How Technology, Behavioral Science & AI Are Transforming Customer Loyalty | Ish Agrawal

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to another episode of boardsite Leadership Talks, where executive excellence meets impactful conversations. I'm your host, Martin Rovinsky, CEO of boardsite, where we connect visionary leaders with board opportunities that fuel innovation, transformation and lasting impact. Today's guest is someone who operates right at the intersection where technology, design and human behavior meet to create truly meaningful experiences. Ishida Agrawal is a Stanford mba, founder of DA Tap, and a leader whose career has spanned emerging technology Strategy at UH, PwC, Product Innovations at uh, Praxis Labs, and moonshoot thinking at X the Moonshot Factory. Her mission is nothing short of making magic a reality, blending behavior science with cutting edge technology to help brands deeply reconnect with customers. After the purchase, we'll talk about innovation, customer engagement, leadership, and how to scale ideas that are both human centered and transformative. Ishida or Ish, welcome to the show.

Speaker A: Thanks so much for having me, Martin. Excited to be here.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you've had a heck of a journey. You worked at, uh, PwC, Praxis Labs, X the Moonshot Factory, and now you are a founder of the top. What key moments along the path have shaped the leader you are today?

Speaker A: Great question. Um, I would say that every experience that people have somehow shapes them in one way or another. Um, but I think some of the key moments in my path to becoming a leader, and to be honest, I'm still figuring out what being.

Speaker B: You're still young. You got plenty of time.

Speaker A: Still figuring it out. I, um, would say I've learned a lot in different aspects of my journey. So, um, I started my career in Consulting at PwC, as you mentioned. Um, and in my first kind of half of that career, I was doing really kind of like normal consulting. So I was doing M and A, I was working on mergers. I was trying to figure out how you outsource, um, and cut costs for some large Fortune 500 companies. And what I really learned was you need to be a leader where you've done the work yourself. So I think when folks are trying to lead other folks and they've never spent a day in their shoes, it's really hard to lead people when they don't know that you've been there and that you understand what they're doing. So being in, uh. What's the word? Like being in it with, uh, like in. In it with them and kind of like showing that you've been in the dugout. That's the word I'm looking for. And trying to get everything done. Um, I think that was really important part of My journey from there, I moved into the emerging technologies team at the same company at PwC. And I was doing emerging tech consulting for these Fortune 500 companies. So I had projects ranging from things like drones and 3D printing to AR and VR. And honestly, it was the coolest job I could have ever asked for. Um, but what I learned there is that creativity really matters. And as you're leading people, um, if you're too prescriptive, you are actually going to stifle, um, the innovation and the creativity that your team can come up with. So, um, I was managing teams well when I was in that role. And honestly, I treated everyone as an equal. Um, and we all had something to bring to the table. We had really diverse teams ranging from designers and folks that were experts in education and consulting and business minded folks. And all of those things had to come together to create something pretty awesome. Um, and then the rest of my career has just been honing the people side of things. So, um, at Stanford, um, a lot of the classes that you take at your MBA program, it's actually, there's hard skills, but a lot of the focus is actually on soft skills. So how do you have conversations, how do you deliver feedback back in a way that people are going to hear you? Um, the entire program is a two month journey on trying to figure out what type of leader you want to be. Um, but the funny thing is that the farther you got into that journey, the less you actually knew about yourself and there was more to learn. So, um, long story short, I think I'm still learning as to what it means to be a leader. But what I know for sure is that it's all about the people that you surround yourself with. Um, um, so treat people like people, be understanding, have empathy, but still hold them to the highest of standards. And they kind of have to earn that level of empathy that you give them.

Speaker B: Sounds like you're going to be on a great journey. Can't wait to see what it's like in 10 years.

Speaker A: We'll see. We'll see.

