AI Music Is Finally Being Labelled. What Happens Next?

Speaker A: And just like that, we're back. New T shirts, new vibes, new ideas. We're back. Um, welcome, wherever you are. Good morning, Good evening. Welcome. Uh, this is, uh, audio. Not at Deep Space Network. Wow. You can tell it's been five weeks. Um, but we are figured.

Speaker B: Let us know in the chat who we are, what we're doing.

Speaker A: I think my name is Eon Lake, but I'm not too sure certain about it, to be honest. We'll have to see. But yeah, we're back.

Speaker C: Back.

Speaker A: We're back live if you're watching here. Hello, welcome. Um, we've had a. Had a summer off. It's time to talk about it. And we are joined with some warper here this week, uh, who has graced our presence. How are you doing, brother? How's it going?

Speaker C: I'm doing quite well. How are you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I can't complain. It feels weird to be here still, like, reintegrating. It turns out having a month away from home on the road is a lot. And then to come back into the studio, it doesn't happen overnight, but it's fine and we're here.

Speaker C: That's the way it goes, though. But you get perspective, right? Then you come back with a fresh eye.

Speaker A: Exactly. That's the plan. There's been no music. There's been no. I haven't even been listening to music. It's been absolutely all about words. But that's a conversation for later. Uh, Eon Lake, you're here as well. How you doing, man? If you fresh out of jail.

Speaker B: I'm okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Still got me.

Speaker C: At least he's got a sandwich.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm good. I think. Yes. Why not?

Speaker A: Older and wiser.

Speaker B: Older, um, definitely.

Speaker C: You're the only one with a little subtext under the name.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that's true. I was supposed to have learned something in this gap. Apparently, um, casting around desperately to think what that might be.

Speaker C: That's okay.

Speaker A: We're all in the same boat here. And at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Um, so it's okay. But, yes, we're back. Thank, uh, you for bearing with us while we took a sleepy summer away. Mainly I took a sleepy summer away. Um. Um, yeah. So we are back. We're here, we have some news, uh, and we're going to be talking a little bit about, uh, Tidal's, uh, integration with AI because that is, uh, thing that we're learning to live with. Entitled, have our backs in some degree. So we're going to open with that Today then, we talking about Osama, what we've been up to. We're going to listen to all the wisdoms coming out of Eon Lake's mouse and all the things that he's learned and all these things.

Speaker C: There's a lot of many, many things that he's trying to think of right now, this very second.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Eon Lake will be leading that segment of the show. So stay tuned. Um, and uh, we're going to go from there. So. Yeah, uh, it's all good on that front.

Speaker C: So

Speaker A: while, um, I was away, um, Ian Lake sent me, uh, this idea about coming, uh, the title. It's not exactly what you would call fresh, uh, news, but it's the first time we've been live when we're doing it. So we'll be looking into it. Um, and so this is the idea here. Ion, can you take us through what came through your brain when you talk this out and then we'll go through the article itself.

Speaker B: Yes. Well, artificial intelligence is getting quite popular it seems. And um, there are a lot of different responses you can see happening now on various platforms about how to handle AI music and how to identify it. You've got the um, the more idiotic end of the market, mentioning no names prove you're human. And then you've got the more sensible end of the market, um, mark Flag, AI generated music and tracks. And um, that seems to make a little more sense to me. I'm um, trying to remember this story now because it is a little while now. But yeah, Track Source and Tidal have been um, working on AI detection tools that not only detect whether or not something is, has been. You, uh, generative AI tools have been used to create it, but also um, some ability to be able to identify um, what may have been used as sources and so on. Um, I believe some of this is just going to be used in legal cases and so on to um, to try and bolster ah, a certain strategic position in the whole argument about how these things are enumerated. But um, it's nice to see Tidal taking a more sensitive approach of um, flagging things that are AI I believe their stance is um, that they're not going to have any.

Speaker A: Yes, I think in that they're pushing back and they're going to be removing anything that is detected to be A.I. uh, dealt with in that sense.

Speaker B: Whereas some reports are assigned, other platforms are approaching something like 50 AI generated tracks. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of hot air in this, in this area at the moment. And So a lot of unconfirmed um, facts. But I think it is fair to say that online platforms are getting absolutely flooded at the moment by those trying to at least play the numbers game with the superior numbers. You can generate with AI rather than writing and producing music the slow way, which we all seem to prefer. We're old fashioned aren't we?

Speaker A: For some, for some reason. Yeah, but it's true. I mean Tidal have been teaming up with Track Source and the idea is that fully, at least fully AI generated music will no longer be accepted. Uh, AI assisted music will still be allowed, but anything fully AI generated, uh, from prompts without any, as they say, uh, meaningful human creative input may be removed and are not eligible for the charts. Which is a nice interesting step in that regard.

Speaker B: It's an interesting distinction that as well because it seems to be in, in line with US copyright law where it's the, the human direction and interaction that qualifies something as being copyrightable.

Speaker A: Yes, I mean, I mean but that makes sense, right? Like ah, you can generate things with AI and then curate it to your own ends and there's a certain amount of creative ah, process there. Almost a bit like you could say 3D printing in that regard. Um, so I mean that, which makes sense, you know, like there's nothing wrong necessarily with having a helping hand but it's how much that yeah, use cases

Speaker B: I've heard where you've already got a vocal part and so on and you want to generate some music to go with it or you are missing some instrumentation that you want to add to it or vice versa. You've got um, um, an instrumental track and you don't have a vocalist handy and you need to get some vocals on there. You know, you've got the lyrics, you've got the melody, you just need a voice. And um, yeah, using generative AI to sort of fill in the gaps which is fine.

Speaker A: I mean we.

Speaker B: I don't know if that's a common use case or not, but it's a, it's a common sort of um, posited use case.

Speaker A: Well it is. I mean, I think the, I mean the alternate. If you look at the alternative, if you can't pay for a vocalist, the alternative would be using something that's splice. Right. And I was coming home from, I was coming home from the airport, um, and I was the, the boat driver, the taxi driver was playing music and he was using a song came up and he was using a sample that I've actually used on this on a single that uh, I released about two years ago now.

Speaker B: Um, which was your copyright striker.

Speaker A: Yeah, well I, I, it's interesting because I thought that I had paid Splice to keep the sample. I thought I had done that.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I thought you had exclusive rights.

