Financial Therapy, Money Trauma & Abundance Mindset: How to Rewrite Your Money Story

Speaker A: Foreign. Hi, welcome to the divorce vault.com where we guide couples and women to resources, templates and professionals who can help them before, during and after the divorce process. And today I'm speaking with Dr. Erica Rasher. She's this she chief financial wellness advisor at Beyond Finance. She's also a recognized leader in holistic financial therapy, which we'll talk more about. And helping people with money and empowerment and kind of taking control of your financial scenario. So today we're going to talk about from financial chaos to Abundance, how you can rewrite your money story and really start to understand, like what is a financial therapist or how we kind of go through some of these money traumas, if you will. So welcome. Erica, how are you today?

Speaker B: I am great. Thanks so much for having me. I'm just so excited to be here and chat.

Speaker A: I love this because I guess being in finance, you know, I kind of, I think people assume that I know everything about financial matters and we really help people transition. Right? You're, you're in a marriage, you're now going into a financially different scenario. And so I think today we're really talking about big picture transitions. You know, when things are happening, you know, kids could be leaving to go to college, um, you could be getting a different career. A lot of things could happen during the course of your life. But we hold these money stories and we hold these money traumas, either from how our parents have dealt with money, maybe how family members have dealt with money, and we sometimes perpetuate them in our relationships as well. And so when we first started talking, you were kind of like, well, I'm really more of, uh, like a financial therapist. And I was like, hm, tell me more, because I'm not, you know, like, just because you're in finance doesn't mean, you know, like, this is a big world. So tell us more about, like, how you got into this concept of financial therapy or what does that really mean, um, to you? Right, yeah.

Speaker B: You know, and that's the question I get asked most often when people ask me what I do for a living and I say, I'm a financial therapist. I'm like, what is that? I've never heard of that. And I don't think a lot of people have, you know. Um, and so what a financial therapist is, it's someone who really works with the emotional, relational, behavioral and cognitive aspects of our relationship and our experience with our money. And you're right, that kind of encompasses really kind of understanding where our money stories and our scripts and our values and our Beliefs all came from. So we can start, especially through these life transitions, really start identifying for ourselves what is our priorities, uh, versus the priorities that were given to us or that we inherited from, you know, our, our peer structures, our families, our social structures, our cultural, you know, influence all of those things and making our own way. And that's why we often talk about this concept of rewriting your money story is in that context of is this my story I'm telling, or am m I retelling the story of the generations or the folks that came in front of me?

Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that, you know, part of any time when you're in a transition period, you're reevaluating your life, you're. You're looking at different aspects. Like, I actually worked with a money therapist. I would, I guess you would say, um, in the past, I didn't call them that, but I was really, you know, trying to figure out not only in the businesses that I deal with, because I deal with a lot of family businesses that are transitioning as well, but there's this scarcity mindset that I think is a little bit different in, in generational kind of viewpoints of money. And I see sometimes in, you know, the baby boomer generation, or really the generation that is holding a lot of these business assets right in the transition, the parents are making a lot of money. Uh, it appears right to the rest of us, but it seems like they're still in the. It's never going to be enough. You know, they're still in this sort of scarcity mindset, you know, like, don't use it. You know, my parents were like, collect it, don't use it. You know, put the plastic on the, on the couches. You know, don't use the good china kind of. You know, it's pervasive in a lot of the ways that they operate. So what are you. How are you helping somebody sort of identify originally? Is this my money trauma? Is this an inherited money? Where do you go from there?

Speaker B: Yeah, and that is something so common and something I think so many of us can relate to, especially the china thing that I think that is like, one of the things that sticks out the most, like, what's with the china? Um, but regardless, you know, there, there are these things that really do carry forward generation to generation. So for older generations in particular, you know, money is security. Right. It means I don't want to spend. It means I can't spend it. It means I need to really hold on to my money in the event that Something happens, which, of course, they saw their parents go through, um, all of those types of things. And for these, these other generations, Gen X, millennials and getting into the Gen Z, you know, money often represents different things because of the way it has filtered down through the generations. And so, you know, we hear a lot about, you know, millennials and gen zers very much being, you know, I, I want to experience my money while I still can instead of waiting until retirement to experience life. And we see some of that transition. So I think there, there are two parts of the, the intergenerational money stories that we can learn from is one, we can learn a lot of valuable lessons. And okay, it is, it is a positive thing to save. It is a good idea to, you know, make sure that we're doing the things that provide comfort for us in very uncertain times, which is how long we're going to live. Nobody knows how long we're going to live. But there's also room to look at the flip side of that and say, okay, I understand that I need to have money to live, especially in retirement, all of those things, but what am I sacrificing in my present life in order to accomplish that? Because life isn't guaranteed. And I, I, uh, really think that, that people are starting to really kind of hook into that idea that it's, it's okay to enjoy your money, it's okay to prioritize yourself and the way you experience money. And I think that is something older generations really struggle with because of, um, the messaging they got. And as it has filtered, it has, you know, eased a little bit. But we, some, some of us younger fol look at the older generation and really kind of wonder how and why they have been able to persist in that mindset for so long because it was so deeply ingrained for them.

Speaker A: Well, and, and I think that, you know, I, I struggle with saying, okay, just focus on retirement. You know, like, even being in finance and dealing with a lot of financial professionals, it's like, okay, are you putting money aside? Are you, do you have enough to retire? And I was like, I don't care if I, I just want to live life, you know. And I think that that kind of brings up a lot of the fact that we have not been told to talk about money. Right? We have not been told there's like a lot of money shame that, that coexist, you know, And I see a lot of divorces where everybody has to face the financial reality, like, oh, I had no clue that my spouse was taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, you know, to finance the business. You know, I wasn't aware that I was spending, but it was accumulating, you know, credit card after credit card or credit card. Because there wasn't this conversation about money because it's, you know, debt is shameful. And people talk about, you know, like, everybody's talking about, oh, I'm, I'm ready for retire. You know, like, you hear all of everybody talking about a roadly picture, and you're like, I'm not there yet. Uh, you know, so how do, how do you see money shame show up kind of in, um, transitions or in families?