Speaker B: And your mission is to make magic a reality. Can you unpack what that means for you in the context of technology and design?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I'll tell you a story. So, um, I actually wrote about this in my Stanford essay. The question is, what matters to you most and why? And my answer was making magic a reality. Like you just said, um, I told a story about how when I was a kid, um, I was a really big Harry Potter nerd along with every other person in my, like, Generation of kids. Um, but for one of the book launches, I think it was book four or five, my parents had taken me to our local bookstore and there was a little area on the side that you could go to, you could pick up a wand, you pointed it at a light bulb and you yelled lumos. And it lit up. Um, as a kid when that happened, I was like, all right, like I'm a wizard, I'm off to Hogwarts, mom and dad, I'm quitting school tomorrow. Um, but it really was this moment of magic. And I think as I've grown older, obviously I now understood kind of that it wasn't magic that that happened. I understand it's mechanisms of like sensors coming together and there's all this technology that made that magic possible. But to this day I still don't quite understand why that wasn't magic. Right. I didn't touch the light bulb and it lit up. Just because I understand how we got it to work doesn't mean that it's not magic. So a lot of my career in my life has been around chasing that feeling and trying to create that feeling for other people. And I think as time goes on we actually start just taking these things for granted. So, so when you're at home and you ask your Alexa or your Google home what the weather's going to be like today, like to this day I'm shocked and amazed that I can just talk to a piece of technology and it can answer like it was another person in the room. Um, obviously with all of the advancements going on in LLM technology and the stuff that people are doing with ChatGPT and other models, it feels nothing short of magic to me. And I want, I get a lot of joy in creating experiences that use technology as a base, but really the experience that people have brings joy and delight and feels like this moment of like, wow, like something amazing and magical just happened.

Speaker B: That's awesome. And uh, Dattap, you focus on helping brands reconnect with customers after the purchase. Why do you think this part of the customer journey is often overlooked?

Speaker A: So I think that in any industry the folks that um, are big players in it are limited by the tools that they have access to. Right. So if you look at the retail industry today, there's hundreds and thousands of tools that exist for pre purchase ranging from things like pop ups on a website or analytics on your website, trying to get win back campaigns for folks that were on your website and didn't buy it. There is no shortage of tools that you could ask for in the world of pre purchase, but there just haven't been that many tools when you think about post purchase. And there's a couple of reasons that that's true. I think up until now acquisition has been much more of a focus for brands than retention has because there's a lot of market share that's left for brands to go out and get it. Now that's changing because today there's this crazy stat that in every single category, compared to just five years ago, there's six times as many brands. So if you can think about how much competition that introduces, um, obviously acquisition costs are as high as they've ever been in history. Which means that retention now has become the key driver of profitability and growth for brands. If you're acquiring customers but you're not able to keep them, especially when they have six times as many options of your competitors, you're going to continuously lose money, whether it's through profit or you're decelerating your growth. Um, but because of that not being the focus for a long time, there just aren't that many tools. When you look at the world of post purchase, it's kind of limited to emails, some SMS journeys, loyalty programs, just these kind of like wishy washy experiences that are meant to help retention but at the end of the day they don't do a great job of actually meeting people in the way that they want to be met. So with the tap, um, we were really curious on like there must be a better way to do this. I mean, when a customer is buying a product today. So I'm choosing your greens powder or your supplement or your beauty product and not the other 50 that I could have chosen from. I'm not just buying the product, I'm actually buying into the story of your brand, the ethos, the mission. There's something about it that's resonating with me. So it feels like really low hanging fruit to now give you an experience, experience that helps you participate as part of that brand. To not treat me as a customer, but as a member of this experience that you're creating. Um, so that's kind of where the idea was born. Like there's a need for retention to become a focus for these brands and today there's just not enough tooling that gives customers what they need post purchase to create the type of experience that they're looking for.

Speaker B: Yeah, and you said story, so obviously there's a lot of, you know, I mean I just came out with a book called beyond the Title, which is all about branding and storytelling is big part of branding and I talk about it in the book and how important it is for people to engage with your story, which then engages with your brand, which then engages with the brand that you're standing behind your company. So it all flows through a simple thing of a story. And I know it's true. I mean, my wife prefer certain products over others because she learned about the story behind the founders and fell in love with it. And we support those companies versus, like you said, the 50 others we can go with because there's so many choices on every product. So I think that is very important. But how does applied behavior science influence the way you design, post purchase engagement?

