"Justin, I built a SaaS!"

1 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:15,505 Justin Jackson: Hello and welcome to Build Your SaaS. This 2 00:00:15,505 --> 00:00:20,065 is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2025. 3 00:00:20,385 --> 00:00:24,065 I'm Justin Jackson, cofounder of transistor.fm. 4 00:00:24,865 --> 00:00:27,745 Harris Kenny: And I'm Harris Kenny, founder of OutboundSync. 5 00:00:27,985 --> 00:00:30,960 Justin Jackson: Yes. Now Harris and I have known each other for 6 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,800 a while. Longtime listener of Build Your SaaS. Right? 7 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:35,680 Harris Kenny: Oh, yeah. 8 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:39,040 Justin Jackson: And I wanted to have Harris on because he sent 9 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:45,045 me an email with the subject line, I did it. I built my SaaS. 10 00:00:46,805 --> 00:00:49,525 And Harris has been sharing his story with me over the years. I 11 00:00:49,525 --> 00:00:54,325 know he's had multiple attempts. And I think what was exciting to 12 00:00:54,325 --> 00:00:58,460 me, Harris, is just this is hard. 13 00:00:58,940 --> 00:01:04,220 Like doing this, building a SaaS, building a software as a 14 00:01:04,220 --> 00:01:08,940 service product, and getting it to profitability is really tough 15 00:01:08,940 --> 00:01:13,815 and usually takes multiple attempts, as we'll hear. So I 16 00:01:13,815 --> 00:01:16,695 wanted to have you on because I think your story will be 17 00:01:16,695 --> 00:01:19,975 encouraging to folks who are in it. 18 00:01:20,055 --> 00:01:22,295 Harris Kenny: Yeah. For sure. Well, I appreciate being on, 19 00:01:22,295 --> 00:01:25,410 man. I mean, yeah, I I listened to the the show for years. And 20 00:01:25,410 --> 00:01:29,250 so and, yeah, I hadn't had a bunch of attempts and always 21 00:01:29,250 --> 00:01:32,290 kind of look up to you from afar. 22 00:01:32,290 --> 00:01:35,250 We almost met in person at Podcast Movement when it was in 23 00:01:35,250 --> 00:01:36,690 Denver, and we we asked Yeah. 24 00:01:36,690 --> 00:01:38,050 Justin Jackson: How did that because I was looking at that 25 00:01:38,050 --> 00:01:40,755 email too, and I was like, so you had emailed me, like, oh, 26 00:01:40,755 --> 00:01:43,395 I'm going to go to podcast movement in Denver, and then we 27 00:01:43,395 --> 00:01:45,715 just never crossed paths. Well, I was only there for a 28 00:01:45,715 --> 00:01:47,875 Harris Kenny: little bit. It was when I was things were really 29 00:01:47,875 --> 00:01:48,915 crazy at that time. 30 00:01:48,915 --> 00:01:49,235 Justin Jackson: Okay. 31 00:01:49,235 --> 00:01:50,675 Harris Kenny: And so I just didn't have a lot of time. So I 32 00:01:50,675 --> 00:01:52,675 was like, hey. I wanna go, and I'm like, I hope I'll catch 33 00:01:52,675 --> 00:01:55,990 Justin. Take out the boots, but if I don't catch him so I just 34 00:01:55,990 --> 00:01:58,470 like it was like, well, what you've talked about for years of 35 00:01:58,470 --> 00:02:01,830 just like no margin. Like, I've just been living a no margin 36 00:02:02,470 --> 00:02:04,870 life for a while. 37 00:02:04,870 --> 00:02:06,870 And so it was one of those situations where like, I was 38 00:02:06,870 --> 00:02:09,455 late and I had to leave early and I I hope I caught you, but 39 00:02:09,455 --> 00:02:11,695 it just didn't it was just too tight. But, like, there's a 40 00:02:11,695 --> 00:02:14,175 future with more margin where you're like, my friend's in 41 00:02:14,175 --> 00:02:16,655 town. I'm gonna go do this thing, and, like, I have time to 42 00:02:16,655 --> 00:02:19,215 do that. And I just, like, haven't haven't had that. 43 00:02:19,295 --> 00:02:21,535 Justin Jackson: Yeah. I mean, I I think that's gonna resonate 44 00:02:21,535 --> 00:02:24,520 with a lot of people. As an aside, this is something I've 45 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,800 been thinking about for a while is you're a part of this Mega 46 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,360 Maker community that I've been running since 02/2013. And I'd 47 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:37,845 like to do some more real life meetups with Mega Maker folks. 48 00:02:37,845 --> 00:02:42,485 And maybe I have to take my son to university in Toronto this 49 00:02:42,485 --> 00:02:42,805 summer. 50 00:02:42,805 --> 00:02:45,365 So I was thinking, oh, maybe we could do a meetup in Toronto. 51 00:02:45,365 --> 00:02:46,805 Where are you based out of, by the way? 52 00:02:46,805 --> 00:02:47,845 Harris Kenny: I'm based in Denver. 53 00:02:47,845 --> 00:02:50,860 Justin Jackson: You're in Denver. Okay. So, yeah, I'm 54 00:02:50,860 --> 00:02:54,460 gonna try to do some, like, on both sides of the continent. 55 00:02:54,940 --> 00:02:59,260 And, yeah, hopefully, we can still hang out Yes. In person. 56 00:02:59,420 --> 00:03:01,020 Harris Kenny: Definitely. I mean, assuming nothing tragic 57 00:03:01,020 --> 00:03:03,915 happens, but I mean, I mean, I'm here, and I would love to. And I 58 00:03:03,995 --> 00:03:07,515 so I joined Mega Maker, but then left. And I I had joined a bunch 59 00:03:07,515 --> 00:03:09,515 of things and left kind of, like, in the early days. 60 00:03:09,515 --> 00:03:11,035 Justin Jackson: Why'd you why did you leave? You just felt 61 00:03:11,035 --> 00:03:14,475 like it was too much. Not what was the reason? 62 00:03:14,475 --> 00:03:16,550 Harris Kenny: So I left, like, everything. It's like I got off 63 00:03:16,550 --> 00:03:20,150 Twitter. I left MicroConf. I left Mega Maker. So I quit my 64 00:03:20,150 --> 00:03:21,190 job in 2019. 65 00:03:21,190 --> 00:03:23,990 Justin Jackson: Yeah. Let's go back to that. Okay. 2019, you 66 00:03:23,990 --> 00:03:24,630 quit your job. 67 00:03:24,630 --> 00:03:27,430 Harris Kenny: Quit my job. I had had a bunch of bosses, and I was 68 00:03:27,830 --> 00:03:29,670 my wife and wife and I were thinking about starting a family 69 00:03:29,670 --> 00:03:34,525 and having kids. And I just like couldn't envision being able to 70 00:03:34,525 --> 00:03:38,045 do the things I would want to do as a husband and dad in these 71 00:03:38,045 --> 00:03:40,765 like work environments I'd had for the previous decade. 72 00:03:40,765 --> 00:03:44,285 Justin Jackson: Just because they were- it was long hours or 73 00:03:44,285 --> 00:03:44,925 stressed or- 74 00:03:44,925 --> 00:03:47,160 Harris Kenny: Just not like a lot of flexibility. It's like, 75 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,320 you know, and like, well, what if I, like, need to go to an 76 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,400 appointment? And the the boss said I'd had at the time was 77 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:55,720 he's like, well, we don't really want you here. It's like, well, 78 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,280 yeah, but, like, I can just, like, do this stuff later on my 79 00:03:58,280 --> 00:03:59,400 computer. Like, it's not 80 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:00,935 Justin Jackson: Yeah. I don't know. 81 00:04:00,935 --> 00:04:02,615 Harris Kenny: I just didn't feel like I would be able to do it 82 00:04:02,615 --> 00:04:04,535 the way I want it to be. You know? 83 00:04:04,535 --> 00:04:07,255 Justin Jackson: I had I had a great like, when I got into tech 84 00:04:07,255 --> 00:04:15,790 in 02/2008, I had a great boss. But even then, I remember there 85 00:04:15,790 --> 00:04:20,830 being some things that graded on me. One was I didn't like other 86 00:04:20,830 --> 00:04:24,350 people looking at my screen while I was working. In 87 00:04:24,350 --> 00:04:30,435 truthfulness, like my day now, if you looked at my screen, you 88 00:04:30,435 --> 00:04:33,235 might not have any idea of what I'm doing. You know what? 89 00:04:33,235 --> 00:04:36,035 Like, it could look like I'm wasting my time. It could look 90 00:04:36,035 --> 00:04:40,195 like I'm just sitting there thinking. A lot of my time these 91 00:04:40,195 --> 00:04:44,860 days is spent thinking. And I so I didn't like people looking at 92 00:04:44,860 --> 00:04:49,180 my screen. And my joke back then was if I kept Excel open on my 93 00:04:49,180 --> 00:04:51,900 screen all day, people would assume that I'm working and 94 00:04:51,900 --> 00:04:54,700 productive, but I could be doing absolutely nothing. 95 00:04:54,700 --> 00:05:00,675 Right? Yeah. And then the second thing was I just it felt so not 96 00:05:00,675 --> 00:05:06,915 humiliating, but to ask for time off always felt like this, like 97 00:05:06,915 --> 00:05:10,675 I had to prostrate myself in front of like, can I please have 98 00:05:10,675 --> 00:05:13,610 some time off? And it just always felt like, why do I have 99 00:05:13,610 --> 00:05:17,690 to ask for permission? I wanna be in a position where I don't 100 00:05:17,690 --> 00:05:21,690 have to ask for permission to, you know, take some time off or 101 00:05:21,690 --> 00:05:22,090 whatever. 102 00:05:22,090 --> 00:05:22,650 Yeah. Well, do 103 00:05:22,650 --> 00:05:24,330 Harris Kenny: you remember Shawshank Redemption? You ever 104 00:05:24,330 --> 00:05:43,000 see that movie? Mhmm. You just, like, reminds me of that. And, 105 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,800 yeah, I mean, I I felt like it just felt arbitrary. 106 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,840 I mean, I was in a role where I was at that in that in that 107 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:52,120 position, performance based. Part part of it was, like, 108 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,280 commission or performance kicker based on the team meeting its 109 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:58,005 sales goals, but nobody else was. Yeah. So, like, I would 110 00:05:58,005 --> 00:05:59,285 need things. I would be like, hey. 111 00:05:59,285 --> 00:06:03,365 Like, could we get this could I get like, I just did a case 112 00:06:03,365 --> 00:06:06,245 study with a customer. Can I have can I put it on the website 113 00:06:06,245 --> 00:06:09,125 somewhere? And the web team's like, yeah. We don't have, like, 114 00:06:09,125 --> 00:06:10,405 time for that. I'm like, okay. 115 00:06:10,405 --> 00:06:12,030 Well, I need to be able 116 00:06:12,030 --> 00:06:12,510 Justin Jackson: to share 117 00:06:12,510 --> 00:06:16,110 Harris Kenny: it with people. So then like I ended up putting it 118 00:06:16,110 --> 00:06:20,510 up like on GitHub or something. And then linked the GitHub thing 119 00:06:20,510 --> 00:06:23,950 from the support center because the support team wasn't willing 120 00:06:23,950 --> 00:06:27,175 to let me put it there. And it was like, why is this so hard? 121 00:06:27,175 --> 00:06:27,415 Yeah. 122 00:06:27,415 --> 00:06:29,895 And it was like, hey, I want data about who we've sold to. 123 00:06:29,895 --> 00:06:32,055 And they were like, yeah, our system doesn't really like, it's 124 00:06:32,055 --> 00:06:35,255 in there, but there's no UI. So I, like, I had done a little bit 125 00:06:35,255 --> 00:06:37,495 of SQL and database stuff in business school. So anyway, so I 126 00:06:37,495 --> 00:06:40,215 was just downloaded, like, dBeaver, and I was doing my own 127 00:06:40,215 --> 00:06:42,980 SQL queries, doing all of this stuff when it's like This 128 00:06:42,980 --> 00:06:45,940 Justin Jackson: is definitely the DNA of a entrepreneur. I I 129 00:06:45,940 --> 00:06:51,700 think like there's that feeling of it's not truly oppressive, 130 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:53,955 but there's these corporate structures that can just feel 131 00:06:53,955 --> 00:06:58,115 like they're gating you in. And if you're a fast horse and you 132 00:06:58,115 --> 00:07:01,875 just want to run, this feeling of being gated in is such a 133 00:07:01,875 --> 00:07:08,620 frustrating feeling. Like, and good companies and good teams, I 134 00:07:08,620 --> 00:07:12,220 think, will reward that behavior, that kind of taking 135 00:07:12,220 --> 00:07:17,100 initiative. And I'm going to make sure this happens, or 136 00:07:17,100 --> 00:07:19,980 here's a great suggestion, or like, let's do this. 137 00:07:20,925 --> 00:07:26,365 And I think kind of old oppressive teams will they they 138 00:07:26,365 --> 00:07:31,405 they just kind of suffocate or suppress you or make it harder 139 00:07:31,565 --> 00:07:33,805 for you to contribute in a meaningful way. 140 00:07:33,805 --> 00:07:36,620 Harris Kenny: That's how I felt. Yeah. Like, I think that, like, 141 00:07:36,620 --> 00:07:39,900 the company was well run and profitable and doing well. And 142 00:07:39,900 --> 00:07:43,340 so I was like, this is probably a me thing, but I was like, 143 00:07:43,340 --> 00:07:46,860 look, I've had like a few jobs at this point. Like, at at some 144 00:07:46,860 --> 00:07:50,515 point, maybe I'm the problem here, and, like, maybe I need to 145 00:07:50,515 --> 00:07:51,555 do the different thing. 146 00:07:51,555 --> 00:07:53,955 Because it's like nothing that they were doing there was, like, 147 00:07:53,955 --> 00:07:56,755 obviously on its face. Like, how could you? How dare you? You 148 00:07:56,755 --> 00:07:59,395 know? It it was just, like, it like, grading. 149 00:08:00,115 --> 00:08:03,280 It just felt like suffocating. But it's like but it made sense. 150 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,600 Like, yeah, this isn't the web team's problem. It's not that 151 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,600 big of a deal. Like, sorry, it's not a priority. 152 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:08,080 But anyway 153 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,240 Justin Jackson: Oh, yeah. I think this is the I think this 154 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:18,135 is the realization is it's if you're a fast horse and you want 155 00:08:18,135 --> 00:08:22,775 to run, there's just some structures that aren't going to 156 00:08:22,775 --> 00:08:29,550 be work for you. And that's fine. Like, if if the boss or 157 00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:34,030 the team or the culture or the business model or the market 158 00:08:34,430 --> 00:08:38,030 just necessitates something else, like if you really want a 159 00:08:38,030 --> 00:08:44,555 remote job, but the company is really a on prem culture and, 160 00:08:44,555 --> 00:08:47,995 you know, you need to be there. Well, you're just not the right 161 00:08:47,995 --> 00:08:49,435 fit for that place. 162 00:08:49,835 --> 00:08:55,990 And I think what drives a lot of founders is that feeling of, you 163 00:08:55,990 --> 00:08:58,710 know what? I'm never going to be really I mean, we're never 164 00:08:58,710 --> 00:09:02,470 really satisfied at all, but I'm never going to like really be 165 00:09:02,870 --> 00:09:08,665 kind of in my zone of genius until I'm able to be doing this 166 00:09:08,665 --> 00:09:13,945 on my own. Like Yeah. Nothing will satisfy this itch until I'm 167 00:09:13,945 --> 00:09:18,505 in charge and I'm calling the shots and I'm it's all reliant 168 00:09:18,505 --> 00:09:19,065 on me, 169 00:09:19,065 --> 00:09:22,105 Harris Kenny: but That's what I was that's that's definitely it. 170 00:09:22,105 --> 00:09:28,800 Right? So I was like, okay. I said if I can get a project for 171 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,520 50% of my income so at the time, we had we had, like, had our 172 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:34,720 first house. Yeah. 173 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,945 We had our first mortgage, but that was like so I didn't need a 174 00:09:38,945 --> 00:09:42,385 a w two to get approved for the mortgage. 175 00:09:42,385 --> 00:09:45,665 Justin Jackson: Yeah. A check. Yeah. Always get your get your 176 00:09:45,665 --> 00:09:47,585 mortgage before you quit your job. 177 00:09:47,825 --> 00:09:49,905 Harris Kenny: Definitely. Because you can always drive 178 00:09:49,905 --> 00:09:52,300 Uber, but they're not gonna approve you if you're driving 179 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:54,300 Uber. But, you know, there's like a difference between 180 00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:56,060 showing you make money and actually being able to make the 181 00:09:56,060 --> 00:09:57,020 money. Right? Yeah. 182 00:09:57,020 --> 00:10:00,380 I was like, okay. We we had the house. My wife was finishing her 183 00:10:00,380 --> 00:10:06,505 PhD and which was like itself a long journey. And I was 184 00:10:06,505 --> 00:10:09,705 supporting throughout, which happy to do, like, more than 185 00:10:09,705 --> 00:10:11,945 happy to do, but but just like kind of the financial realities 186 00:10:11,945 --> 00:10:13,625 of the situation. And we hadn't had kids yet. 187 00:10:13,625 --> 00:10:17,610 So it felt like, okay, this is the window. Yeah. If I can get 188 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:21,050 half of my current pay in contracts or projects, I will 189 00:10:21,050 --> 00:10:25,450 quit my job. Mhmm. And I had built up a pretty good network 190 00:10:25,450 --> 00:10:27,050 from my previous jobs. 191 00:10:27,770 --> 00:10:33,325 We I helped scale a three d printer company from 2014 to 192 00:10:33,325 --> 00:10:37,645 2019. We'd gone from 1.7 to $20,000,000 in revenue as like a 193 00:10:37,645 --> 00:10:42,380 hardware It was really hard. But I learned a lot and I met a lot 194 00:10:42,380 --> 00:10:44,620 of people because it's a really high visibility thing. Mhmm. So 195 00:10:44,620 --> 00:10:46,940 anyway, that's a whole other story for another day. 196 00:10:46,940 --> 00:10:51,180 But I had this other job in the meantime and worked my network. 197 00:10:51,260 --> 00:10:54,205 I got I got I got my commitments basically. I incorporated on 198 00:10:54,205 --> 00:10:57,245 04/01/2019. I got my commitments. I quit my job May 199 00:10:57,245 --> 00:10:57,485 1. 200 00:10:57,485 --> 00:10:59,165 Justin Jackson: And these were commitments for projects? Like, 201 00:10:59,165 --> 00:10:59,725 these were clients? 202 00:10:59,885 --> 00:11:02,285 Harris Kenny: Market client consulting. Like, let me help 203 00:11:02,285 --> 00:11:03,245 you with your sales. 204 00:11:03,245 --> 00:11:05,885 Justin Jackson: Okay. So you emailed a bunch of people, said, 205 00:11:05,885 --> 00:11:09,470 hey. I'm looking to make the jump. I need some clients. Will 206 00:11:09,470 --> 00:11:10,430 you be my client? 207 00:11:10,990 --> 00:11:14,030 And you got commitments from enough of them that you felt 208 00:11:14,030 --> 00:11:16,990 like, okay, I could and what did those commitments look like? 209 00:11:16,990 --> 00:11:20,270 Like, there was just a pipeline of work? Like, had six months of 210 00:11:20,270 --> 00:11:20,670 work? Or 211 00:11:20,830 --> 00:11:23,310 Harris Kenny: Let's do it. Like, signed, closed, contract signed. 212 00:11:23,635 --> 00:11:26,435 We're gonna start next week. So I was like, okay. I'll I'll work 213 00:11:26,435 --> 00:11:27,075 weird hours. 214 00:11:27,075 --> 00:11:30,595 I'll make this work until I can get to 50%. Got it. So So I 215 00:11:30,595 --> 00:11:32,755 waited till people, like, were like, okay. We're going. We'll 216 00:11:32,755 --> 00:11:33,635 pay you kind of thing. 217 00:11:33,635 --> 00:11:35,635 Justin Jackson: And did you have a goal in mind? Like, I need to 218 00:11:35,635 --> 00:11:38,830 get this number of people on retainer? Or It was just half 219 00:11:38,830 --> 00:11:40,670 Harris Kenny: of my income. I forget exactly what my income 220 00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:43,070 was at the time. Yeah. But it was just half. I figured if I 221 00:11:43,070 --> 00:11:45,390 could get to half, then I could get the other half is what is 222 00:11:45,390 --> 00:11:47,070 what my guess was. 223 00:11:47,390 --> 00:11:50,590 So I saw one contract. Basically, one contract was 224 00:11:50,590 --> 00:11:52,695 enough, but there was only a two month contract. So I was like, 225 00:11:52,695 --> 00:11:55,255 okay. I've got two months of half my income. Yeah. 226 00:11:55,255 --> 00:11:59,495 Let's go. So I quit my job and I figured once I quit, I would and 227 00:11:59,495 --> 00:12:02,775 I talked to some other kind of mentor type people at the time. 228 00:12:03,015 --> 00:12:05,575 And I felt like once I quit, I'm gonna unlock forty hours a week 229 00:12:05,575 --> 00:12:08,210 of time. Yeah. And so, like, I'll be able to do way, way more 230 00:12:08,210 --> 00:12:09,090 with that time. 231 00:12:09,090 --> 00:12:13,170 So and that was right. By the June or by the May, by the time 232 00:12:13,170 --> 00:12:15,970 I got to June, so I was I was back to my old income within a 233 00:12:15,970 --> 00:12:16,290 month. 