Speaker B: Oh, gosh. I mean, it shows up in so many different ways. And I think there's a really important distinction to make too, when it comes to shame, especially shame versus guilt. You know, when, when we're talking in the guilt guilt category, you know, we, we kind of regret. We have a little bit of like, I, I made a bad money choice. Uh, it wasn't my best, wasn't my best moment. That's where guilt comes in. Shame is different. Shame is not. I made a bad money move. Shame is. I am the bad money move. I am the financial mistake. I am the problem. And so there's a lot of. There's a huge lack of self forgiveness, of self trust involved in shame. And when you are in the, what I call the pit of shame, when you can't trust yourself, when you have no kindness or compassion for yourself and you're truly beating yourself up. And of course we know when you beat yourself up, um, you're actually beating yourself down. You stay down in that pit of shame. And it's very hard to get out of there until you can get to that point where you're like, okay, I am. I am not as bad with money as I, as I think I am. Because when it comes to the financial conditions we encounter in life, especially during transition periods, and that's a lot of who I work with, or it's people who have experienced the loss of a partner, whether it's divorce or death or the loss of a job or your health or mobility in some way, there's so much loss and grief involved in the changing of that financial identity, which of course compounds with the shame. And so you, uh, find yourself in this, this agony that everything feels wrong, nothing feels right, nothing is what it was. And for people who are in transition periods, it's so critical to bring awareness and some honesty and a, uh, different lens, this idea that, no, it's not what it was. It's not. And we can't go back. And so we have to find a new way forward. Um, and getting rid of that shame comes from bringing some awareness to some of the patterns, some of the things that maybe did go on, you know, between you and a partner. And maybe you can't go back and have those conversations with your, you know, former partner, but what you can do is start inviting people into your life who can have those conversations with money. Because there is so much financial infidelity that goes on. There's so much secret keeping that happens in relationships on top of the inability to just have conversations around money. Because those two are rooted in the intergenerational, uh, ideas that, you know, we, it's impolite to talk about money. We don't talk about money. And then you add things like shame and debt together. That is a conversation killer. Because a lot of people won't even talk about money when it's good, let alone when it's bad, especially in the context of a transition. So, yeah, you're the person who's like, okay, yeah, so I, uh, my, my family's failing, I'm getting a divorce. I'm, you know, 45. I have no romantic prospects. Uh, come to find out, I'm broke, he's broke. We're actually in a bunch of debt now. We have to separate households and it becomes this, like, crazy, you know, feeling weakness, where it's actually just a matter of structure and conditioning. Getting over that conditioning and doing some math around what we need to do to get out of the shame and get out of the hole.

Speaker A: Yeah. And we, we deal with kind of two different, completely different dichotomies, which is one, I have families that are having to face that they're, they're going to walk away and everybody's going to be taking some debt or there's not enough property. Like that is a financial reality that is hard. Like, uh, I'm sometimes saying to people, hey, I hope you can get out without any debt. Right. You might not get a lot of assets, but maybe if you can also get away from that debt and you can kind of start new. Right? Yes, I understand. You're 50 and you don't have a retirement plan and you have to go back in the job market. Like, I get that this is not a great picture, but maybe if you don't start in the whole, that's going to be good now. And that's one space that we can talk about, one other space that we talk about that I see a lot as well, is that we are under financial coercive control. So we didn't have a clue that we actually have abundance. But we've been, you know, very tight, uh, uh, budget for every month, you know, shopping at Aldi, you know, making sure that every dollar, having somebody look at our receipts to make sure that we are, you know, not spending too much to. Now I'm going to come into millions and I don't have a great freight. Like, I'm concerned because of what this person has told me that I can't manage money. I'm concerned I'm going to lose it when I get it kind of situation. And I'd like to kind of talk about that because that, uh, is a unique perspective that everybody would be like, oh, wan. You're going to come into money and it's going to be so hard for you to handle. But that financial independence, if you will, whether you have to start over or you have to figure out how to manage is terrifying. Right. You know, so how do I start to accept some of that reality going forward and, and, and position myself so that I'm now responsible for the results also going forward? Right, yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, um, you know, and it's so interesting about that because I've worked with a lot of people, um, divorce women in particular, who have had that exact experience where they have been monitored financially, bullied. I love the introduction of coercive control into this. They've had to account for every dime. Every dime. And then they come to find out that there is a lot of money here. And then all of a sudden this, you know, sudden, you know, financial windfall, this, this financial freedom. Right. That everybody, I think, wouldn't mind having suddenly becomes a prison, uh, but a different kind of prison than the one they were living in. And I've seen so many women say, you know, I love the idea of having millions at my disposal and being able to, you know, provide for myself and, you know, my children. That. But I feel like it's just another kind of trap. I don't know how to manage this money. I don't know how to keep. How to keep it. You, you touched on a really important thing there. And a lot of it does have to do with the environment they were in forever, however many years in their marriage or in their relationship, um, or business partnership, whatever that looks like, to where they were told to, you know, account for every minute thing, and were probably also given the impression that they were not good with money. And so that's why they had to be monitored. And that's why, you know, they, they come into this money and they're like, I just don't have the confidence. That's the one thing I hear all the time is I don't have the confidence. And women in general, um, you know, they, they are very good at managing the day to day finances of a household. And so I think it's very important for, for us to really emphasize that, hey, you've already been doing this, you are an expert bookkeeper when you are looking at this. And so we're just going to, I suggest, uh, we're going to scale this at a different level. That feels better for you. It doesn't mean that you have to change the way you live your life. It doesn't mean you have to, you know, spend the money. But let's put you in a position to where you build increasing confidence towards the investment part of your money or managing your money, or choosing the right people to be on your team to help you support, help support you through this transition in the best of times. Research has shown that women, um, lack a lot of confidence when it comes to the investing side as compared to their male counterparts. And that's when financial situations are good. But research also shows that they're very, very good at managing the day to day. And so if we can take those two things together into perspective and emphasize that, hey, you are already really, really, really good at stretching dollars or keeping, you know, um, track of stuff, let's focus on that. Let's not make too many changes. Let's just put this money over here, wherever over here looks like. Let's, let's get some people on your team. Whether that's a financial planner or an advisor or a coach like myself, somebody who can help you work through both the, the, you know, brass tax of it, the dollars in, the dollars out, you know, and then the emotional side of it. So you can have a transition plan to where you don't lose that money and you don't feel like that money has now become an unwanted burden, whether it's emotional or financial. And of course we don't want you blown through it either. And that brings up another part of something I see all the time is that we often have a, ah, very, very acute desire to do emotional spending when we're going through transition. So some of us are emotional eaters, some of us use substances to cope, um, sometimes it's all of the above, but, but many, many people use spending to, to fill those holes, um, that we feel because when we are going through a transition, like a divorce, gosh, there's. And I've been through a divorce, and, you know, I can speak very much from the heart on this is, you know, a divorce for many people, just is the utter representation of the crushing of all. All of your dreams. You know, it's the. The family that. That didn't quite, you know, be the thing you wanted it to be. It's the. The not growing old with the person you. You thought you were going to grow old with and. And then all of the other circumstances around that. But it really very much is a grief process. And I have seen clients who've lost spouses due, you know, to sickness or death or whatever that looks like, and those responses are very similar, is that any inheritance that they receive is often blown through within a year. I worked with a client just earlier this year, his wife had died, um, and he blew through, like, almost a million dollars in a year. Now he's, like, selling cars, like, trying to get, like, the cars he owns, not like on a. In a dealership, but it's one of those things where you have to be very, very careful in the steps you take and knowing that there is a very deep emotional side to this and you can kind of teeter on the edge. And if you don't choose the right people to support you. And again, open. Going back to what we were talking about and having conversations around money, disaster can ensue.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, you know, I think that one of the things that you were talking about, it also has to do with discernment, you know, confidence about the money, but discernment that, you know, you're. You're. Regardless of what the money picture looks like, you're headed into a new life. And, you know, had a couple, um, a couple families where the spouse is coming into quite a bit of money and been very unaware. You know, it's almost like hitting the lottery.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I said, you know, you're gonna have to shift out of what your old life was.

