Commercial Real Estate With Joe Cerretani

LeeAnn Cerretani: This is your home, your market, your move. And this is the Serratani team's podcast on real estate. Good morning. Welcome to your home, your market, your move with the Serratani team. And we have some special guests today, right, Jenna?

Joe Cerretani: That's correct.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So I'm Leanne Saratani. I, um, am the lead of the Serratani team. And Jenna Goulart is here. She is one of our top, not agent, top notch agents. Um, and we have Joe Seritani, who runs the commercial sector of our team. Um, and this is Joe's first debut on the podcast. I'm so excited to have you here, honey. And then we have a new member of our team.

Joe Cerretani: Keep it professional, okay?

LeeAnn Cerretani: Okay, I will be a good girl. Um, and we have Kristin Campbell, who is our new cape, uh, agent and we're really excited to have her here.

Kristin Campbell: Thank you.

LeeAnn Cerretani: She's a member of our team and working out of our sandwich office. Um, so we're really excited. So today we are going to talk mostly about commercial real estate, right, Jo?

Joe Cerretani: Sure.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Um, we have some great things, um, to talk about, I think in terms of if you're an investor, um, it's not just if you're buying, um, commercial space for a business, but also we work with a lot of investors who are looking for strip malls or multifamily or, you know, commercial spaces. Um, if you're more than four units, you are a commercial space. Um, so why don't we talk about market, um, and investment trends right now, um, where smart money is going in 2026.

Joe Cerretani: Where smart money is going. Okay, so, um, a lot of the markets I work in are your secondary markets. So, um, the primary markets are based out of Boston. That's where a lot of your money is. Um, the secondary markets. The secondary markets are more of your, uh, kind of single proprietor partnership investors that will go out and look at properties that they can, you know, put some money into, you know, turn it around and get some tenants in there. So, um, that's typically the market I work in.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Is that up right now? Is it down? Is it. Where is that strong?

Joe Cerretani: There's a lot of, there's a lot of demand. There's not a lot of supply.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm.

Joe Cerretani: Unfortunately. Sounds like residential, you know.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Yes, residential, everything's low.

Joe Cerretani: Your best investors are looking for diamond in the rough type thing, which do

LeeAnn Cerretani: they even exist right now in this market? It's tough.

Joe Cerretani: It's tough. And so in the market right now, I have a lot of leases, um, I have a couple of listings, but everyone's looking for that sweet spot, which is 2500, 5000, 10,000 square feet where they can buy it.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm.

Joe Cerretani: Um, either use it themselves, subdivide it, and then lease out the other spaces. So that's your sweet spot right now.

LeeAnn Cerretani: And that's really hard to find.

Joe Cerretani: And it is hard to find.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So do you recommend to, to buyers that are looking for these types of spaces to maybe look for something a little larger and then subdivide it? I mean, uh, you have to think outside of the box because if you keep waiting and waiting, years tick by and you're not gaining any equity, you're, you're not making any money. Your money might be sitting in a money market fund or, but you're not making as much money as you could in purchasing real estate. So do you recommend to your buyers who are looking for this type of commercial space to maybe look for something a little bigger?

Joe Cerretani: I do, but a lot of the times that's a money barrier. So when you get bigger than 10,000 square feet, you're looking at a bigger sale.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm.

Joe Cerretani: And so you got to bring more money to the table. So that's the sweet spot because you

LeeAnn Cerretani: look at, it's manageable.

Joe Cerretani: Depending on the location, the access, what it is, you're looking at a $5 million or less investment. So once you get up above $5 million, there's a lot fewer buyers out there.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Okay.

Joe Cerretani: That are able to swing that.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So with your sellers, because I know you've had, um, a few really large commercial spaces that were listed, um, and they sat for a while and so the owners of those properties, were you able to get them to maybe reduce that footprint or divide it and maybe sell it or lease it to multiple purchases or tenants? So then you're moving in the market and then as people grow their business, then they might be able to buy something larger if they need that.

Joe Cerretani: That was a topic of discussion. Um, unfortunately, in those two scenarios that I'm thinking that you're thinking of.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right, right.

