This Is Annex - Privacy and Marketing with Amanda Landsaw

Speaker A: But we're just glad to have you, especially after, um, you did such a good job at OX7 at the Omida conference.

Speaker B: Well, thank you. Yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun. Um, it was a. I think overall that conference was great. And Matt's whole set it and forget it approach to things, I think really help kind of tie everything together and really kind of highlight some of the direction we're trying to go at Endeavor, but also within, I think, the audience space as a whole.

Speaker A: For sure. Yeah. It's so funny when you go to that conference and hearing so many amazing audience managers getting asked like, how are you engag engaging your audiences? And it's like, I always think it's a question that would have been reserved for the marketing team or the editorial team. Like, it just shows you that shift and sort of underscores how integral audience management has become in our space.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And it's kind of funny you say that I. We've been going through our summer long range planning meetings and so I kind of, I gave mine on like, where are we going to be at Endeavor and what's the focus and all that. And I actually start off the whole conversation of kind of getting out of the scope of your traditional audience development. And I'm kind of trying to make the mind shift of more towards audience marketing because that's truly what we are now. We have to look at whether you're doing magazine stuff or you're looking at the database as a whole, like it is truly audience marketing and really trying to make that mind shift. Because I think oftentimes people think audience development, they automatically think circulation. And we have to kind of get out of that mindset set to really look at the audience in a holistic way and having advanced digital marketers and making sure that people understand the different directions that we can go. Because whether you're doing newsletter promotions or the magazine or looking at the database in a large way, all of it is still very much relatable. And you can, you can benefit from having advanced digital marketers that are focused on the audience.

Speaker C: And on that note, we're talking with Amanda Lansoff from Endeavor Business Media. You kind of jumped in on as well. We're in mid conversation and that's great because this conversation is going to be a good one. This is Annex is brought to you by Annex Business Media Canada's largest B2B media company. Annex Business Media. Great content, Better people Subscribers can binge all episodes of this is Annex on your podcast service of choice. And now this is Annex. So, Amanda, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and Endeavor?

Speaker B: Yes. So I am the vice president of Audience Development over at Endeavor Business Media. I have been here since July of 2019. Endeavor is kind of fairly new to the space. I guess we can't really say that anymore because we've been around for a while. But, you know, I came on to Endeavor to really focus on creating a holistic audience journey within the space and was kind of voluntold about being on the privacy team. And that's something that I've really taken to. And truly, I know people look at me like I'm crazy when I say this, but the privacy component has really become a passion of mine as well. Um, and so, yeah, I've been very fortunate to have a role that I love where I get to focus on audience and privacy day in and day out.

Speaker A: And that's exactly, I think, why we wanted to have you on. Kyle and I were talking about our listeners as B2B marketers and what lessons and takeaways they could take from your experience as an audience manager. Because I always think audience management as a discipline, uh, like as a practice is sort of talked about and seen in the media space. But just with how things have changed, which we just sort of talked about, especially like in house marketing teams managing their own lists, we're thinking like, there's got to be a lot of stuff that they can learn from your experience in audience management, you know, tactics and things that they can adopt in terms of privacy, respecting the audience, and just sort of audience management as a discipline.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I think that's a, uh, that's an important part. So I do think it's a big shift that we're, we should be seeing in the space, in the media space. And there's a couple different shifts. Right. One, we're. It's no longer just about your traditional competition, you know, whether it's another media company in the space or not. You have all these different changes with Google and lead gen vendors, and now you're having to really look bigger picture as opposed to what it used to just be, uh, of what's your one year, two year, three year, um, what's your competitor doing in that space as well? Now you're looking at things in a broader way. And, you know, it was touched on at the Omida conference where we just aren't seeing companies focusing on engagement and with all the various privacy regulations that are coming out, whether that's in the US or in Canada or, you know, the gdpr, which was kind of the steamroller to start all of this engagement, such a critical component of it. And you know, how can we as audience marketers really make sure we're engaging our audiences in the right way to where at the end of the day respects the list and there's so many different tactics out there that we can do and I don't think a lot are doing it at this point in time. Um, and so really trying to get the industry kind of moving more of that direction because at the end of the day if we as an industry can move that direction, all of our audiences are going to win in that. And at the in turn we win as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's that trust factor is that critical component whether you're in or whether you're in marketing. It's like having to balance that need for effective engagement strategies. Like you guys talked about using the content recommendation engines through omita and tactics like that, but balancing that with the consumer's concerns around data privacy. So maybe you could talk about some strategies or examples in terms of like how you're, you know, being transparent with your data practices, but also sort of like balancing that with the business goals.