Speaker B: Mm.

Speaker A: It's not gonna be the same people. It's not gonna be the same friends. It's not gonna be that. You know, like, if people look at, you know, money a certain way, you're also going to look at it in that way or feel bad about it. You're not going to be able to talk about it. And, you know, money is kind of energy, and it's really only one form of abundance if you really look at it, you know, like, I mean, people have given me trips that's abundance. I didn't pay for anything. You know, I have my health, which I deal with a lot of people that have health concerns. So I'm like, that's abundance. You know, I have family, I have kids that I, you know, do actually enjoy being in their presence and they are teenagers, so they are at that worst time. Um, you know, so like, I have a lot of abundance around me, but we focus on the money. And you know, you've even talked about how high earners also have some difficulty with, you know, um, kind of the debt side of it. And again, not talking about, because oh my gosh, you, you're, you're having all this money coming in, you're driving the Range Rover, you know, you're living in the great house, the, the outside looks great, but the anxiety about like, oh my God, am I going to be able to pay for this? You know, like is, is crushing in a lot of, a lot of high wage earners. Right? Ah, neurodivergent or, or otherwise, you know, what are you talking to them about? Like, how can I get out of this toxic cycle of buying things, you know, or, or finding joy out of that when I need to be scaling back? Maybe, you know, because I'm always like, that's not abundance. We need to just make more. Right, right. So how do you focus people when they're in that confusion of the money vision?

Speaker B: So the one thing I always start with when I'm working, so in my, in my private practice, I work a lot mostly with high earners who find themselves in these cycles of uh, uh, debt where it's okay, I'm making 300 plus a year and next thing you know I have, you know, a bonus. But that, that bonus actually goes to pay off everything I put on a credit card, you know, throughout the entire year. Right. And that is so common and there's so much shame around that. And you know, I think when you talk to the, the general population about that, it's like, well, what a, what a problem for them to have. And at the end of the day it's, it's still a huge problem because it doesn't make people feel good. And it's like, I'm making all this money but I can't keep it in the way I want to. I can't put money aside for savings. Um, I can't tell you the amount of people I have met and worked with who have million dollar homes but not enough money to completely furnish them. Like, it boggles my mind. But it is for so many people in that high earner capacity. They really do feel that need to, you know, keep up with their social circles. And it's, it's a different level than keeping up with the Joneses because it's also a mindset. It's not just the material stuff. It's about showing up with that like gravitas and that charisma that you kind, you can't fake with material stuff. So there's a lot of, you know, underlying spending that comes with that, you know, so subtle wealth cues that, that show up in public. And for these folks it becomes very difficult to try and manage that appearance, manage the material level of it, plus the emotional level which, you know, are connected very deeply and then try and get ahead in their financial lives. And so the thing I always start with there is, uh, you have to know that nobody cares about your money as much as you do. Nobody cares about your money as much as you do. And it's not, you know, the, the parents of the, you know, kids that, you know, your kids go to school with. It's not your co workers. And what's interesting to me is I find that there is a lot of arguing for our limitations when we're talking about scarcity mindset amongst high earners is that uh, the biggest fear is that they won't fit in, is that they won't have that social capital that plugs a hole. I was talking about, you know, spending, plugging holes. This is a different type of hole that shows up. This is the, the hole of belonging. This is the whole of feeling that I have made it. And um, so many people I work with that have made it, have made it financially, but they have not made it to the point to where they can hang on to their money because they are still stuck in the uh, they're still listening to the voices of the, the generations and all that conditioning that they got. That's money. There's never enough money. There's never. And that's a lot of what I see with, with those groups of people. And it's, I wouldn't say it's necessarily easy to break out of that cycle, but it's not hard once you realize where that's coming from and where to happen when we're talking about money stories, this is where it's, it's coming from because so many folks have been conditioned to think that the money automatically means that you get buy into the rooms that they couldn't get into or the rooms that they were taught were the Rooms that they should be into. Um, and they do that at their own sacrifice.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: And nobody else cares. I mean, they might care socially, but they're not the ones trying to fund their retirement. Right.

