AGL 493: Building or Diminishing with Doug Crandall

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Speaker B: This is the Geek Leader podcast and I'm your host, John Rauda. This show is all about helping us grow as leaders become better technologists and improve our lives both at work and at home. I, uh, hope you enjoy the show and learn a lot. Welcome M to a Geek Guru podcast. I'm your host, John Rauda, and if you could please do me a favor and take a moment and leave a rating and review in whatever podcast player you're listening to this on, whether it's Apple, Podcasts, Spotify, Our heart Radio, doesn't matter. A great greatly appreciate it and that uh, feedback really helps get other listeners to the show. Also, if you're not subscribed, go ahead and subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And if you feel so inclined, you can go to a Geeklouder.com tip and donate to the show. Thanks so much. All right, you leaders, today I'm honored to have Doug Crandall on the show. He's the author of Building or Diminishing. He's also the author of other books like Leadership, uh, Lessons from M, West Point, Permission to Speak Freely, and Hope Unseen. Uh, and today we're going to talk about leadership like we always do. Anyway, with all that being said, Doug, welcome to the show,

Speaker C: John. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, um, I'm super excited to talk to you about your, uh, your background and how you got to where you are in your career and how West Point played a, played a part of that. If, uh, you don't mind, just tell the audience like kind of that story of how you got it got into this.

Speaker C: Yeah, you bet. And West Point has played a really big role in it. Uh, I didn't grow up as like a military brat because I was the youngest of five kids and my dad had gotten out of the army before I was born, but he went to West Point. And then my mom and dad, my mom's dad went to West Point. So my dad and my grandfather, but my mom's dad actually died in World War II, uh, trying to escape from a prison ship. In the Pacific Theater. And that's really what put it in my brain. My older siblings, none of them went there, but I just kind of had this idea from middle school on that maybe I wanted to go to West Point. And uh, ended up happening. Actually hated it. Uh, I left after the first year. It's not a very common path. But I left at the completion of what's called our plebe year and was really fortunate. I had to totally reapply do the congressional nomination process again. But after a year at the University of Washington, I went back to West Point. Um, and that really carried me forward. I, uh, at my five year point where you can get out of the army, I decided to stay in really for the opportunity to go back and teach at West Point, which is something my dad said he had wished he had done. And

Speaker B: it

Speaker C: is a really great opportunity. M. The army sends you to graduate school, uh, and the subject here you're going to teach. So you go for two years, just kind of wear civilian clothes, go to the school, you're getting paid, uh, and then you go back and teach for several years. And I fell in love with teaching and that's actually where the writing journey began. I can remember a friend named Chip Daniels and I were up in the West Point bookstore in the academic building and we ran into a guy named Larry Olson who was the vice president of marketing for Wiley Josie Bass Publishers. And we just started talking about writing and that's what led to that first book, Leadership Lessons from West Point. And Larry's actually wrote the foreword for this book, Building or Diminishing.

Speaker B: Awesome. Yeah, that's a great, that's a great, great story. Um, I always uh, you know, love to hear about the uh, the military stories and you know, success. We've had several Navy Seals on the show and generals and other military leaders. And I've even employed a West Point graduate at one point for, for a while. Um, and it's just a, it's just a really cool aspect and uh, definitely want to say thank you for your service. My dad was in the army as well, fought in Vietnam. Um, but you get, gather a lot of leadership lessons when you have the military as your background. And what I found is just, you know, having a dad in the military and knowing some of that stuff, how, how those lessons transfer over to the civilian life into managing a team and leading a team and, and moving through that. How have you seen that those things transfer over?

