AI Is Making Content Easier. It's Not Making It Better.

Speaker A: So we did some research, talking to, um, a bunch of C suite leaders as well as marketing leaders and, um, practitioners. When we asked the C suite leaders how they felt about their content, sort of control tools that they had in place, 57% of the C suite leaders saying, oh, we feel great about those. They're fine in place. We feel good. Only 44% of the marketers actually felt that way, which is a huge disconnect that we're seeing. As a marketer, how do you create consistency in what you're putting out into the world, especially something like content, when you don't even have consistency around the tools that you're using?

Speaker B: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to tomorrow's best practices. Today, uh, I, as usual, am Clark Newby. And today on the podcast, we're joined by Holly Enneking. Uh, Holly is VP of Marketing at Markup AI and she's also founder, uh, of, or co founder, I guess technically of Indie Marketers, which is a community for marketing professionals in Indianapolis, Indiana, a spot near and dear to my heart. She's done a lot. She's built a ton. And, uh, we're going to talk about that Bermuda Triangle of, uh, search and AI and content, uh, today. Uh, so please welcome, uh, Holly Enneking. Hi, Holly.

Speaker A: Hi there. Thank you so much. I love describing it as the Bermuda Triangle. That is so accurate.

Speaker B: It can get a little freaky and scary in here. Right? Uh, but the things that you've been thinking through, the things that you guys are bringing to market with, uh, Markup AI, uh, are, uh, are going to give us, I think, a lot of hope in the next, uh, half an hour or so chatting about this. Um, I mentioned in your intro that you've built a lot, you've built a lot of things from the ground up, from scratch at multiple companies. Um, so maybe let's start with Markup AI and what you guys are doing there. What are you building, uh, at Markup AI and, uh, why is it so important to this Bermuda Triangle situation that we're all cruising into?

Speaker A: Well, I certainly have been in a position many times over in my career where, you know, I'm building up a marketing function that, you know, is in a business that's looking to go from being scrappy to scaling up over time, and especially with the advent of AI that has really changed the game, especially in the world of content creation and how we're using content as a really cornerstone feature of our go to market strategy. Um, whether you're thinking about that as ways to move people down the funnel or show up in the AI search or show up in traditional Google search in order to drive traffic and hopefully, um, you know, build some demand over time and move folks down the funnel until you get to that, you know, golden revenue goal at the end of your cycle there. Um, you know, the content is a really big piece of that equation. And I know I certainly felt, um, as I was using AI tools more and felt both a mandate internally and you know, just a desire, you know, as a marketer in, you know, the space that I'm in and especially in B2B tech and you know, a, uh, user of LinkedIn and hearing all this chat chatter about AI all the time, wanting to be able to use it, but finding that I could do things a lot more quickly. But that didn't mean that they were good necessarily. And so when I was coming into markup, I was really excited about what we were building because while it's not about generating content per se, it's really about giving marketers back the confidence to feel like the content that they're putting out into the world is high quality and on brand and something that they want to put their name on, they want to put, put their brand's name on. Um, because especially for me, like my background personally is all brand and digital marketing and I take the brand really seriously. I want to put only the best things out there and put our best effort into making it something that represents us well, has a strong point of view and that is just getting harder and harder when it comes to AI generated content. And so what we're trying to do with markup is really create something that helps marketers have the confidence that, yes, this sounds like me, yes, it's something that is accurate and using, you know, the right language that I want to be using, that I don't sound like a robot wrote it, that it's written for the audience I'm trying to speak to, um, and really help marketers move past that sort of like paralysis they feel with this high volume of content that now it's like, oh my gosh, I have to, how am I going to get this reviewed and out the door? Like, that's really where, um, people are struggling these days. And so that confidence layer within the platforms that marketers are writing in, like a Google Docs or a word 360, is really what we're working on bringing to market.

Speaker B: Well, and it makes me grin too that even OpenAI and their competitors, they're opening up these positions for content marketing managers, right to like figure out all this stuff that the AI is spitting out, like quality, focus, voice, all of these. Ah, is it actually doing what, uh, you know, what a client or what a customer is going to need? So they got to kind of solve this from their side. Sounds like you guys at Markup are going to help empower us to solve it from our own side. To your point, right, we can generate all this stuff a lot, uh, easier. But one of the things you were talking about is like, but it, you know, but is it good? How do you guys see that marketing judgment fitting into the equation? Is that something we can train the AI up on? Is that something that's always kind of quote unquote going to reside with us? Is it some, Is it different for some things than others? How do you kind of stay on top of that, you know, that balance point of applying human judgment into what the AI is building?

