Data-Driven Copy That Converts: How to Unlock Middle-of-Funnel Growth

Welcome to the B2B Digital Marketer Podcast, a podcast helping you to be the one that digitally disrupts and dominates your competition. Each week, we teach you to defy the status quo, delivering insider and expert tips every exceptional B2B marketer needs to know. Now, here's your host, Jim Rembach. Okay, B2B DM gang, we're going to have a great discussion today because we're going to discuss how good copy is actually based in data more so than creativity.

And we're going to have that discussion with Naomi. Naomi has a deep background, and we're going to go into that just a little bit. And then we're going to talk about several things that people think about when we look at copy and its effectiveness and its impact and how you can actually use it to be more budget conscious. Naomi, welcome.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Before we get going, though, could you tell the B2B DM gang just a little bit about your background? Yeah, 100%.

So I've been working in B2B SaaS for the past six years in the Tel Aviv startup scene. So there's a lot of really exciting technology coming out of this startup scene. And I have been helping them optimize a lot of acquisition campaigns and figuring out how to shape their messaging so that it really hits home and that the campaigns are as effective as possible. Now, it might be helpful, too, to have people who aren't familiar with the Tel Aviv startup scene to get a little bit about, you know, kind of how that particular area and a lot of Israel is actually really focused in on, you know, technology, technology startups, and how that's a supportive community.

Because we do have several pockets, you know, especially in the United States that are the same. I mean, we have the Boston area. We have the Austin area. We have the Silicon Valley area.

So tell us a little bit about Tel Aviv. Yeah, 100%. So Israel is actually called Startup Nation for this reason. There are a ton of startups.

It's one of the largest startup ecosystems in the world after Silicon Valley and a couple of other large metropolitan areas. And a lot of it actually originates in the military. So, for example, there's a huge, huge cyber scene here because there are a lot of young people going into military intelligence. Then they come out and they use what they've learned to create these cyber solutions.

But you also have a lot of fintech. You have a lot of medtech here. And I think because it's an immigrant nation, most people here, if they're not immigrants, they're only second generation, meaning their parents or their grandparents came here. You have that same entrepreneurial spirit.

And I think that really helps drive a lot of innovation. And I think that a lot of people don't realize how much technology actually does come from Israel because a lot of times they are they're not as vocal about the fact that they're Israeli companies. That's a very good point. So thank you for sharing that.

OK, so now copywriting. We hear all kinds of different things associated with copywriting. I mean, there's literally thousands and thousands of different resources associated with it. And, you know, as we've talked about, or as I mentioned earlier, most people think of copywriting as something that is more in the creative realm.

And while it is, it has to start with a very important component and foundational element. And you talk about data, data-driven. So how can copywriting be strategic, data-driven, and then also reliable? 100%.

So the copywriting that I really want to focus on is the acquisition copywriting, because I think that's where it can really help people, and that's where it can be most data-driven. So, for example, if you don't know which campaign you're writing for or which keywords you're targeting or which stage of the funnel it's in. Is it more top of funnel brand awareness? Is it bottom of funnel retargeting?

Then you're really not going to have a clear sense of what it is you need to write. And then the second layer of that is, do you know what these platforms, how these platforms work? What is the algorithm? What kind of people are on the platform?

What they're looking for while they're searching? that's going to play a huge part in how you're going to write your copy. Then you have to know what it is you're measuring for. Are you measuring for clicks?

Are you measuring for conversions? Are you measuring for quality conversions? Is there a quality metric that you're optimizing for? And when you can take that all into account, you can write copy that can actually help bring in more leads and improve these campaigns in a very clear data-driven way.

Okay, so a lot of people, and we look at research reports and things like that, talk about most of the activity that happens in the copywriting area causes organizations to be what I refer to as stuck at the top of the funnel with all of their content. And so there's a glut, quite frankly, of top-of-funnel content. and everybody talks about standing out, being unique, all those types of things. But tell us how data can actually help you break through that top of funnel glut to get to that middle of funnel, which is going to actually create a bridge to go all the way through to the bottom of the funnel and create those conversions.

100%. So the way that I usually approach it is by using a very simple formula. And that formula is PAS, Problem Agitation Solution. Because when buyers are going through the funnel, they start off in the unaware stage.

Then they realize they have a problem. They're in more of a problem aware stage. Then they start looking for solutions. They might find a solution.

They explore. They become more product aware. They explore the features of the different product. And then they become most aware.

