Native Instruments Has Been Acquired… Now What?

Speaker A: We are there with episode 207. Welcome, good morning, good evening, wherever you happen to be. It is the 207th episode of ADSN, and we are, uh, joined this week by our own Lars. How are you doing, bro?

Speaker B: I'm doing fantastic. You'll see that. I'm up in the kitchen living room today because my wife gets to work from home now, too. So I'm trying to be cool.

Speaker A: I know, right? That's good. You've got your own space. You got everything you need doing and you've got your Skittles drink, which is of it. Everything's great.

Speaker B: It's so good. I don't know what's in it. So good.

Speaker A: We have to find out. Um, we are also here with Eon. How are you doing, bro? Haven't seen you in a minute.

Speaker C: I'm good, thanks. Yeah, I'm good. Yeah.

Speaker A: Do you. Do you have pharmaceutical sugar there for you?

Speaker C: I don't know. I've just got water.

Speaker A: We're gonna have to keep that going, uh, to have the end. But you're doing well.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Speaker A: That's what we need. That's what we need. We have a load of people in the chat today. Seems like everyone has turned out to join in on the conversation, uh, concerning native instruments and in music. I didn't realize that it would be such a. Such a topic. People have been coming out and seeing what they're doing. We've got.

Speaker C: We're all very pink waving.

Speaker A: Have you got hand, pink waving? Uh, where are we smiling, Cress head? We've got pink hand waving, blue space. Uh, we've got a drift audio there. Hey, nice to see you. I hope you're doing well. We got Abby, as ever. Howdy. Uh, it's nice to see you consistently here. Beautiful. Also smiling errors, saying hi to Abby as well.

Speaker C: Um, you can chat to each other too.

Speaker A: It's cool. And that's what this is for, right? That's why we do this live. We do this live for the chat, for the conversations, for the. In as much as in person as you can get. Um, so, yeah, chat away. We've got. We've got a lot to be getting through today. We are starting with the news from native instruments, which, um, you know, isn't, uh, I think came out two weeks ago, but last week we did a demo. I was like, nah, I'm gonna do a demo. It's more important. Um, and then we're gonna have a round robin, because I don't think we've done a round robin. For a while. Um, yes. Anyway, I'll catch my breath and we will. We will breathe for a second. Just allow the anxiety to flow through my body before getting into the news. That's of kind.

Speaker B: Cool.

Speaker A: Uh, but this is the Deep breath. Exactly. Uh, this is the. We're going to go straight into it today. Um, because. Why not? Why not at all. Um, we're going to bring it. This is the news that, um. Yes, Native Instruments has been bought out, uh, by In Music. Um, this has come about from the last couple of months. The last one. Was it last month they filed for bankruptcy. Um, I think. Lars, I think you're still kind of recovering from that, aren't you? Really?

Speaker B: That was really fast. Like, they went from bankruptcy to acquired in a month. That's. That's insanely fast.

Speaker A: It is. But also, I mean, you'd expect it from something like Native Instruments. They are such a. They're such a big player in what we do. It would make sense that it's like, you know, it's too. Almost too big to fail to borrow that wonderful phrase from 2008.

Speaker B: I don't like that phrase.

Speaker C: Learn the error of our ways there. But at the same time, it's a huge customer base, and that's kind of why it's important. And obviously, while we're talking about it. But from an acquisition point of view, if you're. Even if you're just trying to, you know, acquire the customers, it's worth it. From a certain point of view.

Speaker B: Yeah. I'm just really hoping that they don't mess things up. You know, it's always possibility.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, I get like that with. Anytime somebody does something really good, I think this is so good, you're bound to mess it up. I stress about stuff like that anyway, but that's more to do with, uh, my psychology than anything in the real

Speaker A: world, I think makes sense. I mean. I mean, let's. Let's take a look at this. Like, I mean, this in Music. It's not their first big takeover in a while. They also. They seem to be taking up various people, and even Native Instruments had their fair share of what? They also have Isotope in there as well.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they, uh, think. Yeah, they just started buying up other companies. Like they were. Like they just had money to burn, which apparently they did not.

Speaker A: Apparently they did not. Yeah, but this is the thing, right? So you've got this company buying out lots of smaller companies and taking them under their umbrella, and then you've got this bigger whale coming in and just Basically taking native instruments. So evidently native instruments are scaled too quickly and bought on too quickly. They've gone into bankruptcy and now inmusic are doing it because they themselves are owning things like Moog. Who else are they owning?

Speaker B: Hit me bearing her right, didn't you. Didn't you say Behringer earlier?

Speaker C: Yeah, they do. I could. I could rattle off a list for you if you like.

Speaker B: Ah, let's do it here.

Speaker C: Let's see, they've got new Mark, um, Air, do those nice soft synths. Auto Professional, M Audio, Denon, DJ Alesis, including the drums. Rain

Speaker A: for your ideas.

Speaker C: Echo Professional.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: So they basically are everyone. Yeah, at this stage. Yeah, there's quite a lot going on there. Um, so I mean, uh, this, you know, this kind of brings. It's. It's good that it's been saved in the long run. Lots of us are using native instrument stuff for. Lots of people are using contacts. You know, Contact is also massive in the stage. Stage production world. People triggering MIDI stuff through, uh, just instances of contact and things like that. So it's in that regard. It's good that there's a continuation going on there in that regard. But I mean, we are seeing a consistent monopolization of these things happen. I mean, where do you guys sit with it? Does it reassure you? Does it concern you? How do you feel about this whole situation?

Speaker C: Last. You want to go first,

Speaker B: of course.

Speaker C: Uh,

Speaker B: on the one hand. On the one hand, it seems like in music has a lot of money to burn. Like they can just go around and buy up companies. So that means that theoretically they would have money to put into these companies to improve their product lines, give us new updates, stuff like that. Theoretically. My whole worry is that being like, you know, kind of a venture capital company, if one of these companies isn't working well for them, then they just kind of strip it for parts and, you know, we lose whatever that company had to give us. Like, when's the last time you heard about anything from Newmark?

Speaker A: I mean. Yeah, uh, I mean, they are not in the music production world and DJ gear. They're still pretty prolific then.

Speaker C: Yeah, sure.

Speaker B: I haven't been in the DJ world for a long time.

Speaker C: The only reason, I mean, is, you know, friends who dj.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think that's. I think that's kind of where they're sticking with, um. I think the. I think that's an. They kind of combined with, you know, you saw lots of crossovers from like Hercules and stuff like that as well. So I mean, they're they're very much in that game. But I hear what you're saying. It's almost. If these companies are not profitable on their own regards, they will just kind of simmer, not, uh, be as dynamic or anything like that. They'll just kind of continue. Um, yeah. Is that. Is that the case for native instruments, though? They are such a. Such a behemoth in their own right that I wonder is if that's. If that. I'm not saying that what you're saying is not valid. I'm just wondering the extent to which we need to be concerned about these things. I mean, on the back end of this, just to. Just to bring in what Cresshead says, uh, just covering up Lars there. Sorry, bro. Um, you've got. Isotope is crap these days. Rubbish updates, which is fair. Isotope have become less dynamic since they were taken over by native instruments. So, I mean, is that a trend that you feel going to see come through?

Speaker B: I don't know about with native instruments. I know with Izotope, like, a big problem with theirs is like, they already had all their product lines out there already. Like, you have, uh, ozone for, like, your, like, quick mastering needs, and you have, um. What's the, um, Neutron. MHM

Speaker A: neutron for mixing. We've. We've just lost. We've just lost Lars there in that process. I'm sure he'll come back in just a second. Not sure quite where he was going with that for a second, but I'm sure I wouldn't want to take it away from him. Um, this idea that, um. There's lots of stuff going on. Ian, tell us about your, uh, thoughts as to this, where we're at.