234 00:12:16,290 --> 00:12:17,010 Justin Jackson: Oh, wow. 235 00:12:17,010 --> 00:12:19,685 Harris Kenny: Yeah. So it was like, oh, okay. Okay. And and 236 00:12:19,685 --> 00:12:22,405 and it was just me in my house with one laptop. So it was like 237 00:12:22,405 --> 00:12:24,565 all profit margin with no expenses. 238 00:12:24,565 --> 00:12:25,845 And so it was a really good start. 239 00:12:25,845 --> 00:12:30,085 Justin Jackson: Yeah. But that drive, some people quit their 240 00:12:30,085 --> 00:12:34,750 job. They have all this extra time and they find it's actually 241 00:12:34,750 --> 00:12:38,430 the opposite. Without somebody driving them, without somebody 242 00:12:38,430 --> 00:12:44,910 pushing them, they don't have that relentlessness you need to 243 00:12:44,910 --> 00:12:47,115 go out and find clients. 244 00:12:47,275 --> 00:12:47,675 Harris Kenny: Yeah. 245 00:12:47,675 --> 00:12:52,155 Justin Jackson: And I think that's a good litmus test. It's 246 00:12:52,155 --> 00:12:56,475 like once you have the time, do you have the drive? Like after 247 00:12:56,475 --> 00:13:00,955 I'd quit my job, there was times where, for example, course sales 248 00:13:00,955 --> 00:13:04,770 were like enough. And I was like, I got to go build some 249 00:13:04,770 --> 00:13:10,770 WordPress websites for people. And it's just this like dogged, 250 00:13:11,970 --> 00:13:15,490 relentless drive to say, I'm gonna do whatever it takes. 251 00:13:15,490 --> 00:13:21,165 I'm gonna email 100 people until I sell, you know, 10 website 252 00:13:21,165 --> 00:13:24,285 contracts and I'm going to build them all and then, you know, 253 00:13:24,285 --> 00:13:25,645 live to see another day. 254 00:13:25,725 --> 00:13:29,645 Harris Kenny: Yeah. I think the anticipation of like, that we 255 00:13:29,645 --> 00:13:33,030 would be starting our family, I mean, like, within a year or so, 256 00:13:33,030 --> 00:13:35,270 our daughter was born. And so I think that was like I had this 257 00:13:35,270 --> 00:13:38,070 in my head of like, I've gotta I gotta kinda get this thing off 258 00:13:38,070 --> 00:13:42,070 the ground because things are so that to me was a big motive. I 259 00:13:42,070 --> 00:13:44,310 can't like I can't disentangle that. 260 00:13:44,310 --> 00:13:46,550 Justin Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Dependence is a huge that's 261 00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:52,195 true, actually. Like, before I had kids, I didn't have that 262 00:13:52,195 --> 00:13:59,555 same drive that I did after once I realized, wow. This is this is 263 00:13:59,555 --> 00:14:00,355 expensive. 264 00:14:00,355 --> 00:14:02,800 Harris Kenny: This is just like Just keeps going up. 265 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,360 Justin Jackson: Yeah. And expensive in a sense, like, it's 266 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,080 expensive with your time, your energy, but your money. It's 267 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:13,200 just like you can't just live in a one bedroom condo anymore. 268 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,785 You've gotta you've gotta get more space. You gotta get a car. 269 00:14:15,785 --> 00:14:16,745 You gotta get a car seat. 270 00:14:16,745 --> 00:14:18,825 Harris Kenny: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Totally. Yeah. There's just hard 271 00:14:18,825 --> 00:14:21,065 hard cash flow hits that come with that. 272 00:14:21,065 --> 00:14:25,865 Justin Jackson: Yeah. So so 2019, you you launched this, you 273 00:14:25,865 --> 00:14:31,680 get some clients. COVID hit in 2020. So Yeah. What what did 274 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:32,800 that affect you at all or 275 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,520 Harris Kenny: what Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So terrible timing. 276 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:40,400 Just couldn't have really couldn't have done it worse in a 277 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:41,120 lot of ways. 278 00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:43,815 Justin Jackson: What? Because it it affected it poorly? Was just 279 00:14:43,815 --> 00:14:44,775 so stressful 280 00:14:44,855 --> 00:14:48,935 Harris Kenny: and that we were expecting at the time. So every 281 00:14:48,935 --> 00:14:51,735 time I got to the mean, in the beginning it was really unknown. 282 00:14:51,735 --> 00:14:54,215 Then especially because we were expecting during that time, it 283 00:14:54,215 --> 00:15:00,180 was really anxiety inducing. And I think the biggest thing I 284 00:15:00,180 --> 00:15:04,100 realized was like, what if I get sick? So I had these clients and 285 00:15:04,100 --> 00:15:06,100 it's going well, but like, they're just really paying me to 286 00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:08,180 talk to them about stuff. 287 00:15:08,625 --> 00:15:10,785 Yeah. And like, we're getting some results definitely, but 288 00:15:10,785 --> 00:15:13,665 like a lot of this business is just like, I've been doing this 289 00:15:13,665 --> 00:15:16,065 and I was working with a lot of hardware companies at the time. 290 00:15:16,065 --> 00:15:19,025 Mhmm. And so I just had a lot of like offhand things of like, oh, 291 00:15:19,025 --> 00:15:20,785 well, you should talk to this distributor. They would like 292 00:15:20,785 --> 00:15:21,665 totally pick that up. 293 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,600 And like, I knew that because I had been doing it for seven or 294 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,280 six years. So that was like worth it for them. But I was 295 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,080 like, what if I get sick and I can't take that call? Like, are 296 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:32,600 you going keep paying me? Probably not. 297 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,440 So it felt very fragile. And so this is when I started 298 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,555 discovering and I joined I forget the exact date, but like 299 00:15:39,555 --> 00:15:43,555 I joined MegaMaker and I started listening to Build Your SaaS and 300 00:15:43,555 --> 00:15:45,795 Startups for the Rest of Us, I joined MicroConf. 301 00:15:45,795 --> 00:15:47,715 Justin Jackson: Were you familiar with software as a 302 00:15:47,715 --> 00:15:52,170 service or web apps? Like, was that you came from like a a 303 00:15:52,170 --> 00:15:53,930 world where you're selling hardware? 304 00:15:54,090 --> 00:15:56,570 Harris Kenny: Yeah. I was I didn't have software background. 305 00:15:56,570 --> 00:16:00,410 I mean, I had done like ERP consulting in 2013 as a as an 306 00:16:00,410 --> 00:16:03,050 account executive. I mean, so no. I mean, I mean, I'd never 307 00:16:03,050 --> 00:16:05,735 worked for a SaaS company at all. 308 00:16:05,735 --> 00:16:07,895 I never worked for a company that had a dollar in SaaS 309 00:16:07,895 --> 00:16:08,375 revenue. 310 00:16:08,375 --> 00:16:10,615 Justin Jackson: How did it even come on your radar? Like how did 311 00:16:10,615 --> 00:16:12,215 you I found 312 00:16:12,215 --> 00:16:15,255 Harris Kenny: Rob Walling's stuff first and that tipped me 313 00:16:15,255 --> 00:16:18,135 off in SaaS and then I found Build Your SaaS and Transistor. 314 00:16:18,135 --> 00:16:18,615 Justin Jackson: Okay. 315 00:16:18,615 --> 00:16:21,310 Harris Kenny: And then it just kind of like, was like, because 316 00:16:21,390 --> 00:16:24,270 what I wanted was like to take care of my family and to build 317 00:16:24,030 --> 00:16:27,230 good business. So then it's like, what kind of business? And 318 00:16:27,230 --> 00:16:31,390 so because of like the pressures of COVID and family and like, 319 00:16:31,390 --> 00:16:34,385 I'm in my late thirties right now. And so, and I'd like 320 00:16:34,385 --> 00:16:36,785 finished business school. I like, I had, I think, very 321 00:16:36,785 --> 00:16:41,185 compressed learning cycles of like very quickly, like, this is 322 00:16:41,185 --> 00:16:41,665 a good idea. 323 00:16:41,665 --> 00:16:45,180 Let's go. Okay. But it can be better. Just like, I didn't it 324 00:16:45,340 --> 00:16:47,420 it's taken a long time to get here, but within this, there's 325 00:16:47,420 --> 00:16:50,860 been, like, really tight learning loops. And then it was 326 00:16:50,860 --> 00:16:52,300 like, oh, like, this is it. 327 00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:54,380 Like, I went out to work on my own because I want my own 328 00:16:54,380 --> 00:16:56,860 business because I wanna be present as a dad and brought my 329 00:16:56,860 --> 00:17:00,060 family. And, like, this is the best way to do it. It is a SaaS. 330 00:17:00,060 --> 00:17:02,755 I need to figure out how to have a SaaS somehow. 331 00:17:02,755 --> 00:17:04,755 Justin Jackson: Mean, doesn't seem that long in my if you 332 00:17:04,755 --> 00:17:06,115 think about it, it's been six years. 333 00:17:06,195 --> 00:17:06,835 Harris Kenny: So Yeah. 334 00:17:06,835 --> 00:17:10,435 Justin Jackson: It it's been six five or six years since you even 335 00:17:10,435 --> 00:17:15,570 kind of realized what the SaaS market industry category, how it 336 00:17:15,570 --> 00:17:17,650 works. So that's pretty compressed. 337 00:17:18,050 --> 00:17:20,770 Harris Kenny: Yeah. I mean, I guess in hindsight, yeah. Yeah. 338 00:17:20,770 --> 00:17:25,570 It feels like a long time. It feels like a long time. 339 00:17:25,650 --> 00:17:29,195 But, I mean, once we once when once once the my actual idea 340 00:17:29,195 --> 00:17:33,195 hit, it was like it it took off really quickly. So it was a lot 341 00:17:33,195 --> 00:17:36,075 of tight, hard learning and then but but like having to maintain 342 00:17:36,075 --> 00:17:38,795 cash flow the whole time. There was no like, oh, I'm gonna go on 343 00:17:38,795 --> 00:17:41,740 the sabbatical and think about it. It was like, I'm staying up 344 00:17:41,740 --> 00:17:44,300 late to try to figure out how to do this thing because during the 345 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:45,980 day, I'm on client calls and stuff. 346 00:17:46,060 --> 00:17:48,860 Justin Jackson: I think what's interesting is that pull that 347 00:17:48,860 --> 00:17:54,395 you just described, I think is quite common for people 348 00:17:54,395 --> 00:17:56,955 investigating, especially this space, because that was always 349 00:17:56,955 --> 00:18:01,995 the promise is like, okay, what do I desire? Well, I don't want 350 00:18:01,995 --> 00:18:06,315 to work a job. I then you try consulting and you're like, 351 00:18:06,315 --> 00:18:10,290 okay, consulting works, but you have to keep this thing every 352 00:18:10,770 --> 00:18:13,970 sales cycle is you're starting from zero again. I mean, it's 353 00:18:13,970 --> 00:18:16,770 not really zero, but it's like it can feel like that. 354 00:18:16,770 --> 00:18:19,090 Harris Kenny: Oh, no. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, 355 00:18:19,090 --> 00:18:19,650 basically is. 356 00:18:19,650 --> 00:18:22,345 Unless you start developing IP and, you know. 357 00:18:22,345 --> 00:18:24,025 Justin Jackson: Yeah. I mean, I guess the the reason I say it's 358 00:18:24,025 --> 00:18:26,585 not always from zero because you still have your network. Like, 359 00:18:26,585 --> 00:18:29,145 you still have former clients you can go back to and say, hey, 360 00:18:29,145 --> 00:18:33,465 let's do another engagement or whatever. But it can feel like 361 00:18:33,625 --> 00:18:36,140 you're always starting from zero. And then there's the 362 00:18:36,140 --> 00:18:39,260 stress of that and like delivering projects on time and, 363 00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:43,020 you know, and like even like having to wake up early. 364 00:18:43,020 --> 00:18:47,500 I had to wake up early and do calls with people in Sweden. So 365 00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:49,980 it was like I had to wake up at 4AM or something. I was like, 366 00:18:50,925 --> 00:18:55,965 this is tough. And so then you search for, okay, what are some 367 00:18:55,965 --> 00:18:58,765 of other options? And you're like, oh, recurring revenue. 368 00:18:58,765 --> 00:19:02,605 Like, if I could just have, you know, instead of having to 369 00:19:02,845 --> 00:19:06,350 rebuild it every sales cycle every month or every quarter, I 370 00:19:06,510 --> 00:19:09,870 just every month, new stuff can come in. Mhmm. And then you go 371 00:19:09,870 --> 00:19:12,590 look for solutions, and it's like, oh, I I could build a SaaS 372 00:19:12,590 --> 00:19:13,230 business. 373 00:19:13,390 --> 00:19:16,430 Harris Kenny: Mhmm. Exactly. So that's that's how I kinda land 374 00:19:16,430 --> 00:19:18,510 on it. But then I'm like, okay. I gotta learn about SaaS. 375 00:19:18,605 --> 00:19:21,645 So I join all these things. And I'm, like, super active on 376 00:19:21,645 --> 00:19:25,565 Twitter at the time just, like, absorbing, absorbing, absorbing. 377 00:19:25,565 --> 00:19:29,725 Mhmm. And I feel like I was just in, like, just downloading, just 378 00:19:29,725 --> 00:19:32,370 constantly downloading little things and thinking about 379 00:19:32,370 --> 00:19:34,930 thinking about surfing and, you know, all these all these 380 00:19:34,930 --> 00:19:40,130 analogies and the stair step method and dah dah dah dah. But 381 00:19:40,130 --> 00:19:44,295 I think, like, in general, what I was feeling was like, Okay, 382 00:19:44,295 --> 00:19:45,815 this is like too much learning. 383 00:19:46,295 --> 00:19:51,655 I need to be like doing now. I need to like start like testing 384 00:19:51,655 --> 00:19:55,095 ideas. I'm like, where is this idea going to come from? How can 385 00:19:55,095 --> 00:19:58,220 I turn this consulting business into maybe something that's like 386 00:19:58,220 --> 00:20:00,700 a little bit more of an engine so I can free up, make more 387 00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:03,340 money or just free up a little bit more time? Mhmm. 388 00:20:03,340 --> 00:20:05,900 So it kind of converted into a little bit more of an agency. 389 00:20:07,020 --> 00:20:10,460 Because at the time, like email deliverability started to 390 00:20:10,460 --> 00:20:12,745 started to become like a little bit of an issue discussed in 391 00:20:12,745 --> 00:20:15,705 some of these corners of the web. Most of my clients, they 392 00:20:15,705 --> 00:20:17,785 didn't they wanted to talk to me, but if they were really 393 00:20:17,785 --> 00:20:21,545 hard, like, and clear, they would say, well, I want leads. 394 00:20:21,545 --> 00:20:25,145 Yeah. Like, like, I'm talking to you and I like your advice and 395 00:20:25,145 --> 00:20:26,905 there's some really good ideas in here, but like, ultimately, 396 00:20:26,905 --> 00:20:27,385 what do we need? 397 00:20:27,385 --> 00:20:29,250 We need new leads for our business. And like, can you get 398 00:20:29,250 --> 00:20:33,810 us leads? And I had never done that before. The companies I'd 399 00:20:33,810 --> 00:20:35,970 work with, in hardware, it's different. The go to market is 400 00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:36,690 really different. 401 00:20:36,850 --> 00:20:38,930 And so I just started learning cold email. I bought a cold 402 00:20:38,930 --> 00:20:42,895 email course for like a $100 on Twitter. And so I started 403 00:20:42,895 --> 00:20:45,295 learning cold email and started building an agency around 404 00:20:45,455 --> 00:20:49,135 outreach Yeah. As, an extension of this consulting service. And 405 00:20:49,135 --> 00:20:51,375 so then I started getting really deep in that into that world, 406 00:20:52,015 --> 00:20:54,095 and we became a HubSpot solutions partner. 407 00:20:54,095 --> 00:20:58,610 We were doing outbound. And then then I like, the the landscape 408 00:20:58,610 --> 00:21:02,210 started to, like, sort of emerge of, okay. These are the tools 409 00:21:02,210 --> 00:21:04,850 I'm using. These are gaps between these tools. This is how 410 00:21:04,850 --> 00:21:05,650 they charge. 411 00:21:05,650 --> 00:21:08,785 Mhmm. This is, like, what's annoying. And then within that, 412 00:21:08,785 --> 00:21:11,265 I had had like a few different ideas. But so I left the 413 00:21:11,265 --> 00:21:13,505 communities and stuff, not because I didn't like them, but 414 00:21:13,505 --> 00:21:17,745 because it was like, what I need next is not here. Yeah. 415 00:21:17,745 --> 00:21:20,460 What I need next is out somewhere in the market and 416 00:21:20,460 --> 00:21:23,340 nobody here is going to be the one who's going to be my first 417 00:21:23,340 --> 00:21:26,860 customer or and so and so I only have so many and at this point, 418 00:21:26,860 --> 00:21:29,180 my daughter was born. I was just like, okay. I don't have that 419 00:21:29,180 --> 00:21:31,340 much time, so I gotta go. And so I, like, I literally deleted 420 00:21:31,340 --> 00:21:33,180 Twitter. I literally left, like, everything. 421 00:21:33,555 --> 00:21:37,075 I just started spending, like, all this time on LinkedIn and 422 00:21:37,075 --> 00:21:40,995 and and to to kind of like so that was kind of that, like, 423 00:21:40,995 --> 00:21:43,635 that, like, transition period in the beginning of what was, 424 00:21:43,635 --> 00:21:44,595 testing ideas. 425 00:21:45,235 --> 00:21:49,790 Justin Jackson: This is so key. Like, there's a you're gonna 426 00:21:49,790 --> 00:21:55,550 need some foundation of knowledge. But after you've got 427 00:21:55,550 --> 00:22:01,550 a reasonable foundation, you need to go out and do stuff. You 428 00:22:01,550 --> 00:22:07,095 need to go out and start building things. And I felt this 429 00:22:07,095 --> 00:22:11,895 like I started the Product People podcast in 02/2012. 430 00:22:13,015 --> 00:22:18,540 And, you know, after a year of doing these interviews, I felt 431 00:22:18,540 --> 00:22:22,540 like I gotta stop doing these interviews, and I've gotta do 432 00:22:22,540 --> 00:22:27,340 something. Like, I gotta launch something exactly the same as 433 00:22:27,340 --> 00:22:32,725 you. Like, this is until I start putting this into practice and 434 00:22:32,725 --> 00:22:36,485 really feeling it, it's just like anything. It's like I can 435 00:22:36,485 --> 00:22:41,285 describe to you the mechanics of snowboarding, but until I get 436 00:22:41,285 --> 00:22:45,830 you out on the hill and you start to actually try it out, it 437 00:22:46,070 --> 00:22:49,590 the head knowledge is fine, like, for you to have the 438 00:22:49,590 --> 00:22:53,990 basics, but you need to start, you know, you need to just start 439 00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:54,870 going down the hill 440 00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:56,630 Harris Kenny: at some point. Exactly. You gotta land on your 441 00:22:56,630 --> 00:22:57,830 butt and be like, okay. 442 00:22:57,830 --> 00:22:58,310 Justin Jackson: Yeah. 443 00:22:58,310 --> 00:22:58,790 Harris Kenny: That was fine. 444 00:22:59,345 --> 00:23:01,825 Justin Jackson: So that's I I think that's great that you had 445 00:23:01,825 --> 00:23:04,625 that self knowledge probably driven by the fact that you 446 00:23:04,625 --> 00:23:05,905 didn't have very much time. 447 00:23:06,145 --> 00:23:08,545 Harris Kenny: That was it. It was like, oh, man. And it it was 448 00:23:08,545 --> 00:23:10,945 kind of like a little sad because it was like, oh, like, 449 00:23:10,945 --> 00:23:13,570 is fun. Like, I like talking to these people. Like, this is 450 00:23:13,570 --> 00:23:13,890 funny. 451 00:23:13,890 --> 00:23:17,090 This is my community. I'm home alone. Yeah. I have no real 452 00:23:17,090 --> 00:23:21,410 coworkers. I like, all my friends have jobs, and then we 453 00:23:21,410 --> 00:23:23,810 have a young kid, and so I don't have a lot of time in general. 454 00:23:23,810 --> 00:23:27,235 Like Mhmm. When I'm not working, I'm trying to be a dad as best I 455 00:23:27,235 --> 00:23:31,795 can and trying to be a husband. And so so it was like a little 456 00:23:31,795 --> 00:23:35,635 sad, honestly, but it but I just didn't feel like I had a like 457 00:23:35,635 --> 00:23:38,690 all of these things, felt like I didn't have a really good 458 00:23:38,690 --> 00:23:41,570 alternative. It just felt like I got to do this. If I want to 459 00:23:41,570 --> 00:23:45,010 move forward, I have to make some changes here and it's going 460 00:23:45,010 --> 00:23:48,690 to be, you know, a little uncomfortable, but it's I just 461 00:23:48,690 --> 00:23:49,730 don't what's the alternative? 