The Hidden Reason Businesses Stop Scaling With Ashley Bright

Speaker A: Ashley, welcome to Breaking Work. How are you today?

Speaker B: I'm doing excellent. How are you doing, Mike?

Speaker A: I'm doing very well. Um, you have an interesting career path, uh, and I think a lot of people can gain a lot of insight from what you've gone through. And so I'm excited to get into the weeds. Let's just start with, um, you know, 15 years in the advertising agency realm. Um, how did you get involved and how did you first decide to kind of go in that direction? What?

Speaker B: Well, I think at the time, I mean, I was, as a teenager, I was such a fan of storytelling. I was one of those kind of nerds back in the day that was swapping VHS tapes in and out of the machine, trying to record shows or clips or different things. And looking back on it, I think it was sort of a safe move. But I just loved these little, uh, moments of story and things like those Nike commercials and others at the time, I think, really influenced by that sort of very famous Apple commercial, kind of ushered in this whole wave of really, I don't know, just kind of a new approach to advertising and storytelling. And so I was hooked as a teenager and just kind of followed that through.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting how kind of the seeds of what we're really interested in early on in life and how they help guide our choices, or sometimes we avoid them and end up, you know, coming back to them. But this idea, this nugget of storytelling, of film, and then you sort of described advertising as the safe play. What did you kind of mean by that?

Speaker B: Well, I think, you know, in the back of my mind, I always wanted to pursue film. You know, I wanted to become a commercial director and then move into film. And, um, you know, there's a variety of different, very prominent directors that kind of, that was their path. And so I think in the back of my mind, that was where I was going. However, I don't, you know, we can talk about this a little bit and I'm sure it'll come up. But there was that pursuing the safe path, the stable path. And, you know, it, as we've talked previously, that path kind of got interrupted by a few things. And ultimately I didn't pursue that. But. And I mean, honestly, I. I say storytelling now like it was this crystal clear idea I had in my head, but I didn't even, even back then, I didn't really have the language to understand. That's what it was. It was advertising that made films, little films that told a story, but I wasn't seeing the fact that it was storytelling was really at the heart of what I loved and what I was ch.

Speaker A: What were you seeing? If it wasn't the storytelling, what were you seeing?

Speaker B: Well, it's. I mean, you know, as you get older and they talk about hindsight's 20 20, it's easy to look back and see the threads. But I think. I'm not sure. I mean, it's so obvious now, you know, looking back on it, that it was storytelling, it was character development, it was creating these situations. It was all of those things that pull us into, whether it be a TV commercial, a, uh, film, a short film, whatever it was, was all those things that pulled us in. But I just. I couldn't see it at the time. And so I think TV commercials somehow felt like this vehicle for that and joke that I was sort of that nerd that was. I would get like, weepy watching TV commercials. Which just sounds so weird when you say it, uh, out loud, especially back then. Cause I think so much of the advertising the majority of people were seeing was pretty boring, pretty straightforward, uninteresting. But there were those, like, little nuggets. And I remember tracking down. I don't know how I was doing it, but tracking down kind of those. You know, every year there were sort of the best commercials of the year. And somehow I was tracking those things down. And I remember I had this big coffee table book that was like, shy at days, like first 25 years or whatever it was. And I don't know, I just glommed onto that. And maybe it was the fact that it had a structure to it. I could see that structure. It made sense, you know, 30 seconds, 60 seconds. You have a concept, you create this story arc and these characters. And somehow that maybe seemed more attainable than the idea of a, uh, like a feature film. And you've got like hundreds or thousands of people involved and you gotta write scripts and get money and, you know, and I just. I didn't have any, I think, concept of it at the time. And you know, of course this is pre Internet, so it wasn't something I could sort of look up and understand intimately.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think we all kind of run into this. We have sort of an idealized version, romantic, uh, version of what we might do. And that comes in conflict with kind of realities or our perceived realities, like what are the paths open to us and which ones are risky and which ones are not. And it's a really difficult thing to. To figure out as a. As a young person, which is why we have to give ourselves, you know, grace for not having the, uh, the answers at those times and, and letting our experience as we go bring us back to those things if needed, or, or show us a new direction. So the storytelling piece, the film advertising seemed like a, like a good way of maybe merging those, at least at the time. And you spent roughly 15 years in, in that, in that world. Right? Walk us through your experience then of, of kind of being in that, that corporate frame within the advertising industry.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I'll preface it by saying that even though I've, I've talked already about TV commercials and that kind of aspect, when I was in college, I had two things happen. One was I got disillusioned by the reality of the commercial nature. Duh. Of advertising. This, you know, we're trying to sell a product here, we're trying to convert. I struggled with that, you know, this idea of manipulation and trying to sell it. And then also, you know, this was the mid-90s and so this, this thing that, that we had sort of just heard on the periphery, this thing called the Internet was happening. And so yes, I pursued advertising, but it wasn't in a traditional sense in terms of like a, A, uh, television commercial centric advertising. It was getting into more of that digital advertising, um, those digital experiences through websites and, and the early emergence of social media and, and I, I think I. A new way to do this. There was something interesting and I guess cutting edge at the time. And so that was actually ultimately where, when I got out of college, I pursued that professionally. And so I was around, you know, user experience and copywriting and developers. And so I never really went, uh, you know, there's a bunch of paths that sort of veered from that. You know, I'm going to become a commercial director and make the next, you know, Oscar winning film. But sorry to your question. I mean, reframe the question for me. I think I've veered off path here.

Speaker A: No worries. No, I was just, just asking how you, what, what your journey was like in those 15 years now, being out into the actual like world of, of, of working, making money, um, you know, within this industry.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, okay, so, yeah, uh, I mean, I think what happened. So at some point in that journey, probably in college somewhere I'd identified, Creative director was sort of like the pinnacle of, of success in that industry. That was the title that was, that meant you got to, you know, to a certain extent call teams, things like that. And so I was always in pursuit of that. And ironically I got there Relatively quickly. I think my first associate creative director role, I was probably eight years, maybe seven years out, eight years out of college. And uh, so it was kind of this like, whoa, I've made it. This is, you know, I've got the title, I've, you know, I can command respect, quote unquote. I could go to client meetings and lead teams and things like that. The reality though was it, you know, as you move through that space, and I'm sure many people can relate to this, as you get higher in the organization, you're starting to deal with more of the bureaucracy, more of the egos, more of the sort of minutiae of leadership roles. And I was still a purist, I still wanted to create interesting work. I enjoyed guiding teams to produce great work and do their best work. And I found I was getting more and more bogged down in that leadership role and I wasn't particularly good at it. I think I'm a good leader of teams, but it was really managing up, managing the people above me, managing the budgets, managing scope, things like that were kind of draining. And especially because a lot of the clients we were dealing with were, you know, Microsoft and Amazon and you know, big players. And so there was a lot of complexity and friction and compromise. And again, this is where I just don't think I had the maturity at that point to recognize it. I was, I was sort of, you know, moving forward. And we talked a little bit this on a previous call, that I was getting rewarded for it, for it financially, I was getting promotions, I had other agencies wanting to hire me away and so I, you know, okay, well I'm, this is the path forward, I might as well keep, keep going at it. And it was interesting. Each new role I had, I think it chipped away a little bit more at my self esteem, my curiosity, uh, and I was hungry for something else, but I just didn't have the clarity to see what that was. At the time when you thought about

Speaker A: that creative director role, what was it in your mind before you experienced it? What was. You talked about calling the shots, but. Mhm. What was it in your mind?

