165 - Turning a business around from an ‘at risk’ centre with poor reputation to a 5 star award winning centre

Champ Consultants is an award winning independent firm of highly experienced qualified accountants and tax advisors based in Caterham, providing a fully comprehensive range of accountancy and tax services. If you would like simple but creative answers to your tax problems, called Champ Consultants your business partner on one double eight three three four nine three hundred. Hello and welcome to another show of your Business Hour with me Chantale. And today we are joined in the studio with Fiona.

Good morning, Fiona, good morning. So. Fiona is the hands on proprietor of Kingsmead, a question center which she runs with her family. She has owned well as a family, they've owned King'smead for nearly fourteen years.

During this time they have turned the business around from a small, at risk center with poor reputation to a busy, five star award winning center. She has a passion and innate love of horses, which wants to share with anyone who wants to listen. So I think there's lots of listeners. She writes blogs and articles, many of which feature on their website, which is www dot Kingsmead Horses dot co dot uk and are very proud to be involved with the ABRs Futures Project.

Six centers nationwide are looking at how they can improve the lives of horses working in riding schools, developing small changes that will mean big benefits. She says, running Kingsmead is a lifestyle. Her horses are her priority and they always seem to know when she's planning a day off. I bet they hate you when you're going on a holiday or something like that, don't They absolutely so welcome Fiona.

Obviously this is a family business, so tell us everything about how it all started and how it can continued to be in your family. How it all began. It began about twenty ten and when my husband was made redundant, I was made redundant, and we had children who wanted to work with us, and we wanted to work with animals. So we looked around and decided to take on an a questionrians center.

It was going to be an equine assisted learning center, a sort of therapeutic type center, but somehow we ended up with Kingsmeat And to say, I mean, it's been an absolute life changing. Two of my three children stayed with us, the other one was already working abroad, so he's in horses as well, but he's over in Australia. But Chris and Clary, my children, have stuck with us and they helped us grow and there are a central part of our teaching team and every thing. So that's how we got there.

It was hard work. So they started in ten twenty ten. But what about yourself or your husband? Did you ever have any horsing experience?

Have you ever had a horsey life or anything like that? I have. So I actually started riding in nineteen sixty four, so. We were just about born, by the way, and.

I was down in Dunpton Green outside of Seven Oaks, and I was lucky to find a riding school there, Jeane Foster, and she gave she inspired me and I was only with her for about four years, but in that time she gave me an absolute love but also really solid grounding. I was scared of her, but I admire her to this day and so I started riding. Then my father and his wisdom, when I was sort of eight years old, decided to buy me an unbroken, unridden two year old which he brought in extra market and literally arrived and we hadn't got anything other than the field, and that started my journey and it's just been amazing ever since.

When I started, I had this feel for horses. I didn't know what it was. I just used to communicate with them. It sounds weird, but they're not talking to me, but where there's a full on conversation.

And I've just started to get a feel for horses. Didn't really know what it was, didn't understand it. People used to bring me their quirky ponies, the ones which weren't working. And.

I just went with my gut. And interestingly, now that's what we're coming back around to people and now interested. I was a bit offbeat then, a bit sort of not to be considered to be necessarily wise. But times have moved on definitely.

And what about your husband. Has he ever been in horses or was he literally thrown into it in twenty ten? He was thrown into We moved in in twenty twelve, but it was twenty ten we started this idea. He probably had an opportunity to say no, but he missed that opportunity and has been especially if.

He was outnumbered by your two adult children as well. Yeah, he didn't stand a chance and he still. I mean, I think we've managed to get him on a horse about three times. Oh okay, so it doesn't ride, he doesn't.

Ride at all. Oh wow. But he does have a lovely he knows the horses, he can see, you know, he feels his way through it again, which is so important. So tell us about the center, because obviously when you got it it was a small at risk center with a poor reputation.