Joe Cerretani: Um, they're in industrial zones and they had some other barriers. So in an industrial zone you're looking at minimum 12 to 15 foot ceiling height. And in those two spaces, unfortunately we had 9 and a half, 10ft. So when you're looking at industrial, you're looking at storage or a flex space. And a flex space. When I say a flex space, I mean office in the front, warehouse in the back, distribution, light manufacturing, things like that. When the ceiling heights are lower than 12ft, you're restricted and they're used to racking to go up that high.

LeeAnn Cerretani: You actually raise a really good point when you mentioned zoning. So could you give us a little bit of a rundown on the types of zoning that you see in the commercial space? Because you have industrial and then you have, I don't even know like what you have.

Joe Cerretani: So this typically when you're looking at a town or a city, there's various zones. So you get your residential zones, you got your business zones.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Business. Right.

Joe Cerretani: You have your industrial zones. So business zones can vary, um, based on use. So let's, let's take a town like Mansfield for instance. We have um, two business zones downtown. One's more dense than the other and it's focused on downtown business.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm.

Joe Cerretani: So you have no setbacks off the street. It's right up on the street. And you got street parking, things like that, mixed use. So you got a nice, um, you get a lot of housing, but it's all usually on the second and, and multi use buildings.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So you have like retail or a restaurant on the bottom and apartments for rent up top. That's a multi use. And then when you talk about setbacks, setbacks is defined by how many feet from the road you need to be.

Joe Cerretani: Right, right when I. Yeah, right off the road. So and then your setbacks on your, on your sides are usually pretty tight as well because you want a more dense, um, development in your downtown.

LeeAnn Cerretani: In your downtown right now as you get out.

Joe Cerretani: And then you'll have like Mansfield Crossing where you have, you know, big box store like a Kohl's and a L.L. bean and a Best Buy kind of anchoring that. And then you get all the little side retail and spaces in there. Restaurants, um, and that, that's a whole different. You got tons of parking.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right.

Joe Cerretani: And you're looking at, you know, higher lease rates.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right? Absolutely.

Joe Cerretani: In a spot like that. But you also got higher visibility. You get a lot of, you get a lot of traffic counts.

LeeAnn Cerretani: What is the, what is the average price per square foot? Let's say in a downtown area. It ranges probably based on town. Right.

Joe Cerretani: Because it depends on the town. If the town's got a, like if you're talking downtown.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm.

Joe Cerretani: So if the town has a good mix of commercial uses in its downtown. So it's bringing people in in the morning.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm.

Joe Cerretani: Do breakfast, maybe have a post office there. You're gonna go mail your stuff, go get your hair done or.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm. Go shopping.

Joe Cerretani: Go shopping. And then you're gonna have maybe lunch there. Then you got afternoon shops and Then you get dinner, restaurants and all that. So the good downtowns are going to have those multi uses in there where you're, you're in and out and you get a lot of foot traffic and someone's going in. Not just thing, they're going to go do a couple of things. They're going to park for a little bit.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So when I think about a downtown and I think of uh, let's say um, when you're looking at Falmouth for example. Right. Their downtown has a M. I mean it's huge. Right. It has everything, but it's almost a drive through as well. So even if you need to get from one side to the other, most people will. They can use the back roads to avoid traffic, but they might just drive through the downtown as they're getting from point A to point B. Not all downtowns are set up like that. Sometimes they're off the beaten path and you have to like go out of your way to get to the downtown. Um, if you're not near a highway or a route like a Route 106 or Route 28, things like that. And do you feel that that affects the price per square foot if it's not like a thorough way? I guess is.

Joe Cerretani: Yeah. I mean you have to have the traffic counts. So a lot of. Okay, so let's, let's look at Falmouth. Right. So you got a lot of. It's ours obviously. Very tourist. A lot of tourism going on in the summertime.

LeeAnn Cerretani: But it's a year round town.

Joe Cerretani: Year round town. So you're going to get that all year round. So people are going to go stay in a hotel or a VRBO and they're going to go downtown, they're going to go have lunch, they're going to go shopping.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right.