462 00:23:50,095 --> 00:23:52,735 Justin Jackson: Yeah. Okay. So you get this agency going. 463 00:23:52,895 --> 00:23:56,175 Agency's going. And it's working or what what happened? 464 00:23:56,255 --> 00:23:58,015 Harris Kenny: Like, it's working. It's working. I'm 465 00:23:58,015 --> 00:24:01,295 acquiring customers. Like, I'm starting to, like, feel what 466 00:24:01,295 --> 00:24:04,670 it's like to get on a wave a little bit. Mhmm. 467 00:24:04,670 --> 00:24:06,990 Because with my consulting, like, I had this feeling of 468 00:24:06,990 --> 00:24:09,310 like, yeah, I've got these relationships, but like, I don't 469 00:24:09,310 --> 00:24:12,830 have that many relationships. Like, at some point, like, is 470 00:24:12,830 --> 00:24:15,470 gonna go away and then what? But now with the agency, it was 471 00:24:15,470 --> 00:24:18,505 like, oh, this is a problem. People are landing in spam. They 472 00:24:18,505 --> 00:24:19,385 need new leads. 473 00:24:19,385 --> 00:24:21,545 Like I can productize around this. There's some tooling 474 00:24:21,545 --> 00:24:24,345 around this. Like, and so it was working. I was, I was getting 475 00:24:24,345 --> 00:24:27,225 customers, retaining customers. It wasn't taking off because it 476 00:24:27,225 --> 00:24:27,705 was me. 477 00:24:27,705 --> 00:24:30,585 I had contractors who some of whom were really wonderful, but 478 00:24:30,585 --> 00:24:34,240 like I was never able to fully delegate. So it had these ebbs 479 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:38,800 and flows as I tried to balance sales and delivery. Mhmm. Mhmm. 480 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,160 But then and this is like the worst you're not supposed to do 481 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:42,400 this. 482 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,945 This is like the worst advice. I think maybe the lowest paying 483 00:24:44,945 --> 00:24:49,025 client I ever had in the history of my agency. I mean, I think I 484 00:24:49,025 --> 00:24:51,505 have to go back and check, but I mean, he was paying me almost 485 00:24:51,505 --> 00:24:54,705 nothing. Yeah. Because some months are like, sure. 486 00:24:54,705 --> 00:24:55,185 Okay. 487 00:24:55,185 --> 00:24:57,505 Justin Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You got to 488 00:24:57,505 --> 00:24:57,745 hustle. 489 00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:01,240 Harris Kenny: He was like, you know, I really want this, cold 490 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,000 email data from Smart Lead. I really want it in HubSpot. And I 491 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,600 was like, oh, yeah. Like, we're HubSpot partner. Everyone in 492 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,680 HubSpot always talks about inbound, inbound, inbound. 493 00:25:11,195 --> 00:25:14,875 In fact, everyone in the HubSpot ecosystem is constantly like, at 494 00:25:14,875 --> 00:25:18,235 this time, really posturing against outbound. Like, that's 495 00:25:18,235 --> 00:25:20,395 the whole positioning of HubSpot as inbound. So they're 496 00:25:20,395 --> 00:25:22,395 constantly criticizing it. I was like, well, that's kind of an 497 00:25:22,395 --> 00:25:27,030 interesting thing to be like the outbound person in HubSpot 498 00:25:27,030 --> 00:25:29,830 ecosystem. Like nobody's saying that, that would be and then and 499 00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:31,750 then it made sense to me like, well, yeah, of course you would 500 00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:32,630 want this there. 501 00:25:32,710 --> 00:25:35,990 Yeah. You get a lead and then you need to manage it and they 502 00:25:35,990 --> 00:25:38,230 become a deal and then you close the deal and then they become a 503 00:25:38,230 --> 00:25:41,855 customer. Like, yeah, right. Like, duh. Why why isn't anybody 504 00:25:41,855 --> 00:25:42,575 doing that? 505 00:25:42,575 --> 00:25:45,055 And what I didn't realize at the time, but I now realize is that 506 00:25:45,055 --> 00:25:48,255 like, these tools were very like on the edge. They were like 507 00:25:48,255 --> 00:25:50,575 growth hacking tools and bigger companies that had those 508 00:25:50,575 --> 00:25:54,240 requirements weren't using them, or they weren't using them like 509 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,840 they use the rest of their tools. So it was like a bet 510 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:03,600 basically at the time of like, if this way of generating 511 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,440 generating new leads takes off, then new tools will be required 512 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,255 to like coordinate or orchestrate the new tools with 513 00:26:11,255 --> 00:26:11,815 the old tools 514 00:26:11,975 --> 00:26:12,215 Justin Jackson: Yeah. 515 00:26:12,295 --> 00:26:13,255 Harris Kenny: If it if it takes off. 516 00:26:13,255 --> 00:26:17,255 Justin Jackson: Okay. So let let a client is paying you to help 517 00:26:17,255 --> 00:26:21,335 them manage when you say outbound, you're talking about 518 00:26:21,335 --> 00:26:22,455 sending cold email 519 00:26:22,695 --> 00:26:22,855 Harris Kenny: Yep. 520 00:26:22,970 --> 00:26:25,290 Justin Jackson: Trying to get leads. Yep. And this client 521 00:26:25,290 --> 00:26:29,690 says, this is good. They weren't paying they weren't a high value 522 00:26:29,690 --> 00:26:32,970 customer, but they just said, this is good. I really want this 523 00:26:33,130 --> 00:26:38,185 like, once you get me a lead, I want this to move into HubSpot, 524 00:26:38,185 --> 00:26:40,265 which I'm using as my CRM. 525 00:26:40,905 --> 00:26:43,945 And then as you were looking at HubSpot, you're like, oh, this 526 00:26:43,945 --> 00:26:48,025 is weird. Because HubSpot's whole philosophy was all around 527 00:26:48,025 --> 00:26:51,360 content. Like, you use content to attract leads. So there are 528 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:55,760 inbound leads. They sign up on your blog posts because to get 529 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,360 the PDF. 530 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,960 Yeah. And then you manage the relationship that way. But not a 531 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,040 lot of people using HubSpot were starting with outbound. 532 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,055 Harris Kenny: Mm-mm. No. No. Yeah. At least not publicly. 533 00:27:08,215 --> 00:27:10,775 But then I realized like, actually quite a few of our 534 00:27:10,775 --> 00:27:13,575 HubSpot clients are doing outbound. Yes. And actually 535 00:27:13,575 --> 00:27:18,535 HubSpot themselves has a huge sales team with like a few 100 536 00:27:18,535 --> 00:27:21,095 salespeople and they totally do outbound. 537 00:27:21,410 --> 00:27:23,890 Justin Jackson: Yeah. So this seems like a gap. Like, this is 538 00:27:23,890 --> 00:27:25,090 a opportunity. 539 00:27:25,170 --> 00:27:25,730 Harris Kenny: Exactly. 540 00:27:25,730 --> 00:27:28,290 Justin Jackson: So what did that translate into? What what did 541 00:27:28,290 --> 00:27:29,970 you do with that information? 542 00:27:29,970 --> 00:27:32,130 Harris Kenny: Well, I started to build something. So I started to 543 00:27:32,130 --> 00:27:33,250 build it in make.com. 544 00:27:33,905 --> 00:27:34,545 Justin Jackson: Okay. 545 00:27:35,185 --> 00:27:37,505 Harris Kenny: SmartLead had webhooks, and I thought, okay. 546 00:27:37,505 --> 00:27:40,225 Well, I can take these webhook payloads. Like, as these events 547 00:27:40,225 --> 00:27:44,065 occur in SmartLead, an email is sent, a reply is received. As 548 00:27:44,065 --> 00:27:47,860 these happen, I can take those events, map them, and push them 549 00:27:47,860 --> 00:27:48,900 to HubSpot. Okay. 550 00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:51,620 I I I remember saying, like, how hard like, how hard could it be? 551 00:27:51,620 --> 00:27:54,180 You know? Yeah. Yeah. There's this quote. 552 00:27:54,820 --> 00:27:57,700 We do things not because they're easy, but because we thought 553 00:27:57,700 --> 00:27:58,420 they would be easy. 554 00:28:00,935 --> 00:28:04,055 Justin Jackson: That's that's the entrepreneur's Yeah. Mantra. 555 00:28:04,055 --> 00:28:04,375 Yeah. 556 00:28:04,375 --> 00:28:07,015 Harris Kenny: So that was it. The the the pinboard the 557 00:28:07,015 --> 00:28:09,495 pinboard guy said that, and I it's I think about it all. It's 558 00:28:09,495 --> 00:28:11,735 on LinkedIn. Think about it all the time. I remember literally 559 00:28:11,735 --> 00:28:12,375 being like, oh, yeah. 560 00:28:12,375 --> 00:28:16,360 Like, how are gonna be? And I said that to him. And so so this 561 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:20,040 is May 2023. So Okay. Did we 562 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,080 Justin Jackson: miss a part here? Because you did try to 563 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,600 build IntroCRM. 564 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,640 Harris Kenny: Oh, yes. So my agency was called IntroCRM. Yes. 565 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,320 Sorry. I covered some of the I missed I skipped some of the 566 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,635 SaaS stuff because because it was never a SaaS. 567 00:28:31,875 --> 00:28:35,315 Okay. I tried doing IntroCRM as a SaaS, and now and my agency 568 00:28:35,315 --> 00:28:37,715 just became IntroCRM, but we never I never had a single 569 00:28:37,715 --> 00:28:40,435 paying customer. I built something in Bubble. Oh, man. 570 00:28:40,435 --> 00:28:40,755 Sorry. 571 00:28:40,755 --> 00:28:43,555 I forgot about I haven't thought about that in, like, in, like, a 572 00:28:43,555 --> 00:28:44,115 while. No. 573 00:28:44,115 --> 00:28:44,915 Justin Jackson: That's that's okay. 574 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,600 Harris Kenny: Yeah. Yeah. So oh, yeah. It was so bad. Don't even 575 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:48,160 remember it. 576 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,840 My first necessity was a CRM. 577 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:51,920 Justin Jackson: Yes. So you were doing this agency, and then 578 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,080 you're like, okay. I'm gonna try to build some software. 579 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:54,960 Harris Kenny: Yes. Right. 580 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,480 Justin Jackson: And then you built this tool called InterCRM 581 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,745 in Bubble, but it didn't really take off? It didn't really work? 582 00:29:02,745 --> 00:29:04,985 Harris Kenny: No. Not at all. So it was like my thought was like, 583 00:29:04,985 --> 00:29:06,585 I was using Basecamp. Oh, man. Sorry. 584 00:29:06,585 --> 00:29:09,785 Oh, man. Totally spaced on this chapter. Mm-mm. That's fine. I 585 00:29:09,785 --> 00:29:12,425 was using Basecamp, and I was like, oh, Basecamp, they're 586 00:29:12,425 --> 00:29:13,465 discontinuing Highrise. 587 00:29:13,810 --> 00:29:16,290 Like, there's no CRM like Basecamp, and they're not doing 588 00:29:16,290 --> 00:29:19,490 Highrise anymore. There should be a simple CRM for everybody 589 00:29:19,490 --> 00:29:20,530 that everybody can use. 590 00:29:20,850 --> 00:29:23,170 Justin Jackson: Opportunity. And and, mean, Highrise was, I 591 00:29:23,170 --> 00:29:26,050 think, doing, I don't know, three to five million a year or 592 00:29:26,050 --> 00:29:30,195 something like that. Like, it was it was on Basecamp scale, it 593 00:29:30,195 --> 00:29:34,035 wasn't success successful, quote unquote. But for most of us, 594 00:29:34,035 --> 00:29:35,395 that would be an amazing business. 595 00:29:35,395 --> 00:29:37,315 Harris Kenny: Exactly. And I thought, like, okay. And I 596 00:29:37,315 --> 00:29:40,115 really looked up to Jason Fried and David Heinemeier Hansen. And 597 00:29:40,115 --> 00:29:43,155 part of my idea of, like, going from agency to SaaS was, like, 598 00:29:43,170 --> 00:29:46,050 exactly what they had done. So they were really influential in 599 00:29:46,050 --> 00:29:47,090 my mind at the time. 600 00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:49,970 I don't know. It's hard to know. When I'm being, like, self 601 00:29:49,970 --> 00:29:51,650 critical, I would say, well, they were really they were 602 00:29:51,650 --> 00:29:53,490 really running a design agency. They were really crafts people 603 00:29:53,490 --> 00:29:55,010 and, know Mhmm. What was I doing? 604 00:29:55,010 --> 00:29:57,170 But I think I'm probably being a little hard on myself. I think 605 00:29:57,645 --> 00:30:00,045 like, I I was doing hard stuff, and it and it I think it 606 00:30:00,045 --> 00:30:03,245 ultimately has translated into a good product. And so it's like 607 00:30:03,245 --> 00:30:05,325 sometimes it's hard when you see these people from afar. You kind 608 00:30:05,325 --> 00:30:08,685 of Yeah. You're it feels like unattainable of like but they're 609 00:30:08,685 --> 00:30:11,085 just normal guys too working hard and doing great things, but 610 00:30:11,085 --> 00:30:12,720 they're, you know, just people too. 611 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,680 In hindsight now, I feel like I created too much distance in my 612 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,680 mind between what they were to do and what I what I would be 613 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,520 able to do, you know, of like, oh, how could I ever 614 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,280 Justin Jackson: do that? They're just humans too. I mean, they're 615 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,880 they are very gifted in in many ways. But earlier in my career, 616 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,555 I applied for a job there and flew to Chicago and spent a day 617 00:30:29,555 --> 00:30:33,235 with the team. And that was my sense after that day was I had 618 00:30:33,235 --> 00:30:35,955 like kind of put them up on a pedestal. 619 00:30:36,115 --> 00:30:38,115 But then after spending a day with them, I'm like, oh, these 620 00:30:38,115 --> 00:30:41,475 are just human beings. Like, they're Yeah. There's they are 621 00:30:42,035 --> 00:30:45,050 again, they are good at what they do. They're skilled. It 622 00:30:45,050 --> 00:30:46,810 wasn't, like, magical. 623 00:30:46,810 --> 00:30:50,650 It was just like, these are just people doing work, and they've 624 00:30:50,650 --> 00:30:51,450 achieved something. I think 625 00:30:51,450 --> 00:30:52,490 Harris Kenny: they would probably be, like, the first 626 00:30:52,490 --> 00:30:53,450 ones to say that. Right? 627 00:30:53,450 --> 00:30:54,570 Justin Jackson: Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. 628 00:30:54,570 --> 00:30:54,730 Harris Kenny: They would 629 00:30:54,730 --> 00:30:54,970 Justin Jackson: be like 630 00:30:55,130 --> 00:30:56,570 Harris Kenny: I mean, they you know, I don't think you know, 631 00:30:56,925 --> 00:30:59,245 they just had to have a brand, they did it early, they've done 632 00:30:59,245 --> 00:31:05,085 it at an incredible scale. I think so so IntraCRM was my 633 00:31:05,085 --> 00:31:11,100 first SaaS idea. I built it with Bubble myself. I got help from 634 00:31:11,180 --> 00:31:13,980 so my first idea was an integration. I was like, okay. 635 00:31:13,980 --> 00:31:17,740 So there should be a CRM that integrates with Basecamp because 636 00:31:18,060 --> 00:31:20,540 I thought the first tool that people adopt is project 637 00:31:20,540 --> 00:31:23,935 management software Because you have a couple of clients and you 638 00:31:23,935 --> 00:31:26,015 don't need a CRM yet, so you start with a project management 639 00:31:26,015 --> 00:31:28,095 software like Trello or Basecamp, and then you start to 640 00:31:28,095 --> 00:31:30,335 get more clients and then you realize, oh, I kind of have to 641 00:31:30,335 --> 00:31:33,055 manage these leads. I need a CRM. And so my thought was the 642 00:31:33,055 --> 00:31:35,710 first thing that should integrate should be a CRM, but 643 00:31:35,710 --> 00:31:37,870 the core system of record is actually the project management 644 00:31:37,870 --> 00:31:39,870 tool and they kind of go back and forth. So that was my first 645 00:31:39,870 --> 00:31:43,550 idea. And so I had Lola, Lunchpail Labs, she built the 646 00:31:43,550 --> 00:31:44,590 integration for me. 647 00:31:44,670 --> 00:31:49,325 We we integrated with Trello and Basecamp and, oh gosh, I can't 648 00:31:49,325 --> 00:31:51,325 remember it now, but there was, like, I think maybe a third 649 00:31:51,805 --> 00:31:54,445 project management tool that we integrated with. Because I was 650 00:31:54,445 --> 00:31:55,965 working with all these founders and they were in project 651 00:31:55,965 --> 00:31:58,205 management tools all day. Mhmm. And I was like, oh, yeah. Like, 652 00:31:58,205 --> 00:32:00,045 so they would maybe use this and they're not using HubSpot 653 00:32:00,045 --> 00:32:01,005 because it's too bloated. 654 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,720 Yeah. And there's too much to do. 655 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,200 Justin Jackson: And so you tried to sell it to folks, but it just 656 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:05,840 didn't work? 657 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,840 Harris Kenny: I was like, well, so, like, we have this basic CRM 658 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,120 and it comes with these services. Okay. And they were 659 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,525 like, we just we just wanna work with you. We don't we don't want 660 00:32:14,525 --> 00:32:15,325 your CRM. 661 00:32:15,805 --> 00:32:18,125 Justin Jackson: Got it. So the so when you pitched people on 662 00:32:18,125 --> 00:32:23,885 it, they were like, like, we just want the services part. Why 663 00:32:23,885 --> 00:32:25,885 why do you think they didn't want the CRM? Like, what were 664 00:32:25,885 --> 00:32:26,845 they using instead? 665 00:32:27,085 --> 00:32:28,925 Harris Kenny: They just, like, didn't check it, didn't log into 666 00:32:28,925 --> 00:32:32,390 it. I had, like, an amazing client, and she was just very 667 00:32:32,390 --> 00:32:35,830 kind. And I felt like if anyone, she would have just, like, 668 00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:39,110 logged in just out of, like, curiosity and sympathy 669 00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:40,230 Justin Jackson: Yeah. Or pity. 670 00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:42,390 Harris Kenny: And even she had never logged in. So I was like, 671 00:32:42,390 --> 00:32:46,115 okay. This is like, nobody cares about this, really. 672 00:32:46,115 --> 00:32:48,435 Justin Jackson: I think what's interesting about this is your 673 00:32:48,435 --> 00:32:50,755 hypothesis seems reasonable. 674 00:32:50,995 --> 00:32:51,315 Harris Kenny: Mhmm. 675 00:32:51,315 --> 00:32:53,235 Justin Jackson: And so then, you know, there's different 676 00:32:53,235 --> 00:32:55,875 questions. Is it is it the way you're marketing it? Is the way 677 00:32:55,875 --> 00:33:01,450 you're positioning it? Is it the actual product isn't solid? So 678 00:33:01,450 --> 00:33:05,370 those folks that weren't logging in, what were they doing 679 00:33:05,370 --> 00:33:06,090 instead? 680 00:33:06,090 --> 00:33:09,530 Like, what were they using instead of your CRM? Were they 681 00:33:09,530 --> 00:33:12,650 just using no CRM? Like, they Yeah. There wasn't actually any 682 00:33:13,455 --> 00:33:14,335 movement there? 683 00:33:14,335 --> 00:33:16,015 Harris Kenny: Yeah. They would like use nothing or they would 684 00:33:16,015 --> 00:33:18,175 use a Google Sheet or they would just kind of manage it out of 685 00:33:18,175 --> 00:33:21,055 their inbox. I think there's like a version of this, but I 686 00:33:21,055 --> 00:33:24,255 don't think I have founder market fit to build it. It has 687 00:33:24,255 --> 00:33:27,840 to be like a product led thing. It would have to be like, you 688 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:34,080 just drop in and like now with AI and these AI native tools, I 689 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,120 could imagine there being a CRM that connects with Gmail. 