And as I've said, now, it's a busy, five star award winning center. So what does the center do and how did you get it to transfer over to be like that? When we took it over, I remember walking in and we inherited some of the horses, and sadly we actually had to have a couple of them put down the next day. They were in such poor health, and the ones which weren't in mental poor health were sorry.

The ones which weren't in physical poor health, which was easy to see, were just very distressed and unhappy. So I think it was at that point I realized that I'd taken on something very very different to what I was taking off. I think it was going to run a riding school. And then suddenly I run in the center where and I asked my team yesterday what they think and they said, it's where you find yourself.

Kingsmead is somewhere where our clients, our horses, our staff can actually be who they are. We don't try and mold people. We just work with them as they are and it's a place of healing. Really.

Wow, So you started running the business. You were both made redundance. Obviously you were both working, and you started running the business. As you said in twenty twelve, is there anything you wish you knew when you started that you might know now.

That run equestrian business, the business with horses meant I also was working with people and the challenge, the uphill learning curve of managing a team of staff I hate calling them staff, but running my team that we weren't prepared for that. I didn't realize what that entailed. Obviously I did on an intellectual level, but actually it was a real real shock as how I need to support them as well. And I suppose what sort of corporate world do you come from?

Is it one that was very corporately or was it you had to learn from scratch. Luckily, prior to that, I've always been teaching something. You know, I've always had a job which is involved teaching or people learning from me. And I'd spent twenty years with the NCT, and I was one of their senior co trainers and one of their senior tutors.

And that education, that understanding people, understanding education, because that basically I done. My degree in my forties in how people learn was directly transferable. So I was lucky in the sense that I brought these skills. And I think somehow that our success is partly down to the fact that I have brought in a very human side into the horses.

A lot of riding schools are more sort of focusing on the horses and not I don't know, it's somehow it's walked more together. Yeah, it's more all one, isn't it really? Yeah? And they say, don't they You should never Well, I suppose it's more in the acting world, but it can be in any world, really, isn't it.

The hardest people to work with are with children and with animals. And you've just done both, haven't you really, With the NCT and the horses. We've just gone from the children to the animals. So if you could do one, you can do the other absolutely in running the business and your business life in general, because I would imagine having on a question center.

It's not a nine to five job. It's not I go home at five o'clock on a Friday and then I'll turn up on a Monday. It is a seven day a week, very much a full time job. So what do you find as one of the most challenging aspects in running your business life.

Is the fact that it is twenty four to seven. I never know when I may need to come out onto the yard. Normally I try and wrap up the day. It's a sort of sensible end and started.

It's a sensible some of the team will be around there, but I as soon as there is a problem, I will be out there, and I could be out there for hours, and so even things like Christmas Day, I work Christmas Day. I wouldn't expect not to. So it's very very difficult getting time off. And unfortunately the horses, as you said, they know when I'm not there, and you can guarantee somebody will do something that requires at least a phone call that they're getting better.

It's like having toddlers absolutely. Do, isn't it really? Because toddlers you can drag along with you. You can't really take a horse along with you anyway, not really turn up at a restaurant with a horse, just park it outside.

And what about rewarding aspects? You must have loads of rewarding aspects. Is there anything that stands out to you? Oh, there are loads.

I mean, whether it be a horse or whether it's a person. Most of the people or horses that come in contact with doing okay, they're getting on and we make their life a little bit better. And then there's somewhere we make a little bit of a difference. We start to really make people feel better.

And then occasionally you realize that you've made such a big difference in somebody's life you just didn't know at the time, and have actually turned somebody's life around. And to see that, whether it's a horse or whether it is a young person or an older adult, it's amazing and it's very very moving. Wow. So the sorts of people that so you do lessons at the stables is at the question center?

Is that right as well? Yes, So we will teach riding, we will teach horsemanship, we'll teach sort of equine management. So there's so many different strands to it, but anything about a horse. If you want to come and learn, we can tell you something about horses.