Speaker B: That is a good question because to be honest, I'm not even sure where that particular title popped into my head, but I guess in the sphere of advertising, design agency world that was because it was still, it had the word creative in the title and so I hadn't sold out entirely. I wasn't, you know, uh, a business executive, I wasn't a development executive, I wasn't those things. And so it still had creative. And. And so somehow I think that that just kind of stuck in my head. And this was pre. You know, the Don Draper and Mad Men series, which I think obviously popularized it and brought it to the masses. And. And I think. Actually, let me. Let me rethink about that again. I mean, I mentioned earlier I had that. The. The Chia Day coffee table book. And in that book, it, you know, you could see who created these things. And there was an individual named Lee Clow, which, um, if you haven't heard of, look him up. He's sort of one of the godfathers of advertising. And he created incredible things. And, you know, he'd created stuff for Apple and Apple Music, and he'd done just a ton of really great stuff. And so I think in retrospect now, um, it's literally crystallizing as we talk. I think there was aspects of that where it was like, okay, he's at that pinnacle. He is, you know, coming up with the concepts. He's leading things. He should. And he was obviously shooting TV commercials, which was, you know, I think, something in my head that I wanted to do. The irony was that because I'd gone into more of that digital experiential design side of advertising that was emerging in the late 90s, early 2000s, we lamented the fact that, you know, the New York agency always got the big budget for the TV commercials and the campaigns, and we were the quote, unquote, digital agency. And so we usually got the scraps of what was left over. And so our projects just didn't have the budgets. We didn't have the sway. We didn't have a lot of that cachet that those other agencies that were doing the TV commercials did. And so I think there was a. There was a level of frustration there. And I did have colleagues in college, uh, friends in college that went more that commercial route and went and did TV commercials. And I think there was always that. I don't know, like, I'd sort of. I'd gone the wrong course. I. You know, there was a, uh. Between that lack of satisfaction, getting more and more into the weeds, and then just feeling like, this isn't really that creative. This isn't really that exciting. You know, all those things sort of swirled. And then when we, you know, I had my first son, was born in 2007, and so that kind of really started giving me a different perspective, you know, this awareness of what really was driving me, and what did I want him to see and what did I want my legacy to be and a lot of things swirling around in your head. I don't know if for parents out there, you know, that it kind of is a pretty life changing, life altering experience. So I was ripe for that. I was 10 years out of college, I was starting to kind of look around and figure things out.

Speaker A: Yeah, what you're describing really well is kind of this universal feeling I think a lot of us have, and I call it the wedge. Just where like you learn over time, even as you progress up the ladder and get more responsibility, all of these signals are given to you that it's hard to make sense of, but it's basically driving this wedge between, you know, that idealized version of what you thought your path was going to look like and what it is turning out to be and the accumulation of experience. You know, it takes a while and sometimes it takes a cataclysmic event, but sometimes it just takes that, that wedge getting wide enough for people to, you know, start to take stock and start to, to analyze a little bit deeper what they really want, what they're best at, uh, all of those types of things. And so you kind of had a moment and I don't, I, I don't remember exactly in the linear of things, but you did have a moment here where things kind of came to a head at least a little bit, where you ended up being thrown under the bus. Again, I don't remember if this is exactly the timeline, but there was a point where, where that path sort of ended a little bit. Can you describe how that went?

Speaker B: Sure. So, uh, you know, I'd been kind of moving through the ranks, so to speak, moving from agency to agency. And at the time, I mean this was the, the early thousands, mid 2000s, 2007, 8ish. And so especially in the agency space, digital agency spaces specifically, there was a lot of, I think it was an expectation that you just, you moved, you know, you were moving around, you were moving from place to place, looking for new things, upping your rates, things like that. And so I was doing that too. I had, I had agencies actively approaching me. And again, my, my path was. And we, we haven't really gotten into this, but sort of, you know, my upbringing and things like that is what drove me to, I think, pursue stability, pursue title, pursue money, you know, with, with sort of while at the same time wanting creative freedom and wanting curiosity, which they're kind of a little bit counter depending on how you, how you frame it. And so yeah, I mean life kind of sometimes just blindsides you and so I'd had my, my son was born in 2007. So that got me kind of like starting HM to think about things differently. And also like really, I think the last couple jobs I'd, or the roles I'd had had been really, really stressful. And I was at that point of kind of like why am I, why am I killing myself for. You know, I mean it was sort of, you know, it was a Microsoft campaign. Like it was, no one was living or dying by this stuff. And um, I was with a particular agency that held a lot of promise. They were known for really interesting work. You know, they'd worked with Nike and Air Jordan and you know, these great storytelling and things like that. And I had a lot of hope for that. Um, but I was, we were sort of saddled with, we were in Seattle and so we were sort of saddled with the Microsoft account which far less creative than, you know, Air Jordan brand and things like that. And it was just a challenging organization. We sort of owned by a, uh, larger agency. It was just a lot of complexity in management I wasn't really ready for. And ultimately what happened is, and I remember this, I won't give too much detail, but we were asked, my, my office, my, the Seattle office was asked to pitch, to help pitch an opportunity with a big telecom company. And we were brought in last minute. And so we pitched it. And in the meeting they were saying, you know, this is your local based team, this is your representatives, they're going to be here for you. And immediately after we came out of that, I turned to the account lead and I'm like, we don't have the capacity to take this on. This is a huge undertaking. They're like, no, no, no, it's okay, it's okay. And so it was kind of, you know, just some of the integrity was really questionable um, in this space. And anyway, I, you know, kind of out of sight, out of mind. I didn't hear it about it anymore for six, seven, eight months and all of a sudden, hey, this account's coming to your office. This is great. You know, and again I just, I didn't have the maturity and awareness to kind of see um, all the moving parts. And we went in and it was an immediately a hostile relationship with. And I just couldn't wrap my head around it. And again, I just didn't have the wherewithal to see it like now, now I would see it really clearly, but I didn't. And uh, ultimately we, we got fired. Like we were booted off the account, and I was essentially blamed for it. And it was only after the fact I'd found out that they'd had an office, one of their other offices had kicked the project off, screwed it up, then had been booted to one of their other offices. They'd screwed it up. And so we were like the third string trying to save this thing after they'd been kind of booted around for six or eight months. And so that's when I sort of. Yeah, I mean, it was on me. But, uh, I felt like I got thrown under the bus because I wasn't given any of that clarity. I didn't have that backstory. All of that's a very long winded way of saying that that was the sort of the universe kind of kicking me around and saying, all right, you need to think about something differently. Um, coincidentally, at that time, right around that time, I had been teaching a workshop at a local design school there on public speaking and communication and presentation design. And it was sort of at that moment where it was like, okay, I've got a child. I'm thinking about things differently. Wow, I just got thrown under the bus here. This was really uncool. I got blamed for it all. And. But I'm seeing this other thing out here that's kind of interesting, this idea of teaching and empowering people and, you know, and really using what I was starting to recognize through my agency life, the skill that I had, which was public speaking, communication, telling stories. And so it was sort of like these three things were happening at once. And so that was, that was the, the catalyst, if you will. And then I took some time off from that and was kind of reevaluating and hanging out with my son a lot at the park and, you know, just giving me a little bit of clarity.