Speaker A: Well, and I think that this is where a lot of families are in divorce. There's one spouse that could be the high wage earner who could be going through these struggles of trying to get my family in the right places, the right schools, the right, you know, country clubs, the right lifestyle. But they know that some of the stuff in their closet, the skeletons in the closet would be like, hey, you don't have any savings, you know, like you have barely any retirement, but you are dry. You know, like you do have like three high end car. Like we get it. So it's almost like then you have the spouse that could be staying at home oblivious to all this, just thinking like everything's operating fine and you, you still have this disconnect, you know, so. And I think what everybody should realize is that everybody's going through a financial money trauma. It just is a different version typically, you know, and what I've tried to lean towards is that the money is energy. And how do you create abundance from energy? How do you be abundance? How do you operate as if the money is going to flow in? And obviously I, I have to take actions towards the money flowing in. Right. Of whatever the universe kind of shows me and, and things like that. But how do we start to have an abundant mindset? Because I think sometimes that goes first, like the abundance doesn't come. Um, and you're like, oh, I feel great. Like you're still, like, I still see people with millions in the bank and they're like, miserable. What if I'm on the street? Like, right, it could all be gone tomorrow, you know, And I'm like, whoa, slow down. Like, that's not how I'm gonna act when I have millions in the bank.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: That's probably what they thought too. Right? So how do we, how do we shift our mindset so that we invite that abundance in?

Speaker B: Absolutely. So you're right. You know, I think so many people strive and strive and strive and they, they put the abundance off. Like, I will feel abundant when I am making, you know, multiple six figures. I will feel abundant when, you know, I've got the house, the, the partner, the, the cars, the, the beach house, whatever, whatever that is. They, they put that off. And so they neglect what's going on in the present moment. And if you cannot, and I say this with 100% full chest. If you cannot feel abundant in your present situation, you will never feel abundant. Ever. I've never seen anybody, ever. I've been doing this work for 21 years. I've never had anybody, you know, um, show up like that. Like, it's. You have to be abundant, and you have to work to find the things that are representative of abundance. You mentioned it earlier. You touched on this. You know, abundance takes different forms. It's. It's our health, it's our, you know, relationships. It's the. It's our pets, it's all of these other things. It's our ability to maybe have a slow morning with a cup of coffee on our deck with no interruptions. Um, it's, you know, watching our teenagers grow and develop. And sometimes we might, you know, be like, I just. I can't today. But I'm so grateful I'm here and I'm alive for this stage and here for them. Like, there are so many parts of abundance, and this is actually what I refer to as glimmers. Um, I do a lot of work with my clients on financial triggers and glimmers. And if you are in a spot where you're dealing with a challenging financial position, whether that is a limited mind or, um, you know, limiting beliefs and mindset there to where you're stuck in that scarcity mindset, you can't seem to find abundance. One of the things I recommend, um, is that you, you pay attention to the pattern, so you pay attention to the things that are triggering you. So maybe it's every time you go to, to a grocery store and you feel overwhelmed by all the choices there and you have overspent once again, and you're beating yourself up in the car about it. Notice that. Notice the way you are feeling when you were in the grocery store. Um, that's a very small example of that. But on the flip side of that, there's the glimmer there. And so it is noticing. Well, I might have gone into the grocery store and I might have overspent, but I made sure that I stuck to mostly the essentials. I didn't fill my cart entirely up with junk or whatever that looks like, and trying to find that silver lining there. The thing that is so interesting in triggers and glimmers work is that triggers are blatantly obvious. We have been conditioned to look for those triggers. And, and I think in, in so many ways, and this might be, uh, a little bit of a hot take, is we stay in our victimhood because we are so conditioned to notice the triggers. And I'm not, you know, I am a person who, you know, is so supportive of, you know, identifying what these triggers are. But if you continue to live in a trigger only environment where that is your only stimulus that you can recognize, you're going to stay stuck. And so we have to train ourselves to look for the glimmers. You have to, for many people, you have to train yourself to, to be on the lookout. You have to put a glimmer's BOLO out basically, and say, this is what I need to actively search for. These triggers are going to show up and I'm going to notice them automatically, but I'm going to have to work to find the abundance every single day. And the way I recommend clients do that, especially if they are definitely working, you know, uphill with the abundance mindset, is you start writing that down. You get a cheapy notebook, or my case, I like to get a really beautiful notebook, you know, um, and you just write that stuff down. It doesn't have to be so organized, you know, it bends your brain. But you do, you know, do a line and say, all right, today's triggers, the T and the G triggered here. I saw cardinals outside on my deck today. That was pretty cool. I like that. I felt at peace at that moment. Or I paid my electric bill without worrying about it, or, or I, uh, found out, you know, the passwords to our investment accounts today, that was a win. You know, keeping a running list of that and every client I've ever worked with, ever done this exercise, is that over just a short week to maybe three weeks, that glimmer side gets much, much bigger than the trigger side. And that's where that abundance starts to come in, because you're starting to settle and ground yourself in a reality that you didn't think existed just a couple weeks prior. Because again, that, that stimuli has to be shifted.