And my key interest is in equine behavior and how the horses are relating to each other and how they're relating to us. But we've got coaches who will teach people how to just ride or yeah, it's all things horse. Do you do the jumping as well? Yes?

Oh cool. That always looks more exciting. A bit more dangerous. If we like exciting, we don't like too exciting.

There's a little bit of a line. Exactly where is the center? Then it's up in Hamsey Green, so Warlingham and people will hardly know we're there down Kingswood Lane. So if anyone knows kings would random auts understead it sort of goes across.

We're just down there in Hamsey Green. So when I introduced you, one of the things I also said is that you're very proud to be involved with the ab RS Futures project. And now I said that, and as I said, I thought to myself, I've got no idea what I've just said. But what is the A b R S Futures Project?

What is ABRs stamp. First of all, right, the a b r S is the Association for British Riding Schools and recently, if we go back to a few years, people have started to question the use of horses, the social license to operate. Should we be using and I use that word carefully, should we be using horses for our own pleasure? We should we be riding them at all?

So there has been a lot of questions on the social license to operate and for those of us who work with horses and no horses, no that horses do get huge about out of the job that they do. But there's no point me saying that the horses are okay. We've got to be able to prove to the outside world, to the people who don't know horses, that the horses are okay. So the AVRs, along with the British of the Questioning Association, decided to do this project.

It's funded nationally and it's a project where we actually completely revisit how we're working with the horses and making sure essentially that any horse who is working with us, and then this will be rolled out to riding scrolls across the country that any horse who is working with us has a life worth living. So we're looking at it extremely focusing on the horse. It's equi centric and we are wanting to roll this out. And as I said at the beginning in my seventies, in the seventies, this was considered horses don't have emotions, Horses don't have feelings.

So the fact that I was wanting to get to the heart of the horse now, even when I started back in twenty twelve, I was looked on as a slightly fringe, slightly what's this woman talking about? So it's so nice that just twelve thirteen years on, people are actually looking at what we do and recognizing what we do is good for the horse. And so let's talk about that. Because as I'm not a horsey person, I have written horses in my life only because no I was on holiday.

I did some horse riding lessons and whatever else. I don't own a horse. I wouldn't call myself a horsey person. I don't know how to ride a horse day.

But any animal don't really talk to you, do they at the end of the day. I mean, they don't really have a conversation like you or I are having a conversation or like you and your child might have a conversation Mommy, I've got a tummy eate today, I can't go to school, or I don't feel very well today. How does that work with animals then, because if you're trying to work out that horses have these feelings and whatever else, how do you assess that, because that must be quite difficult.

It is quite difficult, And I say, part of it is innate. You know, I couldn't possibly well, I could probably if I tried, but I don't speak any other language other than horse, and so that's partly learned. You know. They communicate with each other through body language.

So horses are very very social animals. And if you sit back and watch horses, they've got an amazing communication with each other and they also have a social structure. And what's happened in the last fifteen years is science has caught up with that and we can actually know, for example, there's stress science in horses. There's relaxed signs and horses, you know, how they hold their head, how they are, their ears, their nose, the are So I look at minute detail and I can walk onto a yard or our yard, and I can see a horse and say they're not comfortable, and they can be, you know, one hundred meters from me, but I can see because I had that eye for that, and I've trusted my gut.

Now it's great that I'm getting science to back it, but when I first started doing this, there was no science. I had to go out on a limb slightly. Yeah, And so there must be other lots of other people in the equestrian world who are like you, who understand the horse, see the horse, and whatever ever else. And do you all sort of work together in this sort of project or is that just very much your sort.

Of It's very interesting and as in I mean, it's probably easier to go down to parenting. I think people understand parenting. So if you look in the parenting world, you've got your very very strict parents, You've got your parents who you know, your authoritarian parent, and then you've got your very permissive parents. It's all on a continuum, and everyone will find their place on that continuum and they will possibly move along it depending on their experience with their own children or with grandchildren or things like that.