Speaker B: Right. Yeah, we've, we've, I'm very fortunate because we have a leadership team that really takes privacy and compliance at the core of what we do day in and day out. And so, you know, we've implemented things like our 12 month engagement filter, um, to make sure that we're truly communicating with people who actually engage with us as opposed to just sending everything to everybody. And people roll their eyes because they've always heard the whole lip service of, uh, quality over quantity. And now how do we actually do that and put, and practice and not just make it something that we say. Right. And so, um, audience at Endeavor has a very big, um, we have a big footprint. I mean at the end of the day I think everybody understands that audience is outside of our employees. Right. Audience is our biggest asset. And so, you know, we utilize things like welcome campaigns to really nurture audiences so they know whenever they come on new to the file that hey, here's what you can expect from us. Um, and nobody else can really touch those names, right? Like, we want them to have a true welcome onboarding experience as opposed to I signed up for a newsletter and now all of a sudden I'm going to start getting promotions. Where this come from? I think we, we all have done that, right? We've signed up for something, we bought something, we downloaded a white paper. And the next thing we know we're just being inundated with all this third party stuff like where did this come from? And so most times I think a lot of us can kind of, if you really thought about it, you can track it back down to that submit, you know that, that click that you made that then triggered all of the rest of it. And so we want to make sure we're providing that and then utilizing some of the more automated components of our marketing automation system in the content recommendations, the dynamic content, you know, making sure that we're trying to capture people before they fall off of that 12 month engaged filter. And then once they do fall off of it, what are those next steps? You know, once they're, once they've fallen off doesn't mean they're gone for forever. You know, we have a specified period of time. We're really working to try and re engage those people to bring them on, um, back onto that 12 month engagement filter so we don't lose them. And you know we, Matt showcased this at the Omita conference just through that reactivation which isn't, you know, it's those people who haven't engaged with us in over a. Just through that alone are probably the least engaged people. Right. But through doing automated campaigns we've saved over a million dollars in audience acquisition costs. And my team's not having to sit there and focus on that every single day. Right. It is kind of that set it and forget it. But I air quote because you want to make sure we're optimizing, right? And ensuring that everything's tagged and nothing's breaking. And so there is that component to it. But those automated campaigns, that's like, you know, when a new hire comes on or a new brand comes on or uh, you know, anybody who's aware of endeavor, we've acquired a few brand, um, anytime a new brand comes on, that's like the first thing that we're doing is making sure we have those automated campaigns set up because that's that low hanging fruit.

Speaker C: So can I ask you a little bit about those automated campaigns? How many, how many things are you sending, what are you asking in those campaigns? Kind of for our, our B2B media listeners as well. Like what should they be doing on these once somebody signs up to their newsletter instead of like you say, just inundating them with E Blast and other things.