690 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,595 And it's like, if your business is small and simple enough, if 691 00:33:40,595 --> 00:33:44,675 it connects to your calendar and your inbox, it will maintain 692 00:33:44,675 --> 00:33:47,555 their data model for you and create little deals for you. I 693 00:33:47,555 --> 00:33:50,675 could actually see that today. Yeah. And that would be good 694 00:33:50,675 --> 00:33:52,675 enough for this kind of user. Because the problem is the 695 00:33:52,675 --> 00:33:52,995 entry. 696 00:33:53,970 --> 00:33:56,530 The like logging in, logging out, updating fields, like 697 00:33:56,530 --> 00:34:01,250 nobody, it just wasn't worth their time to do it. Then when 698 00:34:01,250 --> 00:34:03,970 they got big enough, they hired somebody to do it. And then that 699 00:34:03,970 --> 00:34:05,650 person wanted a real tool, right? 700 00:34:05,650 --> 00:34:08,285 Justin Jackson: Yeah, and then they would so you were in this 701 00:34:08,285 --> 00:34:12,765 kind of in between IntroCRM as a software product was like in an 702 00:34:12,765 --> 00:34:17,165 in between state and that was like not quite right. 703 00:34:17,165 --> 00:34:19,965 Harris Kenny: Yeah. It just didn't quite land. But but I was 704 00:34:19,965 --> 00:34:23,740 right that people like, the the core idea of, like, these things 705 00:34:23,740 --> 00:34:27,260 don't talk to each other, that has, like, a thread that has 706 00:34:27,260 --> 00:34:29,420 been true for a while. And, like, even back to the three d 707 00:34:29,420 --> 00:34:32,380 printing company and even back to the ERP consulting company, 708 00:34:32,380 --> 00:34:35,500 like, partnerships has been, like, the thread of growth 709 00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:37,965 through, like, fifteen years of my career through the companies 710 00:34:37,965 --> 00:34:41,165 that I've grown. That is like a that is like a continuity thing. 711 00:34:41,325 --> 00:34:43,485 Like, my idea of, like, these things don't talk to each other. 712 00:34:43,485 --> 00:34:46,045 That is now fundamentally what AppOnSync is built on today. 713 00:34:46,045 --> 00:34:51,370 Justin Jackson: I think that is such a crucial observation. It 714 00:34:51,370 --> 00:34:56,010 doesn't mean your hypotheses will always be correct, but that 715 00:34:56,410 --> 00:35:02,810 alone is just true. And in an AI world, I feel like that's more 716 00:35:02,810 --> 00:35:08,215 true than ever. Like everybody's typing into ChatGPT and Claude, 717 00:35:09,175 --> 00:35:13,815 but there's still not a lot of glue between like, Claude could 718 00:35:13,815 --> 00:35:17,815 tell you to go do something, but then you've gotta there's this 719 00:35:17,815 --> 00:35:22,690 chasm that jump over. You're the one that's got to go do what it 720 00:35:22,690 --> 00:35:23,810 just told you to do. 721 00:35:23,810 --> 00:35:26,770 Yeah. And there's going to be more and more glue needed 722 00:35:26,770 --> 00:35:31,090 between these things. Yes. And I think there's going to be a lot 723 00:35:31,090 --> 00:35:35,425 of opportunity just in that. Even, you know, like Zapier 724 00:35:35,425 --> 00:35:38,625 integrations break all the time, or they're not quite right, or 725 00:35:38,625 --> 00:35:42,305 there's just all of these holes, all of these little 726 00:35:42,305 --> 00:35:44,785 opportunities, all of these little friction points where 727 00:35:44,785 --> 00:35:45,585 it's like, ah. 728 00:35:45,585 --> 00:35:50,870 Another one I've observed is if you go to a retail store, I 729 00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:54,550 would ask owners about what they were doing and they're still 730 00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:59,110 entering inventory manually. Mhmm. And you'd think, oh, man, 731 00:35:59,110 --> 00:36:03,435 like there's a barcode on every product they get in And you'd 732 00:36:03,435 --> 00:36:06,635 think that or you'd think that the the supplier or the 733 00:36:06,635 --> 00:36:11,195 distributor could just send them some sort of JSON, some sort of 734 00:36:11,195 --> 00:36:15,675 data that would just populate their point of sale system. But 735 00:36:14,890 --> 00:36:19,290 still in 2025 and still with modern point of sales like 736 00:36:19,290 --> 00:36:25,290 Square, they're still entering data in manually. And again, 737 00:36:25,290 --> 00:36:28,090 maybe there's not enough money there or friction. 738 00:36:28,170 --> 00:36:32,715 Like, the economics of all that of the opportunity might not be 739 00:36:32,715 --> 00:36:35,755 there, but the thread is correct. Yeah. And I think 740 00:36:35,755 --> 00:36:40,555 you've identified like, there's gonna still there's still so 741 00:36:40,555 --> 00:36:45,010 much manual data entry right now. There's there's lots of 742 00:36:45,010 --> 00:36:47,490 opportunities here if you're, like, looking. 743 00:36:47,490 --> 00:36:49,250 Harris Kenny: I think so. Absolutely. And here's the 744 00:36:49,250 --> 00:36:51,410 thing. So someone would say, well, yeah, of course, you gotta 745 00:36:51,410 --> 00:36:53,330 enter this thing into Claude, then you gotta go to the other 746 00:36:53,330 --> 00:36:55,890 thing. Well, that's where MCP servers come in, and that's why 747 00:36:56,345 --> 00:36:58,025 agentic workflows are so exciting. 748 00:36:58,025 --> 00:37:04,025 Yeah. I mean, any developer, Hey, so tomorrow I'm going to 749 00:37:04,025 --> 00:37:07,225 publish our database schema. Nothing will be lost, no 750 00:37:07,225 --> 00:37:09,830 security issues. I'm just going to publish it and post it 751 00:37:09,830 --> 00:37:12,630 online. Like, do you would you be proud of that? 752 00:37:12,630 --> 00:37:16,390 Do you have any issues maybe with the tables and the labels? 753 00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:19,110 Do you feel like our database is well documented if you were to 754 00:37:19,110 --> 00:37:21,510 get hit by a bus tomorrow? I mean, how many developers would 755 00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:24,995 be like, no problem. Open Kimono. Let the world see. 756 00:37:25,155 --> 00:37:27,235 And so if that's the case, if the developer who's building and 757 00:37:27,235 --> 00:37:29,235 maintaining a code doesn't feel like it's exceptionally well 758 00:37:29,235 --> 00:37:31,555 documented to them, then how the heck is Claude going to know 759 00:37:31,555 --> 00:37:34,195 what to do? Yeah. It's going to stumble. It's going to stumble 760 00:37:34,195 --> 00:37:36,115 in the tables and it's going to stumble in the And you can say, 761 00:37:36,115 --> 00:37:37,235 Well, they'll figure it out. How? 762 00:37:37,730 --> 00:37:39,810 There's all these nuances, especially like when you get to 763 00:37:39,810 --> 00:37:41,970 the edge cases and the edge cases are sometimes what matter 764 00:37:41,970 --> 00:37:42,450 the most. 765 00:37:42,450 --> 00:37:44,770 Justin Jackson: The edge cases are what's real. This is why 766 00:37:44,770 --> 00:37:47,890 every time I look at a demo, like somebody releases some sort 767 00:37:47,890 --> 00:37:50,850 of demo, it's like, okay, this is not a real company. This is 768 00:37:50,850 --> 00:37:54,445 not a real use case. This is not nothing. This is all fantasy. 769 00:37:54,925 --> 00:38:02,685 But, you know, come into my world. And it's even like the 770 00:38:03,565 --> 00:38:09,360 like right now, when I am trying to level audio Mhmm. I use this 771 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:14,000 tool called Eulene audio meter or whatever. It it tells me the 772 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,880 loudness in Loofs. But then I take a screenshot of that, bring 773 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:24,785 it into Claude, then give it the there's these built in Apple 774 00:38:24,785 --> 00:38:26,145 audio filters. 775 00:38:26,145 --> 00:38:31,265 I say, here's the audio filter, AU Dynamics. Tell me what to use 776 00:38:31,265 --> 00:38:33,985 here, like how much gain, how much release time, all that 777 00:38:33,985 --> 00:38:39,410 stuff. That is friction. Right. And you think, you know, there's 778 00:38:39,410 --> 00:38:42,690 a modern world, like maybe with Apple shortcuts, I could do 779 00:38:42,690 --> 00:38:47,490 something or may and the truth is, is it's still a lot of 780 00:38:47,490 --> 00:38:51,715 friction to get something from one system to another. 781 00:38:51,875 --> 00:38:57,475 And for most users, that still exists and there's just a lot of 782 00:38:57,475 --> 00:39:02,675 opportunity there. Yes. Like, if there was a tool that, in my 783 00:39:02,675 --> 00:39:06,650 case, like maybe a web app or something, that, you know, 784 00:39:06,650 --> 00:39:11,770 automatically gave me a loudness score for my raw audio and then 785 00:39:12,490 --> 00:39:15,530 told me what, you know, what to do or just automatically did it 786 00:39:15,530 --> 00:39:19,465 for me, I might might pay for that. Right? 787 00:39:19,465 --> 00:39:21,465 Harris Kenny: Yeah. That's how you discover problems. Yeah. 788 00:39:21,465 --> 00:39:23,065 Well, that's where yeah. And that's where it gets 789 00:39:23,065 --> 00:39:23,785 complicated. 790 00:39:23,865 --> 00:39:27,225 Yeah. But no. I I think that like with I mean, with AI, I 791 00:39:27,225 --> 00:39:29,785 mean, imagine if you had like a library, you know, like a 792 00:39:29,785 --> 00:39:32,505 physical library. Mhmm. But like no card catalog. 793 00:39:32,665 --> 00:39:34,920 Yeah. It's like, okay, well, are you gonna find the book? And I 794 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,320 mean, and at some point you're expending and this is the thing 795 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,080 I think people aren't talking about. They say, this is the 796 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:40,760 worst it's ever gonna be. It's always gonna get better. 797 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,480 Like, well, maybe. There's also like a lot of money being spent 798 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,975 right now. And like, at some point, there's gonna need to be 799 00:39:46,975 --> 00:39:49,295 a return on these things. And at some point, they're gonna start 800 00:39:49,295 --> 00:39:51,855 charging more. And so, I mean, yes, I understand that in 801 00:39:51,855 --> 00:39:53,935 theory, things will get better, but like nothing gets better 802 00:39:53,935 --> 00:39:54,495 forever. 803 00:39:54,815 --> 00:39:57,375 Yeah. I mean, the only thing that grows infinitely is cancer 804 00:39:57,375 --> 00:40:00,015 cells. Yeah. You know? And then you have like system collapse. 805 00:40:00,015 --> 00:40:03,630 So it's just like, I like AI. We use it. I've I tried building a 806 00:40:03,630 --> 00:40:06,670 a GPT wrapper. So Yeah. Let's talk those other SaaS ideas. 807 00:40:06,670 --> 00:40:10,430 So Yeah. CRM didn't work. But then I got into this they wanted 808 00:40:10,430 --> 00:40:12,590 the service, so I did the service. And then they said, 809 00:40:12,590 --> 00:40:15,755 okay. Well, I'm giving them lead lists to give me feedback to 810 00:40:15,755 --> 00:40:19,355 score them so I can make them better lists, better fits. 811 00:40:19,435 --> 00:40:21,995 Yeah. Because I'm using like database tools like ZoomInfo and 812 00:40:21,995 --> 00:40:24,795 Apollo. And so I'm giving them Google Sheets. And so I was 813 00:40:24,795 --> 00:40:27,675 like, oh, this is a SaaS. It's a lead rater. 814 00:40:27,595 --> 00:40:31,630 Built it with Glide. I give you like a sample set of leads. You 815 00:40:31,630 --> 00:40:36,430 can swipe through it like a dating app. Yeah. Say which ones 816 00:40:36,430 --> 00:40:37,630 you like, say which ones you don't. 817 00:40:37,630 --> 00:40:40,190 I'm going to take that feedback and I'm going to go build a 818 00:40:40,190 --> 00:40:40,990 better list. 819 00:40:40,990 --> 00:40:42,350 Justin Jackson: That also seems like a good idea. 820 00:40:42,745 --> 00:40:44,345 Harris Kenny: Yeah. It wasn't it wasn't, like, wasn't, like, the 821 00:40:44,345 --> 00:40:47,225 worst. You know? I mean, it I mean, it's it's kinda like an 822 00:40:47,225 --> 00:40:48,185 LLM concept. Right? 823 00:40:48,185 --> 00:40:49,385 It's like reinforcement training 824 00:40:49,385 --> 00:40:49,625 Justin Jackson: from 825 00:40:49,625 --> 00:40:51,945 Harris Kenny: the person who knows. It took a lot of work, 826 00:40:51,945 --> 00:40:54,345 and, again, like, they they weren't spending the time on it. 827 00:40:54,345 --> 00:40:56,425 I I don't know. It just for whatever reason, it didn't quite 828 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,400 click. People didn't wanna do it or or they were just getting too 829 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:01,520 lost in the weeds. 830 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,200 Mhmm. And I was like, yeah. Like, I understand what you're 831 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,560 saying, but we just need to send some email. And if if it's not a 832 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:08,160 fit, they just won't get back to us. It's okay. 833 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,545 Yeah. Doesn't have to be perfect. So I don't know. It 834 00:41:10,545 --> 00:41:11,345 just, didn't work. 835 00:41:11,345 --> 00:41:12,945 Justin Jackson: You know that oh, that's such an interesting 836 00:41:13,185 --> 00:41:17,505 the thought I just had, because you've mentioned this twice now, 837 00:41:17,745 --> 00:41:21,505 which is, like, they couldn't take the time or make the effort 838 00:41:21,505 --> 00:41:24,840 to log in. Or they couldn't take the time or make the effort to 839 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:31,160 log in, in this case, score some leads or whatever. I think this 840 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:36,525 happens a lot more than we realize, which is there's just a 841 00:41:36,525 --> 00:41:42,605 certain category of applications where you're not gonna get 842 00:41:42,605 --> 00:41:47,165 people to log in, and that's difficult. It's like it's like 843 00:41:48,525 --> 00:41:51,800 I'll I'll I'll use this as an example. I actually love this 844 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,960 tool and I pay for this tool, but I think it's still a good 845 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:56,600 example is seotesting.com. 846 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:57,080 Harris Kenny: Mhmm. 847 00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,000 Justin Jackson: I love this product. You know, they're 848 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,525 friends of mine. I think it's a great product. But my 849 00:42:02,525 --> 00:42:08,365 interaction with the product is basically at this point 95% just 850 00:42:08,365 --> 00:42:11,805 through the emails they send me of here's this month's top 851 00:42:11,805 --> 00:42:16,140 keywords, here's the winners and losers. Am I setting up a lot of 852 00:42:16,140 --> 00:42:17,260 SEO tests? 853 00:42:17,260 --> 00:42:26,060 Not really. And that's I think that because there's just only 854 00:42:26,060 --> 00:42:30,865 so many apps I can log into regularly. Right. And even like 855 00:42:31,265 --> 00:42:33,905 like, oh, I've got these analytics. Like, you're gonna 856 00:42:33,905 --> 00:42:35,425 log in and get these analytics. 857 00:42:35,745 --> 00:42:40,865 It's like, well, the only apps I really do that for is like 858 00:42:40,865 --> 00:42:46,530 revenue analytics because money is important. And then kind of 859 00:42:46,530 --> 00:42:50,290 performance based metrics on content. Like Yeah. You know, 860 00:42:50,690 --> 00:42:54,290 blog, you know, website analytics and podcast analytics 861 00:42:54,290 --> 00:42:56,610 and YouTube analytics. I'll look at all of those. 862 00:42:57,090 --> 00:43:01,015 But anything outside of that, it's just like, oh, you want me 863 00:43:01,015 --> 00:43:04,215 to log in and score a bunch of leads? It's like, that seems 864 00:43:04,215 --> 00:43:08,455 like a good idea in as a concept. Like, yeah, I would 865 00:43:08,455 --> 00:43:11,070 like to do that. I would like to get better leads. And, yeah, I 866 00:43:11,070 --> 00:43:14,910 could see even a fun interface like like a dating app. 867 00:43:14,910 --> 00:43:18,590 Like, I could see myself doing that. But at the end of the day, 868 00:43:18,590 --> 00:43:22,190 it's another thing to log into Exactly. That I I only have so 869 00:43:22,190 --> 00:43:25,870 many spaces in my life for things that I log into. 870 00:43:26,255 --> 00:43:27,055 Harris Kenny: Exactly. 871 00:43:27,055 --> 00:43:28,415 Justin Jackson: Yeah. That's interesting. 872 00:43:28,415 --> 00:43:30,735 Harris Kenny: So it just, like, it didn't it didn't quite click. 873 00:43:31,615 --> 00:43:34,815 It was so then the the third idea that I had was draft 874 00:43:34,815 --> 00:43:38,495 studio. This was like an early g GPT wrapper product. I actually 875 00:43:38,495 --> 00:43:41,055 use it internally. So in cold email, there's this thing called 876 00:43:41,055 --> 00:43:44,860 SpinTax where you give it a word and then you give it variations 877 00:43:44,860 --> 00:43:45,820 of that word. 878 00:43:45,820 --> 00:43:49,820 So like, hello, hi, hey, hey there, greetings, good morning, 879 00:43:49,820 --> 00:43:50,700 good afternoon, whatever. 880 00:43:50,700 --> 00:43:51,100 Justin Jackson: Yeah. 881 00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:52,860 Harris Kenny: And so you could like take an email or you could 882 00:43:52,860 --> 00:43:55,660 take a phrase, drop it into draft studio. It would spin up 883 00:43:55,660 --> 00:43:58,905 permutations of that and then spit out spin tax that you could 884 00:43:58,905 --> 00:44:01,065 just drop into Smart Lead so that your emails would be 885 00:44:01,065 --> 00:44:03,705 different from each other, which would help with deliverability. 886 00:44:03,705 --> 00:44:05,785 Yeah. Actually, I liked it. I used it a lot. 887 00:44:05,785 --> 00:44:08,905 It was useful. As AI has accelerated, and it's it's just 888 00:44:08,905 --> 00:44:11,225 like made some of these things less necessary now, people are 889 00:44:11,225 --> 00:44:15,290 making fully unique emails every time. Mhmm. So it's just like I 890 00:44:15,290 --> 00:44:18,010 just kinda knew it didn't have a long term potential. I liked it 891 00:44:18,010 --> 00:44:19,850 as an app and I used it a lot. 892 00:44:19,930 --> 00:44:23,450 I did have a few people who used it a lot and liked it too. But 893 00:44:23,450 --> 00:44:28,805 it was just it was just a as a GBC rapper, it was too simple to 894 00:44:28,805 --> 00:44:32,485 really go anywhere, and I kinda always knew that. I was busier 895 00:44:32,485 --> 00:44:33,445 with the agency. And 896 00:44:33,925 --> 00:44:36,005 Justin Jackson: that also seems like the kind of thing that 897 00:44:36,005 --> 00:44:39,845 eventually if I could figure out a process for doing that in 898 00:44:39,845 --> 00:44:42,565 ChatGPT or Claude, I would just do that. Totally. 899 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,680 Harris Kenny: Yeah. Yeah. So like that but it was okay. But 900 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,600 it was technically a SaaS. I built it in Glide. 901 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,720 I thought about charging for it. And then and then so so that all 902 00:44:50,720 --> 00:44:52,720 of those things happened between, like, when interest 903 00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:56,895 CRM, I registered that domain in 2020. Yeah. And then I started 904 00:44:56,895 --> 00:44:58,815 building up on sync in May 2023. 905 00:44:58,815 --> 00:44:59,215 Justin Jackson: Okay. 906 00:44:59,215 --> 00:45:02,655 Harris Kenny: So that was I think it was my fourth idea. My 907 00:45:02,655 --> 00:45:04,655 fifth idea, which I've, like, almost not really talked about 908 00:45:04,655 --> 00:45:08,255 very much, but it was card importer. There was, like, the 909 00:45:07,470 --> 00:45:10,030 HubSpot's default card importer is actually really not great. 