Joe Cerretani: So it's all about. I used, I always like to call it eyeballs. So if you get a lot of eyeballs on your business, that's gonna bring more customers.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Hm.

Joe Cerretani: If it is off the beaten path. Sure. And that's when you look at different towns. You know, you have your downtown, you have like a Mansfield crossing, you have uh, or you have your other areas that are not necessarily. A lot of traffic counts and so then your lease rates drop.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right. Okay.

Joe Cerretani: So it's. But it's, you know, it's a little give and take. So downtown parking can be a challenge.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right, Right.

Kristin Campbell: Especially on the Cape and Falmouth, it's a challenge.

Joe Cerretani: So. But it's. There's usually ample parking to, to make

LeeAnn Cerretani: it happen because you're kind of coming in and out. Like people don't stay there all day. It's not like they're getting on the train and the car is going to sit there all day. They're coming in to do what they want to do. Might be there now and then they leave. Frees up a space. So it's all very come and go.

Joe Cerretani: It's all give and take. I mean do you want all your parking spaces taken? Yes. And oftentimes someone has to walk a block and a half to get to the place they want to go.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Oh, God forbid.

Joe Cerretani: I know.

LeeAnn Cerretani: And so God forbid we walk a little bit.

Kristin Campbell: Oh, New England weather.

LeeAnn Cerretani: I know this is true. And the winter's not fun. M Right, right. So let me shift the conversation a little bit to when I think about investment and I think about the investors I work with. We often have the conversation multifamily or multi use space, like what do I want to invest in? And I feel like lately I think my opinion and for uh, what it's worth, because I'm not a commercial realtor so I want you to speak to this commercial seems to be harder to fill like when you have a multi use place. So you can. We are in such a housing crisis right now and I know the housing crisis is going to take a turn as our baby boomers age out. We're going to have a lot more houses in the next few years that will um, kind of free up that and hopefully long term planning. They take that into consideration. But do you find that to be um. I'm just gonna close this door.

Kristin Campbell: Yeah. She's sorry. I'm like, is there a ghost?

LeeAnn Cerretani: It's the wind. What just happened?

Joe Cerretani: Yeah, like who's coming in?

Kristin Campbell: That's a really good question about commercial space. Ever since COVID and people not wanting to go back to offices and it's um, it's definitely a stick. It's a thing. It's a thing. I feel like they need to recreate theirselves, the owners of those properties in that space to make it happen. Because it's either that or it's just going to sit stagnant.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right. So when you think about multifamily versus a commercial space and the multi use piece, it seems like it's harder or it takes longer to fill that first level of the multi use space. But uh, multi families aren't even available for my investors to buy. Like they're really hard to find. So what would be your recommendation when you pose that question?

Joe Cerretani: So it's A tough question. I mean, right now, housing, there's such a demand for housing that it's the hot item. And now you kind of reel that back a little bit. Zoning has a lot to do with it. Right. So you can't just put housing in anywhere.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So explain that a little bit. What does that mean? I mean, I know what you mean.

Joe Cerretani: To kind of go back what we just talked about. You have your industrial, your business and your residential zones. Obviously residential. You can put housing in there.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right.

Joe Cerretani: In your industrial zones. Very seldom can you do housing. There are occasions.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Where is one of those occasions? Um, with affordable housing, would a town have to allow affordable housing development to go into an industrial zone?

Joe Cerretani: They don't have to allow it.

LeeAnn Cerretani: They don't.

Joe Cerretani: Sometimes they have what's called an overlay zone that will be like, okay, so for instance, the town I'm working in now, they have an industrial zone adjacent to their train station.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm.

Joe Cerretani: And recently have put in with the MBTA communities guidelines that just was, was, uh, a couple of years ago was. Yeah, that was through the state of Massachusetts.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right.

Joe Cerretani: So any, any towns, uh, that are on the mbta, um, lines or adjacent to those communities have been challenged to put together zoning around the train station. That's a higher density by.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right, right.

Joe Cerretani: So 30 units per acre by. Right. Um, and then, uh, you know, so you can't, you can't impose any restrictions on it. So a lot of towns have put overlay zones over some of these industrial zones. So it's a, it's a dual use.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm. Right.

