know, they don't want to hear that, you know, it might not work.

Alex Gersh: No, it's great fun. It's, uh, it's immediate satisfaction. You know, if you think about it, like when you. When you do your house, uh, if you're renovating your house and you're renovating your bathroom, you spend a lot of time on tiles because they're pretty and they look nice. You don't really think about how your toilet is connected. Right. Because it'll connect. Right. It'll do. And I think that's the problem. You think about what's sexy. Right. And what's sexy is M and A bringing it together. We've signed the contract. We've signed the agreements. Fantastic. We think about the strategy that you will get through those acquisitions. You don't think about the plumbing as much. That's the job of the management and the job of the CFO to start thinking about the plumbing, not to stop the acquisition. We're not a sales prevention organization. Right. Lawyers, uh, sometimes are, but we're not. Uh, but it is true that we do need to, uh. So we want to make sure that the business continues to drive forward. We just need to make sure that somebody, namely us, help drives that plumbing, uh, as we go.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah. And if the CFO is not taking that role, then that's where the real problems lie, because everybody else is thinking of the sexy stuff. And if you've not got a CFO who's just standing in front of the bulldozer a little bit.

Alex Gersh: Still very sexy, but.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah, exactly. Always. That's when I think problems are. When the CFO is not taking that role because nobody else will.

Host: What are you doing when you're. So we're getting presented with opportunities. Now, Alex, fortunately, you were saying he's presented with some, um, Many, many opportunities. When you're evaluating those, obviously we're doing sort of due diligence on, um, M and A targets, etc. But you're doing it on the job that you're taking as well. Um, what's Your advice there for others that are kind of maybe getting that first CFO job and what do they need to do to make sure that they're not sort of stepping into something that is, um, irretrievable?

Carrie Hutchinson: Um, look, I could say all the things about get as much data and model it and do all the things, but really just assume that it's not what you expect it to be. Um, what you're being sold is not always. It really very rarely is how it is. So I do think you try and challenge the questions and really try and pin down what the challenges are. So if I'm looking at an interim assignment, a typical question is, well, what's the problem that you want me to fix? Or what is it that you're trying? How do you see it? Rather than sort of saying, well, this is a role and this is the this and this. What is it that you think you've got that you want help with? Um, because sometimes that is me qualifying myself out, going, well, actually, I don't

Speaker D: think you need me.

Carrie Hutchinson: I think you need one of them. Um, and I've done that a few times. And I would say that's the. That would be the advice to an aspiring CFO is just don't say yes to everything. Don't say, I can do everything you can. But if you're taking yourself way out of your comfort zone, it's going to kill you. And so you want to make sure that the role that you're going for is one that you think, I really want to do that, and I want to be doing those calls on a Saturday night or whatever. You know, that's. That's fine. But understand where it is sort of like the maturity levels, going back to that teaching versus coaching. If this is an organization that needs a heck of a lot of teaching, well, that might be your happy place. You might have gone through really strong technical, sort of financial control, finance director, and you want to do that part to make your first step. You feel comfortable there. But if you're in the commercial space, for example, and you can see that actually, technically they're probably not actually really good on the real basics. On the transactional side, the reporting's a bit off. There's this that might not be for you. So don't oversell yourself. And to your point about, uh, sometimes you get lucky with the first one. It's absolutely spot on. But do try and sniff, test it as much as possible. Is this something that I think I'll enjoy?

Alex Gersh: I would just say, uh, the only thing I would not agree with this. I just. I just say take you out of. Take yourself out of the comfort zone as far as you like. It's not the end of the world if it doesn't work out. Try it. Give it a shot, right? Do what you have to do. Move to a different country if that's what's required. Learning a language, if it's tougher. Sometimes people's English isn't as great. Maybe, you know, but I think you should, you know, when you're young, do those things, right? I mean, I think, take, Take yourself out. But I do think that at the end of the day, even today and, um, certainly 30 years ago and anytime, I would always say to you, what do I look for? First of all, it's the chemistry with the CEO. It's the expansive and optimistic CEOs that I look for. Right? We don't need both to be, you know, hound dog, sitting there barking at the money. One of us needs to be able to think of how to drive and, and really be optimistic about the business and expansive about the business. Look at the management team. Talk to a couple of other people on the management team. See whether the team is collegiate, intelligent, where you can learn from them. That's always very important. And then make sure you have that you understand. You understand the strategy. You buy into a strategy. It's the worst thing you could do is go in the business. Whatever you're trying to do here, I don't agree with. Right. You shouldn't. You should at least understand that strategy from the beginning. What is the company trying to do? And make sure that the investors are supportive. If you could do those things, then I would say go go crazy. Go go out of your comfort zone. Do any of those things, and don't be afraid to fail.