And then they buy the product. We talk about stages of awareness. And using a formula like PAS, problem agitation solution, can help drive people through those stages of awareness. So whenever I write copy, for example, if I write copy for an ad, an ad tends to be more at the top of the funnel.

It's not a retargeting ad. So instead of just mentioning features, if you focus on the problem people are having in a very pointed way, then they're much more likely to pay attention. So for example, in a project management solution, instead of saying, are you overwhelmed? Do you have a lot of work on your plate?

You can say something a little bit more targeted, say something like, if you have a spreadsheet open with 17 tabs, or if you're waking up in the middle of the night worrying about your to-do list, then you need to try this project management solution. So it's much more targeted, It's much more focused on the specific pain points. And then once they click on the ad, land on the landing page, then you're going to start talking about the solution. So you're approaching it in a much more strategic way as opposed to here's our solution.

Here's why we're so great, etc. It's bringing the user through those stages of awareness. When users say this isn't just another tool, it's a game changer, making it effortless to get ahead of the curve with AI and optimise for the future of search ranking, you know it works. Now is the time to easily leverage AI to launch or grow your business without any coding expertise.

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And now let's get back to the show. Okay, so you bring up a really interesting point that I see a lot of technology organizations do in that they talk an overabundant amount about them. So how do you keep them from actually creating that problem? Because that's really what it is.

At some point, it becomes all about me, and then it becomes a situation where they stop or fail to or create a barrier to have it to continue to be about that, you know, like you say, that PAS. Right. So whenever I sit down to write copy, I do an immense amount of research. and that research is, we call it in the copywriting world, voice of customer research.

So I will go into the, if they have gong, go into gong. If not, ask the sales reps to record their sales calls, go into demo calls, go into discovery calls, watch those calls and then transcribe them. And then I will copy word for word what customers are saying. So how do they describe their pain points?

If I can interview the customers myself or prospects through a user testing tool, then I'll go and do that. And I'll come up with a list of like 20 examples of things they actually said. So those examples that I mentioned earlier, those came from actual people, or it might be in a fintech solution, they need something digital because they have boxes of checks stored in their office, and they don't have the resources to actually cash those checks. So they're literally leaving money on the table.

And those are the kind of really useful sensory specific details that show a user, oh, this is actually something that I'm dealing with. And this is something that's going to be relevant for me. And on top of that, it sort of breaks the banner blindness effect because a lot of ads, and this is oftentimes because companies are talking too much about themselves, they create ads that people don't even see. The average person sees 4,000 ads a day, and they just are so good at blocking those ads out.

If you want to stand out you have to make it specific And the way to make it specific is by pulling those examples from your actual customers And then if you want to go on further you can even ask customer success Ask customer success, what does success look like? What does a positive customer experience look like down the road? And then you can weave those in to more of the landing pages and the emails and the nurturing material so that you can help create an image for them of what their lives could look like with your solution.

Okay, as you're talking, I'm starting to think about that, you know, awareness continuum in regards to unaware, becoming aware, and getting all the way to the point of, you know, becoming solution aware and then, you know, vendor aware, all those types of things. Is I'm thinking of ads being something a little bit more attuned or connecting with people who are already in market and are a little bit further down that continuum. them. So does an ad or can an ad really be effective if somebody is not aware?

If somebody is totally unaware, then no, I don't think they're the right solution. But I think that's where we differentiate between organic and paid content. So earlier, top of the funnel, a lot of that content should be towards educating the market and explaining what the category is for, going on podcasts, having organic social. That's what very, very top of the funnel is really good at doing.

Educating the market at the fact that there is a category and they might have a problem that they don't know. Copywriting is really good at helping people get from problem to solution aware. I wouldn't suggest copywriting as a solution for a user that doesn't know they have a problem. And I think that that's a really important part of the puzzle.

If your user isn't aware, that's where a lot of content marketing comes in. Okay. So there's maybe a struggle with people understanding the whole in-market versus out of market. Now, out of market is a very large bucket and could include all of those particular areas of that continuum as far as solution aware and becoming to vendor aware.

So if I think of in market versus out of market, I think with us to get a little bit deeper. So in market, my perception and a lot of the things that we hear are about somebody who, you know, is already, you know, in that buy stage. And so that's where ads are going to be a little bit more successful. And the organic component, like you were referring to, you know, helps to hopefully, you know, continue to, like you were saying, to nurture them.

But then there's also the competition element, right? A lot of organizations are trying to do that. And also with, you know, the explosion of AI and creating content. I mean, that we have more content than we know what to do with.