Speaker C: Yeah, it's great question, John. I think really what the military affords you And I, I don't even. I don't know why I feel like I need to say it, but I do. I was. I was not a SEAL or a general even close to either one of those. But, uh, I think the military really affords you an opportunity for putting it crudely, like, to screw up. I mean, you're just thrown into so many situations, uh, at a young age. I mean, you're. I was a platoon leader at the age of 23, leading people who were. I mean, I think my platoon sergeant was like 47. You know, it was crazy. I mean, just. And so you are thrown into things where you got to figure stuff out. And I think really one thing West Point does really well is, um, builds in cadets, this muscle for reflection. So I'm m going to take these experiences. I was just talking to one. I had the good fortune of going back there a couple years ago and teaching as a civilian just for one year. And I was just talking to one of the cadets I taught who went through. Who recently went through Ranger school, which, uh, is 62 days in the woods, no sleep, no food. It's just a grueling school down in, uh, Georgia, Florida. Anyway, he had gone through an experience that was life changing for him. It kind of involved his integrity and his character. And he was telling me the story, and it translates wherever he goes in life, like that story is going to translate because he reflected on it and realized, like, how it built up what he really believes in. And so, um, they're all. There are all kinds of things, but you're dealing with people constantly. You're making decisions constantly, and then you're learning. I think if you're doing it right, you're learning from the things you do well and the things you screw up and, and that will carry forward into anything you're doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I was talking to, uh, Peter that used to work for me. Um, he was from West Point. He said kind of one of the things that he got out of, you know, uh, military leadership was the fact that at, you know, 22 years old, they gave him, you know, he was in charge of millions of dollars worth of equipment.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, you know, uh, what other company would do that? It would take someone right out of college and just say, here you go. And like you said, that opportunity to screw up.

Speaker C: And you really are. I mean, it's, you know, if that's the one thing that you try to impress upon all these cadets that go into the army is, yeah, you need to, you need to shut your mouth. And listen to the people who, who know a lot more, been doing this a long time, but when it comes down to like that equipment or this legal or illegal decision or whatever it might be, you don't, you don't look and say, hey, I'm only 23. Like the 37 year old told me what to do. Like it. There are these things that are absolutely um, fall on you and you have to, you have to take that responsibility on your shoulders. I remember I was uh, we were in the woods in Louisiana in November of 96 and I got a tank stuck just in this horrible way. The mechanics had to come fix it and I tried to craft a uh, a shortcut. I felt useless as they, just as we sat there literally for hours as they put our track back on our tank. And so I tried to, I got on my feet and tried to walk around and find us a shortcut to at least save us 15 minutes as it was now getting dark and we had to complete our mission that night. And what I didn't realize is I was finding this shortcut. I was putting these glow sticks, we call them Chem Lights out. So we almost like a, a uh, what a Hansel and Gretel like trail. So I could figure where we're going. I walked right through this bog like soft ground which didn't do anything to my 150 pound body. But when, when we ended up fixing the tanks and taking this shortcut, we got stuck again. So now it was not only my tank that was stuck, but the maintenance vehicle had a sergeant yelling at me and it was like dark and I was hungry and I actually turned that into a case study, um, when I was in graduate school. And we, we've used all the time, it's been used in other places and it, it's, you know, no one's going to get stuck in a bog, um, in their job, in, in healthcare or whatever it might be. But the idea that you've got this pissed off person that you lead yelling at you and you know you've screwed up and now what do you do about it? I mean those are the sorts of things that, that uh, that go to what you're saying. You know, how do you figure that out at that young age? So

Speaker B: yeah, no, I think there's, there's are lessons that, you know, it takes a lot longer to, to learn I think in the uh, civilian lifestyle.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah,

Speaker B: yeah. So I think, I think that's awesome. Um, so tell me a little bit about teaching because you said like you you fell in love with teaching. And I. I teach part time, too, at Winthrop University. I've been an adjunct professor for 15 years. That's something that I love to do. You know, don't get paid much for it, but I love doing

Speaker C: it.

Speaker B: And, uh, and plan on. Plan on doing it for as long as, you know, my body will let me. You know, as long has me here doing it, I'll do it. But, uh, tell me about what you get out of teaching and how that's helped you grow as a person.

