Episode 120: Carlene Hempel and Sydney Woogerd

Carlene Hempel: M. I said I want the whole site to have a soundscape. I want every page to have some sort of grounding foundational sound that connects viewers to the space, the place, the people, the sounds of Asheville. Because so many people understand Asheville to be this lyrically vibrant place. And so we set to it.

Dan Kennedy: Welcome to what Works, a uh, podcast about the future of local news coming to you from Northeastern University's School of Journalism and the center for Transformative Media. Dan I'm Dan Kennedy.

Ellen Clegg: And I'm Ellen Clegg. Today we're talking with Professor Carlene Hempel at Northeastern and her student Sidney Widyard. This spring Carlene brought a team of student journalists to Asheville, North Carolina for a week long intensive reporting trip that focused on the devastating aftermath of Hurricane Helene. The result? A digital multimedia investigation called Caught in the Current Helene Recovery in Asheville and Beyond. And um, put simply, Dan, this is a stunning project with podcasts, videos, photos and text. There's also a great soundtrack. We'll drop a link in the show notes.

Dan Kennedy: There's even watercolors as we will hear. Carlene has been a journalism professor at Northeastern University for more than 20 years. She specializes in teaching long form narrative writing as well as creating on site pop up newsrooms domestically and abroad. For her courses, her 2025 reporting class and resulting magazine about the 10 year anniversary of the water crisis in Flint, Michigan won two national reporting awards.

Ellen Clegg: Sydney is studying journalism and international affairs at Northeastern with a focus on multimedia storytelling. She serves as co photo director for the Avenue Magazine, a student led fashion publication where she directs visual strategy and creates editorial content. Sydney served as the project's photo editor.

Dan Kennedy: Later on in the podcast, I'm going to have a quick take about our recent what Works webinar for local news publishers, journalists and volunteers. I thought it was a rousing success and if you missed it you I'm going to tell you how you can catch up.

Ellen Clegg: I met some fantastic journalists and entrepreneurs during the breakout sessions of the webinar. For my quick take I'm going to share five lessons I've learned from watching how the projects we wrote about in our book have evolved. But now let's hear from Carlene and Sydney.

Dan Kennedy: Carlene, in 2025 you brought a team of student journalists to Flint, Michigan to report on the years long aftermath of lead pollution in the drinking water. Now this past spring you brought another group of students to Asheville, North Carolina which is still coping with the devastating effects of Hurricane Helene that swept through the area in September 2020. 4. How did you choose Asheville?

Carlene Hempel: Thank you so much, Dan and Ellen, for having Sydney and myself here. Um, we only recently finished our magazine after months and months of working on it. And, uh, we're so grateful to be here. To answer your question, I, as a professor at Northeastern School of Journalism, am always looking for opportunities to bring students into the field. To have them report on something that is impactful and that will matter to them, but will also matter to a, uh, local audience, but a national audience. And so I look for opportunities outside of Boston because I think part of their training should be creating a newsroom out of nothing, landing in a community and figuring it out. No one really knew much about this community, just like no one really knew much about Flint. And so I chose Asheville specifically because I have to plan these programs almost a year ahead of time. And so it's hard to create an environment that has a breaking news feel. And so I've been looking for places that can tell a story and after something happens. For the Flint, Michigan project, that was the 10 year anniversary of a water crisis. I knew going into Asheville 18 months after Tropical Storm Helene had hit, there would still be enormous fallout. But I also knew that the news trucks would have driven away by then. In fact, they drove away within a couple of weeks. We found out. I knew that the people would still be suffering. I knew that people would still be looking and waiting for FEMA response. What we found was that they were waiting for much more. And Sydney can speak to this as well, if not better than I. We found houses that were still demolished. We found people who were the victims of thousands and thousands of mudslides, still searching for their prized life possessions in the mud. And we found people who were still having nightmares at night and still bracing for the worst when a storm came through. And so what we decided to do was right. Asheville and beyond. It wasn't just Asheville, it was all of western North Carolina. But we wanted to use it as, uh, sort of a touchstone for any community that suffers a natural disaster and still grapples with what the fallout is while everyone else has turned to look toward the next natural disaster.

Dan Kennedy: And of course, one of the hardest jobs in journalism is to drop into an area you're not familiar with and start reporting. So I'm wondering how you prepared before your trip. How did you find people whose stories you wanted to tell? Uh, and this might be a question for either one of you.