Speaker C: I think from my point of view, it depends very much on what the bigger plan is, um, as far as whether or not. Because when. When acquisitions usually happen and in the first place, it's like, well, there's, uh. There's no change. Um, typically there's this. This period of consultation and. And, you know, the new owner getting to understand what it is they bought and all the details and so on, and being able to go through all the books. And so generally things carry on as they were for, you know, at least six months. Um, it's whether or not, you know, anything larger is planned around all these different brands. I mean, you'd be inclined to think not, given that they own a lot of brands already and that seems to be what they do. And, you know, they're not necessarily interested in shaping what those brands do or their direction beyond perhaps, um, enabling Them to benefit more from economies of scale and stuff like that. Being part of a larger organization or having a more stable financial backing. Um, I mean, it's a similar thing to when they acquired Moog, really. It's, it, it, it's, well, I think less so because they were more of a boutique thing. There were real people working in a real building that is, you know, with this, it's like, well, it's great that it's continuing. Um, that's the most important thing. They have a huge customer base. There's loads of people using these products. If they suddenly started to become obsolete from a software point of view because the company didn't exist any anymore to maintain it, that would be a terrible cry and shame and hugely frustrating for a lot of people. It would also be, you know, we don't need to lose competitors in that field. I don't think.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker C: I think everybody benefits from their existence whether you use the products or not, because, you know, it creates competition and ideas. Which makes you wonder a little bit when all of these brands are, some of them supposedly in competition are owned by the same brand. You think, uh, is there really space for two under the same overall banner? Uh, I, I, it's ironic that, you know, they own Behringer, don't they? They do, don't they? I'm trying to.

Speaker A: Well, I, I thought that was, I thought that was the case. Hang on, where is it? Uh, Adrift Audio corrected us. They are not. Hang on, where is it?

Speaker C: Um, I don't remember seeing it in

Speaker A: the last thing Cresshead said it. Music Tribe owned Behringer. Uh, not in Music. So thank you for that correction.

Speaker C: So I was thinking then that that would be odd because you, you know, you'd own M1 brand that is potentially making duplicates of another brand of yours, which would be a bit silly. So maybe they're choosing their portfolio a bit more carefully than that. And you know that the idea is that these, these brands continue as they are and they do what they do and, you know, there isn't any ulterior motive from the point of view of changing what they do, just enabling that entity to continue and to become more profitable, hopefully. But I mean, you know, time will tell. I think in the short term it's good that they still exist. Um, in the long term, you know, I think we'd need to know more about what their plans are.

Speaker A: I think that's fair. And there's a couple of chats about that, but I want to bring Lars in first because he was halfway through saying what he was saying, uh, concerning ideas. I think you're right. I think we're ready to be trepidatious. Um, but I'll, I'll continue, uh, after Lars and after the chats. Let's bring him back in. There you go, sir. Oh, hang on. I double clicked that. There we go.

Speaker B: Oh, okay, I'm back.

Speaker A: All right, welcome back.

Speaker B: I think I was saying something about Izotope. Um, right. So, like, they already kind of have all their, like, main product lines. So you got Ozone and Neutron and stuff for your mixing and mastering these, but not. And I feel like Izotope, they tried to just take that same formula with those two very successful products and apply it to like, just weird stuff. Like, hey, here's a reverb program. Program with, uh, intelligent reverb. Here's a intelligent saturation. It's like. But I have like 80 different saturation and reverb plugins on my computer. So really, like, what. What good are you. What do you. What's the point of this? Ozone feels still pretty useful because it's got all your mastering plugins in one plugin. So you just quickly put a chain together, whereas. Okay, Neoverb. You're gonna AI assist me on putting a reverb on this. Just stop, fellas, stop. And that's kind of. I feel like Native Instruments has kind of had the same problem because Machine came out. The first one was what, like 2010, 2009 or something like that? Um, and we're in 2026 now. And it's like we have machine plus and it's like, okay, that's cool. So it's basically an npc. Like, that's what we're looking at. And now the same company that owns MPC owns Machine. So what exactly are they planning here? I think.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Sun Warper put in the chat is just like, oh, the. In the Akai MPC machine duos. Oh, no.

Speaker A: He also mentioned this as well because he was. He was. Luckily he was at NAMM and he was saying that, uh, the Akai was showing native, uh, instrument plugin integration on the mpc. Uh, which, you know, a company files for bankruptcy, that's less planned. Right. You can't really plan for that potentially, you know, but if you are already pretty insolvency, showing your plugins working with other companies just suggests there's a bit of integration or pre planning integration going on. Um, which could attest for why this buyout happened so quickly. But the. It's cool. I Mean, it's. On the face of it, it's cool to be able to put, um, types of plugins or groupings or families of plugins and softwares together into different pieces of hardware. Not got a problem with that. Not got a problem with that at all. But it's not the same in my head at least. Maybe I'm wrong. Um, it's not the same as creating dynamism within the market. Right? It's basically taking the things that already exist and smushing them together and seeing what happens. It's not creating anything new, it's not being dynamic within the market. And I can't help but feel this might be a little bit of a bait and switch in that regard. It's, oh, great. Now your plugins can come and sit and they can, they can go with your MPC or they can go with this, or they can go with your machine, etc. But you know, does that show more than anything that we have reached a plateau about what music technology can do for us?

Speaker C: I don't think so. I don't think so. I think so. In the statements that they made, the two companies said, you know, that the initial, you get, the initial thing about business as usual was mentioned. So things are going to continue, you know, everybody calm down, which you'd expect to hear. But they did mention something later on about, um, shared vision and integration.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker C: they mentioned that they have obviously, as you just said, collaborated on, um, NKs, hardware integration and NPC editions. Um, if you can start, you know, if, if the software and the plugins and so on for these systems start becoming universal between all the hardware variants that are involved, I don't see how that can be a bad thing for people. And they would probably also make the argument that having all this, you know, additional talent, additional um, intellectual property that they acquired through this, that, that, that opens doors for developing new products that neither of them necessarily would have been able to develop otherwise. Which again, in theory, you know, sounds like a good thing. And it could well be. Um, it may just come down to the fact that, you know, are they designing something that you want? You know, sometimes manufacturers get it right and sometimes they get it wrong. And you know, it's whether the ideas are a good one or if they hit, you know, the sweet spot, you know, if it's a balance between various ideas, price points and technologies. But in theory, on paper, you know, they've got a bit more flexibility now, I guess. Time will tell. Really.

Speaker A: Time will tell. And I mean, you're right. The, the statement from um, native instruments themselves has been very much a message of thank you and business will continue as normal. And I suppose you need to do that if you want to keep your customer base reliant or reassured probably is a better phrase of saying that. Um, and yes, we're still in the early days and it's, you know, time will tell. Um, I just, I can't shake the notion of monopolization diminishing, um, dynamism within product development.

Speaker C: I kind of agree with you there. I don't find it reassuring when a large company, you know, ends up owning all the small companies. Um, when I think about innovation, and it might be blinking to me and by all means point out the failings of what I'm saying in the chat, but I tend to think of smaller companies that innovate. When I think of innovation I think of the, you know, the weird and wacky stuff like um, like Soma and uh, and the things they come out with which can be really odd. And, and I think of you know, the eurorack industry, the, these small possibly one person companies that uh, are developing all sorts of weird and wonderful things. And I think, you know, in my mind that's where the, where the creative edge is, you know, the bleeding edge of being creative and coming up with new tools and so on. And that the larger organizations are more about um, developing systems that are really flexible and cover a lot of things and uh, are relatively cheap as a result because it's a large company manufacturing them with a, you know, with an established supply chain and economies of scale and all of that stuff. So they could do an integrated system more cheaply than a small business can. But does that make them more innovative? It uh, depends what you're combining into these systems and so on really.

Speaker A: I get that. I uh, think the innovation is obviously a subjective term and depends what you mean by innovation. Yeah, I mean there's a couple of chats. Uh, hang on, Lars is back in the room. I just want to bring him in in just a second after some chats. Um, Cress has a really interesting point here. This idea that they basically just bought a customer base. Um, they've just essentially now people have to funnel their money to, in music as opposed to native instruments, um, smiling errors. I don't think this buyout stalls innovation in original since those are the startups and the smaller uh, companies. Um, essentially, um, which is fair. You know, we still, we do have small independent startups and we do have Kickstarters and we have that, you Know, which creates uh, dynamism in that, in that regard and which is nice, you know, which is always good. Um, it can't be shaken at the same time that. Smiling Errors continues. Native instruments are a big library of sounds and they are high quality sounds and they're multi sampled and the instruments in there are pretty, are pretty unique, you know, I mean massive. For example, pretty much spearheaded dubstep in, in that regard. And those kind of things can't be shaped.

Speaker C: Contact is theirs as well, isn't it?

