𝗙𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝗦𝗵𝗼𝘄𝗲𝗿 𝘁𝗼 𝗪𝗮𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝗘𝗰𝗼𝘀𝘆𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗺 - 𝗜𝗻𝗻𝗼𝘃𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗮𝘁 𝗵𝗮𝗻𝘀𝗴𝗿𝗼𝗵𝗲

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to a new episode of our, uh, podcast, Beyond Core. The podcast for business leaders who dare to think beyond today's success and build the future. As usual in every episode we explore entrepreneurial strategies for unlocking new growth beyond your core business. From platforms, digital ecosystems, AI driven ventures and circular business models, we dive deep with industry pioneers who are shaping what's next. If you are looking to scale innovation, create new markets and future proof your company, you are in the right place. And I'm not doing it by myself. I also have my favorite co host with me. Hello, Nathalie.

Speaker B: Hi Matthias. As usual, I'm always here.

Speaker A: Perfect. And uh, Nathalie, today we are joined by Steffen. Stefan is head of innovation and sustainability at Hans Kroh Group, a global leader in premium bathroom and kitchen solutions. And um, Hans Kroh is not just designing showers. It's building the future of planet centered, uh, water ecosystems and turning sustainability into a competitive advantage. Stefan is also author of the book Planet Centered Innovation and he brings in a powerful perspective on how companies can innovate not just for customers or markets, but also for the planet itself. So I'm really, really happy to welcome Stefan. Hello, welcome.

Speaker C: Hello Matthias. Hello Natalie. Thanks for the invite.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you that you're joining and uh, it's really a special topic also for us, uh, as we really talk about the intersection about ecosystem platforms, but also about planet centered innovation. So you are a perfect guest for our podcast. So before we go deep into the topic of Hans Kroh and uh, Hans Kroher, how Hans Kroger went through this, uh, transformation from building uh, bathroom equipment into more like an ecosystem player and uh, perspective, maybe you can talk about more about who you are, uh, what you are doing at Hans Pro and uh, maybe also a bit about your book.

Speaker C: Yeah, thanks. Yeah. So I'm 40 years old and working, uh, since 20 years, um, for this company in the Black Forest, which has a history of 124 years. So, um, the challenge, um, I'm facing with Hans GRUY since the 20 years more or less is um, we want to create water pleasure for our customers because we are selling showers, we are selling faucets in the bathroom and on the other side we have to safeguard this precious resource of water. Uh, this is the guiding principle of our innovation journey. And I started in product management, um, with showers and then with faucets. And we have two brands. So besides the brand Hans Kroe, which you probably know, um, there is as well Axor. So that's more like the luxury brand working with world renowned designers and creating complete bathroom experiences. So um, yeah, that's about me. So I only in, I'm only in the industry, but the industry, it's so fascinating. You could see the industry as a plumbing industry or sanitary industry, which sounds a little bit niche. Or you could see it as everyday life. You know, you take a shower probably every day, every second day. So it's about the life enriching experiences. It's not just getting physically clean. It's about mental hygiene, relax de stress, you know, helping you to have a good sleep. You know, when you're stressed in your job, um, the shower can really give you something else than just getting physically clean. And this is why at the end of the day it's a consumer business and you're really close to your customers, imagine they are naked in front of your products. So it's a very intimate um, space to innovate. But it depends on the framing of course.

Speaker A: Yeah, of course. Um, but you touched it a little bit. So Hans, probably in the last maybe. Yeah, you uh, said 100 years went through uh, also a bit of several transformations. Maybe from first kind of building those products, uh, to become or to get physically clean into more like an experience, uh driven company. And now also tackling this whole ecosystem approach. Maybe you can also touch a bit on what, what does, does it mean, this ecosystem thinking, ecosystem approach.

