Lisa Clunie - Branding with Purpose, Psychology & Personality

Speaker A: You're listening to Wired for Success, the podcast for business owners, entrepreneurs and anyone who wants to do life on their terms. Hosted by Jamie Morgan, a business coach and entrepreneur who's been there, done it, and is now sharing the stories of those carving their own path. Because success isn't reserved for the chosen few. You were wired for it. So I'd like to introduce today's guest, which is Lisa Clooney of Thrive Studios. Tell me, Thrive Studios, what do you do?

Speaker B: So, I'm a brand and marketing consultancy, but I still do graphic design. I can't let go of that. Um, so we do all sorts. Everything from doing brand strategy to get them started right through to marketing, sort of putting a whole process together. We do websites, we do illustrations.

Speaker A: This new businesses, startups, or is this established companies trying to.

Speaker B: I've got two sides of the business, so I've got Thrive Studios, which has been going since 2012, and that has always been a design agency, really. Um, but as things have changed over the years, I get on. Um, I've always been into strategy and psychology and all that sort of side. I got more involved in the business side. So it was. How do people pick one. One brand against another? So it's a psychology, real challenge.

Speaker A: When you speak to a business owner, you say, well, who's your target customer?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And most of the time they just draw a blanket here and you're like,

Speaker B: well, they think everybody's their, their audience.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Anybody is there.

Speaker A: Uh, so how do you create a brand where everybody's your audience? Surely that's not something you can't.

Speaker B: You don't. And I go through loads and loads of, um, questions with them, find out where. And your brand is very much depending where you want to take your brand in the future. So if you want to stay as a cottage industry, you wouldn't. You would build a brand for.

Speaker A: Make it look homely and.

Speaker B: Yeah. And relax. Yeah. The atmosphere would be different. So. But then I can work with companies that want to sell a business. They've already got a brand, but they want to sell the business. So we try and build the brand up for selling so that it's done in a different way. And then you have people that want to develop and they want to go overseas, they want to be international. So we have to look at colors and things like that that are going to be international worth. Because if it's going to China, there is certain colors China don't like. So we. I have to know where they want to take that brand to have the Strategy.

Speaker A: So brand becomes part of a business plan as much as, you know, the outreach, the marketing, the advertising, um, you know, financial controls, who we recruit and all those kind of things. But most people probably don't think that way.

Speaker B: No, I mean, I get when, when I say I do branding, everybody thinks it's the logo, uh, the website and that's where they start. And they shouldn't start there. Uh, they should be looking at what they want to do with the business, where, why they've started that business. And then we can build a brand that's relevant and it's not about them, it's about the customer Y so it's got to attract the customers that they want to come into the business. It's not about them. Otherwise, if they do it for them or it's on trend at the time, it's going to be outdated really, really quickly and they're going to outgrow it and they're going to be back to the same position again.

Speaker A: So a few minutes ago we were talking about a few of the companies you started off in your early career. We talked about the oil and gas industries and the two big companies you worked for have got quite a defined brand to them. Really. That hasn't really changed a lot over the decades.

Speaker B: Well, I started a long time ago with bb, so you don't have to tell. Yeah, a long time ago. So they were still using the crest at the time. Um, then, then I went through the process and worked with the design agency that actually did it and it was like a green long.

Speaker A: Totem.

Speaker B: Yeah, totem. And they had still had the shield on. Um, and then I left there and got headhunted by Shell. But, um, then obviously they've amalgamated and now it's a flower.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, and that, that was a change in the business to have a more environmental approach to the business, wasn't it?

Speaker B: You know, with somebody else as well. So they wanted to get the two elements together.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I've also been involved where BP and Shell were working together at one time for like 25 years. Yeah, they had a mixed company, so there was a lot of things going on with that as well.

Speaker A: So you can have some very prescribed, um, brand guidelines for a business and you just have to work within that framework. But, but most companies don't start off that way, do they?

Speaker B: No, uh, but I.

Speaker A: That's one canvas.

Speaker B: So when I first take a company on and we're designing a logo or going through the whole process with them, they're always given a brand Guidelines and they vary from very simple one which might be ah, any eight pages to tell them the colors, the coding of the different colors. Because you've got.

Speaker A: That keeps things consistent through the letterheads, the sign writing.

Speaker B: Especially if they want to do it on digital way, it's got to be a different coding which is like our, what they call rgb. And then if it's printing it's cmyk. So you've got to give them all those codes and it's got those hex numbers.

Speaker A: People don't realize the slightest variation will change dramatically.

Speaker B: So you've got to keep to those numbers to get the right element of, to keep the consistency of that color.

Speaker A: It's quite interesting. I see various franchises over the years and the biggest argument franchisees always have, especially in small franchises, is they want their creativity or they want to put a spin on things and things like that. And the, the brand guidelines were there for a purpose.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So we talked a little bit about BP and Shell. Are there particular campaigns that you loved working on in those days?

Speaker B: Well, I was a, uh, Shell, I was a brand manager so I never got to travel or anything with, with Shell, but I was in charge of or got involved with like Formula One, um, and gas and bitumen were my, my three main areas that I got. So they were very vast. Um, and so they all had their own identity because, because even though it was Shell, they all had their own business, um, unit. So a lot of time I would get, sometimes I'd be doing some of the graphic design for them, but a lot of time I was hiring agencies to come in, so I dealt with a lot of the big agencies while I was in there. Um, but the manual at the time was absolutely so huge.

