AGL 475: Marissa McCourry

Speaker A: This is the Geek Leader podcast and I'm your host, John Rauda. This show is all about helping us grow as leaders, become better technologists and improve our lives both at work and at home. I hope you enjoy the show and learn a lot. Welcome to A Geek through the Podcast. I'm your host, John Rauda, and if you could please do me a favor and take a moment and leave a rating and review in whatever podcast player you're listening to this on, whether it's Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, Our Heart Radio, doesn't matter. I've got, uh, greatly appreciate it and that feedback really helps get other listeners to the show. Also, if you're not subscribed, go ahead and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And if you feel so inclined, you can go to a Geekloud.com tip and donate to the show. Thanks so much.

Speaker B: All right, you leaders. I'm honored to have Marissa McCurry on the show. Uh, she's an executive coach, leadership development expert who helps, uh, people like me and you guys, uh, become better leaders. And she's uh, also the, uh, owner, uh, of a firm called Influence, which we'll be talking about today and how they help leaders get to that breakthrough moments and understand how they can better serve their, their employees. Anyway, with all that being said, Marisa, um, welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Thank you. I appreciate you having me here.

Speaker B: If you don't mind, just tell the audience a little about how you got into leadership, uh, development and coaching and uh, how you got to where you are in your career. Just lay some context.

Speaker C: Sure, sure. Uh, I'll try to make it, try and make it quick here. So I'm a former corporate person and um, and I run my own shop now. I have my own firm. But I came out of corporate America, uh, global corporate enterprises. And I, um, was specifically in the HR realm there. And what I did there was develop leaders. So I was in leadership and executive development of corporate leaders, corporate leaders of all, um, of all levels. So first time leaders, leader of leaders, leader of functions, leader of business, all the way up to sometimes the C suite. Um, and so I have kind of three different lenses that I've worked in leadership development through, ah, in my career. I started in, um, the academic space. Uh, I was not a professor or an academician, but I worked with professors to help them package up their knowledge and content for um, executive learning courses, executive learning programs. So, so, um, in a couple of different universities. One of them was Thunderbird School of Global Management. Another one was University of Arizona and I worked in executive education in both of those areas. Mostly helping professors do like experiential learning. Like how do you make the course really practical, really land not just academic, not just case study, but really m impactful and career changing for the executives who would be going through it. So that's one lens is sort of looking at leadership development. In Mxybe then I was an external consultant, Um, I worked for a company um, that did a lot of simulation based learning, leadership learning through simulations and that was a um, Swiss based company and I'm um, sorry um, Swedish based company and we worked with companies all over the US and globally again at all different leadership levels. And then the third lens is from the internal side. So I worked at both Vanguard, which is an asset management investment um company and Visa. Visa meaning like the card that you have in your wallet. Um, and I did global enterprise wide leadership development for them. Again for leaders of all shares and sizes. Um, so those three different lenses, academic, external and internal, are the ways that I've viewed how leaders develop um, ah, from an adult learning standpoint and really you know, from a, when the rubber meets the road, what really works in um, organizational space.

Speaker B: So how did you transition from that corporate world uh, into you know, running your own firm?

Speaker C: Well I've had my own leadership development and coaching firm for about 10 years and I always had kind of on the side. So I ran it through uh, the compliance teams. Uh, it's an outside business activity. I filled out my OBA forms for some of these uh, firms and they said yes, you can continue to do this. And so um, last year I decided to leave the corporate space and really kind of bet on myself and develop uh, this as more of a full time effort than it has been in the past. And the reason that it's exciting to take that leap is because I've experienced um, really world class um, leadership development. I've experienced that myself. I've also helped create it for other people and provide coaching. Either I've done that myself within these corporations or I've hired really uh, excellent external firms to provide group coaching and executive coaching. And so I see what some of the biggest um, and best firms do for their senior talent, for their key talent, for their high potential talent. But small and mid sized firms can't necessarily always afford to do that. And so by, by having my own company, my own firm, I can bring some of that same quality of um, developmental activities. I can bring that to smaller and more mid sized firms. So it's really fun, fun work.

Speaker B: Yeah. So when you're doing this like, what does engagement typically look like? Is it like a one session or is it like an ongoing coaching type experience where you're going to repeatedly. Or what do most, let's say m. Mid, you know, mid career leaders need to really like establish themselves and get into management and leadership?

