Can an Algorithm Replace a Teacher’s Instinct?

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Welcome to this week with EdSurge for the week of July 1st. I'm Ira Apfel, editorial, uh, director here at EdSurg. This week we have one big theme. When do you trust the tool and when do you trust the teacher? First we have a teacher who spent a year building an AI powered reading app from scratch and then watched it do something he never expected. And then we have a teacher with a classroom view on the phone. Pouch craze. Let's get into it. David Webb is an international school teacher joining us from Jakarta. He saw a problem he couldn't buy a solution to, so he built one himself. Without a computer science background, he used AI tools to write the code for him, describing what he wanted in plain English. And that concept is called RA Vibe coding. And the result? Library Aid, a personalized book recommendation app, uh, that matches students to titles from their own school's library catalog. It took him a year, but when it finally launched in his classroom, something shifted. Kids who had never been excited about the library suddenly were. David, welcome to the show. In the story you wrote for ED Surge, you described the moment the app went live and you saw a shift in your students had. How did that feel when you noticed that and uh, how quickly did it happen?

Speaker A: It was really, really pleasing, um, to see, um, after all the hours of work I'd put into it, um, and what I had aimed to achieve, um, was to see students really enjoying the experience in the library, um, to be really engaged in their own learning journey in terms of, um, knowing what it was they wanted to find when they were in the library. So not only, uh, did I find that the app was really good for matching students to the literature, but it was also great for getting them to understand how to use the library and giving them the motivation to want to understand how to use it.

Speaker B: And that must have been really, really good to see. And perhaps maybe some other educators in your school were happy to see kids kind of getting the feel of how, of having, of how to use a library. Would you say that's true?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And it wasn't, it wasn't the only occasion. Um, so when I first, uh, set out to build it, um, it was with one goal in mind and that was really to like, kind of create the goodreads of, uh, your own school library using your own catalog. But as I started building it, I realized there was more opportunity, um, so I decided to make it whole school library management systems. So, uh, you can do full cataloging with check in and check out as well. I've enjoyed using other reading programs with my class which, um, ass their reading skills. And I realized there was the chance to do that and again incorporate the AI by getting the AI to generate reading quizzes for the books they've just read. So now there's kind of a four pronged experience every week where they select a book, they read it, um, they review it, um, and then they do a comprehension for, uh, that.

Speaker B: I did have a question though about the Vibe coding part, because I've done Vibe coding and you could find yourself in the weeds very quickly if you don't know anything about computer science and programming, and I don't. So you nearly stopped development a few times. What were the roadblocks along the way and what ultimately kept you going?

Speaker A: Yeah, there were a lot of roadblocks, um, particularly at the beginning with, with no knowledge of coding before, um, already that much experience with uh, building anything on the computer. It was challenging. I started off using Copilot, which was good, but I found that there were a, of loops and a lot of errors, um, which would cause me to make mistakes and sometimes I would lose three days of work at the beginning. One of the hardest challenges along the way was actually getting the book covers for the, for the books. Um, because we're using a CSV to upload the titles and then once the titles were uploaded, um, there can be thousands. And then in trying to get the code and the AI to attain the book covers and match them properly and to ensure that the right covers was a real challenge. Um, and that took weeks and weeks, maybe months, um, a disproportionate amount of time compared to the rest of the website. And it was very frustrating.

Speaker B: What kind of encouragement or advice would you give a teacher who's listening to this, who gets inspired and wants to spend their summer learning how to Vibe code? Because I imagine you have some good lessons to learn for your colleagues.

Speaker A: I remember telling a colleague last year what my plan was and she said, that sounds good, great. And I said, oh, well, I'm just not sure it started with coding, trying to understand it. Um, and she said, just believe in yourself. It's a great idea. Just go for it and persevere. Uh, and that stuck with me for a while in those opening three months. And I did. Uh, and yeah, that was a nice memory, to be honest. Um, it's things like that when you're faced with these challenges which can really help get you through.

Speaker B: You talk about wanting one student in your article who was reading two grade levels below their placement, but made three times the average reading progress once they were matched to books at that level. What was it about the app that caused such a dramatic change, in your opinion?