Speaker A: So you had to kind of know that inside out to kind of corral the agency in the direction that you wanted to.

Speaker B: And it's like the retail when, when they, they tweaked the colors slightly like they, nobody else would really notice it and they probably spent millions doing it. Um, but what they did do is when they were going to the retail shops and you'd have the, or like the, the petrol stations when the lights came on, sometimes the colors were wrong.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So they'd have to change all the lighting behind to make sure that that

Speaker A: was consistency through the round.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So it's very. Branding has always been there, but I would say now it's very different than it was in them days.

Speaker A: What was it like managing agencies back in those days?

Speaker B: We got wind and dined a Lot.

Speaker A: So it was good social life that went with the job. Social life.

Speaker B: Yeah. Christmas, very healthy. Um, because all of that's all stopped now. But, um.

Speaker A: So that. That even the agency industry has fragmented massively compared to, you know, 20 years ago.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because when I left, I had my two children, so I worked part time for Shell and then they closed the whole department, outsourced everything. So I went freelance. Um, because it. Even though I loved being a mum, I needed something for me as well. And I can't stop that creativity, you know, it's inbuilt in me. So I went freelance. So I worked in advertising agencies, but I could do it around my children. Um.

Speaker A: Choose a workload that suited you.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I'd do a project, I'd work for someone for so long, sometimes it was in London, sometimes it was local, round sort of Hampshire area. So. But that gave me. I never lost the ability.

Speaker A: Because you're still in touch with what's going on. Changing.

Speaker B: Because technology changed so fast in the 90s.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, 2000s, this single Google turned up.

Speaker B: Yeah, Google came up, Internet came out. Um, everything just exploded. So I was very lucky that I never stepped away from it. Because of a house.

Speaker A: You carry on learning on the job rather than.

Speaker B: Yeah, because, I mean, now you think of technology. Now every week there is something new coming out. This. You're constantly bombarded with it.

Speaker A: Going back to that kind of creativity. We just said a few moments ago about franchisees and wanting to put their little spin on things. We've handed everybody a set of tools, whether you go to a networking group and meet the specialists that used to form part of that team. You know, you meet the SEO guy, you meet the graphic designer, you meet the printer and everyone's got access to the raw tools. And, uh, on a computer now we've got Canva, we've got chat GPT and we can. How do you manage a brand when you've got all of these other influences that are just there to. To be played and toyed with?

Speaker B: But you see it, don't you? I mean, I can go through, like, looking. I mean, I'm, um, constantly looking on social media to see what's going on and webinars and God knows what. And it amazes me. I. There's no consistency. So that's the problem with Canva. Yeah. Is that they think, oh, I like that font. But it's nothing to do with, uh, look and feel. And a lot of the fonts, you can't. Because people scroll so fast they can't they can't read them, but they think it looks nice, it's trendy.

Speaker A: So, and everything, whether it's tick tock, whether it's Facebook, whether it's Canva, you, you see trends even in print. You know, you go back to the days of, um, Ogilvy and you know, the style of advertising was a defined style for its time and each kind of fad and fashion comes and goes.

Speaker B: But if you want to build a consistent brand that people are going to absolutely love and be loyal for a long, long time, then don't go for those.

Speaker A: That's a really interesting point you make about brand loyalty. The kind of creating raving fans for your business is, is a really difficult thing to do. And you know, uh, a friend of ours is a HR consultant and she was looking for a new job and we kind of went through this, this wish list of what she'd expect the company to have and um, light an area office and treated the staff this way. And we made this list of all the different things that kind of tick the boxes and then literally we went and searched on Google for companies that kind of had these qualities and the brand meant that actually this company's got all these qualities. Um, this is the kind of place it is to work. I'd like to go and work there. And that's not about a logo.

Speaker B: Yeah, but you see, that's it. People, you always, your logo is important because that's what people recognize. But actually now you, you know, you think of even McDonald's just soon do you see an arch, you don't see the full logo.

Speaker A: So what, which British brands or which brands that we see regularly would you say are really strong brands in the, at the moment?

Speaker B: Uh, at the moment we've got that high end. Well, they've changed the name. Yeah, but it's very clever getting you talking about, getting you talking about it.

Speaker A: Ah, have you seen the Heinz posters on the bus stops at the moment?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: No mention of Heinz at all. McDonald's are doing the same ones. So for people that haven't seen it, um, Heinz have got a series of campaigns, uh, for baked beans, for mayonnaise and things like that. And it just says it has to be. And then it's a picture of chips or. And you just, you've seen it so many times. Like Hoover. Yeah. We don't do the vacuuming at home, you know, can you bring the hoover?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that brand, that brand's probably disappeared. I've not seen it for 20 years. So other strong Brands that you, you think that um, are out there.

Speaker B: It's quite a lot. I mean you've got Brew Dog, you know, that's, that, that's a new brand.

Speaker A: That's a kind of 15, 20 year old brand.

Speaker B: Yeah, but that's new to the market. They've always kept to what their belief and they've had major problems obviously with COVID and things like that because they went into doing breweries, they went to hotels, hotels, pubs, you know, they set restaurants up and things like that and they lost a lot of money. But they've got so, so much loyalty with their uh.

Speaker A: You can buy shares in Brewdog as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, well they give shares, that's what they did through Covid to get the loyalty from the staff. Yeah, they actually gave them shares. So they're very ethical business as well. Very ethical business. But they, they talk about it like innocent smoothies, you know how they.