Speaker A: Absolutely. I think that's one of the biggest struggles that we see in marketing teams today is, you know, the definition of what is good is very subjective and, you know, maybe lives in the brains of a person or a handful of persons on the team. And how do you expand that out to everyone? Especially as maybe you're, you know, getting more people on your team to contribute to writing. You have a big team of writers that you have, you know, working against a set of standards. It may sound easy to, oh, I'm just going to have a clod skill that is trained on our voice that's going to help us do that. But what that doesn't provide is any sort of support or, you know, review content control layer throughout the rest of the process. So you may have a layer of, you know, brand intelligence at the point of generating your first draft of content, but that is creating some problems in that is everyone working from the same skill? Um, is one person's skill, um, up to date and using the latest, greatest, and another person's is way out of date? What has the skill been trained on? Has your brand changed over time? Has a new UM leader come into either your organization or your marketing team that has maybe impacted in some way what the definition of good is and how are you maintaining that prompt over time? Um, that really creates a lot of weight for either a person or a team of persons to try and manage over time and can very quickly break down? Um, what people need instead is, you know, a tool that is going to be right there alongside them and make it much easier for a you to configure what the brand is and democratize that across your team, um, you want everyone to be working against the same rule book, to have that mix of determinism, this is always true, this is always right, while also having the ability to be flexible around um, you know, you're speaking to this audience. Here are changes that you can make in order to make sure that you're being um, as you know, persuasive to that audience as you can be. Or here are edits you can make to these pieces of your content in order for it to be as on brand as possible. What you need is really like specific tactical edits within the content that you've already put a lot of time and energy into getting to where you want it to be in order to, you know, double check that things are right and be ready to move along the road. Um, I think. And what's helpful there too is when you have a tool that's built into the places you're reviewing, it gives you an opportunity still to teach other people on your team what good looks like. That's one of the things that it's really challenging about. Okay, I'm going to drop it into ChatGPT and I'm going to get an edit back and I'm going to get a clean version. Any opportunity to share knowledge, to teach someone else on your team to level up their skill to help teach other people on the team, like what are the things that I'm looking for? What do I as a head of marketing care about and know is these are the things that for me flag good or bad. How can I help someone else on my team know that these are the things that I'm flagging as good or bad so that they can learn and do it better the next time as well. There's a lot of that that we're sort of losing in this crazy world of just like trying to move as fast as we can with AI. But I think there's an opportunity for, to claw back a little bit, um, with having tools that are right there alongside the writers and helping them more as like an actual editor rather than. Let me just give you another clean version, totally written top to bottom.

Speaker B: Right? Yeah. And you're doing that in the work, in the piece, uh, a ton of value I think there of uh, not losing the collaboration, losing the uh, the way that you know, in the olden days you kind of circled up around a table and to do this stuff. And I know you guys have done some research on organizations readiness for AI, uh, how they feel ready and one thing that comes out of that research, one thing that I would say the most often thing I see when I'm working with clients around applying AI to marketing is the leadership. The gap between leadership expectations or lack or lack thereof, expectations and what has to actually get done. Uh, it's like before you even get to how to fix the tech stack, what to choose, how to do it, it's like the leadership has come in. It's like I need two slides on AI for the board meeting, what we're doing. Okay, what does that mean? And figuring that stuff out. So there's this leadership gap. Maybe we'll talk about that one first. What have you guys seen and uh, how do you see organizations kind of getting through this? Maturation of this going from a checkbox probably last year of like, we are not going to get the valuation, we're not going to get the funding round, we're not going to get the PR we want if we're not talking about AI to actually productively using it to grow and scale, uh, the business.