Speaker A: Um, it was the reading discovery. Um, they found a series of books that they liked. Um, in this case it was Bunny versus Monkey, um, ah. And they found that through the app as well as through other students. Um, so community aspect of the classroom, which is something I encourage with the reading culture in the classroom, um, is, um, also underpins by library aid, um, by the app. So, uh, children are seeing each other's reviews and ratings. Um, and I think when he started on that series, um, I saw him coming in the mornings and instead of wanting to chat to his peers, he would sit down with a book and start reading one of those series. And that passion for reading is, um, will really accelerate, uh, the reader's development.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I could understand how once a child finds that book, whatever it is, uh, and they can't put it down, they almost develop as readers just because they have to get to the end of the book. They have to figure out what the, what the storyline is. I, I can, I can totally hear you on that. There's a, There's a line in your piece in the article, uh, that really stood out. You said, quote, the algorithm had done its job. What she needed next was a conversation with a trusted adult, unquote. What does that tell you about what AI can and can't do here with your app? And just kind of in general, it's

Speaker A: part of the name library age. It is an age. Uh, it's not replacing anything. Um, it wouldn't be enough to just give the child, um, a device with the app and say, there you go, he's going to recommend the book. Books, you're sorted. Um, it's not like that at all. Um, because children are seeing, especially younger children, they're seeing book covers come up, uh, and they're not the sort of books they would have read before, but they're being recommended to them and they're thinking probably to themselves, well, this isn't my kind of thing. Why should I read it? So it's having the conversation with the librarian or with the teacher which can make the match. You can explain why, um, it's for them. Children often need that reassurance and encouragement to take that leap, sometimes to cross into other genres.

Speaker B: So David, when they're using the, uh, the app, ah, and they're actually, you know, going into the, the, the school library and you're observing them how are they behaving? What's it like when they're working with the app and going around the library catalog?

Speaker A: The excitement is visible. They're literally buzzing. Um, it's, it's become like a treasure hunt for them, um, where they've, they've already selected their book and, um, it's just a matter. And they can't wait to read the back cover, to read the synopsis. Um, and they can't wait to show me either. Um, and that's the really nice thing about it is, uh, it's not alienating the teacher at all. Uh, it's bringing, uh, the children's reading experience and the teacher's appreciation of that, uh, closer together, if anything.

Speaker B: When do you come in as the teacher? You know, you have it working in your classroom. That's great. The kids love it and use it. So when do you, as a teacher kind of come in and make sure that there's human in the loop, as they say, and that again, it's not just here's an app, kids have at it. When will you come in and, you know, offer oversight?

Speaker A: So at my school, we have a library period every week. Um, and it's really been, it's been integrated into that library period. We start off with library aid. Um, I pull it up on the main screen in the classroom and we have a look at some of the reviews that children have written that week. Um, and then I give them time to, um, select, uh, books and, and write more reviews and to do any, uh, comprehensions from the books they finished, um, and they share, they share that with each other. They ask me questions, um, and then we go to the library, um, and they choose the books they've selected in that morning period. So it's fresh in their minds.

Speaker B: What have you tweaked with the app since it's gone live? And obviously it's successful, it's doing its job. But I'm wondering if there are some changes or little adjust you've had to make along the way.

Speaker A: Uh, yes, every day, um, there's barely been a day gone by, literally, um, where I haven't worked on the app. Today it was cosmetic stuff. I was updating the cosmetics to the pricing page actually. But, yeah, I've got a whole big to do list. And the next big project, um, is I'm at the moment, I'm integrating, uh, CLEVER and the US system to onboard district schools. So I'm creating a district platform so that that could be possible whilst the approval from CLEVER goes through.

Speaker B: You spent A year thinking about what makes a child want to read. And I'm wondering what have you learned as a teacher about what makes a child want to read? What is kind of lessons are you taking from all this?