Joe Cerretani: So you know, it's a way of getting around it. It's a way to approve that, that, you know, obligation.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right.

Joe Cerretani: That those towns have. I call it an obligation because, you know, some of the towns are still fighting it.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right, right. You know, so when you think so, I know you have the three types of zoning, but within each of those types there's different setback rules, you know, things like that too. Right. So if you have a residential sometimes in the zone, uh, sometimes they're called Ah, R40, meaning like it has to be a 40,000 square foot lot. Right. So that's just under an acre. So if you have residential. Does the business zones and the industrial zones also have those limitations depending where they are in a particular town? Okay.

Joe Cerretani: So like I said, for your downtown areas usually have very few setbacks, small setbacks, because you want it to be a dense, you know, compact area where people can go and go to multiple places fairly quickly. And then you have, uh, outlying zones that um, you know, have plazas, you know, where you have some drive throughs going on where you can, there's plenty of parking. Um, the businesses are not really walkable so much. Um, but obviously the setbacks are bigger there. And then you have, you know, you have another zone like a shopping plaza.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm.

Joe Cerretani: You know, obviously you have clusters of retail where the setbacks are tight. Their own one building, but you know, those are the things. And then industrial, you have your bigger setbacks, more open space, more parking.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Okay, um, that makes sense.

Joe Cerretani: So you know, it's funny, every town's a little different. So I consider myself kind of a zoning geek.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Yeah.

Joe Cerretani: You know, I'm on a planning board. So I, you know, I dig deep into it. I understand zoning really well. But every town is different.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right.

Joe Cerretani: And all of the different language is different. Like this town, we'll call it an R1, an R3, this town will call it an R40.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right.

Joe Cerretani: An R10, you know, it depends.

LeeAnn Cerretani: I like that the R40, R10 to kind of. Because it gives you information in the name.

Kristin Campbell: Right.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So I like that.

Joe Cerretani: So but, but I've come across ones where they call it that and that's not that.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Well then I don't like that. So you have to, that's not very helpful.

Joe Cerretani: You know, uh, you think they do,

LeeAnn Cerretani: they do it just to make you crazy.

Joe Cerretani: Everyone has their own philosophy. So you know, you gotta, you gotta go into the town right into the bylaws and figure it out.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right, Absolutely.

Joe Cerretani: And that's the other thing. A lot of towns use different technology. So this, they have uh, this system.

LeeAnn Cerretani: There's a lot of different components to each town. And if you're not familiar with those towns, it's you know, got to do a lot of homework when you start working in those towns. I actually have um, a developer I'm working with and um, in a town that I'm not familiar with. And I know I've come to you for some help because it's a big learning curve because you need to take the time and learn what's going on there in that town and go down to that town hall and talk with them. Most of the time I find town hall personnel very friendly and very helpful. Very rarely do I come along a person. Maybe we all have bad days, um, but they're usually very helpful. Um, getting back to the question I had about multifamily versus a multi use building for an investor, it sounds like there isn't an easy answer because there's very little available in Both realms.

Joe Cerretani: It's. It's a tough. It's a tough one. I mean, you got to do your homework. You gotta. It's almost like finding a unicorn here and there.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Yeah, I think you're right.

Joe Cerretani: It's not that hard. But, um, you know, people are looking and you're not buying real estate. You're not the only one out there looking for it. You have active agents looking for their buyers as we are. Um, so, you know, you got to kind of be on your.

LeeAnn Cerretani: And it's still a seller's market, so they're getting top dollar if they're pricing it correctly, which. That's a whole different conversation. But, um, so one thing I wanted to ask you as we move through this conversation. Um, retail, with all of the online stuff we have, Amazon, we have all these other retail. I mean, we get a package a day here. Um, with the family of four we have. So it's. Everyone's ordering their stuff and they don't have time to shop. Um, but I don't think retail is dead. I think it's taking on a new picture, like a new evolving way. So do you find that big box stores are still successful? I mean, I feel like every time I drive in a new town, I feel like, oh, that business isn't there anymore, or, you know, they've moved to a smaller location or, uh, what. What do you see on that front?

