An update from Justin and Jon

1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,280 Jon: I do the intro, I guess. 2 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:02,880 Justin: You do the intro. Do you remember how? 3 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,640 Jon: Yeah. Sure. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Build Your SaaS. This 4 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,400 is the behind the scenes story of building a web app in 2025. 5 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,480 I'm Jon Buda, a software engineer. 6 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,200 Justin: And I'm Justin Jackson. I do product and marketing. 7 00:00:15,765 --> 00:00:32,630 Follow along as we build and run transistor.fm. Jon, we're back. 8 00:00:32,630 --> 00:00:36,950 Jon: Yeah. It's been, it's been a while. Two years, which is 9 00:00:36,950 --> 00:00:37,910 hard hard to believe. 10 00:00:37,910 --> 00:00:40,470 Justin: I've missed doing this I've missed doing this with you. 11 00:00:40,550 --> 00:00:41,190 Jon: Yeah. 12 00:00:41,350 --> 00:00:45,285 Justin: Yeah. Maybe we just gotta re reboot it. Every week, 13 00:00:45,285 --> 00:00:47,125 we could just get on a call like this. 14 00:00:47,125 --> 00:00:49,445 Jon: I think we've we've probably tried to do this, like, 15 00:00:50,005 --> 00:00:53,525 a dozen times. Yeah. And it never worked out. 16 00:00:53,765 --> 00:00:54,965 Justin: I mean, a lot was going on. 17 00:00:54,965 --> 00:00:58,790 Jon: Part part yeah. There's a lot going on. Part of it is this 18 00:00:58,790 --> 00:01:03,910 is not necessarily the thing that gives me energy like you. 19 00:01:04,150 --> 00:01:10,550 Justin: What are we doing here, Jon? What is it is it drain your 20 00:01:10,550 --> 00:01:11,350 battery a little bit? 21 00:01:11,350 --> 00:01:12,150 Jon: A little bit. Yeah. 22 00:01:12,150 --> 00:01:15,085 Justin: Okay. Okay. I mean, that's the heart. We'll we'll 23 00:01:15,085 --> 00:01:20,845 talk about that later. I I there's a great topic about 24 00:01:20,845 --> 00:01:23,565 burnout that we could talk about a bit later. 25 00:01:23,565 --> 00:01:26,845 But, yeah, it's been two years. I think the last time we peered 26 00:01:26,845 --> 00:01:30,205 on an episode together was our Nashville team retreat episode. 27 00:01:30,820 --> 00:01:35,060 And then the last episode where it was just the two of us, 28 00:01:35,460 --> 00:01:40,740 04/19/2023. Jeez. That's right after we hired Josh Anderton, 29 00:01:41,140 --> 00:01:43,380 and we did an update episode. 30 00:01:43,380 --> 00:01:43,780 So 31 00:01:44,180 --> 00:01:44,500 Jon: Wow. 32 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:45,540 Justin: It has been a while. 33 00:01:46,545 --> 00:01:47,825 Jon: It's been a while. I don't yeah. 34 00:01:47,825 --> 00:01:48,625 Justin: Nothing's really happened 35 00:01:48,625 --> 00:01:49,745 Jon: since then. Right? 36 00:01:49,745 --> 00:01:52,545 Justin: You had a lot happen. 37 00:01:52,785 --> 00:01:54,145 Jon: You There was a lot. 38 00:01:54,145 --> 00:01:57,185 Justin: What what's going on in the last two years since people 39 00:01:57,185 --> 00:01:58,145 last heard from you? 40 00:01:58,145 --> 00:02:00,910 Jon: The last two years, honestly, beyond one year, I 41 00:02:00,910 --> 00:02:05,550 don't even remember. But the last two years there's been a 42 00:02:05,550 --> 00:02:11,710 lot. So I got married in October 2024. Yeah. Right? 43 00:02:11,710 --> 00:02:17,485 What year Yeah is 2024. Which was super fun in Guatemala. 44 00:02:17,485 --> 00:02:18,525 Justin: It was really fun. 45 00:02:18,685 --> 00:02:21,565 Jon: You were there. There was a lot of a lot of friends of the 46 00:02:21,565 --> 00:02:23,565 podcast and friends of Transistor there. 47 00:02:23,565 --> 00:02:27,645 Justin: By the way Family. One of my favorite trips of all 48 00:02:27,645 --> 00:02:32,090 time. Just like Yeah. It's Getting to meet up with all of 49 00:02:32,090 --> 00:02:37,210 your friends. It was weird being with people that are all our age 50 00:02:37,530 --> 00:02:40,970 and just seeing the different I mean, for you, it probably felt 51 00:02:40,970 --> 00:02:43,210 like a high school reunion because a lot of those people 52 00:02:43,210 --> 00:02:44,010 you grew up with. 53 00:02:44,175 --> 00:02:44,895 Jon: Yeah. 54 00:02:44,895 --> 00:02:47,615 Justin: But for me, I was just like, it also felt like a high 55 00:02:47,615 --> 00:02:51,615 school reunion. And getting to meet all these people is like, 56 00:02:51,615 --> 00:02:54,655 some people are just having babies for the first time. Some 57 00:02:54,655 --> 00:03:00,250 people like me, like, my kids are all, you know, older. People 58 00:03:00,250 --> 00:03:04,090 all over the map and then just getting to hang out, like, while 59 00:03:04,090 --> 00:03:07,690 you and you and Wendy were getting married and doing all 60 00:03:07,690 --> 00:03:11,995 the photos and stuff, we were out exploring Guatemala. So it 61 00:03:11,995 --> 00:03:12,955 felt like summer camp. 62 00:03:12,955 --> 00:03:13,675 It was so fun. 63 00:03:13,675 --> 00:03:15,835 Jon: It was really fun. Yeah. Was a it was a really nice time 64 00:03:15,835 --> 00:03:18,315 to see everyone. Yeah. Guatemala is a beautiful place. 65 00:03:18,315 --> 00:03:23,675 And you and and your wife and Wendy and I all kind of traveled 66 00:03:23,675 --> 00:03:26,235 a little bit together afterwards for a couple days too, which was 67 00:03:26,235 --> 00:03:28,580 Justin: super Went to Lake Atitlan? Is that how you call 68 00:03:28,580 --> 00:03:29,060 it? 69 00:03:29,140 --> 00:03:34,020 Jon: Yeah. Atitlan. Yeah. Yeah. And hung out at a nice hotel and 70 00:03:34,020 --> 00:03:35,380 just kind of relaxed a little bit. 71 00:03:35,380 --> 00:03:37,700 Justin: Vernon and I still talk about that too. Just the most 72 00:03:37,700 --> 00:03:44,115 beautiful, like, sunsets. It was you felt like you were just in a 73 00:03:44,115 --> 00:03:45,715 different world. 74 00:03:45,715 --> 00:03:47,795 Jon: Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a super relaxing place. 75 00:03:47,795 --> 00:03:49,795 Justin: Except for except for when Lauren and I got caught in 76 00:03:49,795 --> 00:03:51,795 a sudden downpour. And then 77 00:03:52,115 --> 00:03:52,835 Jon: That's true. 78 00:03:52,835 --> 00:03:53,395 Justin: We had to, like 79 00:03:53,715 --> 00:03:57,010 Jon: And we had to had to call the boat for you or something to 80 00:03:57,010 --> 00:03:57,810 come rescue you? 81 00:03:57,810 --> 00:03:59,970 Justin: Yeah. We were like over like, we were staying on one 82 00:03:59,970 --> 00:04:03,010 side of the lake, and then Lerner and I decided to go out 83 00:04:03,010 --> 00:04:07,250 kinda late in the afternoon to the other side of the lake. And 84 00:04:07,490 --> 00:04:12,265 we didn't realize that the ferry only ran until a certain time. 85 00:04:12,425 --> 00:04:16,985 And so we missed the ferry, and then it just started downpouring 86 00:04:16,985 --> 00:04:20,825 like this crazy storm. And we had to message you on WhatsApp 87 00:04:20,825 --> 00:04:23,065 and say, please send a boat for us. 88 00:04:23,990 --> 00:04:24,310 Jon: Yeah. 89 00:04:24,310 --> 00:04:26,950 Justin: Some guy came and rescued us in the rain and oh, 90 00:04:26,950 --> 00:04:27,350 man. 91 00:04:27,350 --> 00:04:30,710 Jon: Yeah. That was wild. Oh, man. Yeah. But that was that was 92 00:04:30,710 --> 00:04:33,350 all super super fun wedding. 93 00:04:33,590 --> 00:04:36,070 Justin: Was that just a year that was just the like, it'll be 94 00:04:36,070 --> 00:04:37,750 your one year anniversary this October. 95 00:04:38,865 --> 00:04:43,425 Jon: Wow, man. Yeah. A lot it was a busy year. So following 96 00:04:43,425 --> 00:04:47,985 that, we had been talking a while, my wife and I, about, I 97 00:04:47,985 --> 00:04:49,665 don't know, potentially moving somewhere. Mhmm. 98 00:04:49,665 --> 00:04:54,400 So we decided to do a road trip in March for six weeks across 99 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,360 The US, Western US mostly. And the first place we stopped was 100 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,720 Fort Collins in Colorado and we have friends here, a friend of 101 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:04,960 mine that I grew up with who you met at Yeah, the 102 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:06,080 Justin: he's hilarious. 103 00:05:06,225 --> 00:05:09,665 Jon: Him and his him and his wife and kids. So we stayed here 104 00:05:09,665 --> 00:05:15,265 for a couple weeks and so it was the first stop on the tour and 105 00:05:15,505 --> 00:05:17,905 they had a friend who was a realtor and we were just like, 106 00:05:17,905 --> 00:05:21,040 well let's look around and see what's around. Not really 107 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,040 thinking we would you know find a place or buy a place and we 108 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,440 found a place and we put in an offer and got it and then 109 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,465 continued on the road trip for four more weeks and then you 110 00:05:33,465 --> 00:05:37,625 know came back to Chicago and realized we had to sell two 111 00:05:37,625 --> 00:05:42,745 different places and move and pack up two places and you know 112 00:05:42,745 --> 00:05:45,225 find a moving company and figure out all that moving cross 113 00:05:45,225 --> 00:05:49,280 country. So that that was like the month of May was incredibly 114 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:53,760 busy. And then we we finally got we finally got here in the June 115 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,480 and everything went really smoothly. 116 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,680 Both, you know, selling and buying and finding movers. We 117 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,960 found some good movers. Yeah. I'm glad that's over, but it was 118 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:03,520 it was a lot. 119 00:06:04,455 --> 00:06:07,655 Justin: I mean, your place looks pretty set up. Your your place 120 00:06:07,655 --> 00:06:10,375 looks more set up than my place. I still don't have art up in on 121 00:06:10,375 --> 00:06:11,575 some of my walls. 