Helen Neal (HN Communications) - Greenwash, Corporate Burnout, Going All In

Speaker A: Welcome to A Little Bit Radical, a, ah, business podcast from Standing on Giants. I'm Rob, your host. Join me as I meet people and organizations who are doing things differently, challenging the status quo and yes, might just be a little bit radical. What does it take to communicate climate action with honesty without falling into the greenwash trap? Today's guest is Helen Neal, co founder of HN Communications, a, uh, sustainability communications agency. Working with some of the world's biggest brands and NGOs. She's on a mission to cut the fluff from climate storytelling, build meaningful corporate NGO partnerships and challenge the outdated rules of work while raising a family and running a remote team. Helen, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker B: Hello Rob. Thank you very much for having me.

Speaker A: You're welcome Helen. If you are a little bit radical and you're on our podcast, so we know that you are what in your early life set you up for that?

Speaker B: I think I was always a little bit weird as a child and I think I was a bit of a loner. I was an only child, am still an only child and I think I spent a lot of time on my own. Yeah. Even though I'm quite chatty person, I think I'm quite introverted. I, and I guess growing up for me, not having any siblings and having a relatively small family for me, I always felt as though I had pretty much a blank sheet of paper. There wasn't really anything to define me. And um, I found this really empowering. I think from a quite a young age I decided, well, I'll define me, I am who I am and I want to kind uh, of define that path for me. So I think I've always been quite clear about who I am and I always talk to my own kids now. I still feel very much that seven year old girl inside. And I think when you feel your childhood self still, even at uh, you know, your mid-40s, I think that's a real good sense of kind of trying to kind of live to the core of who you are. Because we can all get distracted by life, can't we? So I think I've always tried to maintain that really. And I think that's seven year old girl is still quite radical in a way.

Speaker A: I love that. I think that's great. Keeping the inner child alive. When we first spoke, Helen, you revealed to me a very interesting fact to me, which is that you're from Northamptonshire. I am, uh, where also I was born.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: And before moving to Leicestershire and I said to you, do you think there's something about being from The Midlands that gives you this blank page or adds to this blank page of identity, because, you know, we're not really Northerners, we're not really Southerners. We're somewhere in the middle. No one calls you a midland, uh, or a Midlander.

Speaker B: Uh.

Speaker A: What do you think about that?

Speaker B: I think that is so true. I think there is something to be said for anybody who comes from a relatively unremarkable background, an unremarkable place in the world, which, let's be honest, you know, I love Northamptonshire and I'm still here, even though I said I was going to leave. But I think there's something to be said from being in a place where there really isn't a huge amount going on. It's not particularly exciting. You kind of have to create that excitement, and that's something special yourself. So, you know, obviously you moved on to greater heights. That was Leicestershire, so we will forgive you for that. But I still think that, you know, that kind of leafy, quiet Northamptonshire, and I am still here, although I traveled a lot, there's something to be said for that kind of quiet space where you can kind of create. Be that big fish, I suppose.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think so. I mean, Mum and Dad still listen to this podcast. Thank you, Mum and Dad. You know, we moved to basically the exact same version of the village in Leicestershire as we did in Northamptonshire, just outside the town. But, yeah, so I think it was much of a muchness in terms of identity.

Speaker B: But everyone growing up, for us, you know, we all wanted to get out. I say we. You know, when we were in our teens and stuff, we were adamant we were leaving and we never coming back. And actually, the number of us that ended up coming back to this region 10, 20 years later is really high. And I'm sure there'd be some kind of social study on it to say, I think there's something about this kind of just a very calm, unremarkable place. Sometimes we all need that, rather than it just always being this kind of big, bright and brash place, really. So, yeah, I think it's a good thing.

Speaker A: It can be quite centering, can't it?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, uh, as an adult, do you think you've become more radical or less radical? And what's been behind that?