Speaker A: So that it's so interesting to me how when we're sort of resistant to the change, to changes we should enact, um, a lot of times the world, the universe, God, however you want to put it, forces it. And I think, um, generally our immediate reaction is, oh, this is bad. And we question our identity and we question our worth and everything that goes into that. But more often than not, in my experience with coaching, you know, high performance corporate professionals, it turns out to be a blessing. It turns out to be a realization that, you know, it's a moment to, to reevaluate, take more control, design your life and all of those things. In, in those moments, you talked about, like, understanding and, and reflection, and you mentioned your background as your upbringing as well. Did you start to put the pieces together from your background of, to maybe why you. The path that you did, Was it at this point in time where some of those things came together or.

Speaker B: No, it wasn't actually. I mean, uh, you know, to, to just touch on it briefly. And this is something I've only really come to understand, you know, in the last, I guess maybe 10 years or 8 years or something. But, you know, I grew up in an environment I had, you know, I had a great home life and, or a seemingly great home life, but what I had was an environment where, you know, my parents were English, Scottish, and so I don't know if anything about sort of that WASP culture, but you don't really talk about emotions. You don't self examine. It's very kind of like maintain the facade. And uh, because of that, I just wasn't raised with that self awareness around emotional intelligence. I wasn't raised with that ability to see that. And I think through my whole life I struggled. I mean, I didn't realize I was struggling, but I just. And I think that's why I struggled with sort of management of people I could, like, the people I could relate to, people that were creative, people that were on my team, I could understand and there was an empathy and I could do that. But managing up and managing the dynamics just was too much for me. And I didn't see it. And even then, I mean, it's. I just didn't. Now I look back and I, uh. Exactly what you're saying. This idea that kind of the universe kind of puts things in front of you and you figure out how to navigate them, and that's how you learn and, and through challenges, you grow. And this idea of, of failure is actually really critical to that growth. But I was operating in an environment where through my own internal narrative, I was like, well, failure is not an option. You know, I, I can't, I can't ask for help. I can't, I can't share that. I'm not sure how to do this or I don't know how to do things. And, and so I, I still didn'. I was noticing was the praise, you know, like, oh, you're doing really good at this. Why don't you come work for us? Or oh, people loved that class you taught. And so there was sort of positive reinforcement in some areas that were good and others that kind of kept me on this, this path that wasn't really, um, fulfilling me. And now, you know, I mean, this is in the last five Years. I've. I've. You know, I've. I joked with you on our previous call that now I feel like I can see the Matrix. Like, I can operate in it, but I can immediately see it. Whether it's the way someone's behaving, whether it's an interaction I had, whether it's something else in the world, I see it differently. And it's interesting because I remember one of the first jobs I had where I was. I was in an associate creative director role. The creative director at one point said to me, don't listen to what people are saying. Listen to what's motivating what they're saying. And I remember at the time going, oh, that's great, thanks. But, like, I just didn't have the wherewithal to know what that meant. Uh, and now it's very clear. And, uh. And so it's. It's interesting. You know, they talk about, you can't see the thread looking forward, you can only see it looking back. And so now, 25 years hence, or 25 years through that career, I see all those threads, I see the relationships. I have that clarity. But going through it, up until the last probably five years, I was sort of oblivious. And I think a lot of people are. You know, whether that's age, whether that's life experience, it just wasn't something I was privy to. And it's weird. It's sort of like you think about all these senses you have. You smell, sight, hearing, et cetera. And it's like I had this incredibly powerful thing that I was oblivious to. And it's only recently I've started to see that. And I. I think that's, you know, whether that's wisdom, age, I don't know. But.

Speaker A: So I want to pull on this a little bit here. I use, um, the Matrix analogy as well. But how do you describe that matrix for people? Like, what, did you not see that? Then all of a sudden you saw. I'm assuming it has something to do with that person's quote about the motivations behind things, but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I think it's. It's. And that's why I refer. And that was something, like I said, that happened. I was early in my career. I was probably only four or five years out of college at that point. And so, you know, early to mid-20s, whatever that was. And like I said, I heard it and it resonated. I obviously remembered it, but I didn't really understand what it meant. And I think another piece of that is I've often used, you know, through the work we did, the work I did, and communication, other things. I talk about empathy, the importance of empathy, to understand, understand kind of, you know, where is your audience, your customer, your, Your other that you're speaking to at, and how do you understand that? And I'd thrown that word around and obviously it played into the work that we were creating. But I didn't really understand it, I think, until I got older and I was like, I had life experience. I, you know, life had kind of knocked me around and I was like, oh, that's what they're talking about. And so back to your question. It was, I, uh, think it's. And the best way to think about it, or the way I think about it is, I mean, in our current world, you see, you know, we see videos all over social media of like people raging about something or upset or yelling at each other or whatever. And in the past I would have, I think, like most of the commenters and most of the people posting those videos, which is like, look at this jerk and like, what an asshole and blah, blah, blah. And it's not to dismiss what people are doing and the impact they're having on someone. But I look at it differently now where it's like, oh, this, okay, this person's outburst or rage about this one thing that just seems so silly, you know, like, oh, they didn't give me ketchup with my order and I'm now going to go back and throw stuff at the poor person working behind the counter. Like, our society is very superficial in that way and it wants to just like, look at this jerk. But I'm looking at it and going like, wow, this person is, there's something going on with them. They're really frustrated. This was just the catalyst that kind of put them over, you know. And so I don't know if that's uh, a concrete example, but that's what I mean by sort of seeing things differently. I'm looking at what's the underlying motivation and it doesn't excuse the behavior. But at least, and those are, I think, extreme examples, I'm talking more like on your day to day, you see, you know, like someone didn't respond to an email, someone didn't follow up. And it's like in the past, my narrative would have been like, oh, I must have done something wrong and I'm no good and they didn't like it. And it's all about me, me, me, Whereas now I'm much more like, you know, I look at and I'm like, okay, well they're probably busy or I know they've got this going on or oh, maybe I should follow up. And you know, it's a, it's a just a different dynamic that, that I see in, in the world now. And I haven't mentioned it, but along the way my wife, my partner in life has, has been the one. She came from a very different background that I did. And so she learned these skills early on in her life about how to read people and how to understand the dynamic. And I mean for her it was survival. And I grew up in a world where that just wasn't something I needed to develop. And so I didn't. And um, I don't know. Does that answer the question? It's, it's just kind of, it's a bit.

