Deep Travel: who does it, how it works and why you can no longer ignore it

Speaker A: Welcome to Truth Behind Travel podcast, a platform for tourism, travel and hospitality professionals and enthusiasts to share, learn and unlearn what we need to create better tourism, protect the environment and become better humans. I'm your host, Dolores Semeraro, and every week I bring on a podcast, the voices of those out there making a difference, to learn the hard truth behind the world of travel and tourism, what works and what we can collectively do better. Welcome back to Truth Behind Travel podcast. How are we doing? Summer is about to begin, at least in the northern hemisphere m which calls for more travels, holiday mode and more travel traffic. I know it is about to be in full force. So the question is when? Travelers are seeking more than just entertainment and relaxation, when they seek connection, mindfulness, and some might even say a sort of awakening. In other words, a deep travel experience. Can destinations cope with the demand when they are already busy handling the ever growing hordes of visitors? Today on the podcast, we take a moment to reflect on the meaning of deep travel with the co founder of One Planet Journey, Richard Lindbergh. Richard is a serial entrepreneur on a mission to make deep travel experiences the norm. He believes in an industry where authenticity, sustainability, immersion and exclusivity can define a successful hospitality and travel business. So how is deep travel different from sustainable travel, responsible travel or experiential travel? Or is all one of the big same? Let's hear it from Richard. Welcome back to the podcast and welcome to season five. And welcome Richard. Thank you for joining me on Truth Behind Travel today.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker A: I know we're going to talk about deep travel and this is something perhaps new to the podcast, like it's similar to other things. We're going to get into that, uh, that with other, other conversations that we had in the past. But I want to hear it from you and before we start, I would like you to give us a little bit of an overview of your journey. How did you get to deep travel and what, what made you decide to advocate for such an important form of travel?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's a crooked road. Uh, I'll give, uh, you that from the beginning. Uh, I'm a business guy from university, uh, who never actually started working. I, um, ended up, you know, starting my own business, which I don't call work. It's more of a lifestyle. First years out of uni, we did a tech startup. It eventually took me to a totally different path after we sold it because I, um, was around 2009, there was a lot of talk about sustainability and climate change and all These kind of things. And I ended up at the UN meeting in Copenhagen in 2009 and it's inspired me to uh, work with sustainability, set up a non profit to get more university students to adopt and uh, get into sustainability. And after a few years I started working with sustainable finance in London. Actually it was there I also started getting my first touch into the tourism and travel industry because we started this kind of rating review, rating service, uh, for sustainability in hospitality. Right. So that went very well uh, until the pandemic hit and we had to close that down because we were, you know, a lot of people in the, in the company at the end of it. Me, my wife, who went on this amazing long uh, road trip in Europe, uh, during the low season, I think it was between November and uh, May or something like that. It was a totally different experience than anything I've had before in terms of travel. It was uh, you know, kind of calm, uh, we could connect with locals and uh, you know, we were working at the same time so it was not like just lying on the beach or anything, although we could do that. Also being from the Nordics, uh, the temperatures were totally fine for us once we got back. And this was now around summer 2023. I felt this urge to tell people about this experience that there's another way to travel than the usual that I had done, you know, peak season travel in July to south of France and you know, London and all these kind of places that I used to go to. You know, we um, uh, One Planet Journey, uh, based on that we wanted to write ourselves. We did write all of the articles ourselves in the beginning, but we quickly saw that it was just caught on with people because there is something uh, that's happening within the industry and I think there's a shift and I know it is because also a lot of other people are saying, it's just me, that people want something more out of their journeys. Uh, I call it, they want a higher return on their travel. Uh, it's undefined sometimes it depends on the person, but something more meaningful. And that's what we had. And uh, that's why it caught on. And we were getting requests from people to say could we also start writing on the platform? We let them in and it's kind of ballooned from there. So now we have writers from all over the world that are sharing their perspectives. And this is a magazine, but it's not, you know, we don't do research on places we haven't been. It's only lived experiences from People that have actually, you know, been and done the thing they're writing about and yeah, here we are. And I think it's a very, very exciting time for the industry and I'm happy to be in this space.

Speaker A: It made me think about many of the moments that I've lived through, uh, especially when I'm on a road trip myself. When you are on the road and experiencing travel from a completely different perspective, uh, rather than for example flying in, going to the hotel, visit the monuments, fly out, uh, what you do on a road trip is really immersing yourself right in um, in the day to day vibe, the people, the uh, energy, observing the habits. And it almost makes you think, I can never travel in another way ever again. How did it come to you that this would then lead to the definition of deep travel?