910 00:45:10,030 --> 00:45:10,590 Justin Jackson: Okay. 911 00:45:10,590 --> 00:45:12,510 Harris Kenny: And so it was, like, a really basic take a 912 00:45:12,510 --> 00:45:14,830 picture of your business card, scans it in HubSpot. It's 913 00:45:14,830 --> 00:45:16,990 actually a really big like, it's a thing. There's a lot of 914 00:45:16,990 --> 00:45:20,510 HubSpot comments and a forum about wanting these features. I 915 00:45:20,510 --> 00:45:22,750 posted a YouTube video. I still get messages on LinkedIn about 916 00:45:22,750 --> 00:45:22,830 it. 917 00:45:23,165 --> 00:45:25,165 People being like, hey. Is Cardimporter, like, still 918 00:45:25,165 --> 00:45:27,485 available? Yeah. So I actually think it like, there's 919 00:45:27,485 --> 00:45:30,525 something, but it's not a it was my fifth idea. Nap on Sing was 920 00:45:30,525 --> 00:45:32,125 taken off, so I just didn't do anything with it. 921 00:45:32,125 --> 00:45:34,845 Mhmm. But of of the ideas, it was probably my second best 922 00:45:36,070 --> 00:45:40,630 idea, but it would need more around it to, like, become 923 00:45:40,630 --> 00:45:43,350 something. Yeah. But I guess my point is, like, not all of my 924 00:45:43,350 --> 00:45:45,190 ideas were bad. 925 00:45:45,670 --> 00:45:47,925 Justin Jackson: Yeah. I mean, I think that's what's interesting 926 00:45:47,925 --> 00:45:52,005 is none of these ideas actually seem bad. They all seem like 927 00:45:52,005 --> 00:45:57,445 reasonable bets. And it's kind of like you can follow all of 928 00:45:57,445 --> 00:46:01,940 the advice for looking for business ideas. Like you go into 929 00:46:01,940 --> 00:46:04,500 the forums and what are people commenting about? 930 00:46:04,980 --> 00:46:08,260 You talking you had consulting clients and you're listening to 931 00:46:08,260 --> 00:46:13,945 their pains and their friction, and that's all a part of it. And 932 00:46:13,945 --> 00:46:17,625 basically, you're doing all of that work, which by the way, I 933 00:46:17,625 --> 00:46:22,505 think like 90% of people don't do that work. But it's that work 934 00:46:22,505 --> 00:46:26,985 that sets you up for some good at bats. Yeah. And I think the 935 00:46:26,985 --> 00:46:30,440 truth is is like, you look at professional baseball players. 936 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:33,160 These are people who have trained their entire lives to 937 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:37,320 hit baseballs, and they have a hard time hitting baseballs. 938 00:46:37,720 --> 00:46:38,360 Harris Kenny: Totally. 939 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,280 Justin Jackson: Right? So you you can do all of the 940 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:45,455 foundational work, but their chances, their odds of hitting a 941 00:46:45,455 --> 00:46:49,935 baseball are much higher than mine are. Right? Totally. So all 942 00:46:49,935 --> 00:46:51,935 of that foundational work matters. 943 00:46:52,335 --> 00:46:55,535 You've got to do all that work to get up to the plate and have 944 00:46:55,535 --> 00:47:00,360 a reasonable shot at hitting the ball. And then even then, you 945 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,840 might hit it. You might foul. You might walk. You might just 946 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:05,800 get a line drive. 947 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,240 You might get a home run. Like, those are all opportunities. 948 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,280 Those are all sorry. You know, potential outcomes. 949 00:47:12,765 --> 00:47:13,325 Harris Kenny: Mhmm. 950 00:47:13,325 --> 00:47:17,005 Justin Jackson: But it's still it's like a lot of players get 951 00:47:17,005 --> 00:47:19,405 up to bat and they strike out. 952 00:47:19,645 --> 00:47:20,045 Harris Kenny: Right. 953 00:47:20,045 --> 00:47:21,405 Justin Jackson: And they're good players. 954 00:47:21,405 --> 00:47:22,925 Harris Kenny: But what's the number? It's like if you bat 955 00:47:22,925 --> 00:47:25,165 300, you're in the hall of fame or what you know, there's 956 00:47:25,165 --> 00:47:25,805 something like that. 957 00:47:25,805 --> 00:47:27,965 Justin Jackson: Yeah. I mean, I I'm actually not a baseball fan. 958 00:47:27,965 --> 00:47:29,780 Harris Kenny: Yeah. I'm not I'm not either, but I know there's 959 00:47:29,780 --> 00:47:31,860 some number where it's like not that many. And if you actually 960 00:47:31,860 --> 00:47:33,700 hit that many, you're like one of the best of all time kind of 961 00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:33,780 thing. 962 00:47:33,780 --> 00:47:36,980 Justin Jackson: I mean, this is the this is the whole point. I 963 00:47:36,980 --> 00:47:41,300 think this is why sports is a in some ways, sports is a bad 964 00:47:41,300 --> 00:47:44,445 metaphor for business because sports really is zero sum. 965 00:47:44,605 --> 00:47:48,925 Right. Business has there's more opportunities. Like, there can 966 00:47:48,925 --> 00:47:53,565 be multiple CRM software providers, and, you know, you 967 00:47:53,565 --> 00:47:54,445 could still win. 968 00:47:54,605 --> 00:47:59,040 Totally. So I but I think what's instructive about your story and 969 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:03,760 my story and really almost everybody I know, almost very 970 00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:09,445 few people get up to bat and hit a line drive or a home run their 971 00:48:09,445 --> 00:48:15,045 first at bat. And I also see there's in entrepreneurship, 972 00:48:15,525 --> 00:48:18,885 there are a ton of people who have not done the foundational 973 00:48:18,885 --> 00:48:22,150 work. They don't have clients that they're observing and 974 00:48:22,150 --> 00:48:25,350 getting, like seeing where their pain points are, seeing where 975 00:48:25,350 --> 00:48:27,990 the gaps are, seeing where the opportunities are. They're not 976 00:48:27,990 --> 00:48:29,270 looking at the forums. 977 00:48:29,430 --> 00:48:33,110 They're not exploring and evaluating ideas in this way. 978 00:48:33,750 --> 00:48:36,870 They don't have a network. They don't have any skills. And so, 979 00:48:37,805 --> 00:48:41,565 you know, what is the success rate of any given entrepreneur 980 00:48:41,565 --> 00:48:46,205 stepping up to bat? Well, it's nearly zero because there's an 981 00:48:46,205 --> 00:48:48,125 infinite number of people who want to do it. 982 00:48:48,125 --> 00:48:53,005 But like I said, I think 90%, 95% of them aren't even doing 983 00:48:53,670 --> 00:48:58,230 the basic foundational work to even have a chance of hitting a 984 00:48:58,230 --> 00:49:02,390 baseball. Definitely. You do the basic find the basic 985 00:49:02,390 --> 00:49:07,670 foundational work to give yourself a chance. And then 986 00:49:08,345 --> 00:49:12,185 that's after that, it's like, we'll see what happens. You 987 00:49:12,185 --> 00:49:12,425 know? 988 00:49:12,425 --> 00:49:17,865 Yeah. Hit this one. Okay. It was, you know, I barely got on 989 00:49:17,865 --> 00:49:18,425 base. 990 00:49:18,665 --> 00:49:20,345 Harris Kenny: Yeah. Well, it's like the harder I work, the 991 00:49:20,345 --> 00:49:23,545 luckier I get. Right? It's like, I definitely think this was like 992 00:49:23,545 --> 00:49:27,200 a lot of a lot of work. But but so because of all this, when 993 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:31,200 outbound synced, like, when I did that and I started talking 994 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:32,240 about it to people, I was 995 00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:34,080 Justin Jackson: like Sync is your is the idea that you're 996 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:34,880 working on right now. 997 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:35,200 Harris Kenny: This is 998 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:36,320 Justin Jackson: the one that worked. 999 00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,320 Harris Kenny: Yes. I've been doing this for two years. It's 1000 00:49:38,085 --> 00:49:41,045 profitable. We've got three people on the team. We've been 1001 00:49:41,045 --> 00:49:46,365 growing 10 to 20% every month literally since we since October 1002 00:49:46,365 --> 00:49:47,125 2023. 1003 00:49:47,125 --> 00:49:49,285 Like it like and but there were there were things that were 1004 00:49:49,285 --> 00:49:51,525 happening with it where I was like, this has never happened 1005 00:49:51,525 --> 00:49:51,685 before. 1006 00:49:52,230 --> 00:49:54,470 Justin Jackson: Okay. Okay. What's different. Let let's 1007 00:49:54,470 --> 00:49:57,030 explore that. So you you went through these other ideas. 1008 00:49:57,990 --> 00:50:01,670 All of them are like, maybe you get on base, but it's not really 1009 00:50:01,830 --> 00:50:03,910 or maybe you don't even get on base. Yeah. 1010 00:50:03,910 --> 00:50:05,190 Harris Kenny: And then Maybe by 1011 00:50:05,190 --> 00:50:06,345 Justin Jackson: domain. Yeah. Maybe by domain. Yeah. Maybe by 1012 00:50:06,345 --> 00:50:07,065 domain. 1013 00:50:07,145 --> 00:50:10,425 So what was the genesis of outbound sync? What like, what 1014 00:50:10,425 --> 00:50:14,025 was the observation that you're like, oh, some this is worth 1015 00:50:14,025 --> 00:50:14,585 doing? 1016 00:50:14,665 --> 00:50:16,825 Harris Kenny: So, you know, so I had that client. He said he 1017 00:50:16,825 --> 00:50:19,510 wanted them to talk to each other. I said, okay. Sounds 1018 00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:21,670 interesting. Built out a basic version of it. 1019 00:50:21,670 --> 00:50:23,590 And then I started posting about it on LinkedIn because LinkedIn 1020 00:50:23,590 --> 00:50:25,270 is my only water cooler at this point. 1021 00:50:25,350 --> 00:50:25,830 Justin Jackson: Okay. 1022 00:50:25,830 --> 00:50:27,990 Harris Kenny: Because I figured like the people who if I'm gonna 1023 00:50:27,990 --> 00:50:30,310 build something based on the space that I'm in, they're gonna 1024 00:50:30,310 --> 00:50:33,485 be there. Yeah. Probably. So I start posting about it there. I 1025 00:50:33,485 --> 00:50:35,885 post about it in some WhatsApp groups, and I get some people 1026 00:50:35,885 --> 00:50:36,365 biting. 1027 00:50:36,365 --> 00:50:38,845 So in outbound, a lot of people are in WhatsApp groups, just by 1028 00:50:38,845 --> 00:50:39,805 the way. I don't 1029 00:50:39,805 --> 00:50:40,205 Justin Jackson: know why. 1030 00:50:40,205 --> 00:50:43,165 Harris Kenny: It's very international. Like, very there 1031 00:50:43,165 --> 00:50:46,400 are some biases, but in general, it's pretty meritocratic. I've 1032 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,160 got a lot of people who I talk with who are like, I don't know 1033 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:49,760 their name. I don't know their face. I don't know anything 1034 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,640 about them, but they're in these groups and they're kind of 1035 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,600 anonymous like hacker chat kind of growth hacker chats. 1036 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:57,120 Justin Jackson: How did you get in those WhatsApp groups? 1037 00:50:58,575 --> 00:51:01,455 Harris Kenny: That's a good question. I don't well, when I 1038 00:51:01,455 --> 00:51:04,255 was running my agency, that's when I got exposure to some of 1039 00:51:04,255 --> 00:51:06,655 those chats and, like, other agency owners are in some of 1040 00:51:06,655 --> 00:51:07,455 those groups. 1041 00:51:07,615 --> 00:51:09,455 Justin Jackson: Okay. And they'd say, hey. You might wanna join 1042 00:51:09,455 --> 00:51:10,175 this group. 1043 00:51:10,415 --> 00:51:12,580 Harris Kenny: Yeah. Hey. Oh, yeah. Exactly. And, like, one of 1044 00:51:12,580 --> 00:51:14,900 them, like, they had, like, a just, like, they were promoting 1045 00:51:14,900 --> 00:51:15,620 it to, like, hey. 1046 00:51:15,620 --> 00:51:18,020 Join my group. And there's no caution in it that I just kind 1047 00:51:18,020 --> 00:51:20,260 of joined the group. Share best practices. There's kind of like 1048 00:51:20,260 --> 00:51:22,100 a guild. You know, there's, like it's kind of like there's honor 1049 00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:22,820 among thieves. 1050 00:51:22,820 --> 00:51:24,980 Mhmm. The, like, the best outbound people, like, all know 1051 00:51:24,980 --> 00:51:27,685 each other, and they all talk. And they all share notes and and 1052 00:51:27,685 --> 00:51:30,885 they don't consider themselves as really direct competitors in 1053 00:51:30,885 --> 00:51:34,885 a in a traditional way. Yeah. Like, it's it's very 1054 00:51:34,885 --> 00:51:35,365 interesting. 1055 00:51:35,365 --> 00:51:38,165 It's very unusual. But I really think that yeah. 1056 00:51:38,165 --> 00:51:41,210 Justin Jackson: I do think this is a key action that a lot of 1057 00:51:41,210 --> 00:51:45,690 founders don't take, which is you said, I'm going to get off 1058 00:51:45,690 --> 00:51:50,890 everything that's a distraction, and I'm gonna go where my 1059 00:51:50,890 --> 00:51:55,215 clients are. So LinkedIn is a natural choice. And then you're 1060 00:51:55,215 --> 00:51:58,815 also getting in these WhatsApp groups. Yeah. And I think when 1061 00:51:58,815 --> 00:52:02,895 you're thinking about where to invest your time, I don't think 1062 00:52:02,895 --> 00:52:09,370 people realize that in a given industry or category This is why 1063 00:52:09,370 --> 00:52:13,050 I think actual participants in a given industry or category have 1064 00:52:13,050 --> 00:52:15,850 such an advantage over somebody who's just flying in because it 1065 00:52:15,850 --> 00:52:19,050 looks like a good business opportunity, is you have to be 1066 00:52:19,050 --> 00:52:21,050 simmering in that community. 1067 00:52:21,050 --> 00:52:24,805 You have to be soaking in it. You have to be in the water 1068 00:52:24,805 --> 00:52:32,245 every day. And there are just things you can't experience. And 1069 00:52:32,245 --> 00:52:36,325 they're they're really subtle unless you have this constant 1070 00:52:36,325 --> 00:52:40,670 drip of being in a WhatsApp group every day and seeing what 1071 00:52:40,670 --> 00:52:42,590 people are talking about, and you're building those 1072 00:52:42,590 --> 00:52:46,910 relationships, and you're making these subconscious observations. 1073 00:52:48,190 --> 00:52:48,750 Harris Kenny: Yes. 1074 00:52:48,750 --> 00:52:53,585 Justin Jackson: Right. You're doing that, like, I think it's 1075 00:52:53,585 --> 00:52:58,785 pretty hard. I think it's hard to build a podcast hosting 1076 00:52:58,785 --> 00:53:02,465 application if you're not a podcaster. There's just 1077 00:53:02,465 --> 00:53:06,390 something about knowing the pain, about knowing lots of 1078 00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:09,350 other podcasters that are trying to do it too, of knowing what 1079 00:53:09,350 --> 00:53:13,990 it's like to to conceptualize a show, and then record into a 1080 00:53:13,990 --> 00:53:18,815 shitty mic, and then, you know, try to publish it and then be 1081 00:53:18,815 --> 00:53:21,375 listening to it and hearing background noise and like 1082 00:53:21,375 --> 00:53:27,775 cringing. That whole process, until you understand it in an 1083 00:53:27,775 --> 00:53:32,430 organic way like I could describe it to somebody, but 1084 00:53:32,430 --> 00:53:36,990 until you've experienced it, until you know the pain of 1085 00:53:36,990 --> 00:53:41,390 releasing something publicly and having people not respond to it 1086 00:53:41,390 --> 00:53:44,430 or trying to get distribution for it or trying to get people 1087 00:53:44,430 --> 00:53:46,945 to notice, you just don't understand. 1088 00:53:46,945 --> 00:53:52,465 And it's the same thing with outbound salespeople, outbound 1089 00:53:52,545 --> 00:53:57,025 leads people. Like, do I really understand that category as an 1090 00:53:57,025 --> 00:54:03,300 outsider? No. And so if I try to swoop in and and say, I'm gonna 1091 00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:06,260 compete with Harris, Justin Jackson tomorrow. I'm just gonna 1092 00:54:06,260 --> 00:54:07,380 start a new app. 1093 00:54:08,180 --> 00:54:13,905 I you have such an advantage over me. Even with ChatGPT, I 1094 00:54:13,905 --> 00:54:16,305 could get all the like intellectual information. Like, 1095 00:54:16,305 --> 00:54:19,585 tell me about the outbound world and it might be able to, you 1096 00:54:19,585 --> 00:54:23,025 know, even pull in stuff from Reddit and stuff and get it's 1097 00:54:23,025 --> 00:54:27,240 still not the same as being in the water, as surfing that spot 1098 00:54:27,240 --> 00:54:30,520 every single day, showing up with all the other surfers, 1099 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,960 looking at those waves, seeing the weather and how it rolls in. 1100 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:40,765 Like, nothing compares to being in it. And I I think it's 1101 00:54:40,765 --> 00:54:44,845 actually almost there are some entrepreneurs that have been 1102 00:54:44,845 --> 00:54:49,885 able to serve an audience or a category that is not their own. 1103 00:54:49,965 --> 00:54:54,010 I think it's exceedingly rare. And almost always there's some 1104 00:54:54,170 --> 00:54:58,170 venture funding in it where you have runway to really give 1105 00:54:58,170 --> 00:55:02,250 yourself a crash course in it. I think it's so tough. I think you 1106 00:55:02,250 --> 00:55:06,010 gotta be in it to really have an advantage, especially as a 1107 00:55:06,010 --> 00:55:06,650 bootstrapper. 1108 00:55:07,865 --> 00:55:10,745 Harris Kenny: Definitely. And so what's funny about where we are 1109 00:55:10,745 --> 00:55:14,985 today is that those two places I was spending my time represent, 1110 00:55:14,985 --> 00:55:17,705 like, the two parts of the business. Mhmm. I'll I'll we we 1111 00:55:17,705 --> 00:55:20,730 can cut we'll keep we'll keep riffing, but, like, the agencies 1112 00:55:20,730 --> 00:55:24,970 are not our direct customer today. But they're our peers and 1113 00:55:24,970 --> 00:55:27,050 they are the channel that we sell through, and I consider 1114 00:55:27,050 --> 00:55:27,770 them friends. 1115 00:55:27,770 --> 00:55:30,170 I mean, I've had agency partners who have gone through some 1116 00:55:30,170 --> 00:55:33,805 personal things and like, I've done, it doesn't matter with the 1117 00:55:33,805 --> 00:55:35,805 details, but, like, I've done personal gestures for them just 1118 00:55:35,805 --> 00:55:38,605 because, like Mhmm. I love them. I just like I love them. And if 1119 00:55:38,605 --> 00:55:41,325 they if they if some like, truly, I consider them, like, 1120 00:55:41,325 --> 00:55:42,525 comrades. Like Yeah. 1121 00:55:42,525 --> 00:55:44,765 And if they were here, if they were like, if someone needed 1122 00:55:44,765 --> 00:55:47,220 something, like, I would do something for them. And I have 1123 00:55:47,220 --> 00:55:49,060 done something for them. Not because it's like a marketing 1124 00:55:49,060 --> 00:55:51,700 thing, but because it's like, hey, man. Like, I love you. 1125 00:55:51,700 --> 00:55:53,380 We've been in this stuff together. 1126 00:55:53,460 --> 00:55:56,100 Like, we've written these ups and downs. Like, the Google shut 1127 00:55:56,100 --> 00:55:58,500 down all these things or Microsoft, you know, this 1128 00:55:57,735 --> 00:55:59,175 happened, whatever. And we've kind of been through these 1129 00:55:59,175 --> 00:56:01,975 experiences together. Yeah. You know, like that's real. 1130 00:56:01,975 --> 00:56:04,535 Those are real friendships and there's real trust that gets 1131 00:56:04,535 --> 00:56:07,015 built there over time. But the funny thing is that they are not 1132 00:56:07,015 --> 00:56:09,655 our direct customer. We still sell to the people who are on 1133 00:56:09,655 --> 00:56:12,800 LinkedIn. Ultimately, the bigger companies, that's where the 1134 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,680 revenue operations and the sales leaders are. But it's because I 1135 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,920 spent time with them and understood the space. 1136 00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:20,720 That was like a really and I'm still in those WhatsApp groups. 1137 00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:23,920 Like, I mean, I mostly I just use them, like, for joking 1138 00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:27,095 around. Yeah. Like, I don't be like, hey, everybody, we have a 1139 00:56:27,095 --> 00:56:30,535 webinar we're doing next week. I just like post memes and like 1140 00:56:30,535 --> 00:56:31,815 give people a hard time and stuff. 