Speaker A: So it's a big, it's a big question. I'm asking this more for my own learning and understanding, you know, and refining how I think about it because we use the same analogy of this matrix. I think about it, I think I agree with a lot. Everything that you said, kind of the underlying what, why are people doing what they do? What's being left unsaid. All of that kind of stuff is very good. I think about it from like a structural um, level basically. Like I think of the matrix as the default norms we all accept. And we just go along, you know, saying yes to these things. And um, you know, it's the way a corporation operates. It's the politics. It's just everyday course of life of like everybody go, gets in the car and drives to work and you know, that's, it's a frustration, but that's just the way that it is. And I think when you start to get a higher level, you know, and we all have feelings about this, ah, uh, this, there's gotta be something better. This sucks. Why don't we change this? The answer to this problem within our corporation seems so obvious. Why don't we change it? And the world just keeps on going. And it's like, like when you start to see that things don't have to be that way. People operate and work and make livings in different ways or people respond to situations in different ways. That's when I think you start to see the Matrix. And then the question you have to ask yourself is when you start to see that matrix, what do you do about it? How do you change your life to extract yourself from that? And I Think the possibilities are various. Right. I coach people on how to be entreprene entrepreneurs and leave corporate behind. That's one path. It doesn't have to be that way. You can start to make changes in your own day to day, you know, to make things more manageable, to take more control and sovereignty over your time. All of these things. It doesn't just have to be the way that it is because the masses do it that way. And I think it's uh. So that's how I think about it. But, but a big part of it is what you're discussing. It's like, okay, what is my boss saying? How are they incentivized or motivated to say that thing? You know, it's not that they're necessarily evil, it's that they're still operating in this construct of uh, this is how we do things. It's in conflict with how you're seeing the world. They're just expressing that they haven't seen the Matrix yet. They haven't, you know, understood this.

Speaker B: They're just want to.

Speaker A: And maybe they don't want to because they got a nice, nice life and they're totally okay with it and they get paid well or they're getting, you know, flack and direction from higher up. But at the end of the day, it is sort of this empathy aspect of things, of being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes, see it from their point of view, whether or not it's not about agreeing with them, but it's about developing a better understanding so that you have pathways forward to navigate that situation.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think as you're saying those things, a lot of, uh, sort of metaphors and ideas are coming to mind. But a lot of it comes down to the first thing is presence and being sort of still and present enough to absorb. First of all. And I think for the first 35 plus years of my life, I'd never developed those skills or that awareness. I didn't need it to survive. Whereas I think a lot of other people have. And so they're very keenly aware of people and how to navigate. I wasn't. So even though, I mean, I can look back and there's a bunch of interactions. I had a bunch of moments in my career where if I was where I am now, I would have handled them very differently. I would have. Whether I'd stood up for myself or the situation or if I just processed and been like, I hm, see where this person's coming from or whatever, what's Motivating it. And so I think it's that presence. And I think unless you've gone through those experiences that bring that presence to life and it's part of who you are or whether you. Like I did, it took a lot of time, you know, being a parent, being an entrepreneur, going through sort of life to be aware of it. So presence, I think, is the first thing. And then another big piece of it is based on that presence. Are you willing to do the hard work? And that can be a very broad sort of thing. But I always think about it in terms of part of that presence then also means, for me, it's a level of emotional maturity and emotional awareness. Right? And our emotional intelligence is what it's often talked about in, you know, on LinkedIn and other places. But it's having that level of self awareness and then awareness of others and then a willingness to do that hard work, to either work on yourself or maybe work on the situation and empathize with people and figure out, how do we get through this or. Or more to the point of what you do. And what I ultimately did was, I'm aware of this now. I'm going to extract myself from this and I'm going to chart my own course. And maybe that's the best immediate analogy around hard work. Because, hey, if you can walk in and get hired like you used to back in the day and have a nice job that paid you well, and it was like, hey, here's all this support around you. We just need you to do X. And if you do it well, every two weeks we're going to give you, you a chunk of money and that's great and you can focus, but being an entrepreneur requires you to, okay, I'm making a change. I'm going to move a different direction. As anyone listening, I mean, you, Mike and myself, like, that's hard a to make that pivot, have that awareness and make that pivot. But then that journey is the hard work. You know, really figuring out how do I take this thing I want to pursue and actually turn it into a viable business, a viable revenue stream, a viable life. And that's hard work. And I'm always reminded of, I, uh, think it was an interview with Steve Jobs years ago where he said, basically the idea of going off on your own and starting your own business, you have to be insane because it's really, really hard because you're going to hit every challenge, every obstacle. You're going to have people that you love telling you that you're doing it wrong or you shouldn't do this. And it's sort of like you have to have this self awareness, this emotional intelligence and this inner um, drive to kind of go, yeah, I appreciate your perspective, but I really think this is going to be good or I think this is something I want to do and doing that hard work to get there.

Speaker A: There. Yeah. I do think having an entrepreneurial experience is the ultimate sort of personal growth journey. It's, it's the individual hero journey. And uh, you keep referencing how it took you a long time to, to realize a lot of things and have a lot of self awareness. And I'm curious, do you feel like you would have gotten to the place that you are now with, with respect to what you've been talking about if you had not gone on your journey? Uh, and your journey had ups and downs and we'll get into a little bit of that. It wasn't straight and narrow by any means, but what do you think about that?

Speaker B: I believe that I probably ultimately would have because I don't think what I was doing was sustainable. So whether it was me making that decision. And there were a couple things that happened that sort of moved that I talked about, you know, being, becoming a parent. I talked about kind of having my, my, my career sort of yanked from under me. I talked about sort of teaching and that opening up other doors and, but, and now I've completely lost my train of thought. I apologize.

Speaker A: Hey, where were we going with creatives?

Speaker B: Do we be back?