Speaker C: But that's the problem with those things. Anyone can keep using them like, or they found it earlier, you know, and had it and it still just pops up.

Speaker A: It's true, it's true. And now retroactively they've uh, introduced this, uh, you can pay a bit extra and you can have full access to it itself without derailing the conversation. The point is that is the idea. Right. And you could argue in that sense that um, taking a sample that you find online and then manipulating it is similar to the process at least of having something that's AI generated and then kind of curating itself. The debate is still up about the extent to which that is fair game but the idea that these uh, at least Tidal and Track Source are ah, attempting to create that distinction and create that delineation is a, is a pretty decent way to go. We can't pretend that they care for the artists. We can't pretend that they're not. No, no.

Speaker B: I think it's more a case of them caring about their business and, and why shouldn't they? I mean um, there's a, there's another platform that um, I'm deliberately not naming multiple times already but um, it's spoken about a lot and it seems like there is a huge amount of AI generated content on there now. I just think that for a user this isn't a win. Right. I wouldn't be interested if I were a customer and I think somebody trying to um, introduce safeguards the quality of the content that they provide on their platform makes absolute sense and may be the distinction in the, in the near future. You know, if you start to get a reputation of a platform that contains a lot of slop then I think you know, you may put off your user base a bit, you know, and other ones may be a lot more um, popular as a result. I think it makes sense for people like Tidal to just you know, draw their line in the sand now the colors to the masked early on and try and protect their product.

Speaker A: For sure. Um, for sure. Some. What are your thoughts? You're muted bro.

Speaker C: I don't know man. It's good to see but um, AI is such like a wild west right now and it there needs, this is a good start but we need to see some like I think legal clauses Like, I saw. What was it? The Atlantic posted in June. A way you can see if your music was scrubbed, crawled, whatever you want to call it by AI. And used. And I mean, that's like. I didn't look yet. I. I need to look. I don't even. I don't. I. Like, almost.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker C: Yeah, but I saw someone else saying that even their videos were being used. There. There was a drummer. Oh, yeah? Which drummer? It was. But that's it. Yeah, that's it. That's it. He was saying that, like, his videos were being used and other people's videos are being used.

Speaker B: Nearly 600 videos.

Speaker C: That's crazy. That's crazy. So it's like. And whatever happened to the whole, like, do you. Well, I. It might have been a us thing, but it was like, you wouldn't steal a car, would you? Like those ads from the 90s or 2000. Yeah, that was the whole thing. Now it's like, well, an AI company can steal all of everyone's music and, you know, reuse it and stuff like that. But. But we were taught to not. Not do things like this. So it's just. It's interesting. So I. We need to see, like, precedent being set, and that's like, legally precedent being set. And, uh, either some has and it's not in our favor, or none has yet. And it still needs to. But in the meantime, this wild west will just keep you know, going on and. And doing its thing. So. I don't know. I mean, this is a good start. Uh, but it's one platform that, I mean. Do you guys get any listens on title?

Speaker A: Yeah, I get a fair few coming through. Um, yeah. Yeah, not as much as. As on streamers, um, as other streamers. Um, the streamer that may not be named, but the. Yeah, they come through. You're right, though. You've touched on an interesting point in the sense that, you know, um, Tidal isn't exactly considered the. The backbone of streaming services in that regard.

Speaker C: And I don't mean that as an insult, like, this is a good start. I'm just saying, like, I'd love to see, like, you have YouTube and Instagram and stuff where you have. Now, at least on Instagram, uh, you can opt out, but. You have to opt out. But they can reuse your videos and stuff and convert it into AI. Like, it's just by using the platform you're giving permission unless you opt out of it and stuff. Um, and there's no hate on title or anything. It's just like, this is Good. But what I mean is without the legal precedent, it's like these other companies don't have to follow suit and probably aren't going to, you know, there's no reason to or whatever. So that's what I'm getting at. Like that's great. That title's doing that. But we need to see, I think like legal precedents being set with this type of stuff and copyright being actually enforced and utilized. And I don't know if we will. It's so fascinating. This stuff is so crazy. Like AI has its uses, but it's just running rampant with, you know, or beef and all of this stuff. Stuff.

Speaker B: So I find it encouraging that I, uh. Mean, title are often one of those ones that are uh, cited as an alternative to, you know, the, the Platform that Shall Not Be Named. So in that regard I see it as encouraging.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: At least their, their market is the idea of the true quote unquote listener. Right. Or that lossless and all that kind of super high quality. Um, yeah, yeah, they're meant, they're meant to stand for that. And this, this move is in keeping with that line. Right? That move is in keeping with the idea of putting the music first, so to speak.

Speaker B: Um, yeah.

Speaker A: But also just not putting, I mean from a business perspective because this also comes with the idea that those not only will be flagged, um, but those that are flagged, they can't, they can't. They can't enter the charts, but they also can't generate royalties. Right. So, ah, tidal. Sorry, can't give. I wish it was Spotify, but the title. They can't give money. I know, right. They can't give money to these AI generated ideas. So there is, they are creating that distinction that the, the human, the human aspect is fundamentally, the creative aspect has to be fundamentally from a human space which even if it doesn't create much in the grand scheme of things and if it doesn't. Doesn't make any massive changes, what it does do is at least set the. Like you say, set sets their stake in the sand. And then it says, okay, no, we, we are music, human music first and foremost. Which, you know, we're still talking about this in our cons, uh, in. In our echo chamber. Right. We are, we're. Yeah, yeah. Outlet of musicians who make music and are talking mainly to other musicians in that regard. So we are definitely within that chamber. The onus is to keep talking about it and to keep abreast of these developments as they happen in the. Just in the idea of Just keeping the conversation going. So that broadens those horizons slowly. I'm seeing consumers who don't make music or don't particularly live in our world of music business who are starting to latch on and see AI slot come through in their services, both on YouTube and all of the streaming services etc. So we just have to keep going with it. We just have to keep discussing it and keep an open mind when it comes to these things coming through.