122 00:06:12,215 --> 00:06:14,535 Jon: Oh, no. We have, yeah, we have a guest room that's just 123 00:06:14,695 --> 00:06:19,175 the bed is full of artwork and a couple boxes, and the garage is 124 00:06:19,175 --> 00:06:22,130 full of stuff. So it's coming along. It's it's been really 125 00:06:22,130 --> 00:06:22,290 nice. 126 00:06:22,290 --> 00:06:24,290 Justin: I remember you saying you're going on that road trip 127 00:06:24,290 --> 00:06:28,690 because I you'd been kind of, like, not happy in Chicago for a 128 00:06:28,690 --> 00:06:31,010 while. Just wanted to get somewhere else, was ready to 129 00:06:31,010 --> 00:06:34,610 move Yeah. Was ready to try something else. I think this 130 00:06:34,610 --> 00:06:37,545 also relates to this burnout topic we're gonna talk about in 131 00:06:37,545 --> 00:06:40,665 a bit. But and I I remember saying, well, you should just go 132 00:06:40,665 --> 00:06:42,025 and check some places out. 133 00:06:42,265 --> 00:06:45,545 And then I I couldn't believe it when you, like, stopped in Fort 134 00:06:45,545 --> 00:06:48,265 Collins and you're like, oh, yeah. We put in an offer. We're 135 00:06:48,265 --> 00:06:49,065 buying this place. 136 00:06:49,065 --> 00:06:52,440 Jon: We had been here before years ago and had an idea we 137 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,760 liked it, but we just really liked it when we stayed here. 138 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,320 And everyone's all the neighbors and everyone's just been, like, 139 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,160 super nice and welcoming. It's a nice change of pace from 140 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,400 Chicago. Although, you know, we'll miss Chicago and it's an 141 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,585 amazing city, but we've been there for a long time and just 142 00:07:06,665 --> 00:07:08,425 Justin: Looking for something different. Yeah. 143 00:07:08,425 --> 00:07:13,465 Jon: Something different. Yeah. And so we did it. And it was 144 00:07:14,825 --> 00:07:18,020 yeah. Those few months were, like, really tough to get work 145 00:07:18,020 --> 00:07:21,060 done and and, like, any momentum on things. 146 00:07:21,940 --> 00:07:24,740 There was just, a million other things going on. Yeah. But we 147 00:07:24,740 --> 00:07:26,500 did it. And now we're here. 148 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:30,020 Justin: Yeah. I I mean, and this is what when we started the 149 00:07:30,020 --> 00:07:34,195 company, this was one of the original visions is that we 150 00:07:34,195 --> 00:07:38,195 said, okay, if we could just get to the point where this replaces 151 00:07:38,195 --> 00:07:43,155 our salaries, and then beyond that, if it just if the company 152 00:07:43,315 --> 00:07:49,940 gives us room and margin to have a good life to, you know, I need 153 00:07:49,940 --> 00:07:52,740 to move. Mhmm. We can move. You know? 154 00:07:52,740 --> 00:07:57,625 There's not a big deal. Yeah. Both you and I have both bought 155 00:07:57,625 --> 00:08:00,585 new houses and moved since we started the company. 156 00:08:00,665 --> 00:08:01,145 Jon: Yeah. 157 00:08:01,145 --> 00:08:05,705 Justin: It it's it's enabled, I think, more than we could have 158 00:08:05,705 --> 00:08:08,905 really ever asked for or dreamed. Yeah. It's been 159 00:08:08,905 --> 00:08:09,625 incredible. 160 00:08:09,625 --> 00:08:11,625 Jon: Yeah. I've talked about that with a lot of people of 161 00:08:11,625 --> 00:08:17,380 just like how grateful I am for the company and coworkers and 162 00:08:17,540 --> 00:08:20,500 and you and having this all work out because I I don't know how 163 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:24,020 anyone would move across the country with a regular job. 164 00:08:24,020 --> 00:08:24,820 Justin: Yeah. I 165 00:08:25,235 --> 00:08:27,155 Jon: don't I don't understand how anyone would do it. 166 00:08:27,155 --> 00:08:28,755 Justin: Yeah. You you you I mean, you have 167 00:08:28,755 --> 00:08:29,875 Jon: to I mean, people do all the time. 168 00:08:29,875 --> 00:08:30,915 Justin: You'd to use vacation time. 169 00:08:30,915 --> 00:08:32,355 Jon: Take time off. Yeah. It's 170 00:08:32,995 --> 00:08:40,115 Justin: it's having having the capacity for a company to have 171 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:45,080 the capacity for people to live their lives feels first of all, 172 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,360 it doesn't happen enough. And then, yeah, when you're in that 173 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,560 position, you just feel super fortunate. Like, wow, this is 174 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:55,475 great. We get to do this. That's awesome. 175 00:08:55,475 --> 00:08:56,915 Jon: Yeah. That's great. 176 00:08:56,915 --> 00:09:00,275 Justin: That's awesome, man. Yeah. Well, I've this past 177 00:09:00,275 --> 00:09:04,035 summer, I well, not this past summer. Yeah. This past summer, 178 00:09:04,035 --> 00:09:08,595 we we moved my second oldest out to Toronto to go to college out 179 00:09:08,595 --> 00:09:08,835 there. 180 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,840 So now I have two kids out of the house. Sadie and Marty are 181 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:18,480 both in school. And then I just have two at home, grade 11, 182 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:25,275 grade 12. So I'm I'm entering into an interesting phase where 183 00:09:25,915 --> 00:09:32,395 I've been mostly I mean, mostly my whole life. Mostly my whole 184 00:09:32,395 --> 00:09:38,235 life, I've just been focused on trying to grind and provide for 185 00:09:38,235 --> 00:09:38,795 my family. 186 00:09:40,210 --> 00:09:45,410 And it's been it's been interesting as the kids have 187 00:09:45,410 --> 00:09:48,930 started to move out, and then as the older two are just more 188 00:09:48,930 --> 00:09:55,025 independent, how for the first time, I feel like I have the 189 00:09:55,025 --> 00:10:01,505 space to kind of be introspective and go, wait, what 190 00:10:01,505 --> 00:10:06,590 what do I want? Am I a human being? Like, what what what's 191 00:10:06,590 --> 00:10:12,350 going on with me? You know? And realizing what a weight that's 192 00:10:12,350 --> 00:10:18,685 been on me to have, you know and there's still, you know I'm 193 00:10:18,685 --> 00:10:20,845 still helping my kids out while they go to college. 194 00:10:20,845 --> 00:10:25,245 And, you know, there's still caregiving lots of caregiving 195 00:10:25,245 --> 00:10:30,765 ahead of me, but it's certainly different than the other phases 196 00:10:30,765 --> 00:10:31,965 of family life. 197 00:10:31,965 --> 00:10:32,365 Jon: Yeah. 198 00:10:32,365 --> 00:10:38,660 Justin: And, yeah, I it's it's again, I think having I'm just 199 00:10:38,660 --> 00:10:42,820 so grateful that the company that Transistor is at this phase 200 00:10:42,820 --> 00:10:50,035 right now where as I'm now 45 and thinking all these probably 201 00:10:50,035 --> 00:10:53,955 45 year old thoughts like, who am I? What do I want? What do I 202 00:10:53,955 --> 00:10:55,635 want for the next phase of my life? 203 00:10:56,275 --> 00:10:57,555 Jon: Why why does my back hurt? 204 00:10:57,635 --> 00:11:01,395 Justin: My back hurt all the time. And and kind of even 205 00:11:01,395 --> 00:11:08,390 opening up, having the energy and time to even focus on things 206 00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:13,510 that I would have never I I didn't really have energy to 207 00:11:13,510 --> 00:11:18,855 focus on before, personally. Yeah. It's been it's been really 208 00:11:18,855 --> 00:11:24,535 nice to have that space. And, yeah, feels like I'm at a 209 00:11:24,535 --> 00:11:25,895 another kind of pivot point. 210 00:11:25,895 --> 00:11:27,415 We'll see what what happens. 211 00:11:27,415 --> 00:11:30,770 Jon: It seems it seems like it kind of based on the the stuff 212 00:11:30,770 --> 00:11:33,490 you've been sending me and the and the things we've talked 213 00:11:33,490 --> 00:11:36,610 Justin: about Yeah. Recently. Well, let's let's get into some 214 00:11:36,610 --> 00:11:42,450 of that. So Aaron Francis writes this great weekly newsletter. I 215 00:11:42,450 --> 00:11:45,815 think he calls it this week at Tryhard Studios, which is his 216 00:11:45,815 --> 00:11:46,535 company. 217 00:11:47,175 --> 00:11:53,175 And from the 09/05/2025 issue, was this article and a series of 218 00:11:53,175 --> 00:11:58,320 tweets about how burnout might not just be from, you know, 219 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:02,400 burning yourself out physically and mentally. Know, you're 220 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:07,200 burning the candle at both ends. That's our typical definition of 221 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:12,800 burnout. And Aaron says the idea that working hard does not lead 222 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:17,095 to burnout, but the lack of hope leads to burnout. So if you're 223 00:12:17,095 --> 00:12:20,295 working really, really hard for something that you don't believe 224 00:12:20,295 --> 00:12:23,735 will pay off, it's super easy to lose motivation. 225 00:12:24,295 --> 00:12:26,455 And that's happened to me in the past. If you believe that the 226 00:12:26,455 --> 00:12:28,855 thing you're working on will have a payoff, the amount of 227 00:12:28,855 --> 00:12:30,620 work almost doesn't matter. 228 00:12:30,620 --> 00:12:31,260 Jon: Yeah. 229 00:12:31,420 --> 00:12:36,300 Justin: Yeah. There's something about that that idea. Now, I I 230 00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:41,100 still think that the traditional form of burnout exists, but this 231 00:12:41,100 --> 00:12:44,220 idea that there's this other kind of burnout. So if burnout 232 00:12:44,220 --> 00:12:52,125 is like a kind of numbness or persistent lack of motivation, a 233 00:12:52,125 --> 00:12:57,485 kind of deadening inside Yeah. You know, that can be caused by, 234 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,600 you know, depression and overwhelm. 