Speaker A: Bring me back. Yeah. I was asking of, uh, whether or not you feel like you would have gotten to this point in your self awareness without that entrepreneurial experience.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think the short answer yes, but being an entrepreneur, definitely, I, uh, think it, it presses the case. It, it makes it much more apparent. And, but with that said though, I mean I've been an entrepreneur now for going on 14 and I would argue for the majority of that time I was not aware of a lot of what I'm describing. Yes, I obviously made that decision to shift gears and pursue my own thing and learned a lot along that journey. But a lot of the reasons I struggled at that more than I probably should have. And I think a lot of people do, especially men, because that's obviously what I know is my experience as a man going through that. It hindered my ability to grow and be successful because I wasn't mature or emotional, emotionally intelligent enough to acknowledge my shortcomings, to ask for help, to, you know, reach out for support, to say I didn't I don't know, you know, there was this weird, and this is obviously going back to childhood and my upbringing and other things that like, I'm supposed to know the answers, you know, I'm supposed to figure this out. Like, you know, and I think that's part of what I, again, I've become aware of now, but for a long time I was just in the middle of it. I've talked about sort of, you know, know, entrepreneurs, especially now with social media and YouTube and other things, we drink from the fire hose of information that's coming at us. You know, oh, you need to do this method or use that method or use this software. You're not doing this, you're not working hard enough. And we unfortunately, I think a lot of people, especially men, fall into that trap of buying into the hustle culture, you know, the grind it, crush it, hustle, you know, like ten exit, hundred exit, that kind of thing. And then we see people that are like, yeah, I've got this great house and I've got this great life and I'm 23 and look at me. And isn't this amazing? And you're sitting there like struggling, having worked a 12 hour day and you did it all weekend and you're like, what the hell? Um, and so, uh, I'm trying to think where I was going with that. But, um, it's just, I think that obviously I learned a lot of lessons. I learned a lot of things that helped create the person I am now, but I think probably 75% of that time I was absolutely not. I think I know 75% of that time, vast majority of the problems were coming from my inability and my lack of awareness of the fact that I wasn't willing to ask for help. I wasn't willing to, you know, pursue guidance or people and the community that could help. And I think that's, you know, I think the way a lot of entrepreneurs feel is they're, you know, you're kind of set adrift in your own little kind of dinghy out there in the ocean of business and you're kind of figuring out how to move forward and how to, to. I'm, um, using all these now, like how to fish, how to feed yourself, how to. But it's, it's, you know, you're kind of at a loss. Ah, as opposed to, I think now the way I think about the world and the way I'm operating and what I've seen in my own experience in the last 24, 36 months since I've had this awareness and I'm starting to change that energy and ask for help and put that out in the world. Now I'm, you know, I'm no longer this kind of boat out there bobbing around. I'm starting, I've attracted people, people around me that are kind of helping guide me and uh, helping give insight and helping, you know, I'm transparent and vulnerable with them in a way that's helping me not just internalize it and listen to that own narrative that's that I'm spinning. And I don't know if that's where you're going, but that's where I went.

Speaker A: I mean, well, we will take it. We will go. We will take it. Yeah, that's part of what we do here. Um, what you described with not asking for help and all of that stuff, to me that is part of the matrix. It's part of the way things typically are. It's a, ah, when you're hired, you are hired to be some type of subject matter expert. Um, and you have resources around you to do your thing. When you become an entrepreneur, even if it's in your field of expertise, it's not enough to be a subject matter expert. You have to figure out how to deliver and sell and do a bunch of other things, um, you know, around that. And I do think it is this egoic thing that we hold on to that we are supposed to have the answers. And it's this inability to shift into that, you know, what the Eastern philosophy calls like the beginner's mind. Right. Like it's uh, very difficult for a senior creative director to all of a sudden start a business and be vulnerable enough to say like a, this is a. I am an infant. Um, I don't know what I am supposed to do, what is right or wrong, to get into an experimental mindset, to not wait so long to ask for help, help to get feedback, to, to be afraid to ship an imperfect product. All of those things like that, that for lack of a better way to categorize it like that, you can't use your, your sort of corporate training and corporate brain to solve entrepreneurial problems. Because now it's very clear who's at risk and who's responsible. It's you as the, as the business owner. Um, in the corporate setting. There are other factors in bureaucracy that maybe blur that, that value connection. So it takes an upgrade in our operating system in order to do this. And what you've described with, uh, delay and not asking for help, the cost is time Right. It is time to. How long it takes us to upgrade these things, how long it takes us to cycle through idea, you know, market feedback, all of those types of things. And that takes a release of the ego. A lot of times it takes. Takes a, uh, really, it takes a lot of self examination to understand what is actually blocking you. Um, and I think that's what you're describing. A lot of what you're describing through your, through your experience. Talk to us about. So we're going to kind of skip the middle and some of the trials and tribulations, maybe we weave back to them.

Speaker B: Um, more of the same.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, Cliff Notes is. Your first business didn't take off the way that you wanted to. The speaking business. You were, you were drawn to this idea of storytelling and being able to help people, but it didn't take off. And I think the Cliff Notes is largely because you were still stuck. And maybe not. Not take. Not experimenting fast enough or whatever we want to call that.

Speaker B: And I'll.

Speaker A: Let's fast. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.

Speaker B: Just very, very briefly, because I think this is relevant for, for people listening that, I mean, the irony was. Or not the irony, but the challenge was that I was, uh, like, when I was with a client, when I was doing what I was good at, that I was very good at it. And I was, you know, I've. I've heard people talk about being in flow. I was just there, I was present, I was confident, I was on top of it. And so I knew that I could do it. It was all the other aspects of the business that were struggling, but I was, I was just making an. I was, you know, I'd have these peaks and valleys, but I was always. There was always another peak. And it was like, ooh, I got a big client and this will. I'll ride this for, uh, a few weeks or a few months, and then there'd be some valley. Oh, and then another client. So it was always just kind of like, like. And I think in entrepreneurship we, you know, you hear like, oh, businesses usually fail in the first five years. You just gotta kind of see it through. And I was constantly on the verge of, like, making it, making it. But the reality was that I was slowly. There wasn't momentum. Right. And so financially I was struggling, but I was just getting by and I was struggling and I was just getting by. And I think that's unfortunately, the cycle many entrepreneurs get into is this belief that, like, oh, it's just around the corner. Success is just around the corner. If I just keep moving. If I just keep hustling. And I think there's some truth to that. But I wasn't building the scaffolding or the structure around me to really be building momentum. It was very much, you know, I don't know, another analogy. It's sort of like, you know, I'd bob my head above the water and like, be strong. And then it was like I'd go underwater for a little bit and then back up. And so I wasn't, I wasn't dying, but I wasn't really thriving. And I think that's something that a lot of entrepreneurs find themselves in, where it's like, I'm kind of doing it, but I'm not kind of doing it. I'm not doing what I'm seeing on social media. I'm m not doing what I'm seeing in this video. So, yes, just want to throw that out there.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think the scaffolding analogy is right on. It was the, the word that was in my head as you were, as you were talking. I mean, and that's, that's the skill set difference of being between being a subject matter expert and building a business that works for you is kind of the scaffolding aspect of it. So let's fast forward again. There's real struggle there that you can get help, um, and being around people who want to help you and can help you makes that transition and all of that matters. It can make it a lot faster and less painful. But let's fast forward into what you're doing now because I find this really interesting as well. It's kind of a problem that you personally had in this journey. So let's talk about this and how you arrived here.