Speaker A: Contact is theirs. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker C: The amount of instruments that are built based on Contact and Contact Player, which, which is the free version are just staggering. There are tons of them. So yeah, I mean it's um, there's a hell of a lot out there and, and in a world where software obsolescence and, and things becoming unusable anymore, you know, a time what Amazon, they're about to turn off a bunch of Kindles and people are getting upset about that because. Why? So, uh, it's not that old. Still works perfectly well. It's. Don't want to support the infrastructure anymore which, you know, we don't want to lose things just because, you know, the software development isn't there anymore. It's frustrating when you buy something, you invest in something especially you know, these systems are very good, they're professionally developed, they're not cheap. Yeah, you don't want to go, well I was getting a bit bored with that anyway. You know, it's just not going to cross anyone's mind. So you know, it uh, we really do need to have a more long term view. I think about things like this and we don't want anything disappearing in that way. I've lost, you know, I've mentioned it before, I've. I've lost bits of software that, you know, virtual instruments and so on in the past I've been really attached to and look great and it frustrates me, you know, because at the time it was a lot of money when I bought them. Everything I do is legit. There's no cracked versions of anything on my systems. It's expensive, right? Yeah. You know, everybody behaves like, you know, independent musicians, labels, etc have got, you know, the deepest pockets in the world which couldn't be further from the truth, you know, so things like this, you know, it's important. You know, it's a massive user base, it's a massive load of products. It needs to carry on as long as possible M. It's an institution at this stage.

Speaker B: Let me just tell you. The day that I boot up my machine and I go to start playing and it'd be like, this software is no longer supported.

Speaker A: Like, that'd be a dust.

Speaker B: I think I'm gonna lose it. I'm gonna lose it. I'll be like, no, no. I've been together for 15, 20 years now. Don't do this to me. Don't do this.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, you have to start thinking about, uh, you have to start thinking about business responsibility at that point. Right. Like you say, uh, Amazon are turning off a lot of Kindles because they basically don't want to support them anymore. But, you know, seller responsibility. Like you, Lars, have been invested in a machine since what, 2010? 2011, at least.

Speaker B: Yeah, 2010, yeah.

Speaker A: That's a big chunk of your music career. And there's. I know maybe, maybe I'm being a bit idealistic here, but there is a sense of continuation purely for the fact that, that we've talked about this before. Whether you are working in a DAW or if you've got an SP404 or whatever it is you've got after a time, after you've gone through your green season as a producer, you are already locked into something and a way of life, and it's a tool in your toolkit which you are using to be creative. And again, maybe I'm coming across as a little bit idealistic here, but you have to have at that point this idea that, okay, I've sold this person this thing and they have become accustomed to this thing. I can't just take it away from them. It would be fundamental.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, yeah. This is something that shapes my thinking when I'm looking at stuff, assessing new geared software and whether or not to buy things. So there are a lot of products out there that you could think are quite niche that do specific things that sound amazing. Right. And particularly where they're based on, um, sampling and multi sampling and lots of effects and lots of control. And it goes beyond just a set of samples or an instrument becomes something in its own right. You think, wow, that's cool. That's great, you know. Yeah. But I tend to never get stuff like that because I think if you make that, you then you're dependent on that thing and it surviving that. If that thing is a synthesizer, you are, uh, can probably find one of those, whatever happens. Do you know what I mean? Whereas if it's something that is really bespoke and niche and software based, if you make that part of your sound and it somehow isn't developed anymore, you know, that's that I, I've got this attitude in my head and other people may think differently that I need to understand how to make the sounds that I want with the things I have that are commonplace so that I'm not overly reliant on any one thing. And uh, what I make is, is more me because I'm um, you know, all right, it's just, it's nothing mental, it's just like an instrument and a plug in chain, a load of processing or whatever. But at least I understand the how and the why of like why it sounds the way it does, what it is about it that I like and if these things go missing, how I could recreate it with something else and that uh, I'm not dependent on something that you know is only there as long as somebody is selling it or maintaining it. And also to look at new things that. Where connectivity is part of the product, where it's reliant upon infrastructure in order to function normally. I mean this is the thing with Kindles, which is obviously a bit off topic for us, but it's a good example of it's reliant on an infrastructure that means you know, servers have to be switched on somewhere responding, you have to have Internet access, etc and so I always think about what's it going to be like when that's all gone, you know, does it have uh, usb, you know, micro sd, whatever. Is there a backup plan for when you know, it's. It's had its heyday but you still want to hang on to it because it's now, you know, it's gone from being the latest thing to some bit of classic gear as far as you're concerned and you want to hang on to it forever if you can. So these things are always in my head when I'm looking at new products, new software and I think you know, where does it fit compared to me? I appreciate other people might m. Think differently about it though maybe are you

Speaker A: valid work that's uh, you know, it's valid in its own way. I mean uh. It's an interesting question from Cress Head in the chat. This is what we love. We love these questions from the chat. Um, everything you're talking about in regards to um, everything you're talking about in regards to uh, how does it fit within Cress Head says here what's the latest, greatest thing that native instrument has made in the last two years? And I, I don't know where, I don't know what position is coming From. But I'm trying to think now, what is it that they do? Well,

Speaker B: as far as like a new product, like I haven't seen any and I'm a big fan of their stuff. But yeah, the last two years they really haven't had any new like groundbreaking products or anything. They just kind of, they've been updating, machine updating, uh, content intact. Um, yeah, they haven't really, they haven't really innovated anything new. They're just kind of maintaining what they have right now.

Speaker C: What's Native Access?

Speaker B: It's their new portal for downloading everything. Um, it's just its own program. It pushes your updates and you log in through there so you can download stuff. Yeah, they used to have like, you would get the uh, the offline authorizer and all that and now they just put it under one, one app. Kind of like Izotope did that and a few other companies do it like that too.

Speaker C: Yeah. Okay, so that's where absinthe went. Okay. Yeah, m used to like that. Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean back in the day, I mean, Absinthe was a pretty nice kind of synthesizer to go through. Um, well, I mean that, that does beg an interesting question in that regard, you know, if we're struggling to kind of ah, think about the dynamism of native instruments in that regard. Maybe, maybe in that regard it's a good thing, you know, Maybe it's a good thing.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's. It seems to be, it seems to have been more maintaining and library focused, you know, in recent times and than anything else. That's a fair point really.

Speaker A: Which, uh, you know, it's not necessarily a bad thing as long as they're going to continue to maintain it. Like my use of native instruments has always been fundamentally first and foremost has been client work. When I've got a remit coming from an external client, they need something with a specific sound by a specific deadline and they're paying X amount of money. You know, I don't necessarily want to spend my half of my time synthesizing a Juno sound, for example. Um, I want, I want something, a good preset that I can just whack it in, um, and go from there and be done, you know, because in that regard it's just client work, not necessarily using it for my own personal stuff. But you know, in that sense maintaining a library is not a, is not a bad shout and is not a bad kind of thing to do. Yeah, just I wonder if there's just more, you know, back like again, they come Back to, like, the early. The early VSTs are fundamental in some, uh, electronic and bass music, um, genres. And I just.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, I just. Bass sounds that really relied on that sampler.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: Early drum and bass stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah. And this is it. Right. It's fundamental in that regard. And I, you know, we. We know, and we've talked about this con. We've talked about this consistently. Monopolization is the killer of dynamism because they start running things for profit and they just keep things ticking over. Um, and really, it's these small independent companies that come through. It would just be a shame to see native instruments do that same thing, especially when it comes to, like. I'm a big fan of Isotope has dropped off the face of the earth in. In recent years since it was basically acquired by native instruments. But the idea of having, um, Neutron, or the idea of having them. I can't remember the name. The mastering plugin right now. I've got it on here, but I can't remember what it's called.

Speaker C: I haven't seen noise removal tool and so on that were really good as well.

Speaker A: Yes. And, like, that's. That is dynamic. Like, the idea of taking clipped audio and being able to. To treat it in a way where it's usable, that's, you know, that is just fantastic. You know, and I, uh. It would be a shame to remove that dynamism just because it goes further into. Into the monopoly.

Speaker C: M.

Speaker A: Yeah. I have to say, Ah, bring Lars in for one final thing before we move across the round robin. Any final thoughts on this, Native instruments? Lars?

Speaker B: Um, I hope I don't lose access to machine.

Speaker A: Okay. All right.

Speaker B: All I want out of this is like, I don't want to lose access to machine. I really like it.

Speaker A: Uh, that's fair. And I get it. This is. This is. This is existential for you at this point. And I get that your world. I mean, I've been doing.

Speaker B: I've been doing some other stuff without machine, you know, but it's like, man, that is. That's like, yeah, that's my box. That's my comfort box. You know, I go into that box, it's like, oh, everything's nice and warm and familiar here. Yay.