Carlene Hempel: I'll start and I'll toss it to Sydney. One of the fabulous Things about this particular model of a class is we leave on the first day of spring break, which this time around was February 28th. And so we have until then to prepare. So our semester started in the first week of January. And so for all of that time, we prepared. We called people, we read every magazine, newspaper article, we listened to every podcast, we watched every video, every documentary about this community. And we started gathering names, we started our databases, we started pitching stories so that many of the students had long and involved interviews with people before they set foot in the communities that we were covering. Sydney was one of the first people who came to me with a, uh, story idea. And she had all of her interviews pretty much lined up before we even got to Asheville. So, Sydney, why don't you explain to them the story that you found? Talk to them about lost and found.

Sydney Woogerd: Yeah. So really early on, I already kind of knew what I wanted to do with my one story, because I was the photo editor for this project as well. I only worked on a single written story. And I remember seeing a documentary early on in our research process, preparing to go to Asheville, that was talking about little objects that were found along the way. It was only a, maybe like a two minute clip within this hour and 30 minute long documentary, but somebody pulling this photograph out of the mud. And I thought that that kind of idea of how objects move over time, especially after a natural disaster like this, prized objects, valued objects, you know, generational heirlooms and things that you collected over the course of your entire lifetime and over generations, just lost in the floods and stuck in the mud somewhere. Who knows if it will be found? Who knows if it will just stay there and build more, um, mud over time. But that kind of idea was something that enticed me early on. And so I really built my whole story around that framework and the idea of objects moving in time. So, yeah, the beginning of the process for that was just, um, looking at Facebook and trying to find specific Facebook groups, um, that were people looking for lost objects or people who found lost objects and were posting them on these Facebook groups. And Carlene and I really wanted to have a foundational idea of interviews before we even got on the ground in Asheville, because it was such a, A nuanced topic. So getting into those Facebook groups and reaching out to people that way was a big, big way for me to prepare.

Ellen Clegg: Sydney, you were the photo editor of the project, and Carlene told us you were, in fact, a pillar of the project. I know you're also a reporter and A videographer. You told the story of Jill Holtz, an Army National Guard member who worked to reunite people with the objects you mentioned. Can you talk more about how you found Holtz?

Sydney Woogerd: Uh, like I was talking about a little bit before I found her on Facebook. She was a huge resource for this community in Swannanoa, which is a town right outside of Asheville. She is Army National Guard, like you mentioned, but she was all over these Facebook groups. I mean, like, every other post was Jill's. And so since the very beginning of the storm, I would say even as close as two months after, she was out in the fields, out by the river, just all around Swannanoa, picking up, um, what other people were saying was trash, but was essentially the fragments of people's lives across baseball fields and, you know, in the gutters of destroyed homes. And there were so many people saying, you know, just, like, clean it up, like, we want to go back to normal. But she was like, no, this is so important. You know, these little, um, trinkets and stuffed animals, and she found army boxes and, uh, games and wallets and IDs and just so much stuff. And she still has an entire trailer full of people's objects, and she has never once thrown anything away. So this idea of this woman who hasn't even lived in this community, but essentially kind of came in as a member of the active Guard and who has stayed since. She lives in Brawley. But she comes out to Swannanoa, uh, every couple of months to hold a basically open house of the back of her trailer, and people can pull up and check if their things are there. And she regularly posts on Facebook, um, and social media to make sure everybody is informed. But she was just such a pillar of not only the community, but of my story and finding other sources who were able to get their objects back. Yeah.

Ellen Clegg: So was it hard to draw her out? Talking to traumatized people is sometimes kind of rough, as if you're a reporter. Was it hard to draw people out in general, or did they want to talk?

Sydney Woogerd: I think for my story specifically, I found that a lot of people really did want to talk about the experiences they had had with the storm. And I think especially my story in particular is a very hopeful story in a lot of ways. The main people that I spoke to receive their items back and these prized possessions returned to them. So it was this idea of, you know, something so crazy and horrible for so many people happened, but I got a fragment of my life back. And, you know what joy comes with that, and the connection of the community to get that item back. Uh, there's one example is Jill gave me two postcards that she had found in the mud to give to one of my other sources because she hadn't seen them yet. So even I was part of the process of returning these objects back to their owners. And the joy that just comes with, you know, getting an item back that you lost and you never thought you would have again, I think is something that a lot of them wanted to highlight, especially with all of the pain that was going around, um, in other stories as well. But I know that other people did have some more difficulties with that, with more, um, dark, harder topics. Yeah.