Speaker C: Yeah. Well, two great questions. What I really loved about teaching, leadership in particular, and the way we did it at West Point was it was based on what I talked about earlier. You're sharing social science with cadets, but they're really blending that with the experiences they've gone through. Uh, they're writing papers on, hey, this summer I led this squad, and I struggle with this. And now let me apply this theory. But you're not telling them how to do it. Like, that's what I. That's what I fell in love with. You're really trying to create a classroom, at least the way I fell into trying to do it, where, um, you share your mistakes, so they're willing to share theirs. And you have these discussions going where they're sharing with each other. As an example, just a couple years ago, we were talking about kind of discipline and toughness almost some. I ended up using this quote in the book, um, from a young man at the time, a junior in college named Wyatt Richardson. And he just sort of reflected out loud, you know, you don't have to be disliked to be a good leader, but you have to be willing to be disliked. And I loved that quote. I mean, here I am, 50 something years old, and I was like, wyatt, let me stop and write that down. Like, that's a great notion there, that. Because we all. I think not we all, but many people struggle with this idea of, like, am I respected? Do people like me? Did I make this person mad? And what a great summation. Like, you don't have to be a jerk to be a strong. Leader. Which sometimes you get that message. Um, like you. I just. So that's what I love about it. Like kind of in a. In a microcosm is just these moments where somebody says something that's. That's 30 years younger than you. They're like, that's. That's incredibly wise. Um, and so trying to bring those out and not have it be about, like, Doug Crandall telling me how to lead rather Creating this environment where they feel safe enough to share their fears, their thoughts, um, that's what I loved. And so that all developed me. Like, it developed me as a teacher, it developed me as a person.

Speaker B: It

Speaker C: even led in a lot of ways to this book that I finished this summer. Uh, because I think in a classroom, you have to be building people, um, and not diminishing. It doesn't mean, like, you let them say whatever they want and get away with it. But how do you challenge something that someone said, uh, without making them feel stupid?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's. You know, I was at this leadership event this morning, and one of the things that I heard someone say that really resonated with me, you know, you. Because you mentioned sharing your mistakes. It said, you know, failure can be like fertilizer, but, you know, it stinks when you. When you. When it happens, you know. But,

Speaker C: uh,

Speaker B: it can help you grow in the long run, you know, And I think sharing is kind of one of those things that is necessary for that to be like fertilizer and not just.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, so. So tell me about this book. Um, Building, uh, or diminishing. Because that's kind of one of the things that leaders, you know, do we do one or the other usually, or, uh. You know, why. Why is there a distinction there?