Speaker A: Have you heard the word, the good word of Ableton, my friend? That's what I'll say.

Speaker B: I don't want to compare you guys to Mormons. But

Speaker C: see, this. This is the thing, right? Because my opinions extend to Ableton as well. Right. Well, what happens if they hit the skids? What happens if they don't exist anymore, suddenly. Well, I still know how to sequence, you know, I still know how to, you know, use a door. I've still got plugins, I've still got instruments, you know, it won't stop me, you know, I don't like to think of anything being a weak link in my arsenal too much. Although, to be fair, if I'm honest, a few things probably would be.

Speaker A: Well, you know, I mean, let's. Let's not. Let's not toy with the idea of Ableton, uh, dying, shall we? I think.

Speaker B: Oh, let's knock on. Knock on some wood. Find. Find wood and knock on it, guys. All right.

Speaker A: Hosting a show. I can't. I can't have that as well.

Speaker B: Just suddenly, just chest tightens up.

Speaker A: I can't. I can't. It has to stay. It has to. Um, maybe not one thing from spiny errors, machined operating systems. Da door is wildly clumsy. I reckon, Lars, you'll find a brave new world if you walk outside again.

Speaker B: Smiling. Aries. That's my comfort box. I don't want to leave the box. I like the box. It's warm, it's fuzzy, and I like it.

Speaker C: Is it clunky?

Speaker B: Is it weird? Yeah.

Speaker C: But, yeah. He probably wouldn't like it as much if it wasn't.

Speaker B: This guy gets it.

Speaker C: It's blankie.

Speaker A: There's nothing wrong with the blanket. Nothing wrong with the blanket. Um, we have to see. Uh, I mean, we're talking about this, and we're talking about the collapse of everything, and we are toying with the idea of collapsing Ableton. Um, smiling errors makes it very. How would Mike do? But we'll see. Um, you have completely derailed my mental state, Eon. Thank you for that. Wow. Okay, I'll just go back to FL Studios. That's fine.

Speaker C: Uh.

Speaker B: Oh, wow. That is. Wow.

Speaker A: Let's go back to that. It's fine.

Speaker B: That takes me back to, like, oh, my gosh. So long ago, circa 2006, 2007.

Speaker A: Click, click, click, click. Beautiful. You know that sequencer man. Still love it. Anyway, if it works, it works. Exactly. Um, before we go into the round robin, I just wanted to, uh, spread some love to our patrons, many of whom are in the chat. Um, it's lovely to have you here. We couldn't do this. I'm sorry, Lars. It's just going to push you out of the way for a second if I do that. That's better. There we go. Uh, that's much better. Um, yeah. Thank you, everyone. To our patrons, this show is brought to you by our patrons. The fact that we are here. We re upped two years ago for another year. Two years ago, two weeks ago for another year. And we did that through our patronage. People's, Ah, patronage. So thank you ever so much for that. We continue to be here. Lars, you're here because, you know, as much as the fact that we love you, also because you're part of that inline crew of being a patron. What's it like being a patron?

Speaker B: Uh, it's pretty nice. Uh, I was kind of hoping for a sticker at some point though. I still haven't gotten my bumper sticker.

Speaker A: That's a good point. Um, I, yeah, I, I, yeah, that's a good point. I had a call with some warper before this show. Um, and uh, we fleshed out some ideas for the second half. He's away in June and I'm away in July and so. Oh yeah, I kind of like something. Well, I mean, I, well, I mean I'm here in June, obviously I keep the show running. Um, Elon Lake and I are discussing about doing some pre recorded content before I go away. Um, anyway, point is that when we come back, we want to focus on more on those kinds of things. So thank you. That comes to our patrons as well. So we love you. Thank you ever so much. And the fact that you kind of spend your time with us on a weekly basis just to kind of do this thing, uh, and chat nonsense about an incredibly niche area of existence. Beautiful. Um, if you wanted to become a patron yourself, uh, there's no pressure to, but you can scan that QR code or you can follow the link in the description below. Below, pledges start as a little as $2. Um, and yeah, that helps us keep the lights on. Um, yeah, yeah, it's a, it's a good way of doing it. Anyway, moving on to into existence, our round robin for this week. Uh, so you haven't done a round robin in a while. And this caught Eon's attention because he logged on two minutes before the show was about to start and was frantically making notes. So obviously it caught his attention. So that's what we're going to do now. Um, I wanted to bring the first

Speaker C: time I saw it. I've been mulling that over today. I need to make a note.

Speaker A: That's fine, that's fine. Um, or also, uh, you get to. Okay, I'm not quite sure we're going to do that swim areas, but maybe for 25. Maybe, maybe, maybe I won't Put that up on the screen. People can see what we're talking about there. Um, 25. I'd say 25. I think I can stretch that. Anyway, um, where are my notes on the docket? Yeah. So the round robin for this week. Um, what is something that you wish someone had told you earlier in the game about music production? If that. If that was the case, if you were start. If you were starting again, you wish someone had told you right at the beginning, what would it be? Um. Thing is, you're here, Lars, you giggled. Let's. Let's hear what you've got. Let's hear what you've got, bro.

Speaker B: Automation envelopes. For the first, like, year and a half of me making music, like, you know, I got a copy of FL Studio. I mean, I wasn't, uh. I didn't have the integrity that Eon Lake had, so I had a copy of FL Studio.

Speaker A: Wink, wink.

Speaker C: You just found.

Speaker B: I found it. It was fine. It was on the Internet. That means it's free, right? Um, so I'm sitting there just clicking around, trying to make music. And, you know, I spent like, a year, I got one of those stupid, cheap little MIDI keyboards, and for, like, a year, I'm just playing around, just making, like, you know, terrible little things. And one day I realized it's like, why does my music just sound, like, flat? Like nothing's actually happening? Even though stuff's happening, it's like. Like, oh, yeah, you have to modulate stuff. So now here I am all these years later, and I think I went a little too crazy with modulation sometimes. But that's okay.

Speaker A: That's fine. Nothing wrong with that. Yeah, there's no. Too much. You know, it's not that you're too much. There's just that, you know, there's a lot there. Okay. Modulation automation. I mean, do you feel like you. You've hit a healthy balance by this point?

Speaker B: Oh, no. I've gone the other direction now. I need to calm down. I mean, just reel it in. Maybe. Just maybe let stuff sit for a little second, you know?

Speaker A: I hear that. I hear that, Eon. What about you, man?

Speaker C: Um, that something's going to come along and spoil it all.

Speaker B: Oh, wait, what?

Speaker A: That's very. It's very docile. Do you want to elaborate on that a little bit?

Speaker C: That thing will be you. Yeah, it's the head games. Uh, see, the thing is, when you. When you start doing this, it's all fun, right? You think making music, that's fun? I've got, oh, synthesizer, drum machines. This is awesome. I love doing this. You do it, okay, and sooner or later you finish something and maybe you release something and maybe meet other people that do it. And. And I don't know what happens. I think I have theories about this, but I think it's. It's partly comparison. It's partly, uh, the fear of missing out that the music industry uses to sell you stuff and so on. But you start to think about these things so much and you just ruin it. Um, like overthinking. You just get into your head, is it good enough? You just end up, uh. You start to find that the biggest obstacle between you and just getting some music done is yourself. And you have all the. You end up with all these management strategies about how, you know, you make sure you're in the right headspace and the, you know, you're not trying to go from a busy day at work to write the best music ever in seconds or something like that. All the things that we've talked to, talked about in the past about, you know, keeping yourself healthy and having energy because, you know, you're talking about being creativity. You start getting into the whole creativity mindset and things like that. And it's just that, uh, that whole part of it was not something that I had anticipated. I think I just thought, yeah, it's just writing music, right? I mean, I've been recording it and mixing it for long enough because that's what I used to do as a job. It's just writing it as well. You know, how hard can it be? But it really does. Yeah, it's different. It's the head games. I. I really don't like the psychology of being somebody who makes music. I just like the making the music. I kind of like releasing music as well. But, yeah, they say that, um, that comparison is the thief of joy. Or there are a number of different quotations around that down through the years. And it's. It's true, you know, this. I constantly have to reset and remind myself why I do what I do, what it is I get out of it, and why I want to approach it that way. And the fact that I have to do that annoys me. You know, just. Just the fact that it's necessary, you know, uh, why can't it all just be sunshine and light, basically? You know, I find that irritating, the fact that it's something I love so much, but at the same time, the only thing that makes it crap is arguably me. So it's annoying.