So it's a moving line. And it's exactly the same in the equestrian world. We have people who are very wedded to their old style training methods, people who are less reluctant to change to look at it from a different angle. And then you've got the sort of movement who have gone to the far extreme on the other side, where the horse will tell them everything and it will all be a little bit of a utopia.

But again that doesn't necessarily make the horses feel safe. And it's interesting when I've rescued horses, I've had them from both ends of the spectrum. I really, so it's not like one is more like the horses don't end up in different ways compared to wherever they might be on that spectrum, as like a child might be on a parent's spectrum. You will get probably trends.

You will probably get to see, you know, a bit like again with the child, and you know, the parent who's the child who's been parented by a very very strict parent will probably be quite rebellious. Yeah, the child who's been paired, you know, might be feel more insecure or what whatever. So you do see trends with the horses, but they all bring an issue the horse. If the horse isn't cared for or in the way that they would be cared for.

And it's not about me, It's about me being allowing them to be a horse. I have to work with what the horseness or what we're calling the telos of a horse, what makes a horse a horse? I can't change that. What I have to do is understand it.

And are the rest of your team like that, your children and the rest of the team who work with you. Are they in tuned with horses in the same way that you are, or is it very much? You are the person that does it. And then they might say to you that horse is not quite there today.

Can you go and have a look at I don't know whatever that horse there is. They all got names, but yeah, so yes, I know, so we are. I'm having to bring them on board and that can be quite interesting. Obviously my children are well, I say obviously they are.

I couldn't be doing it if they weren't. So my children are very in tune to horses. My son is probably more traditional in the way that he would look after horses. He's more gone down the sort of typical structure.

My daughter is a little bit she's gone down that structure, but she's a little bit more. I get what you're saying. So it's actually quite creates quite a strong and I think the fact that we are sort of sitting center stage but we are doing something different. But I do have to feel quite strong, and I guess I attract people who like the way we do things.

Yeah, because also the way you talk about I mean, you're very passionate about horses, and I'm sure that everybody who works with you is passionate. And I don't think you could work with animals or with children personally if you didn't have that major passion, because it is twenty four seven job, and so you have to have that passion and we can definitely see that in you. And it's interesting that you must draw those sorts of people who have that passion for horses as well, because you have to in that industry, but also who have that are curious about that intuitiveness with the horses as well, because that's the way that you are.

If you were much more likely, say stricter, traditional horsey person, then for you to come along and work with that strict horsey person, you'd be like, ang, God a minute, we're having disagreements here because that horse is not very happy doing that, and that strict person would go, no, well, the horse is going to do it, and that's what do you know what I mean? And I think along the way as we've sort of worked out who we are. And you know, when I started taking when I took over, I didn't know that my way was actually going to be such a new way.

I didn't realize that that's what I was embarking on. And I did have some lovely sort of people coming in and helping me manage the place, but we weren't necessarily fully aligned because they wanted to go down the care and obviously care matters, but with care, it's like what we feed them, what we bed them on, the amount of exercise they get. Where the welfare, which I'm drawn to and we're coming round to, is how the horse feels about that. I could give the horse the smartest posh it, well I couldn't, but I'd love to building give the horse a smart, beautiful stable, really interesting bed.

But what he wants is a scratch from his friend. He wants to be out there, he wants to be interacting. And I've had to really look at some of the things a very simple thing. For example, I used to get frustrated and so did all the managers that all the hay was outside the door, so it has just been spilled over the stable door or the threshold like stable doors, so all the horses have chains or bars so that they don't actually have a door in front of them.

They have just something to stop them going out. Interesting, if we take it down, they often stand as if it were still there, and then they bring the hay over the door. They're the ones who drop it over there, not the team. And then I started thinking why are they doing this?