Speaker A: Confidence is a big one. Um, if a child sees themselves as a reader, they're more likely to want to persist with it. Um, really pleasure for reading is another one. Um, and that's why I spend uh, a lot of time actually uh, during the week reading to my children, trying to make stories, uh, which are engaging, um, and trying to uh, pick a variety of genres for my children so they can have uh, the chance to identify with different genres that they might not have thought that were an interest before. Um, and that thesis is built into Library Aid as well. So when the algorithm sends the submission to the AI to select the books, it takes into account about 30 different factors, um, such as their interests which they input, the class topic which they or the teacher can input, um, their favorite authors, genres, obviously series that they're reading at the moment and it tracks series progression and the ratings that they've given out of the books. So it's, it's uh, continually building a database for them and building a profile for them to hopefully, um, continue to inspire them with new recommendations. Uh, and that's exactly what teachers do in the classroom. Um, so it's just aiding that.

Speaker B: So for listeners who are interested in the app, what can you tell them? What details would you have for them to get them on their way?

Speaker A: I'll ask them to please go to libraryaid.net um, and check it out. Um, at the moment there's um, a 30 day free trial and there's a founding 25 code which will give 25% off the first year's use. So if any founding schools are listening, now's the chance. It's available until the end of August. Um, and there's no credit card required for the first, uh, 30 day free trial.

Speaker B: David, thanks for being on the show today.

Speaker A: Thanks, Ira.

Speaker B: David Webb set out to solve a library problem and ended up learning something about teaching. That's a pretty good return on a year of evenings and weekends. We'll link to Library Aid and his piece in the show Notes. Next up, uh, a high school teacher with a counterintuitive take on one of the biggest trends in school policy right now. Gabe Nitro's school uses yonder pouches, those magnetic locking cases where students seal up their phones at the start of the day. The goal seems simple. Less phone time means more learning and the Problem they're solving is real. Research shows students spend about 70 minutes on their phones during the school day, and that's instructional time nobody gets back. But Gabe did the math on the pouches themselves. Seven minutes per class period. Checking to make sure the pouches are sealed times seven periods of class per school day. And that's seven, uh, 49 minutes of instructional time gone before a single lesson starts. And that's before you count the students showing up with fake phones, jammed locks, or stolen magnets. He wrote a piece for Ed Search called I'm a Teacher and I'm against phone pouches. Gabe, welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Hi, Iroh, thanks for having me.

Speaker B: So you're not pro phone in the classroom. You're anti pouch. For anyone who thinks those are the same position, Walk us through the difference.

Speaker C: I'm not really against any kind of phone regulation in the classroom. It merely depends on the type of regulation. So, for instance, phone pouches have been a recent craze in the past couple years in my school district and across California. And in terms of regulating phone use, it is critical, as securing a phone throughout the school day helps promote more learning opportunities for our students. But the pouch itself isn't by any means the best way to do it.

Speaker B: You know, the National Bureau of, um, Economic Research found that yonder pouches had no statistically significant impact on standardized test scores for high schoolers. In English, no significant impact. Feels pretty big, actually. What was your reaction when you found that out?

Speaker C: As an emerging high school teacher about to start their career, it was quite shocking because I believe that most teachers are sold this idea that the pouch is supposed to promote learning. And what often tends to happen is that most times some teachers may reduce or essentialize the act of schooling to just a standardized test score. And even when it comes to that small reduction of what school really is, yonder pouches are still coming up short. So it's quite shocking that it isn't having any impact on that.

Speaker B: When you heard this, did you, uh, bring that result, that research to anyone's attention? Do other administrators or people at your school know about this? Because, again, if there's not much of an impact, I'm wondering what the pouch bands are even working for.

Speaker C: Exactly. I mentioned it to several of my colleagues. This was a recent paper published by several esteemed professors at Duke and also my alma mater at Stanford. And the resounding message I would normally get is that, well, I still want it, even though that we don't see this impact. According to the research on a Day to day basis, I see that teachers are still willing to have it as a system, even if it isn't necessarily aligning with what they might want out of them.

Speaker B: Do you think it's a case with teachers wanting pouches despite the research? It's annoying when I see kids not paying attention and it's rude or they might cheat and that their research hasn't found that out. What do you think it is that has them holding onto the idea of these phone pouches?