Speaker B: So. So if I'm. If I can understand that you're saying you love making music, you love writing it, mixing and doing all that. You just don't like being a musician.

Speaker C: Yeah. Or just.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: How do you manage the psychology of it as well? You know, you could almost say it's not the making music that I don't like, but me.

Speaker A: Well, it's a mirror to your existence, my friend, myself.

Speaker B: You're a great musician in that respect. Like. Oh, yeah, no, we all kind of hate ourselves a little bit. Yes, it's part of it.

Speaker C: But, yeah, that's it. Ah, yeah, that's.

Speaker A: That's the one thing I think that's fair. I think. Just on that note, uh, I know exactly what you mean. I know exactly what you mean. It's when, you know, when you start making music, you're in your body and it's physical and you're moving and you're doing stuff, and then you start releasing and suddenly it becomes an internal game and it comes into the. It comes into the headspace. And, you know, that is a very normal thing, and that is an incredibly difficult thing to navigate, particularly when you're moving from your green phase into kind of like your more intermediate phase, so to speak. When you start putting things out there and you start going and playing the social media game, you start doing that kind of thing. Absolutely. And I feel you and I hear you, and I get it. Um, yeah. And I can understand totally. It's not the most fun part of doing what we're doing, especially when it is that heaviness which, you know, speaks to your musical journey as well. Right. Because they can come part and parcel. Right. Like, you can have those existentialisms. You can have that external comparison, and it can be really debilitating. It is also sometimes those things that, you know, it's those heavy. That's that heaviness inside your soul, which can become expressive in your art. Right. So you. You have to hold those two. You have to hold those two truths at once.

Speaker C: Nice silver lining you found there.

Speaker A: It's all about those silver linings, Right. My mate Abdu, he's all about the silver linings, and it's a great influence in that regard. Um, but, I mean, I just wanted to. On the back end of what you're saying, because I totally, totally get where you're coming from. And there are. The chat has gone off since we started the round.

Speaker C: Roman.

Speaker A: I will get to you, but I just wanted to skip a little bit. Um, because what Crescent said while you

Speaker C: were talking to chat.

Speaker A: Yeah, we will get to them. We will get to them. Um, but Cresshead had this really good one. If it ain't working, stop, do something different. And I think that.

Speaker C: Can you imagine that being that in control? It's just like, I'm calling it. I'll do this another time.

Speaker A: Just turn it off. Just turn off the computer. That's what you need to do. Just turn off the computer.

Speaker C: You can do it.

Speaker A: And this is just your Mac that's been on for two years straight, just wheezing like, please

Speaker B: let me die.

Speaker A: There's no joy. There's no joy in anything anymore. But I think. I think the key thing there is do. And I think that's a really interesting kind of, uh, solution to the issue. Because I'm. I'm the same as you. I get in my head. Yeah. I'm in my head most of the time. And getting into my. My body space or getting into my heart space is a difficult thing to do. And then I'm doing something incredibly vulnerable and putting myself out online, and that's a whole thing. Right. So I completely get you. Now, movement, just. Just moving is the best thing.

Speaker C: Yes. Because being in your head is. Is not good for being artistic and making music. You don't think what would be really good music. I know. Would be very good music. It doesn't work like that. That's not how inspiration strikes. Yeah. You need to be rather than thinking about doing something. So. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker A: It's. I mean, and it's not. It's easier said than done. Right. Or just move. It's because you have to be aware of being aware at that point in time. Right. And you have to go, okay, I'm thinking too much. I'm in my headspace. I need to do something about that. What do I do? And have be able to go to those steps, which is not easy. Which is why it's a great opportunity to bring it back. If you were starting and you were starting this all over again, if someone said to you, just listen to yourself, listen to your body and move, uh, more than you currently are. Um, yeah.

Speaker C: It needs to be fun.

Speaker A: It needs to be fun. If it ain't fun, what's the point?

Speaker C: Needs to be fun, then. Yeah. Why would you spend your time doing it otherwise?

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker C: There are a few more that I've got, but I think we should try and get some out the chat as well, because. Yeah. Couple of chestnuts in there.

Speaker A: Uh, chestnuts. Yeah. It's always good. Very, very Radio 4. So I'm just gonna go down. I'M just gonna go down from the top. Cress, uh, Head's got some beautiful ones here. So first and foremost, finish your songs.

Speaker B: Don't tell me what to do.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, finish is debatable, but I mean, not seeing things through to the end means you don't get to practice everything. You only ever enjoy in the beginning. Little bit. You know, it's. Yeah, absolutely. It's possibly one of the most useful things that I've learned.

Speaker A: I want to. I want to push back on it a little bit. Like, uh, you know, last year I did a lot of things where I just didn't hit record, right. And I just. My entire thing was just not recording, which is the sister finishing your songs. And I, I am a big proponent in finishing. Right. Well, what finishing is is a subjective notion of. Have I explored everything that I need to explore with this particular piece?

Speaker C: Yeah. Is it a complete version of whatever it is you were doing and you can define that for yourself up to a point as of what you. Maybe, maybe it doesn't have to be released, but maybe you want a full structure, you think? Uh, I went as far as I could with it. I completed the idea, I did a rough mix of it, but I don't think it's all that. And it's just going in the, you know, for later bin in case I want to rework it or have other ideas at another time. But I'm done with it for now. I saw it through. I didn't just bail when it got a bit difficult or I need to think of something else, you know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So that you're not taking shortcuts, basically and missing out on the. On important personal development in the process.

Speaker A: Thoughts? Thoughts on that? L. Um.

Speaker B: I think with like, you know, digital audio workstation, like, you know, computer based, like music environments, I think we, we have this tendency to just save everything. Right. Like you'll start doing something, you'll start playing around. It's like maybe you have like, you know, one little like synth sound here and some percussion going, and you're like, oh, uh, yeah, I'll save that and rework that. And a few years ago I actually got in the habit. Like, if I start doing that, it's like sometimes I just consciously decide not to save something. Right. Like I start playing around with something and it just kind of reminds me. It's like, you know, when you would just be sitting in your room and you have like a guitar in the room and you just kind of pick up a guitar and start strumming around, plucking around, doing whatever.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Not actually, like, making a song or trying to do anything like that. You're just playing around. And I think, like, it's a good practice to like, not be entirely just focused on finishing songs, but also, like, taking the m time. Just like, kind of play around with, like, something you have no intention of, like, keeping, saving, reworking. Just play around for, like, you know, 30 minutes to an hour and then let it go, and then you can come back and, like, try to actually write stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, what I like about that is it's not being deterministic about the output. It's not like this has to be a song and I have to save it and I have to finish it. It's kind of like, I'm gonna do this for a bit and what happens. I'll. If it, you know, if I save it, I'll save it, you know, if I don't, I don't, you know, and it's up to me because I'm the one in control here.

Speaker B: Exactly. Don't tell me what to do.

Speaker C: It's up to me. Right. But, yeah, I do believe it's. If. If it's a keeper that, you know, then, you know, you should see it through to the end just to make sure that you get practice in doing that. Put it in experience in doing that. But at the same time. Yeah. Whether, you know, session turns out to be a recording session or just like, um, just sound design or even just archiving stuff because it's not happening and ordering your samples or something. You know, it's all. I like to think of it as all as progress towards a goal, irrespective of how you spend in that time.

Speaker A: That makes sense. That makes sense. All right. More gold from Cress Head. Uh, we're gonna go. We're just gonna take these in order. Uh, this one.

Speaker B: Uh.

Speaker A: Success is built on a mountain of failure. Yeah.

Speaker C: And you have to let yourself write some. You really.

Speaker A: Yeah. In there somewhere.

Speaker C: Because I think sometimes you just got to get it out. Right. I mean, sometimes a good idea might be stuck. Stuck behind a bad idea to get the bad ideas out so you can get to the good ideas.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally.

Speaker B: When you got to go to the bathroom, right. You got to get that first bit out. It's a struggle, and then the rest just comes flowing out. You're good to go.

Speaker C: Yeah, I wasn't gonna go there, but, you know.