Speaker A: You must have read my mind because that was the next one I was

Speaker B: about to talk about, you know, innocent smoothies. I mean obviously they've been bought by Coca Cola now and things like that, but the actual messaging is exactly the same, um, and the way that they did it and I think that's it. Nowadays big established brands that have got a reputation, I've got the loyalties because of lights as sustainability or what they're about, what the, what people branding is all about, feeling, what emotion does it bring to you?

Speaker A: It's interesting that IBM used to have a, A, um, ethos behind IBM that uh, if you hired IBM for your project that they would put all of the resources of the business behind making that a success. And their tagline in the 90s was, you know, no one gets sacked for buying IBM.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's. When I talk to a lot of people it's like, do you know what? If that was your business, have you got the similar kind of commitment to your customers and to making things happen? Because if you were dead sir, uh, why would someone not buy from you even if you're more expensive? So branding can be very, very clever

Speaker B: and people don't always go on price.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: And I think that's it, that when they, it's like Apple, we all spend a fortune on Apple stuff. But actually the back end of Apple is actually made by Samsung or something like that now. So. But you still buy into the buying,

Speaker A: the unwrapping of your new iPhone, the smooth box, the feel of the aluminum that's polished and everything like that. Interesting, isn't it? You know, as a Child. My mum used to say to me that a reputation takes a lifetime to build and moments to lose.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: There's a certain gentleman that's been associated with the government in America and um, he's got quite a few brands under his belt and some of them have been struggling. Should we talk about uh, Elon Musk for a moment?

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: So the, he's got a new contender, uh, especially in the UK with BYD as a, as a new electric car manufacturer coming in from China and really damaging that Tesla brand through his political out statements and things like that. So what kind of advice would you, you be giving to people if you were sitting there as the brand manager, head in hands for Tesla at the end?

Speaker B: Well, the thing is, I mean I do a work personal branding as well.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because they're so linked and they're so entwined.

Speaker A: So politics at the moment is so divisive.

Speaker B: Very divisive and it's, well, it's toxic at the moment throughout the world. But people are looking, when they're looking for jobs or they're looking into a business, they do look at the CEO, what their values are. They, they go hunting on LinkedIn and things like that. So I do get involved very much in that sort of side as well.

Speaker A: What would you give in the way of adv to somebody that's looking to improve their personal brand?

Speaker B: It's building that trust. Be natural. You know, I know the word authentics everywhere but actually with AI and you've got all this technology out there at the moment and since COVID people are absolutely wanting that human factor.

Speaker A: We've, we've gone through that stage of Instagrammable. Oh, here's my avocado toast for breakfast and just finished my 20 mile run.

Speaker B: Don't believe that anymore. They don't want to be sold to. They want to know who you are, who's the person behind the business. Yeah. And who are the people within that business.

Speaker A: I think Heck sausages were one of the brands that did really, really well with, with getting that buying into, you know, here's, you know, the people on the farm that are producing this and the quality of the product and, and bits like that.

Speaker B: Well, you've got Jamie Oliver.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know. Yeah, he's had some. Absolutely.

Speaker A: It's been a roller coaster of a

Speaker B: time for him but actually he's all, you know, he's organic, he's, you know, very family orientated and people love him. Yeah. For what his values are, uh, what he's.

Speaker A: And even when he stepped into that political sphere of kind of putting his flag in the, in the ground to say, you know what we need to improve this and I'll show you how we can improve it and try and try to bring everybody with him on that journey, didn't they?

Speaker B: Yeah. And he did get hit back a few times. But that's what personal branding is all about. You, you've got to be the hero.

Speaker A: If you could brand anybody, who would your ideal customer be for, for personal branding? Who would you? You know, people.

Speaker B: I, I do like a challenge.

Speaker A: So Elon Musk, if you want to

Speaker B: phone in, you know, to be honest,

Speaker A: mainly because

Speaker B: I'm um, inspired by Trini Woodson at the moment. I mean obviously she set up her businesses Trini London. She is everywhere. She is, you know, doing clothes, she's. And I quite admire her. And I saw an interview with her, uh, being interviewed by, I think it was Forbes or something like that and they, it was a young girl interviewing it and she said how are you doing what you do at your age? And you could see she was very, very diplomatic but said her piece and I really admired her the way she came across because that is part of my other side of the business is thriving brand.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Where that is helping women in their 40s, 50s and 60s.

Speaker A: Um, I think there's a massive pool of talent that stepped out to have a family and is often ignored to come back into the workplace. And you will have heard the expression, you know, give someone busy something to do and they'll get it done.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And generally the, the stay at home mums have stepped back and stepped out of a career, are ignored by the hiring pool. And actually I was hoping we would have seen more of a, a transition through Covid to flexible working and trying to re, attract those people back into the workplace because you can have a 40 something mum that was a marketing manager of a, a brand that's got all that talent and knowledge and experience and gets written off because you've had five years out of the workplace.

Speaker B: Well, I see I did when I had, I, I actually had staff. Thrive, Thrive Studios. I had staff. I had Premises and things like that then uh, originally and um, every member that I had were mums because I knew going through when I was freelance I had to work around my children and what is, you know, when I go to London to see clients now I see mums talking to their children, saying goodnight to them on FaceTime and it breaks my heart. So my ethos at the beginning of Thrive Studios was that I Would hire mums that had. Didn't want to go back to London, but they wanted to work around the children. So that was my ethos back then. Um, fortunately, I was married to a guy who hated me being successful because lots of trouble won the business down a bit because. Because just keep quieter life. Um, got divorced now. So I'm got the freedom to do

Speaker A: the things you want.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And now. And I lost my voice. He was very controlling. So I lost who I was. I lost my voice. I didn't. I didn't know what direction I couldn't. Felt as though I didn't have an opinion. So I did positive psychology for me and I studied positive psychology. But now that's what Thriving Brand is all about, is to get people to have a voice because they do feel lost when they've come out, you know, when they've had the children, when they've gone through menopause, when you go through anxiety and you doubt yourself. The amount m of women I work with and they, uh, are frightened of putting themselves on social media because they think they're going to be judged for the age that they are.