Speaker B: I think I was very radical when I was a teenager, I think then when I got to the real world in quotes, I guess I went really conservative. I wanted to be serious. I wanted to have my life in order. You know, this thing about, you know, being in your 20s and you kind of, you wanting that job and you want to buy your house and all of these things that the world tells you you should have in order. And I guess I fell into that a little bit for a while. So I wanted that corporate job. That for me was the kind of defining success, really. I'd not come from that background. My parents didn't work in those types of environments. So for me, working a big shiny building in London meant I'd made it. And I did work from great places. I started out working in the House of Commons, and then I worked for Virgin Atlantic and then latterly Nissan, and, um, I suppose I did kind of live that life for a while. But I realized, I think when I got to my sort of early 30s, that it was all a bit hollow, really. By that point, I sort of probably found that radicalization again and thought, I don't want to do this. This isn't me. And I don't think I'm alone in that journey. I think a lot of young people, uh, find that. I think what's good about this upcoming generation, though, is I think there are a lot more people willing to say, no, I'm not going to do that. And I think there are many more ways of kind of technology and ways of working now that are open to people to say that they don't have to do that anymore. It was harder to do that back then, but now there's so much more opportunity, uh, to not necessarily run the same path as everyone else.

Speaker A: Yeah, I constantly see this Gen Z debate, you know, out there in the world, and you've got more senior executives, most of whom, I think, started off on the same path as you and then stayed there, you know, didn't leave to start their own thing. Having a real problem with younger people, and they say things like they're not motivated and, you know, and all this kind of stuff. But I think maybe there's a real point that you're raising, which is maybe they've just cottoned on to what's worth their time.

Speaker B: Yeah. And they're at an age where it's not too late to jump ship. I think it becomes much harder, particularly if you're in your 50s and you've been in the corporate world for a very long time. It becomes a very scary proposition to walk away from all of that at that point and start something new. However, I'm a big believer in going for that despite the risk. If you believe in yourself enough that you can do it. And, um, I think it is possible, but it's not for everyone. And you know, running a business of whatever size is not for the faint hearted. I think you need a strong stomach and I would be lying to you if I said that there are times when for me running my own business, I don't kind of question what on earth I'm doing and why I've put myself through this pain.

Speaker A: Well, that's teed it up perfectly. So watch this space to hear about the pain everyone. Start with what drove you to found your business? Well, you've kind of told us about how you started to become disenfranchised with the corporate world, but how did you then come to start your, your own business? And then in this specific area of sustainability communications, quite a specialism in all honesty.

Speaker B: It was a complete unintentional accident, however you want to call it. I had no desire to start a business and it really came out of a position of disaster really. I worked um, for a big corporate. I had two children in close succession. It was I guess pre Covid as well. So maybe the flexibility wasn't there, I don't know. But I think my story is not an unusual one at all. But going back to your job after having children can be quite challenging at the best of times. But I found at the time I went back and it wasn't my job anymore. My job had changed quite significantly. In fact, I'd moved completely different departments and you know, I'd spent 15 years in my career building up my experience within the political world and government relations and all that skill set and I was really passionate about it. And I think to feel that that had all been taken away from me, plus I think all the natural challenges that come with going back after having kids really hit me and I really struggled with it going back and I gave it six months and then I handed in my notice and I handed it in and I had no idea what I was going to do. And coming from my Northamptonshire background where, you know, you don't give up and you keep going and there's absolutely, uh, no way that you should not be having a job that's just not acceptable. And so it was a big leap of faith, but I think it was driven in all honesty from, from a really unhappy situation. So I was pushed, I felt, to leave, I felt I needed to leave in order to maintain my sanity. So I did, I left. But I think, and this is the beauty of when you're good at what you do and when you build up good networks and you have great people around you several of them said, look, would you come back and consult for us? So I think fairly quickly I started to do some consulting, and I absolutely loved it. It was a light bulb moment. I think this feeling of not being boxed in anymore, uh, and not having an organization or people above you to say, you are this. This is your skill set and this is what you will do. And actually now being able to, for the first time, going back to that blank page we talked about at, uh, being seven, I was able to kind of recreate my story again in my career in the way that I wanted it to be done. And suddenly you realize there are no limits apart from the ones that we obviously put on ourselves. And I had felt there were a lot of limits put on me by that point. So I left. And that's how really the business started. But I didn't realize it at the time. I just thought I was going to continue to just do some consulting and, you know, help bring up my kids. But stuff changed and ended up building a business by kind of a bit of an accident.

Speaker A: So it's amazing how often that's the case, I think. I mean, yours even sort of strikes me as the, uh, cliche is a wrong decision made for the right reasons. Yours kind of sounds like the opposite to me, like a right decision ultimately, but maybe made for the wrong reasons because you were just forced to. And I think I'm right. When we first met, you told me your kids are only a year apart. Is that right?