Speaker A: But yeah, it's valid. It's absolutely valid. I get it. I get it. I know what you're saying. But it is, it's the same. You know, we talked about these exercises before. It's like with the whiteboard, right on your, your whiteboard, that classic example of you can you build something up and then you have to delete the first five uh, tracks. Right? And you can only work with the sixth track onwards, right. It's the same, this is the same idea like. And again, in the same way that success you should do again I think in the same way that success is built on a subjective framing of, you know, completion. Um, failure is also one to recognize as well. I think we, we generally are ah, hard on ourselves when it comes to our creative expressions on the world. We're in our own worst enemies. But repeated quote unquote, failure makes us more accustomed to that notion of having failed at something and it becomes less of a problem. Right. If you, if you've got, if you've got a folder that deep of rubbish, uh, you know, you, that becomes one of your friends and it's like okay, well I've done this, I can't be any worse and just go from there. It's got anyways up.

Speaker C: I believe in the 8020 rule. I do think that you get to quality through quantity. That you just need to create a lot of ideas and um, just focus on the ones you like. You know, that's kind of uh, the fun of it really is just being able to keep making stuff and decide how attached you are to it. But what I would say when you, when you speak in, in terms of success or failure, do not be too quick to, you know, define things. That's why I think you should have a fully formed version of an idea before you sort of decide whether or not it's good or bad or anything. You know, while you're working on it, you shouldn't be thinking about it in those terms. You might at the end of it decide whether or not to hit the save button. But you know, don't rush the judgment. Certainly not while you're still trying to create.

Speaker A: Yeah, I get that. All right. Uh, okay. Uh, moving on to smiling areas. We've got a lot to get through so I'm going to keep rattling through. All right, there we go. Um, don't spend time learning, uh, don't spend time learning sidechain. Don't spend time learning mixing. Don't spend time buying expensive plugins. Learn the shortcuts for your software. Slash. Dawn.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker A: He continues the explanation here, I. E. The creative bit needs to not have blocks that takes up all your time. Plenty of time to do that after you've laid down your ideas.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Or certainly separate those things as well. I mean, if you're trying to be. Yeah. If you're trying to go through your ideas, don't do anything else other than capturing them.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, definitely. Ideation versus production. You know, those are two different settings. I wouldn't necessarily go it straight in for side chaining. And I do like the idea of learning your hotkeys. I think that's an interesting. That is it?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Learning the shortcuts. Yeah. Very underrated advice.

Speaker A: It is.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Learning shortcuts, knowing your way around and getting, being able to do things quickly is. Yes. As, as you say. I mean, it's kind of hinting at the fact that it speeds up your ability to be out of chasing after ideas and not getting mired in anything. And yeah, knowing your way around is very helpful.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: More helpful than any kind of pseudo technical thing.

Speaker A: It's good to know because you can

Speaker C: have a good idea, a good musical idea. Well recorded, badly mixed, it's going to sound much better than a bad musical idea. Mixed really well, it's still going to sound dull and uninteresting, isn't it?

Speaker B: Polishing a turd. Polishing a turd.

Speaker A: You're big on those analogies today and that's cool. I like it. I like it. Well, what are your, what are your thoughts on this, Luz?

Speaker B: First of all, it's because I have like that middle, middle school sense of humor still where she's like, poop.

Speaker A: Um,

Speaker B: uh, no, I, I love the idea of like learning your like hotkeys and your shortcuts and stuff. Because how much time do you actually spend like in a doll, like just clicking around, click here, click there, click what? Yeah, and then sometimes you'll have a situation where it's like you got to start recording something like, so it helps to know the shortcut. So I like that advice. Now, him telling me not to learn how to mix, that's kind of weird. But hey, you. Do you, um, I think I still don't know how to sidechain, honestly.

Speaker A: Well, I think it's good. I hear you. And again, again, sidechaining, I mean, sidechain is a classic example.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's one of those kind of first, uh, things you learn about when you're learning about how to compress and what it does to sound and that kind of thing. But also what sidechain is for you is completely different to what sidechain is for, uh, Skrillex, for example. Right. And I think it's good to understand these fundamental tools of mixing and producing, if you want to. I mean. Yes. But also because you can then make it. Uh, I, uh. For a long time, when I first learned how to sidechain, I was like, oh, I must sidechain. I have to. Right, because that's what you do. Right. But I don't have to. Firstly, I can do what I want. You can't tell me what to do. But second. Right.

Speaker B: Second.

Speaker A: Secondly, uh, it's also sometimes, sometimes you don't need it if you are doing something. If you are doing something, you know, a bit more retro and a bit more kind of gritty, you don't necessarily need to have your kit coming through and your bass to be wobbly.

Speaker C: Yeah, but.

Speaker A: But knowing that discernment is also my thing now. I. I love side chaining my pads to my keys, for example, in the mid range, because it does the same bloody thing, but it just allows my keys to pop through a little bit more. Right, yeah. Uh, no, no, no. These basics don't live by them, but because knowing them creates discernment in what you want to get out of your mix.

Speaker C: Right, yeah. It's something that you can learn later anyway. And I think, uh, Smiling Hours is updated. It. It's kind of. You can later for that stuff. Knowing your way around the door and all the shortcuts will get you further quicker than getting into the detail like that straight away. But having said that, once you've learned all of those things, you can move on to this. And then, you know, once you know how side chaining works and why you might want to do it, it teaches you a little bit about creating space in mixes anyway. I mean, the. The most common use of ducking the bass around the kick just so that you. You get an. You can get an extra 3 decibels out of your mix just by doing that. You know, if you're trying to make something loud and a wall of sound, you can do that. You may choose not to, but you've already learned that such about creating space for something and that that's one of multiple techniques there are to create space for things. And then it's not really important what you're doing and whether you know the techniques. It's about getting into the mindset of like, things occupying their own space and fitting together and stuff like that. And thinking about your music and your mix is, in those terms is perhaps more useful than the actual technique itself. Just that way of conceptualizing, mixing and recording. But that's, you know, again, like it says that, uh, getting bogged down in that early on is not something you want to do. It's really going to take the wind out your sails because it's going to

Speaker A: make you hate it. Yeah.

Speaker C: There's loads of it to learn and it, and it's, it's more interesting when you know the basics and you're already doing and you can think, ah, ah, that is going to make this better. Brilliant. Yeah. You know, rather than the other way around.

Speaker A: Uh, the Czechs have a saying, Croc Z. And it's. It's essentially step by step. But I just love the way the Czech say, you know, um, but it is, it's like again, and I, I do in that similar vein it's been pertinent, uh, perpetrated by social media, all these influences, etc. Etc. Etc. About, you know, unlocking the secret to a great drama bass track and all that stuff, you know, and then the idea of. Yeah, thank you. Great.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, fantastic. That's why we have.

Speaker B: Advertising ruins everything. It does exactly everything. And it's ruining this, it's ruining music.

Speaker A: It is. And it's just. It creates this idea that you have to know everything all at once. When you don't, it's a journey. Right. When I first started Curtis, I didn't know the first thing about mixing. I definitely didn't know about sidechain. If you go and listen to Feelamath, my first ever lp, it's not mastered. I didn't know mastering was a thing, you know. And.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, I don't know the first thing about music. But now I've just completed the second thing.

Speaker A: But that's my point. Like, is it?

Speaker C: No, I mean, just do some, write some good music is probably the best thing you can do.

Speaker A: If you've got, if you've got a two channel interface and a laptop, just sit down and do it and don't worry. Yeah, um, yeah, it's.

Speaker C: Yeah, learn by doing as well as, you know, back it up with study later.

Speaker A: But yes, absolutely, we have got. Or just listen to a podcast on a Wednesday night about, uh, what you should and shouldn't do and that'll give you everything you need.

Speaker C: Yeah, don't do that. That's disgusting.

Speaker A: More gems from Cress Head. Keep it simple. Don't get lost in optionitis.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, restrictions are good for creativity. Everyone agrees with that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I know. I've talked to people who have, like, they made A song, they're like, oh, yeah. This, like, has, like, 10 different bass lines. And I compress them all together and sidechain them to one another and I'm like, I. But when. Just a regular baseline work, I feel like, like when I make something, a lot of the times it's, I think the most tracks I've ever had on a single, like, song is like, seven or eight. So when people tell me that, like, oh, no, I have, like, 30, 40, 50 tracks here is like, why, though? Why?

Speaker C: Oh, I'll tell you. I'll tell you. Um, it's because I'm a lazy mixer. So what I'm gonna do is set a level and just leave it there. And if there's a sound that's, like, might be a bit louder, so I'll put it on another channel and then I can set that one just a little bit below it and I don't have to do anything, which is ridiculous, really.