Speaker B: What I like about it is the fact that people are making decisions now about where they stand.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: You know, I think for a long time this stuff was blowing up and everybody was going, oh, it's a bit worrying when, of what's going to happen there. And there were some people that were, you know, falling on the gut, the shell, I'm all for it sort of thing. I could make money out of this maybe. And then there are others are going like, no, that's not what we're about. We actually have enough identity to be able to say early on, um, this is what we think. Um, it's nice to see people are gonna, I mean, you know, I think it's getting to crunch time and you know, people are gonna have to make up their minds what they think and what they want to back. Um, do we, I mean, I, I just think it all feeds into the dead Internet theory a little too much for my liking at the moment. You know, a platform full of bots listening to music made by bots. Enjoy yourselves. Ah, make some music. But we'll see. Uh, it feels like a race to the bottom at the moment. But you know, the business breaks will come on because you know, it has to make money. Right. And if your listeners aren't real, then it's not going to make any money, is it? So I don't know, reality check, it could be coming. It's going to be some interesting times.

Speaker C: Sorry. And like, I didn't mean to cut you off. It's just crazy though that it seems like um, these AI music generation companies have a lot of funding at the moment. You know, like it's, it's the big thing right now. So even though you're what I get, you're saying that the, the funding and listens and money drives, I don't get it.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, of all the businesses, music, I mean, it's only people at the very top of that tree that have ever made much money out of music. And we know this. Right. Uh, it's just crazy. It just seems like such an odd target. But you know, I Guess.

Speaker C: But here we are.

Speaker B: If the business case is there, it will happen.

Speaker A: But, but also the it. And I hate, I hate. I'm not saying this in order to take their side, so to speak. I'm just the way that. Oh, definitely not. But the, the way that streamers have changed the outlook of consumption of music both in terms of how we find music, but also the passive kind of consumerist nation of it. Like, you know, you can generate a playlist which is done through an algorithm and it can just be all of the sounds that you like in different orders, but over and over you can have it listening in the background and stuff like that. You know, it's kind of like a radio in that fashion. The market has given us uh, this hyper specific radio where we're not really paying attention and.

Speaker B: Yes. And we're also not being given anything difficult to listen to or we're not being challenged in any way. It's all just like, oh, you like this. Here's more of what you like. You end up being bad at listening to things that you don't like immediately. You know, it makes you, it affects your bias. You know, you could be open minded but after a while you, sometimes you need to be challenged to find something new, something that you do actually see value in. After a little bit of bedding in time, you know, um, not all the music that I love was, you know, something that I immediately liked. Some things are growers as we know. Um, so it kind of feels like it cuts off the avenue to that as well. It's good and bad right. At the same time. Like most things in life. Right. Too much of anything imbalance is, is not great.

Speaker A: No. We shall see how it pans out. I think you're right some more in that regard. The idea of having this then backed up in legislation is the next step in order.

Speaker B: Class action lawsuits, uh, flying already, aren't there? Uh, yeah, people have had their, you know, these, these models shouldn't exist but they exist because they've been trained on everyone's work. So you know, I assume we're all on a percentage right. The profits for that. Right. So we'll see what happens with the class action suits that are being raised and, and so on. See if these companies can survive this initial blitz scaling of, of like corporate funding. You blitz scale, you become huge. You uh, squeeze out any competition. You know, we'll make money later. The problem with AI in, in general at the moment seems to be it doesn't scale very well and, and then the, the uh, the evolution of the technology is too fast. And to keep replacing physical infrastructure and so on. It's incredibly expensive in the real world. And there's no real argument that the profit margins are there. So I think ultimately what you might start to see is these things start to fall back because, yeah, you can do it, but it's not cost effective to do it at the moment.

Speaker A: Especially when we all start running out of water. It becomes a problem in its own right.

Speaker B: And I'm trying to. Trying to eat Velvet Sundown lps for dinner.

Speaker A: Amazing. I've heard they're particularly crunchy. Um, it must be that. That real analog warmth which comes through, which makes them particularly crunchy.

Speaker B: Did you see they've got a tribute band now?

Speaker A: Oh my. You're kidding.

Speaker B: There's a human tribute band to an AI band.

Speaker C: I forgot about that. That whole thing.

Speaker A: That's pretty spectacular. That's pretty spectacular in that regard.

Speaker B: I do like someone's sense of humor there.

Speaker A: I mean, that would be. That would be a fantastic way to kind of put, uh, the middle finger to AI having a human cover band that's actually more successful than the A.I.

Speaker B: yeah, especially. Yeah, that's. That's the goal, apparently.

Speaker C: So is that music. Is that music, um, of theirs copyright? Because I thought there was a thing that said AI not copyright. So anybody.

Speaker B: At least not in the U.S. yeah. Yeah. Presumably you can copyright your cover versions.

Speaker C: Interesting. That's crazy.

Speaker A: How amazing would that be?

Speaker C: Maybe they did. Maybe that cover band has.

Speaker A: That'd be amazing. I'll be down for that. The pushback continues, and I think all we can do. I don't think it's a, ah. I don't think it's this big, uh, declaration that we need to make on a consistent basis. I think it's just about having these conversations through and through.

Speaker B: Um, I think the world is catching up with all of this stuff. Right. Somebody had an idea, ran off ahead, and then like, the world is beginning to catch up with these things and there's a bit of a reality check going on, perhaps. I mean, you know that these tech bros don't go, uh, get it. When the sooner CEO is saying that people don't enjoy making music. Can you be any more wrong at all? So, you know, if you've built your business around misconceptions like that, then, you know, good luck to you because you're gonna need it.

Speaker A: It's pure gaslighting in that regard. Um, they'll say anything they want to sell a product. Right. And they'll. They'll even lie to our faces. Um.

Speaker B: Wow. Yeah. It's their job to, you know, they've got to make that money back. They've been lent a lot of money.

Speaker A: Yeah. And it's all based on a false promise. You know the. Yeah. We just have to keep having these conversations and see them coming through. It's good to see these things come through. I don't think anything. Like you say, somewhat will happen until legislation backs it up, which won't happen until people are demanding it. I've started to see that, started to see that pushback. Started to see those who recognize AI music come up on their playlists and come up on their radios when they're using streamers and they're actively saying, no, we don't want that. Um, these things take time. These things take a lot of time. It's nice to know that in some respects companies like Tidal have our. At least don't have our backs. They might be doing stuff that benefit us in the long run.

Speaker C: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker A: Mhm, mhm. Any more on that? Or should we, in the name of human, ah, created endeavors, should move on to our next section of the show?