Speaker C: For Hans Prohe, I think at the end of the day, um, businesses are created or those businesses who are still alive, they found a solution for a relevant problem which resonates in the market. And 124 years, you know, before it was people longed for bathrooms. There was not a bathroom in every house. So the big need, the big desire from society, I would call it now the planetary issue. The problem was I uh, need to get physically clean. Uh, I don't want to go to this. You know, there were some public bathrooms. So the desire was that I have my own bathroom in my home. And this created the business, this created the whole industry. And this drove as well sales, um, um until the 70s when everybody had then you know, the bathroom. Especially after the war, maybe we had to rebuild a little bit. Um, so the second question, and this was Klaus Kroy, the son of Hans Gruy, the founder who joined um, the company in 1968. So you know, he found this other problem where people now have these bathrooms and everybody had the chance to get physically clean, at least in the global north. But the desire was there for mental hygiene, you know, to have it Looking like the living room. And he really found this magic lever of design, so interior design. So I think this was one of the key success factors uh, of the era of Klaus Kroy, that he brought design into the bathroom and product design. And this was really world renowned designers like Frog design, um, later, uh, evolved into Phoenix Design, um, we worked together with Philippe Stark, Jean Marie Mazot, so sometimes it were even architects reinterpreting the products. And this was already a first step into a broader thinking. So you get away from a functional product where you innovate, really tech driven. And then the next step, more like designing for users, you know, for um, for deeper needs, for motives. So there was an underlying need beyond just getting physically clean. And this drove the business from 70 million to nearly a billion of turnover. You see how much um, desire was there. And the complete industry now has really nice looking bathrooms. So this was of course not only Hans Grohe, um, transforming the industry. This was of course competitors or new entrants into the market and architects and the complete industry. But what he had in his vision and he was a really visionary leader. Um, already in the 90s he saw the next big issue. You know, although the bathrooms didn't all look nice. He already saw this issue of the climate crisis and the effect on water because water is the symptom of the climate crisis. So you have not enough water or you have too much water or you have water in areas where you don't need it and the others would need it or you have very dirty water. And as water is the base of our business model, so this is really challenging and this is probably right now, you know, the third um, disruption of our industry where we really have to think of water, energy and as well the resources, how our products are made are getting scarce. And this is why now, you know, we evolved maybe from a uh, R and D driven company to a user centered company. It always builds up. It doesn't mean that R and D isn't important anymore, but there is another layer on top and the user centricity. We did it perfectly with our uh, designers and now the next step is to have the planet centered approach to see, okay, um, the environment is changing and we have to include these aspects as well into our design and innovation process. And this evolves now from a really egocentric approach to an ecocentric approach. You have to think in ecosystems because the biggest ecosystem on the world, it's probably the water cycle.

Speaker B: I'm totally fascinated for two reasons. One, I never even had that thought when I'm having a shower, uh, of everything you explained for the history of uh, how I, you know, the company started and everything and it just seems so normal. Um, so anyway, next time I'm having a shower, of course I will think about this. M. The other point is that and um, in the whole story that you just told, you never mentioned products really. You mentioned an ecosystem of convenience from the beginning to have uh, your own bathroom in your own house. You then mentioned an ecosystem of design. So pleasure of having a nice place, um, well being, etc. And now you're mentioning um, the water ecosystem. Uh, so I find that really. And then you talk about R D. But it kind of seems that from the beginning you were, ah, you had that ecosystem approach which is well, quite rare I think.

Speaker C: And I would say, you know, we are still, I would call us a product driven company. So for us when you are in our ecosystem, within the company, product is the hero. It's all about product. We are so in love with products you cannot think of. But if you leave the company a little bit headquarters and you talk to customers, if you're not spending 20 years looking into nozzles, maybe the little nozzle we are reinventing, it's not that big of a thing. And then you have to, in order to create a story which resonates. It's always good to have the best product in the world because that's the basis. But it's a means to an end. And you have to think, uh, I think of a bigger meaning. Uh, maybe it's a little bit uh, esoterical for others uh, to listen to these words, but it really helps you to understand why are you there. And just to sell a product on the right price point, to have the production running, it's not enough. I think that's rather the consequence of solving a relevant problem than um, the starting point of innovation.