235 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,160 And, you know, I've had entrepreneurial friends who've 236 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,160 gotten shingles. They've been so stressed out. So stress and 237 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,480 overwhelm, you know, that definitely is one form of 238 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:17,115 burnout. But this idea of like, man, I'm I'm working on 239 00:13:17,115 --> 00:13:21,435 something, but I no longer see the reason. I no longer am 240 00:13:21,675 --> 00:13:23,115 motivated by this. 241 00:13:23,435 --> 00:13:25,275 I think I can identify. 242 00:13:25,275 --> 00:13:28,000 Jon: Yeah. I can identify to that. Maybe not in transistor. I 243 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,800 really haven't felt that necessarily with transistor, but 244 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,440 certainly previous jobs where you just like you reach a point 245 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,080 and you're like, I don't care Yeah. Anymore. 246 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:39,520 And you just sort of I mean, I guess I guess it's burnout, but 247 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,985 it's just like, don't really want to be working on this. I 248 00:13:42,985 --> 00:13:46,345 don't care about the end result. And then at that point, it's I 249 00:13:46,345 --> 00:13:49,225 feel like it's just over and you gotta find a way out or 250 00:13:49,225 --> 00:13:49,545 something. 251 00:13:49,545 --> 00:13:52,265 Justin: For me, what was kind of striking about this whole 252 00:13:52,265 --> 00:13:58,820 concept is that there's times I think I haven't realized I've 253 00:13:58,820 --> 00:14:02,180 been in this mode. Like, I just keep going to the office, and 254 00:14:02,180 --> 00:14:05,780 then I would get to the office and I'd be, like, staring at my 255 00:14:05,780 --> 00:14:10,575 screen and being like, how come I can't get going? What's what's 256 00:14:10,575 --> 00:14:11,695 what's going on here? 257 00:14:11,695 --> 00:14:13,935 Jon: And you've and you felt that with Transistor too? 258 00:14:14,015 --> 00:14:19,535 Justin: I think sometimes in the industry yeah. And and also just 259 00:14:20,175 --> 00:14:25,050 maybe also just wondering, like, what's the motive? I mean, a 260 00:14:25,050 --> 00:14:27,930 longtime listeners to the show will know that this isn't the 261 00:14:27,930 --> 00:14:32,250 first time we've kind of talked about these feelings. And I had 262 00:14:32,250 --> 00:14:34,890 this great call with Jason Cohen, the the founder of WP 263 00:14:34,890 --> 00:14:39,155 Engine. And he said, you know, Justin, what are you feeling? 264 00:14:39,155 --> 00:14:43,235 And I said, well, I don't know. Like, what do I have? What do I 265 00:14:43,235 --> 00:14:45,635 have the right to feel anything about? Like, it's you know, 266 00:14:45,635 --> 00:14:49,070 things are great. I'm healthy. 267 00:14:49,070 --> 00:14:52,430 My kids are healthy. My wife's healthy. We we got a house. We 268 00:14:52,430 --> 00:14:55,630 got the car. We've, you know, we've got this company. 269 00:14:55,630 --> 00:14:59,070 We got a great team. It's still growing. Like, what do I have to 270 00:14:59,070 --> 00:15:03,455 be unhappy about? And he said, well, actually, the it's super 271 00:15:03,455 --> 00:15:07,695 common at your stage. We've been doing transistor almost eight 272 00:15:07,695 --> 00:15:08,655 years, I think. 273 00:15:09,055 --> 00:15:14,815 Yeah. And he says, it's just super common for for founders at 274 00:15:14,815 --> 00:15:19,430 this stage to be like, like, what what are we doing this for 275 00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:23,510 now? And in the beginning, it's just so clear. Like, when we 276 00:15:23,510 --> 00:15:27,430 started recording the show, I've been going back to old episodes. 277 00:15:28,070 --> 00:15:32,625 And one thing I gotta say is having this record of everything 278 00:15:32,865 --> 00:15:36,465 like, I'd forgotten about so many of the conversations we've 279 00:15:36,465 --> 00:15:36,865 had. 280 00:15:36,865 --> 00:15:39,825 Jon: Yeah. I need I haven't I honestly haven't really re 281 00:15:39,905 --> 00:15:41,985 relistened to many of those at all. Should do that. 282 00:15:41,985 --> 00:15:47,910 Justin: It's I find it kind of healthy, like, just yeah. 283 00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:52,710 There's something I mean, in terms of reflecting back and 284 00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:56,950 having perspective, it's so helpful to have this record of 285 00:15:56,950 --> 00:16:02,125 us talking things out. And at the beginning of the show, you 286 00:16:02,125 --> 00:16:05,325 know, we were motivated by, like, we're trying to build this 287 00:16:05,325 --> 00:16:07,325 product. We're trying to build this company. We're trying to 288 00:16:07,325 --> 00:16:08,365 replace this thing. 289 00:16:08,845 --> 00:16:14,290 And then the motivation changes, you know. And so I don't think 290 00:16:14,290 --> 00:16:17,650 it's existential or anything. I think I'm just again at a point 291 00:16:17,650 --> 00:16:20,690 where I'm like, okay, well, my kids are almost out of the 292 00:16:20,690 --> 00:16:21,250 house. 293 00:16:21,890 --> 00:16:22,530 Jon: Mhmm. 294 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:28,370 Justin: I'm 45. And I think the podcast hosting industry has 295 00:16:28,370 --> 00:16:33,385 definitely reached a point of maturity. Like, as I've gone and 296 00:16:33,385 --> 00:16:37,785 talked to the podcast industry is so unique in that the 297 00:16:37,785 --> 00:16:41,865 competitors are actually pretty friendly with each other. 298 00:16:42,970 --> 00:16:44,170 Jon: Yeah. It seems like we're 299 00:16:44,250 --> 00:16:47,530 Justin: recently lost Todd Cochran, the founder of 300 00:16:47,530 --> 00:16:55,770 Blueberry, who's a competitor. And he, you know, he was a 301 00:16:55,770 --> 00:17:00,895 friend. And his death, like, affected a lot of folks in the 302 00:17:00,895 --> 00:17:06,335 industry. But, you know, speaking to everybody, I think 303 00:17:06,335 --> 00:17:11,210 we've all recognized, like, podcast hosting now is a I mean, 304 00:17:11,210 --> 00:17:12,970 you said this too. It's kind of a commodity. 305 00:17:12,970 --> 00:17:14,650 It's we've matured. 306 00:17:14,650 --> 00:17:18,090 Jon: Yeah. They're all all the competitors are basically the 307 00:17:18,090 --> 00:17:20,810 same with, like, different little, you know, different 308 00:17:20,810 --> 00:17:22,650 little things on top that they've come up with on their 309 00:17:22,650 --> 00:17:25,715 own or little differences here and there. But ultimately, it's 310 00:17:25,715 --> 00:17:26,435 like the same 311 00:17:26,595 --> 00:17:27,155 Justin: Yeah. 312 00:17:27,155 --> 00:17:27,795 Jon: Stuff. 313 00:17:27,795 --> 00:17:31,555 Justin: And so, yeah, I think it's also been helpful for me to 314 00:17:32,515 --> 00:17:36,275 go back. And I've just been looking at, for example, all of 315 00:17:36,275 --> 00:17:40,490 our historical revenue numbers and looking at when, you know, 316 00:17:40,490 --> 00:17:45,610 when did we really grow and what have we done since. And the 317 00:17:45,610 --> 00:17:47,690 whole industry kind of experienced this, you know, you 318 00:17:47,690 --> 00:17:51,975 and I started Transistor when the market had just kind of 319 00:17:51,975 --> 00:17:56,215 expanded because of cereal, because podcasts were just kind 320 00:17:56,215 --> 00:17:59,415 of in the public consciousness for the first time. Saturday 321 00:17:59,415 --> 00:18:02,295 Night Live was doing skits on podcasts for the first time. You 322 00:18:02,295 --> 00:18:05,690 know, all of sudden, it was like, this was a new thing. 323 00:18:05,690 --> 00:18:07,770 It wasn't new, but this was a new thing that a lot of people 324 00:18:07,770 --> 00:18:10,810 were discovering. And the market went from being kind of this 325 00:18:10,810 --> 00:18:15,690 big, smaller to it just like expanded really quick. And so 326 00:18:15,690 --> 00:18:19,875 our first, you know, twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, we're 327 00:18:19,875 --> 00:18:24,915 just gobbling up market share. And then the pandemic happened. 328 00:18:25,075 --> 00:18:27,955 And again, perspective is so interesting because at the time, 329 00:18:28,515 --> 00:18:29,955 you and I were kind of struggling. 330 00:18:29,955 --> 00:18:34,370 It was just like the pandemic and all the politics and all, 331 00:18:34,370 --> 00:18:40,450 you know, the shutdown. It was like depressing. And I I think 332 00:18:40,450 --> 00:18:43,890 at the time, we didn't even quite recognize what was 333 00:18:43,890 --> 00:18:51,705 happening. But the company grew a ton in 2020. Like, it would if 334 00:18:51,865 --> 00:18:55,465 you look at the numbers, it's like in the hundreds of 335 00:18:55,465 --> 00:18:56,745 percentage points. 336 00:18:56,745 --> 00:19:03,230 Like, it's it it was just a massive increase. And the same 337 00:19:03,230 --> 00:19:10,510 with 2021. And since then, we've basically grown every year, but 338 00:19:10,510 --> 00:19:15,310 by the same amount. So that that chunk of new revenue we're 339 00:19:15,310 --> 00:19:21,095 getting every year has not changed a lot. And there's part 340 00:19:21,095 --> 00:19:24,215 of it for me, I think I was just like, man, we've built a lot of 341 00:19:24,215 --> 00:19:25,175 things since then. 342 00:19:26,055 --> 00:19:30,150 And, you know, part of building something is just because you 343 00:19:30,150 --> 00:19:32,870 wanna build it, because you wanna see it in the world as a 344 00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:36,550 podcaster, because I wanna use it myself. But another 345 00:19:36,550 --> 00:19:39,590 motivating part is like, oh, man. It'd be nice to see a 346 00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:41,510 direct correlation between 347 00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:41,990 Jon: Yeah. 348 00:19:42,070 --> 00:19:45,475 Justin: This thing that we're building and then new revenue. 