Speaker A: So, I mean, I come from the world of tech, um, as you kind of outlined when we were talking about my career. And when I came to the world of commerce, there was one thing that really stood out to me that was very different between the way that things operated in tech and the way things are done in CPG commerce. Um, and that is that in the tech world, the sale is treated as kind of the beginning of the customer journey. So when you onboard or you sign up for, for whatever tech tool or program, there's tons of stuff that happens after for the customer. There's onboarding flows and there's habit loops and it's all about engagement and trying to get you to come back. And retention is the number one thing that happens when you think about tech tools. Today, when I came to commerce, and I don't know if this is a fully fair statement, but it felt like for a lot of brands, the sale was almost treated like the finish line, where it was like, okay, great, we got the sale and now let's move on and try to get the next one. And the issue there, I mean, we've already kind of talked about why that doesn't matter or why why that that flow doesn't work as well as it should. Um, but it's really important to make sure that the people that you've already spent all this money to acquire stay with you. Um, and the way that behavioral science plays into this is that every tech tool you use, from your social media to any B2B software, they're using behavioral economics to try to figure out how to get you to continue to stay. Now, I mean, there's a world in which that goes too far. And we can totally have that debate. But how do you create those habit loops that actually help people do better with the products that they have? So if you Take an example, like, um, let's say that you bought a greens powder, right? Because you're trying to be healthier, maybe you're trying to get your gut into a better place, whatever that is. There's a problem that you're trying to solve. But today when you buy the greens powder, you just kind of have the product, right? Like it's kind of up to you to create a routine around it. Hopefully you take it every day. You maybe are, uh, trying to see if you're making progress or feeling better, but it's really hard because the brand isn't there. It's not helping you on that journey along with you. So the whole purpose of TAP is what if your brand could become the software layer that powers the experience you have with their products? And that's where some of these like behavioral economics and applied sciences come in. So how do you create progress trackers that build routine and help and reward people for building that routine? Um, how do you get people when they're buying supplements to help them focus, do the right things around sleeping better and eating better so that they're actually able to solve the problems that they're buying that product for in the first, first place. So there's a lot of like, mini habit loops that can create a really big difference in helping customers achieve the goals that they're going after by buying these products. But today there just isn't any platform through which that can happen in an effective way. So we're trying to be that platform and be the software layer that powers all of it.

Speaker B: Awesome. Yeah, I think that's needed now. From your experience at X and other innovation driven organizations, what have you learned about taking bold ideas from concept to reality?

Speaker A: I've learned a lot. Um, and I think the number one thing I've learned is just do it. So, yes, like when you're starting, there's a million different ideas that you can go after. But if you spend all of your time overanalyzing every single one and running crazy models to figure out which one is most likely to work, that time is better spent just testing and just trying different things. So there's m, kind of this concept of like, there's technology disruption that happens and when you combine a tech disruption or some sort of usage disruption that you're creating with your intuition and whatever you know about a market, there's probably something there. Right. So even with tap, Tap started as a very different idea. It was actually called Helper at first and we wanted to create the how to app for everything. So it was meant to be this like augmented reality application where you point it at anything in the world and if your printer wasn't working, it would show you on your phone how to fix it. And now we've kind of evolved into this gamified membership experience for products. And that might seem really different, but we started somewhere that felt like this crazy innovation and we listened. So you try something, you see what works, what doesn't work, you hear the, the feedback from all the stakeholders and you make mini pivots until you get to the point where you're like, okay, now I'm really solving a problem. Um, so, yeah, the number one thing I learned was just get started, like, don't be stuck in the world of Excel spreadsheets and PowerPoints and trying to convince everybody. Just create some sort of test, see what works, what doesn't work, and then keep iterating on it until you get to something that does land.

Speaker B: Awesome. Yeah, yeah. Uh, trial and error.

Speaker A: Yeah, a lot of trial and error.

Speaker B: Don't be afraid to fail.

Speaker A: Yes, I have failed more than I have in my entire life over the past year and a half that I've been building a company m. But every failure, I've learned more than I've lost. So, um, I would never change that.

Speaker B: Yeah, and you're still smiling away. So we're all good now. You've navigated both obviously corporate and startup environments. You're in your startup now. How do you adapt your leadership style to fit those very different worlds? I mean, PwC versus where you're at now is day and night.

Speaker A: It is. But I think every organization you're a part of is all about people. Um, and I would say that doesn't change. So, yes, there's different cultures and the way you're expected to operate is different. But when I was at PwC in consulting, I don't think I could be the founder that I am today without having had that experience. Because what I learned was how do I win over the trust of people much older than me, much more experienced than me in a short period of time and solve really important problems for them? Um, that's not an easy thing to do when you're 20 years old and are trying don't know anything about anything. Right. So this whole kind of every experience I've had on the surface feels really different, but at the end of the day, all it's taught me is how to engage with different types of people and still come out with kind of like a win, win situation for everybody. Um, so yes, you're right, corporates and startups, very different. But I think the difference is less in like the politics and the culture and like the things that you talk about. I think the difference is just that in a startup everything starts and ends with me. So like, if I'm taking a day off, like, yes, I have an incredible team, but like I'm letting them down. If I'm not at my best doing a hundred percent of what I can be doing. When I was in consulting, if I wasn't feeling great one day or needed a day off, nothing was going to fall apart. And I would say that was the biggest difference. But in terms of engaging and what you're doing, um, in order to be successful, I think it's the exact same thing.

Speaker B: Yeah, very, very true. Um, when you think about building advisory boards for early stage companies, what qualities or expertise do you believe are most critical?