Speaker B: Oh, man.

Speaker C: Not a good answer.

Speaker B: Back to, uh, automation. Envelope automation.

Speaker C: Oh, I could just put it on another channel. Let it have its own volume.

Speaker B: Whatever, man. Whatever.

Speaker A: After a while, dragging that red line around does get a bit lame, you know? Um, I get that. Uh, okay. Cress head again. Uh, one of your best tools, One of your best tools available when producing is mute and delete. Try removing stuff rather than just adding stuff.

Speaker C: Yes, okay. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yes and no. I want to see. I mean, get it. Yeah. It's good to not get lost in your mix.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, I, I, I am a maximalist, though, and I think I'm a Maximus. I love that notion. You know, my tracks are most like seven or eight minutes. That notion of just keep on expanding and keep on expanding.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it doesn't mean that you can't be a maximalist mad bastard. You can still do that, but some people think of it as, like, carving and that the first thing you do is you create the block, which is a bit odd, really. Usually the blocks there to start with, and then you cut bits out of it until it looks like something, you know. So you're gradually shaping and removing stuff until the form is revealed. So that's true.

Speaker A: Okay, I get that.

Speaker C: Uh, so you might start with everything going on 11 and then go, uh, right. How might we get to this massive wall of sound? Should I just have it switch on at the beginning?

Speaker B: M. Yeah, just whilst. Filter it in.

Speaker C: I mean, the future is gone and then switch off again.

Speaker A: Uh-huh, uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Speaker B: But, yeah, I mean, you know, yeah,

Speaker C: half Bits out, remove bits. Uh, you know, not all the time at some. I like to think of it sometimes as shaping a little bit. It kind of, um, sits with the whole subtractive synthesis thing of like starting, uh, with a big blaring wave and like filtering it and enveloping it and cutting it down, making it ridiculed. And I kind of like that. Yeah. Conceptually in my head. So I think of it that way sometimes.

Speaker B: Yeah, I use this technique, but I don't like. I don't usually do it with like actual like tracks, like, you know, your bass and like your synth and stuff. A lot of times I do is if I'm playing. Because whenever I'm, um, playing keyboard or whatever, I have this tendency to like, just try and hit too many notes all the time. Right. For whatever reason, I just want to hit a lot of notes over and over again. So I'll like lay down whatever I have and then I go back through and I just kind of like individually, like just. Nope, let's get rid of that note. That one, that one. And it's like kind of. It's kind of the same concept except instead of like, you know, just the whole track, it's just your melody. Like, oh, look at all these sounds. Okay, let's just pare that down to like just a few there. Okay, there we go.

Speaker C: Yeah. I think having a good editing approach is everything because it's all about just, you know, get lots of ideas. Lots of it. Lots of it. And then it's like, all right, I didn't want to miss everything, anything. So I've captured everything. But right, 80 of this is going in the bin. How do I go about that? You know, and having a good methodology for doing that. And I generally tend to delete the things I don't like.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: Or I don't think about it too much about like, dislike. But there are some things, right, I'll delete that. Delete the like and start putting the things I like better together. And something kind of comes out of it.

Speaker A: Usually by doing that, there's a discernment there as well. Because not all your ideas are good. Right. And I say you plural, not you specifically Howard.

Speaker B: No, you specifically you.

Speaker A: But having this. It's good to take things out around because, you know, the amount of times that, I mean, we've. It's that old cliche, right? Like you think you've got a banging mix and then you come back to it in the light of day and it's like, you know, clinky plunk. Yeah, like, we've all been there.

Speaker C: What the hell is this?

Speaker A: Yeah, okay, well, that's out of tune. You know, like, you know, it's.

Speaker C: Yeah,

Speaker A: So we've all been there. So, like, I mean, having that discernment is good. Which is why, again, Chris Head M is the sage of today. Think, um, of writing as a song, like a painting. Get all the basics done so it looks like something before you dive into the details. But obviously at the same time with that, create. You don't have to necessarily think of it as a linear approach in that regard. Right. In the name of taking tracks in and out, you can work on a little bit of. You work a bit of sky down there, work on a bit of a mountain over there, that kind of thing. Um, you know, work on the kind of your. Your overall plan. And then the individual tracks is. The detail, so to speak, become more apparent and you can make a better decision about what works and what doesn't. What was fleeting and what was manacle in the moment.

Speaker C: Yeah. Some ideas you can go back to and work on and extend a bit and so on. But, yeah, I find, like, I think it's right. I find some. Getting some sort of formed version of it sort of done to start with is helpful. Then you can sort of. You might add bits, you might take bits away, you might rework parts of it, but it gradually comes into focus as you do that, I think. And, yeah, I need a first pass. Something that feels kind of whole and has everything in it that can be worked on.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Lars.

Speaker B: Um, I don't know, I'm. Because he said like a painting and all I can think about is just Bob Ross and his happy little birch trees.

Speaker A: That's fine. It's good to know where you're at, bro. It's good to know.

Speaker C: Yeah,

Speaker A: I love it. Yeah. I mean, I. I treat it like. I treat it like sculpting a similar vein. Like, if I've got a song, I've got a track and, um, I want to work on a particular track, but maybe I might just work on the 16 bar thickening agent. Right. Or I might work on. I might work on the Drop, or I might work on the Outro or whatever and just, you know, I don't have to necessarily write it whole way. Like you were saying, like, you start with everything and you kind of work down to nothing in that regard. Um, it's a great way of doing it. Um, half God, half beast, different, ah, vibe, but carry a notebook everywhere you go.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. I know when you're gonna have your best ideas. Whenever it's inconvenient, it's the answer. Yeah, I use my phone for that just because I always have it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So, yeah, but that notes after.

Speaker A: Hey, you know, Ableton note. Perfect. You know?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: I mean, Ableton guys again.

Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, you could you. I doubt there's a phone made that doesn't have a notebook app on it, but, um, if there is, you should make it an open for that phone. Um, yeah, that's the thing. Inspiration strikes when you're out of the studio. Always. Right. I mean, sometimes in the studio, but you need to get all those ideas down, and you want to be able to run through your ideas when you have time.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker C: Organization's everything.

Speaker A: Organization is everything. And on the notion of being organized, Asep Stripe has been in the chat for at least 11 minutes at this point, because we're going throughout all the chats. Uh, lovely to see it. Uh, practicing drums now. Uh, straight. That's pretty cool.

Speaker C: Yes. Wholeheartedly approved. This is the proper way to spend your time. Obviously.

Speaker A: Two months into practicing drums regularly, that's what you need. Um, maybe I need to buy a drum kit and get with the crowd. Um, at least.

Speaker C: Yeah, Octopad or something. Something. What I'm gonna do, Eon, is imagine not having drums.

Speaker A: How. How sad would that be? I'm gonna. I'm gonna put Ian back. He is frozen.

Speaker B: He is frozen. Yep. He's very frozen.

Speaker C: Horrible.

Speaker B: I'm so sorry, man.

Speaker C: What have I done to deserve that?

Speaker A: I know. I have no idea. Um, Yeah, I, uh, mean, if you want to try plugging the camera back in or switching it, you're welcome to, uh.

Speaker B: Did you try turning it off and turning it back on?

Speaker C: There you go. I fixed it.

Speaker A: It's not new anymore. Somehow the void, or matter is an improvement on what was. Uh, absolutely.

Speaker C: Um, it's my best side. Do you like it?

Speaker A: I like it.

Speaker B: It's beautiful. Thank you.

Speaker A: Uh, just to validate what I was, uh, saying, uh, smiley's. I've had 100 track mix before, and I might. Yeah. 104. And I live by it and I stand by it. 104.

Speaker B: I'm so confused and overwhelmed. Like, I would look at it, anxiety would just suddenly shoot through the roof. I'd be like, I. I gotta get out of here. I have to run now back to the box.

Speaker A: I mean, I get it. Absolutely. Uh, I get that. I think, you know, when I finished that, I think it was day 2554. I think that was. I think that's what it was. It was either that or another one, another collaboration I did. And I felt like. I felt pretty good doing it. Because you're taming that beast, right? It's completely overwhelming and it's ridiculous, but, you know, it works in the end. Um.

Speaker B: That's bonkers, man. It's bonkers.

Speaker A: I know, I know, I know.

Speaker B: But get some m. Help.