Speaker A: Yeah. So we did some research um, at the end of last year talking to um, a bunch of C suite leaders as well as marketing leaders and um, practitioners. And what we found, going back to what you were talking about, this gap, is that when we asked the C suite leaders how they felt about um, their content, sort of control tools that they had in place, we had 57% of the C suite leader saying, oh, we feel great about those, they're fine in place, we feel good. Only 44% of the marketers actually felt that way. Similarly, um, you know, thinking about rating those guardrails not just in place but as strong and helpful to their team. 40% of leadership said that they thought they were strong, that they had exactly what they needed, and only 26% of the marketing team felt that way. So only a quarter of them, which is a huge disconnect that we're seeing. On top of that, what's even more challenging is like you mentioned, there's this top down mandate we need to be using AI. How are we using AI? But there's not a lot of policy or procedure internally around what does that actually mean? What are we using, what are we allowed to use, what are we allowed to put into it or take out of it? What does that look like? Um, we found that almost 70% of marketing teams were using multiple or unapproved LLMs, which honestly isn't surprising. I have certainly done that in businesses before where you know, the ask was use AI, but there's no real rules around what you're using or how you're using it. Um, which makes it really hard when you're thinking about as a marketer, how do you create consistency in what you're putting out into the world, Especially in something like content with. When you don't even have consistency around the tools that you're using.

Speaker B: But I think there's a bias for discovery too, right? Yes, I mean, I think that, I think that. So first of all, it sounds like some organizations are doing marketing. Organizations are doing a great job marketing, uh, managing up because all their bosses think things are going great. But the other is, I don't know that like, um, the C suite or board hearing, like, oh, we're actually trying three new things that we found out about. Would think that's a bad thing. They're like, oh, thank God. They're like, they're trying, you know, they're trying out new stuff. But at the end of the day, that's not, uh, an environment that brings consistency, that brings, you know, the kind of standardization, that brings the process, that brings the predictability that you need to run a business. Right? You've got to have. You got to plant your feet and make sure that you're setting these guardrails and that you've got process and plan in place. That's going to make, um, going to keep things professional, keep things productive, keep things, um, effective. Ah, obviously we're on a frontier here. So the answers may come from everywhere. Uh, and hopefully some of their good answers. Um, but, uh, what it puts me in mind of in some ways, not in others, is when SEO blew through. And of course, as you mentioned, right? So now we're all like, well, wait a minute, what does this mean for SEO? Now we're going to do. What are we going to do? We're going to do aeo. We don't like, you can tell it's a frontier because you don't know what to call it, right? But you know, SEO is about getting you to the top of the funnel, right? Like, fine, and then you get up, we'll get you on the website, we'll work you over. Good. We'll have one of our guys call you on the phone. You know, we'll figure it out. Uh, AEO is completely different. They're kind of saying like, I'm done with all that. So what's the price? And, uh, now I want to haggle with you on price or I'm ready to go. So talk to me about what you guys have seen and the ramifications of that difference between being, you know, coming at the top of the funnel and closing a deal at the bottom of the funnel with AI.

Speaker A: Uh, yeah, I think, you know, you're exactly right. We can't even agree on what to call this thing right now. I heard someone refer to it as all of the EOs the other day and I was like, that is, we can't even decide which EO we want to focus on. And they're all sort of floating out there and we're trying to figure out how to optimize for all of them at once and what really is going to happen.

Speaker B: Eoverse.

Speaker A: The eoverse. Yes. That's perfect. And it really is a huge challenge for marketers to be thinking about. And one of the things that we're seeing right now is that SEO was always about am I writing with the right keywords? Am I getting my content published and structured in a way that is going to make my content more likely to be scraped by Google search and served up? Um, and what we're seeing is this shift from actually is my content worth being cited or is my content worth being chosen? And AEO and geo, those are much more of an emotional reaction of your content being chosen to be served up in either the AI overviews or in your chat, GPT or perplexity search that someone might be doing. And there is a much stronger bias there towards the quality of the content. Um, Google had something that they put out recently where they were trying to claim that AEO and GEO is really just SEO and we should be thinking about it all the same. But what we know is that, you know, know they SEO really prioritizes high value content. Yes, you have to have the right keywords, yes, you have to be structured in the right way. But what the content actually says is important. How much time people engage with that content, the links coming back to it, uh, the traffic going to it, um, and also having something valuable to say. AI is going to write what is expected. A, ah, marketer, someone who's adding their point of view for their brand and their business is going to say something hopefully unexpected and that doesn't already exist out in the world. That's being brought together, um, by you know, all of the robots, you know, bringing together the content that already exists and so having a stronger focus in our content around what's the unique point of view that we're bringing. Do we sound like our brand? Are we talking to the people that we care about? Are we answering their questions and adding value to the work that they are trying to do. Do we have the authority for our brand to be writing about this and bringing, uh, our perspective to this conversation? Are the things that we're citing, you know, recent and relevant? Like all of those things really do matter still when it comes to, uh, how you're showing up in any sort of search, AI or otherwise, that discoverability, the third leg of the stool, is really the quality of the content. And so having this eye towards is my content worth being chosen for a search, I think really shifts the perspective of what you're putting out there, the volume that you're putting out there, and how you're positioning it and approaching it as a team, um, when it becomes not just an effort of, I have to get 10 blog posts published today, but is what I published actually worthwhile and worth reading and helping the audience that we are trying to serve in some meaningful way? And I think what we're seeing and what marketers are finding is that content is performing well and showing up and so leaning in there is actually a real differentiator for a lot of businesses today and a CE of sort of sameness. Otherwise, anything you can do to stand out, really.