And you even talked about 4,000 ads. I mean, so there's just an overwhelming tsunami of information. How do we get past all of that? Yeah, that's a great question.

I think that the best way to get past it is to avoid a lot of that corporate jargon to, there's a lot of corporate buzzwords and that's even more true with AI. I mean, I think anyone who is in marketing can create a list of all of the buzzwords that AI is, AI is known for using and people want something authentic. They want something real. And this was actually something I discovered when, when I was working at monday.

com, we were running a lot of ads on Reddit. And the Reddit campaign managers told us, you know, Redditors, they like seeing things that are very raw and authentic. They don't want things that are highly polished. They want things that have a little bit of sarcasm in them or that use some jokes.

And so we had to be really creative. And we used, we even adapted our design slightly so that it didn't feel highly, highly polished. And I think that that's actually relevant on other platforms too. For sure on YouTube, I see more and more companies using more influencer style ads for their YouTube ads that feel organic, that feel authentic, that don't look like ads.

And I think that the more specific you are in your language and the more you're using the customer language as opposed to very polished corporate language, the more you will appeal to the customer. So just as an interesting example, there was an ad we ran on Reddit that said, this is how to be the most mediocre team manager ever. Come up with a list of things that you need to do, put it on a long spreadsheet, and have tons of meetings with your team in order to discuss it. You don't want to be a mediocre manager, have higher aspirations?

Well, here's your solution. And that's using that same problem agitation solution formula, but in a quirky, offbeat way. And those kind of things are what people are looking for. They don't want to see another ad.

So I think that's really where copywriting can shine. And that's really where you can offer something that goes beyond ChatGPT. Because I think ChatGPT is really great at streamlining a lot of admin tasks. And it's really great at coming up with ideas.

But it's not great at replacing the human voice. and if you want copywriting, if you want your ads to convert, if you want it to grab attention, then you have to use language that's real and raw and creative and then build that on top of a very useful strategic formula that will work over and over and over again. Well, and as you're talking, I mean, I start thinking, okay, that sounds great. But then I think ultimately people are going to come to the question is, you know, how do you find the right messaging?

I think that's a great question. And I think the best way to find it is to actually test it. Because I see a lot of companies sitting down in a room, in a meeting room, trying to come up with the perfect messaging. And ultimately, I think that's an exercise in futility, because you're never going to find the perfect messaging just by thinking your way through it.

You have to do. And marketing, I think, is a very, we're dealing with humans and humans are strange creatures. We act irrationally. We have weird behavior patterns.

We don't do exactly what people expect us to do. And so I think the best way is to come up with a variety of different angles and test them and see which one works. So for example, we would go through and come up with six different ads, all with a different message. So one would be about becoming more efficient.

One would be about having more control over your work. Another ad would be about having peace of mind that everything is taken care of. And then we would put those live and have clicks tell us. And I think that's where the data-driven component comes in.

So you start with a hypothesis. You say, okay, I think that this is most important for our users. And then you test it and you let the customers tell you which is going to work for them. And in B2B, you know, that could mean multiple things for different people.

Sometimes you're targeting the champion of the deal. Sometimes you're targeting the person with the purse strings, the upper management. Sometimes you're targeting another stakeholder. And that message might be different depending on who you're targeting or if you're targeting SMBs versus enterprise.

And that's okay, as long as you know which person you're talking to in that particular campaign. Okay, so for me, I'm thinking, based on what you've already shared, that the collaboration component is taking also that information that was, you know, research and captured from all of that customer information. The research that gets captured from people sitting in the room and coming up with those ideas. And then you're actually guiding them and saying, okay, well, based off of all of this data, these are the tests, you know, that we need to actually run.

So I don't give me an idea of how that process works. Yeah, yeah, I think it's it's it tends to be very organic. So if you're if you're a mid sized company, you're going to be running ads, you're going to be spending, I would say, minimum $10,000 a month upwards from there on paid marketing. And I think paid marketing is really where it starts because you get a lot of data very, very quickly in a way that you don't get data, for example, in out-of-home campaigns.

So I would say you start with using paid media as a laboratory and then take the learnings and expand it elsewhere. So ads are a really great place to start. Have five different messages that you're thinking about that you think, okay, we think these are the messages that are going to work. And then I would say, if you have the budget, start with sort of a usability testing.