Joe Cerretani: So Amazon obviously took, you know, changed the whole climate. Right. I mean, it's just different. And then you had Covid.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm. Which then really kind of squashed on

Joe Cerretani: issues, kind of ramped things up and brought everyone digital. So people ordered online now. Now, having said that, you still have your retail in your. I want to call them big plazas where you have a couple of anchor tenants, maybe a grocery store or Walmart or something like that. So those are your most successful ones, where you're going to have the traffic going in there and then you're going to get all those. I don't want to call them impulse buys, but build.

LeeAnn Cerretani: They are. Absolutely. That's why they went like, like Legacy Place and Mashpee Commons. Like they have, like, you go there and you're there for like to get your Starbucks coffee. Right. Because everyone's addicted to Starbucks.

Kristin Campbell: Um, and then you see like lemon or. Right, maybe.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Yeah.

Joe Cerretani: And then you get your tourist areas too. So that's a. That's a different element as well. So, yeah, your. Your touristy areas that are going to draw the foot traffic and they're going to drive Obviously impulse buys. So you're on your vacation, you're going to buy things.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Well, I was at Hingham Derby street, um, this week, and they used to have a store there that was just for bathing suits. Right. And we're gonna be going on a vacation. So I'm like, I'll just pop in. They're gone. Like, that store's gone now. Um, there were, like, five new stores there that I haven't even heard of before Aritzia. And it was like, I was like, wow, this is really weird. So I just don't know if it's just eliminating the stores that just didn't do well and they're gonna. It's just interesting how you see that if they're just not getting enough traffic,

Joe Cerretani: it's just like everything else. I mean, if you're not, um, on your game, it's going to be hard.

LeeAnn Cerretani: You need to do demand studies, too, I think. Right.

Kristin Campbell: Well, I feel like retail space is honestly, they have to evolve and change. Like, take the native collection, for example. It's not so much about the store shopping, it's about an experience. So they have the level 99. They have bowling, they have karaoke. It's going not like, say, take your kids or for the day or girls night out. So it's not even about the shopping because I feel like these big spaces, even South Shore Plaza and Braintree, they weren't getting the traffic since COVID I mean, look at Braintree. Look at Nordstrom's. Amazing case study on Nordstrom's M. Their customer service is impeccable. And they pivoted. They just closed. There is not a Nordstrom's to be found near us because they went to an online presence because honestly, they don't need to pay the money to be an anchor store in those spaces. They'll just do an online presence and they'll more than supplement their business. So I feel like malls are. They're like a dying breed.

LeeAnn Cerretani: They are a dying breed.

Kristin Campbell: They need to recreate themselves.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Although I have to say, living in New England, like the Wrentham Outlets is such a. Can be a great place.

Kristin Campbell: Right.

LeeAnn Cerretani: But when it's cold out and it's windy, like those. Those tunnels are like. Yeah. Like, it's, like, too cold.

Kristin Campbell: Right.

LeeAnn Cerretani: I don't want to go shopping there.

Joe Cerretani: The models that are most successful now are like, um, Legacy Place, Dedham. Um, and you got Market, um, Square up in Linfield.

Kristin Campbell: Yes.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Derby Square.

Joe Cerretani: Derby Street.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Derby Street. Yeah.

Joe Cerretani: Those are the most. Those are the models right now that seem to be the most successful, the

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mashpee Commons, they do really well.

Joe Cerretani: They have to. But they have to carry the anchor stores. The anchor stores drive.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right, the whole development. Yes.

Joe Cerretani: Um, I was just reading the other day that, um, Natick, I think, um, Neiman Marcus went out.

LeeAnn Cerretani: They're gone.

Joe Cerretani: And so the leases on all the stores surrounding Neiman Marcus were good leases when Neiman and Marcus went out of there. And, uh, they're talking about bringing in Burlington Coat Factory or something like that. So it's like, it's like they're all saying they all want to renegotiate their leases now because. Wait a minute, you know, we're not getting the Neiman Marcus customers. We don't pay the same rent we were paying.

Kristin Campbell: Right.