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, it's a good question and the short answer is it's not a one and done. The short answer is it's not a one time, um, course per se or engagement. And um, I would say the question that we might tackle prior to explaining kind of the actual logistics of it is, is kind of the philosophy of coaching. Um, I think a lot of people know, think they know what coaching is. Everyone coach at some point in their lives. Right. Like what, what kind of coaches did you have in your early years?

Speaker B: Let's see, we had basketball, lacrosse, uh, baseball. Yeah, lots of them.

Speaker C: Right. And I would guess some of those coaches good. And some of those coaches were rough or not so good or didn't leave such a great imprisonment. Right? Yeah. And what was sort of a defining characteristic about some of those coaches for you?

Speaker B: Um, I like the coaches that cared the most and seemed to like listen and hear you. Um, the coaches that just told you what to do and then never like followed up. I did not like, because it's like, like they, they could care less whether you're doing it right or wrong. They, they gave you the information. They're done know I didn't care for this.

Speaker C: Yeah. So the interesting thing about the word coach is that we all have a connotation of where coach is. We all have some sort of a past interaction with somebody who called themselves a coach. And the truth is anybody can call themselves a coach. Right. Like your basketball coach may or may not have even had any basketball experience. Um, and that's the same in professional coaching. Honestly, there's so many different types of coaching. There's, there's life coaches, there's business coaches, there's parenting coaches, there's joy coaches, there's uh, you know, there's yoga coaches, there's menopause coaches. I mean there's a coach of every flavor and it's an unregulated industry and anyone can call themselves a coach. And that means that it's a bit of the wild west in that you have some that are good and some that aren't. You have some that teach and tell and some that support. Um, you have some that um, um, to know what they're doing. And others that are fly by. And so I'm, I am, um, a certified coach. I'm m certified by the International Coaching Federation, the icf. Um, and it, it separates the, the wheat from the chaff a little bit. It means that we've gone through, those of us who are ICF coaches. We've gone through a tremendous amount of training and coaching and supervision. We have had supervised coaching sessions. Um, and there's a whole philosophy that an ICF coach adheres to. And the principle is that an ICF coach does not teach or tell. So we do not advise, we do not suggest, we do not tell you. We do not say, well, if I were in your shoes, here's how I do it. Oh, I really wouldn't do that if I were you. I'm gonna go down that way. Don't take that path. Um, we don't say, hey, when I was your age or in your role when I did it, here's how it played out for me. We don't do any of that. That's mentorship. Actually, when somebody says, hey, I've been down your path before and I can tell you, um, the potholes that I stepped in and how not to step in them, that's not coaching, that's mentorship. Um, then there's something else which is sponsorship, which is, hey, I'm going to speak about you and vouch for you and help build your reputation and your brand. And I'm going to do that when you're not in the room. So I'm your vice president and you're a vice president. And when you're not around, I'm going to say, man, vote on, vote on John. He is excellent. He is really stellar at X and Y and Z. That is me being a sponsor for you. That's also not what a, ah, professional coach does. So we're not mentors, we're not sponsors. We don't act the same as your boss. Your boss has an agenda. They have certain objectives they need done and they need you to help do them. And so they are not unbiased, they are not without judgment. They are charged with evaluating your performance. And it's not what a coach does. We are non judgmental. We don't bring an agenda to it. We're not charged with evaluating your performance. Um, uh, and we're different than a peer as well. A peer. You might go out with one of your buddies, uh, or a friend and say, man, this thing is happening at work right now. This thing is so frustrating. The such and such team is doing this and my team is trying to do this and your peer is going to say oh man, oh I identify with you. I was there once too. Or man, that sucks. You know, just give them a piece of your mind or whatever. Right. Like your peer is just there to um, support but in a very different way. And so a lot of people have all those things in their lives. They have managers, they have peers, they have spouses, they have friends, they have mentors, but they don't have a coach. Um, and so a coach um relationship is a bit different than any of those other ones that I just described. So a coaching relationship is much more about um, helping you to define your goals and figure out with you, not for you, but figure out with you what steps you would take to achieve those goals. What are some of the roadblocks that are in your way? What are some of the mindsets that you might have or beliefs that you might have that are actually limiting and they're kind of holding you back? How are you in your own way? Um, and so it's, it's a very personal relationship that goes pretty deep. And so I explain all of that to answer your first question, which is how do people work with you? Like is it a one time thing or is it an ongoing thing? It's, it's much more an ongoing thing. And um, oftentimes we um, we begin a coaching relationship through some assessments through like different uh, leadership assessments or 360 assessments or um, self assessments, um, to figure out you know, what's my conflict style, what's my communication style, how is this working for me, how is it working against me, how emotionally intelligent am I. Uh, we do a lot of eq, uh, which is emotional quotient, EQ similar to iq, intelligence quotient. We do a lot of eq, um, um assessments and work on that as well.