Speaker B: I like that. Take thinking in terms of the quality underneath, in terms of being chosen, uh, whether it's the AI choosing you to kind of elevate you, but also getting you all the way through that funnel, that selection funnel, to be chosen as the solution. Right. And, you know, we used to kind of be, you know, you used to be kind of cute about, like, well, it's early stage and the otopa fun. It's tofu. So it's. Don't talk about the product, you know, talk about the pain. And then you'd be like, okay, now, 3A. You know, that's the one then, where we put a customer story in, right? And there's. They're washing all of this all at the same time. Everything everywhere, all at once. Right. And so that's. That kind of campaign is what has to run through, um, everything that they're, uh, digesting. That's a really good insight. I think we've officially gotten to the point where, you know, stuff. There's certainly stuff that's overrated and underrated in this conversation. Right. How you really separating the wheat from the chaff? Uh, maybe I should say the corn from the husk for a Hoosier girl.

Speaker A: Yes. Thank you.

Speaker B: But what. What do you think is getting too much attention in, you know, this content AI Bermuda, uh, Triangle? And. And what is not getting Enough.

Speaker A: So I think as far as things that are getting too much attention, my feeling is that the Claude skill or GPT for a brand voice is getting a lot of hype, getting a lot of attention and certainly valuable maybe for a team of one or a very small marketing team that you know, has a brand that you know is very solid and probably not changing anytime soon. I do not think that that is a long term solution for a team of any scale or that is finding themselves trying to stay as nimble within this current environment as they can be. Everything is changing so quickly. The way that we speak about ourselves, the way that we're testing how our audiences are responding to things, the way teams themselves are evolving, um, are moving so fast. And one skill in Claude is not going to be the answer to making sure that you have a consistent brand. And I feel like I see a new article every single day about how to build a brand skill. Um, I think that there are some tools that exist that can get you far enough but at the end of the day you still need a person who has experience and expertise with an eye to brand. And if you are passing that off to a skill or to a robot or to a GPT or whatever to manage your brand voice, then you are already losing that battle.

Speaker B: M I've been having a lot of these conversations about folks career paths, particularly on the marketing side, particularly in the content side because generative AI kind of was the first manifestation of AI in the, in our day to day as marketers. Um, but also in terms of, you know, entry level folks, these, these marketing managers that used to, these intern, these bright and shiny interns you used to bring in for two and a half months and then you like one and you keep them and you give them some of the slog work to do and you do that with, you know, you're doing more and more of that with AI. So I guess from both sides, I guess from an individual's point of view, how do you, how are you, uh, because you've got the community with indie marketers. How do you guys talk about what a career path looks like now and how AI is changing marketing career paths?

Speaker A: Yeah, this is something that I have spoken about a lot with folks in my market, you know, within indie marketers. Even thinking about it for myself of how I'm working with my current team. I've got some great talent on my team and some real up and comers and it's my responsibility as their leader to continue to help them grow in their career and a Lot of that is about giving feedback and spending one on one time with them and being able to collaborate in a way that isn't just I go off and do my thing, you know, in whatever tools I'm using and they go off and do their thing and then I run it through something and I give them back a clean version and tell them to run with it. Like it doesn't really teach anyone anything or help them skill up in any way. Like really stripped out sort of the feedback phase of work that's being done and I find that really challenging and troublesome and something that like I'm afraid to give up on but feel myself occasionally doing with folks on my team or with myself or you know, people in my network. One of the things that I've been talking about a lot and thinking about and especially with a group sort of in indie that I'm connected with is, you know, what are the types of skills, especially for early career marketers that we can really help give them tools, not just teaching them how to prompt, you know, chatgpt or Claude or whatever sort of LLM of choice, but you know, to feel confident taking the first stab at a draft and then thinking through with them, you know, what that looks like. And yes, that does require us to slow down and um, you know, step away from some of these innovative tools that we're trying to get to. But I also know that I am capable of using LLMs and getting good output from them because I have a baseline of experience that I've gathered over 15 plus years as a marketer and so being willing to pull ourselves back from, you know, just this like daily grind of trying to churn out as much work as we can because we have the tools to do it and be intentional about coaching other folks on our team and being willing to make an argument internally around no, I do want to hire an entry level person. We still are cultivating the next generation of marketers and we need to be able to teach them with real experience, um, and not just sort of leave them, them either out in the cold with nothing to do because we don't have any roles for them or make their day just prompting AI. Like what kind of future is that? It's one that I certainly wouldn't.