Dan Kennedy: So, you know, it's really impossible to convey on a podcast the richness of the site that you put together. There were soundscapes of music from the Blue Ridge region, A wonderful video story about a woman who makes guitars from trees that were destroyed in the storm. Photos, art podcasts, and an amazing data visualization that lets users track the progress of the storm. We really hope listeners will spend some time with it. Can you tell us how you conceived of the different elements that you wanted to use to tell this story?

Carlene Hempel: Sure, sure. Thank you, Dan, for saying all of those nice things. I think over all of these years of teaching these magnificent students, I have learned to sort of meet them where they are, and I have learned to build the entire site around the skills that I have in the room. So I knew Sydney was a magnificent photographer, and so she was immediately appointed photo editor. And we immediately started figuring out the sort of, you know, photo landscape of the, of the site. I also on the first day learned that one of our graduate students in the class, this is what's called a cross listed class, so it's undergraduates and graduate students. We were lucky enough out of 11 students to have seven who were graduating, meaning there were. The seven students were extraordinarily experienced. They had been through multiple co ops or work experiences, and they really knew what they were doing. And so I was lucky enough to have what she titled herself, Azaria Baker, as, uh, a sound supervisor. So her skill set was producing sound clips, but by finding samples all over the place. And she had a particular interest in finding music that was no longer within the scope of copyright laws. Old, old music. And so the minute I knew that, the first day I knew that, I sat down with her and I said, uh, Asheville is a place of music, of bluegrass, of folk music, of what we used to call mountain music. I lived in, in North Carolina for years. Um, and did stories about this sort of thing. And so I said, I want the whole site to have a soundscape. I want every page to have some sort of grounding, foundational sound that connects viewers to the space, the place, the people, the sounds of Asheville, because so many people understand Asheville to be this lyrically vibrant place. And so we set to it. She found musicians again, she had to do this before we got there. She found musicians who were willing for us to do original field recordings. And if you listen to the video that tops the homepage, that video is scored with a song, an original song that a wonderful woman wrote in the aftermath of this storm. And she allowed us the rights to reproduce it as part of that video. And so that became one important aspect. I also had a student named Beck Orton, who was a very talented digital artist and watercolorist. And so I said, okay, then we're going to illustrate as much as we can with her skill set. And you'll see the fingerprints of her artistic mastery throughout the entire site. And so that is how I try to organize these sites. And if I do this next year or the year later, it will be completely different because we'll have a completely different soundscape, and we'll have a completely different skill set. Finally, Namira Harris, who was a graduate student, was particularly talented in web development, and it was just extraordinary to work with her. She just graduated as a grad student, and really, anything I asked for, she created any sort of data visualization or interactive element on that site. I would say, namira, can we do this? And she would just nod yes, and she would figure it out. It's the most magnificent, the most incredible environment to teach in. And I think this sort of class environment draws these sort of students, But I think this sort of class environment also brings out in students the very best of what they can produce and what they have to offer. So it's those twin things that made it so special.

Dan Kennedy: I almost don't want to single out a particular student.

Ellen Clegg: But.

Dan Kennedy: But you mentioned Beck and her watercolors. Uh, there was a wonderful story in there. It's an interactive of watercolors of the different churches in the region. And you just click on each church and you can find out what they were doing to help people after the storm. It's just a, uh, great piece of visual journalism.

Carlene Hempel: Thank you so much for saying that. Beck came to us without much journalism experience. And. And so that's an example of my trying to figure out how she could meaningfully contribute to the site without doing a Very extensive or expansive journalistic treatment. And again, once I figured out what she had to offer, it became very clear very quickly how important churches were to the cleanup and the recovery. That when the state or the federal government failed, folks, churches stepped in and just built houses, doled out food, clothes, gave shelter, asking for nothing in return. And so we said, let's identify five churches from here to as far as we can go in the week that we're traveling to North Carolina, travel to each one of them, get photos so that you could then produce your original watercolors of those. And then she interviewed one or two people just to do vignettes from each church. And so, Dan, that, too, is one of my favorite pieces. On a very intimate level, it really brings what happened in the region to the reader, to the viewer of the site.