Speaker B: Let us move forward, onwards and upwards.

Speaker A: Yeah, well this is when, this is when the pressure kicks in, gents. Um, at least. Yeah, um, we've been away and we've all been doing our own thing. Um, you know, we automated the channel for a couple of weeks, um, put everything down, bumbled away and the idea was just to kind of take things on our, on our own, take things through. I just, I was curious as to see what has been happening, what's been going down. I know that some uh, more people you've been chugging away on your channel and you've been chugging away on uh, an album release coming up. Hey, Chris Head, welcome to the show. It's nice to see you. Hey, um, we've just hit the section where we're talking about our summons. So tell us what you've been doing. Tell us what you've been up to. Um, yeah, but also Aeon, like, you know, I haven't seen you since we batch recorded all that stuff before summer. Um, maybe in the name of putting uh, you on your toes, what you been doing? What's the studio?

Speaker C: Oh, that's harsh, man.

Speaker B: I, I have been carrying on in a similar vein to before. Not had a huge amount of time for music but um, trying to take my own advice and keep plugging away small um, bits here and there reviews out the studio so that I know what I'M doing when I come back and stuff. I've also taken my advice a little bit more, made a bit of space around my drum kit over there so that I can actually play it. Which is good because things have been quite stressful for me and I find playing drums really does it. It's a real break. Yeah, yeah. It's just. I have. If I play for 20 minutes, there's 20 minutes when I haven't been thinking about something which is better than I can do when asleep. So it's. It's really good. So I've been trying to do that more. I've also, um, planned um, a couple of effects into my mixer so that I can just take any synth and plug it into the input of the. Yes, the uh, Night sky and uh, Starlight Echo Station and basically just running the Moog and the mini log through it most of the time and just trying to find interesting analogy tonalities and so on. Inspiring sounds and so on. Um, I've gotten really sick of just adding stuff later. Um, I feel like I need to do a lot more sound design at the moment. I need to be interested by a sound. I might have a part written already. Um, but uh, I want the sounds to be a little less out of the packet and then treated in the mix or as part of the recording process. I want it to be a sound already that you record as is and just tweak to make it fit in the mix. And I've done a few songs like that for the, for the new album and there were long sort of jams with particular types of sounds that I think worked out well. I don't know what anyone else will think, but I enjoyed it and I like the result and I want to do more stuff like that. So, yeah, some m. Slight different changes to workflows. I've also been building a bunches of racks in live where um, certain types of probability or effects or chains or types of instrument with splits in tonality and stuff all just sort of grouped together so that I could save that as a block and recall it whenever I need to and have customized almost making instruments out of sort of midi tools and VSTs and effects chains all sort of bundled together. So yeah, it's Ableton, but I mean you could do that in any, any door I imagine, where you just create your own rack really of stuff that can be played as an instrument is all self contained and again has its own character. You know, it might have a granular element to it. Um, I've also reached A point where I just. I just don't have that much money. Right. So I'm not going to be buying lots of hardware. So I've been thinking, what so much of this stuff is available in software now. How can you build a virtual instrument or a virtual instrument and a bunch of effects and so on to approximate, you know, the workflow that you get in that. And there are ways, you know, with some max for live tools and. And so on. So I'm kind of interested in building out some interesting and useful tools like that natively in Ableton too. I've kind of been busy.

Speaker A: It sounds like. I was gonna say it sounds like you've been really busy, you know, doing like.

Speaker B: Well, I'm. Yeah, well, uh, the family's watching a film, so I don't get to do. I have to watch a film too. But I'm on this sneakily building an effect enabled tomorrow, doing it. So time hacking, you know, maximization of time.

Speaker A: Right, maximization of time.

Speaker B: It's the only way I'd be able to do all that. But yeah, I've got other ideas.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, this is. That was going to be my next question. Has that provided you with any kind of more sense of direction about where you want to go and what you want to do?

Speaker B: I think so, yeah. It's just gotta finish this album I'm doing in the meantime. I've got way too much material for it now. Now that I've added it up, absolutely no chance it would fit on a cd. So, um. Yeah, I. I've got some edits to do as well as some mixes, but it's, um, it's definitely final stages now.

Speaker A: Well, that's good to hear. I think a lot of people have been clamoring to hear it for a long time, so it's good to hear that it's coming through in that regard.

Speaker B: Yeah, I want to release it now so that I know what I think about it. Be done with it, you know, that psychological switch. Because at the moment it's still like. Well, you could still change it if you wanted to. I don't plan to fundamentally, but you know what I mean, Once it's done and you've forgotten about it, then you can really know what you think. And I quite liked you.

Speaker A: Well, maybe it's time, once you get to that point, to have a conversation with Cresshead, uh, who is looking to do vinyl and stuff on their album through Elastic State, which is something I still haven't experimented with myself. Um, I know a lot of People play around with it. Time to go forward in that regard. What about you, Samoa? How is the album coming along? How is your. How has your summer been treating?

Speaker C: Well, album's taking an interesting turn, but I haven't been able to work on it in a while. But it's, it's, it, uh, the. What is it? Inferno from Boards of Canada really took, uh, me on a different path, let's say. But I do have an EP coming, uh, what, September? So that'll be something. Um, but it. The EP came from and now the album partly too. This whole workflow I've been developing and experimenting with for my, like, basically I've doubled down on limitation, right? Like just do one thing at a time. And because of some of these limitations of using samplers like the MPC or, uh, I just have them all laying around, don't I? The SB404, they don't do multi track audio, right? So I send in a jam that like, I make the full idea, make a full arrangement, send it into the daw, and then I stem split it and then, and then from there I no longer have the issues I have with a daw, where it's like I open a blank page and I'm like, I. There's too much, like there's too many synths to choose from, too many plugins and I just keep adding things kind of like what Ian like was saying, where it's like, you could change it, you could change it. Well, here I'm stuck with stems and I try to force myself to like use them as they are. Unless, like the mix is God awful. But even then I'll try to just put a filter and then add like additional drums. But the idea is I've passed that blank pattern issue and now when I want to use the daw, it's with intent of. Okay, I do want to add some MIDI synths so I know exactly where I want to put them. I know exactly the kind of melody I want and all that. But the bass arrangement is done and I'm just kind of adding embellishment and ear candy and stuff. So it really helped me get out of the idea of just like endlessly tweaking settings and stuff like that. And um, yeah, so that, that's the biggest thing is like embracing the limitations. And I even do that in every step of the process. Like, I use that. Whoa, this is mirrored, isn't it? That's crazy. I use this patch bay. Sorry, I gotta like, I use this patch bay so that I'm only Using one synth at a time, it goes into those effects. I have another effect on the um, desk too that I send. You can see the microcosm that I send some stuff into. Um, and then that goes into whatever sampler I'm using. And I'm only using one sampler at a time. So like just use the one, get some samples in, chop them up, build the song, build the arrangement, and then send it into the daw as a perform jam. Not necessarily like just running a sequence, right? Because I want the mistakes. I want the like while I'm in the flow of oh, I want this pattern now. I want this pattern like all of that's captured into the. The daw so that it's like, um, it's. It's preserved as like the human intent of it and all that. I don't know. I just find it really works.