Speaker B: Certainly. So, um, what I'm working on now, I'm one of four co founders of a company called makertank. And essentially for all four of us, it's what we wanted and needed as entrepreneurs, as solo entrepreneurs throughout our, our entrepreneurial career. And I mean, what I lacked was that knowledge and that experience with building the scaffolding around my business to be successful, you know, And, I mean, I think it's. A lot of the challenges is that we as entrepreneurs buy into a lot of the narratives that are out there around, like, oh, entrepreneurs gotta wear a bunch of different hats. You're working long hours, you're hustling, you're crushing it, you're doing all these things. And really, if you step back and look at it logically, like if my expertise and knowledge rests in these two areas. Why would I think that I'm able to do the accounting and do business development and do social media marketing and SEO optimization and inventory and you know, like all the CRM management, like all these other things that come with, with the business. It's absurd.

Speaker A: But, and even if, even if you could, is it a good use of your time?

Speaker B: Exactly. You know, I, I heard someone refer to this. It's like, you know, you spend all your time on the low value tasks instead of the real high value T. And um, there's this weird sense, I mean you talked about ego and pride is another one where it's like, well, you know, I want to figure it out or I'm going to hustle or I'm going to whatever. And it's just not a good use of our time. And so all of that's to say that through my co founders and I, we all had that similar realization of like, if there was just a way to create something that allowed you as the entrepreneur, you as the subject matter expert, the person with wisdom and knowledge to focus on not only what you are good at, that you know, your skill set and knowledge and expertise, but also those high value tasks, you know, growing the business, getting new clients, like, you know, creating better relationships, things like that and, and all that other minutiae kind of could be managed. And so what we're, but also that, the acknowledgement that, and we've touched on it quite a bit. This idea of like entrepreneurship can be lonely. You know, this is, you're working in a silo, you don't have people to bounce ideas off of. You don't have someone to hold you accountable oftentimes. And so it's, you know, between working long hours, wearing so many hats, being alone, you think about all the things that entrepreneurs struggle with. It's like I'm getting burnt out, I'm overworked, I'm not seeing the opportunity. I'm not, you, uh, know, because a lot of people, it's freedom. I want to build something that I can have that flexibility. I can, you know, earn an income on my own terms. I can do the things I love and I'm really good at. And so where I'm going with this is you need the right people around you too. And so what we're creating in makertank is essentially a, we're leveraging technology and AI as a platform to help you get those insights that you need in terms of prioritizing your tasks and understanding the market and a lot of that important minutia of running a business and having that centralized in one place, in a command center, if you will, that's there for you to see. Like how do I, how do I structure my day, how do I see what's coming, how do I plan for that, how do I have that visibility and how do I leverage all the existing tools that are out there to manage a lot of that. And then AI plays into that because it's able to really get into those, that holistic view of your business and your, your life. We've talked about mindset and confidence and emotions and how can we do that? So that's one big component which is sort of that scaffolding, that infrastructure. But then the other big piece of what we're creating is a uh, founder led community so that you have those like minded individuals that have been through those challenges or are going through those challenges and you have that, that network of people to, you know, ask for help, to bounce ideas off of, to get camaraderie and support as you move through this journey. And then the third piece is resources, basically ways for you to uplevel your skills, for you to learn. And so all three of those together create makertank. And so, you know, as an entrepreneur you can have that infrastructure around you, you can have that visibility to your business, you can have that human component, that connection, that community, so that you can really focus on the things you are good at and not be kind of wallowing away on your own by yourself, burnt out, questioning every decision, uh, and ultimately create a level of freedom and agency and autonomy in a world where quite frankly right now this idea of having a full time job for any length of time is really, whether it's AI or whether it's layoffs or other things, the economy, a lot of people are having to question that right now. And unfortunately, what I had happen to me, me back in 2009 with kind of thrown under the bus, rug, yanked from under me, whatever it was that forced me to kind of reckoning with this. People are seeing that on mass right now. And so it's like, how can we create something that allows them to see a path forward, you know, to go, okay, I did this for 20 years in this particular role or this particular industry. Now I want to take these skills or this wisdom and apply it to something else that's mine, or maybe it's me and a couple of really trusted people I've worked with in the past and build something that's meaningful, has impact, generates an income, creates freedom for me. Um, and I'M not beholden to all those other kind of systems, if you will, that we currently, I think, you know, this is the Matrix. It's like you're always going to have a little foot in the Matrix, but if I can see it and I can find a pathway forward, for me that's, that's huge and that's important.