Speaker C: Yeah. And I really, um. This. This grew kind of out of my personal life in the sense that for. For any of the parents out there, and it was one. The one thing that. That no one told me and I don't know if they should have is at least for me, I feel like parenting has become more challenging as our kids have become adults. Um, in certain ways, like, you stay close to them, you stay in their lives, their problems become, you know, getting laid off and. Or, uh, this relationship issue versus I said something mean to my fifth grade classmate or I drew on the wall or whatever, you know, so I. Our youngest had been living, uh, with us after he graduated college for a year. He's a great kid, sensitive kid, and he's going through a job search and he's having these, like, real life struggles. And I just started thinking about the things I was saying to him almost in a leadership capacity, and why would I ever say anything that diminishes him? I guess he's fighting to find a job, he's doing this, and he's a little down or whatever. Um, the words coming out of my mouth, are they building him or diminishing him? I just started to ask myself that question with him, with other people I was interacting with in the classroom. Um, and we put it on a slide one day and it just really stuck. I mean honestly John, this just took off from, hey, I'm not trying to come up with an idea and sell it. I'm taking the idea that we explore a lot of stuff when we teach. And uh, there was one gentleman who came up at the end of a six month program and said that question and our encouragement to ask yourself that constantly and build it as a habit was the number one thing that impacted him in a six month program that we taught. So, uh, just turned it into, to a longer session that we taught and then ended up writing a book about. It was sort of a natural outgrowth. And I really do. I, I like the book because it helped me think through the concept, helped me explore it and then I think it gets into some details in a really quick way. It's only 160 pages long. I mean, I think I've had people that told me, you know, they read it in four hours. Um, but it, it explores how that idea and then how you build that idea as a habit in your brain that you're constantly thinking. And the one argument I make, the one because I'm not big on leadership maxims or absolutes, but the one thing I say in there, it'd be interesting to have, you know, someone come back and, and discuss it if they had a counter argument, is I just can't, I can't think of any scenario where intentionally diminishing someone serves a purpose. I, um, think that, uh, yeah, there are times people's like, ego need to be checked and you need to break them down, but even that you're doing on purpose so that you can build them back up. Um, but, but that really for my own self, uh, has become sort of a filter and a thing on my conscience. Like why would I ever say something intentionally diminishing?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think that's really good. And I like what you're saying about parents because there's so many crossovers between, you know, being a good parent and being a good leader. And I think they're, they're almost kind of one of the same. There's so many things that I've, you know, I've taken parenting, uh, courses for when we had children. My wife and I took some to our church. And you know, taking some of those lessons, I've been able to apply them to my office and it works very.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And um, you know, and I love what you're saying about intentionally diminishing people. Because I found sometimes where I'll get so frustrated at, ah, you know, one of my children, and I'll say something to them, like, I'm really just tearing them down right now, like, let's stop that and let's figure out how to, like, you know, flip this and start building them back up. Because I shouldn't have, you know, been so mad at them because really they're just being a kid, you know.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And I. During the. In the, uh, the people who read it and send me some friends who read it and sent me some, uh, some texts on the side, I've had them from a woman in a high school friend who's a second grade teacher, you know, and so for her this was super relevant. She's the professional development, um, leader for her team at this elementary school. She's like, I'm giving everyone this book because it works in teaching. And I did have a friend who, um, incredibly successful army officer, like, awesome leader. And he sent me a text just about a conversation he'd had with his adult daughter. I think she's in her, you know, early to mid-20s. And how something that should have been a great weekend turned into this time where he just diminished her and beat her down. And after reading this, he needed to go back and like, say he was sorry. And so, um, I think we. We get that part. But, like, the book explores how much it is connected to leadership and our capacity when we are leaders to. We use. We use three things make people feel more confident, capable or valued. And we have outsized influence in people's lives when we're seen as their leader. And, um, you hear all the time like, your. Your title doesn't make you a leader. And like, I get the spirit behind that quote. But your title actually absolutely does make you a leader. It doesn't necessarily make you a good one, but it put. It gives you an authority and a power in people's eyes when you're their boss or you do have a title or whatever. It might be that. That words. Words hit differently and. And parenting, I think, is the same way.

Speaker B: Yeah, it runs. Reminds me of Spider Man. My kids just went to see the new Spider man. And you know, like, with great power comes great responsibility. It's like with that, with that higher title, you have more responsibility, uh, because your words mean more, you know, like,

Speaker C: absolutely,

Speaker B: you know, from a, you know, perspective, like, if I'm an individual contributor and I complain about the company, it means one thing, you know, but if I'm the, you know, CIO and I complain about the company. That's a very different conversation.

Speaker C: So,

Speaker B: um, yeah, it's one of those things that. Yeah. With great title. You have great responsibility

Speaker C: for. Sure. It's a great, great way to put it. It's a sticky way to put it. I like that.

Speaker B: Yeah. So when it comes to, um, you know, ways that we can build. You mentioned the three things. Confidence, uh, uh, capabilities, and uh, um. What was the last one

Speaker C: valued? Yeah, yeah,

Speaker B: yeah. Um, what are some things that people kind of traps that they fall into where they're not doing those things?