Speaker A: And I think, you know, I think that that's something that we also inherited from the older generations. Is that negative? You know, like, we're always kind of like, oh, uh, see, I told you I wasn't gonna have enough to do that. See, I, I knew something else, some other bill was gonna come and take my, you know, raise or my bonus or something like that. I think that that's just a natural, you know, and instead of focusing on, I guess, you know, the positive side, it's really in finding the joy in, in the day to day as opposed to that. Because you're right, that trigger, that's going to be very Obvious. The focus on the glimmer. And where I think that this shifts us to is that, you know, in. In my work, in spiritual or energy work has been that you will experience abundance when you are abundance when you exhibit, when you mirror, you know, like, energetically. I'm putting all of my attention into the glimmers so that the glimmers will happen more often, right? So that. That those things or. Or I will end. You know, part of this is my belief is that nothing is negative. So it's all just information. It's all just like, oh, okay, so maybe I wasn't supposed to have that coffee today. You know, like, maybe I. And sometimes you already know it, right? Like yesterday I was gonna get this candy at the store. I love candy. Love candy. Like old candy, new candy. And my daughter was just like, ugh, those type. That candy is gross, Mom.

Speaker B: I know.

Speaker A: I was like, you know what? You're kind of right. Like, it was almost like my, my, you know, like my intuition brain, you know, like she was my voice of reason because I was like, you know, you're right. I don't really need this candy. Like, you know, I should. And I did. I put it back because I was like, the universe, sometimes the universe speaks to you really loudly, right? Uh, like sometimes it's just your inside voice. Sometimes another voice comes out and it's like, mom, that's. That candy's nasty. And I was just like, you're right. I'm gonna put that back. I'm not going to. I'm going to listen to what the universe is telling me. So in. In some capacity, it's. How do we get into the energy of abundance? And abundance is flow. Cash flow coming in and cash flow coming out is part of abundance, you know, and so we focus on the glimmers. Um, where else could we focus if it really, like, if it really is that bad? Like I'm. I'm really coming out of this divorce or, you know, my spouse leaving, passing away, and we are not in a good financial state spot, right? You know what, how is the conversation a little bit different in those situations where I need to. At 50 or 55, right? Oh, I'm supposed to be retiring at 55 and I'm actually getting divorced and I, uh, have nothing. Right? How. What, what does the conversation start in that situation where I feel like I have nothing else? Like, who cares? Let's go get more credit card debt right here. It's already bad. Like, yeah, what do I, what does it matter kind of situation?

Speaker B: So you know, when you're talking a little bit about the spirituality aspect of that, I think this is an important piece to. To also connect here, because when you are feeling particularly bad about a financial situation, it becomes very difficult to see any sort of. Or feel any sort of positivity. And nobody here, I think, is about toxic positivity. I don't get that vibe from you. I know I don't get that vibe for my. But it is, you know, trying to understand that there, you know, and if you've ever done any, um, you know, work with, like, the hermetic principles from the Cabalian, you know, there's this concept of polarity, you know, that, you know, everything's got, you know, an opposite. And so the things are on a spectrum. So if things here are really bad right now, there's also reality where things are good and it exists over here. And there's all this kind of gray area across the spectrum. And so because life swings the way it does, if there is polarity here, there's going to be polarity here, which means that it's going to have to. And we can get into that a little bit more if we need to. But, like, it's going to swing from time to time and there's going to be movement across that pole. And so understanding initially that this is a temporary space, this is where you happen to fall on that pole. This is just right now, it doesn't. It. It has to go this way at some point, you know. And so, uh, getting to that understanding, I think is important, but also helping clients step back and observe a little bit more differently and doing some of that inner work first. Uh, you know, again, money is an inside job. I will die on that hill. And it's so important to tune yourself into the frequency of, um. This isn't going to suck forever. Um, also known as abundance, but later. But there's steps to this, right? And so it's being able to quiet your mind, ground your soul a little bit, and be able to listen for those intuitive hits to where, okay, everything around me feels out of my control. But on the inside, I am clearing that external noise, like tuning yourself in, like, to a different radio frequency. You might be, you know, uh, AM station right now, but you need to be an FM station to be able to tune into the different side of that pole to catch that abundance as it's coming in. And that tuning takes work. And so the first part is bringing awareness to how you need to be tuned, how you are, you know, taking care of yourself. I am a huge, huge proponent of meditation. That is one of the quickest ways to quiet your mind and be able to tune into that frequency of, um, to being able to. To hear your inner voice, give you guidance. And that is important. And it doesn't mean that we sit there and we meditate or we journal and we just let the universe bring stuff to it. That's not how this works. The universe will give you that information, but you have to be able to intuit it. You have to be able to interpret it and say, okay, I need this. This is. I got this piece of information because it's telling me I need to act. Over here. We don't just sit we. But we have to listen to the messages. We have to hear them first before we know what the next right steps are. And if we are in a state of constant emotional and mental chaos, we can't hear those things. And I have seen on many, many, many occasions where I have recommended grounding exercises or meditation or doing some yoga. I'm a big yoga. Yoga fan, um, whatever that looks like for you. And connecting with that, uh, that oneness in yourself. And that advice has gone completely out the window. And results don't change. We stay very stagnant. And it's very hard to make critical financial moves if you're not okay on the inside or you try and do things before you're healed. It's like, almost like getting in a relationship with somebody coming right out of a divorce, you know, uh, good luck.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think an interesting piece to this is that, you know, when. When you're stuck in the same sort of way of life, then it's very hard when you are shown a picture to do something different. Right? And you're like, yeah, but, uh, I don't know. That seems a little, you know, concerning. Like. Yes, you know, like I'm getting all these signs to try something different, to go in a different path. But I'm. I'm still defaulting to the old path. And I've worked with a lot of spiritual gurus actually, over the course of time, you know, to deal with my own grief in various, um, things that have happened in my life. But one of the things that I learned from one of the spiritual coaches was that imagination is highly attached to manifestation. And if you can start, you know, and imagination is free. Okay. If you. If you have a hard time meditating, um, meditation kind of gets you quiet so that you can start to hear your own voices. But imagination can also be like Daydreaming, like sitting on the back porch and imagining what would it feel like if you could just go book any trip that you wanted to today? And because true abundance is being able to do whatever you want to do whenever you want to do it, right? So it means that I can take a break and go for a walk because I run my own business, right? That's abundant. But if you get into the imagination side of it and you say, okay, how would I operate if I were a true millionaire? Right? Mhm. I really didn't have to worry about money, right? What would it feel like? What would I be doing if, if I did this? Because every time I go on a trip, I'm always like, oh my God, I love my life. Like, yeah, oh yeah. Like, it was so amazing. So, you know, like that imagination space of it. How does it feel to go fly first class, you know, to Europe and take your family on a, on a month vacation with a villa in Greece, you know, like, oh God, that feels so amazing. Okay, well, what are some of the steps that I can do to get there? Right? Then you dial back, okay, well, I probably need to have 10 grand. Okay, well what, what does that look like? Like what, what would I have to give up over here or not, right? Like what would I have to create that I could have that abundance? You know, like, what if. And again, this is where I think our limiting beliefs go back to our parents. Our parents said, well, you need to work hard and you need to save a thousand dollars over, uh, every month for 10 months. And I was like, yeah, no, how, how, how would it work if somebody gave me $10,000 this month? Like, uh, I wanna, I wanna pull this in faster, right? How do I get to be a millionaire, you know, next month? Okay. And your, your trigger brain is gonna be like, oh, that's not possible. Nobody can do that. Whereas your glimmer brain would be like, well, okay, what if it were like, maybe I meet Prince Charming? No, not another person. Okay, Nobody's gonna come save the day. Like, how do you do this? Right? Um, so I never looked at imagination and manifestation like that, or I thought about it like that.