Speaker D: Very good.

Alex Gersh: Um, what.

Speaker D: What do you love most about your role? What excites you the most?

Alex Gersh: I, uh, mean, to me, it's really very, very simple. It's when I can look back and say, there is my contribution. Thirty years of being a cfo, you know, if I don't feel that I've contributed, I don't care how much money I've made, I don't care how many people report, to me, it meaningless, right? You really want to feel like you've made a difference, Right? And it doesn't always work out this way. But if you, if you find those situations and you look at them and look back and you look back at your career, and I think of those, you know, few where I felt like I really made a difference when. And, and that's really the satisfaction. And the other thing is when I think of when I look at some of the younger people that I worked with who are now CFOs themselves or who have, you know, they're on their way and I feel like I've had something to do with their career, something to do with their advice, uh, with advising them on how to do it. I'm certainly not the only one they've had. You know, they have other people they talk to. But when I feel that way, I also, it's, it's a great satisfaction.

Carrie Hutchinson: Yeah, I would just endorse that. I really would. About sort of seeing people that you have worked with and where they are now, I think it's really, really great. Um, and definitely have I done something, um, which is essentially why I made the move to interim. It's much more, I can see I pushed it from here to there. Um, and you know, way back earlier in my career and I was, I was at Diageo, which was a great company, it was much bigger than it is now. Great company to work for. I got lots of training, lots of travel, lots of working with some really fantastic people. But it was really hard to see what I personally had delivered in that week or that month or whatever. And that was ultimately why I moved on, was I wanted to do something that, when I did that or we did that and it was really hard to see. So that's what gives me satisfaction. Yeah.

Speaker D: And, yeah. And if you could, if you could go back to your 20 year old self, what would you say?

Alex Gersh: Have uh, fun, enjoy your life. I mean it, the, the years go fast, quickly, you know, they, they uh, you blink and all of a sudden your children are in their 20s. You know, so I think I look, as I said before, to me what I said and I said, I think last time what I said to my kids, you will be given in life a number of opportunities. It won't be every day your job and it's in personal life, it's professional. After your job is to recognize them and take them. Right. And before you have children and before you have families, you have a lot of freedom to do a lot of things in your life. In my very, very late 20s, I moved to Russia for three years in the 90s, um, and work and we started a company with Motorola and I did three years in St. Petersburg, which is where I was born. But I left when I was 13 and then I came back and I, and I think, you know, A lot of people said, oh, you're going to Russia. It's, you know, everything is changing. You've got all this criminal activity in these cities. Why are you doing that? Right. It was. It transformed my life to a certain extent and it certainly transformed my career because all of a sudden, in the late 20s, I became a CFO for the first time. Normally, that would not happen if I was living in the United States. Right. And from that point on, the career was different. So when you get those opportunities and everybody gets them, you just have to recognize them, not be afraid to take them.

Carrie Hutchinson: It's actually a really tough one, if I'm honest. So at 20, I was absolutely gangbusters. Full of. Full of beans. I could do anything. And actually, it did prove that way for the next sort of 10, 14 years type thing. And then actually something really bad happened and, you know, a personal loss. And it changed and it changed the way I looked at things, the way it changed and looked my career and so on. So I think it's a. The message then would be, yeah, it's going to get tough, but you will bounce back. And that's, I think. So I get the bit about enjoy your life and all that sort of thing. Sometimes things go wrong and you don't enjoy it for a bit. Um, but you can keep going and you can keep doing things. Um, and it's not just about work. Okay. So I get the part about, you know, try and enjoy it, but have other. Have other places that you enjoy as well and you'll be better at work.

Host: Super. Thank you very much.

Carrie Hutchinson: Thank you very much.