Speaker C: It's a great. Yeah, I love that. I love the traps. And we, we explore a little bit, but I think for all of us, the book's intended to be a reflection tool. So like, we'll give you some stuff, but we don't have the curated list of. But I think you start thinking about even just whether you, how you respond to someone's idea, um, whether you respond to someone's text. I mean, if you are some. Our. Our brain and the, the, um. The neuroscience demonstrates this, that like, we default to the negative. So if we, if we share an idea with someone, we send them an email and they don't answer for four days. And I mean, I'm guilty of this. Like, I try to work the book without judgment. Like, but they are these things. We have a. You know, I wrote a couple chapters even just on presence and distraction and that our presence builds people. Um, it's a. Again, it goes back to parenting. But I can think of all kinds of times when my kids would be trying to tell me things and I was doing something else, you know, or, um, we. I explore some research, uh, peer reviewed. Peer reviewed research on the impact of just having a cell phone on the table when you're having a conversation. Similarly, even if it's face down, it's like drawing cognitive load from your brain because you're. You're wondering what that, like what might be happening on your phone. And so all these things like, how am I if I'm in a conversation, 100% present with you. And something like that builds rather than the diminishment of saying, yeah, I'm listening to you, but I've got something more important going on as well over here, so I'm kind of listening to you. So it's, you know, from something as nuanced as that to um, you know, our facial expressions when someone shares something with, uh, us. I think there's so many ways it's like the message of all that could be that it's a burden a little bit. And it is like, in a sense, leadership is a burden. It's a responsibility, and it's a burden because you do have this power. Um, so it can be tiring to explore all that, but, uh, I think it's worth it. And ultimately for myself, what I try to share is that building the habit and truly I excite this, uh, 20 plus million people have read the book Atomic Habits. And I, I share a little bit from that book by James Clear, because I think you can take what he suggests in there and turn this into a habit that becomes a little natural that, that you just do these things and you're constantly thinking about, am I making this person, how am I making this person feel?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right. And, um, you know, before that Atomic Habits was built, there was another book called Power of Habit by Charles Duhegg that I thought was really, you know, powerful for, for me in building habits. And when I talk about, when mentioned distraction, it kind of like rang a bell with me because I, I used to, uh, when I was first into management leadership, I was, you know, I'm in tech, so I had all these monitors. I had all this things that you distracted me. And when one on one, whenever we had a one on one, someone come into my office and they would be sitting here and I would want to focus on them, but I had to look past my monitor to do that and I couldn't do it. So now if you come into my office, I don't have any monitors. I have a laptop and that's it. And the screen on my laptop is my only monitor. I don't have multiple monitors. And when someone comes in, I can just shut the laptop and then we can have our conversation. And I'm not going to get distracted because I know, I know I'm too weak. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to drift over and see what that email that just came up is, you know, whatever, you know, but if I can just shut that or move that out of the way to where it's not in front of me, I'm not going to see it. And that's a habit that I've just kind of had to build over time. Uh, and I think just having those habits in place, that kind of guide you to making sure that you are present and you are there in the moment and not totally distracted. Because you're right, if they're telling me something important and I'm over here Looking underneath email. How, how does that make them feel? Makes them feel like they, they're not important. They're less important than this email I just got

Speaker C: for sure. And, uh, I love. That's a great example. Like, just, you're building it into your environment and you've thought about the things that actually don't make you a bad person. They're just like, hey, this is. These monitors are in my way. I need to do something about this. And it, it does. Like, that's the, that's the argument we make is like, it's never, it's never a neutral interaction. Like, it might only be like a tick in this direction, but if I'm. They sort of think I'm paying attention to this other thing. It's not like, poor me, and they're going to walk out there like, he's a jerk. But there's just a subtle subconscious, like, message and everything we're doing.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's diminishing them in the fact that they think they're, they're less important than what they should feel like. I should be building them up by showing you that I'm giving you my intention. I scheduled this meeting. It's important. And yeah, so, absolutely. I think that's a super, um, important thing. And building those habits is really, really important to have, you know, whatever the habit is, whether it's, you know, having one on ones or checking in with people, or like you said, responding to a text message. You know, because you're right. I know when I send a message to someone and they don't respond for a little while, I'm thinking, oh, man, did I, did I upset them? Did I say something? Should I not sent this thing? You know, and you get into this panic mode because your mind always goes to the negative, like you said. You know, all the studies show you go to that negative place, um, and then they reply back like, oh, I was in a meeting, I left my phone in my desk. Like, oh, phew,