Speaker B: I'm 100, very much that way. You know, I think, and I loved what you said about, you know, voices of our parents coming in. You know, it's. Stop the daydreaming. You know, it's never going to happen. It's, it's the crushing of childhood dreams is what it is. You know, children are naturally imaginative, imaginative. And they come up with the most amazing, amazing things. And, you know, I've done a lot of spiritual work myself. I'm a voracious reader. But as you're, as you're talking about this, there's, there's three. There are three authors that come to mind, and I'm sure you're familiar with all of them. Neville Goddard, um, Joseph Murphy and Florence Scoville Shin. Um, you know, Joseph Murphy, he's got the wonderful book called the Power of Imagination. Uh, Neville Goddard has this wonderful, uh, imagination technique called sats. Ah, it's state akin to sleep. Um, and it's. You start imagining as you're. As you're kind of lulling yourself to sleep. So in that quietness, like, as you're like kind of falling to sleep, you can also do it kind of in a meditative state as well. Uh, but you imagine that, that life, you know, what that might feel like. And for a lot of people, it's really hard, um, to. To put themselves in a position where they've never flown first class, so they don't know what that experience is like. Um, but what they can do is the next time they fly, they get. Because if you've ever flown first class, depending on the airline, sometimes the service is like, phenomenal. And sometimes it's not all that different than flying coach. And so, but regardless of how you are flying, you're still just flying. So you can, you know, romanticize that, that trip and coach the next time you take one and just pretend that you are in first class. And, you know, maybe you bring a couple extra bucks with you and you order, you know, uh, a cocktail or something like that, and then you pretend that you didn't pay for it. And you, you do all of that work and it, it sounds like you're playing pretend or you're playing dress up, but you, you are. But the point isn't to, you know, just fake it till you make it. That that's not the point here. You have to feel it real. You have to feel it deep within yourself. And if you have to pretend and imagine like you are a child, my goodness, do it. And then. Florence Scovel Shin My favorite book of all time is hers. It's called the Game of Life and how to Play It. And it's just a wonderful quick read. She's a phenomenal metaphysician. Um, and she's got this concept called digging, digging your ditches. And so this is the idea of setting, basically setting a place setting for the life that you're inviting in over for dinner. It's, it's. And she actually uses that for, for, as an example, um, a woman in her book, she was describing it as the woman had lost her partner in some way, they had broken up. And the woman was distraught over this. And so Florence was like, you know, hey, set a place to setting for him every night. Eventually he came back. You know, uh, it might have been a different man that she was cooking dinner for. I can't remember exactly. But long story short, it's this idea of um, you know, manifesting a, an apartment. Maybe it's an apartment in a high cost of living area where maybe it's a rent controlled apartment and the chances are just minimal. The idea is that you maybe buy a blanket or something that would go in this apartment in combination of imagining that this is yours. And so having some connection into digging your ditches, preparing for this thing that you're trying to invite in is really important. The, the big thing is, is understanding that you have to actively use your imagination. You have to be in a position where you can feel those intuitive hits. And you also have to be willing to operate on faith, um, that God is never too late. And whether you want to call it God, the universe, whatever, but it's always right on time. But a lot of people just like the imagination has been crushed by the souls of many. Uh, because adulting the idea of this has also been kind of like, you know, pushed to the side of it. So, you know, really understanding that this is, this is all deeply tied together, that we, we need to bring it all in a space where it's cohesive and that things might look different now doesn't mean they're going to look like that forever. And sometimes we just have to, to believe that it's going to happen. No ifs, ands or buts.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean it really is taking blind faith to a whole new level. That you have blind folks faith that you are going to be successful and abundant and wealthy and all of those things. Now the, the interesting part about this that I, I don't think people talk about as much is that going back to you are going to second guess what happened. So when, when I want, you know, to travel, um, first class, and I'll give you a good example or a story, um, I want to travel first class. I don't necessarily want to pay for it. You know, like, I want it to come to me in some capacity. I have to be open to different things. Like if you want a drastically different life, you need to make Drastically different, you know, decisions. And so when you then are, you know, deal with a decision, like we. We were in a situation where we were flying somewhere, and if we went one way, we would go into the storm. And if we went kind of this around about way, we would be going out of the storm, right? So I have a business partner and they're at another desk trying to get us into the storm. And I'm like, no, we're going out of the storm. And the guy says, well, one of you is going to fly first class then, and I can get you out of the storm, but the other one isn't. And I was like, yeah, don't care. I'm gonna go first class. They can go like they're trying to get us into the storm. Let them go to the storm. I don't care. You know, like, this is cra. Like, I can't continue to do this. And it was a very. It was actually not a great partnership. The partnership actually devolved after that, uh, the, the whole trip. But I knew it in that point that I was like, no, I have to make different decisions. They're actively leading us into a storm. I'm actively going to make the right decision. And then I get to go first class. Heck yeah. Okay, this. So what ended up happening is I ended up seeing. Sitting next to somebody who didn't talk to me the entire time. And I had never been in first class, so I was like, I'm not going to talk to them. I mean, and they, you know, were Versace up, uh, Gucci up, uh, you know, like I'm sitting there with my rag attack, whatever that I came with, you know, barely knowing what to do in first class. Right. I was a lot younger. And, uh, and at the end of the trip, he said, what are you coming to San Diego for business or pleasure? And I was like, is he talking to me? Like, what's going on? And I was like, um, business, but I'm hoping a little bit of pleasure. And he's like, okay, where are you staying? And I said, where I was staying? And he's like, you need to eat at that restaurant. That's one of the best restaurants in the hotel in San Diego. And I was like, what? Uh, a, uh, hotel restaurant? Probably not. So I was like, okay, I clocked it. Literally. That's all it is. Like, have a great trip. We got off the plane. That's it. That's what was. And. And again, you know, that information, if I had just said, well, I know hotel restaurants suck, right? I'm not gonna eat there anyway. That's what it, uh. That's what I've always done, right? Always done. Always know I go by that. So instead, the whole time, like, when I got there, I was like, okay, we have to make sure. So I tried three different times with different people to eat at the restaurant, right? And all of them were like, no, we're going out, we're going here, we're going there. Finally, one day for lunch, I get somebody to. To sit down. I. We ended up getting sat next to somebody, a coach that I actually ended up working with for years. And it was hilarious because when she sat down and I looked at her and I was like, hey, what. What do you do? Like, are you guys here for the same conference? And she said, yes. And I was like, I feel like I need to meet you. And she's like, me too. That if we dialed it all the way back, if that storm had not happened, if I had not been willing to go and literally be separated from my whole group and be like, I don't care when they get there. I'm getting to where I to need. I need to go, right? If I had not made any of. If I didn't even make a decision to sit at a restaurant that I knew, like, I. I have no idea if the food was good to this day, but I knew that I was supposed to be there to talk to this particular person. And. And the story has a lot of other pieces that literally pushed me to do this, right? My partner not willing to eat at the restaurant, which was fascinating, yet this random person who I had been, you know, therefore, um, and everything, and even the coach was in the bathroom. So I didn't even know. We were just being nice to the person sitting by themselves, like, hey, do you want to join us? You know, that would be so kind. And then this other person kind of comes out of. Out of the blue. So I think that you have to be able to stop questioning when the. The. The interesting things happen, right? Because that could be like, oh, I want a hundred thousand dollars to be given to me this month. It might be that I go down a. A, uh, street, uh, and it's blocked, and I got to go another way. I got to go to a different, you know, restaurant. I got to go to a different grocery store. I run into somebody, and they say, hey, I got this project for you. It's, uh, a hundred thousand dollars, but we got to move fast. Can you move fast? And I'm like, wow, yes. What if I Said, no, I gotta go. This. I. I go to this same grocery store every single week. I can't. I can't. I can't not do that. So it. It takes you going out of your comfort zone and not making things good or bad, right? Starting to just see them as information is like, oh, you want me to go, right? Okay, here's this new adventure. Okay, what are we gonna learn here?