Speaker C: You started your business with courage, a bold step to do things your way. When it gets tough, it's your restless determination that keeps it going. Growing a business isn't easy. But with business coaching from help me grow, you'll soon be getting customers like clockwork. Together, we'll find the gaps, fix the marketing and master the numbers. You'll soon have a business that delivers for you. The business owner. To discover how Jamie Morgan can help grow your business, book your complimentary coaching call today. Visit helpmegrow.co.uk for more information.

Speaker B: When I listen to their backgrounds and their stories, I'm like, why the hell aren't you saying what you do? So I'm very much champion now because of what I went through. That is my thing with Thriving Brand. But I can't let go of the design side with Thrive Studios.

Speaker A: So they tie beautifully together.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that I can give them the help and the encouragement to be able to put themselves out there, but give them the process and teach them the process. So I might not do any design for them whatsoever, but I'm teaching them the process how do it so lots of they can do themselves m that

Speaker A: psychology opens up a whole can of worms, but also so many different influential factors. I know that one of the things I studied a lot with marketing was the bit fascinated with me was neuroscience, especially when early on they said to you, you know about, um, Putting cameras into the supermarket to track eyes and to see where people were spending the time, you know, looking and where was the most valuable shelves in the supermarket for a new brand to, to buy shelf space and things like that. And it's just, it was kind of a light bulb moment. So when you started to explore psychology and you, you did this as a, your kind of role of self improvement, what were the key things in psychology that you found to help you?

Speaker B: I'd always done psychology for branding because you've got to get in the head of the customer. So I've always done that. But positive psychology is very different. So it's your mindset. So it's. Instead of thinking, I can't do this, it's like, how do you persuade that person from that self doubt? So there's a lot, it's a slightly different thing, but at the end of the day it's still how your brain works. And you know, there's a lot of women I have worked with over the last couple of years and that they've just lost their way or they've fallen out of love, what they want to do and m. It's bringing that passion back.

Speaker A: We were talking about the changes in technology earlier and how you're constantly having to adapt and change. And I think that's one of the, the superpowers of small business owners really is that uh, adapting to change is something especially if you've had a few careers. Yeah.

Speaker B: And that's the problem because they are frying to death are doing something wrong. So they're, you know when they're like tick tock came out. They didn't that all they saw was the dancing. Oh, I can't do that, can't do that. But actually it's evolved so much into something completely different platform. So it's taking those. I would say to them, always take one step at a time. Don't overload yourself. I mean, to be honest, I get freaked out with, with tech, you know, and I'm using it day in, day out. But if something new comes out, like I'm, I'm um, doing some online courses at the moment. So I'm learning, learning the software for that. I'm thinking I'm a perfectionist. So it's got to look right, it's got to feel right. And I'm thinking, God's sake, Lisa, just put it out there. But

Speaker A: there's a, there's a saying about, you know, the, the best campaigns, one that actually gets sent out, the not that stays as tweak it after. Exactly.

Speaker C: Good.

Speaker A: Continuing improvements in kind of Japanese line of thought. But so many of us are like every time you, I'm sure you've done this, you'll write something and come back to it the next day and tweak it and then you leave it. A day or two and a week's gone past and you still haven't. It's just like, come on, just move on.

Speaker B: It's like a blog, isn't it? You over analyze so much.

Speaker A: So what would you say that are the kind of first steps to finding your voice again? If you've been in that situation of feeling lost and um, losing direction.

Speaker B: I think it's looking back what, what you really loved to do and um, design is always brand and design is always lit me up and from being. I did my degree in graphic design. I was an illustrator, did illustration before that, went to art school. So that is where my passion is. So and so that is. I had to make sure I got that back. Yeah. And get my self confidence back.

Speaker A: So we're, we're about an hour, hour and a quarter outside of London and um, you know, if you're in that fashion, advertising, design world in, in the city in the 80s and 90s, that's a very different place now. But that energy that was there, you know, you're a little way away from now. Did you spend an awful lot of time in, in the city doing those kind of things or was it.

Speaker B: So I worked quite creative.

Speaker A: Creatives bounce off of each other.

Speaker B: Oh yeah.

Speaker A: And yeah.

Speaker B: And I still love being with creatives. Um, funny enough, I, I coach quite a few creatives because they are emotional beings. They cannot be creative if you've not got emotion in there.

Speaker A: They often struggle in business because it's just the shiny object is the creativity.

Speaker B: Yeah. And they're always looking for the shiny object. Um, so it's getting them to think in a bit more logical way. So. But I understand where their feeling and what, how they met, how they work. Because I've been there.