349 00:19:45,795 --> 00:19:48,835 Jon: Yeah. But I think yeah. But I guess going back to your point 350 00:19:48,835 --> 00:19:52,515 of like at the beginning, we had these concrete goals of like, 351 00:19:52,515 --> 00:19:54,835 all right, we want to make this much so that at this point we 352 00:19:54,835 --> 00:19:59,180 can make this our full time job. Then we want to be each making 353 00:19:59,180 --> 00:20:03,340 this much amount of money at this point in time. Now it's 354 00:20:03,340 --> 00:20:06,220 like, yeah sure we want some more customers and more revenue 355 00:20:06,220 --> 00:20:08,300 but like to what end, what does that even achieve? 356 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:13,565 Like it's not going to change our lives anymore. So that 357 00:20:13,565 --> 00:20:17,245 motivating factor isn't there. I mean it's like I still get 358 00:20:17,245 --> 00:20:20,525 motivated by building certain features that are cool and 359 00:20:20,525 --> 00:20:24,000 exciting and customers might like it but at the end of the 360 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,360 day, it might not really move the needle or it might. And if 361 00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:30,240 it does move the needle, like what does moving the needle 362 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:31,440 mean? It does. 363 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,960 It's not going to dramatically change our lives. Yeah. Which I 364 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,395 think maybe is part of the burnout discussion of like what 365 00:20:39,395 --> 00:20:44,675 are you working towards because if it's just numbers and money, 366 00:20:45,795 --> 00:20:48,675 it's we're already at that point. 367 00:20:48,675 --> 00:20:50,755 Justin: Yeah. What's the what's the point? 368 00:20:51,690 --> 00:20:54,810 Jon: What's the motivating factor? So, yeah, it's I don't 369 00:20:54,810 --> 00:20:56,410 know I don't know that we know the answer to that at the 370 00:20:56,410 --> 00:20:58,570 moment. Right? Because we've been talking about it. 371 00:20:58,570 --> 00:21:00,570 Justin: Well, and this is what was so helpful about that chat 372 00:21:00,570 --> 00:21:06,065 with, Jason Cohen is he kind of gave me this framework. I can 373 00:21:06,065 --> 00:21:10,145 link it in the show notes, but it's a framework for getting 374 00:21:10,145 --> 00:21:14,065 what you want as a startup founder. And he basically says, 375 00:21:14,065 --> 00:21:18,785 okay. Well, you each John and Justin, you each need to ask, 376 00:21:18,945 --> 00:21:23,190 what do you want? And to be clear about it. 377 00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:26,230 And it might just be reaffirming something you've always felt. 378 00:21:26,310 --> 00:21:29,750 Like, maybe like in your case, maybe it hasn't changed that 379 00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:33,430 much. And maybe for me, it has changed, and I need to be honest 380 00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:37,165 about it. But just getting really clear about, okay, now, 381 00:21:37,405 --> 00:21:42,205 at this stage of my life, what is the next thing I want that's 382 00:21:42,205 --> 00:21:46,285 going to be motivating for me? Or it could even just be a 383 00:21:46,285 --> 00:21:46,845 thing. 384 00:21:47,085 --> 00:21:52,450 I mean, another thing that was kind of maybe affecting me was 385 00:21:52,450 --> 00:21:56,290 going, you know, do I like being in this industry? Like, I I need 386 00:21:56,290 --> 00:22:01,250 to ask myself that question. And, you know, every time I go 387 00:22:01,250 --> 00:22:04,735 to a podcast conference, I kind of have this feeling of like, do 388 00:22:04,735 --> 00:22:08,495 I still like this? There's been so much more focus on YouTube. 389 00:22:09,135 --> 00:22:12,255 And, you know, the big centralized platforms were 390 00:22:12,255 --> 00:22:13,695 already kind of in there. 391 00:22:13,695 --> 00:22:18,095 And it for me, there was something about these big 392 00:22:18,095 --> 00:22:22,710 platforms dominating the conversation that was 393 00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:27,430 demotivating. Because I've always been into the independent 394 00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:34,015 publishing and the openness of RSS. And, you know, for a while, 395 00:22:34,015 --> 00:22:36,815 that really fired me up getting more involved in the podcast 396 00:22:36,815 --> 00:22:41,215 standards project. And, you know, being like, okay, we're 397 00:22:41,215 --> 00:22:45,055 gonna, like, improve RSS. We're gonna innovate on top of RSS. 398 00:22:45,810 --> 00:22:49,810 But even that, you know, it there's like I think the worst 399 00:22:49,810 --> 00:22:54,210 feeling in the world is just this feeling of like, is is this 400 00:22:54,850 --> 00:23:00,130 effort that I'm applying to this thing, is it worth the output 401 00:23:00,275 --> 00:23:05,155 that we're getting? And likewise, is there somewhere 402 00:23:05,155 --> 00:23:12,035 else I could be applying that effort that would be maybe more 403 00:23:12,515 --> 00:23:19,130 motivating or energizing? And it's so hard to know. Because 404 00:23:19,130 --> 00:23:21,370 again, on one hand, things are great. 405 00:23:22,330 --> 00:23:22,650 Jon: Yeah. 406 00:23:22,650 --> 00:23:25,290 Justin: And on the other hand, there's part of me that's like, 407 00:23:26,090 --> 00:23:30,090 I wonder. I wonder. And maybe there's also for me, one 408 00:23:30,090 --> 00:23:33,015 difference between you and I is just like, because I still have 409 00:23:33,015 --> 00:23:37,895 all these kids, there's like, through college, supporting the 410 00:23:37,895 --> 00:23:43,415 kids through college, I just still have, you know, probably 411 00:23:43,415 --> 00:23:48,030 at least another decade of helping my kids get established 412 00:23:48,030 --> 00:23:55,230 as adults. And there's still part of me that is still kind of 413 00:23:55,230 --> 00:23:59,150 building up my my personal nest egg even for retirement and 414 00:23:59,150 --> 00:24:02,275 things like that. So financially, I'm still looking 415 00:24:02,275 --> 00:24:03,235 at my okay. 416 00:24:03,235 --> 00:24:05,555 I gotta support my kids through this. And then and then it's 417 00:24:05,555 --> 00:24:08,435 like, oh, and then I still gotta, like, continue to build 418 00:24:08,435 --> 00:24:14,115 up a good nest egg for when I retire. And so, yeah, I'm just 419 00:24:14,115 --> 00:24:19,510 always thinking about at 45, how many how many more years do I 420 00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:21,910 have in me? 421 00:24:21,910 --> 00:24:23,910 Jon: Right. Yeah. I mean, I think about the same thing and 422 00:24:23,910 --> 00:24:27,190 that, you know, we don't have kids and but it's at the same 423 00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:31,485 time, it's like, you got to prepare for some unknown future 424 00:24:31,485 --> 00:24:34,285 of like how much money are we gonna need or what's the 425 00:24:34,285 --> 00:24:37,405 retirement like or Yeah. How much is all this stuff gonna 426 00:24:37,405 --> 00:24:39,165 cost? It's like totally unknown at this point. 427 00:24:39,165 --> 00:24:41,885 It's not I don't think you can depend on anything anymore. 428 00:24:41,885 --> 00:24:45,570 Justin: Yeah. I mean and even as stable as transistor is, I think 429 00:24:45,570 --> 00:24:48,690 in the back of my mind, there's always like, uh-huh. Maybe we 430 00:24:48,690 --> 00:24:52,770 need to hedge our bets. You know? Maybe we need to and you 431 00:24:52,770 --> 00:24:55,650 see like, Ian Landsman at Helpspot is doing this right 432 00:24:55,650 --> 00:24:55,890 now. 433 00:24:55,890 --> 00:24:59,915 You know? He's he's building a second product. And, you know, 434 00:24:59,915 --> 00:25:02,475 Helpspot's doing fine, but there's always that feeling of 435 00:25:02,475 --> 00:25:05,915 like, okay, I got this thing that's working. But wouldn't 436 00:25:05,915 --> 00:25:09,435 wouldn't I feel like a dummy if in ten years, you know, 437 00:25:09,435 --> 00:25:13,930 everything had fallen apart and I hadn't also made a backup 438 00:25:13,930 --> 00:25:14,890 plan, you know? 439 00:25:14,890 --> 00:25:18,490 Jon: And that's and that's that is one option we could do is, as 440 00:25:18,490 --> 00:25:21,130 a company, to spin off a new thing. But I don't think we've 441 00:25:21,130 --> 00:25:24,490 necessarily had any of those ideas. A few a few here and 442 00:25:24,490 --> 00:25:27,995 there, they're I think they're all kind of related to 443 00:25:27,995 --> 00:25:28,875 podcasting and maybe 444 00:25:29,115 --> 00:25:31,755 Justin: Yeah. I think if we did something else, it would have to 445 00:25:31,755 --> 00:25:38,155 be adjacent to podcasting. Personally, I would like it to 446 00:25:38,155 --> 00:25:43,770 be in the creator market. You know? I've been thinking a lot 447 00:25:43,770 --> 00:25:49,770 about spots still, spots.fm, which was this idea you and I 448 00:25:49,770 --> 00:25:51,530 had early on. 449 00:25:52,730 --> 00:25:55,675 And at the time, we didn't pursue it because we were like 450 00:25:55,835 --> 00:25:57,755 we started going down that path and we're like, what are we 451 00:25:57,755 --> 00:26:01,355 doing? We're two people. We can't we can't do this. We 452 00:26:01,355 --> 00:26:04,235 decided to just, you know, double down on the core 453 00:26:04,235 --> 00:26:08,490 business. But there is something about sponsorships. 454 00:26:08,490 --> 00:26:14,330 And I think enabling creators to have any piece of content, which 455 00:26:14,330 --> 00:26:17,450 was the original vision of Spots, any piece of content 456 00:26:17,450 --> 00:26:22,165 sponsored, where you could have these sponsored blocks kind of 457 00:26:22,725 --> 00:26:27,925 everywhere, you know, and people can just grab a block, grab a 458 00:26:27,925 --> 00:26:31,685 spot, and say, oh, you're you're making a new YouTube video on 459 00:26:32,540 --> 00:26:35,420 the pharmaceutical industry. Well, I want to sponsor that 460 00:26:35,420 --> 00:26:39,180 episode. Or you write a weekly newsletter. Well, I want to 461 00:26:39,180 --> 00:26:45,020 sponsor your next six months. Or you you have sponsored posts on 462 00:26:45,020 --> 00:26:45,660 Instagram. 