Speaker B: I think this link you're making then between the product and the ecosystem and the meaning, the broader picture is very interesting. Yeah,

Speaker C: yeah. And um, the thing as well is um, now we have to talk more and more from competitive advantage to collaborative advantage. Because when you innovate in an ecosystem and sustainable innovation only works in an ecosystem, before there were two players, there was the producer and then there was the market. And uh, the producer and the market, they can handle out if it works or not, of course, uh, with the consumers in between. But now with the sustainable innovations, when we're talking about water or about circular economy, there is more parties involved into this. There is the Society, you know, you have to be aware that there is a water crisis. Otherwise why saving water? There is government legal approvals because sometimes there is um, let's call it flaws in the system. So in the, in the, the market, maybe water is too cheap that it really pays off to innovate, uh, within water because it's like subsidized from the states and so on. So you have to bring as well now, um, let's call it politics into your ecosystem. You have society in there, of course, you have the market, you have the producers. And what else, uh, do you need? Um, you need a lot of academia and research because sometimes you need really breakthrough innovations right now. And this now has all to work together and maybe some other partners as well. Because you know, if we only let's, let's stick with water, if we would save water too much, that's good for the household, but later for the sewage system, maybe they flush their uh, pipes with fresh water because they are not designed for less water. So in order to make a really big change, all of the players have to innovate end to end. And this is very um, difficult because uh, you cannot control everything yourself. So sometimes you have to influence. And the best way to do this in my point of view is not about creating more sense of urgency. So this is like the crisis is there, there's the water crisis. We have to talk more about the water crisis. It helps to start a conversation. But uh, I think a lot of consumers and people, they are kind of, yeah, they cannot listen to more crisis anymore. So we hear crisis every other week. You know, we have tariff crisis, then comes the water crisis, energy crisis, oil crisis, whatever, economic uh, crisis. So what I have um, learned during the years is when you have a positive vision of the future, something which is appealing, so something shows a positive future instead of just telling uh, the nightmare stories. This resonates way more. This was as well the reason why we created um, the Green Vision Beyond Water, A bathroom of the future where we showcased that you can reduce 90% of water energy and resources and still have a really nice bathroom. And once we showcase this, it's like a concept car. In the auto industry we call it Water Dreams. We do it since more than 20 years. First you get feedback, you see if other people share your vision as well. And once you see that uh, the majority likes the idea, you have a self fulfilling prophecies. And then people start talking about this nice picture of the future instead of always talking about this ah, crisis. And this is I think A very interesting and very, um, important element of creating a joint vision of the future and of creating an ecosystem. Because when you are a little bit independent with your players around, you need a common sense. And this is what we did. Um, you can have a look at it. Uh, we showcased this study as well in the Internet. And um, it doesn't look like crisis. It really looks like a bright future. And that's the good thing with it.

Speaker A: Yeah, we can put a link to this, uh, also in the show notes for people who are interesting and want to see the future of the bathroom. Um, another point is you are talking all about purpose. So this is, uh, changing the purpose of what you are doing at Hans Grower. But let's have also a perspective on the business side. We always, when we work with the companies and we bring in this ecosystem perspective, it also opens up for them, um, new perspectives on growth. So very in the past, they're kind of limited to their product. Maybe in your case it could be the bathroom or the kitchen. And then you say, okay, this is a limited space now you have created a lot of nice products, nice experiences, but you are kind of coming to the limit of this, of this space. But when you take um, a ecosystem perspective and you mentioned about the pipes and all this stuff, maybe the circularity around the bathroom or and the water. So it also opens up new perspectives on growth areas or opportunities for growth. How does it relate to Hans Kroh? Is Hans Kroh still saying, no, we are kind of still in this space of bathroom and we stay there? Or does the ecosystem perspective also, uh, opens up new spaces for business, opportunities for growth, for the business itself?