1141 00:56:31,815 --> 00:56:32,615 Justin Jackson: Yes. Yeah. 1142 00:56:32,615 --> 00:56:35,735 Harris Kenny: Yeah. You know, like, just to be like, that's 1143 00:56:35,735 --> 00:56:39,880 like my role in those communities. We have fun. We're 1144 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:40,360 having fun. 1145 00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,640 Justin Jackson: And again, hard to replicate that, to have that 1146 00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:49,080 kind of rapport with people in the industry. So we should 1147 00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,665 really paint a picture. So outbound sync, what does it do? 1148 00:56:52,665 --> 00:56:56,585 Like, what was what's the the job it's doing for people? 1149 00:56:56,585 --> 00:56:59,865 Harris Kenny: Yes. So the job to be done. So we get the data. So 1150 00:56:59,865 --> 00:57:02,185 we had this low code thing. People are interested. 1151 00:57:02,185 --> 00:57:04,585 I started having big calls with people. I realized this is not 1152 00:57:04,585 --> 00:57:08,100 gonna work. Like, I'm manually OAuth ing into accounts. People 1153 00:57:08,260 --> 00:57:10,980 someone just asked me about SOC two. We have a make scenario. 1154 00:57:10,980 --> 00:57:13,060 I'm like, SOC two? I don't know. Here's makes security 1155 00:57:13,060 --> 00:57:15,700 documentation. Yeah. We refactored into full code. 1156 00:57:15,780 --> 00:57:18,260 We go to market. Takes four months to build it, two months 1157 00:57:18,260 --> 00:57:22,215 to refactor it. October 2023, we go to market. And the like, the 1158 00:57:22,215 --> 00:57:27,255 job to be done is, okay, if you well, I started with if you're 1159 00:57:27,255 --> 00:57:30,295 using SmartLead Yeah. And you use HubSpot, we get your data 1160 00:57:30,295 --> 00:57:31,575 from SmartLead into HubSpot. 1161 00:57:31,575 --> 00:57:34,240 Okay. That was like that was it. It was like simple enough if 1162 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,200 you're using these two tools. But today, if you it's kind of 1163 00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,400 inverted. I would I consider us a HubSpot app or a Salesforce 1164 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:40,800 app. 1165 00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:47,315 If you're a a team using HubSpot and you're doing outbound, well 1166 00:57:47,315 --> 00:57:49,075 then if you're using these tools, we can bring your data 1167 00:57:49,075 --> 00:57:51,235 back into HubSpot. Like fundamentally, we're a HubSpot 1168 00:57:51,235 --> 00:57:54,595 app. We get this data in, and then as a HubSpot app or a 1169 00:57:54,595 --> 00:57:58,515 Salesforce app, we get the data in job one. Job two is make the 1170 00:57:58,515 --> 00:58:00,755 data useful. So like I got a lead. 1171 00:58:01,190 --> 00:58:03,990 Now I can route that lead to the right salesperson based on their 1172 00:58:03,990 --> 00:58:05,670 territory or whatever the rules are. 1173 00:58:05,670 --> 00:58:06,390 Justin Jackson: Okay. 1174 00:58:06,390 --> 00:58:08,710 Harris Kenny: I can give them the context of that full thread 1175 00:58:08,710 --> 00:58:09,750 of a conversation. 1176 00:58:10,070 --> 00:58:10,310 Justin Jackson: Got 1177 00:58:10,310 --> 00:58:13,190 Harris Kenny: it. I can see all the sent emails before that. So 1178 00:58:13,190 --> 00:58:17,345 like reply routing. Because like growth hackers were doing this 1179 00:58:17,345 --> 00:58:19,985 in the beginning. So they would be like to their founder led 1180 00:58:20,385 --> 00:58:22,465 customer, here's a Slack message. 1181 00:58:22,465 --> 00:58:24,145 And the founder would be like, great, I'll jump on a call, 1182 00:58:24,145 --> 00:58:27,265 done. But now if it's like we have mid market customers with 1183 00:58:27,265 --> 00:58:30,800 1,500 employees, they need to route it to the right person, 1184 00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:33,200 that rep needs context, they need to know what the campaign 1185 00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:37,680 was. There's like so many more rules that are not possible the 1186 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:39,600 way it was being done before. Interesting. Routing the 1187 00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:41,520 replies, that's like a huge pain point for the sales So this is 1188 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:42,400 like a 1189 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,625 Justin Jackson: fire hose of leads. Yes. And then your app 1190 00:58:45,625 --> 00:58:48,905 just says, okay, I've got to get these leads to the right people 1191 00:58:48,905 --> 00:58:51,865 in the organization Yep. With the right context, with the 1192 00:58:51,865 --> 00:58:52,905 right information. 1193 00:58:53,065 --> 00:58:53,545 Harris Kenny: Exactly. 1194 00:58:53,545 --> 00:58:53,945 Justin Jackson: Got it. 1195 00:58:53,945 --> 00:58:56,505 Harris Kenny: And we empower the internal revenue op revenue 1196 00:58:56,505 --> 00:59:00,110 operations or HubSpot or Salesforce admin to build the 1197 00:59:00,110 --> 00:59:03,630 rules for that routing or the like channeling the Firehose. We 1198 00:59:03,630 --> 00:59:06,430 allow them to build it themselves inside of HubSpot and 1199 00:59:06,430 --> 00:59:06,990 Salesforce. 1200 00:59:06,990 --> 00:59:07,710 Justin Jackson: Got it. 1201 00:59:07,790 --> 00:59:09,790 Harris Kenny: So I, like, sort of finally came to grips with, 1202 00:59:09,790 --> 00:59:11,950 I'm gonna not gonna try to make people log in to anything 1203 00:59:12,315 --> 00:59:14,475 Justin Jackson: Yes. You went to where they already are. 1204 00:59:14,475 --> 00:59:16,635 Harris Kenny: Yeah. You wanna be in HubSpot. I'm gonna give you 1205 00:59:16,635 --> 00:59:19,355 this data in HubSpot. You don't need to log in. You would log in 1206 00:59:19,355 --> 00:59:21,355 to our application one time, and then you're never able to look 1207 00:59:21,355 --> 00:59:22,075 at it again. 1208 00:59:22,075 --> 00:59:23,675 Yeah. We we build pipes. 1209 00:59:23,915 --> 00:59:24,235 Justin Jackson: Got it. 1210 00:59:24,650 --> 00:59:26,410 Harris Kenny: Like, just use the sink. Don't worry about where 1211 00:59:26,410 --> 00:59:27,210 the water's coming from. 1212 00:59:27,210 --> 00:59:30,010 Justin Jackson: And does it show up in HubSpot and Salesforce as 1213 00:59:30,010 --> 00:59:31,370 an official app? 1214 00:59:31,450 --> 00:59:34,090 Harris Kenny: Yes. So we're we're in the marketplace in 1215 00:59:34,090 --> 00:59:38,055 HubSpot and we're working on Salesforce app exchange. That's 1216 00:59:38,055 --> 00:59:41,175 like more of a process. But the biggest surprise learning I had 1217 00:59:41,175 --> 00:59:43,015 in the beginning was that you actually don't need to be in the 1218 00:59:43,015 --> 00:59:46,855 marketplace to get distribution through them. So when we talk 1219 00:59:46,855 --> 00:59:50,760 about building a SaaS or starting a SaaS, we had dozens 1220 00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,640 and dozens of HubSpot customers before we had a marketplace 1221 00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:54,200 listing. 1222 00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:54,600 Justin Jackson: Okay. 1223 00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,480 Harris Kenny: So it's because I was able to get HubSpot, I 1224 00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:59,880 posted on LinkedIn and HubSpot users were like, we're using 1225 00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:01,960 Smart Lead, I want that in HubSpot. And they just reach out 1226 01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:02,440 to me. 1227 01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:03,080 Justin Jackson: Got it. 1228 01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:04,465 Harris Kenny: And they would install it as a private 1229 01:00:04,465 --> 01:00:06,705 connected app. So I was not using HubSpot as a direct 1230 01:00:06,705 --> 01:00:09,105 distribution channel, if that makes sense. I was riding the 1231 01:00:09,105 --> 01:00:13,105 HubSpot wave, but HubSpot wasn't putting me on the board. Do you 1232 01:00:13,105 --> 01:00:13,585 know what I mean? 1233 01:00:13,585 --> 01:00:15,825 Justin Jackson: So if you posted on LinkedIn and said, you know, 1234 01:00:15,825 --> 01:00:19,480 if you have this problem and you use HubSpot, here's a solution. 1235 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:23,160 And so people that were using HubSpot, it was enough for them 1236 01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,480 to go, oh, I use HubSpot and then go, oh, I have that 1237 01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,760 problem. Exactly. Okay. Now I'm gonna pursue the solution. 1238 01:00:28,760 --> 01:00:30,520 Harris Kenny: Exactly. Because they weren't even thinking to 1239 01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,000 search for it in the marketplace because no HubSpot so few 1240 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:34,575 HubSpot teams were even using these tools. 1241 01:00:34,575 --> 01:00:34,815 Justin Jackson: Yeah. 1242 01:00:34,815 --> 01:00:37,295 Harris Kenny: So there was no like search discovery motion. 1243 01:00:37,535 --> 01:00:40,895 The place that at this time, like even still, people are 1244 01:00:40,895 --> 01:00:43,215 learning about these new cutting edge things in Slack and on 1245 01:00:43,215 --> 01:00:49,180 LinkedIn. There's no like, hey, we need to go buy a digital 1246 01:00:49,180 --> 01:00:53,660 sales room tool or we need to go buy a landing page tool, go 1247 01:00:53,660 --> 01:00:55,660 search in the HubSpot marketplace and see what's 1248 01:00:55,660 --> 01:00:57,340 available. Like that wasn't a thing. 1249 01:00:57,340 --> 01:00:57,660 Justin Jackson: Got it. 1250 01:00:57,660 --> 01:00:57,900 Harris Kenny: You know? 1251 01:00:58,715 --> 01:00:59,195 Justin Jackson: Got it. 1252 01:00:59,195 --> 01:01:01,195 Harris Kenny: For more like there is for more established 1253 01:01:01,195 --> 01:01:01,995 categories. 1254 01:01:01,995 --> 01:01:05,275 Justin Jackson: So wow. This is interesting. So so you launched 1255 01:01:05,275 --> 01:01:09,915 this thing and you're primarily getting customers through 1256 01:01:09,915 --> 01:01:11,980 LinkedIn and relationships? Is that 1257 01:01:12,140 --> 01:01:14,460 Harris Kenny: Well, initially, because I still have my agency, 1258 01:01:14,460 --> 01:01:17,420 all the revenue came from my clients. And once again, I I 1259 01:01:17,420 --> 01:01:20,700 forced tried to bundle them, but this time it worked. Yeah. I 1260 01:01:20,700 --> 01:01:22,300 said, listen. I run an agency. 1261 01:01:22,940 --> 01:01:26,305 We specialize in helping teams that use HubSpot get new leads, 1262 01:01:26,305 --> 01:01:29,505 and we have this tool to get give you those leads. It's 1263 01:01:29,505 --> 01:01:31,345 called outbound sync. And they're like, yeah, sure. We 1264 01:01:31,345 --> 01:01:33,585 need leads. If you get in HubSpot, great. 1265 01:01:33,585 --> 01:01:35,665 That's we want them there. We really want the leads, but we 1266 01:01:35,665 --> 01:01:38,065 also do want them in HubSpot. And that was my first few 1267 01:01:38,065 --> 01:01:41,040 customers. That was all my initial MRR because of that. And 1268 01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:43,520 then when I started to get people come in and say, hey, 1269 01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:45,520 man, your agent looks great, but like, I just see the app. 1270 01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:49,440 That's when I was like, I have a SaaS. Like, not like a software 1271 01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,960 I don't have a SaaS company, but I have a SaaS because someone is 1272 01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:58,215 paying me only for this Heroku app that we built, you know, 1273 01:01:58,215 --> 01:02:01,095 that I built with the developer. So that was like the beginning 1274 01:02:01,095 --> 01:02:03,975 of of the beginning of that. And so we were only selling direct 1275 01:02:03,975 --> 01:02:06,215 for a while. So people would find us directly, and then 1276 01:02:06,215 --> 01:02:09,690 eventually I wound down my agency, And then it was like all 1277 01:02:09,690 --> 01:02:11,450 software revenue after that. 1278 01:02:11,450 --> 01:02:13,530 Justin Jackson: Yeah. And you shared your graph with me. Yeah. 1279 01:02:13,530 --> 01:02:19,290 It it it's pretty like it's like 15% a month, you'd say, in terms 1280 01:02:19,290 --> 01:02:19,930 of growth. Let me 1281 01:02:19,930 --> 01:02:21,850 Harris Kenny: see if I can I can share one? We're not like doing 1282 01:02:21,850 --> 01:02:23,845 the build in public thing with numbers, but I can share my 1283 01:02:23,845 --> 01:02:25,445 screen without the Numbers. 1284 01:02:25,445 --> 01:02:27,285 Justin Jackson: Sure, There's a little share button down there. 1285 01:02:27,285 --> 01:02:28,085 You should be able to use that. 1286 01:02:28,085 --> 01:02:29,845 Harris Kenny: Yeah. So this is like the transition. I've not 1287 01:02:29,845 --> 01:02:32,405 talked about this with anybody anywhere yet. Nobody's asked. 1288 01:02:33,605 --> 01:02:37,285 This is the journey from services revenue to software. 1289 01:02:37,770 --> 01:02:40,890 So purple is my services or consulting revenue and green is 1290 01:02:40,890 --> 01:02:45,530 my SaaS. This is gross top line, you know, money made. And so if 1291 01:02:45,530 --> 01:02:47,930 you're just listening, I mean, it's pretty much a cross fade. I 1292 01:02:47,930 --> 01:02:49,770 mean, you've got you can describe it probably better than 1293 01:02:49,770 --> 01:02:52,235 me, but, yeah, I mean, this is kind of this has been the 1294 01:02:52,235 --> 01:02:52,555 journey. 1295 01:02:52,555 --> 01:02:56,955 Justin Jackson: Yeah. On one hand, so starting in 2023, most 1296 01:02:56,955 --> 01:03:01,995 of your revenue is consulting. And then you see around well, I 1297 01:03:01,995 --> 01:03:05,750 guess this would be just at the end of 2023, you start to get 1298 01:03:05,750 --> 01:03:09,670 software revenue. And then the software revenue just grows 1299 01:03:09,910 --> 01:03:14,550 every single month. And then gradually, the consulting 1300 01:03:14,550 --> 01:03:16,790 revenue well, not gradually, actually, it comes off, you 1301 01:03:16,790 --> 01:03:19,695 know, you can see the transition point where you're just like, 1302 01:03:19,695 --> 01:03:22,015 oh, it's time to switch to yeah. 1303 01:03:22,175 --> 01:03:24,575 We don't have to share the numbers, but, like, you're doing 1304 01:03:24,575 --> 01:03:28,815 well. Like, this is you've done it. Right? 1305 01:03:28,815 --> 01:03:31,070 Harris Kenny: Thanks, man. Yeah. For sure. I I feel like we're 1306 01:03:31,070 --> 01:03:34,190 we're there. I mean, I'll tell you this transition point, May 1307 01:03:34,190 --> 01:03:34,910 2024. 1308 01:03:34,910 --> 01:03:38,430 So friend of the pod, friend of so many people, Ruben Mhmm. 1309 01:03:38,510 --> 01:03:42,925 Gomes. When things were taking off, I I emailed Ruben and I was 1310 01:03:42,925 --> 01:03:45,325 like, hey, I think things are going pretty well. Like, tell me 1311 01:03:45,325 --> 01:03:47,485 about TinySeed. Like, I've got this agency. 1312 01:03:47,485 --> 01:03:50,685 I have these expenses. Like, we have childcare costs. I have a 1313 01:03:50,685 --> 01:03:53,885 mortgage. We have two cars. Like, my I mean, my wife works 1314 01:03:53,885 --> 01:03:54,205 in health care. 1315 01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:56,920 Got a great job and she's making money, but we just have a lot of 1316 01:03:56,920 --> 01:04:00,520 combined income and I can't not make money. Yeah. What if this 1317 01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:04,200 keeps going well? And then like a month later I was like, Oh my 1318 01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:07,640 God, I need help. Like I'm having calls with people that 1319 01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:11,235 are way better prospects than I've ever had before, asking 1320 01:04:11,235 --> 01:04:14,195 questions that I am not at all equipped to answer and I don't 1321 01:04:14,195 --> 01:04:15,235 have time to answer. 1322 01:04:15,235 --> 01:04:17,795 And the hardest thing that I don't think people, unless 1323 01:04:17,795 --> 01:04:21,710 you've been in it, it's really hard to explain, is that, like, 1324 01:04:21,710 --> 01:04:24,590 if you have a multi thousand dollar a month retainer client, 1325 01:04:24,830 --> 01:04:27,070 and then you have, like, a multi $100 a month SaaS client 1326 01:04:27,310 --> 01:04:27,710 Justin Jackson: Mhmm. 1327 01:04:27,710 --> 01:04:30,430 Harris Kenny: How do you balance tasks between those two things? 1328 01:04:30,670 --> 01:04:34,750 Like, it's different. The math does math. Like Mhmm. One, this 1329 01:04:34,750 --> 01:04:38,285 this pays my mortgage, but this one is is valued at the top 1330 01:04:38,285 --> 01:04:38,685 line. 1331 01:04:38,685 --> 01:04:41,165 The other know, my services are valued at bottom line, like, 1332 01:04:41,165 --> 01:04:43,325 EBITDA or whatever, like, how much profit they're generating. 1333 01:04:43,405 --> 01:04:46,205 The software is is valued on paper at the top line of how 1334 01:04:46,205 --> 01:04:48,125 much the MRR is or ARR is. 1335 01:04:48,125 --> 01:04:48,285 Justin Jackson: Yeah. 1336 01:04:48,830 --> 01:04:50,590 Harris Kenny: But like but like, this isn't a lot of money, that 1337 01:04:50,590 --> 01:04:53,230 is a lot of money, but this is technically worth more. And then 1338 01:04:53,230 --> 01:04:55,630 like, this is a little fix, but it's just a little bug. And this 1339 01:04:55,630 --> 01:04:57,390 is like something where if I don't get back to them, they'll 1340 01:04:57,390 --> 01:05:00,910 fire me right away. Yeah. And and so, like, it's literally 1341 01:05:01,135 --> 01:05:05,055 it's impossible to decide what to do Mhmm. 1342 01:05:05,055 --> 01:05:09,055 At any given moment. Yeah. Because the comparison is it's 1343 01:05:09,055 --> 01:05:12,815 it's apples and oranges. Yeah. And so that was like the appeal. 1344 01:05:12,815 --> 01:05:15,375 So so I kinda so I kinda started kinda coming back into like, oh, 1345 01:05:15,375 --> 01:05:19,360 yeah. TinySeed. Oh yeah, like there's a thing for this. And so 1346 01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:22,240 we ended up throwing our hat in and getting into TinySeed and I 1347 01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:25,200 made the decision to shut down my agency, even though at the 1348 01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:31,875 time my SaaS revenue was 20% of what my services revenue was. 1349 01:05:31,875 --> 01:05:32,355 Justin Jackson: Yeah. I 1350 01:05:32,355 --> 01:05:34,995 Harris Kenny: felt like the momentum was just like sort of 1351 01:05:34,995 --> 01:05:40,515 undeniable, but I couldn't. I needed a bridge. Yeah. I just, I 1352 01:05:40,515 --> 01:05:46,250 couldn't get it to grow fast enough to pay my bills. And I 1353 01:05:46,250 --> 01:05:47,450 didn't know what I was doing. 1354 01:05:47,450 --> 01:05:50,890 I had never gotten this level of success before. And so I didn't 1355 01:05:50,890 --> 01:05:54,650 know how to like the learning I had done in the beginning, it 1356 01:05:54,650 --> 01:05:57,210 got me here. And then all of a sudden I like slammed into a 1357 01:05:57,210 --> 01:05:59,130 ceiling of like, I don't know what to do. I don't even know 1358 01:05:59,130 --> 01:06:00,595 who to ask for help. Yeah. 1359 01:06:00,595 --> 01:06:03,795 I don't I don't know, like, what should I be prioritizing right 1360 01:06:03,795 --> 01:06:06,515 now? And so for us, like, that was like a godsend of like, 1361 01:06:06,515 --> 01:06:09,955 okay, this will allow me to bridge the gap. Yeah. And and 1362 01:06:09,955 --> 01:06:12,355 then hopefully it works. If it doesn't work, that's really 1363 01:06:12,355 --> 01:06:15,280 stressful because I just shut down this thing that that has 1364 01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:19,680 been paying my bills since 2019 and has been my, like, my 1365 01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:20,560 lifeline. 