Speaker B: You know, because this is such a critical part of the manifestation process, too, is we. We put out all these requests to the universe, like, I want $100,000. I want this. I want this new partner. I want this new job. I want this house. I want, I want, I want, I want. And good. Ask for all the things. Do it. Uh, do it. But detach yourself from the how. If you try and control how it shows up, it's never going to manifest. We can't ask for the universe to give us something and then, I suspect, to tell the universe how to give it to us. We have to let that unfold. And, and I love your story for so many reasons. And I. And I wonder, and if I'm going to give homework to anybody who's listening is think back to times in your life where you ended up in a position where you wanted to be. And think back the. The way you got there. Was it something that you dismissed as coincidence or serendipity? Um, I don't believe in coincidence. I think these things happen for a reason. Because at some point you put out a request to the universe that you wanted XYZ to happen. And it was in that moment, you didn't know it, but you would let go. You had let go of the how. And that is such a beautiful and important part of this process in general, is letting go of, you know, all of our preconceived notions of. Of how things are supposed to come in. Right? You know, again, going back to family stuff. You know, you get money by working hard. You get money by, you know, paying your dues and all that. And. And I think there's, you know, some truth to some of those things. But the way somebody pays their dues versus somebody else, you know, uh, whether or not they're, you know, spiritually inclined or otherwise, that's going to look very different. Because there's easy paths and there's not easy paths, and you get to choose which one is the easy path. You just have to be open to the idea that there is actually an easy path to do this. It doesn't mean, again, you just sit and do nothing. But there is an easy path to some of this stuff, as long as you are open to alternatives.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, and I think it's also, you know, the same conversation is not attaching to the outcome. So however it happens, it happens. But I think that if, you know, like. Because the other day I was like, seriously, universe, like, I just need like a m. Million dollars, like to just plop in like a hundred. I want it like a hundred thousand dollar months, you know, and we're doing. And literally it was like the universe said, well, you're creating content, you're having people buy certain things, so do more of that, you know, like, continue. That's working how, you know, like. And I had envisioned, okay, somebody calls me out of the blue, offers me this great project, is like, you're brilliant, so we're just gonna overpay you for doing stuff. And I was like, yes, because. And again, I still unattached from that being the actual way, but I at least visualize a pathway to that, right? Because once you start to break your brain, because everybody like Melissa, you're not just gonna wish a hundred thousand dollars comes in, you know, next month as revenue. I was like, no, no, you're not gonna do it. I'm absolutely gonna do it. I was not built for the hard life. Like, m. I gotta be honest with you. Like, my landscaper was like, hey, you need like a couple grand to do some of this stuff. And I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna do it myself. And I was like, no, no, no, I wasn't built for that either. So I need to have it come in from other sources to pay somebody else to do it. Because, uh, that doesn't seem like my best and highest life, right? To be trimming up all that stuff and pulling weeds, like, not, not for it. It's gonna wreck my nails. And I'm. I, um, love my nails. Right? So let's, let's prioritize. But that's where I think that, you know, like, if you can imagine it, then you create. You. You are open to like the path being different. You're open to doing different things, to have a different outcome. And then you're open to it actually happening easier than you imagine, as opposed to harder. And that I think could be a recipe. Like, I love everything that you've talked about today has been amazing. Um, what, what do you think would be like your parting remark. And I think you gave some homework already. But what would be, you know, if I'm sitting here in Any of these situations, and I'm like, nodding my head, I'm like, yep, I got that issue. Yep, I got that issue. What can we start doing today that is going to get us there? And how would I work with you if I was like, Dr. Erica is like preaching to the choir right now. Right? What would it take for me to get started? How do I work with you? What's the next steps? You know, what does this look like? Like I'm in. I just, I. I'm also don't know what to do next. Right.