Speaker B: So I think the first step, uh, is make sure you're creating a dynamic experience. If somebody comes in and they signed up for a newsletter around Safety. Do not present them with the first thing of a safety newsletter. Diversify a little bit. Have something around a safety topic center on your website or the latest webinar around safety. And then so it's really a dynamic experience. So it depends on how they come in. And then from there it's over. You know, over the course of a few weeks it's. And then it's, you know, hey, here are our latest white papers or here are our latest ebooks. Here's the latest webinars around this. Hey, here, check out this topic center on our website or check out this newsletter. So it really depends on how they came in. But essentially at that point we're just trying to showcase everything that the brand has to offer and, or cross sell opportunities. Right? I say cross sell. I air quote that because it's not really cross sell, but it's more of maybe we have another brand that has a whole separate topic center on that topic as well, like on the safety one and a sister brand. And now we want to say, hey, did you also know that this brand has information around safety that you might find helpful? Or there's this newsletter that's going to have this topic as well. And so it just comes down to identifying the cadence that works best for you and your audience and then making sure that you're creating kind of product specific. So whether that's newsletters or the website or your white paper, just kind of product specific, specific type emails that are kind of helping guide them as what they can, what one, what they can expect for you and two, you know, what else you have to offer to try and keep them along in that journey. Because you know, if they come on through a newsletter, that shouldn't be the last time they hear from you. They shouldn't just be getting newsletters from you. Moving forward right now, there's other ways that you can engage them to make sure they're getting the right information in front of them at the right time.

Speaker A: And what are you guys doing outside of email in terms of new subscriber acquisition?

Speaker C: Oh man.

Speaker B: Uh, so we do partner with CredSpark and that uh, has been a fantastic tool for us, really creating some engaging surveys, polls and quizzes. We've had some that have really gamified it. So we had one of our groups actually do a whole, uh, March Madness around manufacturing and so taking that whole concept of what's happening right in, in the economy right now around March Madness and created a bracket essentially out of it so people can start competing and just kind of gamifying it. We have one brand that's, that's kind of taking the 4th of July component and saying basically like, hey, what companies were created around this time? And it's kind of all very much 4th of July centric. Um, in situations like that, right. We may want to just then utilize behaviors on the back end and only target people in the United States. Um, so we can, you know, by utilizing those two partnerships, we can essentially get very targeted with the types of campaigns that we're running. But Cred Spark has been huge for us. It's, it's been a lot of fun. Um, it adds, I think it's added an extra pep in our editorials team step as well because it's just something different. Um, and that collaboration there is just, has really been huge and like I said, just a lot of fun. So there's that, ah, there's social media, um, that is a tried and true for us as well. I think Everybody knows that LinkedIn is pretty expensive but can be effective. And um, we probably see our best and lowest cost per name coming from Facebook. Um, so there is the social media component of things and really honing in on the target audience there and then just doing, you know, we do Google Ads and kind of the standards that everybody else does in those situations. But a lot of it for us is just figuring out how can we repurpose the content at uh, the center of everything that we do is content. And that's why that collaboration between the editorial teams is so important because that's going to help drive whether it is an email campaign or a Cred Spark campaign or social media. We just see once we're actually able to incentivize them with a piece of content that's going to help them do better in their job. We kind of see those conversions increase as opposed to just. Hey, sign up for this newsletter.

Speaker C: So on the, on the social aspect of things, are you guys doing that as paid ads and Facebook boosted posts or is it coming directly from the voice air quotes, uh, as you say, uh, from the editor, um, or the audience, uh, team on pushing promotions or circulation, uh, type stuff. So subscribe now through an organic post as if it was coming from our brand.

Speaker B: It's a little bit of both. But I would say a majority is paid, you know, doing paid ads around. And it's, it's more than, and this is where we've adapted over the years. Um, it's more than just like our page or like our Facebook page, but it's really around you know, whether we have like an evergreen piece of content or a new like a newsletter to subscribe to that's going to be around a specific topic. Those are where we see those highest and lowest, highest conversion rates at the lowest cost is whenever we are doing those paid campaigns that's really getting targeted and honed in on that, the overarching audience.

Speaker A: So are you guys using your first party data from Omita to um, sort of build out the targeted audiences in the different social platforms and are you

Speaker B: finding that a little bit of both. It's a little bit of both. We're doing some of it through Omita and then we're doing some of it just through the platforms themselves. Right. I mean LinkedIn, that's where LinkedIn kind of wins in that space. They have a little bit better targeting with some of that versus Facebook is very kind of high level and you can't really dive in but you can utilize lookalike campaigns. Right. So there is that component of it. But yeah, we're doing a little bit

Speaker C: of a both and for those out there, Omita M is kind of a shared experience we have in the B2B world. We use uh, an audience management uh, company, uh software called Omita and Amanda and several other peer groups actually use it in the B2B space.