1366 01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:23,280 And now I'm committing to this. I switched I mean, this is like 1367 01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:25,680 a little detail, but it was an LLC. So I was able to do owner 1368 01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:27,520 draws, it was very tax advantaged. And now I'm 1369 01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,635 switching to a c corp where I can't pull money out of the 1370 01:06:30,635 --> 01:06:34,395 business. And, like, I I can't do the I don't have the 1371 01:06:34,395 --> 01:06:35,515 flexibility that I had before. 1372 01:06:35,515 --> 01:06:39,275 So all of a sudden, was like, this business has to work. And 1373 01:06:39,275 --> 01:06:42,560 so it was a really but it felt like, again, like I didn't have 1374 01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:45,120 a choice. Like, it felt like this is so obviously a better 1375 01:06:45,120 --> 01:06:48,240 choice that even though it's a hard one, it's the right one. 1376 01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:50,560 And and so that turned out to be the case, 1377 01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:51,920 Justin Jackson: think. I've never heard anyone describe 1378 01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:55,680 using TinySeed as a bridge before. So you've got this, 1379 01:06:55,680 --> 01:07:00,105 like, clear momentum with the SaaS. It's growing month over 1380 01:07:00,105 --> 01:07:04,985 month. But in order to transition from consulting to 1381 01:07:04,985 --> 01:07:07,625 this new thing, you need something to bridge the gap. 1382 01:07:07,705 --> 01:07:11,650 And in it sounds like in your case, that was both money, but 1383 01:07:11,650 --> 01:07:16,290 also just having more people in your court that could help you, 1384 01:07:16,370 --> 01:07:18,850 could help strategize, could help make decisions. 1385 01:07:19,250 --> 01:07:20,290 Harris Kenny: Both. Definitely. 1386 01:07:20,290 --> 01:07:22,850 Justin Jackson: Yeah. Did you use the money for hiring? Like 1387 01:07:23,010 --> 01:07:24,770 or was it just as runway for yourself? 1388 01:07:25,135 --> 01:07:27,695 Harris Kenny: Yeah. All all three. So I use it a little bit 1389 01:07:27,695 --> 01:07:31,855 runway for myself. I brought on CSM. I brought brought our 1390 01:07:31,855 --> 01:07:33,135 engineer on full time. 1391 01:07:33,215 --> 01:07:34,175 Justin Jackson: What's a CSM? 1392 01:07:34,175 --> 01:07:35,535 Harris Kenny: Oh, sorry. Customer Success Success 1393 01:07:35,535 --> 01:07:36,255 Manager. 1394 01:07:36,335 --> 01:07:36,815 Justin Jackson: Oh, okay. 1395 01:07:36,815 --> 01:07:39,295 Harris Kenny: And then engineer on full time. And then we also 1396 01:07:39,295 --> 01:07:44,810 got SOC two. Which was totally worth it. But just like upfront 1397 01:07:44,810 --> 01:07:49,370 capital intensive things, the other thing that happened is at 1398 01:07:49,370 --> 01:07:52,410 the tiny seed, when the founders all met up, I had all of a 1399 01:07:52,410 --> 01:07:55,130 sudden agencies started texting me and they're like, Hey dude, 1400 01:07:55,130 --> 01:07:57,175 heard you're winding down. I've always been curious about 1401 01:07:57,175 --> 01:07:57,815 outbound sync. 1402 01:07:57,815 --> 01:08:00,775 I actually have a client that needs this. And it was because I 1403 01:08:00,775 --> 01:08:03,095 shut down my agency, I think they felt a lot more comfortable 1404 01:08:03,095 --> 01:08:06,535 working with me. Yeah. And so I set up our partner program May 1405 01:08:06,535 --> 01:08:09,580 when we joined Tiny Seed, and now it's like 80% of our 1406 01:08:09,580 --> 01:08:09,980 business. 1407 01:08:09,980 --> 01:08:13,420 Justin Jackson: 80% of like revenue leads? Oh, wow. 1408 01:08:13,580 --> 01:08:16,860 Harris Kenny: Yeah. So now, like, so agencies who I've been 1409 01:08:16,860 --> 01:08:18,540 friends with this whole time and I've always been like sharing 1410 01:08:18,540 --> 01:08:21,180 notes with them. Yeah. Now they have clients who come in and 1411 01:08:21,180 --> 01:08:24,605 they say, listen, we're a 1,500 employee company, series d 1412 01:08:24,605 --> 01:08:25,885 company. We have money. 1413 01:08:25,965 --> 01:08:29,245 Yeah. We have people, not the problem. We just need the best. 1414 01:08:29,245 --> 01:08:31,885 We need someone who's willing to take chances and do really 1415 01:08:31,885 --> 01:08:33,965 interesting things. And like that's what agencies are for. 1416 01:08:33,965 --> 01:08:37,810 Yeah. Even like Nike works at agencies, right? Famously. So 1417 01:08:37,810 --> 01:08:42,530 they but they say, but we use Salesforce. And so we need this 1418 01:08:42,530 --> 01:08:42,770 data. 1419 01:08:42,770 --> 01:08:44,690 We need it in Salesforce. We need to be able to attribute it, 1420 01:08:44,690 --> 01:08:49,490 and it needs to be compliant. And so that's what we solve. We 1421 01:08:49,490 --> 01:08:52,450 solve all of those problems, and we let these really brilliant 1422 01:08:52,775 --> 01:08:56,215 growth hackers do their thing and then we connect them to the 1423 01:08:56,215 --> 01:08:59,334 people who have the willingness to pay and the desire to pay, 1424 01:08:59,415 --> 01:09:02,215 but have rules that need to be followed. And so that has become 1425 01:09:02,215 --> 01:09:04,695 this huge flywheel for us and we're helping them grow. 1426 01:09:04,695 --> 01:09:06,730 We're helping them move up market because they're getting 1427 01:09:06,730 --> 01:09:08,810 bigger and better customers because they can tell these 1428 01:09:08,810 --> 01:09:09,450 stories. 1429 01:09:09,450 --> 01:09:12,410 Justin Jackson: I see. So this is not like a a a standard, 1430 01:09:12,410 --> 01:09:16,250 like, affiliate program. This is Mm-mm. A program a partner's 1431 01:09:16,250 --> 01:09:20,330 program where you are giving the partner's leads. 1432 01:09:20,490 --> 01:09:23,645 Harris Kenny: They bring them to us. We refer some. I've inferred 1433 01:09:23,805 --> 01:09:26,125 I I I referred Anthropic, so that's a pretty good one. 1434 01:09:26,125 --> 01:09:26,445 Justin Jackson: Oh, 1435 01:09:26,445 --> 01:09:28,685 Harris Kenny: yeah. But we don't have a ton of leads. They bring 1436 01:09:28,685 --> 01:09:32,285 them into us generally. But what we bring is we bring the tool 1437 01:09:32,285 --> 01:09:34,605 and then we bring a lot of support. So we set up a Slack 1438 01:09:34,605 --> 01:09:37,245 connect channel with them and with their customer, and our CSM 1439 01:09:37,245 --> 01:09:37,890 is in there. 1440 01:09:37,890 --> 01:09:40,690 And so our customer success manager is in there. So if they 1441 01:09:40,690 --> 01:09:43,890 have CRM questions, if they need to get in the weeds, we say, 1442 01:09:43,890 --> 01:09:47,410 hey, we will help think through this with your customer so that 1443 01:09:47,410 --> 01:09:50,305 you can do the thing that you're good at. You are not a 1444 01:09:50,305 --> 01:09:51,345 Salesforce admin. 1445 01:09:51,345 --> 01:09:52,065 Justin Jackson: Yes. Got it. 1446 01:09:52,305 --> 01:09:54,145 Harris Kenny: Understand how to sift through signals and how to 1447 01:09:54,145 --> 01:09:57,105 get the right people, we'll make sure that it's a lead in 1448 01:09:57,105 --> 01:09:59,585 Salesforce with the right fields populated, created at the right 1449 01:09:59,585 --> 01:10:01,585 time Yeah. Assigned to the right person kind of thing. 1450 01:10:01,585 --> 01:10:05,790 Justin Jackson: So for your partners, you are enabling a 1451 01:10:05,790 --> 01:10:09,950 whole new category of business for them. Yes. And giving them a 1452 01:10:09,950 --> 01:10:14,270 superpower when they have a new client, they can they're like, 1453 01:10:14,270 --> 01:10:17,230 oh, wow. I can use outbound sync for this. Outbound sync is gonna 1454 01:10:17,230 --> 01:10:22,565 provide me with all the support and the tooling to do this job 1455 01:10:22,565 --> 01:10:25,365 that might be too big for them to do normally or or whatever. 1456 01:10:25,365 --> 01:10:27,525 Harris Kenny: Yeah. It's just hard. It's just it's just it is 1457 01:10:27,525 --> 01:10:30,485 a software required. The only way to do this is is with 1458 01:10:30,485 --> 01:10:31,205 software. Yeah. 1459 01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:34,400 The funny thing is that these people are like they have their 1460 01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:36,960 own, like, dev resources typically. They have tons of 1461 01:10:36,960 --> 01:10:39,920 really sophisticated internal tooling. It's just, like, hard 1462 01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:43,360 enough and enough of a headache that that I that there's enough 1463 01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:44,560 of an opportunity for us to build 1464 01:10:44,925 --> 01:10:47,645 Justin Jackson: Yeah. To to for you to for them to outsource it 1465 01:10:47,645 --> 01:10:47,965 to you. 1466 01:10:47,965 --> 01:10:50,045 Harris Kenny: And they're happy to, by the way. Like, I've had 1467 01:10:50,045 --> 01:10:52,605 people tell me, like, dude, I'm spending I've got a bunch of 1468 01:10:52,605 --> 01:10:55,165 vendors who are spending a bunch money. App on Sync is the only 1469 01:10:55,165 --> 01:10:57,245 one that I'm not even I don't even feel like negotiating with 1470 01:10:57,245 --> 01:11:00,350 you because I don't ever wanna think about Salesforce. 1471 01:11:00,350 --> 01:11:03,470 Justin Jackson: I mean, that's a great signal. Yeah. I mean, 1472 01:11:03,550 --> 01:11:05,870 that's the whole beauty about SaaS is you're basically 1473 01:11:05,870 --> 01:11:11,230 socializing the cost of software, but also support 1474 01:11:11,630 --> 01:11:16,735 across thousands of customers. Exactly. And so, you know, I'm 1475 01:11:16,735 --> 01:11:17,775 looking at your pricing right now. 1476 01:11:17,775 --> 01:11:22,575 It starts at $99 and it goes up from there. $2.49, $4.99, and 1477 01:11:22,575 --> 01:11:27,230 then enterprise. So that's a pretty good deal. For $4.99, 1478 01:11:27,230 --> 01:11:29,390 you're getting email and Slack support. 1479 01:11:29,390 --> 01:11:31,870 Harris Kenny: I think we go over the top with support. Yeah. I 1480 01:11:31,870 --> 01:11:33,950 think if someone if I you know, if someone were to come in 1481 01:11:33,950 --> 01:11:35,710 today, they would be like, you gotta dial that back. 1482 01:11:35,710 --> 01:11:38,590 Justin Jackson: Yeah. I I I mean, I think we go over the top 1483 01:11:38,590 --> 01:11:39,870 with support at Transistor too. 1484 01:11:39,870 --> 01:11:41,470 Harris Kenny: I been a Transistor customer. I agree. 1485 01:11:41,470 --> 01:11:43,365 And it was awesome. And I, like, I loved the experience. 1486 01:11:43,365 --> 01:11:45,605 Justin Jackson: I think that's just like again, it's one of 1487 01:11:45,605 --> 01:11:51,045 those things where if the whole world is going to AI chatbots 1488 01:11:51,045 --> 01:11:56,430 and support docs and or, you know, poorly paid customer 1489 01:11:56,430 --> 01:12:00,270 support people that aren't professionals, then what's one 1490 01:12:00,270 --> 01:12:05,070 way to stand out? It's it's having unbelievable customer 1491 01:12:05,070 --> 01:12:08,590 support. And it takes less people than, you know, to 1492 01:12:08,590 --> 01:12:14,125 support 36,000 users on Transistor, which is probably, I 1493 01:12:14,125 --> 01:12:18,685 don't know, 8,000 paying accounts. That's two full time 1494 01:12:18,685 --> 01:12:23,340 people to do that. So it's an investment, but it's less people 1495 01:12:23,340 --> 01:12:26,140 than you might think to do that work. 1496 01:12:26,140 --> 01:12:28,620 Harris Kenny: Well and people remember, you know, and then you 1497 01:12:28,620 --> 01:12:31,580 get better feedback. The AI support thing, I've had such 1498 01:12:31,580 --> 01:12:33,740 negative experiences with that. And the thing is, like, because 1499 01:12:33,740 --> 01:12:36,015 we have ears to the ground, like, we're able to ship better 1500 01:12:36,015 --> 01:12:38,735 features. Mhmm. And it's I don't know. 1501 01:12:38,735 --> 01:12:40,895 Justin Jackson: Oh, To me, it's That's the other thing is that, 1502 01:12:40,895 --> 01:12:43,295 you know, AI might answer people's questions, and then it 1503 01:12:43,295 --> 01:12:46,975 might give you analytics on the most you know? But it can't see 1504 01:12:46,975 --> 01:12:51,280 the subtext. It can't observe things. It can't make notes and 1505 01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:56,720 say, oh, man. Like, I can really dig in here and see what is 1506 01:12:56,720 --> 01:13:00,160 causing what's motivating this customer and then also what's 1507 01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:00,960 causing their problem. 1508 01:13:01,715 --> 01:13:06,755 And those are opportunities. And if your job as an entrepreneur 1509 01:13:06,755 --> 01:13:12,835 or a founder is to correctly identify opportunities, like 1510 01:13:12,835 --> 01:13:16,680 that's your whole job. And it's like, what are the resources I 1511 01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,160 used to do that? Well, part of it is these back channels, these 1512 01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:21,720 WhatsApp groups and Slack channels and all that stuff. 1513 01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:24,920 Part of it is me having an audience on LinkedIn and 1514 01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:26,520 watching what's going on there. 1515 01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:32,505 And a big part of it is observing real customers. And 1516 01:13:32,505 --> 01:13:35,305 instead of just answering their question and moving on, just 1517 01:13:35,305 --> 01:13:38,665 taking a break and pause. Hey, let me dig into this with you a 1518 01:13:38,665 --> 01:13:41,625 bit. Like, can we jump on a call and talk about that? Can I just 1519 01:13:41,625 --> 01:13:42,585 ask you some more questions? 1520 01:13:43,540 --> 01:13:48,900 Very few people are willing to ask one follow-up question. I 1521 01:13:48,900 --> 01:13:52,020 think we need to be asking two or three or four follow-up 1522 01:13:52,020 --> 01:13:56,100 questions. That's where you kind of really dig into things. And 1523 01:13:56,180 --> 01:13:58,500 the, you know, AI just wants to move on. 1524 01:13:59,485 --> 01:14:01,645 Harris Kenny: Right. Resolved. Anything else? 1525 01:14:01,645 --> 01:14:03,965 Justin Jackson: Yep. And our propensity as humans is to wanna 1526 01:14:03,965 --> 01:14:08,685 move on. But the founder's job is to say, let's slow this down. 1527 01:14:10,045 --> 01:14:11,645 Hey. Tell me more about that. 1528 01:14:11,645 --> 01:14:14,525 Like, what's going on there? What are you using right now? 1529 01:14:14,525 --> 01:14:19,150 Okay. And is there like, you're paying for that. Okay. 1530 01:14:19,790 --> 01:14:23,950 Is it working for you? What's working? What's not? That's the 1531 01:14:23,950 --> 01:14:25,230 magic right there. 1532 01:14:25,550 --> 01:14:28,910 Harris Kenny: Yeah. I mean, I totally I mean, I totally agree. 1533 01:14:32,235 --> 01:14:36,395 So, yeah, I mean, for us, that's super important and we we're 1534 01:14:36,555 --> 01:14:40,155 yeah. We're we're in this funny spot where, like, all the time 1535 01:14:40,155 --> 01:14:42,555 people are like, why can't I just do this with Zapier? I 1536 01:14:42,555 --> 01:14:45,340 think it's like a really good bootstrap business opportunity. 1537 01:14:45,340 --> 01:14:47,740 I don't I don't think it's a venture scale business, but it's 1538 01:14:47,740 --> 01:14:50,540 like TinySteep is willing to take a chance on it. And like, 1539 01:14:50,540 --> 01:14:53,580 we I needed that bridge and there's just no way I could have 1540 01:14:53,580 --> 01:14:56,460 done otherwise. I mean, that those like, couple months where 1541 01:14:56,460 --> 01:15:01,215 I was doing both was by far the hardest period of the last six 1542 01:15:01,215 --> 01:15:03,055 years. Yeah. By far. 1543 01:15:03,055 --> 01:15:05,535 I I remember I was on a call with a guy, he was in Poland. We 1544 01:15:05,535 --> 01:15:06,975 were on a call at three a. M. 1545 01:15:06,975 --> 01:15:07,295 Justin Jackson: Yeah. 1546 01:15:07,295 --> 01:15:09,295 Harris Kenny: He's like, Dude, what time is it? I'm like, Oh, 1547 01:15:09,295 --> 01:15:11,375 it doesn't matter. Like, can you just tell me if this is working 1548 01:15:11,375 --> 01:15:11,695 yet? 1549 01:15:11,695 --> 01:15:11,935 Justin Jackson: Yeah. 1550 01:15:11,935 --> 01:15:17,870 Harris Kenny: Like, it was was excruciatingly painful. You 1551 01:15:17,870 --> 01:15:19,870 know, we went through some family medical stuff in between, 1552 01:15:19,870 --> 01:15:21,630 which I don't really talk about publicly, but it was 1553 01:15:21,630 --> 01:15:25,630 extraordinarily difficult. And we've like subsequently had a 1554 01:15:25,630 --> 01:15:29,025 second child. And so it's like, life just is happening. While 1555 01:15:29,025 --> 01:15:30,545 all of this is happening too. 1556 01:15:30,545 --> 01:15:32,545 But yeah, there's lot of reasons why this is a weirdly cool 1557 01:15:32,545 --> 01:15:34,465 opportunity. We're sitting between a few things. There's 1558 01:15:34,465 --> 01:15:36,945 lot of reasons why people think Zapr could do it, or Make could 1559 01:15:36,945 --> 01:15:39,745 do it, or couldn't I just do that with ChatGPT? But because 1560 01:15:39,745 --> 01:15:41,745 we're listening to customers and we're finding these weird little 1561 01:15:41,745 --> 01:15:45,450 problems, I'm on a demo call and I show someone like, oh, you can 1562 01:15:45,450 --> 01:15:49,210 do this in Salesforce. They're like, oh, that's that's it. 1563 01:15:49,210 --> 01:15:52,970 But you wouldn't know unless we talked to 50 other Salesforce 1564 01:15:52,970 --> 01:15:57,335 people. We built that one tiny little feature where it's like 1565 01:15:57,335 --> 01:16:00,695 it's not documented anywhere, but it's just how that part of 1566 01:16:00,695 --> 01:16:03,735 Salesforce works. And if you talk to someone who knows, then 1567 01:16:03,735 --> 01:16:05,975 you know. And if you don't, then you'll then you 1568 01:16:05,975 --> 01:16:08,535 Justin Jackson: won't build it. And being able to observe those 1569 01:16:08,695 --> 01:16:11,820 their reactions and everything. Yeah. So everything you're 1570 01:16:11,820 --> 01:16:16,300 telling me, Harris, just reminds me of this article by Rob Snyder 1571 01:16:16,300 --> 01:16:21,820 called How Loom Found Pull. And the idea is that you want 1572 01:16:22,060 --> 01:16:25,255 instead of like pushing a solution all the time, you want 1573 01:16:25,255 --> 01:16:27,415 where there's just natural pull. 1574 01:16:27,415 --> 01:16:30,695 People are naturally being pulled towards your solution. 1575 01:16:30,695 --> 01:16:35,895 And he has this pull hypothesis that I think is so great. It 1576 01:16:35,895 --> 01:16:40,830 goes, what are we designing for? And number one criteria, there's 1577 01:16:40,830 --> 01:16:45,150 a project on their to do list. Number two criteria, that is 1578 01:16:45,150 --> 01:16:46,430 unavoidable right now. 1579 01:16:46,430 --> 01:16:49,150 So there's a project on their to do list, and it's unavoidable. 1580 01:16:49,150 --> 01:16:52,755 They're they need to deal with it. Number three, they consider 1581 01:16:52,755 --> 01:16:55,475 a list of options to get it done. So, okay, we got a 1582 01:16:55,475 --> 01:16:57,315 problem. We need to get it done now. 1583 01:16:57,475 --> 01:16:59,315 Here's our list of options. We're going through this right 1584 01:16:59,315 --> 01:17:01,875 now with Transistor because we're trying to find an HLS 1585 01:17:01,875 --> 01:17:05,555 video streaming hosting solution. So we're Yeah. We're 1586 01:17:05,555 --> 01:17:09,260 going through a list of providers, But they think their 1587 01:17:09,260 --> 01:17:12,780 options have serious limitations. And I think we've 1588 01:17:12,780 --> 01:17:13,980 all experienced this, right? 1589 01:17:13,980 --> 01:17:19,260 Like, here's something. So this is a poll hypothesis. And they 1590 01:17:19,260 --> 01:17:24,775 talk they go through Loom's whole company story. And their 1591 01:17:24,775 --> 01:17:27,895 first one was OpenTest. Didn't work. 1592 01:17:28,135 --> 01:17:31,015 Great hypothesis. Just like you had, I think, some really good 1593 01:17:31,015 --> 01:17:35,175 early hypothesis hypotheses. Didn't work. Then they go to the 1594 01:17:35,175 --> 01:17:36,535 second one. Here's the second one. 1595 01:17:36,535 --> 01:17:40,990 OpenTest is the product version two. That didn't work. Okay. Now 1596 01:17:40,990 --> 01:17:44,910 we're gonna create a product called OpenVid, and they're 1597 01:17:44,910 --> 01:17:50,670 getting closer and closer. And then finally, they get to Loom, 1598 01:17:51,225 --> 01:17:56,505 which is, you know, this very successful video recording and 1599 01:17:56,505 --> 01:18:02,265 sharing tool, which was acquired by Jira for 975,000,000. 