There are a lot of tools out there today. There's user testing, there's Listena, there's Winter, that you can find your target market and run a test to see if people understand what your solution is and if they find it compelling. So I run a lot of these tests for ads. I will come up with five or six different ads and I'll launch them.

I really like the platform Listener for ads. And we will say, okay, which ad do you find most compelling? Which message do you find most compelling? And then we ask them in your own words can you describe what this solution does So we doing two things there We are figuring out which message they like and then we verifying that they do actually understand what the solution does Because if they don understand what the solution does, then you're not going to go anywhere, right?

Clarity is obviously the most important point. And then I'll usually take the ads that perform the best in the user testing, put those live, and see if they actually work when we put them live. And then once you have a general sense of which message works, then you can start to optimize. So if you find your message, you can say, okay, well, let's test the design.

Does pictures of people work? If you have a picture of the software and pictures of people or just pictures of people, or maybe we need an abstract design. Maybe that's going to help convey it better. So you can start to test those things.

You can start to test the CTA. You can start to test the colors. You can start to test the design language, if that's something that is on the table. And so I think that you, to summarize, you start broad.

You start with the general messages based on the things that you think will work the best based on that meeting that you had, the ideas that you came up with. And then once you figure out the general messaging, then you can start to optimize the more nuanced things. You can start to optimize what kind of language do people respond to? What kind of design do people respond to?

What kind of colors do people respond to, etc.? Well, I could think there would be some potential maybe surprise findings when you start thinking about the timeline associated with this. Talking about that irrational behavior is a lot of times where people are like, hey, our sales are down and we need sales now. And you're telling me that I have to go through all of these steps in order to maximize my conversion rates.

And so they'll say, hey, can we expedite this process? How long is this going to take? I mean, all these questions start coming up. So I would also think that if we don't do this type of work in the long run, you know, it has a tremendous impact.

So what do you say to an organization that comes to you and says, hey, our sales are down, we need sales now? I mean, sometimes there definitely is a quick fix. I wouldn't say all the time, but I have noticed that there are certain things, if you focus on the high real estate areas of a campaign, then you can make a huge impact very, very quickly. So I'll give you an example.

This is another one from Monday.com. The page that we were focused on, the CRM, was dramatically underperforming and that the team had tried to do it like four times in a row and still couldn't figure out how to optimize the page. and I took a look at it and I realized based on a lot of the other tests that I had run across other landing pages that if the it was really really important to have the company logos of companies that had signed up for monday.

com at the top of the page and just moving that to the top of the page had a huge huge uplift in conversion rate it was something like 30 percent And that took, I think, like a week to reach statistical significance. Same thing. There was another landing page I was working on where we removed the navigation bar. There was a navigation bar from the website at the top of the page.

Just removing that, I want to say, was like a 50% uplift in conversions. So if you have big issues that are blocking your campaigns, especially on Google, if you're spending $10,000 on Google, which is a very, very small budget, I think, for a lot of SaaS companies, if you're doing something majorly wrong, then fixing those things will help dramatically. And so when I say high real estate areas of the page, that means a few things. That means anything on the hero section above the fold, the first section that you're looking at.

So the CTA, the headline, the subhead, and the hero image, those things are going to make a huge, huge difference. Any clickable areas that lead you off the page, that's going to be a huge difference. You don't want to lead people off the page. And then the social proof.

Those things are going to have an outsized impact on the performance of your campaign, much more so than the way you talk about certain features. And if you focus on optimizing those areas, then you might actually see a huge uplift, especially on Google, right? Because if you have a lot of top of funnel traffic and you're running a Google campaign that's leaking leads, those are easy leads to pick up because they're already searching for your name or your competitor's name. So a 1% difference could mean tens of thousands of dollars and a 10% or 15, 20% difference by changing the CTA copy or changing the headline, making sure that the right keywords are on the page, like that's going to have a huge, huge impact.

So I would say, yes, it is a long-term strategy, but it can also have short-term effects. Okay. So, and it probably would be beneficial if we go a little bit deeper into helping people understand, you know, what's the difference between copywriting and content writing? Right.

So I think copywriting is put very simply, it's sales writing. It is your 24-7 salesman on your page and it sells for you before the customer can talk to you. We know that customers today are very, very savvy. They do 70% of their research before they even talk to you.

And so your sales, when they actually start a conversation with a salesperson, they're already most of the way through the decision-making process. So copy is that persuasive voice that helps get them to sign up or to sign up for your newsletter or to take that next action where content writing tends to be a little bit more top of funnel. If it's SEO, there is some bottom of funnel, but it's educating, it's informing, perhaps it's inspiring, but it's not getting somebody to take an action.