Why are we ending up with this, and then realizing that horses to feel safe eating, they like to be able to eat within the sight of another horse. So what the horses were doing was bringing the hay to outside the stable so they could put their head down and eat their hay and look across and see their friend areing the same, and look over there and seeing their friend are in the same. So now instead of worrying about the amount of hay outside the stable door, I let that happen.

So those were sort of changes that we make which make the horse so. Much more and it just looks on your website and it says you have three herds, So how many horses do you actually have on site? We have. It fluctuates slightly, but about fifty.

And is there a reason why you keep them into three smaller herds rather than one big herd. They all have different needs. So the horses get on, so we let try and let them choose their friends. We know we can understand their personality, and then what we do is introduce them carefully, make sure that they have a sort of similar lifestyle.

So might go out at night, come in by day. Some stay in the stables more and prefer to go out occasionally. Well, we go out daily, but they don't like being out for so long. They start complaining if they've been left out in the rain, where others like, let me out there.

And so yes, it's about understanding them and just meeting their needs very differently. And horses are not cheap, so you said you've got so I'm amazed. But are they all owned by the Question Center or are they some of these other people's horses that are stable there, or they are there some rescues? How does it work?

And how do you fund it? Very good question and it's probably not a very good business to be and it's definitely not a very big good business. So going back to your question, most of the horses are owned by me. We have a couple which are either co owned or owned by somebody else.

But because I have alternative way of looking and caring for them, anyone who's bringing a horse to us needs to know that I will be putting the horse first and not necessarily their needs. So we had somebody wanted a lovely lady, but she always wanted to feed her horse, and I was saying, your horse has been fed, but we need to feed him when the others have been fed. We can't. We can't keep his food back because you want to give it to him.

It's just not what he's in his interest. So sometimes we struggle. So if we have anyone who does have a horse with us, it needs to be they really need to understand us and the way we're working, and that's what they're buying into, not just having a horse with us. But so that's why I own most of them buying horses since COVID, they their price went crazy because everyone wanted a horse in COVID.

Really, yeah, and we're still mopping that up and still you know, it was not good for horses, not good for all horses. And so yeah, we now it's very, very difficult to fund a horse. You know, we can be looking at sort of ten fifteen thousand to buy a good horse, and we don't have that sort of money. So this is where I come in.

And I like rescuing them. So I will have a couple of rescue centers I work with and I'll take in their slightly quirky, broken, not functioning horses and turn them around. And it's such a pleasure to do that, such a pleasure to. Do when you say they're broken and they need attention.

Is it purely giving them some attention and some care and or is there also some training out in the yard. And I guess there's more to it than that, but yeah, as a non harsey person. But is there a formula? No?

Or is it based on the personality of the horse that comes in. Yeah, So it's based on the personality of the horse and what has gone before. So what has that horse experienced? What have they learned?

Because every interaction with the human, the horse is learning something and they will either be learning good or bad. And you know I was saying earlier about some of the horses who've had a very very soft life. They don't have enough structure, so they just walk over people. But if you tell your horse you'd make all the decisions, they will step forward and they will make a decision that they're not.

The nature of the horse won't go, Oh, you decide, you decide. It's like if you're not deciding, I will. So every time two horses come together, every time a horse and a human come together, there is a dialogue that often the humans don't even know is happening. Which going right?

Who's in charge here? And if the horse gets a sense that he's in charge, he will take that position. She doesn't necessarily want it, it's not a hierarchical thing, but he will want to do that. And then that horse doesn't understand when the next person comes along and says no.

So it's about building a social connection with the horse, making them actually feel that they can respond to us, work with us, feel comfortable. I create a safe spot where the horses feel okay, she tells me to do it, I'll do it. I don't know why, And just simple things. I take a lot of people out hacking, which is riding in reopen and I love training people out there.

Again, most riding schools will take you for a hack, but won't actually teach you how to hack. And we do it all from the horse's behavior. So how does the horse respond? Things like when the horse looks over at something, something scary is happening in the fields over there, the horse will look at it.