Speaker C: So I would say purpose drives profits. So you have to still remind, um, that at the end of the day, uh, we want to grow sustainably. So, so that's the means to the end of having this business. And um, I don't know how the future is. You know, when you look into the future, I always say strategy is about options. So you have to create options and then once you have options, you can manage it. And in order to drive profits and growth, you have to solve a relevant problem. And this is like this spiral which really starts with what's a relevant problem? And if I solve a relevant problem, and I mean the most relevant problems right now. So the United nations, they set together and they created a 17 SDGs, the 17 Sustainable Development Goals which we should achieve in order to have a just and fair economy and life in 2030. And there is 169 sub goals and you can choose one of it. And of course one of it is SDG number six. It's water. Because water is the basis to achieve all the other 16 SDGs. Without water, of course, there is no hygiene. But without water, there's as well an issue with energy. You have to cool the, the nuclear plants with water. When there is, uh, not enough water in the Lake of Constance, like we see it right now, we have issues with the Ryan. And maybe then you have issues with logistics because ships are um, you know, needs, um, to be, needs to have enough water in order to, to, to ship the goods there. So water is really, you can go into all of the 16 SDGs. It's, it's interconnected. But I want to, what I want to say from a business perspective perspective, if you solve a relevant problem and the solution resonates with your customers, you can create a lot of solutions which solve the problem, the planetary problem, but it doesn't resonate with your customers, then you should stop and then iterate it until you find a solution which resonates with your customers. And at the end of the day, you have to find a solution which not only resonates with your customers, but which creates a sustainable business. Because you want to use the lever of market dynamics to scale it. And then you have a bigger demand. Once you have a bigger demand, you can produce more of it. You have economy of scale effect, you have lower costs, you have higher margins, so you have more cash flow to reinvest into new options. And this is actually the circle of businesses. But after a while, I think a lot of other companies, they forget what they are meant for. And then you do only the R D, the R and D engineering, the financial engineering, which is as well important. You have to pay attention of liquidity of cash flow of your earnings and whatever. But I think that's the result of a deeper cause. And it's not just, um, you know, I want to have more profit so I need lower costs. So I move my production into Asia. So that's not solving the real problem. You could do it. A lot of companies do like this and then wonder why 10, 15 years later, they still struggle. So it's just, you know, extending the life of the problem they solved maybe 50, 60 years ago. But I think you have to always rethink in which business are you in? Are you in the shower business? Are you in the bathroom business? Are we in the water business? And uh, you know, whatever the answer is, you need maybe different competences. Creating a shower. It's totally different than creating a gray water, uh, system. For example, on the one hand you need um, mechanics in R and D. On the other hand you need biologists and chemists, um, to treat the water. And this could be really a stretch for a lot of companies, but I think that's exactly why you need innovation for. That's the exploration of new opportunities and you can do business and doing good. I think that's the end of the story. So we need to use innovation and business uh, to drive the change.

Speaker B: So I don't think we today, nowadays we cannot talk about innovation without talking about AI. Um, and I was wondering while you were talking, do they have Iot um, parts in the showers to measure the water consumption and stuff like that? Um, more seriously, um, how do you leverage or do you leverage AI, uh, to drive water innovation? Uh, and if so how. Um, and, and maybe linked to my previous comment of kind of funny comment, but do you gather all that data consumption? Are you able to do this?