Speaker B: What we wanted and what we felt like during the trip was like temporary locals, let's call it. Right. And that feeling, uh, of understanding or trying to understand and making some new friends and all those kind of things, the connection is, I would say is the key word here. Right. And that's something we wanted to feel. But then I, I came across a term called deep travel and it spoke more to me, it was more personal, uh, but it also spoke about the destination, uh, and what's going on there and how the communities and that connection, I'm speaking about how they perceive it and that's something we were very mindful about also in, you know, because we have a community building, we get a lot of insights from really smart people as well. So it's, I would say it's also a collaborative effort. It's not like I'm sitting and coming up with the definitions here in the room. It's a joint effort for sure. And it's developing as we talk also to clients and destinations. And I would like to say right off the bat that deep travel is a dual use, um, methodology. Right. So it's got to make sense for the traveler, but it's got to make sense for the communities and the destination also.

Speaker A: Who do you think finds it more difficult to, I wouldn't say adopt, but also in a way to really immerse in this way of traveling. The destination or the travelers?

Speaker B: Oh, it's definitely the destination because what we've seen from the start is that the travelers. There's been such a tremendous resonance, uh, with travelers for this that I'm overwhelmed. Uh, but for the industry, obviously there's a whole different situation and that's part of what our mission is to get uh, destinations to work and adopt some of these principles because if they do, they will have a much higher, easier time attracting these types of travelers as well. And that's when the magic happens.

Speaker A: So you're saying that there are travelers that don't seek deep travel connections and there's just travelers that. Because you're kind of like implying that there is a kind of travelers, as

Speaker B: you said, because it's a mindset. Right. Um, deep travel is something intentional about it. You know, we're all conditioned to travel, to make travel kind of happens to us in the standard way, right. It's something, oh, it's summer, let's go somewhere, right? Or I have a week off or a weekend or something like that. And uh, and you so see social media, it's very standardized. Oh, see these things, oh, you haven't been to X City if you haven't done this, this and that. So it becomes almost like a default thing. Not everyone is a deep traveler. Definitely not. And not every situation calls for deep travel. Right. So we see deep travel as a spectrum. Different trip could have level, different levels of depth. Right. Depending on what it is you're seeking out to do. It doesn't always have to, you know, it doesn't have to be expensive, it doesn't have to be year long experience because as we speak about it, people have this automatic response that oh, how much money do you have to spend to get this kind of, you know, really cool experience? And that's when I always say it's a mindset thing. It's got to be from both angles to really, you have to appreciate it and somebody has to deliver it.

Speaker A: I like the point you made earlier that um, travel kind of just happens to us. Ah, in, in most of most of the cases because it's uh, it's summer, so I got my holidays, so time to travel or someone else has already prepared a package, an itinerary or even through social media and an idea of what I should be doing when I travel. So we are sort of um, brainwashed in a way. Whether it's from a price point of view, an experience point of view. It's almost like we're left without enough time to really comprehend and understand what is it that really we want from a travel experience. Everybody's telling us what to do, where to go, how much to pay, uh, how long to stay and uh, who to talk to. Uh, we got to talk to the communities we have to support the environment. We are bombarded with things we need to do when we Travel. So there's also a little bit of an overwhelm, I think, from a traveler perspective. And I always question whether the call for something comes from the inside, comes from m within. Are really people asking for it or is again a product of media. It's something else telling us this is what we should be wanting, this is what we should be thinking because we live in a very global world. Right. We can be anywhere, everywhere at any time. And I think that leaves very little space for reflection. And as you said, deep travel is very intentional and it doesn't have to be long. And I want to go there because I'm currently traveling in probably one of the countries in the world where everything needs to be bigger and larger and greater m the country of more. I wanted to kind of reflect with you. For destinations that are used to work with quantity, with big volumes, how can they approach deep travel?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean this question is obviously so complex. What can destinations do? I think there is low hanging fruit. Can you offer services and experiences that would cater, for example, to a deep traveler? Right. I would say there is a need for a discussion from the destinations together with the communities that they represent. Right. They have to be involved in a much bigger way and first determining who are we for. If that works, then you have a social license to operate that will probably be much more long term viable as well. And it will attract the type of traveler that we were discussing here, uh, because they won't come to places where they feel unwelcome. You know, who are we targeting? Uh, what kind of destination do we want to be? These are hard questions that might result in saying, you know, we have to reduce volume instead, go for a higher quality type of tourism where there's often also a higher margin. That's a mindset change. Right. And when you're stuck in a way of operating and doing business that's been done for a long time, this, this takes courage and bold decisions.