463 00:26:45,660 --> 00:26:50,305 Well, I want to sponsor five of them. And that might be worth 464 00:26:50,305 --> 00:26:55,185 looking at again, you know, that that might be one adjacent idea 465 00:26:55,185 --> 00:27:00,305 that we could pursue. The going back to Jason Cohen's framework, 466 00:27:00,305 --> 00:27:06,040 the the one thing I really loved that was, you know, identifying 467 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:10,840 what each person wants in a partnership. And then he said 468 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,960 both partners need to be equally committed to helping the other 469 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,225 person get what they want. And it's so simple, but I just 470 00:27:18,225 --> 00:27:21,345 thought that was such a beautiful way of of describing 471 00:27:21,505 --> 00:27:27,025 really any any partnership or marriage or anything. 472 00:27:28,865 --> 00:27:33,600 Having that that idea of, okay, this person's an individual and 473 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,200 they have things they want. I'm an individual. I have things I 474 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:43,600 want. And the key is we just need to be equally committed to 475 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,285 helping each other get what we want. Now that's not to say 476 00:27:47,285 --> 00:27:49,605 everything's realistic or everything's gonna happen. 477 00:27:49,605 --> 00:27:52,645 Jon: But Yeah. I mean, you know, if you want a yacht, like, 478 00:27:52,645 --> 00:27:53,045 Justin: that's I do 479 00:27:53,045 --> 00:27:55,045 Jon: want a yacht. Not gonna happen. Okay. 480 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,200 Justin: And the other thing that was helpful from Jason was just 481 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:06,320 saying, like, this is this is kind of a process you need to do 482 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,920 every year. I think we have done a version of this most years 483 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,845 where you and I have gotten together and at least, you know, 484 00:28:14,845 --> 00:28:17,965 reviewed things and said, okay, what do we want? And and he says 485 00:28:17,965 --> 00:28:22,685 it's messy, you know, like, you say, okay, you know, what what 486 00:28:22,685 --> 00:28:25,965 would need to be true, for example this is such a great 487 00:28:25,965 --> 00:28:30,360 question. What would need to be true for Justin to really like 488 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:38,520 this industry again? And on one hand, know, one thing that I've 489 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,920 been trying is like, well, I could get more involved with 490 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:45,545 podcast standards and invest more time and leadership and 491 00:28:45,545 --> 00:28:49,785 energy in the Podcast Standards Project. 492 00:28:49,785 --> 00:28:53,385 So I've been trying that out. And there's part of that's been 493 00:28:53,385 --> 00:28:57,070 really gratifying. You know, a part part of me going to this 494 00:28:57,070 --> 00:29:01,470 conference in Dallas, I was like, okay. Well, if if if I'm 495 00:29:01,470 --> 00:29:03,790 not feeling it there, I'm done. You know? 496 00:29:04,270 --> 00:29:09,645 And maybe unfortunately, or fortunately, there's just so 497 00:29:09,645 --> 00:29:12,445 many people that came up to me individually and said, I really 498 00:29:12,445 --> 00:29:17,405 appreciate your efforts on this Podcast Standards Project. And 499 00:29:17,405 --> 00:29:21,245 so okay. That you know, there's part of that that kind of that 500 00:29:21,245 --> 00:29:25,300 is motivating. But what else would need to be true for me to 501 00:29:25,300 --> 00:29:30,740 really feel good about the podcast industry? Unfortunately, 502 00:29:30,820 --> 00:29:36,100 it would mean Apple Podcasts would need to step up in a much 503 00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:36,740 bigger way. 504 00:29:38,535 --> 00:29:45,495 And, you know, I think Jason's kind of framing of this is if if 505 00:29:45,495 --> 00:29:51,255 you're expecting if you're basing your decisions on a hope 506 00:29:51,255 --> 00:29:54,910 that something will be true, and that thing is just very unlikely 507 00:29:54,910 --> 00:30:00,110 to be true, then you've got to consider that in terms of, like, 508 00:30:00,350 --> 00:30:01,310 what you're gonna do. 509 00:30:01,310 --> 00:30:04,190 Jon: Yeah. I mean, as as close as we are with the Apple people 510 00:30:04,190 --> 00:30:07,055 and as nice as they are, like, they're not they just they do 511 00:30:07,055 --> 00:30:09,055 their own thing, right, on their own timeline. 512 00:30:09,055 --> 00:30:09,855 Justin: And Yeah. 513 00:30:09,935 --> 00:30:12,655 Jon: Who knows what that is? And usually, it's, they announce it 514 00:30:12,655 --> 00:30:13,615 the last minute. 515 00:30:13,615 --> 00:30:17,615 Justin: Yeah. And it Man, it's yeah. It's kind of frustrating. 516 00:30:18,175 --> 00:30:19,615 Jon: Yeah. A little bit. And But 517 00:30:20,015 --> 00:30:23,440 Justin: You know? But this is the thing. Like, it's that's 518 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:28,080 kind of like, you know, you've got a friend, and you're like, 519 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:32,800 man, I I'm tired of this friend always, you know, doing this. 520 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,040 And it's like, well, maybe you should just not go to the bar 521 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,560 with your friend anymore. You know? 522 00:30:37,415 --> 00:30:41,735 And so I don't know what the answer is, but I think just 523 00:30:41,735 --> 00:30:43,335 processing some of that has been 524 00:30:43,655 --> 00:30:46,535 Jon: Yeah. I think from my from my side of things, it's a little 525 00:30:46,535 --> 00:30:49,735 different. I mean, I don't go to as many conferences as you. I 526 00:30:49,735 --> 00:30:53,290 don't I mean I'm in the podcast industry but I don't necessarily 527 00:30:53,290 --> 00:30:55,770 feel like that all the time because I'm just building the 528 00:30:55,770 --> 00:31:01,130 technology and that's what's interesting to me is writing 529 00:31:01,130 --> 00:31:03,770 code and building things that are interesting and fun and just 530 00:31:04,215 --> 00:31:07,735 you know, I like to see our customers use it and experience 531 00:31:07,735 --> 00:31:11,575 it and hopefully like it but it's not like I feel the 532 00:31:11,575 --> 00:31:15,415 industry bearing down on me in any way. Aside from the video 533 00:31:15,415 --> 00:31:17,895 stuff, which is a thing we've talked about for a long time and 534 00:31:18,535 --> 00:31:21,630 it's sort of like this, I don't know, elephant in the room of 535 00:31:21,630 --> 00:31:25,390 like, how do we do this the right way if we're gonna do it 536 00:31:25,390 --> 00:31:27,870 and try to like, I don't know, not even compete with YouTube 537 00:31:27,870 --> 00:31:32,750 but just like, I don't know, operate alongside of them and 538 00:31:32,750 --> 00:31:34,910 just give in and be like, well, we're not gonna beat them. 539 00:31:34,910 --> 00:31:37,045 So we might as well join 540 00:31:37,045 --> 00:31:37,685 Justin: them Yeah. 541 00:31:37,765 --> 00:31:38,565 Jon: Or something. 542 00:31:38,565 --> 00:31:40,805 Justin: I mean, the podcast industry has kinda always had 543 00:31:40,805 --> 00:31:47,125 that that because as independent as it is, like, the the protocol 544 00:31:47,125 --> 00:31:52,270 is independent, but the distribution has always been, 545 00:31:52,510 --> 00:31:55,950 you know, Apple Podcasts. And then there was other but even, 546 00:31:55,950 --> 00:32:00,270 like, overcast. Like, we we I would love to get a hold of 547 00:32:00,270 --> 00:32:05,155 Marco, And it's he's just hard to get ahold of. He does he's 548 00:32:05,155 --> 00:32:08,595 doing his thing and so Mhmm. We're all kind of, like, 549 00:32:08,595 --> 00:32:10,195 dependent on each other. 550 00:32:10,755 --> 00:32:15,980 And there is more collaboration possible. That's, again, one 551 00:32:15,980 --> 00:32:19,500 reason I got involved with Podcast Standards Project was I 552 00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:23,340 think we can advocate together as a group of hosting companies 553 00:32:23,340 --> 00:32:27,900 and independent apps. And, you know, we could speak as a group 554 00:32:27,585 --> 00:32:31,185 to Apple. We can speak as a group to Spotify and to YouTube. 555 00:32:31,425 --> 00:32:32,145 Yeah. 556 00:32:32,705 --> 00:32:39,185 But there is this dependency that, you know, to participate 557 00:32:39,185 --> 00:32:42,145 in the industry I mean, you felt this. Like, there's been some 558 00:32:42,145 --> 00:32:46,920 things you've had to build with Apple and Spotify and YouTube 559 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,720 that are real headaches, and we just have to do it because it's 560 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,080 just gotta get done. You know, I think those from the engineering 561 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,720 perspective, those have been the most demotivating. That's when 562 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:58,680 it's like 563 00:32:58,825 --> 00:33:01,305 Jon: Yeah. Those are pretty demotivating. Yeah. Some of the 564 00:33:01,305 --> 00:33:04,425 recent stuff too even. I mean, this is a tangent, but yeah. 565 00:33:04,425 --> 00:33:08,105 It's I was trying to get some stuff done with an integration 566 00:33:08,105 --> 00:33:12,025 on my own and then once Jason and I finally just sort of like 567 00:33:11,820 --> 00:33:14,460 started tag teaming get together, it was like way more 568 00:33:14,540 --> 00:33:18,540 exciting and just like way it's so yeah, just it's easy to 569 00:33:18,540 --> 00:33:22,380 forget that working with someone on something is way more 570 00:33:22,380 --> 00:33:23,500 motivating than not. 571 00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:26,300 Justin: Yeah. I think that's a good point. Like diagnosing 572 00:33:27,275 --> 00:33:32,315 burnout or lack of motivation, sometimes the answer is, like, I 573 00:33:32,315 --> 00:33:33,915 think they call that body doubling. 