Speaker A: It's interesting. You would have heard of Rory Sutherland and one of his um, interviews is saying about the creativity of an architect. You know, you get commissioned for a job and the creativity is not. Monday morning we're gonna start the new project, sit down with a blank sheet of paper and design a house. The inspiration comes from walking around a museum out in nature, reading a newspaper article, you know, the doing the things that absorb. But uh, you know, from the outside world. Creativity doesn't come from a blank. That's why I didn't go to art school. Because if you're in a creative mood, you're creative. If you're not in a creative mood, go and do something else. How do you switch on and switch off that creativity? Is it always there?

Speaker B: I was a nightmare when I was. I come from Lancashire originally, so my two daughters would be in the back of the car, me driving up to see my mum and dad or family up there and, And I'd be going past a van and I'm like, can you write that number down? Can you write that number? Because their logo's awful.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I never ever have really switched off. I just love it, I love it. I just inspires me. And I love seeing everything to do with design. You know, it's evolving so fast. But I actually like that, that world.

Speaker A: I'm, um, seeing a lot of companies rebrand for, for various reasons. They could have been acquired, they could have joined another group of companies. A change of old adage is that, you know, something goes wrong in the business, we'll rebrand them new signs and stuff like that as a, as a change catalyst in the business. Um, one of my clients is a pension, um, fund managers. And they've moved from a very traditional, um, blue logo, very similar to the kind of, ah, Diesel blue of the cabinets behind you, to a very bright hot pink and a very bold, chunky font. And you're just like, crikey, that's just out there, out there. It could quite easily be a burger chain if you changed the words of the logo. And you're thinking, how do colors affect us when we're choosing a logo?

Speaker B: Psychology. Color psychology is huge. But I think depends on what they want the business to be. You know, there's, there's accountancy firm called wow.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker B: And they just do creatives and their brand is designed for creatives talking to the right audience. Yeah, they're talking to right audience. So it is wacky. It is. Their tone of voice is, is talking to creatives. So depending who they want to hit, then that. It could be on brand, it could be spot on. Um, and you have to stand out now. It's a noisy, noisy world, so why not be different? But you can't be a traditional, you know, your ethics and your values. Not your values, but your mission and the way you're coming across, your tone of voice has to align.

Speaker A: Your values, uh, have got to be consistent.

Speaker B: Yeah, your values are always the same, but it's everything else.

Speaker A: Yeah. Talking about crazy. The craziest Thing I've seen last year, um, one that struck me at the heart because I drive a Jaguar.

Speaker B: Oh, they've changed the logo.

Speaker A: Not just did they change the logo, they, they went out there, you know, on another planet, quite literally.

Speaker B: So it's backfired him a bit on them.

Speaker A: Massive publicity that they probably could never have paid for.

Speaker B: Yeah. It was the talk of everything on social media within the design world. Everybody was saying, do you like it? Do you like it? Why they don't it.

Speaker A: Do you think that was a calculated, um, guess to kind of get the, the brand back out there? Or do you think that was a, an epic fail of not, not reading the room of, of English heritage?

Speaker B: I think they were a bit. They went. I do like the logo, but I think the concepts that were out there were too wacky.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: That they weren't actually showing any cars to start with, weren't they? So there was no, no context of

Speaker B: blue and God knows what. Weren't they in like bright lipsticks, like

Speaker A: a Sam Smith album cover rather than, you know.

Speaker B: And that is not. It's going to be a very slow. I mean, I know why they did it because they want to attract the younger generation to having that type of car. But. But they're not going to do that.

Speaker A: But it's a bit like Aston Martin and James Bond. You know, the two. Two go hand in hand and, you know, Jaguar is kind of the gentleman's car of the, of the uk. And there's still a lot of people that aspire to that. You know, the Range Rover, bigger sales in the US than they, than they do in the uk. So there's a lot of people around the world that want that. English Barber is a great English brand, isn't it?

Speaker B: You know, people want that Bentley. They want that because it gives. It's what this, the brand stands for. And it's a luxury brand and it's UK have always had a very good reputation.

Speaker A: Yeah. British engineering.

Speaker B: Yeah, British engineering. So that is what they've always been about and now they're trying to track the youngsters for the wrong reasons.

Speaker A: Just to follow. Following the money rather than following the values.

Speaker B: Followed the money because it's back. It's done them damage in some ways. People have talked, talked about it, but they've not bought the cars and at the end of the day they've not

Speaker A: been able to buy the cars. You think about the expenditure kind of thing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Most. You want a return on investment in most things that you do in business. So that's Quite an interesting project. Talk about interesting projects. What's the project that you've worked on in your career that you turn around and say, actually, I've been so proud to deliver that, uh, that branding project.

Speaker B: I suppose two different things. I mean, when I went for Shell, we, we. I got involved with a lot of stuff with that and Formula one and it was. I, I met some absolutely brilliant racing drivers and things like that and that was really exciting. But they did a lot of promotion and they. The cars, the way the advertising was on the cars went to another level.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, was this the days of, uh, Marlborough Racing and all of the cigarette companies and everything?

Speaker B: Yeah. Because obviously now you're not allowed to have that. Um, now you're not allowed to have drinks the same extent. They're now looking like football clubs are now saying they're not having sponsorship from gambling companies.

Speaker A: I mean, bet365. Um, I've got friends in Stoke on Trent, Massive employer in Stoke on Trent area. Massive sponsor of the football club in the town. Um, but again, it's that Vanarama is a really great example of how to get your brand out there in a reasonably cheap way because they, they sponsored the football league so that every time they were mentioned on the radio, it was there, it was there in front of everybody and their target audience.