And the rider's response to that look, because that's how horses communicate with each other. If they look with both ears, they are saying, you know, what do you want me to do about that? Is it safe? What you want me to do?

Most people answer, oh, I don't know. So the horse then has that sort of indecision where if the horse looks at something and I will say to him, just walk on, just go, and the horse goes, oh fine, I can do that. I've had my instruction. So it's very subtle that there's that sort of dialogue is going on all the time.

Wow, talk about it. Patos now Cham Consultants is an award winning independent firm of highly experienced qualified accountants and tax advisors based in cater providing a fully comprehensive range of accountancy and tax services. If you would like simple but creative answers to your te problems, called Champ Consultants your business partner on one double eight three three four ninety three hundred. And welcome back to your business hour with me Chantelle and Fiona from Kingsmead Horses.

So I was looking through your website and you do some seasonal events, So tell us about some events that you do and what else you do at the center. So our day is as diverse as our horses and our week and months, and so we have if we start with regular lessons, we have lessons throughout the week, private lessons, lessons for complete beginner, somebody who's never met a horse, and then we have right through to experienced riders. We also do riding experiences, so if you don't know whether it's for you, you can come along and we'll take you for a ride up Kingswood bridle Path and just the experience being out to feel the movement of the horses and just enjoy that.

We also do a lot with riding for the disabled. It's changing its name, but currently it is the RDA and we work with people, young people, older people with physical and emotional needs. We've have a lot of children with autism. Autism I would often say a lot of horses are slightly autistic.

So actually there's a real synergy when working with people with autism. And we've had young people who've actually come to us selectively mute, not talking, and within an hour of being with the horses, they're talking to the horse. It's absolutely amazing to see. And we've got some older people.

We've got older man with downs who comes in and he's learning to ride. We've got some profoundly disabled children from Redgate School who come in and they go for a ride with their horses. So we do a lot with that, but we also work with people who just want to be around the horses and want to learn, so riding lessons, we also introduce some of the behavioral stuff we would teach people just to be around the horse. Not everyone wants to ride a horse, So you don't have to ride.

If you come to us, you can come and you can volunteer. You can sweep the yard, you can groom the horses, you can just be in their company, which itself is very very healing and it's all that some people want. So there's no pressure. We're not a competitive yard, so there's never that.

You know, we do run little competitions, but it's not about competing. It's not about being better, it's about being the best we can be in that situation. We do a lot of hacking, which is to say, riding in the open, and we also do things like at Christmas, we have a Christmas Grotto, so you can ride a horse into our woods. We've got an acre of Kingswood and we take the children in there and they meet Father Christmas.

We do Easter trails in there. We've got blue bell walks, so if you want to come and experience the blue bells, come and we'll take you for a walk around the blue bells on the horseback. So literally for anyone who just wants at one touch. We do holiday clubs, We do everything, and we don't We rarely say no unless it would be dangerous for you or the horse.

It seems very much nowadays that many horses a lot of the time they're doing a more therapeutic role, whereas we go back just over one hundred years ago and they were our main source of transports. It's very utilitarian, I guess, and this is. The horse, you know, So they have been are you know, they've been part of our security for years, whether in the military or in the police. They have served a role as as you say, transport, farming, you know they are.

But they're very adaptive. They're involved in sport. But now, as you say that, the biggest role that the horses have is probably therapeutic. They're helping people, working with people, and I think they get a lot out of that.

You know, the fact that horses have aligned themselves with man. I don't believe it's a mistake. I think the horses have worked out that there is something good about being associated with man. And I know that you mentioned that you do do you do have like volunteer in places as well, don't you?

And that we're going to make a little plea right now, aren't we. For anybody who's got February half term, which I think is week beginning the sixteenth of February, Is that. Right, Yes, it's the week beginning of sixteenth of February. One of our biggest challenges is actually managing the environment.