Speaker C: yeah, 100%. Yep. And yeah, and then again, going back to what we've already talked about. But when you're the leader, that stuff is outsized. Yeah,

Speaker B: yeah, absolutely. It's so much more important, you know, and I've been lucky. I've had, um, you know, a lot of really good bosses and good leaders out there that have kind of showed me the way. You know, I've had some bad ones that, you know, uh, I'm thankful for that because that showed me what not to do in some cases. Um, but yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, what are some successes that you've seen through your other books as far as, like, helping people, um, and how. How this can kind of play into that too?

Speaker C: Yeah, that's great. I, uh, was a good example. I was just bumped into a cadet again. A cadet go back to West Point that I'd taught years ago, who's now. He's probably 40 years old now. I'd become the VP of Sales for a, uh. A consumer products company. And he was talking about the previous book that Matt and Kate and I wrote was called Permission to Speak Freely.

Speaker B: And.

Speaker C: And we sort of blend them together because the central premise of that book is that when you're the leader, the people you lead should be able to say anything to you. Uh, and we go in into why that is and how you create that environment. But one of the principles we talk about in creating that environment is to dignify every try. Uh, so when you're the leader and people have an idea, I think this connects right. To building or diminishing. And even if you, uh, kind of initially think the idea is crazy, like, just sit with it for a second, dignify the fact they're trying to share. Because if you shut them down, they won't share again.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: So we go into some of that stuff and. And Eric had been. He'd been talking about how when he first got this job, someone, uh, got on the phone and started talking about how they needed to have a partnership with. I think it was like, Dr. Pepper. And this is like a small company. And Eric in his mind is going, okay, like, you know, we. We got 40 people here. Uh, I don't think we need to start with trying to, uh, partner up with one of the biggest soda companies in the world. But he stopped himself and he literally said to himself, dignify the try. And so he backed up and he asked a question. Instead of kind of diminishing, actually the idea if you blend them together. And ultimately, like John, I think it's six to nine months later they have a partnership with Dr. Pepper. And so,

Speaker B: uh,

Speaker C: he was like, man, if I hadn't thought that. So you talk about, uh, whether it's my book or other books or whatever, this process of taking in some good information, reflecting on it, and then leading intentionally, um, with whatever it might be, I think these things can be really helpful. So I love that combo of just sort of. I see our. Our previous book is like, as a leader, the environment you create for the way people can speak to you. And then this book is really, the way that you communicate with them, um, you know, and layer in all that is this idea that as leaders, we're responsible for a mission. So one thing we did with the book is it is, it's a lot about how we communicate, but it's also about our expectations, um, of excellence, because we want to, we want to win games. If you're a coach, you want to, you want to reach the objectives. If you're leading a company, you want to grow, you want to hit this mission, you want to be the best. Um, I'm all in on, like, winning and being competitive and being excellent. So we layer that in and talk about that's really what the book gets to, is how do you do both? How do you hold people accountable, uh, while building them at the same time?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think that's super important. And, you know, I love the fact that you mentioned that, you know, being able to listen to an idea, not just shutting it down. Because, you know, like I said before, I've had some good bosses and some bad bosses. And, uh, I can think of a really good boss that I had. Mike, um, Coleman. He was the CIO when I was a young engineer, had no leadership or management experience at all. And I was walking by him and I had an idea of the way I thought we should do something with some of our systems. And so I said, hey, Mike, I, uh, have this idea. And he says, I'm really busy. I'm running to a meeting right now. Uh, let's do lunch. And he sent me an invite for lunch. And he said I wanted to hear the idea. He's like, because I think it's important to listen to everybody. And now, I mean, I was in a sea of 100 plus engineers there that, you know, he doesn't have time to do this for everybody. But he chose that someone went out of their way to say they had an idea. He wanted to hear it out. And was my idea good? No, it really wasn't. We didn't do it. But he listened thoughtfully and intently. And then the next time I met, management position came up. Guess what? He, you know, I was able to get it, you know, promoted into that slot, which was great. Maybe it had nothing to do with this conversation, but, you know, I feel like, you know, I took the courage of listening, uh, of saying something with a fear if he would have rejected me right then, I would have never came forward with another idea. Yeah, I would have shut down and said, no, not worth it. But he gave me that opportunity, even though it didn't work out. He gave me the opportunity. And I've learned from that. Like, you know, when someone gives me, um, and, you know, has an idea, let me sit down and listen to it. You know, we may or may not do it, but hey, let me give them 100 attention to go through this idea because it could turn out to be super successful.