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So in terms of parting remarks, you know, anytime you're going through a big transition in your life, divorce, death, otherwise, um, you have to remember that there is absolutely a financial identity tied to all of those other identities that we hold. So, you know, your identity might have been wife, mother, co worker, all of those things. And you had a financial identity tied to all those different masks, all those different forms and shapes that we take. And when those identities are rocked, our financial identities will also be rocked because they're, you can't separate the two. They're all very dynamic and they're all multidimensional. But when we are able to say, okay, this identity that I held so close to my chest for so long, for 20, 30 years or five years, whatever that was, that identity doesn't exist anymore and it hurts really bad. And then the financial identity that was associated with that, that doesn't exist anymore. And that hurts really bad. Knowing that there's a path forward, um, to help you really move through. Identifying the way your identity is shifting can help you create a much more strong and authentic one going forward. And it might not be, you know, to anything you envisioned it would be. Right. You know, we, we again, we have these ideas in our head that, you know, I want this new version of me to look like xyz and it's got to look like that. It's inviting that awareness and that faith into your life that things can look different and they can also not be what you expected and both can be true. And that it's a little bit of an adventure. You know, this is. Shifting identities is emotional healing too. It's the releasing of shame, it's releasing of prior identities, and it helps you rebuild that self worth and that agency and trust and that confidence that you maybe didn't know you had lost or that you're, you're trying to rebuild or any of those things that go along with it when you are transitioning. I, I like to use the analogy of, um, you know, Phoenix Rising, you know, we, we have to kind of burn it all down. And if you are willing to burn it all down and you're not overly concerned with how it gets burned down, other than it's going to, and the results are going to be really good, you will be that right, that Phoenix that Rises. And if, if you're somebody who, and I always recommend having a support team, whether that is, you know, a coach or therapist like myself or someone like you, there's all these wonderful people you can bring into your life. And I think we do best as humans having, having a team and you know, we might have people that are on our team for a little while or a long while or whatever that looks like, but humans aren't meant to do hard things alone. And money identity, especially in the context of shifting other identities that we, we, we have and we've held on to for so long and then we're grieving requires a different type of support. So if, if you're listening and you're resonating and you would be interested in working with me, feel free to, to email me@ericarashergmail.com or you can, um, give me a ring or text me at 314-415-0322. Um, it'll cost you nothing to talk to me initially. We'll, we'll do an intro call. We'll see if we're a good fit and if we're not, you know, it's one of those things. I have so many great people I have encountered in my 21 years and I have a whole arsenal of people with incredible expertise all over. And I will always tell you what I think is best for you. Um, and just know that, you know, you're not alone. That's the last piece of this, this is something that experienced by so many people and unfortunately the money identity and the, the post divorce identity. Speaking of somebody who went through both of those things, oh my God, like you don't know who you are. And it's, it's brutal. It is, it's really hard. Um, but you, you don't have to do it by yourself. I, I did a lot of it myself and I regret, I regret a lot of that now.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I, and I think it's validation to everyone who's listening to this is like we're not talking about, you know, healing from having money, from not having money from the past, from the future. Like we're, we're really trying to make people understand that this is a natural process to go about and reevaluate your view of money, reevaluate that maybe if no one's talked to you about this, that they're, that everyone is feeling it and we're thinking about it. And regardless of what people's position is in life, like, we're all struggling with this right now. Because I don't think prior generations talked about, you know, like, obviously, because they, they dealt with it very different, you know, And I see my kids deal with money very different than how my parents did, you know, and so what legacy are we leaving? How are we mirroring, you know, you know, I, I talk a lot about respecting money. So if you're going to spend it, if you're going to save it, that, ah, you are respecting an intention with the money. I, I, I say the biggest issue that you should always look at is when you're losing money. Right. And that is to me, uh, an area that you have to be like, okay, well, why, what, what am I, what am I doing? What could I change about this? But that is a very, you know, like, even if you had $20 and you lost it, uh, I saw my kids, I was like, you weren't respecting it. And so the universe didn't care whether you had it or didn't have it because you weren't respecting what it did, which is really, it creates freedom. Right. In some capacity. Yeah. And it doesn't mean you have to have a lot or a little. It's, it's what you do with it. It's how you energetically feel. So I think that, you know, you and I are very aligned in how we think. I really appreciate the information that you have provided. Um, I'd love to have you back on to talk about other money issues because it, I mean, the books, I wrote them down very fast. So we'll, we'll try to put more information about the books that you talked about as well. So I really appreciate this and, uh, we look forward to seeing you again soon.

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Thanks so much, Melissa.