I hear the weather forecast and it's like it has a direct impact on me. So we need to modify one of our arenas so that the horses and riders have a much nicer environment to work in, or a cleaner and you know, just more more pleasant. And I am therefore looking for some labor. I need anybody.

You don't have to like horses, you don't even have to won't have to touch a horse, but we're needing to know. We've got some mud stubs that we need to move. We've got just a lot of stuff, fencing anything, so we're desperately looking for some help. Materials will be great, sand and I have very low ambitions me sand and wood.

The diamonds sand and would cheap day presence. We need somebody who could drive digger ideally, but we'd love to welcome perhaps some particularly young men. We don't get enough young men in the industry. But to come and do something really meaningful for a week would be help us out immensely.

And then in return you can come and enjoy being with the horses and just seeing what they bring. To us brilliant and also what satisfaction they'll give to you as well, because volunteering in itself brings a lot of satisfaction to the person he does it. So it's great to do something like that. So as well as the volunteering in half time on this particular project, you have volunteers throughout the year at other times.

So absolutely so, somebody may like to volunteer to be a sidewalker, you know, with our disabled riders, sometimes they need somebody to walk alongside them to help lead the horses. Sometimes the horses benefit from just being groomed, having somebody come and sweep the yard, or if somebody wants to come and do a little bit of running maintenance. We literally there's so many jobs to be done there and we welcome volunteers. And you know, we've got one lady who's started with us.

She just walked onto the yard and now she's one of our most committed volunteers and she's completely deaf but has actually found her space and it's amazing. And she did say that when we had a fire alarm, we were the only place that she's ever been where actually somebody went and tapped her on the shoulder when the belle was going. So she feels very included. So we would welcome anybody.

And your volunteers. Are they generally just walk ins? Are they horsey people or are they duke of Edinburgh or what's the. Duke of Edinburgh.

We do do that is the only one who can do that. We also get quite a lot of volunteers coming, perhaps wanting to go on to work as a vet and wanting to get some re quest experience. But we also get people who some of our volunteers have you know, really high power jobs and they're coming just for an hour of. Distressing, distressing and just being with the horses.

So everything we if somebody is going to be hands on with the horses, we would either need to train them or they would need experience, because it's not fair on the horses that's to be teaching a volunteer. But we're happy to teach. Them very long. So let's get back to you, f the owner.

So we know that you've been working with horses a long time, and we know that horses were a form of transport and no one hundred and twenty years ago or whatever still very much today, like you say, with our armed forces or police force, everyone still you still see horses today? You can't. Okay, let me take this back hundred years ago when it was the form of transport and whatever else. There must have been other people like yourself, who talk to the horses, understand the horses, and know what the horses saying, because obviously we're not going to have a conversation like you and I are having a conversation.

But like you've said, you understand the horse. You understand when a horse is sick, or you understand how a horse like you said about the feeding of the horse and whatever else. So when you first thought this, that you thought this those many years ago, did you actually talk to people about it or was it very much? You just didn't say anything, and you just because I imagine some big burly man one hundred and twenty years ago saying, oh, that horse is not very well, and they go, how do you know that?

And he goes, oh, he told me. They probably look at him as if to say, I think you're a bit doo. Leally absolutely, no, I didn't tell anybody. I just did it and thought that everyone else did it.

Okay, you know, thought everyone else said exactly the exactly. And yeah, I just knew that there was something going on that horses were happy in my presence. And you just have to look at some of the films that you're out, you know, War Horse and the connection with Joey and I remember the horse's name and I can't remember. I can't remember, but there was the show that absolutely connection, and that would have been based on truth.

You know, you looked at the farmers and you know how they work their horses, but they're not going to tell you that they know when to work and when, just based on what the horse is saying. You've got black beauty and the story there, which is a little bit like the two ends of the continuum I was talking about, and then you know it was really cruelty versus you know, total acceptance, and so it all it's all there. You look at you know, with some racing far lap horse there, and it's always based on the horse and human connection, not necessarily on their success.