Speaker A: Um, I think you should build advisors for the places that you have blind spots. Um, so for me, um, I've never been a founder before. So many of my advisors and the best advisors are people that have built multiple companies before and know what to look for and what not to look for. So for example, like if we've been um, working for a couple of months to get something done and it's working or it's not working, having the feedback from folks that have done this over and over again to help you understand and kind of read, read the tea leaves a little bit is super helpful. So that's one. Um, two is our investors are incredible advisors. Um, they have worked with hundreds if not thousands of startups before. So even if they can't help you day to day and trying to like run your business, um, they know what the pitfalls are and they know what other startup founders have done right and what they've done wrong. And getting that advice when you need it, keeping them updated and along for the journey, I think has been really useful. So, um, again that's another area that we've supplemented our lack of, um, expertise with advisors. And finally, as we've said, like, I don't come from commerce. It's not that I grew up in a brand somewhere and knew a bunch of people. So very early on, um, I just reached out to as many people as I could have on LinkedIn that I felt had some sort of expertise in the world of commerce and we got very lucky. And some of our advisors are truly just the most incredible folks that know a bunch of people, but also really understand the industry in a really intimate Manner. Um, and we just have been super lucky to have folks like that on our side helping us kind of navigate and learn more about the industry. So I would say those are kind of the three buckets that we have found a lot of success in. There's, like, industry specific, then there's just kind of like, investor roles and trying to help you navigate what's good and bad from, like, a strategic standpoint. And then folks that have been in your shoes before and can help you figure out, like, where you're going wrong and where you're going right.

Speaker B: Very, very smart. Now some personal insights. Your work blends science, design, and creativity. How do you keep yourself inspired and thinking outside the box?

Speaker A: You know, it's a good question, and I don't think I have a great answer for you. I often say this to folks where I'm like, once I became a founder, I felt like it was really hard to continue to grow and learn because you're trying to create this thing in the world that has never existed, and that actually requires taking an innovation that yes, maybe was super new and you came up with a bunch of new things. Um, but now you have to work within the constraints of the world to actually bring it to life. There's no, like, magic wand to be like, this is now just going to be the way that everyone does everything. So, um, honestly, I don't think I've cracked the code on that yet, but something I am trying to do is that every weekend for two to three hours, I'm trying to pick a topic that I'm interested in. So most recently, I became really fascinated by the concept of resonance, like resonating. How do you resonate with folks? Um, and I use ChatGPT, um, to just help me learn as much as I could about it. Give me examples, books, podcasts, and for those three hours, all I did was learn about this one topic that I was really interested in. Um, so I am trying to continue to kind of learn and grow. I think a lot of my growth has actually been around execution. So, like, how do you do sales? How do you position companies and strategies in a way that lands with people? Um, and it's less about, like, cool new designs and, like, cool things that people are doing out there. But I, um, do empower my team that, uh, is working on design and product or tech. Um, they're fully, um, open to going out and learning more. And I think I learned from them.

Speaker B: Awesome, awesome. Learning from each other.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Great team, team effort. So how do, uh, our listeners get hold of you. What's the best way to connect? Um, guessing LinkedIn would be one. This is your moment to pitch the top.

Speaker A: Um, amazing. So for any folks out there in the world of commerce or beyond that are really interested in creating a software layer for your brand that's going to power your experience, um, think about top as a gamified membership experience experience for your customers that can get up and running in less than a day. So take your content, make it interactive and we have a bunch of really, um, innovative AI tools that help you do that. Um, but also to resonate, as I mentioned, um, with your customers in a way that really matters. So if you're interested, um, in learning more, definitely reach out on LinkedIn. Um, ish Agrawal. I'm sure it'll be somewhere in your show notes. Um, how you spell that? Uh, you can reach out on our website thetap IO that's t h e t a p p. So two Ps IO um, or feel free to email me ishetap IO um, and I'd be happy to chat.

Speaker B: Awesome. Ish. Thank you for joining us and sharing your story. Your journey is great, even though it's still young and plenty to go. But it's a great reminder that the most impactful innovations happen when technology is designed to serve human needs, not just business goals. And to our listeners, whether you're leading a, ah, startup, scaling a globe organization, or looking for your next board role, remember that success comes from listening, designing with, designing with empathy, and always keeping the human at the center of the solution. If you're ready to take your leadership to the next level and explore board or advisory opportunities, visit us@, uh, boardzai.com ish. It's been a pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: Thanks so much, Martin. It's been a pleasure to be chatting with you today. Awesome.

Speaker B: Uh, thank you for tuning in to leadership talks. Don't forget to subscribe for more insightful conversations with industry leaders. Your support means a lot to us.