Speaker B: And that can go from also just to kind of expand on that. When we talk about marketing automation as well. That's also the system we're using. It's called Odyssey out of Omida. Um, we are using that and it allows us to query and tie everything together in real time versus having to output a list, load it into another marketing automation system system and you know we can create goals. That's another big thing. Going back you were asking about the RE engagement reactivation campaigns. Right. Um, we have goals set up so if somebody is on that RE engagement campaign and we're trying to get them before they fall off of that 12 month engage list and then they, you know, they take that action that we're asking them to. Now we don't have to send them, you know, the emails for the next few months because they've reached that goal and we're able to assign that. And so it's crew, it's truly creating a, a more dynamic experience that's taking the audience behavior into play which think is so incredibly important so that you're not just continually beating up the list. And it goes back to Stacy, to what you're talking about earlier of respecting your audience and expecting respecting your list. If you can remove unnecessary noise, then it's just going to help elevate that experience overall.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I think that's why I ask because I'm thinking about how all these practices that you're talking about are really factoring in like you said, respecting the audience and privacy first. And we're not just sort of blasting out to unqualified, untargeted audiences for the sake of a lower CPM and just hoping that we're going to get as many subscribers as we can. So parlaying that into like from a marketing standpoint, it's like that's the differentiator I think as that we offer as B2B brands and those sort of like long term benefits that marketers can experience by building a more privacy audience centric approach. So I guess I'm just asking like how that audience first privacy by design type of approach can not only keep you in complete compliance but also be a, ah, really good marketing strategy in terms of like being more effective.

Speaker B: Well, I like that you kind of put in the marketing strategy component because I think that's where when you start talking about privacy by design, you have to start at the strategy level. Right? You can't build your plan and then say, oh, okay, well now I'm going to factor in the privacy component of it. The whole concept of privacy by design is putting it first. Right? As you're starting these plans, as you're starting this strategy, hey, how is privacy going to play a role in every single step? So I'm creating my audience marketing plan and I've got a, B, C, D. Well really I have executive summary A, that is, here's how we're going to factor in privacy at each step of the way or as you're working through a, B, C, D. Hey, pro tip, side note, here's how privacy is going to play a role in this as we move forward. Whether that's collecting the opt in right or you know, in Canada with Casel, you have implicit and explicit consent and how does that play a role and what, what differentiators are you going to put in place to actually be able to adhere to both of those? Both are completely legal. Right. But you have to have different approaches and the time frame for which you can kind of keep those in place are going to be different. So how are you going to account for that? You know, in the US we're more of an opt out approach to things. And so how are you making sure that your privacy notice and all of your unsubscribes and all of that are in place, place and then across all of them, right? Data minimization, making sure that we're only collecting the necessary information. But people like we, as we start as marketers especially, right, we just want to send as much as we can because we want to see that click, we want to see that conversion. The more the better, you know, quantity, let's get it all out there. But at the end of the day, we really have to be thinking about that target audience and making sure we're writing out a plan and a strategy that's incorporating those privacy concepts and elements through every single step. Because at the end of the people kind of shrug at the privacy concept of things. But really if you have a solid privacy framework in place and you're really implementing that privacy by design concept through everything rather that, you know, whether that's marketing, product development, whatever it is, it actually enables broader use of the data. And so if you're uh, you know, if you don't look at privacy as a roadblock, but you look at it as an opportunity to enable broader use of the data and enable that trust with your audience, then I think it opens up a whole new door in how people actually can approach their strategy from, you know, from step one to letter Z in that conversion.