Speaker B: And that's what you need. You need to be consistent and drip feed people. Because it used to be seven to 20 times, now they reckon it's more like 40. To get somebody to know who you

Speaker A: are and then that, you know, going back to our marketing days, that's top of the funnel stuff. It's, that's, that's the awareness stage.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That's before we've actually, before we've actually educated them as to what we do or how we do it. So there's a lot more marketing and a lot more brand awareness and a lot more legwork than ever before because there's just so much digital noise.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that's why you have to be different and that's why those people that are being them and they're voicing that you've got to voice your opinion now. Because we were all. We're typical British, we don't like to say and do our opinions where you've got the Americans that talk like, about everything. Um, so I think we have to have that fine line, but we do have to have our opinions. But the only problem is there's a lady I follow at the moment and she was talking about, um, transgenders.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That has backlashed on her like mad and she's got a lot of hate. And that's the thing. You've got to be very careful. You can put your opinion out there, but it could wreck your business.

Speaker A: Sometimes you. You've either got to stay quiet or you've got to go bold.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you've got to decide what you want.

Speaker A: It's a calculated decision.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so tweeting late at night once you've had a couple of glasses, not a good idea.

Speaker B: No, no. So I think that's. That's it. It's looking at your business, what you want to do with it, how you want to be. Know what to be known for.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What's reputation is. I mean, you can have the most beautiful logo in the world and a fantastic website, but if you don't perform and you don't, it's a waste of time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: In. And you. We all know your website can make out as though you're a massive company. And it's.

Speaker A: You fake it till you make it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Been there, done that. When I first started out, um, we had a lovely big website performed very well. Um, within six months is. Back in about 2001, we'd pulled in a contract with Beginner Self Storage when they had about 18 stores. The IT manager there was a fantastic guy. He said, you know what, what I love about working with you is every time I pick up the phone to ask you about a project, you know exactly what's going on. And it was me and two other guys running and ragged around the country in three vans. And he thought we had 40 or 50 staff because that's the way we'd sold it to them.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Um, we got to 19 staff and, you know, you kind of did fake it till you make it. But that's, that's the difference is what you set out to, uh, to sell people on, isn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's what is so key now. Because you. The problem is now you. You let somebody down M once, they never forget it. Where you could do that, do 10

Speaker A: and they can tell a million people in minutes.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So, um, you know, my daughter, she had a bad experience at, ah, Spec Savers. Yeah. So she's complained. She hasn't put it on social media or anything like that. She's complained where people didn't do that. It's so easy. She could have put that on social media and it would have just gone mad.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But she did it.

Speaker A: Everyone likes a Karen and a keyboard warrior. That they can kind of get on the bus with and go on that journey of complaining about.

Speaker B: It's so easy to wreck somebody's business. Business.

Speaker A: Yeah. These days, very interestingly, there's, um, a fire alarm company that sadly there was a, uh, care home fire and they were prosecuted by a fire service up in the the northwest. And they were basically blamed for not complying with the building regulations and everything like this. And the fire service have now dropped the case. But the reputational damage nearly bankrupted the business for something they were found not guilty of in court. But it took three years to fight the case. And people's reputations, I say, uh, years to build.

Speaker B: People will not forget that.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: It will always be back in people's. Oh, I remember that name.

Speaker A: So when you get to that kind of, you know, I know crisis communications is a whole specialist industry, but that's a great example of where a company could want to rebrand.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: How do you take them through that difficult time of like, actually your baby tends to be, you, uh, know, Thrive Studio has been around for decent amount of time. You love it like your baby, actually. Now we need to change the name. We need to give it a fresh look, fresh approach. How do you take someone through the steps of that.

Speaker B: You got it. If it's something like that, where it's their reputation, then I would say yes, rebranding and do your name because you, you will. It would be hard.

Speaker A: Yeah. To recover from.

Speaker B: To recover from that. So I mean, you know, the Mac companies that are out there that are dodgy, that have set up, they've gone bust the next day, they've set up again.

Speaker A: Carpet warehouses, double glazing companies and things like that.

Speaker B: So if you can tell, say to your actual people that you know that you've done a good job for and explain and be honest in some ways. So we've had to change the company because of that situation. Our reputation. Be honest. Don't sugarcoat it. Because if you're honest, you'll start winning people back.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Where if you just don't tell them, you just set up another company, you're

Speaker A: just another new things happen in business, don't they? Yeah. And anyone that's been around for a long time, you know, you know, people that have struggled, struggle to get paid. All these different challenges that happen in business and honesty is always the best policy. Yeah.

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Speaker A: generally want to help people, don't they?

Speaker B: I mean, most people. I mean, obviously not everybody, but most people want to help people out. I mean, I'm an absolute nightmare. I've. I've got a business coach and he tells me off because I am such a giver and I go and talk to somebody and, uh, my brain goes into overload with ideas and I'm like, oh, you could try this, you could try that. And then I have this little voice from my business coach saying to me, lisa, keep your mouth shut.

Speaker A: You like to spew on people. That's what I call it. You know, the thing is, when you're a creative person, no m matter the kind of niche of creativity, you come up with all these ideas and you can overwhelm people very easily.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: A. Because of your brilliance, so you feel amazing. But on the flip side, you can overwhelm them, all these ideas and they just don't know where to start.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The interesting thing we talked about, personal branding versus company branding and they can often be two quite different silos if you're not careful, can't they?

Speaker B: Yeah. Because you, you. It's, again, it depends on with your personal brand, what you want to do with that business. Because obviously you've got like, Richard Branson and things like that, who's Virgin. But Virgin is still an entity in their own right. Yeah. So you've got to know what you want to do with that company.