574 00:33:33,915 --> 00:33:37,355 Jon: Yeah. I I read about that recently only. Yeah. Like, the 575 00:33:37,355 --> 00:33:39,275 other day. And I was like, oh, interesting. 576 00:33:39,275 --> 00:33:42,010 Justin: I've definitely discovered that. Like, I, you 577 00:33:42,010 --> 00:33:47,290 know, I I I've hired my kids to help me do certain things and 578 00:33:47,290 --> 00:33:51,610 with the with my Canadian company. And that's, like, one 579 00:33:51,610 --> 00:33:55,145 of the things I'll often do is I'll be like, call them up and 580 00:33:55,145 --> 00:34:00,345 say, I just need you to be on the phone with me while I do 581 00:34:00,345 --> 00:34:06,185 these taxes. Yeah. And it is way more motivating to just have 582 00:34:06,185 --> 00:34:06,665 someone there 583 00:34:06,905 --> 00:34:07,145 Jon: Yeah. 584 00:34:07,145 --> 00:34:09,680 Justin: To be talking it out with them. You know, I'll get 585 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,480 frustrated and my daughter will be like, dad, like, just calm 586 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,960 down. Okay. What's, you know, three things you could do right 587 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:20,800 now to Yeah. Just we're social creatures, you know? 588 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:21,120 Jon: Yeah. 589 00:34:22,565 --> 00:34:26,245 Justin: So I think but even that is an interesting observation, 590 00:34:26,405 --> 00:34:30,725 which is I think what I like about this kind of reflecting 591 00:34:30,725 --> 00:34:38,560 time is it it helps me to question my reality. So I'll 592 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,280 give you an example. You and I have always been committed to 593 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:46,320 remote work. Remote work is in so many ways awesome. It enabled 594 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:47,440 you and I to start this company. 595 00:34:48,195 --> 00:34:53,235 It enables us to have people that live all over the world. It 596 00:34:53,235 --> 00:34:56,755 gives you all of us flexibility. You know, people have tried 597 00:34:56,755 --> 00:35:00,515 moving to Italy for a little while or going on a trip and 598 00:35:00,515 --> 00:35:04,570 just working while they're on the trip. It is incredible in so 599 00:35:04,570 --> 00:35:10,410 many ways. But it's also kind of refreshing to take a look at and 600 00:35:10,410 --> 00:35:13,050 go, in so many ways, work sucks. 601 00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:21,105 It sucks to not go into an office and have people there, 602 00:35:21,105 --> 00:35:24,385 you know, and and Yeah. Yeah. And be like, hey, like, can we 603 00:35:24,385 --> 00:35:28,865 just work on this together side by side? There's something about 604 00:35:28,865 --> 00:35:34,850 that that is amazing and that we're missing out on. Everything 605 00:35:34,850 --> 00:35:38,850 is a series of pros and cons, but it's it's nice to at least 606 00:35:38,850 --> 00:35:42,930 reflect on how could this be different? 607 00:35:42,930 --> 00:35:46,255 Or am I happy doing this? Would I be happier if it was 608 00:35:46,255 --> 00:35:46,815 different? 609 00:35:46,815 --> 00:35:51,135 Jon: Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, we have our we have our retreat 610 00:35:51,775 --> 00:35:56,575 coming up next week. In a couple days, we're leaving. I mean, 611 00:35:56,575 --> 00:35:59,380 it's probably something we should talk about, but it's I 612 00:35:59,380 --> 00:36:03,060 feel like every time we get together as a team it's like we 613 00:36:03,060 --> 00:36:06,100 get really excited and motivated about certain things and then we 614 00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:10,980 we all go home and it's like it just sort of slowly not really 615 00:36:10,980 --> 00:36:14,355 fizzles out but like you lose that momentum. 616 00:36:14,355 --> 00:36:18,195 And then some of it sticks and, you know, some of it doesn't but 617 00:36:18,195 --> 00:36:22,595 like I feel like if we were maybe all together more often, 618 00:36:23,235 --> 00:36:26,355 it would kind of, you know, linger on a little more. 619 00:36:26,355 --> 00:36:28,540 Justin: That's a good point. I didn't even think about that. 620 00:36:28,540 --> 00:36:31,900 But you're right. Like, I mean, again, it's pros and cons. There 621 00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:33,340 is a real advantage. 622 00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:36,860 You know, I'm here in this coworking place, and I have my 623 00:36:36,860 --> 00:36:40,300 own little cave here, my own little office. And the truth is 624 00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:43,025 a lot of time I close the door, and I'm just trying to focus on 625 00:36:43,025 --> 00:36:45,825 stuff in my own world. So there's an advantage to that. 626 00:36:46,465 --> 00:36:49,985 But Michael, who's on our team, is here in Vernon. And every 627 00:36:49,985 --> 00:36:52,305 once in a while, he'll stop by the coworking place, and he'll 628 00:36:52,305 --> 00:36:55,345 knock on my door and say, hey, I just want to ask you about this, 629 00:36:55,345 --> 00:36:56,705 or can we work on this together? 630 00:36:57,185 --> 00:37:02,830 And that there's an energy about that, which is just running into 631 00:37:02,830 --> 00:37:09,550 somebody. And it kind of the the thread. So if you start a thread 632 00:37:09,550 --> 00:37:12,270 at the retreat, and it's like, you know what we're gonna do? 633 00:37:12,270 --> 00:37:15,865 We're gonna focus on this. We're gonna build this. 634 00:37:15,945 --> 00:37:19,225 Know, like monetization is something we've wanted to do 635 00:37:19,705 --> 00:37:24,265 from the day you and I got together. We have mock ups of 636 00:37:24,265 --> 00:37:30,130 like a Stripe donation feature from almost like the first week. 637 00:37:30,850 --> 00:37:35,010 And I think part of the reason we haven't been able to execute 638 00:37:35,010 --> 00:37:40,850 on that is if the thread just kind of gets lost. It's easy to 639 00:37:40,850 --> 00:37:45,105 get lost when you're not like running to get into each other 640 00:37:45,105 --> 00:37:48,785 all the time. Like, if you and I were in the same town, and it's 641 00:37:48,785 --> 00:37:50,065 like, hey, John, let's go for coffee. 642 00:37:50,065 --> 00:37:51,985 And we're we walked to the coffee shop. And as we're 643 00:37:51,985 --> 00:37:54,705 talking, it's like, oh, man, whatever happened to that? Like, 644 00:37:54,705 --> 00:37:57,585 we we gotta we gotta do that thing, you know? I was just in 645 00:37:57,585 --> 00:38:01,100 Toronto, and went and hung out with Adam Waddon at his house. 646 00:38:01,100 --> 00:38:03,020 And it was so interesting. 647 00:38:03,420 --> 00:38:07,020 He has this beautiful home. But the first like, you go in the 648 00:38:07,020 --> 00:38:09,660 entryway, and then the first room off to the left is this 649 00:38:09,660 --> 00:38:13,905 kind of big workspace. And he's kind of set it up as like a co 650 00:38:13,905 --> 00:38:19,105 working space for him and Steve, his co founder. Steve comes by 651 00:38:19,105 --> 00:38:20,225 every single day. 652 00:38:20,705 --> 00:38:21,185 Jason: Really? 653 00:38:21,185 --> 00:38:24,305 Justin: Every single day. And it's just kind of like and while 654 00:38:24,305 --> 00:38:28,370 I was there, Caleb Porzio had driven up from Buffalo, and he 655 00:38:28,370 --> 00:38:33,170 was working out of that little space. And so there every single 656 00:38:33,170 --> 00:38:37,090 day, Adam wakes up, goes and makes himself a cup of coffee, 657 00:38:37,170 --> 00:38:43,555 goes in, and some days Steve's sitting there at the desk. And 658 00:38:43,555 --> 00:38:47,155 that's that's just such an interesting 659 00:38:48,195 --> 00:38:48,595 Jon: Yeah. 660 00:38:48,595 --> 00:38:52,115 Justin: To see how other people work and how they keep their 661 00:38:52,115 --> 00:38:56,595 energy and motivation. And the rest of their team is is remote. 662 00:38:56,595 --> 00:39:01,630 But yeah, there's there's there's something about being in 663 00:39:01,630 --> 00:39:06,030 person that is very motivating that you just lose when you're 664 00:39:06,350 --> 00:39:06,830 remote. 665 00:39:06,830 --> 00:39:07,870 Jon: Yeah, definitely. 666 00:39:07,870 --> 00:39:11,035 Justin: So and maybe there's ways to this is what, again, is 667 00:39:11,035 --> 00:39:12,875 great about Jason Cohen's framework because then you 668 00:39:12,955 --> 00:39:16,795 you're at least imagining, like, okay. What you can say, okay. 669 00:39:16,795 --> 00:39:20,315 You know what? I want to work on a team that's more colocated. 670 00:39:20,555 --> 00:39:20,875 Okay. 671 00:39:20,875 --> 00:39:23,920 Well, let's go explore that. And then you just explore all the 672 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,160 different paths and be like, okay. Well, I could move to Fort 673 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,040 Collins and be like, oh, then I'd have to live in The US. I 674 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:33,120 don't really wanna live in The US. John's not gonna move to 675 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:33,520 Canada. 676 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,625 He just got settled in Fort Collins. Okay. What's what are 677 00:39:36,625 --> 00:39:39,665 some of the things? I mean, we could just get way more 678 00:39:39,665 --> 00:39:46,945 disciplined about flying to see each other. We could have more 679 00:39:46,945 --> 00:39:47,745 team retreats. 