Speaker C: I see AI, you know, when you, when you look into the Schumpeter disruptions, waves of disruptions. So I would say the last five, six years, um, the sustainability wave disrupted a lot of industry and now the AI wave is coming and we have to pay attention that the AI wave is not killing the sustainability. So the green wave, um, there is a famous quote from Sasha Lobo, he said the bad sides of AI, they come from alone for the good. We have to work hard. And I see AI as a means to an end for sustainability, for the green transformation, for the ability to sustain, you know, relevant as a company, to sustain our, you know, life standards. We need this green transformation, this is for sure. And I see AI as an accelerator to achieve this because maybe we should have started 30 years before as a complete um, world industry, um, to reduce the carbon emissions, to reduce the water, to reduce all of these global issues. So AI could really help us to accelerate. So for me especially I think AI, it's more like a co pilot. So I would rather try to use the limited resources we have. And you always have limited resources, especially innovation. So I've never found one company telling me they have enough resources in innovation. So that's probably why you have the most uh, lack of resources. And why not using AI there, you know, in the exploration phase, maybe where 8020 is, okay, where you explore new stuff later, when you market it and you sell it and you know, you scale it and it's called exploitation, not in a negative sense, but there is this ambidextrous organization where you have an exploration phase and later an exploitation phase. First you have to do the right it before you do it right. And in order to find out the right it, I think AI that's a magic, a magic um, lever we, we just got since two years right now to make it right. AI needs to learn a little bit more. Um, I think because there's still some flaws and hallucinations and stuff like this. But in the early phase of innovating, so we are working a lot with AI. So we have our own Hans AI system, uh, in Hans Groe. Um, we are exploring all of the, the possibilities but we didn't include it yet into our products. So we just launched a new corporation. So it's a gray water system with hydro lube. So first you need to have all of the sensors in there. So for a standard shower and faucet, so far there is not even a lot of electronic parts in there. So a lot of products in the bathroom are not even electronic. So the next step would be they are Iot ready and then they need sensors and then we can do something with the data. So that's why I see for the bathroom itself, um, it'll take way more time. But for example for the gray water system you have to think of a kind of. It looks like a fridge in your basement and you can use the shower water, the bath water a second time. It's recycled to flush the toilet, um, to garden the plants, um, to use it for washing machine. And there, there is some sensors in there and based on this you can create AI use cases to optimize the system and um, to run it um, even on a higher recycling rate. So up today it's up to 40% of water which could be recycled. And I can think of a future where we can recycle even more of the water when you adjust it. But it's a long way IoT which a lot of other industries are already through. Um, didn't really enter the bathroom and we have our rain tuned showers as well, which make a lot of sense. So it's a multi sensory experience where, you know, depending on your mood of the day, that the shower changes the light, the sound and so on. But it's really niche yet because a lot of people, they go into the bathroom because it's the last resort. You know, the reason why we all are so stressed and feel so lonely and have all of these mental issues. This comes a lot from digitization and IoT because we are always looking in this little screen in there. Then if you now load the bathroom as well with a smart mirror and so on, especially in Europe, people don't like it. It has sometimes even a negative effect in other cultures, like in Asia, they love it, they love to have smart devices even in the bathroom. There is even smart toilets. Um, but in Europe that's a different culture. And there, um, the digitization of the bathroom, it's really not really there. So it didn't really start off yet. So way away from AI in the bathroom. But it could be really fast. And maybe five years from now, um, things change a lot. I think it comes with the use cases and with the bigger effect just to put technology in the bathroom, that's not enough reasons um, to buy.

Speaker A: Um, now we talked about your strategy and also about technology. Let's now turn a bit to perspective on the, on the cultural thing. Um, so very often when we talk to companies and they think about how can we transform in a more ecosystem driven company, then it's also a cultural thing and maybe you have some internal challenges to convince your, your board members or your CEO or what your leaders of the company, uh, to take this direction and maybe also talking to your employees to convince them or maybe to create this culture. What were kind of internal challenges at Hans Crower? Uh, I mean it sounds all perfect what you are describing but we know the reality is you always have some kind of maybe internal conflicts or internal challenges you need to overcome. So how was it that Hans Kroh was everything smooth and everybody said yes, makes sense, let's go or how has this been approached by you and uh, what kind of challenges you faced?