Speaker A: Because some people, you know, entrepreneurs, we like to chase the next thing and sell a business and move on to something else.

Speaker B: And you can't build your personal brand as the same extent has to be the company. Um, but you can still be the voice quietly in the background. So. But if you're somebody like, you know, just like Trini Woodson or something like that, she is the brand.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's her face, it's her business. So it's Triny.

Speaker A: That's a lot of trust that you're putting.

Speaker B: That's a lot of trust you're putting in. And she's got massive team now, so it's not. It's not. It's her that's running the business. So her brand, her personal brand is huge. So it depends on what you want to do. But as I said before, everybody looks at the directors, they look at people within that business, the people that they're going to deal with.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That they want that connection now. And, you know, uh, you.

Speaker A: I mean, quite literally, I won't buy a car from a. Yeah, I bought my jack a little while ago. I knew what I wanted to buy and I knew the model that I wanted to buy. And then when I was looking through dealerships, um, that weren't main agents, like, uh, is there a company name and address? Is there a name of someone you're going to speak to? Is there a picture of somebody you're going to speak to? You know, because when something goes wrong, you know, you want to be able to turn around and say, bang your fist on a desk and, you know, get a resolution. And faceless businesses just don't work.

Speaker B: They don't work because people don't trust people, no matter what, what anybody says. Now you've got to really work up that trust because people. There's so much, so many people have been conned sometime in business or been let down by somebody in business that were more skeptical. So that trust takes so much longer to build and your reputation takes so much longer to build than it ever has before.

Speaker A: When would be the right time to introduce a brand consultant to a business?

Speaker B: They should do right at the beginning, to be honest.

Speaker A: Always set the foundations.

Speaker B: That's it. You know, it's like you as a business coach. You know, you've got to know what that business is about and where you want to take that business. So there's. I love working with somebody right from the start, but obviously they haven't got the budget to do it. Um, which is why I consult and I do the coaching, because it's a cheaper way of doing it. My design agency would be a lot dearer for them to do stuff, but I can guide them in the right direction. Um, but I would say that helps

Speaker A: them to understand which order to do things.

Speaker B: Because that's what they should do. Because they run before they can walk. Yeah. And then it can go complete excuse French. Tits up.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Um, so it's getting that structure there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Which is when a business coach comes in or a brand consultant comes in, whatever. Which is what they should be doing. But I also love when somebody's been two and a half years in a business where they've got established and then

Speaker A: they want to get a fresh vision again.

Speaker B: Yeah. So they. They they want to go to that next level, they want to have the staff M. But they need. The voice is different, um, tone of voice because they've evolved. They know what they started out might not have worked. So they're, they're developing new ideas. I mean my, I'm, I'm always developing new ideas. You know, any business person is. You're always looking for the next big thing in some ways. What. How can I. Because design, because of Canva design is a very different world now than it was when I did it, when I first did it in the 90s. Um, it's a, when the students come out, it's. They've got to know everything. Now when I've coached like, um, students like from Farnham, um, university or I've spoken to somebody and they've come and worked with me for a week or whatever, they've got to know everything. They've got to be coders, they've got to be web developers, they've got to be animators, they've got to be absolutely everything. Yeah. And in my day you weren't that you were especially in one area and you, then you grew, you learned that your field, then you moved on. They, they're thrown in the deep end so much now and I do feel very sorry for them.

Speaker A: Um, being a generous is a difficult job.

Speaker B: It is, yeah.

Speaker A: You know, you see a job advert, we need someone experience of Photoshop, Illustrator, uh, SEO, copywriting, you know, the whole list goes on.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: So what do we see Thrive Studios looking like over the next few years? What's the, what's the focus that's going to be?

Speaker B: Thriving Brand is my real focus. I, I love the consultancy side. Um, I bring people in now, so collaborating a lot more with Thrive Studios, um, and I can't really let go of that. But Thriving Brand is my passion. That's my real baby. Now when I, when I help somebody and I see them glow and they've got the confidence.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: That's. That is worth its way in gold. I absolutely love that when I can see they see those light bulb moments, um, and then they're not overwhelmed with writing like a website or what to do with that. There's a lot of SEO.

Speaker A: They understand how every bit comes together,

Speaker B: comes together and they understand. Yeah. So it's like LEGO pieces in some ways, putting it all together. That's what I really enjoy now. So that's my focus for the future. Um, and I like to do more group programs, um, building communities that I like people to talk to each other, not be against each other is the,

Speaker A: the whole having a focus group within your community to bounce ideas off of and to get feedback on and, and understand how things are working.

Speaker B: Because working for yourself is a lonely world. You need other people to bounce ideas off and yeah, you, sometimes you can be too honest and it's detrimental to you. I mean I've, I've talked openly what I wanted to do in the business, then I've been online, uh, and that person I've spoken to is suddenly got an idea and copied it and copied it. So I know sometimes I've got to keep my mouth shut because I want to change the.

Speaker A: Be like a duck, lots of scrabbling underneath the water and calm and composed on top.

Speaker B: And uh, I think I'm more honest now than I probably was because I had to hide so much emotion going on in my personal life. At the time I was two different people. I was trying to be the professional person and then this mush at home. So I think because I know who I am now.

Speaker A: You've got that clarity.

Speaker B: I've got that clarity. I know what I want and I know what, what areas I want to do and I want to make a difference to people. I don't want to just take the money. Yeah, it's not, it's not a foot, it's not a, uh, Obviously I've got to earn money because I've got, I've got mortgage and everything else to pay.