Speaker A: Well, okay, when you say what is it giving you? I understand the idea of the limitations and not getting the paralysis and analysis. Are you finding you more at peace with the work that you're making?

Speaker C: I mean, I guess I'm more at peace, but I, I prefer the work I'm making now because one thing I really like is I may use a chord progression in different keys repeatedly, right? Or like different ways of playing it or something. But then I can chop it up and make something totally new. So I. I get out of the sort of sounds and chord interactions that I typically go with. I want to just like it. Uh, I may use those still. But then when you chop them up, right, it's no longer a 16 flat third. It's like going to this div. You're using the flat third first. So you completely change the. The theory behind it and all that. Like the actual chord progression and the interactions. Or I may take just a single section of it and put it in chromatic mode and play it across the keyboard. So you get all major keys or all minor keys yet it works, you know. So, um, it's a way to get out of the established norms that I have in my workflow. Like when I play guitar I like to go to this chord and you know, like this shape, you know. Or on keyboard I like to do this melodic structure. Well, I may do it still, but once you chop it up re pitch it, put it in chromatic mode, it's like it's nothing like that anymore. So you've got the same breaking habits. Exactly. But more than just breaking the habit, you have the same basis or like wealth of knowledge or depth of knowledge. But you can use it in totally different ways. You would. I would never think of, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's good. I like that.

Speaker A: Uh, it becomes harder and harder as we do this, more and more to break those patterns. Right. And to step outside your comfort zone and find something you yourself find novel and you yourself are challenged by it. I mean, that sounds like a wonderful way in which. That you're tackling that particular note.

Speaker C: It's kind of. It's kind of by necessity because I have, like, no time in the studio. So by breaking it into this way, it's like, okay, I can do sound design on my iPad and Logic, send those synths into the sampler in a different session. Then in the next session, maybe get stuff from the Dallas desk in the next session, build the idea, you know, so it's like you can compartmentalize and break it into steps. But then it actually is the most fun I've had in doing that because I'm not staring at a screen. I'm not like. And I just. I love sequencing on samplers and any, like, hardware group box and stuff because it's much more of, like, a interactive way of sampling. You can pattern change, sure. But even playing the sample, the sequences in like. Okay, this pattern now, now this pattern, like, it's just this interactive instrument rather than just like, I'm just going across a dog, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: And I'm sure, like, what's it called? Ableton is similar if you're using it in that one view. I. I always forget the view names. Well, I don't feel as bad then. But the one where you can, like, do the loops and stuff like you usually use Curtis. Um, so I'm sure you can do a lot of that there. But just for me, like, this has really helped me. That just gets so bored and overwhelmed in, um. In, uh, Dawes.

Speaker B: Typically, like any dog computers, they're just. I mean, they're the best tool for the job a lot of the time, but at the same time, it stops feeling like a tool when you're starting from scratch with them. Uh, uh, I mean, you're using different ways to me, but I think we're both doing the same thing, like generating material outside the door to jump in it, and then suddenly you're off to the races immediately. You know, you can start hacking things up and repitching and doubling and doing whatever the hell you like, but you. What you're not doing is looking at an empty arrangement and thinking, what shall I put in this.

Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I. Feels a lot more natural, a lot more human. And I don't know, those seem to be the right ways to go for me at the moment. The zeitgeist. Embrace the human.

Speaker C: Yeah. Because what about you, Curtis?

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I just wanted to engage with saying in the same regard, the idea of if we're not. I don't know about you guys, but the idea of having something in a daw and having something that you're producing to finally put out into the world creates the air, whether you create yourself or whatever, of perfection or finished or being done right. Whereas these mistakes that you make when you're playing an instrument normally and just playing and practicing are there. So if you're. If you're sequencing something through a groove box or if you are. If you are triggering loops on some sort of piece of hardware, you're more inclined to be accepting of those mistakes, which we all love anyway. And it's a. It's. It's a beautiful. It's a beautiful place in which to be. Because you don't have to suddenly think about whether your drums are hitting perfect perfectly or whether that bass is thick enough or anything like that. It can just be what it is.

Speaker C: You can't do eight bass tracks. Man.

Speaker B: This is slapping enough.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: It's.

Speaker A: It's a good place to be. It's a much good place to be. Um, we got cress heads flow here. So he's been, uh, removed. The rhythm scenes, uh, move. Sorry, not removed. Moved. Rhythm scenes. Uh, set mpc. Then I use the NPC to write vocals. Then mute the rhythm on the NPC and sync to live rhythm. Hit Go. And that is my song recorded on a stereo SP404.

Speaker B: There we go. I love Beautiful. I love this. Complete custom workflow.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And tools that I'm gonna use. That, that, that. And that's it. And that's Love it.

Speaker A: And it's all made.

Speaker B: We're doing things differently.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Sounds cool.

Speaker A: It is cool. Um, it's a really fun time to be making electronic music in that sense because. Because when it started, obviously everything was kind of geared around the computer. And it's kind of has become centralized around the screen in which we're talking about. But now there's so many opportunities and there's so many ways in which we can do things which don't involve, uh, computers. And it's just. It's just so.

Speaker B: And if a computer is all that you have, there are still also ways of. Of replicating some of these External workflows in the computer that. One of my favorite sequences in the Eurorack is the Renee Mark II which is like it's a grid of 16 knobs and you can set a pitch on each one and you can set the path it uses through it. But there's a Max for Live device that does it in Ableton as well. So yeah I do it virtually as well as with that. It's a lot cheaper to do it in Max for Life.