Joe Cerretani: So it's, it's, it's, it's a very, you know, you have times, you have to.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Really. So are we. Do you feel like we're in an industrial space boom because of all the warehouse need, like with the Amazons and um, you know, and just the logistical effects of needing all the trucks for delivery and all of that? Do you feel like we're like in a new industrial boom for warehouses?

Joe Cerretani: We. I want to say yes. However, the most. There's a lot of these big warehouses and distribution centers that have gone in recently that are sitting vacant and those right now the biggest vacancy rates in Massachusetts.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Wow.

Joe Cerretani: So you get about, are they too

LeeAnn Cerretani: small for an Amazon? Is that why? Or they're too old or it's just,

Joe Cerretani: it was too much too fast. And so Amazon came into the market and they, they gobbled up all these leases.

Kristin Campbell: They buy land too, don't they? They buy land.

Joe Cerretani: Well, yeah, real estate, I've seen that a couple of times. But mostly leases. And they've gone in and they have these long term leases and then they said, wait a minute, now our footprint's too big. And so they pulled back and now they still have all these leases there. And you see these vacant buildings, but they're not actually vacant. There's still a five to ten year lease on that property. So a lot of landlords are saying, all right, well, I'm in no rush to fill this space because I have seven more years on this lease.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right, right.

Joe Cerretani: And I don't have to. And so people are thinking, oh, you know, there's a lot of vacancies. There are, but there aren't as many as people you'd think.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Do you think there's particular areas, um, towns or areas that are really great commercial investment locations?

Joe Cerretani: Sure. Like Everything else. If you have um, a town with good access, if you good access to the main highways, if you're good access to the main cities. M. Like Boston, Providence, um, if you're uh, have good amenities in that town.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Hm.

Joe Cerretani: Um, if you have a town that's run well.

Kristin Campbell: Yeah.

Joe Cerretani: You have good schools, you got, you know, even for commercial, that's, that affects commercial. So people want to be where the people are in. Mhm. Commercial and,

LeeAnn Cerretani: and easy access to the highway.

Joe Cerretani: Easy access.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So Route 24, Route 3, Route 95, Route 495. Like the corners and intersections, Route 128, like you want to be at like an intersection. So you have two major routes to access. Right. You don't want just one.

Joe Cerretani: Sure.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right. Because it takes trains.

Joe Cerretani: You know, if you got that infrastructure of the infrastructure's important. I mean that's driving a lot of it, you know.

LeeAnn Cerretani: You know, the mbta uh, stretched the terrain into New Bedford and that is up and running. And I was talking with someone down in that area earlier this weekend on the phone because they're looking at property and a development down there and they're saying that the people that live there are not really using the train as much as they thought they would. Do you think it's just an evolving piece? First people have to get the jobs in Boston and have to get the education into that area that you know, to use the train to get to the better jobs. Do you think it's more about that or do you think it was a waste to put the train down into New Bedford?

Joe Cerretani: I think it's a little of both. Um, people aren't used to it. It's going to take a while for them to change their habits to do that, get comfortable.

LeeAnn Cerretani: It's expensive to own a car, pay your rent, you know, go to school while you're working full time. Um, you know, I feel like if you can eliminate one of your major expenses and that is say your vehicle and now you can live closer to the train, get your job in Boston. You'll get paid more by living in the city, like working in the city and then come out to your less expensive rent in New Bedford.

Kristin Campbell: Kind of a double edged sword though, because you do bring up a good point. But New Bedford is still somewhat, I wouldn't call it rural, but it's kind of, it's very city city but on the outskirts, like you need a car. What happens if they want to go to the Cape?

LeeAnn Cerretani: Yeah.

Kristin Campbell: What happens if they want to go into. Well, the train probably goes into Providence.

LeeAnn Cerretani: I'm imagining it does. So I don't know about that for sure, but I do know they were cut. You said the right thing. They were cut off for a long time.

Kristin Campbell: Right.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So I feel like by bringing the train there, it's giving them access for sure. Or more options. Right. So I'm not saying that they can eliminate the car, but, uh, you know, you can walk to a grocery store. It is very city there. It depends on where you are In New Bedford, though. I mean, there's some beautiful areas.