So there is all there. But yes, I mean I even when I took over Kingsmead and started saying this, I remember saying, oh, the horses don't feel or we were talking about the emotions. I was told, horses don't have emotions. We don't think of it like that.

So I sort of went back under my rocks slightly and had to think about how I could come out and explain this with confidence and That's really what the last twelve years have been about, is me being able to articulate and with confidence. And if people think I'm mad, I always say to people, you can't say me that say that the horses and I can't talk, because I understand them. So I always challenge them to prove to me that they can't. You know, I've just flipped it on its head and say, you know, I think the horses are communicating with me.

If you don't believe that, you prove it to me, and they can't. And you told us a wonderful story of air about how you went into a horse and saw a horse, So tell everyone about that story. Yeah, this was about twenty years ago now. And I walked onto a yard and literally as I walked past this horse, I turn.

I got a feeling that this horse was blind. And I spoke to the yard manager and said, this horse can't see. She went to, can't be silly. You know, he's jumping, he's out doing lessons, he's doing this and the other he's you know, fully functioning as a horse.

I said, but he can't see. There's something And they said, oh, okay, we'll have a look at it. And they got it investigated and trure enough. The horse was partially sighted and that was explaining They went on to find that that was explaining his behavior in the stable.

He was very, very defensive of his personal space. But by understanding that we could help the horse, or they could help the horse by just making sure that the leader was always on the correct side where he could see more. And we've got a couple of horses who are partially sighted at our yard, and we adapt just like you would for a blind person. Yeah, you make adaptations and it makes such a difference to them.

It's so amazing as well, and such beautiful stories. I love it. So, Fiona, is there a piece of advice or what would you recommend to somebody who's listening, who's thinking. I love what Fiona does.

I love my animals as well. I could start something like this. What would you recommendation be? So militia first off is don't do it.

However, however, follow follow your your gut. It's right. Approach it with humility because you don't know. Approach it with curiosity because there's so much to find out, and come at it with absolute passion and expect to put your whole life into it.

But the rewards are fantastic and it will change you as a person for the better, brilliant. And change your entire and be family committed. I imagine that you'd have to have your whole family behind you as well like you do have. Oh, I owe so much to my son and daughter because they've given up a lot to do it in a way, but they and I can see now that they're starting to get rewards the recognition for the sheer.

Yeah, I mean they have been amazing. Christ and Chloey have been absolutely amazing and Colin but he didn't have so much to say. Chris and Chloe have actually really made Kingsmead what it. Is brilliant, so full credit to them.

So we have actually come to the end of our chat. Thank you very much. It's been amazing, so I will repeat. The owner's website it is www dot King's Meadhorses dot co dot uk and on their On her website you can find out more about her riding school, her events, volunteering, loads and loads of stuff on there that you can find out.

You'll also find kingsmaid a question center on Facebook and they are kingsmaid a Question Center on Facebook. And on Instagram. They are Kingsmade Horses, so please do check them out. And as Fiona says, if you are free a couple of weeks time, I'm Inober February half term, then do tag along.

And if it's past February half term and you're listening to this because it's available on podcasts and you're thinking, oh, that's gone now, then I'm sure if you contact Fiona on her website or via Facebook or Instagram, she's more than happy to have you volunteer or help her with whatever else might be doing at that time. And links to Kingsmeaed's socials and to their website are on our social media as well as your business how so. Yeah, so you can check us out on your business hour and we are on Facebook and on Instagram your dot business hour and you can find this podcast your business hour wherever you get your podcasts from.

And yeah, and that's it from us. So that's it from us this week, and we will catch up with you again soon. And thank you very much, Fiona, thank you, thank you. Chamkin celtant As an award winning independent firm of highly experienced qualified accountants and tax advisors based in Cateram providing a fully comprehensive range of accountancy.

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