Speaker B: They're only a year apart, yes.

Speaker A: Goodness me, yeah.

Speaker B: That's a handful to anybody. It was truly awful. It's better now, though, much that, you know, they're a lot older. But at the time, it was, it. It was, it was hard. I mean, having kids anyway is difficult. No one gives you a. Well, they do give you a book, but it doesn't bloody help. So, yes, so they were in close succession. But I always say to them, now that they're older, uh, you know, you guys saved my career. If it hadn't been for them, I would still be in that corporate world and I'd probably convince myself that I was relatively happy, you know, but would I be really fulfilled? I'm not even sure I would admit it to myself that I wasn't. So I always tell them now that having kids and having them absolutely saved my career. I'm very grateful to that situation happening for me. Um, but I do appreciate, I think it is hard for lots of people to make that kind of leap. It's comfortable enough, but it's still pretty painful, but it's not painful enough to have to make quite a catastrophic move to, uh, completely leave and not have anything to go to.

Speaker A: So, Helen, you're running a successful kind of consultancy. You're working with, uh, lots of clients that you're happy with. But then there's a moment where you decide to take things up a notch. Can you tell us about that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, Covid, we managed to kind of keep our heads above water a little bit. I just saw that as a bit of a success. Just the fact that we could stay afloat, really. And coming out of COVID obviously the world had changed quite a lot. And I think sustainability had become increasingly more of interest to people and we were doing more work in that space. I thought I was doing pretty well really, you know, considering. But I sat down with a client just before Christmas and, uh, she sort of turned to me and said, so, you know, what your plans for next year with the business then? And I was about to tell her, you know, I think we might recruit someone. I think we're going to look to kind of grow in this space and kind of, you know, be a bit formulaic about it. And I stopped myself, actually, and I. I looked at her and I said, what do you think we should do? And, uh, she looked at me, she said, I think you need to go all in. And her saying that really bothered me. And it bothered me for a number of reasons. Firstly, I thought, well, I am all in, aren't I? I mean, I'm very much an all in or nothing kind of person. And I really felt up until that point, I'm, um, 100% in on this. I'm giving it everything. And she kind of said, you know, look, I think you're riding a Christopher wave. And I think now it's time to actually really go all in. And m. It kind of resonated in my head. And I. I kept thinking about it over the Christmas. It bothered me, and I couldn't understand why. It was a simple statement, really. But, uh, I realized that I was afraid on two different levels. I was afraid to go all in in case it kind of went wrong. And I guess that's kind of understandable. Lots of business owners, lots of people feel that way. I think when you are running a business, you, um, really putting yourself out there, there is that potential for failure. And you have to be comfortable with feeling embarrassed, um, and kind of picking yourself up and moving forward. And I think if I was honest, that did kind of bother me quite a bit. But the other thing that surprised me was I was also quite worried about what the prospect would be if we succeed. And what does that mean to my life changing in terms of, you know, my time with my children and my free time and, you know, friends and family? Because I think anyone that is running a really successful business will tell you that you have to sacrifice an awful lot and give up a lot in order to succeed, I think. And people don't tell you that. And so I think just being faced with those two side points that are kind of one side of both of the same coin, it really, really bugged me. But I couldn't let it go. And I knew that actually at that point, come January, I needed to go all in, that there would be something within me that I would never be satisfied with unless I did that. So we went all in. We really invested in ourselves. We bought more people into the team because we needed that. We were really vocal about what we were doing and really confident about ourselves. And I think from that point, good things just kept following. And I think sometimes it's a lesson to kind of. You have to take those leaps of faith at certain points in your life and jump, and you're closing your eyes because you're not quite sure what's going to happen. And it is scary. But I really believe that the scariest thing of all of this is I don't want to be 80 and looking back at my life and thinking I didn't do it. So I think in that regard, I just went all in, essentially. And that's what we've been doing ever since. I guess lots of business owners will feel the same. There's something within you that you just have to do it. It's almost like this kind of hunger or. Or itch that you have to scratch. It's kind of. You just can't let it go. And, um, despite that, you'd have to have that, I think, because the pain of it sometimes is so awful. And so I would be lying if I said that since that point, it's all been rosy and perfect and we've all sailed off into the sunset, because we definitely haven't. And we have had times of hardship and difficulty and frustration. And I have, at least once a year, I go through a phase of thinking, why the hell am I doing this? I know I just can't walk away. And so it's this really kind of ridiculous relationship that I have with it is probably deeply unhealthy. But at the end of the day, you know, you are who you are, aren't you? And I think you just have to lean into the things that, that make you you. And, um, there have been lots of highs, but there are lots of lows that go with it. And I think it's important, I'm learning, I'm still learning to try and embrace both with the same level of kind of mindset and, um, attention that it deserves or doesn't deserve, really.