Speaker A: What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? If the art. If the art wants it, you gotta just go for it, you know? You know, it's. It's the channel of the universe going through my physical manifestation. I've got nothing to do with it. You know what I mean? Um, it's true.

Speaker B: Wow. Flow state. Just flow state on 104 tracks. Got it.

Speaker C: Your job is to turn up and then get out of the way. Let it happen.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker C: Uh, none of your business after then.

Speaker B: Don't tell me what to do.

Speaker A: I just. I just drink tea and smoke weed. That's all I do. That's where we're at. That's where we're at. Um, and again, just more validation for smile areas because I think I feel we need it. Notepads are great. My teenage poetry still lives inside them. Perfect. I'm. Yeah, I mean, just come back to that idea. That's a very cool, uh, non technological. I think that we miss. I think a lot of the time just carry your ideas around with you, you know, either on a phone notepad or physically. Um, or just have a pen or carve it into your. Carve it into your, you know,

Speaker C: Carve it into the bodies of your victims for a sec.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Yeah, don't do that.

Speaker C: Yeah. Uh, find what works for you and use it.

Speaker A: Exactly. Also, uh, half God, half beast. Do you. And that, that. It's really cool. Um, I wanted to. I wanted to kind of finish.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Do you like, especially know who you is?

Speaker C: You know, if you've met you and you know who you is from a musical point of view? Yes, absolutely do that.

Speaker A: And you also only get to. Do you buy. Well, you only get to figuring out who you are and what your sound is by doing what feels good for you. Right. Like, especially when we start putting music out and we are on the social medias playing the content creation game and externalizing our, uh, likes and our, you know, our purchases and our streams through what other people are doing. You lose a sense growth, man. You know?

Speaker B: Gross. No, I said gross.

Speaker A: Oh, gross.

Speaker B: Gross.

Speaker A: Well, exactly right. But we all go through that phase where we all have gone through a phase, however brief or however reluctantly, of, you know, externalizing and, you know, comparing ourselves again to come back to the comparison game, right? And you know, you're gonna go, at some point, you're gonna go and try making some music because. Because you heard it from something else and you think it's going to do on the playlist or whatever, you know, that kind of thing. And it just doesn't. It just doesn't work. But I also wonder if you won't get to that stage if you don't go through that process at the same time. But it's a really cool idea just to sit and feel and do what feels good for you. If. Even if it's. Even if you're not getting that extra 3 decibels, uh, of space in your mix because you're not side chaining correctly, that's fine, you know, that's fine. There's no worries about that at all. We've just lost Lars. But that's a good. That's not a good thing. But we're coming towards the end of the show. That's not a good thing, but it's good timing is what I'm saying. Um, so that's where we're at. You might come back before the end of the show. So. Yes, that's been a hell of a round robin. I think that was a. I think that was the first time in a while we've done like a 45 minute round robin.

Speaker B: Um,

Speaker A: keeps going. Do you have any good advice?

Speaker C: So, yeah, read the. Read the chat.

Speaker A: Read the chat.

Speaker C: Pearls of wisdom in there.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker C: I'm not seeing anything I disagree with.

Speaker A: No, it's wonderful when these Community episodes come together and we just put down the docket. Right. We just put down what we've got in our notes and we can just vibe with what everyone's coming together. Um, those are the best of episodes in that regards.

Speaker C: Um, that's something else I was gonna say wasn't there.

Speaker A: He's coming straight in with it. And there's more. You had something about eggs in baskets. He did.

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, yeah. It was, it was. It was just quickly about how you can, um. We talk about making it fun a lot. And it's important because I found recently that if you use music as your only outlet, if you find life to be difficult and not always positive, um, experience and you rely on music for. To feel all your happiness. If you put too much on your music pressure and the ability to do your music and you're reliant on that to give your life meaning and happiness. You're going to break music for yourself as well is kind of what I was thinking. And I've discovered this and I was, uh, I'm a big fan of rival consoles. I was listening to an interview with him the other day and he went through a period where he felt that he was burnt out and wasn't able to rely on music and was terrified by the prospect. And. Yeah, although it might mean everything to you, try not to make it your everything in the sense of you need to get your validation and your appetite for living from more than one place and music is not going to save you if everything is a problem otherwise. That's all I was going to say. So, yes, uh, you want it to remain light hearted for that reason, and you want to make sure that there's other stuff in your life because you need that nourishment from other things to inform your music and to make it good.

Speaker A: Anyway, uh, I think it's absolutely fair, you know, like, it, it's got to be, it's got to be part of a rich and vibrant existence. Like, you know, the times when I'm working in the theater and it's got nothing to do with making music at home and I'm just cabling or I'm just, you know, dealing with, I, uh, don't know, paperwork or back office stuff. You know, that experience and those emotions that come in those moments. Those emotions that come in those moments. Yeah. Feed back into what you're doing. And if you, like you say, if you're putting all your sense of peace and sense of joy in creating music, it's going to stop being a place of peace and creativity pretty damn quick.

Speaker B: Oh.

Speaker A: What are your thoughts, Lars? I mean, we've got, we're back to. Lars is here. I think Spine Anger has got a really good point. Lars, uh, is playing a game broadcast from every room in the house. I think that's. That's where we're at.

Speaker C: And a few not in the house.

Speaker A: If you're not in the house as well. We are outside. Uh, it's cool. Uh, it's a vibrant place. Lars, can you hear us, bro?

Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.

Speaker A: Oh. Oh, dear.

Speaker C: Yeah,

Speaker B: okay.

Speaker A: That is. We've got two losses now.

Speaker B: Okay. I don't know what happened there. My, uh, my iPad was just about to die, so I just switched to the phone and I thought I was more technically adept than this, but apparently I am not. I'm just a Guy here on an electronic music show showing off his technological incompetence.

Speaker C: That's another T shirt right there. I thought I was more technically adept than this. I mean, that's for the front when you're on stage, surely.

Speaker A: Uh, I like that.

Speaker B: That's perfect.

Speaker A: I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a note of that, I think, on my notepad. Uh, of all places.

Speaker C: Um, your analog notepad. I'd probably shorten it to technically inept. I think that would do it technically. And then you can have it nice and large.

Speaker A: Huh. What, uh, is this? This is episode 207, isn't it? Yeah. So I'll make a note of that. Um, that's good. We haven't had one of those in a while. Um, so that's what we need. That's what we need. I've made a note of that and I'll get around to it. So, yeah, that brings us to the end on that bombshell. Ah, that brings us to the end of, uh, the. This week's episode. Um, it is, uh, half past the second hour, so, yeah, we're gonna call it there. Um, but thank you ever so much for still being here and thank you ever from the bottom of my heart. Thank you ever so much for being part of the chat. You. You have made. You guys in the chat live, have made this episode this week. You know, um, we planted some seeds, but you guys have just run with it. Um, and really appreciate that because it's that community drive. We're just three people with a microphone and a sometimes dodgy Internet connection. Um, but, yeah, thank you. Uh, and, but it's you guys that, you know, make this come alive and it's what keeps this going. So thank you for doing that. Thank you for being here. It could be anywhere in the world. Um, and you're here. That means a lot. Um, Ian, any last, uh, words before we go today?

Speaker C: No, just thank you to everybody in the chat. Keep it fun.

Speaker A: Keep it fun. Um, put that on a T shirt.

Speaker B: Keep it fine.

Speaker A: Keep it fun. What are your. What are your last words? Not ever. But just for this episode.

Speaker B: You gotta work on your phrasing, bro. Uh, I want to know that astute observers will see that they've actually seen me in three different locations during this video.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: That's.

Speaker A: That's something we could do. Can we make it four next week? Let's see. Let's find out.

Speaker B: I'll find one more spot. I don't think I want y' all to see my bedroom. So

Speaker A: more on that next time. Um, we'll be there. Have a great week. Keep making music. Uh, we'll be there next, uh, week, same time, same place. Not sure what we're going to discuss just yet. Um, we'll have to figure it out. Um, until that point, uh, head down, uh, to the discord. The links are fresh in the description and in this QR code. If you want to be part of the discord. Um, come down, take, come down, see what's up. We like to have these conversations, uh, continuously. Find out what we're up to. Um, you know, tell us what you're

Speaker C: up to and they're telling us what you're up to channel.

Speaker A: Yeah, we have a brand new what you're up to channel and that was requested by the. It's fun. Um, it's good to see where everyone's at and in a non pressured safe space. So come on down and take a look. We'll be back next week, um, normal time. Until then, take it easy. Thank you ever so much.