680 00:39:48,410 --> 00:39:55,130 We could make sure that the next people we hire are in our 681 00:39:55,130 --> 00:39:58,490 respective towns. So we just have, you know Yeah. There's all 682 00:39:58,490 --> 00:40:04,555 sorts of things you could explore there. And or it could 683 00:40:04,555 --> 00:40:08,315 even just be, like, something as simple as, like, if if you and I 684 00:40:08,315 --> 00:40:10,795 record a podcast more frequently, we feel more 685 00:40:10,795 --> 00:40:12,155 connected and more motivated. And 686 00:40:12,395 --> 00:40:13,595 Jon: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. 687 00:40:13,595 --> 00:40:15,900 Justin: There there's all sorts of ways you can Yeah. 688 00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:16,700 Jon: Could be that. 689 00:40:16,860 --> 00:40:20,620 Justin: You can you can kinda manage that. Running a company 690 00:40:20,620 --> 00:40:26,860 is interesting because I I think this is something that you just 691 00:40:26,860 --> 00:40:32,075 can't keep having to learn is, you know, you and I come 692 00:40:32,075 --> 00:40:35,595 together to work on this idea. And even that, any sort of 693 00:40:35,595 --> 00:40:41,115 partnership is already has its own challenge. Like, you are 694 00:40:41,115 --> 00:40:44,710 kind of glued to that other person in a way. 695 00:40:45,110 --> 00:40:45,510 Jon: Mhmm. 696 00:40:45,510 --> 00:40:50,790 Justin: And and there's this this dynamic that Jason's 697 00:40:50,790 --> 00:40:54,390 exposed, which is, yeah, we both have to be kind of committed to 698 00:40:54,710 --> 00:40:57,895 get helping the other person get what they want. It And was so 699 00:40:57,895 --> 00:41:01,015 easy in the beginning because, basically, it was like, we both 700 00:41:01,015 --> 00:41:01,975 wanted the freedom. 701 00:41:01,975 --> 00:41:04,215 Jon: It was the same thing. Yeah. We wanted the exact same 702 00:41:04,215 --> 00:41:05,975 thing. And now, I don't know, maybe not. 703 00:41:05,975 --> 00:41:09,735 Justin: Maybe not. But also, I think what what's interesting 704 00:41:09,735 --> 00:41:14,040 is, you know, one of the things that I think ended up being 705 00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,080 motivating for us was like, you know what? Like, it'd be like, 706 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,240 you wanted to work with another engineer, and I wanted to work 707 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:22,200 some other people, and I didn't want to do customer support all 708 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,825 the time. And, you know, so Yeah. We ended up hiring other 709 00:41:24,825 --> 00:41:25,785 people to help us. 710 00:41:25,785 --> 00:41:29,705 It's been great. Like, people are continuously astounded. I 711 00:41:30,025 --> 00:41:32,025 again, when I was in Dallas, we were sitting around at this 712 00:41:32,025 --> 00:41:35,785 table with a very large podcast company that does advertising 713 00:41:35,785 --> 00:41:39,560 everything. And she turned to me and she goes, how many people 714 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,600 are on your team? I said, oh, we we have six. 715 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,280 And she's like, what? And Dean Schrizlin was there kinda 716 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,320 laughing, and he's like, yeah, their team is incredibly 717 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,865 efficient. So it's been it's been incredible to have this 718 00:41:52,865 --> 00:41:57,345 little team. But then it just it does add this other dynamic, 719 00:41:57,345 --> 00:42:03,410 which is John and I the team needs direction. The team needs 720 00:42:03,410 --> 00:42:04,210 leadership. 721 00:42:04,210 --> 00:42:08,290 The team needs and each team member also has their own 722 00:42:08,290 --> 00:42:10,370 individual things that are motivating them. 723 00:42:10,370 --> 00:42:10,850 Jon: Yeah. 724 00:42:11,410 --> 00:42:17,170 Justin: And John and I need to and I think this became even 725 00:42:17,170 --> 00:42:21,735 more prescient because you and I knew we had this retreat that 726 00:42:21,735 --> 00:42:24,455 we're going on. And we're like, what is going to be the focus of 727 00:42:24,455 --> 00:42:28,295 the retreat? Like, we want to do some work sessions together. And 728 00:42:28,295 --> 00:42:31,720 then we also want to be able to say, hey, folks, like, we're 729 00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:34,760 steering the ship in this direction. You know? 730 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:40,040 So John and I need to get aligned. We need to decide, 731 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,800 first of all, personally, what do we individually want? Right? 732 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,715 Like, we don't want to be going after something that's somebody 733 00:42:47,715 --> 00:42:51,955 else's dream. We wanna be pursuing something that we want. 734 00:42:52,355 --> 00:42:55,075 And then we have to translate that into a vision and a 735 00:42:55,075 --> 00:42:59,100 direction for the team. Think that's what brought up this 736 00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:00,220 whole idea of sabbaticals. 737 00:43:00,220 --> 00:43:02,460 Jon: Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. 738 00:43:04,860 --> 00:43:09,740 Justin: So, yeah, I one one thing that we've talked about 739 00:43:09,740 --> 00:43:12,620 for a while, we talked about this almost from the beginning, 740 00:43:13,735 --> 00:43:18,135 is this idea of it'd be nice after we'd been working on 741 00:43:18,135 --> 00:43:23,815 transistor for five, six, seven years to take a sabbatical. 742 00:43:24,535 --> 00:43:27,335 Mhmm. And as I was talking to Jason Cohen, he was also like, 743 00:43:27,390 --> 00:43:29,950 he's like, you know what? Like, also, you've been doing this for 744 00:43:29,950 --> 00:43:34,110 almost eight years. He's like, it's time to take a break. 745 00:43:34,270 --> 00:43:39,710 I will say you and I have not been great at taking breaks. 746 00:43:39,855 --> 00:43:41,215 We've taken a few. 747 00:43:41,215 --> 00:43:43,455 Jon: I mean, we've taken vacations, but I do feel like we 748 00:43:43,455 --> 00:43:46,815 never really disconnect that much. Yeah. And it's it's hard 749 00:43:46,815 --> 00:43:48,015 for me to do that. 750 00:43:48,015 --> 00:43:49,055 Justin: Yeah. It's hard for me too. 751 00:43:49,055 --> 00:43:53,250 Jon: Yeah. I mean, the idea of a sabbatical is, like, exciting 752 00:43:53,250 --> 00:43:58,050 but sort of terrifying at one point. At the same time like I 753 00:43:58,050 --> 00:44:01,090 think we're both so used to it. It's just like we've been doing 754 00:44:01,090 --> 00:44:03,570 it for so long it's like part of our lives. We don't hate it. 755 00:44:03,970 --> 00:44:09,045 We're not we're not miserable. So it's not like the stress of 756 00:44:09,045 --> 00:44:11,925 it is forcing us to take a sabbatical but I think it would 757 00:44:11,925 --> 00:44:15,525 probably be good to take a break and like let your mind kind of 758 00:44:15,525 --> 00:44:20,580 wander on other stuff and have some other, I don't know, goals 759 00:44:20,580 --> 00:44:26,580 lined up that you wanna Mhmm. Personally do or whatever. But, 760 00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:28,500 yeah, the thought of it is 761 00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:34,180 Justin: is interesting. Little scary. I I think the hard thing 762 00:44:34,180 --> 00:44:37,675 for me and this isn't just with transistor, but you and I are 763 00:44:37,835 --> 00:44:40,955 this is why one reason you and I worked well together for so long 764 00:44:40,955 --> 00:44:46,715 is we like to work. And there's something like, I'm just used to 765 00:44:46,715 --> 00:44:53,110 getting up every day and cranking this crank of work. And 766 00:44:53,350 --> 00:44:53,750 Mhmm. 767 00:44:53,750 --> 00:44:58,310 I have been doing that almost every single day, almost every 768 00:44:58,310 --> 00:45:06,125 single week since I was 20. Get up every day. Yeah. And I'm just 769 00:45:06,125 --> 00:45:09,405 used to pulling this crank. Same. 770 00:45:09,405 --> 00:45:14,685 Yeah. I yeah. We're this is we're very similar. And I think 771 00:45:15,005 --> 00:45:20,080 it's it is a bit scary to think like, I don't know what my life 772 00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,640 would be like if I'm not consuming this is kind of the 773 00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:29,440 thing I hate about weekends and vacations is that if I truly 774 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,295 disconnect, I've gotten a bit better at this, but, like, 775 00:45:33,295 --> 00:45:39,135 normally, I'm just activated in a way that is just kind of 776 00:45:39,135 --> 00:45:44,975 always on consuming information, acting on information, putting 777 00:45:44,975 --> 00:45:48,840 things in motion. And putting things in motion, it kind of 778 00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,640 requires that you continually crank this crank. 