Ellen Clegg: Although weather and climate change are not exactly the same thing, we know that storms like Helene are becoming more frequent and more severe. We're wondering if you guys had any conversations with people on the ground about climate change and whether they dismiss it or see it as a problem.

Carlene Hempel: I'll start and then I'll toss it to Sydney. It was very clear from all of the sources that we spoke with and interacted with that climate change is real to them. They experienced it, but they also understood that they could experience it again. Understand Asheville. And this region was not in a flood zone. They didn't expect to be hit by a flood as part of a hurricane which had developed them into a tropical storm. And so they were truly blindsided. But they have woken up to the fact that not only could this happen because it did happen, but that it could happen again. Sydney, I am sure there are people you spoke with because Sydney, as the photo editor, was on many, many stories. She focused on her story, but she accompanied untold numbers of interviews. And so, Sydney, tell us a little bit if you have any anecdotes about people talking about this shift in climate and what happened there.

Sydney Woogerd: The thing that I experienced most on the ground speaking with people was just the surprise that came with this storm. Like Carlene spoke about, this was supposed to be a climate. Haven't, you know, people moved from the coast to Asheville to get away from the possibility of a huge storm hitting. So the idea that this, I mean, essentially the Swannanoa river, which comes off the east side of Asheville, it's maybe five feet wide and like three feet deep, four feet deep. But the idea that this tiny river could grow to wipe out entire homes. There was an anecdote That I was told about a family in Swannanoa, uh, who had to climb up to their Ford truck and sit on the top of it because the water line had gone so high that if they were any lower, they would have been swept away. And so this idea of, how could this have happened? We never expected this to happen. And, um, just the surprise that came with that. And I know we have stories, and it's interwoven into every single story, but the preparedness. There was no expectation that this would hit Asheville in the way that it did. And there was no real groundwork laid to be prepared for this type of storm. And so people were affected in ways that they had never imagined could happen. And I think that's why all of the stories that we talk about are so impactful, is because the way that people had to adapt and change in the hours of. And the weeks after the months after the storm created this, I think, community is what I really saw as people had to come together because there was some help coming in. But the people that were living there were the people that had to stick together and make it work and help each other out and, you know, have ham radios to help out your neighbors so that you can call for help when somebody is hurt. And those kind of anecdotal stories are littered all throughout this site about the people that had to innovate and come together as a community to help each other through the storm for the lack of preparedness that they had in the area.

Dan Kennedy: What's your assessment of how the rebuilding effort is progressing? One of your reporters, Allie Caudle, found that chaos at the Federal Emergency Management Agency under the Trump White House has delayed those efforts.

Carlene Hempel: That was really devastating for our reporters to witness because people are still waiting for relief. They're waiting for help. So many people are either unhomed or in living in unstable situations, um, because they still have not been awarded money that was either initially promised or is still in the pipeline. And Ali reported on that. A graduate student named Claire Ogden also reported on that. But everybody, everybody heard the stories of what people were dealing with. I mean, we created a newsroom environment in the lobby of the hotel where we were staying, which is often what we do in these environments. And, of course, everything is crackling. Everyone is telling me about their stories. Photographers and videographers are connecting before they head out. People are standing there and they're listening, and they walk over, you know, locals, and they want to tell their story. How many of the actual workers in the hotel, you know, came up to us and said, can I. Can I tell you my story? And one of the people that's focused on in Claire's piece called Uprooted, um, is a guy named Jack who told his tale about his. His house that was, you know, wiped away, washed away. And, uh, and he'd only recently in the last week had moved into his new house. So this was and is. I mean, it was the same story in Flint. Dan. This is the hallmark of these sorts of natural disasters, is that people wait. They wait and they wait. And for Asheville, it was 18 months, and they were waiting. For Flint, it was 10 years, and they were waiting. And I think this is the story that people are missing and that we're trying to capture in this program. We're trying to tell the story of those people who have been forgotten, um, who are still, you know, fighting the fight and trying to be heard and trying to get relief. Um, and I think it's a story that everyone else is missing.