Speaker C: Uh, or even using like Koala, you know where it's like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Very limited. I mean it's not that limited and they've added a lot but it's like a very self contained workflow.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And. And that helps for me. I really enjoy that. It's got to be playful. I think there's one thing that I did want to point out at some point after our return is that in a time when it feels like there's a lot more doom, it's not. It's not very good time to be trying to market music or to improve your reach. The tools aren't really working so well for us anymore. It's more. More their masters. But the important thing to remember is music is as much fun if not more so than it ever has been up till now. Forget what the Suno guy says, it is actually it. It's more fun than it's ever been still. And um, thank God for that.

Speaker A: Yes, it's a great.

Speaker B: That's to what to focus on for me anyways. The decision I made is make something you'd like, you know, and enjoy making it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: No one could take that from you. No matter how dark it gets, we'll still have that.

Speaker A: Well to uh, Palia for that again Cress head. There's no way, there's no one way to do this. The solar. The goal is just to get stuff done songs out and have fun with doing it. Right. It's the only, the only real objective.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, I do think though if you can find a new way to do it in the process that is a bonus.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally. As long as you're happy in that regard.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker A: Yeah. Done are the days of trying to hit something some externalized goal of success and it's just about being playful, being artistic now more than ever. Especially piggybacking off this whole AI debate. There's no better time just to go balls deep into the notion of having fun with what you do. Um. Can't have it any other way. Can't have it any other way. Um. Sounds like you've had some productive summers then, gentlemen. There's been a lot of things coming through.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the brain has stretched out a little bit and done a bit of thinking. I, I, I, um, dialed back to social media a lot and tried to give my brain a little more space, and that helped and gave me some ideas about what I want to do next. My nasty feeling Boards of Canada might have preempted me, though. I might have to think of something different.

Speaker C: I love that new album, man. It is so good. I'm still listening to it like, what, two months later? Like almost daily. It's just so good. It's so different, but so good. It got me exploring melodic and harmonic minor, like, way more. Uh, and all those.

Speaker A: Is that your album of this? Is that your album of the season?

Speaker C: That's my album of the year. I mean, I don't think anything's gonna top that one for me this year, man. It's so good.

Speaker B: I've always liked harmonic minor. Melodic. I haven't used this.

Speaker C: Melodic is, uh, crazy. Like, if you use it in the right ways or if you do that jazz way. Where is it? What is it? Melodic down, harmonic back up, or I forget which it is, but the jazz way is the alternating them. That crazy?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What's your album?

Speaker B: Sorry?

Speaker A: What's your album? What you've been listening to over the summer season.

Speaker B: What have I been listening to? Me.

Speaker C: Is here.

Speaker B: No, I mean, this is a byproduct of working on it. What have I been listening to? Uh, nothing's really springing to mind. I've been casting around a bit. I've still been listening to a lot of Max Cooper, uh, since, since his gig. His gig was. Absolutely. Blew my socks off. Loved it.

Speaker C: Doesn't he use a bunch of, like, really cool visuals? Or am I thinking someone else?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's kind of. They plastered the entire arena with it. You're kind of inside. There are two layers of it on the stage and he's in between them. Brilliant, brilliant stuff. I've been listening, listening to a fair bit of him. I've been listening to a load of, um, uh, more post rock, um, ambient style stuff. I'm returning to things like hammock and stuff like that, I think.

Speaker C: Didn't they just put out an album?

Speaker B: Yeah, they've got a new one out. It's more about. I've, uh, been listening to things for tonality. The types of sounds that people use. Yeah, exactly. People who have a look at a sound of their own and, you know what that might consist of. I've been looking again at what, what it is that I like, what makes me tick. So that when I do my music, I'm doing stuff, you know, uh, I'm trying to write music that I like because I can't write music that other people like. I don't know how to do that. I'll have to write music for me instead and hope other people like it. And I think I haven't done that as well as I could maybe in the past, you know, I want to write stuff I like more. So I've been trying to research what that is by casting around a bit. Going through old, uh, Going through the old MP3 library of all my music I've ever owned, you know, to see what I can do.

Speaker A: I mean, exploration is how you kind of come up with that inspiration, right?

Speaker B: Yeah. I find I. I need to be listening to other people's music to think of anything myself. In fact, I think of more of my own ideas, listening to other people's stuff than I do when I'm just trying to think about my own ideas. So I mean, it's kind of like I almost have distract my brain to allow it to do what I want it to do.

Speaker A: I mean that, I mean that's a cool. It's a cool way to go. Textures and tonality and then, uh, scaling. I don't know much about harmonic minor or anything like that. So I'm open. So you're gonna have to educate us at some point.

Speaker C: Just try it, man. It's crazy.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Well, there you go.

Speaker C: Yeah, it gets closer to the major version. Like a melodic minor is almost a major. It's. It's sharps. Some of what makes the minors, like there's flats and minors, right. It sharps those and brings them back to what would be like the major or whatever. So it's weird though because it gets darker the closer you get. Because it's like so off from major with that one little like um, whatever. But yeah, so it's. It's funny how it like gets closer to it, but then it actually is like a much darker thing. But that's just perspective because there's like that one little off bit just makes it sound so. Off from what we would think of that.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's the cl. The clashing of tones in that. In that is a lot.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: In that regard, like, I mean a

Speaker C: lot of metal music is like harmonic minor. So you hear that kind of like style you. If you hear harmonic minor, you'll Be like, oh, yeah, that's metal. But melodic minor is. Is very weird and like jazzy, but really dark. I don't know. It's crazy. But, um, a lot of what they're doing on that album though, isn't either of those. It's really, really just, um. Where is it? Um. Not Chromatic Medium, but they're. Is it. But they're borrowing chords from other keys or just using clashing chords. Like, there's one song where they keep one note between the two chords, but the rest of the notes are just completely wrong for each other. And there's actually like an interplay because of it. But so there's like no commonality between the two chords besides that one note. And it's just so clashing and it makes it so dark and it's really interesting. And then when they do use. There's one song too that's all major keys, but it's like the darkest song on the album. So it's just funny how you can do that. They use the tritone. So even though it's major, it's like a tritone interaction and it just has this dark, dark, uh, sound to it. It's just crazy. Like, all the theory in there is. Is fascinating.