Speaker A: And I think we felt that the same way when, um, the Canadian anti spam law came to be. At first we were like, okay, this is a, this is going to be a daunting challenge. And in the end, when we were on the other side of it, it was like, wow, what a great exercise for us to go through to make sure that, you know, not just from a compliance standpoint, but from, uh, targeting and keeping our lists clean. Um, it ended up being a very, very like, positive experience for us, I'm sure know you guys, I mean, you guys have a lot more intricacies, I think state by state probably to deal with. And then gdpr, of course, you said it's sort of the driving force.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, there's, there's a lot of moving parts, especially in the states as you kind of, you try to keep up with the ever changing environment with it. But you know, there's also, it's also changing with the GDPR a lot. I mean, there's just, it just seems like within the privacy landscape there's always something happening. And then you have, have the component of data breaches just in general. Right. I think you could Google at any point what data breach has happened in the last week and you're going to get this long list in any space. Cybersecurity is such a huge component, I think, of everybody's lives these days. And so it's really important just to make sure that there are people that are, and I really think audience should be a huge part of that. There are people that are aware of what's happening in the privacy space and keeping, you know, their finger on the pulse of it because it can, it changes very rapidly and it, it can ultimately alter the direction in which you're trying to go and what quote unquote roadblocks it's going to put up in place. But if you have a plan in place and you under, like you're kind of anticipating what's happening and you can say, yes, this might, you know, this might kind of suck for a little bit, but once we get past it, there's, you know, the pasture is greener over there. I think that just helps kind of lay that landscape a little bit more and just really allows you to appreciate why it needs to be in place. Because I think we've all kind of seen it since COVID The whole thing has changed. We're all being inundated all the time with information, whether that's through email, a pop up ad. Ah, right. Like you can Google anything nowadays and you might get an AI thing that pops up and, or you're going to get a bunch of things in your search. And so being just well versed in that and understanding that your audience is being inundated with all those things too and that really kind of helps drive that force of the direction your plan should go to make sure that you're getting the right information in front of the right people at the right time and not just, uh, let's just send everything to everybody in the hopes that we might get a wandering eye.

Speaker C: You've uh, happened to mention AI. What is on your mind when it comes to AI? We're talking about privacy and all that kind of stuff. AI uses a lot of data that it could use in their models to learn from, especially on what B2B companies have for all that information. So what in your VP hat, looking at Endeavor, looking at the B2B world, where does AI come into, at least on the audience side and on the private side.

Speaker B: So first and foremost I think everybody has to be careful as uh, we're talking about AI and personal information to make sure you're not putting in personal information. And personal information being your audience information, AI can do a lot of really great things and help streamline a Lot of tasks like reporting and analytics and you know, even potentially data append for some things. But we have to keep in mind that our audience is still like that's personal information and we don't need to be putting that in there because there's no telling. You know, it's kind of a, uh, it's a wide open space. And yes, there are paid components of it that can help close some of that out a little bit more. But from our perspective at, you know, I think in the media space, I think as we're kind of all becoming fast followers, um, and letting kind of others test that space out a little bit quicker than we are just eliminating the PI from that as you do test it out. And I think there's a lot of opportunities to utilize AI for email content creation, banner ad content creation. It's just going to continue to grow and be disruptive. And I don't mean that in entirely a negative term. Right. I don't necessarily mean disruptive being completely negative in the space, but it is going to produce its own challenges. You know, even the iapp, they now have the International association of Privacy Professionals, they even have a certification now around AI. And so we can just see how important it is going to continue to become in the privacy space. But there's a lot of great applications for it. And I just think that we have to be careful in how we're doing it and just I think everybody is kind of, uh, well aware of the potential implications that it's going to have to traffic. Um, and then how are we as a media company, you know, as media companies, how are we trying to offset that with making sure that we have the right resources in place? And how are we going to adjust any potential content strategies if it's needed to help adapt for that? But then also that comes back to audience engagement is even more important than it ever has been because we are going to have other competing factors out there that are just, you know, screaming for our audience's attention.