Speaker C: I think it's a mixture of two things. Number one, I think it's an element of control. As educators, we tend to see children for a significant portion of their day from the ages of 14 to 18. Yes. While parents and families are a part of their lives, we tend to see them the most and most good teachers will tell you that we want students to take advantage of their time in the classroom. So we try our best to control as much as we can to make sure everyone is able to receive a quality and accessible education. So that's number one. Number two, at least for some of the other teachers at my school, I think it's about respect because of course not everyone gets access to a high quality education. And as someone who is a Gen Z teacher, I'm a fresh teacher and most of my colleagues are several, if not many years older than me. It comes down to being able to respect the person who's trying to essentially give you everything.

Speaker B: I suggest spending the first week of school in an open conversation with students about how they actually use their phones. And that seems like a pretty big ask when most teachers are already scrambling to get through their solos. So why is that conversation worth the time?

Speaker C: I think it's worth the time because as teachers we try to enforce a lot of control on our students. But what we might not always realize is that our students are also developing as well. They're trying to figure out who they are as people and when they're being forced to follow this rule without really any sense of why or how or how it even matters to them. It can feel less of an actual component or a, uh, benefactor to their education and more of a just do it policy. So it is stressful during the first week of school. It's very stressful, especially as a first year teacher. But it can be a way to show students the rationale behind the policy and also have more kids bought in, especially when you see little inklings of resistance come up in the beginning of the year. And that, uh, eventually, through my experience, bursts towards the end of the year where students are just done with it.

Speaker B: What do your students think of the pouches?

Speaker C: I will say that the majority of responses is a, uh, distaste for them. I often see students complaining about it, how they can't access their phone to do anything. They can't even do it during allotted break time, like brunch or lunch, where they're not really in the classroom, so their attention isn't really warranted as much. But I will say there is a small minority population at my school who do fancy it. Um, they enjoy having more genuine connections with their peers. And to be honest with you, it's been surprising seeing some things come back at, uh, my school as a result of this. For instance, at some of our rallies, because phones are always locked up, students can't really make memories, as I might have done when I was in their shoes. So I see students coming to school with Polaroids or these small cameras, or sometimes they have flip phones, which is astonishing to me that they would even consider bringing that back, considering their phone is gone. So it's definitely a mixed bag.

Speaker B: You know, you talk about, of course, how the research shows that there's no significant impact on standardized test scores, but I'm wondering, is it too. Do you just notice a qualitative difference, more engaged students, or do they just keep on grousing about not having their phones on hand?

Speaker C: I think students don't really grouse at the fact. What I've been seeing, however, is that their attention has instead shifted to other things. If it's not their phone, the substitute is often their Chromebook. And even that, as a teacher, I still have to waste time exerting control over them. So, for instance, at my school district, we have this software that allows us to see the screens on their Chromebooks, and we can actually block websites that they want to access. So, for instance, games, YouTube, et cetera, et cetera. But again, it's just more time.

Speaker B: What would you say to a teacher or administrator who reads your piece and agrees with you, but still wants to go with the pouches?

Speaker C: I would say that students, families, teachers and administrators, there needs to definitely be a, uh, united front for them if we're so desperately wanting to hold onto this craze, especially for the students, because most of the time, from what I've seen, the families are completely on board. They understand how it can be a detriment to learning. But unfortunately, children will try to find a way to circumvent it. So even if we're so willing to keep this in our schools, then we need to facilitate more discussions with our students as a whole.

Speaker B: Gabe, thanks for coming on the podcast today.

Speaker C: Thanks for having me.

Speaker B: So it turns out locking up phones don't automatically unlock, um, engagement from students. We'll link to Gabe's piece in the Show Notes below. Here's what I keep coming back to after talking with David and Gabe today. David Webb spent a year building a tool that works and then watched it reach its limit. The app found the right books. A child still needed a person to tell her which one to pick. Gabe Nitro watched a well meaning policy eat the very time it was supposed to protect, while the students it was designed to reach stayed just as disengaged. The threat between them is one we keep coming back to. The tool can do a lot, but no algorithm has figured out how to make a student feel seen. STLive 26 is happening right now in Orlando and there is no shortage of conversations there about exactly these questions. To follow all the news and coverage coming out of the conference, follow edsurge on your favorite social media platform. Check the links in the show notes. That's it for this week with EdSurge. Thanks to David Webb and Gabe Nitro for joining us and thanks to all of you for listening. For the ED search team, I'm Ira Apfel. We'll be back in your feed next week.