Joe Cerretani: Yeah, there really are.

Kristin Campbell: But Cottonwood Park.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Yeah.

Kristin Campbell: Pretty. Okay, I have a question. It could be a loaded question.

Joe Cerretani: Sure, go ahead.

Kristin Campbell: Because I'm on the Cape. Do you feel like there's a stigma when it comes to building on the Cape in terms of commercial property? Like, um.

Joe Cerretani: That's a good question. Um, there's not a lot. Well, you just lost Cape Cod potato chips. They just left. Um, and that was a big company.

Kristin Campbell: Um, didn't know that.

Joe Cerretani: Yeah, yeah, they just left. I think they went down south or something.

Kristin Campbell: Right.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Um, so south, like south Southern. United States.

Joe Cerretani: United States. Oh, I'm not sure where exactly, but it's a loss. Um, I know they just, they just left. Um, the Cape is funny. Um, it's obviously not a lot of big industrial uses, not a lot of manufacturing. Maybe some light manufacturing. Obviously there's a lot of retail tourism,

LeeAnn Cerretani: but they don't have the infrastructure for sewer, for example. Right.

Joe Cerretani: Some towns, um, don't like. They do in Hyannis.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Yes.

Joe Cerretani: Downtown Falmouth. And you know, some of the cities do have it, but not where you're

LeeAnn Cerretani: going to build it.

Joe Cerretani: And it can be tough sometimes, depending on your use.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right.

Kristin Campbell: I feel like in Sandwich, like for example, they had a space called the Golden Triangle. It was, I don't know, the square footage. I don't know particulars, but notoriously, Sandwich is known for their high taxes. So offsetting that with some commercial business would be a great business plan. Yet it was really difficult to get town backing on any of it. It was brought to the table multiple times, different years, and it still sits vacant.

Joe Cerretani: Sure.

Kristin Campbell: Yeah. So I feel like that's so unfortunate. Towns have to be unfortunate.

Joe Cerretani: A little more open minded in cases like that. So. All right, so your, your percentage of commercial to residential is very low.

Kristin Campbell: Very low. Very low.

Joe Cerretani: So, um, what happens is you go to a town meeting and people will vote in, let's raise taxes. And then it's easy to raise taxes on commercial because they're not a voting base. Right. Ah, so um, what will happen is that. So then it's an adverse effect on bringing in commercial.

Kristin Campbell: Who wants.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Why would you raise it?

Joe Cerretani: So a lot of the aggressive towns are getting involved in what's called a TIF program, which is a tax intermediate incremental financing program. So they'll give them, um, I don't give them a deal on the taxes.

Kristin Campbell: Right.

Joe Cerretani: So they'll dial back some of their taxes just to bring in um, a company that's going to bring in big property taxes, personal taxes and jobs.

Kristin Campbell: Right.

Joe Cerretani: So they're going to have. And what people don't realize is there's a lot of ancillary um, benefits to bringing in all those people into your town. Right. So they're going to have lunch there, they're going to shop there, you know, they're going to see things they had normally seen and yeah. Maybe like it and buy a home there. Sure. That's um, so what you're hoping it's, it's an important thing. It's like I always say, um, when I sit on the planning board, we want to do developments that are, that are responsible. Right. So you don't want to just have throw up apartment buildings. Right?

Kristin Campbell: Right.

Joe Cerretani: Because you just got robots walking in and out. You want to have something with mixed use. You get some retail, you get some restaurants, some shopping.

Kristin Campbell: Magical Commons.

Joe Cerretani: Sure.

Kristin Campbell: They do a great job, I think, in my opinion.

LeeAnn Cerretani: But there's no apartments there.

Kristin Campbell: There are. They're built in beautifully. It's very aesthetically noticed. They are neat commercial space. They actually just got zoned for um, a 55 and older. I believe that's slated for, I want to say 20, 28.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Nice.

Kristin Campbell: Uh, trader Joe's coming in.

LeeAnn Cerretani: That's exciting. I love that exciting gem. Keep calling this exciting stuff.