Speaker B: Well, it's a future that will just further get taken over by AI. Right, um, so do you have ah, actually so I think a ton of folks in our audience are having that uh, struggle right now is how can I headcount is always right. Uh, perennially is an issue and fighting for your headcount and selling, selling the management team on your headcount. Now it's like, why, how can you even come in here with a junior marketing hire? Are you kidding me with this? It's all AI man. Um, do you have, I mean, do you have off the cuff sort of, uh, things you would have leaders think about in order to keep, you know, keep these headcount open, get secure these opportunities to hire newer, uh, folks, folks earlier in their career?

Speaker A: Yeah. I think one thing that's really interesting to me as we're thinking about sort of the role of this like, you know, incoming, you know, entry level sort of marketer is, you know, one thing that had been pretty traditional for a lot of marketing teams is really having specialists in a focus area. So they do email marketing, they're doing paid advertising, they're doing social media. They're really focused in like an aspect, um, of marketing. And that potentially sets them on a career path to really grow within that particular skill set. What we're seeing is that now really, that marketing skill set, people want something really flat. They want someone who can sort of do a lot of different things within marketing. And what has always been true is that especially as someone advances in their marketing career, you know, no one's looking for a VP of marketing or head of marketing or a CMO who only does social media or who only does email marketing or digital marketing. They want someone who can, you know, play in any sort of role on the team and has experience across all of them. And so being in a career path that's really specialist from the beginning of your career could really be a challenge for someone as they grow over time. And so the value of being a generalist and having someone on your team who can plug in and do a lot of different things in the same way that someone may think about AI. I'm going to use AI to do everything. Well, you still need someone to actually take the ideas from AI and go out and execute them. And so using that in, you know, incoming marketing talent, as someone who is more of a generalist than a specialist, actually helps your team. They're going to be able to do a lot more for your team and action on a lot more from AI. And it's going to set them up for a better career path down the road because they're going to have exposure to so much more rather than just being in a really specific function from the beginning.