Speaker C: Yes, I think the most important um, element of a transformation is trust. So first you have to be trustworthy and then you need to trust especially from the board and uh, the owners. So sometimes you have owners and the board. So of course you need to alignment on the bigger strategy. So the good thing is our CEO, he's with the company since uh, 30 years, uh, and he's directly uh, responsible for the innovation strategy. This gives you a lot of um, flexibility and freedom to operate. Um, doesn't mean that everything runs smoothly. But that's the idea of it. So the idea is really we tried 10 concepts or ideas and only two succeed. So failure is part of the game and we really mean it. So we have an innovation board and they know exactly here it's not about um, zero, uh, um, mistakes and six sigma. So failures are welcome because it helps us to stop the projects in a very early phase and this helps the company to save money. I see the biggest cultural topics now looking back a little bit, it's of course when back in the days. So when I started so Klaus Kroy and the family, they were still in the board and they drove the innovations as well. So it was more intrinsic part of innovating because you have the founding family there and you have a visionary like him. So it was rather a support function to make the visions come true when he left the company from operations and the families, Richard and Philip. So there is now uh, the possibility of course to create it bottom up. But first there is the question, okay, who tells us now what to do? And it gets them all now explicit. So you need a strategy, an innovation strategy. You come from trends. So it's more, instead of being implicit with all of this knowledge the family had over years, now you do it a little bit more explicit. Um, but there is advantages now you can create a bottom up uh, innovation ecosystem. And innovation can come now from different angles. Especially talking about sustainable innovations don't always need to be product driven. So we have a lot of very um, innovative solutions in production right now where we recycle the scrap from old parts uh, in a really innovative way. It's a world first. Um, how we can dismantle the ABS from the chrome plated parts and then reuse the abs. So that's the plastics where we can reduce carbon emissions up to 70% and we reuse the parts in a way cheaper way than buying them virgin. So innovation can uh, occur in a lot of places. I think the next very difficult step. Sometimes it's when innovation comes not from your place. And this doesn't mean that the person itself is the problem. This is really human. It's the not invented here effect. You don't have the not invented here effect when it comes from your boss or from uh, the company owner because you're working for him or her. But you um, as a team or you as uh, um, an employee sometimes have an issue when an idea comes from another department. And overcoming this not invented here effect, I think that's the biggest struggle. Um, and you have to have alignment, you have to take all the people with you, you have to have good figures to have a rationale behind it, why to follow this idea and not that idea. It doesn't mean that you are good and you're bad. It's just serendipity. And you have to accept that the one idea flies better than the other. And especially when you open up outside of your Company, you know, working together with startups or with other companies, that's really uh, a hurdle I see, especially in Germany. Um, this takes a lot, you know, it's a lot of mental, uh, uh, issues. Then we, we have to accept that there is really, really good ideas even in our field of competence, which comes from outside. And to overcome this. I think that's the biggest challenge, um, not only for Hans Gruy. I see this, um, with a lot of companies, especially in the south of Germany where we try to stay with our small, uh, group, file a patent and only then go out and talk about it. Now it's earlier to share your thoughts, to share your ideas, maybe to even not file a patent, to go out to see whether it resonates or not. So this is more a little bit this Silicon Valley style of lean startup, what we try to use for us. But it's a different mindset behind this

Speaker A: is also what a lot of people say, uh, when you think about ecosystem strategies, and we are in this era of ecosystem strategies, you, uh, need to be more collaborative, uh, with. It could be a competitor, but also partners from the ecosystem. But the pace of change we are going through, uh, is increasing. So more and more technologies, uh, so you cannot keep up with all the changes right now. So if you try to keep up by yourself with all the changes, it's not possible. This is this multic law. So you need to find collaborative ways of innovating and working together to pick the right things and then turn them into um, innovative products, solutions, experiences, whatever. So how, maybe coming to one of our last points today in the podcast, um, how do you see the future? So now we talked about water, um, is the, is the new center of the innovation ecosystem or the innovation approach at Hans Flor. How do you see the future? Is this is just. Do you see already something next beyond that, or is this the biggest challenge at the moment? So how do you, how do you see the next five to ten years for Hans Kroger?

Speaker C: You know, if we go back, uh, these phases, it took 60 years, um, to solve the problems. So we are just at the starting point of the water crisis, energy crisis. We have a lot to do. There is a lot of options. It's resource scarcity as well. Um, and it's not only um, sustainable crisis we have to challenge. We have a housing crisis as well. So we need way more, uh, houses, bathrooms. And this comes back again from society because, um, yes, mankind grows like 3 billion in this century, but it grows a lot in the global South. Um, and this is as well an opportunity. So there is a classical demand, there is a natural demand for bathrooms across the world. So there I see a lot of potential for my lifetime to solve this. Three big challenges. Um, there is always within this search field a lot of options where you can go and maybe sometimes you have to even um, reflect after five years and say that's maybe not the business we should be in, that's still a relevant problem but maybe somebody else is better equipped or has the better competences um, to solve the problem. And we are rather a bystander, uh, and not the driver of the change. So it will be easy after 20 years to look backwards and draw a red line and call it strategy. But often when you're before it, it's a little bit like gambling or kind of using the serendipity. So you have to place different bets. Then the chances is higher that one bet really uh, pays off. So I learn a lot right now from venture capital where they do it by extreme, where they place a lot of bets with different startups. But you need to have an innovation thesis or an investment thesis. So you need a belief. You cannot just place your bets across the world that wouldn't be smart. So I think you need to have maybe three big challenges where you believe if we solve these that's really driving our industries or our business. And then I would place smart bets on it. Some of the stuff I would develop myself, some others I would co develop and maybe another part of it just to have more spread is to place some money or invest in startups or. Yeah, I think that's the future way of innovation and especially then in ecosystems. So not just doing it alone but doing it with partners together. So share your vision with mind liked companies uh, and people and create uh, what did I learn recently? There is a minimal viable ecosystem of the future. So you know, everybody wants to be the platform business of the future. Everybody wants to be Amazon and Apple and so on. Um, I think in the future we have a lot of smaller ecosystem where a lot of players have their rights to play and be. Um, the question is just what's your ecosystem? It doesn't just need to be digital ecosystem, sometimes ecosystem. It's like in the physical world as well. So it could be even with your wholesaler and installer that's part of the ecosystem as well. There is architects, there is designers. So I think we are living in an ecosystem already. But let's see how this ecosystem evolve after the next 10 or 20 years. Especially because of the two drivers, the twin transformation, the green transformation and the digital transformation, I think they reshape the ecosystems, um, a little bit.