Speaker A: And it must help in all of those moments that your work is quite purposeful. So I'd love to steer us down this area of the work. Now, what sustainability communications is, what does it look like? Is there sort of one piece of work that you think best sums up the approach of HN Communications that you're really, really proud of?

Speaker B: I mean, I think there's obviously lots of things that we're proud of, and it's hard to kind of pinpoint one thing, but I think there's kind of one theme, one biggest success factor is if we can, and, um, we do work with global businesses and organizations and if we can take them to a point where they stop communicating on sustainability in the traditional way that a corporate has always communicated its marketing and its sales and its corporate reputation, if we can stop them doing that and realign their thinking and change their approach when it comes to communicating on sustainability. And rather than use sustainability as a mechanism in which to promote your business, sell your product, you use sustainability in a way that shows a level of humility and honesty and share the learning and the difficulty that you're facing along that journey. If we, and we do, if, when we do help businesses shift that mindset and operate differently in the style and the approach that they communicate, we know we have helped them by de risking their organization from the risks of greenwashing. And we also believe that we have better served consumers out there because we have encouraged businesses to get comfortable with talking about the difficulty and not having all the answers as well as the positive elements as well. So I think that for us is a constant theme that we try and work with all of our clients on. And I think that's the one thing that we feel most proud of.

Speaker A: That's really interesting. I've not heard it described like that before, but it makes perfect sense to me that you could almost unwittingly accidentally end up in this greenwashing zone. Because if you've got that marketing mindset or promotional mindset, then you're always accentuating the positives of what you're doing, which is why you would only talk about this one brilliant green program that you have and not talk about everything else, because that's what you do when you're promoting for sales.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And for marketing.

Speaker B: You're exactly right. I agree. I think the vast majority, the vast majority of business do not want to be greenwashing, but the reality is, because they have always traditionally communicated in a particular style and way like you've just described, when you do that, you're inevitably going to trip yourself up in this greenwashing space and put your organization at risk. And so I think it's about having a fundamental shift in terms of how corporates see communicating on this topic because it is not the same as all the other approaches that they have for their product or their consumers or their employees. It is different and we have to approach it differently.

Speaker A: And how do you get them to do that? So presumably you're getting them to communicate the stuff that's really tough and the challenges and the kind of the missed targets. And here's our ambition, but we've fallen short here. And this is a real departure from a lot of corporate communications.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it takes time and a level of trust that we look to build up. And I think often when we work with businesses, we're always very clear that, you know, we're not the kind of people to hire if you want to expect an immediate one week overnight success. Some of the work that we do, I mean, we try and do some of that, but some of the work that we do is very much on that long term credibility, long term legacy and trust. And actually sustainability is long term for a lot of these businesses. You know, we're looking at 20, 30 years into the future that they have a program of which to decarbonize. My aim is always to build a level of trust with those key people within the business and show them the case studies, show them how it can work successfully and also show them the risks of what happens when we just continue to operate in the same way. And there are lots of examples out there. And I also think that, you know, even businesses that don't work with us but are interested in this space, I always say go and have a look at what NGOs are doing. They are the absolute masters of communicating on sustainability in a way that is to educate is to help learning for the greater good. Show where it's difficult and do that with a level of humility, but one that is not going to damage your brand and your reputation either. So I think it's about striking a Balance. It's about knowing that if you know, what's the alternative, the alternative if you don't do this is you're actually putting yourself at a lot of risk. So it's about starting to feel comfortable bringing in that level of humility. And I think it's quite freeing for businesses. We see that once they feel they have the permission to say that, we don't have all the answers, but we're trying and we have a plan and these are some of the things that we're doing. And this is working and this isn't. That's when they're starting to have a real honest conversation and actually they can bring real value to the discussion, not just within their organization, but much more beyond.