Speaker B: Yeah, you always have to make. There's always that point in your career where you have to a classic career path, at least where you have to say, oh, now I've got to go like I got to go check this, I got to go over and do something I haven't done. Check this box.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And I think AI, uh, like using agents, however we want to think about it, you know, these, even these first line managers now can have a team. Right. And they can be that generalist across. Well, with that I'd love to hear a little bit about uh, the Indie Marketers community because you know, again, so we've talked here talking about AI and content and search and half of what we've been talking about is people. Right? Uh, and that's what this community is certainly about. So what led you guys to found Indie Marketers? How'd that happen? And where do you guys kind of concentrate your efforts? And, and how would you advise folks in either looking for or building a community in their own geographic area?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So Indie Marketers has been a passion project for myself and two of my former colleagues for a couple of years now. I think we were founded in 2022 and really the reason behind it was we had an opening on my team. We were looking for a designer and myself and um, one of the other co founders realized like, oh my gosh, we don't know any designers right now in indie. It was, you know, post Covid. All of the, you know, pre Covid Indianapolis marketing groups had sort of fallen by the way. There weren't a lot of in person events happening. There just wasn't a lot of opportunity for networking. And so we were chatting about it and we decided, well, in the absence of nothing, let's create something. And we wanted to build something that was a little different than what had existed pre Covid. We had so many active marketing groups in Indianapolis, but they were really segmented by particular functions. So we had a great field marketing group and we had a Great Women in B2B SaaS group and you know, all of these really specific sort of narrow audiences. And so we're like, how do we create something that is a little broader and you know, more accepting and open for anyone who's in any sort of role in marketing or any industry to be able to come together and network and learn something and you know, get some value out of it. And so we really focused on how do we, you know, just create a handful of events over the course of the year and then have a slack community as well where you know, we're really trying to offer content that we feel is Going to, you know, help anyone who is in marketing, regardless of their role, regardless of their industry, learn something valuable that they can take back to their own, you know, their own work or their team, uh, and also just get to meet other folks in the community. It's been great. We've had lots of events, we've engaged lots of people, and it's just been a lot of fun for us to put together. And you know, we continue, you know, we do at least one event a quarter and we're always have a lot of returning folks and we always have new faces, which is. Is really great to see. Yeah, I mean, especially if someone's going to be traveling into Indy, we'd love to get connected. And, um, we do our best to promote our events on LinkedIn and through email and on our website and all of those things. So, you know, we welcome anyone who is either in Indy. Around Indy, we've had folks who, um, especially as they're moving into Indianapolis, um, have reached out. You know, Carmel and Fishers are two towns that are nearby that are consistently on like, the top 10 lists of places where people are moving. And, um, those are real close to downtown Indianapolis. And so we continue to have a lot of influx of folks into indie. And if you haven't checked us out, Indy's a great place. So I definitely recommend coming to visit us sometime. Um, but too, even the Slack community is a great audience for, um, just bouncing ideas off of people getting connected. You know, we had someone the other day asking, like, here are some prompts. I'm trying. What's working for you? I'm rebuilding a website and, you know, we're doing a full rebrand. What should I be thinking about that I'm not thinking about? Or, you know, it kind of runs the gamut. And like I said, it's a really open, collaborative group. And so people are always jumping in to give advice and, and, you know, provide feedback. Um, and it's certainly something that if you're around, we'd love to see you or, you know, if you're thinking about, you know, you want to start something in your own network. I'm always happy to chat with someone who, you know, might be willing to, you know, bite off the extra responsibility of, you know, getting a group together in your own hometown.

Speaker B: Uh, so indie marketers, guys, go check that out and then I want to talk. Then I want to give you the chance to talk a little bit about before we wrap up about, uh, markup, AI, uh, how folks can get their hands on, uh, what you guys are doing, uh, uh, this layer that's going to add intelligence and add uh, um, value and quality into uh, all this stuff. All the exhaust of your AI, uh, content generating systems.

Speaker A: Yes. So we are gearing up to roll out the first iteration of our offering which is going to be a, uh, Chromium extension extension exclusively for Google Docs to start with, also with some MCP and API integrations that'll be launching, uh, next week, June 23rd. So you can go to markup AI and get started for free. Um, you'll be able to use all of the agents that we're launching, um, at that point for free in Google Docs for any document that you're working on, no matter what sort of state of finish it is in at that moment. Um, and you'll be able to review your content for things like your AI discoverability. Is it it written in your brand voice or for your Persona? Does it sound like a human rodent, not a robot? There'll be about 15 agents that we'll be launching with some of them fully ready to go, a couple of them that are more sort of beta in a labs environment that we're testing out as well. And we'll be rolling out more agents all the time after that and some additional integrations. So, um, definitely check it out, give it a download, try it for free and send us your feedback. We'd love to know, um, what tools and agents are working well, what you'd like to see more of, and especially the ones that are in beta. Um, you know, what could make them even more valuable to you, But I'm really excited about getting these out there. I'm already able to use the tool myself and I use it every day and I'm a huge fan, so I'm really excited for other marketers to be using it too.

Speaker B: That's great, that's great. Okay gang, so go check out Markup AI. Sorry, um, with such an influx of um, production sort of apps and solutions on the AI front, this idea of being able to put a layer on top of it I think is super attractive. Uh, so check it out, uh, give them some feedback, see uh, if it could be good for you. Uh, and don't forget about the indie marketers group checking, uh, them out online to learn more. Uh, Holly and Akin, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, spending time with us and digging in on. They're the kind of topics that are real head nodders for AI and search and, but you cannot peel two layers off this onion without getting to some really weep inducing stuff, like, really kind of tangled things and people issues. And so I really appreciate not just the technology that you're talking, uh, to us about, but sharing your experience, working with teams, building stuff up and what you found across organizations has been a fantastic, uh, conversation. I really appreciate it.

Speaker A: Uh, oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it, too, Clark.

Speaker B: All right, take care, everybody. Thank you again to Holly. We'll see you next time on tomorrow's best practices Today.