Speaker A: Perfect. This sounds like a perfect, um, conclusion of our conversation. Um, and also a bit of inspiration for people to take away, uh, from this podcast and think about, uh, what does it mean for their own, uh, business they are driving. Um, are there any recommendations from your side you would like to recommend to, to, to those, to our listeners? Um, uh, regarding podcast, of course, books, maybe, um, uh, or other sources where you think this, this really inspired me. This really gave me, uh, very good insight. It's really shaped my thinking and that's why I really recommend this to other leaders to have a look at.

Speaker C: So maybe it's just normally when you're in innovation you have three bubbles in your mind. If you did this design thinking only in startup courses, you know that you can start innovation from desirability or from feasibility, that's rather a tech push, or from viability, that's business model innovation. And I would just ask you to add a fourth bubble, um, in your mind, which it's called sustainability. And sometimes it even makes sense to start from sustainability because a lot of companies, especially now in Europe, they went through the csrd, you know, the double materiality. So we all had to do our analysis where we have effects from outside in and inside out in terms of sustainability. And now we use it to stay compliant and reduce the effects. But maybe you use these findings as a starting point for innovation. And this is exactly what I tried to find out as well for Hans Grohe. And um, I created a methodology, it's called Planet Central Innovation. And I wrote it down in a book, uh, where you all can read it through and maybe just try for your industry, um, to look from this angle. At the end of the day it's still serendipity, but sometimes changing the perspective helps you, uh, to find new ways of innovation.

Speaker B: Thank you. And, and where can the, our listeners follow you or contact you? Where are you active?

Speaker C: Yeah, uh, I, um, think the, the best way for NETWORKING Nowadays it's LinkedIn. And from LinkedIn on, um, we can uh, have a conversation or uh, a contact and as well, um, I have now the, the joy of, of giving lectures from time to time. Um, so there are some modules and at the University of St. Gallen where you can um, apply for or at a business, um, school in Augsburg. So, uh, the University of St. Gallen, it's rather in English and in business school Augsburg, it's in German and the book, unfortunately, it's only in German so far, so in case you want to read it through, you find it on all the bookstores. Um, you can order it. So it's probably not always in the shelf, but you can order it so they deliver it to you.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Okay, so we will also put all the links to the book, but also to your profile into, um, the show notes. So if people want to connect, they can just click on the link. Um, yeah. Thank you very much, Stefan, for all the insights on, on your thinking on Hans Grower and your ecosystem strategy. I think this is really, really inspiring and gives. This is kind of a role model for a lot of companies to think beyond their traditional business, beyond their traditional products and services and having a product perspective also on sustainability. And um, it opens up more perspectives on how to grow, but also how to grow sustainability, uh, sustainable and make our world a better world, um, in the next next years. So thank you very much for joining and um, was a lot of fun, a lot of pleasure to, to talk to you.

Speaker C: Thanks a lot. Thanks for the conversation. Bye bye. Natalie and Matthias.