Speaker A: Do you think that destinations that are welcoming bigger volumes of travelers are and could be, could be uninterested, or maybe they just don't see the opportunity or the value in attractive deep traveler, deep travel travelers, so to speak, because they have the volume, why would they need to do other things?

Speaker B: Well, they might have the volume and um, they might not see the, you know, the, the necessity for change immediately. But if the experience for all these volumes that come, uh, is degrading, they might have to change, you know, and the sooner you do it, the better it is a lot of stuff. What's happening Also is subtle. You know, it doesn't have to be protesting locals all the time. It can also be other stuff, like where the whole experience of coming to the city feels like amusement park, theme park. Everything is polished, no friction, you know, and you almost don't see anyone from the local environment. There's like different stages of degradation of the experience, both, uh, from a local point of view and, uh, um, from a traveler point of view. And as a destination, you have to map it out. Where are we here? And if I feel as a traveler that, you know, why am I coming to the city? There's nothing real about it anymore, uh, that I would choose another one and they will lose my business and, and then eventually more people like myself.

Speaker A: Do you think that returning value that you mentioned earlier, it's, um, directly related to the fact that when you, let's say when you travel to a destination for like, let's say the first time, and you happen to find yourself into this mega, um, massive tourism trap, um, you go there, do your photos, been there, done that, and you probably don't return because you've done it, you've seen it. You come away, uh, with the feeling of, okay, I've seen it. Like, for example, super uber busy places like Venice or like Barcelona or, um, many other places in Spain as well, because they're very popular. And instead, deep travel calls for a returning visitor, a returning person to the destination.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I would go as far as to say that, uh, the real depth and the real connection you build from repeat visits, and that's what Jeep travelers do, and they often try to find times and places within a busy city, for example, that is not busy. Repeat visits is one of the main business reasons why I think destinations should attract this type of traveler. Deep travel is a lot about following your passions and special interests. Right. If you're into Roman, uh, remains or ruins, I mean, or you're a foodie or digital nomad, uh, these are some of the, uh, archetypes of deep travelers. You spend money on your interests. I mean, some people travel only to go to a specific restaurant or for a food experience, but also because they're very passionate about these things. There are, of course, adjacent interests that you can also upsell. There's so much opportunity here to work with these types of travel. Also, I would say, because they have this mindset, they're also a bit more respectful. They're mindful of where they're coming. So you automatically avoid some of the abject behavior, if we call it like that, that we see also happening in certain places.

Speaker A: Well, I always say that tourism behavior is a product, product of habits that the destination guides. And if they don't guide good behavior or responsible behavior, it is a, it is a mistake and a responsibility of the travelers just as much as it is for the destination. It's a two ways, um, responsibility for the way I see it with my own eyes out on the ground, and also the way I feel very strongly about. And this brings me to a point that I wanted to touch with you about. When we look at destinations that are on the mega stream, like very well known destinations with very well defined places to go and see and visit and experience, uh, and then you have perhaps in the very same destination or maybe other places around the world is big, uh, places that we still dare to call hidden gems. Right? And the word itself, I remember uh, starting a keynote on it like uh, rest in peace, the hidden gem. Like do we still have them anyway? And by the time you are, you have defined it, uh, oh, look, this is a hidden gem. Uh, it's no longer hidden because we are exposing it. Right. I was reflecting on the depth of experience that deep travel brings along with the, you know, within the journey. And in many cases these experiences are to be found in the, you know, within the hidden gems spectrum, not just necessarily, uh, in front of the Colosseum in Rome that you know, pretty much everyone knows. So I wonder, could deep travel unnecessarily spoil hidden gems as per se?

Speaker B: It's a question we obviously as a magazine and we, you know, publish inspiring articles from places like the ones you're describing, right, where it's quiet, uh, calm and very perhaps sensitive as well in some aspects. I don't have, you know, the picture perfect answer for you, uh, on this because at the same time we uh, want to inspire people. I would say though that if you employ the standard way of how tourism is done and it, and attract them to these kind of hidden gems, then you're in for a disaster. And we, I can see it already here in my country, you know, where it's become so popular now sudden the last few years with um, trekking in the mountains up north. People don't have the experience, they don't have the right clothes. Suddenly they're calling for helicopter rescues. They leave litter everywhere. You uh, know it's a complete disaster. They're uh, disrupting the reindeers, uh, cycles and stuff like that as well. I would say if you're inviting people or you have uh, something that is valuable to visit let's say a hidden gem. You have to be proactive, right? Understand what is the carrying capacity here? How many people can we take in here before we're degrading the experience for everyone, locals and visitors at the same time? If you're going to talk about it or have tried to at least attract the right type of traveler, then there's a bit proactive, smart strategy. But combined with hard measures like quotas or just shut it off if it gets too much.