Speaker B: Do you do things like strength finders or some uh, of the other like assessment assessments to try to figure out what people's uh, strengths are I guess and their weaknesses and where they should focus on and things like that.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So strength finders used to be gallops and now it's uh, now it's CliftonStrengths Finder and I do some uh, some strengths based work with folks as well. Um, I think you know many people know what some of their strengths are. Most people don't know what all of their strengths and um, when we can pull on our strengths and um, craft tasks and projects and careers and roles that use our strengths, we're more fulfilled, we're happier, we're typically more successful. So yeah, strengths based coaching is something that we do as well.

Speaker B: So you mentioned EQ and emotional intelligence and that's kind of one of the things that, um, you hear a lot about when it comes to leaders. What would, how would you define EQ and how, how important is that to being a good manager? Good boss, good leader?

Speaker C: Yeah. I'm going to turn the tables on you.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: How would you define it? What do you, what do you, what do you know about eq, if anything? And it's okay if the answer is not much.

Speaker B: Um, well, uh, let's see. If I, if I had to think about like what EQ is, I would say it's probably like the ability to read a room. It's the ability to uh, communicate on the level of the person you're communicating to. So you're not communicating, communicating at the way you want to be talked to, but more about how they want to be talked to. It's empathy, it's seeing people for who they are. It's uh, sharing, you know, the appropriate amount of, of uh, details when, when needed and understanding who you're, if you're communicating to an executive, you know, you have a different level of detail than if you're communicating to an individual contributor and how to, how to handle that.

Speaker C: Bravo. That's a pretty good answer.

Speaker B: That's one of the best I can do. All right.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, you got a lot of the, a lot of the things, uh, you hit it on the head with a lot of those things. So yeah, I mean most of us are familiar with iq, right. Which is intelligence quotient. Um, most of us haven't had our IQ actually tested, but most of us know what IQ means. And the interesting thing about IQ is that it pretty much stops climbing at about the age of maturity, about age 18.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: If you ever did have your IQ tested, it won't really change for the rest of your adulthood. Um, eq, which is emotional quotient, of course, does and can grow and change over time. And so the interesting thing is wherever your EQ is right now, it's not set in stone. And so with intention and with effort, you can increase your eq. And EQ is one of the most reliable predictors of success in leadership. EQ is one of the most reliable predictors of success. It is highly positively correlated with success in a role. Hmm.

Speaker B: Mhm. So how do you go about assessing your current EQ and then in turn growing It. So you become more successful in leadership.