779 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:58,040 You're continuously consuming some sort of fire hose from 780 00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,080 customers and from the internet and from the industry and 781 00:46:01,375 --> 00:46:04,975 keeping your eyes wide open for opportunities and looking at 782 00:46:04,975 --> 00:46:14,090 threats. It's just always on my mind. To think about not being 783 00:46:14,090 --> 00:46:18,090 on that treadmill or that hamster wheel is kind of like 784 00:46:18,090 --> 00:46:20,650 what what would happen to me. Yeah. You know? 785 00:46:20,650 --> 00:46:21,930 Gavin: Yeah. I think yeah. I think you'd have 786 00:46:21,930 --> 00:46:24,650 Jon: to, like, preplan on replacing that with something 787 00:46:24,650 --> 00:46:27,050 else. Mhmm. Whatever that whatever that may be. 788 00:46:27,050 --> 00:46:29,930 Justin: But I would be interested if anyone out here 789 00:46:29,025 --> 00:46:34,305 out in listener land has done a sabbatical or even you know, one 790 00:46:34,305 --> 00:46:36,305 thing I think you and I have been throwing around is like, 791 00:46:36,305 --> 00:46:38,625 man, a three month sabbatical, which is what we've always kind 792 00:46:38,625 --> 00:46:42,385 of thought of, is there's something about that that just 793 00:46:42,385 --> 00:46:45,790 feels overwhelming. And I have friends that like worked for 794 00:46:45,790 --> 00:46:50,270 automatic, which did three months sabbaticals. They said 795 00:46:50,270 --> 00:46:53,150 that sometimes it felt like their first sabbaticals were 796 00:46:53,390 --> 00:46:56,925 there's so much pressure leading up to it. And, you know, then 797 00:46:56,925 --> 00:47:01,165 they ended up feeling like a lot of it was just like it was too 798 00:47:01,165 --> 00:47:05,805 overwhelming thinking about a three month block at first. And 799 00:47:05,805 --> 00:47:10,090 so, you know, I've been talking about even just like me taking a 800 00:47:10,090 --> 00:47:16,890 concerted vacation that's two, three, four weeks long and 801 00:47:16,890 --> 00:47:20,570 practicing truly disconnected. 802 00:47:20,570 --> 00:47:22,170 Jon: Deleting all deleting all the apps on 803 00:47:22,170 --> 00:47:25,585 Justin: your phone. Deleting everything off my phone, just 804 00:47:25,585 --> 00:47:29,345 putting systems in place, like, so other people are you know, 805 00:47:29,345 --> 00:47:33,745 any emails get looked at. And the advantage you and I have is 806 00:47:33,745 --> 00:47:40,250 that we are two people. And so we can trade off. Like, there's 807 00:47:40,250 --> 00:47:43,130 always going to be a leader available. 808 00:47:43,290 --> 00:47:43,850 You know? 809 00:47:43,850 --> 00:47:49,690 Jon: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for for me, I would I think my concern 810 00:47:49,690 --> 00:47:55,085 now is, like, I would feel bad leaving Jason as like the sole 811 00:47:55,085 --> 00:47:59,405 engineer because you know I was in that spot for what a couple 812 00:47:59,405 --> 00:48:03,725 years and it was it's a lot. I mean you know things run well 813 00:48:03,725 --> 00:48:07,770 but like you know problems happen and then like Jason has 814 00:48:07,770 --> 00:48:10,490 stuff he wants to do that doesn't involve work and he's 815 00:48:10,490 --> 00:48:13,290 not always gonna be around. So that'd be something we'd have to 816 00:48:13,290 --> 00:48:13,850 figure out. 817 00:48:13,850 --> 00:48:16,890 Yeah. Talk, you know, talk to Jason or like find someone to 818 00:48:16,890 --> 00:48:19,450 help out temporarily or even permanently and who knows? Yeah. 819 00:48:19,450 --> 00:48:21,050 Justin: I don't It'd be interesting if there's like a 820 00:48:21,050 --> 00:48:26,945 like a on demand consultant that you could just bring in for 821 00:48:26,945 --> 00:48:31,585 those times. Like, just say, like, hey. Like, we we just need 822 00:48:31,585 --> 00:48:39,350 somebody to call who knows our stack and our especially our 823 00:48:39,350 --> 00:48:44,310 infrastructure stuff that can Mhmm. Parachute in if we need 824 00:48:44,310 --> 00:48:46,070 somebody. Yeah. 825 00:48:46,070 --> 00:48:49,030 But, I mean, that might just not exist. That's one of the reason 826 00:48:49,430 --> 00:48:55,725 you hire people is that it's it's it's nice to have, you 827 00:48:55,725 --> 00:49:03,485 know, some folks that can can be kinda always on. Yeah. Yeah. I 828 00:49:03,485 --> 00:49:07,160 mean, there's always gonna be obstacles. 829 00:49:07,240 --> 00:49:09,800 But I do think in terms of, like, compared to a lot of other 830 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:18,435 teams, we're a small team, but there is enough help and overlap 831 00:49:18,435 --> 00:49:23,955 there. Mhmm. And the other thing is that you can be disconnected, 832 00:49:24,995 --> 00:49:29,875 but, you know, the rule is, hey. Like, if you need to text me or 833 00:49:29,875 --> 00:49:33,680 call me, you have my text you have my my text and my phone, 834 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:38,800 and, you know, I will likely be in somewhere that has cell phone 835 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:43,920 coverage. So the I mean, unless I'm like, you know, unless I go 836 00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:48,545 back to Guatemala and hike that volcano, I might be but even 837 00:49:48,545 --> 00:49:50,065 then even then, we're we're 838 00:49:50,145 --> 00:49:51,025 Jon: Even then, probably cell 839 00:49:51,025 --> 00:49:53,505 Justin: phone service. Worst case scenario, if there's no 840 00:49:53,505 --> 00:49:58,065 cell phone service, and let's say everything goes to hell for 841 00:49:58,065 --> 00:50:02,520 forty eight hours, it's probably still gonna be fine. Like, yes, 842 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:06,680 that would be hard. Yes, it would be stressful. But even in 843 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,320 the worst case scenario, like, everything's falling down, 844 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:14,680 there's, you know, servers are on fire and whatever. 845 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:22,705 Even then, it wouldn't I I think it would still be fine. You 846 00:50:22,705 --> 00:50:23,185 know? 847 00:50:23,185 --> 00:50:25,585 Jon: Yeah. Could be. I mean, there's, you know, there's 848 00:50:25,585 --> 00:50:29,665 scenarios where it wouldn't be, but that's that's gonna be that 849 00:50:29,665 --> 00:50:31,025 would be pretty rare, I think. 850 00:50:31,025 --> 00:50:34,020 Justin: Well, this is good, man. I'm glad glad we got to do it. I 851 00:50:34,020 --> 00:50:38,340 I think let's try I I'm gonna try to put this on our schedule 852 00:50:38,740 --> 00:50:43,940 weekly again and just see how it feels. Man. But if I put it on 853 00:50:43,940 --> 00:50:47,135 weekly, then we might skip 854 00:50:47,375 --> 00:50:48,335 Jon: Maybe month. Maybe it 855 00:50:48,335 --> 00:50:49,775 Justin: would be month. But at least I'll put it on the 856 00:50:49,775 --> 00:50:54,255 schedule. You might not believe this, but we still have people 857 00:50:54,255 --> 00:50:55,855 supporting us on Patreon. 858 00:50:55,855 --> 00:50:57,710 Jon: I can't believe it. 859 00:50:57,710 --> 00:50:58,670 Justin: All these years. 860 00:50:58,670 --> 00:51:01,230 Jon: I mean, that's probably thanks to you actually posting 861 00:51:01,230 --> 00:51:03,150 some episodes once in a while with other people. 862 00:51:03,150 --> 00:51:03,710 Justin: That's right. 863 00:51:03,710 --> 00:51:04,430 Jon: So thank you. 864 00:51:04,430 --> 00:51:08,590 Justin: That's right. Yeah. We've got Pascal from sharpen. 865 00:51:08,590 --> 00:51:10,670 Page. We got rewardful.com. 866 00:51:10,670 --> 00:51:15,935 We've got Greg Park, Mitchell Davis from recruitkit.com.au. 867 00:51:16,415 --> 00:51:22,735 Marcel Folle from wearebold.af. Bill Condo. Ward from 868 00:51:22,735 --> 00:51:24,895 memberspace.com. Evandro Sassy. 869 00:51:25,370 --> 00:51:27,690 Now we're getting into the names that have been here forever. 870 00:51:27,770 --> 00:51:33,050 Austin Loveless, Michael Sitver, Colin Gray from Alitu. Nice to 871 00:51:33,050 --> 00:51:36,170 see you, Colin. And Dave Giunta. 872 00:51:36,650 --> 00:51:38,490 Jon: Giunta. You got to meet Dave. 873 00:51:38,490 --> 00:51:42,705 Justin: Yeah. Dave was at the wedding. Dave and I became fast 874 00:51:42,705 --> 00:51:44,785 buds there. It was Yeah. 875 00:51:44,785 --> 00:51:45,425 Jon: Dave's great. 876 00:51:45,425 --> 00:51:49,505 Justin: We've I was just texting with Dave yesterday. I I I have 877 00:51:49,505 --> 00:51:54,945 a long text message thread with Dave. Yeah. Yeah. It's been nice 878 00:51:54,945 --> 00:51:58,640 to keep that keep that connection going. 879 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:02,400 Jon: Yeah. Thanks. Thanks to everyone for keeping, like, 880 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,640 continually supporting us. Yeah. During our absence. 881 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:11,045 Justin: And also just being around, you know, that's that's 882 00:52:11,045 --> 00:52:17,525 one thing I think I've realized is about this show is, you know, 883 00:52:17,525 --> 00:52:20,565 we started this journey and then just so many other people joined 884 00:52:20,565 --> 00:52:24,085 us. And whether it was just listening, whether it was 885 00:52:24,085 --> 00:52:27,090 listening and writing us an email, whether it was listening 886 00:52:27,250 --> 00:52:33,170 and, you know, sending us a DM with some ideas, whether so many 887 00:52:33,170 --> 00:52:37,410 listeners became customers. Yeah. Some listeners became 888 00:52:37,410 --> 00:52:40,985 employees, like Josh Anderton was a longtime listener. You 889 00:52:40,985 --> 00:52:41,385 know? 890 00:52:41,385 --> 00:52:43,465 Jon: I mean, we just had an we just had a customer the other 891 00:52:43,465 --> 00:52:46,905 day say something in our customer support chat about, 892 00:52:46,905 --> 00:52:50,025 like, he, you know, enjoyed listening to the early episodes 893 00:52:50,185 --> 00:52:50,985 Justin: Isn't that wild? 894 00:52:51,065 --> 00:52:53,065 Jon: Of this podcast. Yeah. It's like, what? 895 00:52:53,545 --> 00:52:57,800 Justin: I'm just blown away by it. We appreciate it. If you 896 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,240 want us to be back every week, let us know. 897 00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:04,680 Jon: Just yell yell at us. Yeah. Just 898 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,960 Justin: every every Friday, just, send us a message saying, 899 00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,275 hey, guys, can you please record? And then Yeah. Maybe if 900 00:53:11,275 --> 00:53:13,355 we get enough nudges, we'll get back on the mics. 901 00:53:13,515 --> 00:53:14,155 Jon: Alright, 902 00:53:14,475 --> 00:53:15,835 Justin: everyone. Till next time. 903 00:53:15,835 --> 00:53:16,795 Jon: Yeah. See you next time. 904 00:53:16,795 --> 00:53:17,035 Justin: Bye.