Sydney Woogerd: I can add on to that a little bit as well. Like Carlene mentioned before, I was able to tag along with a lot of interviews that some of my colleagues were doing. And almost every single person had a story of something that had not been rebuilt yet. During one of Claire's interview with Ham, uh, radio experts, he was talking about his church that had been approved for FEMA assistance but was still demolished, had not received any FEMA assistance. So stories like that were so common to find. And I also had the opportunity for my own story to go up to Marshall, which was a small town about 20 minutes north of Asheville, like, population of 200 and 300 people. The corners of this town still buildings were demolished and the work that had been done at the center of the town. Everything was rebuilt on the people's dime. Everything was essentially rebuilt because they decided, we can't just sit here and do nothing. We have to come together. We have to rebuild our, uh, town, our homes. And they're working their way out. Right? So that kind of thing, especially on the edges of Asheville and the towns surrounding it, is extremely prevalent, especially even today.

Ellen Clegg: Are you working with any news organizations in North Carolina to republish your work? This is such an important story, and it deserves as wide an audience as possible.

Carlene Hempel: Thank you so much for saying that, Ellen. We have partnered for both of these programs that I've spoken to you both about with a nonprofit news organization based in D.C. called DCReport.org it's, uh, a national platform for us. They are in the process of republishing as we speak, our work. They put up a story, uh, about storm preparedness two days ago, and, uh, they're working on one of our podcasts now. We have two podcasts on the site, so everything we have done for Cotton, the Current in Asheville and beyond, will be republished, uh, on this site. And hopefully it will bring some attention beyond North Carolina and Boston to this topic.

Dan Kennedy: And, Carlene, we're wondering if you have any early ideas about where you might go next year.

Carlene Hempel: I probably am not going to go anyplace next year, but the year after, I'm going to take the next year off. I haven't started thinking about it. You know, I thought I might send out a survey or a poll with students and say, what are your ideas? Let's put our heads together and figure out where the next big story is. You know, again, keeping in mind, I have to plan a year ahead. So the story has to have legs, as we say, to carry us through to the point when we're traveling there in the following March. But that's my plan. You know, I have some students in my sight. Sydney is one of them. You know, students can retake this course, and so I think I might start recruiting a few, and in that process, say, where do you want to go? Because we can go anywhere, and what we'll do will be terrific wherever we end up.

Ellen Clegg: Sydney, any thoughts?

Sydney Woogerd: Uh, I would love to take the class again. That's all I'll say.

Ellen Clegg: Finally, a question we ask all our guests. What's on your media diet? What websites, podcasts do you recommend for. For fans of multimedia presentations like Caught in the Current?

Carlene Hempel: I am a traditional newspaper girl. I forgot you asked this question last time, and I should have come up with a better answer, but I spend my days reading the New York Times, the Boston Globe, and the wonderful newspaper. My husband works for, the Washington Post. And so I'm not a big podcast listener. But I'm sure Sydney has a better audio answer for you.

Sydney Woogerd: I'm kind of in a similar boat in terms of. I. I love to read the news. Obviously, like Carlene mentioned, there's the big ones. But I'm honestly finding that I'm really enjoying stumbling upon, you know, smaller journalists, maybe, that don't have as much traditional experience, but who are still telling very important stories in very important ways. And I usually find those on social media, such as Instagram, um, which are usually shorter videos that lead you to kind of links that will be longer. But I think that what I always recommend to people, especially my Age is that social media is a great resource for finding those little gold nuggets. People that are doing great work who might not be as popular or have the backing of a large outlet behind them, but who are, you know, just as good and doing just as much innovative work. And I think it's kind of a similar tale for this project. You know, all the people who were brought together because of Carlene and the effort that she has made to make this project happen year after year. I think that everybody, and I speak for everybody in the class, we learned so much and we were able to create something as a group but also grow independently. And I think that's, that's something that a lot of people are striving for right now. So, um, uplifting that.

Carlene Hempel: What a sweetheart. Sidney, thank you so much. Ellen, you should know better. She's Gen Z, TikTok and Instagram.

Sydney Woogerd: I know, I know.

Ellen Clegg: I, I have one at home.

Dan Kennedy: Well, thank you so much for coming on our podcast. We've been talking with my colleague at Northeastern, Carlene Hempel, and our great student, Sydney Woodyard. So thank you so much.

Carlene Hempel: It was our pleasure. Thank you so much. This was, uh, great fun.

Sydney Woogerd: Thank you so much, guys.