Speaker C: Yeah, great question. Well, there's, there's several different, um, assessments. So tests. I mean, an assessment is just a test, right? It's typically an online test with a few clicks here and there for, you know, 10 or 15 minutes online. And there are several different tests for that, and we call them psychometric tests. Um, and of course they have to be, you know, validated and statistically valid and culturally appropriate, uh, across cultures and that sort of thing. The test that I use in my firm is called the EQI 2.0. Um, and it's a test that. It's a self assessment about 15 minutes online, and it runs through five different aspects of EQ. And then we unpack that into 15 different subscales. So each of the five aspects has three subscales underneath it, which equates to 15 things. So you got a lot of them on the head. Um, I'll go through what those five are just for the benefit of our listeners, if they're interested. But one of them is self perception. Uh, it's really kind of internal, right? How do you perceive yourself? And the subscales that go with that are self regard, which is essentially self esteem. Um, how do you regard yourself? Another one is self actualization. How goal oriented are you? The phrase self actualization is most widely known with Abraham Maslow's, you know, Maslow's pyramid of hierarchy of needs. Um, the tippy top of that pyramid is self actualization, which just means being the best John you can be. Just being the mo. The most, uh, uh, achievement oriented, uh, the best version of John that you can be. And then the, the last one, then self perception is emotional self awareness. How aware are you of your own emotional data? And then, um, ah, another one of the five, the second of the five is self expression. So how express yourself to others? So that's when you said, you know, reading the room, speaking to executives differently than you might speak to your direct reports, modulating yourself. All that falls under sort of self expression. How do we express ourselves to others? Um, how do we express our own emotions? When I'm frustrated, how do I express it? When I'm pleased, how do I express it? Um, another piece of that is assertiveness. Am I able to be assertive without aggressive? Am I able to be assertive and assert my points of view and my own emotional data without it being off putting to others? And another one is independence. How independent am I? Not as a worker, not as, you know, do I like to work in teams? Or by myself, but independence in terms of emotional, um, can I count on myself to, um, or do I really depend on others to tell me that I'm competent, that I'm good, that I'm good enough, or do I know that independently? And then the third piece of the five piece puzzle is interpersonal. Um, what does that mean for interpersonal relationships? Are you empathetic to others? Um, do you sort of see the greater good or are you all out for number one? All out for you, all out for just your team? Or do you see what the other teams around you need? Do you see what the larger enterprise needs? Um, um. So that's kind of the interpersonal realm. Um, um, four out of five is decision making. And that encompasses a couple of things. How, how quickly and easily can you solve problems? When there is emotional data, when there is the emotions of other people or your own emotions, how quickly and easily can you solve problems? And then another piece of that decision making is reality testing. Um, are you living on this earth or are you off in la la land? Are you, you know, are you the kind of leader who says we can achieve it, team, we can do it. And they're saying, oh my gosh, he has no idea the amount of effort that it would take thing off? Or are you the kind of leader who says we can never pull this off, we would need 15 more headcount to do this. And meanwhile your team is like, well, let us have a chance, like we think we could do this right? So you know, are you living in reality or do you need to be a little grounded by others? Um, uh, impulse control. How does that factor into your decision making? Can you bite your tongue when you need to? Can you delay gratification with some impulse control? So that's number four out of five. The fifth one is stress management. How do you handle stress? Do you have coping mechanisms and are they healthy? Coping mechanisms? Right, so all of us have one. Is it working for you? Do your coping mechanisms make things better or worse? Um, you know, what level of flexibility do you have? How adaptable can you be when things change on the fly? Um, uh, and what is your level of optimism? Are you a glass half full or glass half empty kind of a person that all factors into stress management? So those are the five pieces of, um, emotional intelligence, um, as created in this particular assessment. The assessment was not created by me, it's by Jamin Nehruv and Bahrain from several decades ago. And it is the most well used and most renowned, um, emotional intelligence assessment out there. And what's interesting about EQ is that the higher our EQ is, the happier we are. Z1. There's one scale in the assessment where when I debrief people's reports on this and when we talk about it together, there's actually a measurement of your happiness that comes out of this, your overall well being.

Speaker B: I, I can definitely see that because I find that when you focus more on others, focus more on um, understanding things from a larger perspective instead of like the, the weeds, you know. And whenever you focus on ways to cope health healthily with stress, like you know, whether it be physical activity, taking a walk, something that seems to be more on the health side, uh, it doesn't improve happiness. It increases your, you know, dopamine, your serotonin. You become a more pleasant person to be around. And I think that starts a, uh, almost like a snowball effect where it's when you just grow over time.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because when I, when I'm speaking with my coaching clients about some of this eq, we always identify a couple of pieces, a couple of these 15 subscales that I just went through. We always identify a couple of them that would be most helpful for the person to improve upon MHM work to increase. But what's interesting is that when we work on just those two or three, it's like a rising tide raises all ships. All of a sudden all of the other subscales get a little bit higher. The tide rises with them as well. So when we increase a little bit of stress tolerance, all of a sudden our impulse control gets better as well. And then all of a sudden our optimism increases as well. So it's interesting, it's really life changing to work on eq, um, and it really affects people in the workplace and outside of the workplace. Inevitably the clients that I work with, it starts off as a very professional goal as to why they're wanting to increase their eq. But everyone ends up saying to me, um, this has increased my home life, this has made me a better sibling, a better parent. Um, so it's really, you know, the rising tide does, does, um, Yeah, I agree 100%.