Speaker A: That brings us back to the point of destinations working with bigger volume. They cannot rescale once you go to that kind of volume. And in certain, certain destinations are lucky enough to have a, to have assets, let's call them like this, that don't decline over time. The experience declines, but not the assets. So for example, you look at Venice, it's beautiful and will be beautiful and was beautiful 20 years ago as it is now and as it will be for the next 10, 20 years or so. Because the assets are there. They don't, they don't change the experience change. And, uh, one of the experiences that, uh, is perhaps close to you in, uh, Sweden are the northern lights. Something that was considered far and hard to reach and almost mystical. And, uh, you gotta be very lucky to see now it's pretty much a guaranteed thing. There are holidays that refund you the money if you don't get to see the northern lights when you go there. And we got to that extent, so it's hard to rescale, to scale down. We can create deep travel experiences, huh? Or a deep travel approach. Yeah, let's call it approach into mega destinations. It is possible, but who is the right person to do it? Are the travelers going to seek out this type of approach? Or are the destinations perhaps the private operators, perhaps the community? So in a destination that operates at bigger volume, who can create a little space for deep travel, do you think?

Speaker B: I would say that travelers want it. The demand is there if the supply comes online. Um, but I think there are a lot of private tourism industry brands in all sectors that are already doing it. They attract this type of traveler. But what's lacking is perhaps a more centralized strategy, uh, like we talked about before, determining that this is the destination we want to be. We want to have more of this, and we want it to be. This should be our mantra or what we should be famous for. They're also the one that should find the model to involve local communities in the discussion. Uh, I can't see who else would do it. It's a political Decision as well. Right.

Speaker A: In the travel and tourism industry, we play this little game very well. Are the travelers misbehaving, uh, or the destinations not supporting enough? And as you said before, deep travel borders with responsible travel or with experiential travel. And in the line, you know, in the spirit of the podcast, I was challenging the conversation. Let's, let's go there. So if we were, where are the areas where experiential travel and deep travel align? Where are the areas where responsible travel and deep travel align so where we can see the difference, for example, so that people listening to the podcast may recognize themselves perhaps for the first time. Oh, wait a second. Uh, uh, I'm, I'm a deep travel person or I am a deep travel institution or business. So let's give them the tools to, to see themselves into deep travel. So let's, let's look at these differences and, um, similarities.

Speaker B: It's very important not to burden the traveler with extra things. And I think that's what's been done. If we now start with the responsible, sustainable tourism angle. Right. It's, we can't burden the traveler with all the world's problems at the same time and using doom, gloom, shaming methods. I think it's contrary, and I think it's also the reason why it hasn't really caught on. People say it, they want to book sustainably, but they don't do it. Right. I think this is a large part of the reason. Deep travel is definitely aligned with responsible behavior, but that's inherent in the traveler themselves. They don't need to be told to be responsible. They are responsible. Uh, because if you need to be told not to take away, you know, or chip away a stone from the Colosseum, I would go out here and say you're not a deep traveler. Now, also from a sustainability angle, where we're aligned is that deep travel sees things from, uh, the local perspective. That's why I said locals first. Right. So let's say the social angle of it, I think an exciting development here with, uh, regenerative travel because it actually puts the focus on what is important from the destination and the community perspective, using their needs and desires first and foremost. Right. Um, so on that side, I think deep travel, uh, is aligned. Uh, but then we also try to, you know, we merge it with the traveler perspective. That's the kind of marriage I want to see. Uh, when we talk with destinations or travel brands and they ask us, okay, what is it we need to do to attract the deep traveler? Right. Uh, it's using a certain type of language, uh, avoiding certain other words and things because they can see through it, is marrying both the personal and the wider industry and community side. And if you look at our mission as a company, it is to create deeper connections between travelers, destinations, communities and travel brands. Because we're all in this together. If we don't adopt all the principles, uh, together, there's going to be a misalignment between what the traveler wants and what uh, is being offered or experienced.