Speaker C: I love that story. I love everything about it. I mean, your idea wasn't even about the idea because you said it didn't fly.

Speaker B: As

Speaker C: you're telling this story, I can almost picture that. You can picture where you were, like, when you. When he said, hey, like, I got a meeting. So it's really cool how much that impacts you.

Speaker B: Yeah. And how many times, how much easier would have been for him just to say, I've got a meeting, hit me up later. And then I probably wouldn't have, because I would have been like, no. But he took the time to actually schedule the later.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because I wouldn't. I would have thought that was his nice way of rejecting me. So I'm just gonna say no.

Speaker C: That's a phenomenal blend of, like, both things in just terms of. Yeah, he's dignifying your try. He's encouraging you. He's building you at the same time, Like, I want to hear just that. Like, you know, he asked about what things build. Just. I want to hear you. But, you know, I bet when you got that invitation for lunch, you just felt valued. Like,

Speaker B: yeah, 100%.

Speaker C: He did it. Yeah. It's. So that's great. That's a great story.

Speaker B: Yeah. Whereas it would have diminished me if you just would have rejected me right there and said, hey, I don't have time for this, then obviously you don't have time for me or my idea, so I'll just go back to,

Speaker C: ah,

Speaker B: you know, patching some servers and move along. So

Speaker C: I love the story. It validates to, um. Tried to write, you know, the book. And I know m. I'm not just coming back to it from a salesy perspective, clearly. Like, I think it. I think it, uh, tried to write it in the, like, so it just could help people reflect. Because I. I don't love the idea that there are experts out there who have all the answers. Like, I'm not you and you're not me. And. And we're all, you know, introverts, extroverts, men, women. We come from different places in the world. Like, we all lead differently. Like, and so what that did for just listening to your story, because, like, I could Never have thought of like an example that's, that's that great because I hadn't heard the story before, but it is, it really encapsulates. It's really cool.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, um, what I love about books like this is that you can kind of, it codifies the things that, um, I've seen, happen and experienced, you know, and now I have a way to kind of verbalize it or like, couldn't really, you know, put that into words without having to spend, you know, a long time telling the story. It's a lot easier to say a building and diminishing. And I think that's, that's really important. Um,

Speaker C: for sure. I mean, we have a four box grid in the book because almost like you write a book like this, you almost need a four box grid. And it talks about builders and cheerleaders and people if they check it out, will see it and drivers. And I'm not big on labels or archetypes or those sorts of grid because I just don't think we're ever in a box like that. But it is really what it is. Exactly what you just said. Uh, just a reflective tool to say, hey, this is stuff I kind of understand and this helps me think more clearly about it.

Speaker B: If there's one thing that someone that's listening to this could do today to become more of a builder and less of a diminisher, what is that one thing that you would recommend?