Speaker B: It's kind of unusual in this day and age.

Speaker C: Yeah, well, that's the thing. Like, you know, I. I don't. They. I saw somebody on YouTube was saying they think they used AI for some of the vocal processing maybe, and they may have used some AI for stuff. But like, I don't think AI can do those sorts of. At least yet. Like those sorts of, um, weird chord progressions and all the instruments they're using and the textures and like, the background sounds and stuff. Like maybe with curation from someone, you know, like altering things that the AI creates. Sure. But like, I. I think a lot of what it's sourcing from is just generic, like major key, minor key things and stuff like that. So I don't think it's gonna. If you ask ChatGPT, like, oh, give me a Boards of Canada chord progression. And I've done that just out of curiosity. Like it's not going to be anywhere near. It might use a borrowed chord. Be like, oh, we'll flap the third. And there you go. That's going to be the, uh, the Boards of Canada sound. But it. It's really going to say like, oh, use some LFO on the pitch. And, uh, here's like this.

Speaker B: Yeah. Make it sound wonky.

Speaker C: Yeah. And the chord progression is gonna just be like a 1, 5, 6, 4 major key. You know, like the most cliche sound, and it's like, okay, cool. So, you know, there is something to that, too. Like, I think. I think AI stuff is the. I think even Crescent might have mentioned it, but. Yeah. AI music is generic music. Audio wallpaper. Because. Yeah, that's what it's meant to be. Like the average. So mean. Right.

Speaker A: So, yeah, Audio wallpaper. Yeah.

Speaker B: It's like, um, also complete. The music m. Based on everything that's been done up till now.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it just creates the mean. What. From what's happened before. It's not pushing the boundaries of what we can do.

Speaker C: Exactly.

Speaker B: That's, uh, our job.

Speaker A: That's our job. It's good fun. I like it that way. Um, it's interesting to hear about your summers, for sure. I mean, the. I have not. I've barely thought and done anything with music for the last five weeks. Six weeks. Um, I turned them on to make sure everything was working when I came back a couple of days ago. Um, and I just. I haven't. I haven't. I haven't got to the stage where I can, uh, start playing it. Um, not falling training. Um, but it's been nice.

Speaker B: Instruments is fun.

Speaker A: Well, this is it. Right. And I've just. I've had other things. Well, that's. This. That's. That's one thing. Um, and I. I was doing a lot of that before I left, but it's been so nice just to step away. I can't remember the last time I didn't do anything with music for a period of like, six, seven weeks. Six weeks, five weeks. Six weeks. One of the numbers.

Speaker C: Um.

Speaker A: And, you know, I. I did it. I was absorbing a few things. Um, but I wasn't. I even took Ableton Note away with me. I think I. I opened it up on a bus once, and then within about 30 seconds, I just went back to my book. Um, and that's fine. And that's great. And it's amazing. Um, it's been all about the words. It's been all about the reading for. For six weeks in the world. Right. For someone who tries to step away from the world as much as possible, uh, to re. Enter and become fully enveloped in everything that's going on for six weeks. It's been quite fun.

Speaker B: Um, you need to feed your head if one way or the other, don't you?

Speaker A: Well, this is it, right? Like, you have to feed your head in some form. But also, I, like, I took a lot of. I used to do a lot of uh, stuff that was using samples and taking long winded vocal samples and things like that and kind of lost momentum in that and lost desire to kind of attach myself to that. Um, because, you know, it's just shouting into the void in that regard. Right? He just started shouting into the void. He's just another voice shouting into the void. Which is, you know, not necessarily bad, but you know, do you want to be another voice in the void?

Speaker C: Um,

Speaker B: I think it's important to keep shouting.

Speaker A: It's important to keep shouting. Well, this is the conclusion I've kind of come to.

Speaker B: And it's like maybe it's the void, maybe it's the whirling infinite shout at it. It's the main thing as long as

Speaker A: you're doing something, you know. So, yeah, I think, I think there's room for that, but I don't. I think the last time I spent six weeks without playing an instrument must have been before I started the Curtis Project. So for me like that was what, nearly 10 years ago now.

Speaker B: Like that's kind of what you wanted to do though, wasn't it? Sort of inspired by the likes of, uh, Shady Ridge Hydro, Fighter and our good friends.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm looking forward to a bit of summer off. Yeah, they've been. But they've been, they've been working so I'm looking forward to seeing where they come from or what they're doing, what's, what's happened. But yeah, it's time to get back to work, I think.

Speaker C: I just, I just want to add something because I uh, am always reminded of this quote when I feel like I'm.

Speaker A: Well, uh.

Speaker C: It's not a quote and I'll explain what I mean in a second. But whenever I feel like I need to get back to work or like I need to use X instrument or you know, this or that or I haven't played. There was. I used to subscribed to, I think it was Guitar World, one of the guitar magazines. And they would always interview like guitarists, uh, like you know, big touring guitarists. There's this one shred guitarist like from the 80s or whatever before me. I didn't even know who it was, but he was in like a really popular band at the time. I can't remember. This was years and years ago, like probably 15, 20 years ago that I read this thing. But I remember him saying he used to never do it. But now in his like, you know, whatever age or whatever at the time I was reading that's like 2006, six, something like that. He was like, uh, I'll go two, three, four weeks without even playing a guitar. And he's like, when I come back to it, I have so much more perspective and like, things I want to explore and try and stuff like that. And I always think of that, like, it was just, there's that time away, gives you, um, some distance from it, and then you come back with a fresh perspective. It's the same thing when I'm mixing an album or like, finishing an album or mastering someone's album. If I'm really enveloped in it, I'll take a little time off, come back to it with fresh ears, you know. So I like that. And I, I can't remember he said something. It was like, you know, he may not come back as technically proficient, but he has all these ideas just like, waiting to try and like, uh, or just new things he wouldn't think of because he took this time away. I, I, I have to try to find that, um, because it always sticks in my brain whenever I'm like, oh, I haven't touched piano. You know, I haven't used a piano in a song or played piano in like three weeks. And it's like, well, yeah, I mean, it is good to practice, and there is that. And like, you have to get. I'm not saying I'm at the point of like, the shred guitar stuff was amazing at guitar, but, like, you do have to get to some level of proficiency before you can really, like, take that. But like you said, you've done it for 10 years, right? Take some time away, come back to it with a fresh head, fresh perspective.