1600 01:18:02,505 --> 01:18:06,500 And what I like about this story and your story, I see it 1601 01:18:06,500 --> 01:18:10,660 mirrored in both, is that Rob asks the question, like, was 1602 01:18:10,660 --> 01:18:15,060 that original hypothesis wrong? Maybe not. Because there's 1603 01:18:15,060 --> 01:18:19,045 actually some other companies that release products exactly 1604 01:18:19,045 --> 01:18:23,685 with that hypothesis, and it worked. So there's a mix of 1605 01:18:23,845 --> 01:18:28,085 success factors, you know, timing, and maybe the skill of 1606 01:18:28,085 --> 01:18:31,845 the founder or these connections or the product approach or 1607 01:18:31,845 --> 01:18:35,300 whatever. Any given hypotheses can work. 1608 01:18:35,300 --> 01:18:40,100 But all you can do as an entrepreneur is keep iterating 1609 01:18:40,100 --> 01:18:46,645 and keep trying to find the thing that's going to work for 1610 01:18:46,645 --> 01:18:52,805 you, work for your customers, work in your world. And, yeah, 1611 01:18:52,805 --> 01:18:56,245 it just seems like you went through this exact journey. 1612 01:18:56,405 --> 01:18:57,045 Multiple If 1613 01:18:57,285 --> 01:18:59,845 Harris Kenny: you if you scroll up that thing, I mean, this 1614 01:18:59,845 --> 01:19:03,340 totally mirrors. So like today, like I had a like, this week, 1615 01:19:03,580 --> 01:19:05,980 we've been like, recently, we changed our pricing and since we 1616 01:19:05,980 --> 01:19:10,700 changed our pricing in we me. I changed our pricing in, like, 1617 01:19:10,700 --> 01:19:13,180 late April after I went to MicroConf. Yeah. And I listened 1618 01:19:13,180 --> 01:19:14,540 to Marcos Rivera. 1619 01:19:14,945 --> 01:19:17,665 It's called like street pricing. Yeah. I I listened to his 1620 01:19:17,665 --> 01:19:19,905 microconf talk literally five times and then plus all the 1621 01:19:19,905 --> 01:19:20,785 other random stuff. 1622 01:19:20,785 --> 01:19:21,345 Justin Jackson: Okay. 1623 01:19:21,345 --> 01:19:23,265 Harris Kenny: And we and I think we've really since since then, 1624 01:19:23,265 --> 01:19:26,065 conversations have been going even even better. So it's like 1625 01:19:26,065 --> 01:19:29,820 for us, like who are we designing for? It's revenue 1626 01:19:29,820 --> 01:19:32,540 teams using HubSpot and Salesforce. Yeah. So they 1627 01:19:32,540 --> 01:19:36,380 typically have multiple salespeople, and and they're 1628 01:19:36,380 --> 01:19:37,900 running this, like, outbound motion. 1629 01:19:38,300 --> 01:19:40,220 They need to connect. There's a project on their list. 1630 01:19:40,220 --> 01:19:42,780 Literally, someone said two people both people my my sales 1631 01:19:42,780 --> 01:19:46,095 calls this morning both said, I have it on my list to figure out 1632 01:19:46,095 --> 01:19:49,375 how to get these two things to talk to each other. Yeah. It's 1633 01:19:49,375 --> 01:19:51,615 unavoidable because they're spending the agency is the 1634 01:19:51,615 --> 01:19:54,975 secret sauce for us because when they're really serious, they 1635 01:19:54,975 --> 01:19:55,615 hire an agency. 1636 01:19:56,030 --> 01:19:58,270 And so there's like, we're spending a lot of money on this 1637 01:19:58,270 --> 01:20:01,710 really good agency. So we need results and we need to attract 1638 01:20:01,710 --> 01:20:05,550 what's happening. That's the like secret to why I think why 1639 01:20:05,550 --> 01:20:09,475 it's working so well is because they're committed to the outcome 1640 01:20:09,475 --> 01:20:12,115 versus internal teams like play around with outbound, but like 1641 01:20:12,115 --> 01:20:15,155 varying results and it's there's no urgency. Yeah. So it's like 1642 01:20:15,155 --> 01:20:16,995 they're shipping campaigns next week, we've got to get 1643 01:20:16,995 --> 01:20:18,355 everything connected or whatever. 1644 01:20:18,755 --> 01:20:22,595 They look at Zapier or Make or any of that or building it 1645 01:20:22,595 --> 01:20:25,340 themselves or not not integrating them is, like, 1646 01:20:25,340 --> 01:20:29,580 always an option. And then ultimately, some of those teams 1647 01:20:29,580 --> 01:20:32,300 decide that outbound sync is gonna help them get the data the 1648 01:20:32,300 --> 01:20:35,660 way they need it. Yeah. So, I mean, I I don't know. I mean, 1649 01:20:35,660 --> 01:20:37,900 maybe there's a way to, like, kind of forcibly shoehorn this 1650 01:20:37,900 --> 01:20:40,495 into any story, but I do feel like as I go through this, it 1651 01:20:40,495 --> 01:20:43,215 feels like we have a version of this today. 1652 01:20:43,215 --> 01:20:46,255 Justin Jackson: And I think this is the point is that if you 1653 01:20:46,255 --> 01:20:52,655 can't honestly and realistically and reasonably fill out this 1654 01:20:52,820 --> 01:20:57,540 hypotheses worksheet, already that's a no go. Now the 1655 01:20:57,540 --> 01:21:01,540 hypotheses worksheet does not mean you're automatically going 1656 01:21:01,540 --> 01:21:06,045 to hit a home run. But the way you just described it, I can 1657 01:21:06,205 --> 01:21:09,485 there's just these key points. It's like, this is a project on 1658 01:21:09,485 --> 01:21:12,525 their list that's unavoidable right now. How do we know that? 1659 01:21:12,525 --> 01:21:16,765 They've hired an agency. They have put they've invested time 1660 01:21:16,765 --> 01:21:21,170 and money and resources. This is and this is like everything in a 1661 01:21:21,170 --> 01:21:25,330 business. Like, John and I have been struggling with sales tax 1662 01:21:25,330 --> 01:21:27,970 forever. If you've listened to this podcast. 1663 01:21:28,130 --> 01:21:31,410 And it's been on our list forever. And then it reaches a 1664 01:21:31,410 --> 01:21:35,515 boiling point where it's unavoidable. We've got to deal 1665 01:21:35,515 --> 01:21:39,355 with this right now. We are going to invest real time, real 1666 01:21:39,355 --> 01:21:40,395 money. How do we know? 1667 01:21:40,395 --> 01:21:44,395 Well, it's become Justin's number one priority. It's my 1668 01:21:44,395 --> 01:21:47,990 number one project for the next two, three months. We are gonna 1669 01:21:47,990 --> 01:21:51,430 get this done. And in our case, we hired somebody, a contractor 1670 01:21:51,430 --> 01:21:55,190 to help us just like I was meeting with them every week. 1671 01:21:55,750 --> 01:21:57,110 We're strategizing. 1672 01:21:57,110 --> 01:21:59,510 We're trying to figure out what exactly do we need to do. We're 1673 01:21:59,510 --> 01:22:05,305 booking meetings. Like, that's how you know it's serious. And 1674 01:22:05,945 --> 01:22:11,145 again, there's no guarantees, but the stronger the signal is 1675 01:22:11,145 --> 01:22:17,390 here and the less you delude yourself. Like, when there's 1676 01:22:17,390 --> 01:22:20,350 real money being invested and you have that key observation 1677 01:22:20,350 --> 01:22:23,470 like you had, which was they've hired an agency, this is 1678 01:22:23,470 --> 01:22:24,110 serious. 1679 01:22:24,110 --> 01:22:28,510 Like, now this has gone from nice to have or yeah, that 1680 01:22:28,510 --> 01:22:33,185 sounds good or to no, we we're pushing. We're doing this. 1681 01:22:33,185 --> 01:22:35,505 Harris Kenny: Exactly. Yeah. There's board level metrics. 1682 01:22:35,505 --> 01:22:39,585 Like, have customers who are like the VP of marketing is 1683 01:22:39,585 --> 01:22:41,905 like, I have a board meeting next week. Mhmm. 1684 01:22:41,985 --> 01:22:45,970 I have a question about this app on sync data because our 1685 01:22:45,970 --> 01:22:48,290 internal admin is gonna build a report for me for my board 1686 01:22:48,290 --> 01:22:49,330 meeting kind of thing. And 1687 01:22:50,130 --> 01:22:53,490 Justin Jackson: you can in customer interviews and 1688 01:22:53,490 --> 01:22:57,330 investigations, you can ask questions that will reveal this, 1689 01:22:57,330 --> 01:23:00,675 which is what are you doing about this problem right now? So 1690 01:23:00,675 --> 01:23:04,275 you say it's on your list. You've got a project that's 1691 01:23:04,275 --> 01:23:07,235 unavoidable that you say is unavoidable. You say it's on 1692 01:23:07,235 --> 01:23:09,715 your list. What are you actually doing to solve that? 1693 01:23:10,210 --> 01:23:14,530 And if they're like, not much. I haven't really looked for 1694 01:23:14,530 --> 01:23:18,530 anything yet. Like, what have you considered? Not much. It's 1695 01:23:18,530 --> 01:23:19,249 like, okay. 1696 01:23:19,250 --> 01:23:22,290 This isn't yes. Sure. It's on your list, but 1697 01:23:22,450 --> 01:23:22,690 Harris Kenny: Yeah. 1698 01:23:22,770 --> 01:23:26,285 Justin Jackson: I don't see actual motion. Like, the 1699 01:23:26,285 --> 01:23:30,525 customer has to be in motion in a real serious way for it to 1700 01:23:30,525 --> 01:23:35,485 work. This is like, I built that that project with a college grad 1701 01:23:35,485 --> 01:23:38,124 called Swag Fan. It's like Yeah. Yeah. 1702 01:23:38,285 --> 01:23:45,740 Making swag. Now I use it. It's great. But that is not a serious 1703 01:23:45,740 --> 01:23:51,740 project on most people's list. And so it's it's never gonna 1704 01:23:51,740 --> 01:23:55,585 have that same pull that something else would. 1705 01:23:55,585 --> 01:23:59,425 There's there's something way higher on most founders' lists 1706 01:23:59,505 --> 01:24:03,105 and most marketing people's lists than we gotta get swag out 1707 01:24:03,105 --> 01:24:06,545 right now to our fans and influencers and everything. 1708 01:24:06,545 --> 01:24:08,225 Harris Kenny: Well, so the urgency thing, I mean, for sure. 1709 01:24:08,225 --> 01:24:12,440 There's so much to that. Last thing on this where I think it's 1710 01:24:12,440 --> 01:24:14,520 super interesting is like the value goes both ways for the 1711 01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:17,880 agencies too. They want to be able to prove results. Yeah. 1712 01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,840 And so when we get the data into that important system, they can 1713 01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:24,520 show the customers the value. Mhmm. So for them, it helps with 1714 01:24:24,520 --> 01:24:27,615 retention too. Yeah. And it helps them get credit when 1715 01:24:27,615 --> 01:24:30,815 there's conversion that they didn't directly drive. 1716 01:24:31,615 --> 01:24:33,695 So I email a company. I let's say let's say you're doing the 1717 01:24:33,695 --> 01:24:36,415 sales tax thing and I end up emailing, like, Helen for some 1718 01:24:36,415 --> 01:24:39,790 reason, and I'm, with Numeral. Numeral solves sales tax for 1719 01:24:39,790 --> 01:24:42,030 SaaS companies. I email Helen. Helen's like, oh, this isn't my 1720 01:24:42,030 --> 01:24:43,310 thing, but I forward it to Justin. 1721 01:24:43,470 --> 01:24:47,470 Then Justin goes to Numeral's website, signs up. The cold 1722 01:24:47,470 --> 01:24:51,115 agency email that the cold agency that email Helen that and 1723 01:24:51,115 --> 01:24:53,835 then the next day, you signed up for Numeral, like, that's a 1724 01:24:53,835 --> 01:24:56,235 conversion that they're normally not never getting credit for. 1725 01:24:56,235 --> 01:24:59,675 Yes. So, like, there's we're so in the middle of lots of things, 1726 01:24:59,675 --> 01:25:01,755 but and so we're I think we're the middle of, like, trying to 1727 01:25:01,755 --> 01:25:05,210 create win wins across things and just solve annoying problems 1728 01:25:05,210 --> 01:25:07,690 so that different people can talk. And, like, the swag fan 1729 01:25:07,690 --> 01:25:09,930 thing is a funny example of, like, yeah, like, who yeah. 1730 01:25:09,930 --> 01:25:12,650 Who's feeling that? Who's like, god. I really I really need this 1731 01:25:12,650 --> 01:25:14,170 swag. Exactly. Yeah. 1732 01:25:14,170 --> 01:25:16,010 So there's there's a lot of weird ways where I don't know. 1733 01:25:16,010 --> 01:25:18,765 Ultimately, like, I'm not sure why this is working right now if 1734 01:25:18,765 --> 01:25:21,165 you add it all up. I don't know. I just I just it it feels like 1735 01:25:21,165 --> 01:25:23,565 it's going really well. I don't know what's gonna happen next. 1736 01:25:23,565 --> 01:25:25,965 And I couldn't really if I had to recreate it, I couldn't. 1737 01:25:25,965 --> 01:25:28,765 Mhmm. Because I because I couldn't really boil it down to, 1738 01:25:28,765 --> 01:25:30,685 like, okay. Here's the three things or here's the five 1739 01:25:30,390 --> 01:25:30,710 things. 1740 01:25:30,710 --> 01:25:34,550 Justin Jackson: But this is the important piece I want people to 1741 01:25:34,550 --> 01:25:40,710 take away. This is a journey. It's like you deciding as a 1742 01:25:40,710 --> 01:25:44,645 founder, I'm going to do this. And at the beginning, you think 1743 01:25:44,645 --> 01:25:48,165 it's gonna be a one or two year project. Like, I'm gonna I'm 1744 01:25:48,165 --> 01:25:51,125 gonna quit my job, and I'm gonna get this done in two years, and 1745 01:25:51,125 --> 01:25:52,325 I'm gonna have a great business. 1746 01:25:52,725 --> 01:25:57,880 And the truth is is this is a lifetime project, and you are on 1747 01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:02,440 a journey of iterating and trying to get closer to your 1748 01:26:02,440 --> 01:26:08,840 goal. And again, every at bat you have, you got to be doing 1749 01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:15,275 something, some fundamentals to give yourself a better shot. But 1750 01:26:15,275 --> 01:26:19,515 you also have to get go up to bat. You have to make some 1751 01:26:19,515 --> 01:26:24,650 swings like you did. And then eventually, something will hit. 1752 01:26:24,650 --> 01:26:27,770 And you won't know completely why. You'll have some ideas. As 1753 01:26:27,770 --> 01:26:32,170 an outsider, I think I can see a lot of characteristics about why 1754 01:26:32,170 --> 01:26:37,655 outbound sync worked. It just has a lot of built in momentum. 1755 01:26:37,655 --> 01:26:42,295 You're in an existing juggernaut of an ecosystem with HubSpot and 1756 01:26:42,295 --> 01:26:43,095 Salesforce. 1757 01:26:43,255 --> 01:26:47,895 There's so much money in motion there. And so for you to capture 1758 01:26:47,895 --> 01:26:51,830 some of that value or create new value inside that ecosystem, it 1759 01:26:51,830 --> 01:26:55,110 just makes sense. And I think people need to follow this 1760 01:26:55,110 --> 01:27:00,790 example and understand there's no guarantees. So you could get 1761 01:27:00,790 --> 01:27:05,295 up to bat 10 times, and it might not work out. But what you're 1762 01:27:05,295 --> 01:27:09,455 doing as a founder is you're basically betting that if I keep 1763 01:27:09,455 --> 01:27:13,615 at this, if I keep improving, if I keep learning, if I keep 1764 01:27:13,615 --> 01:27:17,455 iterating, one of these at bats is gonna produce something. 1765 01:27:18,430 --> 01:27:22,350 And, yeah, dude, I'm just so pleased for you. Congrats on 1766 01:27:22,670 --> 01:27:26,430 getting it to here. This is such an awesome success story. 1767 01:27:26,510 --> 01:27:29,390 Harris Kenny: Thanks, man. Yeah. I I mean, yeah, I learned so 1768 01:27:29,390 --> 01:27:31,870 much. I I mean, I feel like I was learning so much for so long 1769 01:27:31,870 --> 01:27:34,785 from you. So when we connected and talking about coming back on 1770 01:27:34,785 --> 01:27:36,705 here, felt like a really yeah. 1771 01:27:36,705 --> 01:27:38,705 Like a full circle thing. I was happy to do it. You know? We 1772 01:27:38,865 --> 01:27:41,025 like, yeah. Like, feel like it's the end of the beginning now. 1773 01:27:41,025 --> 01:27:43,825 And so now, like, the work begins, but it feels like we're 1774 01:27:43,825 --> 01:27:48,200 default alive. I'm not, like, really anxious about paying 1775 01:27:48,200 --> 01:27:51,560 bills or the the threat of not being able to pay bills sort of 1776 01:27:51,560 --> 01:27:54,600 somewhat soon. And so now I'm hoping I can breathe and start 1777 01:27:54,600 --> 01:27:57,320 even taking some bigger risks than we have before. Because 1778 01:27:57,320 --> 01:28:01,080 like in the last six years, every time I place a bet, it 1779 01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:05,215 kinda had to pay off or I had to do or or be such a little bet 1780 01:28:05,215 --> 01:28:06,095 that it could lose. Oh, 1781 01:28:06,095 --> 01:28:08,255 Justin Jackson: yeah. I mean, once you get out of that scrappy 1782 01:28:08,255 --> 01:28:13,855 bets stage where, like, good investors, good people who make 1783 01:28:14,015 --> 01:28:17,500 people who are good at making bets, eventually, the whole idea 1784 01:28:17,500 --> 01:28:21,180 is that they are betting resources that they can lose. 1785 01:28:21,420 --> 01:28:26,700 Right. So it's like, this is a pretty good bet. But if I lose 1786 01:28:26,700 --> 01:28:28,700 this bet, it's not the end of the world. 1787 01:28:28,700 --> 01:28:31,305 Whereas when you're at the beginning and you're 1788 01:28:31,305 --> 01:28:33,945 bootstrapping and you're scrappy, it's like, if I lose 1789 01:28:33,945 --> 01:28:38,425 this bet, yeah, like, it could be rough. You know? 1790 01:28:38,425 --> 01:28:38,905 Harris Kenny: Yeah. 1791 01:28:38,985 --> 01:28:42,585 Justin Jackson: And it felt like every bet leading up to 1792 01:28:42,585 --> 01:28:45,865 Transistor was like that for me. It was like Yeah. Okay. Like, 1793 01:28:46,450 --> 01:28:51,490 this is I am kinda betting the farm every time. That's why it's 1794 01:28:51,490 --> 01:28:52,290 so hard. 1795 01:28:52,370 --> 01:28:55,410 But, yeah, now at this stage, I think you're you're about to 1796 01:28:55,410 --> 01:28:58,610 enter a really fun stage. Running a company is always 1797 01:28:58,610 --> 01:29:01,675 hard. But at this stage when you have more resources and more 1798 01:29:01,675 --> 01:29:05,195 breathing room and more calm and more margin, then it just 1799 01:29:05,195 --> 01:29:08,075 becomes about showing up every day. I just think my job is 1800 01:29:08,075 --> 01:29:12,090 showing up every day and moving this giant rock further down the 1801 01:29:12,090 --> 01:29:15,130 path. Like, I'm just pushing it a little bit more. 1802 01:29:15,610 --> 01:29:21,210 And those efforts are kind of multiplied in a way that didn't 1803 01:29:21,210 --> 01:29:26,035 happen before because there is existing pull. So, yeah, I'm 1804 01:29:26,035 --> 01:29:28,755 excited for you. For folks who wanna check out what you're 1805 01:29:28,755 --> 01:29:32,115 doing, where should they find you? On LinkedIn and at the 1806 01:29:32,115 --> 01:29:32,675 website? 1807 01:29:32,675 --> 01:29:34,835 Harris Kenny: Yeah. Outboundsync.com. And then, 1808 01:29:34,835 --> 01:29:37,690 yeah, LinkedIn, Harris Kenny. Look me up. As we've been 1809 01:29:37,690 --> 01:29:40,890 embracing our partners, I post really weird funny stuff, like, 1810 01:29:41,130 --> 01:29:43,370 about Pokemon, and I've been posting memes. 1811 01:29:43,370 --> 01:29:46,170 And just like we found our ICP, and so I'm just having fun, 1812 01:29:46,170 --> 01:29:49,370 like, posting for them. Oh, sweet. So so yeah. So if you if 1813 01:29:49,370 --> 01:29:52,235 you like kind of funny goofy LinkedIn, go there. If you're 1814 01:29:52,235 --> 01:29:55,115 looking for inspiration, it's you're it's not the place. 1815 01:29:55,195 --> 01:29:57,275 Justin Jackson: Sweet. Sweet. Well, thanks so much for being 1816 01:29:57,275 --> 01:30:00,555 here. I'm gonna read out our supporters because we haven't 1817 01:30:00,555 --> 01:30:03,675 done our Patreon shout outs in a while. So thanks to everyone 1818 01:30:03,675 --> 01:30:06,760 who's still supporting the show on Patreon. 1819 01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:10,680 We've got Pascal. We've got Greg Park. We've got Mitchell Davis. 1820 01:30:10,680 --> 01:30:13,160 We've got Marcel Folle. We've got Bill Condo. 1821 01:30:13,160 --> 01:30:16,520 We've got Ward from memberspace.com. Evander Sassy, 1822 01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:19,885 Austin Loveless, Michael Sidberg, Colin Gray, and Dave 1823 01:30:19,885 --> 01:30:24,525 Junta. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Harris. See you soon.