Speaker A: Nice. Thank you for that. So you mentioned NGOs there, Helen, and I know that something that you're particularly passionate about is corporate NGO partnerships. Now I imagine that uh, at the minute, with everything that's going on in the world, I mean particularly in the US and we're seeing traditional sources of funding for NGOs be under threat, that this is an area that has real potential and might become a kind of critical lifeline for many NGOs over the next few years. But tell us about what that means to you and what makes a great partnership.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think within the terms of sustainability at least, because that's the topic that I know. When NGOs and the corporate world come together, something special often happens. There are two worlds that often in the past I think have kind of clashed a little bit. And actually maybe that's right, that's okay because I think NGOs are fantastic at uh, bringing businesses in particular, but also governments to account. And we need that. I think where there's a real benefit is when NGOs come together, working with corporates to help realize those corporates goals when it comes to sustainability. So like I mentioned, no one has all the answers to how we're going to get to net zero. But I think NGOs have a real specialism at being able to bring together, uh, business from all different industries. But often you'll find that particularly with sustainability, you're going to have a similar issue. Regardless of whether you're a, uh, drinks manufacturer, a clothing manufacturer or a service based industry. Often there are threads within all industries that are going to have some similar challenges. So things like renewable electricity. But what they can't do is that it's very difficult for these worlds to all come together, um, and realize where the problems are and where the collective opportunities are, uh, and this is where I think NGOs can really help elevate and put a spotlight on some of these areas to show if anything, you know, that rate of opportunity. So if we've got, you know, 100 major global corporates saying that they all want to shift to renewable electricity, that's a significant signal back to energy companies to say, right, maybe we need to then start looking at generating more renewable energy because we can clearly see the potential value here. And I think so. NGOs have a great ability to kind of bring those worlds together, identify the problems, but also bring that kind of collective opportunity to solutions as well. And I, I just think that the NGO world has got a great role to play in helping the business world move further and faster.

Speaker A: Really interesting. And you've mentioned the importance of collaboration and know that you carry this through into your work with sustainability leaders, where you're building a, uh, community of sustainability leaders. Tell us a bit about that.

Speaker B: Yes, we're primarily a female led business, but we have men and women within the business, but we're primarily female led. And um, over the past couple of years we've just really looked to build a space for particularly female leaders in sustainability to kind of come together in a safe space to kind of share the challenges and the difficulties. So like we talked about earlier, my philosophy around being able to get comfortable with sharing challenges as well as the successes and what you're working on, this is really a space to allow, I guess, some of those people working in that space to come together from very different industries, different sectors, some from NGOs, some from corporate, and sit down over a good meal and talk about some of the challenges and difficulties, but in a supportive environment. I've um, always been a big believer, even from the kind of parliamentary days, that if we can get more people sat down in a room and talking and sharing thoughts and ideas and finding connections together, it's so often those moments that allow us all to move forward exponentially. So I think that's our uh, kind of big focus here with this community, is trying to give that space for this dialogue, but in a relaxed environment.

Speaker A: Well, it won't surprise you that I agree wholeheartedly with that. Obviously it's telegram giants work big about building communities, but just the power that one single conversation can have at an event like that is mind blowing. And I think anyone listening can trace back a particular conversation that had a big impact on their life. I think I've been thinking about this a lot recently, but everyone's had one of those conversations. Well, you mentioned that conversation where your client told you, I think you need to go all in, and that will change the course. You know, I think everyone's got a story like that. And so, yeah, leaning into the power of good, safe, constructive conversation is so powerful.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.

Speaker A: So, Helen, you started your business out of a kind of a frustration with how you were treated when you returned to work after children and various other factors. So I, uh, imagine that you've got a little bit of a radical way that you run your own business. Tell us how your whole ethos is when you're leading a team now.

Speaker B: So we are 100% remote. We always have been. We are fully flexible. And what I mean by that is, you know, it really is fully flexible. So we will have team members who are from the uk, but they might choose to go and work in Japan for six months, one of whom did that quite recently.

Speaker A: Oh, wow.