Ellen Clegg: So, Dan, I lived in North Carolina a long time ago, but for four years. And people moved from the coast to Asheville and to the mountain region to escape hurricanes which always hit the Carolinas. They always have. And it's very alarming to hear about the damage, uh, that a small river, a shallow river, could cause during this flooding that occurred.

Dan Kennedy: Yeah, it really is. And it just shows you that there is just no escape from climate change. As Carlene and Sidney were telling us. And as we were saying, there's no way of knowing whether any particular storm is related to climate change, but it does result in more storms and more severe storms. And it just seems like, uh, there's no way of getting away from these things. The remarkable job that our Northeastern students did in reporting this story perhaps will serve as a wake up call for other regions of the country. I certainly hope so. And now it's time for our quick takes on developments and, and local news. Ellen, as you well know, last month we held a free all day webinar on skills for folks involved in local news. It was called Audience AI and Events. And we had great workshop facilitators who presented in their areas of expertise and gave participants a chance to practice their skills. You and I had, ah, talked for quite a while about whether we should have an in person event or, or a webinar we finally opted for the webinar partly because we couldn't figure out how to provide everybody with lunch. But we made the right call. We had people from as far away as Toronto and India, as well as across New England and the US we wouldn't have been able to do that with an in person event. And I was really pleased with how it went.

Ellen Clegg: Yeah, and you and I both lurked on every session and I was really impressed with how engaged people were in trying to apply what they were learning in the workshops. I want to give a shout out here to Emily Turner from Boston.com her topic was audience development and engagement, which everybody was interested in. Professor John Wibby of Northeastern, who took on AI skills for local news organizations. And my friend Iris Adler, a longtime broadcast executive who told us about event planning for building community. She's highly involved in our Brookline uh, news project, and just a week earlier she led a live event for us at the Coolidge Corner Theater in Brookline.

Dan Kennedy: We also had a terrific keynote from Dan Lothian, who's the editor in chief and general manager of local news at gbh, which is one of Boston's two news focused public media operations. And Dan was joined by Lee Hill, who's the executive editor of GBH News. They were introduced by Professor Jonathan Kaufman, Director of Northeastern School of Journalism. Ellen, you and I both appeared on Zoom in front of a vibrant green screen designed by Claire Ogden. She's on staff at our partner organization, the center for Transformative Media. And as always, thanks to you, Ellen, what started as a book project has turned into a, ah, podcast, an online news service, public advocacy, and conferences like this one. And we've been a team every step of the way. And oh, I almost forgot, if you missed the webinar, the videos live on our website at, uh, WhatWorks News. Just look for What Works Webinar 2026 in the menu bar at the top of the screen.

Ellen Clegg: Thanks Dan for your kind words. And we look pretty groovy with that green backdrop. During the webinar, I provided an update on the projects we wrote about in our book, what Works in Community News. Now, as you know, our book was published in early 2024, and so it follows that there have been a number of changes and lessons learned. Here are five takeaways. Number one, Maintain fiscal discipline. As the saying goes, nonprofit is a tax status, not a business model. And business models are relentless. Revenue still needs to exceed expenses, whether that revenue comes from grants, small donations, paid sponsorship, or events. Number two, transparency is key. It's part of the bargain we make with our readers, our community, our donors. If you're a small community based nonprofit newsroom and your CEO is drawing a six figure salary that should be disclosed, you might also want to explain why 3. Write for your community, not for donors. At a for profit the firewall between the newsroom and advertisers is a given. This can be squishier for nonprofits who sometimes get grant funding to sponsor particular beats, but the firewall is just as important. Explain that to your readers. Early and often numbers 4 and 5 to quote authentically Local One of the early organizations of startup news projects, Local doesn't scale. And to quote the great Dale Anglin of Press Forward, Local doesn't scale. Collaborations are tempting, but should be approached carefully. You don't want to talk about the importance of an independent local press, but somehow be recreating a chain like Gannett

Dan Kennedy: and that's it for this week's show. Thanks for tuning in to this discussion of the state of media past, present and future. You can leave a news tip, comment or suggestion on our website at WhatWorks News. That's where you can also learn more about our book, what Works in Community News. And please rate us at Apple Podcasts.

Ellen Clegg: Our graphics are by Alison Booth. Our music is by Promiser, courtesy of Lucas Wilson. You can find Promiser on Apple Music and you can find us on Apple Podcasts and other platforms.