Speaker C: Boy, I know it right off the bat, but it's a tough one. So it's not an easy answer, but it's a simple answer. It starts with how we think. It absolutely starts with how we think. If you've got someone who, um, just kind of bugs you or you don't believe in them and we address that in the book. What happens if you just don't believe in somebody? But, uh, our words flow from like what's going on inside our brain. You know, that that interaction you had with your boss comes from somewhere that like something he believes and that he believed about you. And then he goes and gets it, gets it done and sends you that invite because all because of how he thinks. So it's really, uh. And we talk about this in the book and it goes back to Atomic Habits and another book, um, I use from a guy named Craig Groeschel. But I, I think that to be real about the answer, because I don't think this isn't an easy thing. Like it's not easy to change the way we interact or even to just to Revise the way we interact and get better. Uh, it really starts with what are the thoughts that are going through my head about the people I lead, and then those are manifesting itself and what comes out of my mouth. So I don't think you can. You know, there might be a reverse process where you work so long, like a fake it till you make it type thing, but I think people can intuit that you're faking it. So it really has to come from, um, from a place of thinking. And I don't want to be moralistic about it because it's not my intent to tell people how to be. But. But, uh, if. If you don't believe that kind of people deserve to feel confident, capable and valued, it's going to be tough to show up in this way.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think you're right. I think. I think the way you think is super important. And, you know, clearing out those thoughts in your head and. And trying to put yourself in other people's perspective. I know empathy is one of the things that a lot of people talk about. That's something that I struggle with. It's really hard to do, but it's an intentional thing you have to do, like, you know, to be a good leader, you have about how you're coming off to other people and how they're receiving you. Uh, you know, because I could think that I'm saying something, just, you know, I'm trying to be, you know, short with my words and quick, but in reality, I'm becoming blunt and mean and cruel, you know, because I don't see it from their perspective. So trying to put yourself in their shoes every time and changing the way you think, I agree with you. That's super important. It's probably the number one thing for sure.

Speaker C: Yeah, we. It takes a level of humility, for sure. And we. When I'd gone back to West Point, I taught there from 2003 to 2008. So when I went back, it was about 15 years later. And they had added. In the core leadership course, they'd added a lesson on humility. And, uh, the humility actually is an academically researched concept in different ways. And we had this acronym, and I had put it in order so it spelled salt. But two of the principles at the beginning of the end were self awareness, like everything you're talking about. And then at the end the T was teachability. And I think that to. To do this, to think about how you think and how you're impacting other people, you are going to do it wrong. No matter how hard you try, you're going to get it wrong. Or they're going to perceive, even if your intention was good, that it was, that you kind of stung them with your words. And so, um, you got to be teachable in that perspective.

Speaker B: Yeah. 100. I think that's great. Um, Doug, this has been a fun conversation. Um, and you know, I think, I think your book's gonna be very helpful for other leaders out there trying to grow and become better. Better leaders. How can someone connect with you online? Pick up a copy of it?

Speaker C: Yeah, so the copies are on Amazon right now. The simplest place to get it, it's 11.99. All the proceeds from the book, all of them, like, are going to Tunnel the Towers foundation, which is, uh, supports veterans both by paying off the mortgages of Gold Star families and um, helping disabled veterans who are veterans, first line, first responders, uh, help them get mortgages in houses. Really great organization that's connected to Larry who I mentioned at the outset. He's now the VP of marketing and uh, for Tunnel the Towers. But I say all that because I just kind of want to be unencumbered by self interest as we. I believe in this book so much and its capacity to help people and have better relationships and make others feel confident, capable and valued. So Amazon for 11.99. Best place to get it. We also have our website, buildingyourdiminishing.com where you can download a free copy of the intro. We have a builder coach tool actually on there that's totally free that you can practice some conversations and stuff like that. So those are the best, best places.

Speaker B: Awesome. I'll put that in the show notes too@geekleader.com so people can go there and click through. Uh, Doug, thanks so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.

Speaker C: John, super fun. Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: Hope you enjoyed the show. Please go to a geekleader.com to learn more about what this guest is up to, click on their links and connect with them online. I would also greatly appreciate it if you could leave me a rating and review in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. Make sure you've subscribed if you haven't already. And if you feel so inclined, you can leave me a tip by going to keycluder.com tip.

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