Speaker A: Yeah, I do think we're at an inflection point where I think Covid was, was a little bit like this and I think with the coming AI, which I'm not going to delve into here, but like, I think we're at an inflection point point where people are thinking about hard about, like, what's the portability of my value? Like, my value inside the matrix or inside the company or inside the system is one thing. And it's pretty well defined. It's been defined over 20 years. They've told me what it is, I've developed an identity of what that is. And then thinking about how do I take that outside or how do I lay claim to it and ownership over that more is I think, what people are thinking about right now. The truth is it's never been easier to build a business than any time in history. Like, that's true. It's still very difficult. And especially as more businesses come online, differentiation, all of those types of things are real problems. So it's not easy by any means, but it's never been easier with AI and being able to use those tools and where they're going in the next three months, six months, like it's going to get even easier to operate and to build scaffolding and to do these things. So it's a great time. But yeah, it's this big inflection point. And so if somebody is thinking about becoming an entrepreneur, has an idea, um, knows they need support, comes to maker, maker tank, what do they experience?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. And you know, I, I, I'll very briefly backtrack you. You talked, you mentioned the word identity and it's the first time it's come up in this conversation. But identity is a really big part of that transition because we have that identity as someone within a large corporation or in a particular role for many years and for many people, when the rug's pulled out from under them, um, that's the big one of the biggest challenges is they're in a situation where there's probably a very pragmatic need I need to figure out how to create an income, create something for me. But I've got this identity of what I used to be. And so a big part of it is understanding, like, what's this new identity going to look like? And having the right support and people around you to help you shift into that. And so for people that are in that space, you know, we look at sort of three core, um, groups, if you will, of people coming to Maker Tank. They're starters. So as the name would imply, these are people that, you know, they're just starting out on their entrepreneurial journey. Maybe they've got an idea, maybe they've got, you know, the beginning of something, maybe they've even got a few customers. But this is all new to them. Second group is scalers. And so these are people that are, you know, know, they're already kind of, maybe they've got a few years under their belt, maybe they've got more than that, but they're looking, they're at a scaling point where it's like, hey, I want to grow my business now. I've figured out how to get this, these bits and pieces in place and I've gotten to where I am, but I'm kind of at my limit now. Like, how do I really optimize and grow? And then the third piece are sellers. And so these are people at that other stage. You know, I've built something and now I'm ready to what's next for me? You know, what am I doing now, how do I exit this? And so it's really that, that's the lifestyle cycle of people. And so regardless of where you fit in those three, if you come to makertank, we've talked about this. My co founders and I, we've talked about this. We're building something very intentionally, right? This is not a get rich quick scheme. We're not looking for VC funding and we're going to exit in 18 months. This is something that is really near and dear to my heart because I went through it for 15 years. I know that pain and that struggle, but also that joy, joy of building something. So what we want to do with each of those groups is we're onboarding them. And so it's as much sort of you meeting us as us meeting you. This isn't, you know, we're not just looking to grab your money and off we go. Like we want you to be successful and so we go through a very rigorous onboarding process where you're sharing with us kind of where you're at, what you're doing, what are your challenges, what are your successes and we're through that process identifying how best can we help you, how can we connect you with the right resources, the right people, how can we build the right infrastructure and set you up for success? And so right now we're probably a month away from doing our initial beta testing. And so this first three, four months, six months is probably going to be a little bit more hands on, one on one because we're learning. I want this to be valuable again, I don't want this to be a set it and forget it. I want this to be really valuable for you and each individual that's coming in. And so we want to learn. Part of what I'm doing right now, and I've been doing for the last two months is uh, founder conversations. So they're basically information meetings with founders in all different sort of phases of that, of that space. Learning, like what's working for you, what are the friction points, what are the challenges, what are your goals, what's holding you back emotionally, mentally, physically so that we can be building something that's really valuable. So that's the process right now is that rigorous onboarding that really kind of, you vet us, we vet you. And we've even talked about like if we have people that are part of our community, that are part of makertank, but they haven't really used it in a certain amount of time, want to reach out to them and say like, hey, what's going on? Like, you know, we notice you haven't been participating, you haven't been engaging, you're not moving forward. We want to understand why and see if we can help you with that, you know, if, hey, maybe it's, you know, because we do have a lot of people that like, they've been out of the corporate world, they're trying to build something and then they suddenly get, you know, a contract gig that helps sort of sustain them for six months or a year. We get it. And so like, hey, let's just, we don't want to keep taking your money. Let's put things on hold and we'll revisit this when it makes sense. I've been using this analogy of like a personal trainer. You know, it's like there's the LA fitness model where it's like, huh, hey, give us your money every month and we don't really care what you do, you know, and we're not that, we're more of that personal fitness trainer where it's like, we want to understand your goals, we want to understand where you're at Meet you at that middle ground and then build something that's going to help you achieve the goals that you have. And if you're not showing up, you're not putting in the work work, like, it's like, we're not going to continue to show up to help you because it's not worth it. You know, we want it because there's a lot of people out there that are willing to put in that work. They're willing to put the time in. And we want those people, we want the people that have that growth mindset. Um, because frankly, there's a ton of tools out there that, whether it's AI or others that are going to take your money and set it and forget it and, you know, whatever, but, you know, we're looking for that holistic, intentional experience for people to build something lasting, sustainable and meaningful. Meaningful for them.

Speaker A: Yeah. At the end of the day, I think accountability matters so much in, in with progress. And it's like, if you, if you don't want to be held accountable or shy away from, you know, publicly being where you're at, what you want, declaring what you want, and, you know, getting over not meeting it and figuring out a way to meet it, that's what is, is really needed when you get down to the nitty gritty. And it's like, as coaches, as entrepreneurs, facilitating this personal growth and evolution and creation, we can't help you. We can't help you if you're not gonna have that beginner's mind. If you can't put the ego, uh, aside to say, I don't know what I'm doing and I need help, there's nothing anyone can do for you. And so to me, that's like, the biggest lesson is, like, there are plenty of tools. It's my program maker tank. There's all sorts of entrepreneurial resources and people you can learn from, from. But, you know, you have to be at the leading edge of reality and you have to be doing the work and. Because we can't do that for you.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, case in point, you know, when I. And I still have some communication coaching clients that are legacy clients and occasionally new clients that I'm helping. But I would be working with someone that, you know, they're onto their third company. They've already exited their previous two companies. And from all measures, our society kind of equates success. They're successful, you know, they've made money, they've created something valuable that's out in the market. They're onto their next thing. And you know, these are people that have got 10, 20 years and after a couple sessions with them, it becomes very clear and we've built that trust that they're like, God, every time I walk into a room, I think someone's going to figure out I don't know what the hell I'm doing, or I have imposter syndrome. You know, and it's, it was very humbling for me to see that in these individuals because one, I was just taken aback that there was that level of trust. Trust, you know, this is the kind of thing that maybe only their spouse or a couple other people have heard from them, but also the fact that like, hey, you know what, we're all human beings. Doesn't matter how big your title is, it doesn't matter how much money you've got in the bank or whatever equated success you've had, we're all human beings. And so that's. I talked earlier about sort of empathy took on a new meaning for me in the last handful of years because I've seen that, you know, and I think that's one of the wonderful side effects of all of this technology and podcasting and other things is that we're able to get behind, behind the social media facade of people, whether they're athletes or business leaders or authors or whatever, and realize that, you know what, we're all human. We all struggled, we all need help, we all sort of look for camaraderie, we all sort of need these things at certain times. And I for one, I love that. And part of, we talked about the matrix a number of times now. I mean, that is a big thing for me is like seeing people for who they are and where they are and not buying into sort of the society norms, you know, I mean, society wants you. You know, whether you want to call it capitalism or advertising or whatever. It's like they want to create a sense of lack, a sense of urgency, a sense of fear in order to sell you stuff and also to keep you in line. And so the moment you start veering like, hey, I've got a different idea here, hey, I want to do something different, I want to go my own way. And suddenly you're running up against obstacles, whether they be well intentioned family or friends or society in general, or the structures of business, you have to have, have sort of within you and then also the support around you to let you know that like, no, no, no, it's, this is okay, it's not going to Be easy. There's going to be bumps, but you're going to kind of figure this out. And I was recently, just this morning, I was listening to a, uh, uh, quote or it was a, ah, reading of something that Alan Watts was talking about where he's talking about water and how water never stops. You know, it's. It's finding a path, it's weaving around. It's. Even if it takes centuries to work its way through a rock formation, it's always going to keep going. And they were talking about human and this, this desire to move forward and this curiosity and kind of how the universe. We've talked about this. The universe puts things in your way, both good and bad, and we navigate around them. And there was something really kind of, um, beautiful and poignant about that because it, it reassured me in that moment that, like, we're all on the right path. It's just that, you know, much like the water, like you, you can't see where it's going necessarily, but you can look back and go, oh, I see where it came from and how it carved against that thing for a thousand years to move through. And I feel like, not that I. Hopefully as entrepreneurs, we're taking a thousand years to get through something, but it's like you're on whatever course you're on, you're on the right course, and it's just a matter of having the right people along the way that cheer you on and give you a little support and give you some insight and a little structure and other things to kind of help you keep moving forward, whether it's business or life in general.