Speaker A: Do you think that the traveler that goes for a deep, meaningful experience, um, on a journey while designing their own travel experience comes out of it transformed, changed? You've come out changed out of your first road trip. You said I was not the one I was before. That is a transformation after travel. So my question is, does deep travel end uh, at uh, the travel, uh, moment or does it continue after the travel moment?

Speaker B: It continues again here. I mean it is based on your personality also a lot. But I feel that the travel is also very reflective. Right. Because if you want to increase the return on your travel experience, you've got to reflect. Okay, how did this trip go? What was good? What was bad? What can I improve? How did I feel? What was good with the destinations? Coming back to that. Right. But once you have that, again, intentional mindset of it, the chances of, uh, being transformed and having a better experience and choosing the right place the next time increases. And maybe you already found it. Right? So like we said, a lot of people go back to their places, uh, they do travelers. So they found something that works for them. And I would like to emphasize this as well. We don't tell people what to do. This is not that type of thing. If you feel like this trip, it needs to be a package to travel. I don't want to think, I don't want to have to, you know, care about one single detail. Okay, great. You might need that in this stage of your life. We don't tell anybody what to do. We don't focus uh, on any of the negative aspects, uh, in our communications with the travelers because we want to inspire them. We want them to think and improve their own situation. And once they are happy and a little bit more demanding, that will also impact what the destinations and uh, the service providers do.

Speaker A: So you think that the deep travel conversation is a conversation that still needs to be nurtured in the traveler's ecosystem or in the destinations ecosystem. So who needs to talk about it?

Speaker B: For travelers, uh, it comes more natural. So I would, if I'm going To place my bets, I would place it in the industry. What I see with travelers is that we can enlighten them that this exists. And the way we've done it in the Deep Travel report, which we launched last, last year, is that we, we took it, take a look at some of the big sectors like food, culture, nature, slow travel, solar travel, digital nomads. But we're not saying that 100% overlap is. They're not 100% deep travelers. All of these sectors. What we try to is, uh, make an assessment of how big of a percentage of each of these represent a deeper type of travel. The next report will go into more detail, uh, with more of our own data on this. What we want to do is to be more specific. I don't want it to be a, uh, philosophy. I want it to be a standardized term in some way, uh, to make it easier for the industry to adopt it.

Speaker A: If this can be a conversation starter or a conversation enhancer around deep Travel, amazing, because this is what this is. The spirit of this podcast is to have conversations that triggers more conversations. So if people want to listen while listening to this episode are triggered by, what does Deep Travel entail? Can I do something about it? Am, um, I a deep traveler? And if I am, can I? Where are my people? Where is my tribe? Maybe these are the kind of reflections that I wish to inspire with this conversation today in Travelers and to get in touch with you also through, you know, just simply taking a look at the show notes of the podcast, where people can find the contact details to get in touch with you and continue this conversation. This will be my wish for, from, from this episode and for destination and destination managers that are listening to this episode and think about the type of positioning offering, uh, perhaps even the idea that still lingers everywhere, to be something for everyone. I think we need to be a little bit more brave there in the approach in destination strategy. We cannot be as destinations. We cannot be everything for everyone. We need to choose how to best protect our environment, protect our people, support them along the way, and talk to the people that we want to welcome in the destinations we represent. So if anything, out of this episode, I would invite destination managers to rethink about the people that, uh, they are welcoming to their destinations. And maybe they're already welcoming deep Travelers. They're just not aware because they work with volume, right? They stay up at that, at that type of surface. And if you were to leave the podcast listeners with a word of wisdom from your experience in deep Travel, what would it be.

Speaker B: You always want to feel like that there is a community of people like you. So, and I would say there is. Uh, you can find them on our website, of course, but there are there around you. There are service providers out there as well. Uh, and what we're trying to do is to make sure that we're speaking the same language because then it will be easier for you to find it, be curious, be intentional, reflect, uh, uh, and make your Twitter, uh, much better next time.

Speaker A: Thank you, Richard, for being on the podcast. I think this is just. Has just really just scraped the surface of the conversation around Deep Travel. We'll certainly be in touch and bring it back to the podcast, uh, perhaps even with a joint podcast with some of your ambassadors, some of. Let's bring in the conversation, some Deep Travel ambassadors and uh, let's see where that conversation leads at the meantime, I thank you for being in the podcast today and uh, all the best for.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. I look forward to the next time.

Speaker A: Thank you for joining me on the podcast today. So are you a deep traveler? If so, I want to hear your story. Get in touch with me and let's talk about it. Meanwhile, my road trip across the Americas continues and you can always take a look at where I am on my social media or on the blog of my website. Until next time. Be well, my friends.