Speaker A: It's true. And I, I, it's interesting you bring that up, uh, because you're completely correct. And I think you have to be kind to yourself in that process. So I came back on, I came back last Thursday, turned everything on on Friday, right when I got up, and I was like, and I sat down at this desk, you know, I had my ritual, you know, I let, uh, let me incense, I did my prayers, I did all that. And in my head I was like, right, be creative, go. And obviously nothing happened. And you can't. You know, that was a, just a waste of time. The period of taking that step away is incredibly important and that, and it's good to be intentional with what you're trying to do. But the notion of letting it unfold and letting it be and being part and reminding yourself about that process and it coming in its own natural time is incredibly important in that Regard as well, um, take the time off, structure it, you know, return to it. But, uh, don't, as you say, don't necessarily affect it. Expect to come back to that same level of proficiency as you come to. Yeah, yeah, completely. You some, uh, more pro. Got about five minutes. So why don't we have a community track before we wrap up?

Speaker C: Let's do it. I just want to quickly read, um, Half God, Half Beast, uh, they said I used to find that when I played bass, if I gave it a break for a while, when I picked it up again, it seemed better. Yeah. Except for the uh, the calluses. Right. I mean that. Oh man, when I take a break from guitar and come back, it's like, ow.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's true. It's. Yeah. No pain, no gain. You have to kind of work on that. But, you know, the drive is there, the proficiency is there, the desire to be better is there. Yeah, absolutely. Um, well, in the name of, uh, in the name of pushing our comfort zones and not just being fed to something, um, the latest release on airpoint Records is what I want to bring, uh, to the table today. This is by TW&family and it's Landon Lambdon, I think is how you pronounce it. I mean if it's. Unless it's, uh, I'm getting that wrong. But this, this is, this. I see this as the, as this kind of crossroads between noise and melodica in this regard. Um, and it's very much from what we were discussing at the beginning of the show. This idea of, uh, stepping out of one comfort zone, like I say, uh, and finding something that's perhaps difficult to listen to because I think it's beautiful in that regard. Um, so I'll read the blurb and we'll play it through. Have either of you seen this at all before we go into it? Uh, it's cool. Um, um. So, um. TW grew up on the streets of London, uh, London, Ontario. And the imprint of this nondescript mid sized Canadian town has lingered. Taking inspiration from his early years in the other London, TW has handcrafted a fracture and fragmentary tale told through disparate guitar pluckings, found sounds and echo chamber vocals. Uh, misremembered sounds, uh, spellings and sights forming the backbone of the music. Um, which is a hell of a synopsis.

Speaker C: Um, sounds like Lars.

Speaker A: Yeah, very much. And I mean it's error prone recording.

Speaker C: Yeah,

Speaker A: he's.

Speaker C: I don't say that sarcastically. No, it's eloquent writing for sure. I mean, fringes you know, so.

Speaker A: Absolutely. And yes, half God, half beast. Uh, it does look like London in a London accent because we're from down land in is. But close enough, right? Close enough, exactly. So track three, London warm, uh, underscore warm tree breeze. Uh, stuck to me. Stuck. Stuck out to me when I was listening to it. Um, so let's play that, uh, to close the show. Let's play this through.

Speaker C: There we go.

Speaker A: Sail. Mhm.

Speaker B: It. Mhm.

Speaker A: Cool. Okay.

Speaker C: I like all the, the sounds bouncing around the stereo spectrum. That's cool.

Speaker A: It is, yeah. I, uh, I don't know if you're getting the stereo. Obviously I'm. I'm hosting, so I get the stereo coming through.

Speaker C: I got the stereo.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, I don't know if it comes through the, um, the show, but yeah, there's all these like, noises bouncing around the stereo. Feel cool.

Speaker A: It's lush and very. Again, the idea of something that's very, uh, that pushes against the standard structures of things and that just, you know, we get intrinsically attached to these ideas of how a song should be and how a song should be, how a song should be structured out and just to kind of throw that completely out the window and go with your own things. It's beautifully avant garde. Beautifully avant garde, yeah.

Speaker B: Freeing.

Speaker A: Freeing. Very freeing.

Speaker C: Eon's next album's a noise album. He's gonna pause the album he's been working on and make a noise album. Yeah, I can see it. I see the fire in his eyes.

Speaker B: Old mixes being used to generate noise.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good idea. Throw it through. Um, it's lovely. Ah, to be back. Chris said. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you, guys.

Speaker A: We're back on the weekly accountability of. Exactly. Uh, yes, we are back on the weekly accountability of getting Eon Lake's album out into the world.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I've done the artwork. That's all done.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: Finish the actual album.

Speaker A: Yeah, finish the actual album.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: I like to sort of, you know, do a bit of one upmanship between the two. Let them fight each other a bit.

Speaker A: Are we, Are we looking at. Are we at the stage of like tentative release dates or anything like that, or is it too early for that kind of thing?

Speaker B: It's a bit early at the moment because I need to look into pressing and yeah, mastering software.

Speaker A: Right. Uh, okay.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm gonna do a proper file for it and get glass masters done.

Speaker A: Well, uh, looking forward to that. Um, it's been lovely to sit down with you gents. I'm glad that we're back. It's nice to get back on the horse, as they say.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, yeah, especially the three of us.

Speaker A: Exactly. It's beautiful, right? It's absolutely beautiful. It's been lovely to have you back. Uh, for now. Some warper. Uh, yeah.

Speaker C: Good to be back today.

Speaker A: Yeah, we look forward to seeing you soon at some point, um, whenever that may be. Yeah, we'll be back next week, um, and we'll have some sort of demo in the, in the pipeline. That's the idea. Uh, we've got to think about that one be going through. There's a few load of new plugins that have come out over the couple, uh, of weeks while we've been off. So I'm going to take a dump through there and have a look. Um, and we'll be back. So. Yeah, thank you ever so much for joining us. If you want more in the meantime, ah, head across to our discord. Um, that's where the conversation continues throughout the week. Um, and yeah, um, have a great week. We'll see you next time. Ciao for now.