Kristin Campbell: Uh, so yeah, but I think they do a beautiful job of, you know, not going six stories up. Although there's probably zoning regulations on that. But making it uh, complement the landscape. Uh, because I mean, you know, Kickpod's not like a, like a Mansfield. It's not like a Boston. But they have an incredible housing issue.

Joe Cerretani: Sure.

LeeAnn Cerretani: It's all over the city.

Kristin Campbell: Where is a nice.

Joe Cerretani: So, so I guess that's what if the town's willing to get aggressive. A lot of these towns right now are hiring economic development directors. So they'll, they'll work with the town manager, the mayor or whatever it is and they'll work um, on bringing in business in the town.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Mhm.

Joe Cerretani: And, and bringing in revenue. I mean with that is revenue. Right.

Kristin Campbell: Of Course.

Joe Cerretani: So I think every town is a little tapped right now. Um, costs are up. And it's funny, it's because, you know, inflation was up big time. It's, it's up again. You know, a lot of the things that are happening in the world like tariffs and all that and the war in Iran, it's all, it's driving up costs. So. Right. It's, it's tough on us as homeowners and residents to towns, but it's also tough on towns. And it, it's funny, towns react usually a year or two after.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Right.

Joe Cerretani: All that happens because their budgets are in already. They're approved and they're already going and they, they already have things going. So, so it's usually delayed a year or two. That's why you're seeing all these override requests for overrides right now in all the towns. Because they're dealing with the higher prices. They have to budget ahead of time.

Kristin Campbell: Interesting. You always see those big cranes in Boston. It's all those high rises with maybe a little commercial space on the bottom. But um, stories and stories and stories.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Seaport, Right.

Joe Cerretani: Ah.

Kristin Campbell: That seems like that's all they're building these days. Garnering 5k for a one bedroom a month.

LeeAnn Cerretani: I know, it's crazy. It's crazy. So do you find the offices in Boston to kind of be. Are they converting into different space because of all the office buildings that, or do you feel like they're coming back there?

Joe Cerretani: What's happening in Boston is that, uh, there's a lot of new buildings going in. And so all these new buildings down at the Seaport, um, all, all the people in Post Office Square are saying, oh, look at that nice new building. I'm going to go move my office to there. And so Post Office Square has got a lot of vacancies right now. And so what's happening is they're trying to figure out how they can convert

LeeAnn Cerretani: it to a new building.

Kristin Campbell: Reinvent it into a new space?

Joe Cerretani: No, into housing.

Kristin Campbell: Oh yeah.

Joe Cerretani: Rather than office space.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So Interesting.

Joe Cerretani: That's some of the things they're looking at right now. I don't know.

LeeAnn Cerretani: But do you have the infrastructure there for housing?

Joe Cerretani: Like when you think big lift to take these buildings and to add bathrooms into all units because they don't have the chases, the vertical chases that allow for a conversion of all these high rise buildings. So it makes it very difficult and very costly.

LeeAnn Cerretani: Yeah, that's crazy. And then when you think about the internal infrastructure, but you also think about the external. So when you go down Comm Ave, where BU is, and it's so many people live down there. They have their grocery stores, they have their post offices, they have their CVS's like on every other corner. So they have all the infrastructure there. Post Office Square doesn't have that, doesn't have the grocery stores. It doesn't have the. You have to walk quite a bit to get to that.

Kristin Campbell: You do.

Joe Cerretani: Sure.

LeeAnn Cerretani: So that would all have to be redeveloped as well because you need to take care of. You want to attract the people to live there, right?

Kristin Campbell: Yeah.

Joe Cerretani: Uh, uh. It all goes hand in hand, right?

LeeAnn Cerretani: Absolutely. Well, this has been awesome. I feel like we could talk. I wasn't expecting this segment to be so exciting talking about commercial. So I liked it. It was great. So thank you for your time today. Joining. It's nice to have a completed Seritani team here. Tina lynch will be joining us on the next segment. So she'll be here shortly. So thank you so much. So this has been your home, your market, your move. Join us at the next segment.

Kristin Campbell: Excellent.