Speaker A: So. But it's different from my point of view. You've got, you've had a very successful career through, you know, several decades. A very changing industry that, you know, we talk about technology changing, but this, uh, industry as a whole, the creative industry has been one of the biggest impacts through technology. How would you define your success going forward from now? What does success look like for you?

Speaker B: I don't mean I do like going on stage and educating. Um, I want to inspire, I think that's the thing, I want to inspire that next generation and those 40 year olds and 50 year olds that, because they do say it's like 26 of new businesses started with a 50 year old, 55 year old now, which is huge. And you, you could still be in this. I met a lady the other day and she was 75 and she was still loving a career and still working. And I'm thinking that's what I'd like to do. I don't ever want to give up. You know, doesn't matter what age you are, as long as you've still got

Speaker A: some creativity and the marbles are all still in a row and you're still

Speaker B: keeping up with what's going on. I mean, it is some things I'm lost at. Uh, and then I've got to work through and it takes me longer to work out.

Speaker A: But we're all the same.

Speaker B: But we're all the same. Um, and you know, my daughters are, uh, 28 and 26 now. And they'll say, oh, um, Mum m. Did you not know about this?

Speaker A: And do you know the context to that? We've lived the technology generation, so we've seen everything from BBCBS, Acorn computers, Amstrad's Commodore 65 and all this four channels, a floppy disk with full of Word documents and all of this stuff we've lived through. So our context for technology is like this.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Our children's context of technology is like this and that. That's, that's my excuse anyway.

Speaker B: But do you find people are a lot more impatient now? Everybody wants everything now.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: That's the Amazon effect. Because I can get something delivered the same afternoon within two hours I can get a Morrisons delivery via Amazon on my doorstep.

Speaker B: Yeah. But they want you design to be, um, very, very quick as well. Very quick. And if they want a good job yet some days it all comes together and the ideas are there and it's so easy. But other days you have a mental block or they, the client changes his mind but they still want it tomorrow.

Speaker A: Because until you've put something onto paper, they don't know if it's a direction that they want to be going.

Speaker B: Um, yeah. Yeah. And so you've got. As a designer, it's one thing I do find when I'm talking to designers to work with them. Um, um, a lot of them are asking questions and when, when I'm talking,

Speaker A: they're not digging deep enough.

Speaker B: They're not digging deep enough. And a good designer will ask you questions. They want to know about your business, where you want to take it. They should be asking lots and lots of questions before they're ever doing.

Speaker A: And then they need to think in time.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's what I do find when somebody. The pain. Fiverr.com or whatever, they're not asking questions. And in the. When I, I came in be years ago hiring somebody and I, when I was hiring them, I always gave them a brief.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it was my daughter's prom at the time, so I gave them brief to say, these are the colors, this is the age group. Obviously you've Got to appear to the. The kids. But you've also got to appear to the mum. Yep.

Speaker A: Because different influencing different people. They've got the buying decision.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know them? I got, I, I m. Gave it to six designers. Three of them came back with clip art. Now, do you think I hide them?

Speaker D: No.

Speaker B: No. And it's that creativity thinking out of the box. Because they didn't ask me any questions. I gave them a straightforward brief. The people that were spot on asked me questions.

Speaker A: Hundreds of questions. You can spin from that. How old are the mums? You know, what kind of backgrounds, what kind of, um, income levels, you know, 101. Things that can influence that.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's what a good designer should do. They. They shouldn't just be, oh, we'll just put this brochure together.

Speaker D: Whatever.

Speaker B: I want to know when I'm designing a brochure for a client, what are you going to do with that brochure? Who's it talking to? Why do you need that brochure?

Speaker A: Is it going to be printed? Is it going to be online? All these different things as to how

Speaker B: we're going to use. Think it's a waste of money. How many businesses have you gone in? And they've got a store room and they've got piles and piles of brochures that are out.

Speaker A: Never seen a lot of day.

Speaker B: Never seen a lot of day. So what is the point? My, my process now is there's a lot of agencies out there that say, oh, you've got to rebrand, you've got to do this and it's all for the money. It's not what's right.

Speaker A: Marketers are good at creating their next job, aren't they? Yeah.

Speaker B: And I, uh, want to make a difference. I will say, why are you rebranding?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: If I don't think you should be rebranding, I will tell you, you shouldn't rebrand because it's not just designing a logo, it's absolutely everything. It's going to cost you thousands and thousands because you go over your vans redone, you've got.

Speaker A: Exactly.

Speaker B: And that's what people don't realize that from one simple thing. Oh, I'm going to rebrand. It will.

Speaker A: The spin offs.

Speaker B: The spin offs are huge. So why do it if it's not necessary? You can tweak it.

Speaker A: So where would we find out more about thriving brand online?

Speaker B: So Instagram is at thriving brand. Most of my stuff is on Instagram and LinkedIn. It's Lisa Clooney. Um, and then my websites are thriving. Brand.com and then ThriveStudios.co.uk Fantastic.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for being my guest today, Lisa. I've really enjoyed our conversation.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Thanks for tuning in to Wired for Success. If something in today's episode resonated, I'd love to hear from you. Drop me a message on LinkedIn or find me on Instagram. If you're a business owner with a story worth sharing, get in touch. You could be our next guest. Don't forget, subscribe, share and leave a review. It helps more people find the podcast. Until next time, keep going. You are Wired for Success.