And I think that's really where the difference is. Copywriting is psychological. It is data-driven. It's strategic.

It's helping you make the most of your budget. And that can be measured in a very quantifiable way. Okay. So when you're talking about that, I start thinking about account-based marketing, ABM.

How does all of what we've talked about so far fit into the world of ABM? Yeah, that's a great question. I think that ABM allows you to be even more specific because a lot of times you are talking to a very specific section of the market. So that could be talking to a specific company, or that could be talking to a specific segment.

And so that allows you to research exactly what the pain points are for those companies and allows you to be much, much more specific. So you're using the same frameworks, but you're doubling down. So for example, I was running an email campaign through ABM, and it was for users that used a specific platform. We had a new integration with that platform, and we wanted them to use the platform.

So we were able to talk about issues that they had that were specific to them. And I think that ABM is a great opportunity. It's becoming more and more popular. And it's actually much easier to use a more data-driven copywriting for ABM than it would be for, for example, a more generic landing page.

Because a more generic landing page for a very high-level keyword is going to attract a lot of different kinds of people or a website even. A website attracts a lot of different kinds of people. So there's a limit to how specific you can be. But if you're targeting one company or one segment of the market, then you can do your research, you can talk to these people, you can find out how they speak, what their pain points are, what their vision of the future is.

And you can embed that all into the copy. So ABM, much like CRM and many different iterations of solutions prior to that, people talk about failure rates, and I'm using the rabbit quotes on that. When you look at organizations that have attempted ABM and have not had success with it, what are some of the things that you're finding that's causing those failure points? uh i think a lot of it i wouldn't put failure down one specific thing but i would say that a lot of this is a misalignment between sales and marketing because an abm campaign can be very complicated and you don't necessarily have the same um quick results especially if you're dealing with companies that are selling very very large software products if you're selling a $50,000 software product, then it's going to be a longer decision-making process and a longer deal cycle.

So you can't measure in revenue, for example. And I see a lot of times companies have marketing and sales teams with two different goals. So the marketing team is saying, look, we're having all these clicks or we're bringing in all these leads. And the sales team is saying, well, they're not qualified.

They're not ready. And that's because they need to be nurtured. And so I think that having a more big picture perspective, more of a bird's eye, 10,000 foot view perspective on how we're targeting these leads over time from both sales and marketing can be really, really helpful here. because I do think that you have to be realistic when it comes to copywriting.

Copywriting is not a cure-all. It's not a magic pill. It's not going to solve everything. It can get people through the door and it can have a massive impact on your conversion rates.

But if you don have multiple touch points if you aren tracking these leads properly if you don have salespeople reaching out to them and building those relationships over time then it not going to work Okay. So, you know, we started with and said that good copy is based on data, not creativity, but how do you still make everything that you're creating not to sound too corporate jargony so that you can actually infuse that creativity element? Um, so I like to play around with a lot of, a lot of psychological frameworks.

This is something that I've been exploring more and more, uh, figuring out what makes people tick and what's the real driver behind their behavior. And I think if you can get at that, then you can create something that's really, really compelling. That really jumps off the page. And you have to be able to describe it.

So for example, there was a time, so I was working with a fintech company for a while and I spoke with the customer success team and they mentioned, you know, a lot of these companies, they want to be seen as like drivers of change. They want to make a difference in this industry. They want to have other writers write about them. They want to have their names in the major industry publications.

And we're here thinking, ah, they want to make more money and they want to be more efficient and they want to save time. And actually, it was none of that. It was something that we all want, right? They want to be recognized for doing something special, especially more enterprise companies.

They want other people to recognize them. And I think that's a really good example of a need of a desire that people have. So in project management, maybe it's not, I want to save time. Maybe it's, I want everyone on my team or everyone in my department to talk about what a great team manager I am.

And those kind of unstated, unconscious desires can be really interesting. And I think that a lot of times B2B backs off of those because they're like, oh no, it's, it's, we have to talk about the features. We have to be really business oriented. We have to be really professional.

But humans are humans and they're embedded in this world of they're embedded in a world of humans. And they're dealing with a lot of corporate politics, a lot of fears, a lot of regrets. And those things can, I think, help take your copy up a notch. So in this example, I was writing an email and I specifically described how all of the journalists are going to write about you.