Speaker A: Exactly. Very well put.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: I've got three closing questions that are sort of rapid fire. All right, so number one is, what's the last book you've read?

Speaker B: Well, I've got a couple on the go right now. Uh, the last one I finished was, uh. Geez, now I'm trying to remember the name of it. I can't remember the name of it, but it was from probably the mid-90s. It was an interview with the Dalai Lama, which I found a really accessible way to learn about Buddhism because I've attempted to read, uh, books on Buddhism and the principles and. And it's, you know, anything that's got sort of rules and guidelines and all this, I get overwhelmed. But it was great to just hear. It was sort of an interview style. And so, um, I can share that with you. You can put it in the interview notes if you want. But I found it to be really interesting Because I don't know if people out there are familiar with Buddhism, but there's. It's a lot of very simple yet powerful principles which, um, when you strip away a lot of the dogma and rules, it's like, it's. And I think it's true of many religions out there, but it's like there's a very simple way to look at the world and it's really like, how are you going to start to focus on what's coming at you? Are these, are these opportunities? Are these setbacks? You know, is this something to feel happy and joyful about or is this something to like, oh, it reinforces that, you know, negative side and like, screw them and whatever else. And so, uh, I can look that up, but that's. I guess that wasn't really a rapid fire answer, but I'll just sort of. The juxtaposition of that is. I'm reading another book right now on the financial leaders in the big federal banks and other things between Germany, France, Britain and the United States pre and post World War I. And it was a book that I, if you'd said, do you want to read this? I'd be like, hell, no. But it's been really interesting because they're characters and there's a narrative and you're learning about them as they navigated these very complicated activities. So there's my two jumps juxtaposed back

Speaker A: to the storytelling roots. That's pretty cool.

Speaker B: Exactly. Yes, exactly.

Speaker A: That's an interesting juxtaposition to put it mildly. Um, um. But yeah, we'll, we'll make sure we put the, the link to that book in the show notes. Sure, sure. When Ashley finds it. Second, uh, question is, um, who are you, like, following, consuming their thoughts, content, et cetera, that you think other people should know about?

Speaker B: So, I mean, I, I always, I've referenced a few different people and there's always these people with wonderful kind of sound bite, you know, hooks that kind of catch you. And so I'm a big fan of Brene Brown. I think Brene Brown just has a wonder of cutting through the noise and hitting you kind of right in the heart about something that's going on with you, whether it's vulnerability or. I mean, I've mentioned identity, and I saw her, heard her on a podcast recently, which she was talking about when people reach sort of middle age, quote, middle age, that you've built up an armor around you to get there. And if you don't, A, become aware of that and then B, start To kind of unpack it or get out of that armor. It's really gonna hinder your ability to move forward in that next phase of your. And so that's someone you know and that I, I, it resonates with me. Um, I mentioned Alan Watts earlier, um, just some wonderful insights about life. And it's, there's a couple others that I, they're not individuals per se. I guess they are, but there's a, there's a podcast called, um, American Historytellers which I love because each season focuses on a different, different historical aspect than it has three or four episodes about that where they deep dive and again, storytelling. You know, I listened to one recently where they were talking about the gold, you know, and people coming from the east coast to the west coast and they just get into the, the, like the minutiae of like that journey and the struggles and the challenges and they have great sound effects. And it's wonderful because in that one in particular, I mean, you know, being part of the gold rush and digging for gold, uh, I mean that was a herculean task that I can't even imagine the physical toll and mental toll that that brought. But in order to even have the opportunity to do that, people had to either go like across land, you know, like 8,000 mile journey or whatever the heck it was. I mean, it was ridiculous. Or they had to take a boat down and then do like, I think it was a 60 mile trek through the jungles of Panama to get to the other side to then come up. And so it was just. I love those things because it kind of puts things in perspective when I'm sitting there, like frustrated about some particular software I can't get to work. Right. Or frustrated I'm like, okay, this, yeah, uh, let's just put this in perspective first. World problems. But anyway, yeah, American Historytellers is another great one. And then one other I'll put out there, there is, it's a podcast called Throughline, which M is another beautiful one. It just deals with so many varied sort of topics, but just the storytelling and the depth of curiosity there, I love.

Speaker A: So cool.

Speaker B: And I'm sure there's 10 others I'll think of the moment we get off and I'll be like, oh, that was the one. But there you go.

Speaker A: All right, last question's easy. Where can people find out more about you, more about Maker Tank? Where would you like people to go say hi, hi or do whatever.

Speaker B: So, um, if you're looking to connect with me, LinkedIn is probably the best place to do that. LinkedIn. Ashley Bright. So please connect with me, follow me. DM, uh, me. I'm here to serve. I'm here to help people. I want to be there because I needed people and there were people there. And so I'm there to help you whenever you need me. And then in regard to Makertank, makertank.com is where you can learn more about it. You can also sign up for the wait list and actually let me go back on the LinkedIn profile. If you are an entrepreneur either starting or scale scaling, I'd love to interview you to gather some information to help inform what we're doing and so on. Uh, my LinkedIn profile, there's a call to action right at the top to set up that appointment. And I promise, no pitching, no selling. I just want to learn. So, yeah, LinkedIn and makeyourtank.com I'd love to meet you. I'd love to learn about how we can support you and hopefully minimize those bumps in the road on your way to entrepreneurial freedom.

Speaker A: Awesome. Ashley, thanks for spending time with us. We really appreciate it. We will have all this stuff in the show notes and more when the episode drops. Drops. But very, very grateful to you for coming by and sharing your story with us.

Speaker B: Well, thank you, Mike. I. I really appreciate, uh, you giving me the opportunity and, um, I appreciate the many conversations we've had leading up to this and I appreciate you giving me the chance to, you know, share sort of the good, bad and ugly of this journey of life and entrepreneurship and, uh, so thank you.

Speaker A: All right, excellent. We'll catch you guys all on the next episode. Thanks.