Speaker B: Some of them also have additional jobs to working with us, and we're very supportive of that, too. And obviously, for a lot of our team, they have other passions and interests within their life. And I think, again, we often assume that you can't possibly be committed and focused and passionate about what you do in your job if you're doing something else for 20% of the time, you're not, therefore, totally committed. I think it's total rubbish. I think we are much more complex beings than that. And actually, we can have many passions. Just because it's not 100% doesn't mean to say that you're any less passionate. And I think that's how we see work. And I feel, you know, for my team, it's really important that they feel happy and that they feel free, because I know for myself, that's what I didn't feel in my previous job anymore. And I think when people feel happy and they feel free and they're doing something purposeful, and our work, we believe, is very purposeful, that I think that's when people do their best work. And, you know, I want the best people, and I want to do the best work in the world in this space. I'm, um, really committed to doing that. And I believe the best way that we will do that is having the best creative minds in the place where they are happy, they feel safe, they feel energized, and they're doing something meaningful. And I really believe it's that type of environment that enables us as a relatively small. We are a small business. We can compete with some of the biggest brands in the world and we're quite happy and we quite enjoy doing that. But I believe we can do it because we don't operate in the same way that they do. We operate differently and that gives us a much bigger edge.

Speaker A: I was going to ask you actually, do you think that you've been able to attract talent that you just would not have got if you had, huh, decided to set up in a shiny office in London, say, and be a fully office based company?

Speaker B: Definitely in that I think we've been able to attract talent that are from different countries with different perspectives, different cultures. And for us we see that as a massive benefit because having those different perspectives and being able to have an uh, environment where opinion and perspective is encouraged and welcomed and we debate it and we discuss it and it's celebrated, that really all builds and helps to our own creativity. And we definitely wouldn't have that if we were just, um, beholden to one location. So I think that is a big factor. I also think the culture within the business, having a purpose and a reason to drive forward, I think is important for people. And I think giving them that sense of full agency over their lives and um, that they bring them their best self to work is also a big powerful factor. And I think, you know, we're a small business, we still have a lot of that kind of startup type feelings from time to time. And that can be quite challenging, I would imagine, for some of the team, I suspect. But I think they are so committed to seeing the business grow and they want to be part of that journey and that story that, you know, they're willing to roll their sleeves up and kind of go all in with me if you like. And I think you can't do that if you've got a crap culture because, you know, you will not find those great people that are willing to go all in with you to help you build the business. So I think as a leader, if you are a small business, you have to think creatively as to how to create that best environment to get the best talent possible. Because it's not always going to be the money because you can't compete with the Aiden Wunds of this world, um, on that at least.

Speaker A: Yeah. You can't compete on the salary. Yeah, yeah, absolutely Helen. Sadly, we've got to come to the last section of the podcast, which is a little bit radical world. If there is someone listening out there who has a little bit of a radical idea, maybe for a business or for their personal lives or whatever it might be, what advice would you give them.

Speaker B: I think I would just say it's just don't be afraid. And I know that sounds like a really glib statement, but I think fear drives so much of what we don't do or what we do in our lives. I look back on definitely that early sort of 10 years of my career, believing, convincing myself I was happy, but I knew deep down I probably wasn't. And then when push came to shove, you know, I was so afraid to do it, but I did it anyway. And it was that moment in my life that changed the course of my career, but also my life and also what I've been able to build and the people that I've met. And had I not have had that leap of faith in myself, had I not have bet on myself and said, no, I'm doing this, and then latterly saying, no, come on, I'm going to go all in now. If I'm committed, I'm going to really do it. I'm going to deal with it whether I feel scared or not. And I think I always love that. I think it might have been Cheryl Sanborn that has always said that, you know, what would you do if you weren't afraid? And I think that fear drives us all too often. And I think, you know, we do have. I believe we have one life. And I think I never want to look back with regret that I didn't do it because I was afraid. So I think for me, it's about not allowing fear to determine your future.

Speaker A: Hell, yeah. Don't be afraid. So, Helen, thank you so much for spending, um, some time with us to tell us all about your work and your life today. That's it, but I hope to speak to you again soon. Thank you for listening to this podcast. If you enjoyed it, please follow us on your podcast platform. If you'd like to appear on A Little Bit Radical or have an idea of someone we should speak to, please email podcast@ah, standingongs.com or get in touch with me on LinkedIn. You can search Rob Faulks or search Standing on Giants and you'll find me there. Thank you very much and speak to you next time.