You're going to be in industry publications. You're going to be seen as a real driver of change. And just having that made it so much more successful. We started getting huge names from Mattel, from Intel, Pepsi, Best Buy, and like real decision makers from these companies.

and I think that was really the reason why figuring out what's driving them and naming that and describing it really specifically and so when I say avoid copy avoid being too creative I mean like kind of creativity where you're I don't know if you're writing poetry or if you're redecorating your home like that's a great place to be super creative and use self-expression. But if you have $10,000 on the line and you're working within a budget, you have to be a little bit more strategic and figuring out what makes people tick.

That can actually help improve performance in a very real way. Okay. So you mentioned, and I think you were explaining some of those psychological frameworks based on how structured you are in your process. Can you kind of define a couple of those psychological frameworks and the way that you've actually put them into your process and playbook?

Yeah. So one of my favorite to use is Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Maslow was a psychologist, and he explained that people have a pyramid of needs and they need to hit them in order. So the bottom is like your basic needs, food, shelter, clothing, et cetera.

Above that is your sense of psychological safety. Are you safe? Are you secure? And then above that, I think you have social and then maybe above that, it's achievement.

Then at the top of the pyramid, is, or no, you have social, and then I think you have self-expression, self-fulfillment, really reaching your full potential. And I think this maps really, really well onto levels of seniority. So if you're talking to more of a middle manager, and this is particularly relevant for a lot of product-led growth, then you are dealing with somebody a little bit lower down in the hierarchy. And so they are thinking, I have to manage all of this work.

I have to report good results to upper management. And I would say that they're a lot more interested in security and control. And they don't care so much about the company's bottom line. They don't care about the ROI of the company because they're further removed from it.

And so I think language around control and security, having peace of mind, those things work really well if you're selling to a middle manager. On the other hand, if you're working in a much larger company, selling a much larger software product that's going to touch multiple parts of the company, then a lot of times you have to get the upper managers involved. You have to get directors involved, VPs, C-suite. And in that case, you're going to want to talk about self-fulfillment, about reaching more in the company, about achieving more, about becoming a name that people remember.

Because that's something that they care about. They're not as worried about job security. They're not as worried about controlling the flow of work that's coming to them. And so language around self-fulfillment can be really effective for upper managers.

Okay. So let's think about, you know, a good recommendation that you would actually make to an organization that is, you know, in the stage of, you know, wanting to accomplish what we've been talking about. I mean, in what sense? Like, where is the company?

What problems do they come with? I think that's part of the great question. So is, you know, that self-identification piece, knowing where am I, is critically important. So give us an understanding of an organization and where they may come to you and how you would actually direct them.

So in general, I would always say start at the point closest to the conversion. And you see this in, I think e-commerce is a really good analogy, because if you change one tiny thing on the payments page of an Amazon order, that's going to have a huge impact in the number of orders, as opposed to changing something in the product list that's not going to have as much of an impact. And you can think of the same thing across the marketing funnel. So I say start closest to the conversion and then work your way outward from there.

So start with the Google ads that are going to be or the Google landing pages that are going to have a big impact. Start with your brand campaign. Start with your competitor campaigns. Start with your largest keyword campaigns.

Fix those landing pages or even before that, maybe fix the signup flow. Maybe if they click on the get a demo button or they click on get a free trial button and there's an issue there, that could have a huge impact on the performance. So maybe there's a step even beyond that. And then once you get your landing pages fixed, then you can start to think about ads.

And then you can start to think about SEO. And then you can start to think about social. But I think that if your pipeline is empty and you really need to start improving things quickly, start at the center and work your way outwards. because one small change in your signup flow or your landing page or your pricing page or your plans page on your website, that could have a huge, huge impact because the people looking at that page, at that content, those people are high intent.

They're ready to buy. And so if you're blocking them, then you're blocking those leads coming into your pipeline. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. How does the B2B DM gang get in touch with you?

You can find me on LinkedIn and you can find me on my website, storylogic.com. That's storylogic with a K at the end. Or email me directly at team at storylogic.

com. Naomi and Soman, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom and we wish you the very best. Thank you. Thank you for joining us.

Go now to join the B2B DM gang in the B2B Marketer LinkedIn group, where you can connect with other B2B DM disruptors and get access to our B2B DM cheat sheets, checklist, and guides. While you're at it, if you found value in this show, Please help by going to iTunes to rate, review, and subscribe. And share the show on all of your digital platforms. Be sure to tune in next week for our next episode.

And always remember, you can automate your lead capture, but you must lure your lead.