Speaker C: Well, and I think the term disruptive, uh, is, is a good one because you look at all the things in the past have that have been termed disruptive. What's happened is, yes, it's kind of turned the industry that it's involved in on their heels a little bit. But beyond that first year, the industry has gotten different but better. In a lot of cases, I'm thinking, um, obvious ones are the iPhone. Um, you know, nobody thought they needed all that in their pocket. And then all of a sudden there is this huge multi Billion dollar developer core now dedicated to strictly things on the iPhone and now Android because that has become the de facto standard. Create very robust uh, oss on your phones. So very disruptive. But uh, made the overall industry much better. Uh, some might say a little differently, but um, BlackBerry being one of them. But yeah, like I think AI, at least on the B2B side, on the audience side, on all this kind of, all this information we're sitting on right now, providing we can figure out, and again as fast followers, we are looking around to other people to see what they're doing. But once it gets figured out by the bigger players, like I think it's going to be a boon for a lot of things. Like I say, even on the production side, like you could see things coming, going from start to finish strictly on an AI trend, placing ads, um, in the dummies and all that kind of stuff. So there's so much room to change our industry for the better. We just gotta, we just gotta watch for it when it comes.

Speaker B: Right? Yeah, and I think that's a really good point too where, um, you know, recognizing it too so as it starts coming, making sure we're not just sloughing it off and saying no, not for me, but definitely being able to recognize that, but also always having that human element to it. You know, I think people worry about, well, AI is just going to come completely take my job and do this or do that. But at the end of the day we need to have a human touch to it. There has to be that, that and the laws. Right, the laws are even kind of saying some of that when it comes to certain laws around the automated processing, there has to be a human element to some of it. Otherwise, you know, consumers have the right to opt in, opt out, depending on where you're looking at. So I do think, yes, there's going to be a lot of opportunities with AI, but I think that's where everybody kind of coming back to the privacy component too. People just need to be well versed in it. Um, it can be a scary thing. But as people, you know, the more you on the technical side and on the privacy side of things, the less scary it becomes and just how you can then just provide that information and be more helpful in this space overall.

Speaker C: Yeah, 100% agree on the human element of it. We're actually working on what we're calling the Human Content Initiative. Kind of our promise to our readers that we will use AI to uh, augment content. We're never going to use it to Create content, we'll use it to change content for a different platform, like summarize that kind of thing. But there's always going to be that human first touch to it.

Speaker B: Am interested to see over the course of the next year or so, starting to go into different companies privacy notices and just kind of searching the AI component and see how much those change. You know, you can just see how privacy notices have changed, you know, year over year and now you have like a whole component around Casel and the CCPA and the GDPR and how you're processing all this. And then you have ah, um, you know, the global opt out. And so I'm curious to see how AI starts creeping its own way into these privacy notices and to what extent people are actually saying that they're gonna quote, unquote, protect consumer rights, how and how they utilize AI to do that.

Speaker C: So you're actually reading the uh, privacy notices on different websites.

Speaker B: I do, I do. It's just, it's again, it's interesting to me. Um, and I have to review ours on a regular basis too. Our uh, chief administrative and legal officer will send it over and say, hey, review this. And so I start reviewing these a little bit more and I like to kind of make comparisons as I look through it. And it's nice, like I better understand what people are, what other people are doing with my information as I go from site to site. I do like the privacy stuff.

Speaker A: Do you think that the expectations of your advertisers and your marketing clients are their expectations sort of aligning with your efforts and everything we've talked about today in terms of being privacy compliant, are we still seeing sort of a gap in terms of like their focus on vanity metrics and volume and impression questions and sort of quantity over quality?

Speaker B: That's a great question. And I think it depends. We have several clients who are very much here fill out all of this privacy and compliance information and you know, it's 10, 15 pages worth of information that we have to fill out. And then we have others who not so much. Right. They're just give me as much as you can give me. So I think it's variable, but we are starting to see it more and more. So I definitely think the advertising advertisers and the clients are starting to start, are starting to think about it because as it stands right now in the U.S. anyway, a lot of the B2B exemptions are going away. Those exemptions are narrowing and that plays a big role into it. Um, the other side to that too is consumers are becoming more and more aware of their privacy rights. And so I think those two things in tandem are going to make everybody start acting, reacting a little bit more, you know, trying to incorporate more of that privacy by design into the products they're building out. And then it requires. Requires us to do the same. Not that we haven't been already. Yes, I do think it is. It's a big thing that's just going to continue. And I, as time goes on, I think we're just going to see that more and more. And a lot of people don't want to deal with the privacy and compliance stuff, so they outsource it to attorneys. Right. And so those attorneys are going to be like, here, have your vendors fill this information out.