Speaker B: When I think back to like different things that I've done to try to improve, um, different aspects of leadership or emotional intelligence even. I can go back to a long time ago. We took my uh, wife and I took a parenting, like a, we were in a small group and we'd like a parenting small group class. And it was about, um, I forget the name of it now, but part of it was just how to communicate better to your children, how to be more empathetic with them and things like that. And I was able to, I quickly saw like, man, some of these things I'm doing my, you know, two year old work when I'm at work too, you know, with, with you know, my employees. So I started like using, you know, crossing over and using things back and forth and you know, so like improving a small area of home life, you know, translates over to how you communicate and improve things that work. And the same thing is true like with empathy. I struggled with empathy for many, many years just not being able to relate to people like doing a one on one. I like, I felt like I just need to tell them all this stuff and get, be done with it, you know, and move on to the next thing. I didn't like put myself into their shoes and try to see how they would receive what I was saying. And when I took time to intentionally like, like try uh, to say how would they receive what I'm about to tell them, you know, I have, you know, a poor performance review. How am I to give this poor performance review? What, what kind of, you know, drive do they have coming into work? What, what are their family life like, you know, and what's going on in their personal life and try to, you know, shape my message to kind of fit their current place instead of just spitting it out there. Um, I found that they received it better, they got better, and then I seem to care more about them, you know, and that helped me as a person as well. And it kind of, again, like you're saying, it kind of raised all the, all the ships.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. It's, it's fascinating work and it really, um, really does help people's overall well being and happiness, you know, because work is a stressful thing. You know, we want to enjoy what we do and enjoy our work. And um, and a lot of times we do and then some days we don't. Um, and the more uh, the higher req is and the more resilient. You know, sometimes we hear people say like, you need to be an adaptable leader, you need to be a resilient leader. You need to roll with the punches of change. Well, how do you do all that? And the answer is by having a higher eq. So um, we do have to put sort of intentional and deliberate effort into um, these things. And I have tools and techniques that I work with my clients on to increase some of these things. But first we have to get a bit of a baseline assessment and sort of see what are we working with here. Where do you really want to, um, improve different aspects of your leadership?

Speaker B: Are most people, um, I don't mean this like in a negative way, like they're, they're dishonest. But are most people honest with their own results or are they not capable of seeing themselves? You know what I mean? Like uh, they have a different. If, if you're, if you don't have good self awareness, how are you going to be able to respond honestly to an assessment about how you treat others, you know?

Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. That's a great question. So you know, in the field of social science and psychology, um, there are a lot of self assessments out there. And so, um, um, survey design, survey question. Design is a whole art and science in and of itself. And when a survey, a test like this is created, it has to go through a whole scientific validation process to make certain that it measures what it says it measures and then also that it measures what it says it measures consistently. So if you were to take this online test, this self assessment on a good Monday, um, and also on a bad Thursday, is it going to sort of give you the same results? And so that's all, you know, internal, um, uh, validity and internal reliability that, you know, has gone into the creation of some of these well respected, um, assessments. So um, in terms of, um, uh, does a self assessment actually reflect the real person that you are? It is a data point. It is a data point. And also in leadership we also do a lot of 360 assessments, um, which, you know, some of your listeners might know what a 360 is. For those of you who don't, it just means 360 meaning all directions around you. So it, it, uh, other people rate you in addition to you rating yourself. People below you would rate you, people who are laterally to you, peers or teammates would rate you. And then also people above you would rate you. And so that's why we say 360. Um, so that's also a great way to look at things. But self assessments are not, um, invalid on their face just because it's you reflecting on you. Because the questions have been designed in such a way that it really kind of gets underneath. Um, uh, it's, it's sort of hard to fudge one of these, it's hard to take uh, one of these tests and say, I'm going to see if I can ace this. I'm going to see If I could be the highest EQ person ever measured, I'm going to answer all the questions as if I were perfect. You know, it's hard to do that. It's hard to bluff one of these psychometric tests.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I know. Like, um, when I've gone through 360s, it's, it's always, you know, interesting to see where you do well and where you don't do as well. Like you may, you may think that uh, you're, you're great at leading up, but in reality maybe you're not. Maybe you're better at leading, you know, your people that you report to you versus, you know, communicating up to your boss. Other people may be really good at leading up and terrible with their peers or something like that. So I think having one and going through the assessment is really interesting to see how other people see you. And um, because it's not always how you think that they're going to see you.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's interesting. 3 6, 3 60s are always really enlightening. Um, and at the same time a lot of people, um, have to have buy in from their organization to do a360 because it does take time of other people. Um, so sometimes with 360s we want at least 10, if not more like 12 to 15 raters, you know, people who are rating you. Um, and that takes organizational time. Um, some of these three 60s, you know, take folks 30 or 45 minutes to fill out. So when you multiply that by 15 people, that's all of a sudden a lot of organizational time. So often 360s are kind of sponsored or endorsed by the organization. But on the flip side of that, these EQ self assessments, you don't need your boss's permission or um, the organization's sponsorship to do something like that as a self assessment. It's something that you can choose to explore on your own, you know, as, as a personal development, um, tool. And so that's, that's some of what I do with, with clients of mine is, um, some of them are, are just curious about this and wanting to develop themselves more. Some of them are doing it with uh, you know, with professional development funds that they can get reimbursed for. But other people are just choosing to, to do it on their own.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a good investment in your, your own life, you know, to see how you can grow because uh, you know, I don't think you put a price tag on happiness personally, but also like, if you're improving your Career, you're probably going to get a good ROI from it as you get raises and promotions and you know, become a better boss and a better leader in general.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean it's. Some of the best investment you can make is in yourself. You know, personal development, development and, and self awareness. That's, that's uh, as you said, hard, hard to measure because it's, it's uh, it's priceless.

Speaker B: Yep. So Marissa, if people want to find out more or uh, connect with you online and maybe do their own assessment, how would they go about reaching out to you?

Speaker C: Sure. And I, I don't want to sound like the assessments is the only thing that we do by, by far the thing that we've chosen to focus on today. But um, but yeah, I have, I have a leadership development um, ah, firm and coaching firm. I coach leaders of all levels, brand new leaders, people who are thinking about moving into leadership, people who are self leaders. You don't even have to be a formal leader, you know, But I do work all the way up the chain, um, leadership and sometimes the C suite, even in really large um, global enterprises. So the first way to get in touch with me would be um, either my website or on LinkedIn. Um, I think I'm the only Marissa McCurry out there in the world but I have a lot of double letters in my name so. But uh, on LinkedIn I'm you know, M A R I S S A M C C O U R R Y. Um, my firm name is as you said earlier, it's influence, not in but the letter M M fluence. Uh, and uh, so my website is um, not so easy to rattle off the tongue to be frank. But it's icf, which stands for International Coaching Federation which is what we talked about earlier. It's ICF coaching.org m um fluence f l u E N C E and then another slash. That just rolls right off the tongue doesn't it?

Speaker B: I'll LinkedIn in the show notes too. @akleiter.com people can go there and click through uh, along with your LinkedIn so people can maybe connect with you there as well. Um Marissa, thanks so much for coming on the show. I really appreciate having you on.

Speaker C: Thank you. I always offer a um, a free ah, consultation sort of 30 minutes to kind of discuss like you know, why is this of interest to you and what are you wanting to explore, you know, what questions do you have about coaching. So that's always a, a free offer that, that I um, and I'll offer that to your, to your listeners as well. And especially if they, um, if they send me, um, a note that they saw me on your podcast, I'll give them a, a special, special gift from the EQ Live.

Speaker B: All right. I'll, uh, put that in the show notes, too, so people can go through and do that. Thanks so much, Marissa.

Speaker C: Thanks so much, John. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: M Hope you enjoyed the show. Please go to a geekleader.com to learn more about what this guest is up to, click on their links and connect with them online. I would also greatly appreciate it if you could leave me a rating and review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. Make sure you subscribe if you haven't already. And if you feel so inclined, you can leave me a tip by going to geekleader.com tip.