Speaker C: So, one final question from me, Amanda, and I can't help but ask it. You're a VP of audience, and I want to know is. And kind of piggybacking on Stacy's quantity versus quality of a list, where are we going as an industry industry? Uh, even as Endeavor Annex here, uh, like we're looking at lists of a certain size that advertisers have been used to over the years. We know sometimes those lists, there's a certain amount of people active on those lists. There's a certain amount that are kind of active for salespeople that are concerned about those numbers.

Speaker B: I think with us as an industry and something that, you know, we've been having conversations internally about, it's all one, I think it's that trust that, that the sales people and the audience teams have to have together to be able to actually have that open conversation on the audience side. We need to be utilizing more behaviors. So, yes, this person may not have opted into that one specific thing the client was going to send, but if we're building something out, we know that we have an audience that's engaged and we know they're engaging on these specific things on the website, and they may have engaged in two or three other emails. Now we're really looking at how can we capture all those engagement, because guess what? Now we have a piece of content that they're probably going to be interested in. They've already shown that interest. And so bringing that behavior component into it and making sure we're being more on the consultative side with our clients. Right? Because, yeah, they've probably been expecting this list size for forever, but now it's changing the narrative to, hey, we're looking at how we're expanding going about our targeting to benefit you, to make sure you're getting, you're getting the right content in front of the right people. Here's what we have for you. You. And it's kind of changing that narrative because, yes, it's a very hard conversation to have. And there might be other questions that come, uh, you know, come out of that. But one, your client's going to see that you've got their best interest at heart. And then two, they're getting smarter too. Right? Like this isn't just us that's starting to see this. Their marketers are starting to utilize more behavioral data. We're starting to see, you know, their sales teams are probably utilizing intent data. And so it's only natural for other others to be expecting very similar things out of, you know, out of us as their vendors so that we have that full picture view and just saying it, you know, a name is just not a name. Right. We're trying to really incorporate the behavioral component into things so that you're getting the right information in front of the right people. And I say that a lot, like if you talk to me and I've said it a lot on this call, getting the right information in front of the right people at the right time. Because, uh, at the end of the day, when it comes to audience marketing, that's the core of what we're doing. Other otherwise we're just beating up the list for what? Well, and to piggyback on that, I think another component too is multi, uh, touch. Right. It's not all just about email. How do we get out of email if we're utilizing those behaviors more now we can using omita and personalization. Right. And other platforms, I'm sure do this too. But we can focus. Okay. We can now target this ad only to people who have visited this topic center in the last seven days and or clicked on this article in the last 30 days. And now we're able to start getting them in different areas where we might not just have to send them emails over and over and over again, but again that comes back down to targeting the right people and in the right space. Right. So maybe if they're not wanting to engage in email, maybe they're very engaged on your website and utilizing behaviors. You can start seeing that more and more.

Speaker C: Well, that was amazing. Amanda, I want to thank you for your time today. And where can we find, uh, you, uh, on the Internet.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, thank you all. I appreciate your time. This has been a fun conversation. Um, I'm out on LinkedIn, so you know, Amanda Lance, uh, Endeavor Business Media and, yeah, I appreciate the time, and I really look forward to connecting with you all again.

Speaker C: We'll see you at the next Chicago event, I'm sure. And in the meantime, I'm Kyle Shea.

Speaker A: I'm Stacey Broadruck.

Speaker C: We'll see you next time. This is Annex is brought to you by Annex Business Media Canada's largest B2B media company. Annex Business Media. Great content, better people. Subscribers can binge all episodes of this is Annex on your podcast service of choice.