Risk Financing in the Public and Private Sector with Randy Jouben

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Uh,

Speaker C: Welcome to the Voices of Risk Management, the premier podcast that gives listeners a 30 minute peek into the minds of risk and insurance leaders. Now kick back and explore the world of risk management with your hosts, Hunter Fosnot and Katie Crow.

Speaker B: Welcome back to the Voices of Risk Management podcast. We're here live at Rams in Chicago 2025. So happy to be here today with a very distinguished guest. We have Randy Jobin, who is the risk manager at Fairfax county government, which is in Virginia. For those of you who may not be familiar, thank you for joining us today.

Speaker C: Oh, my pleasure.

Speaker B: Tell us a little bit about your role. What are you working on?

Speaker C: Uh, so working in county government these days is very exciting. There's a lot of things going on and like everyone el else, um, we're having fewer resources because our tax dollars are being spent. But it's interesting, Fairfax county just went to collective bargaining for our employees a few years ago. So we continue to work with the police and fire unions. Um, but in addition to that, uh, although we don't have a very large homeless population, we still have one in Fairfax County. And in one of the highest economic areas of the country, we also experience a lot of people who can't be in their homes or affordable homes. So right now we're working on actually, um, buying a hotel and converting it over to a homeless shelter, opening two or three additional homeless shelters. And then in addition, we're just constantly working on new projects and everything else to keep the community going. So, you know, we handle everything from people who wrestle up dogs to criminals to fire to, um, drug. And we just actually are now putting in a naloxone program for opioid response. And that's been a really interesting rollout.

Speaker B: Who knew that working in a county would be so interesting?

Speaker A: Albeit Fairfax county is not, uh, your typical county, I think. Right.

Speaker C: We are, uh, one of the 15. I think we're in the top 15, uh, 1.1 million residents. Interesting fact, one, uh, out of every Virginian is in Fairfax county because the total population state is 8.8 million. And so we compare ourselves in size to maybe Maricopa county, um, which is also another big county and it's quite diverse. Everyone thinks you're outside D.C. um, you have a lot of doctors and lawyers, but you do have people on the full economic spectrum. So there's a lot of different concerns and excitement there. And uh, our neighbor being D.C. um, it makes it interesting. And then with Amazon moving over to Arlington, we have a lot of issues with more people coming into the area. So it is quite exciting.

Speaker A: I mean, this in not a negative way, but Fairfax county is also known for a little bit of traffic, correct?

Speaker C: Well, you know, I grew up in Jersey. When we say something was 10, uh, miles away, that meant under 10 minutes. Uh, we don't go by time. You know, something that's, uh, a half hour away. It's your next door neighbor almost sometimes. So there are some more congested areas of the county. Um, so that's making it very, very interesting commute. But luckily I'm close enough. And, uh, what's really cool is now we have the Silver Line, which is our Ramada, Washington. Ah, Metro area transit authority. That actually goes from both of the airports to other points, so does reduce some of the traffic. Um, but definitely it's a hard thing getting from point A to B.

Speaker A: It's a lot of people, and then you're bordered by the capital. So I understand totally. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got to where you are today? Um, did you always want to go into risk management?

Speaker C: No. Uh, uh, like a lot of people in my generation, unlike Katie here, who went to school for risk management. Actually, we're both political science majors, so, um, I was a political science major. Uh, I was an rotc. I was a commissioned second lieutenant. And I literally fell into insurance. Uh, one day I was going to work in the cafeteria where I worked and slipped, um, and fell. Busted up my knee. And that was the end of my military career. And so I had to find a job. And I'm looking all over and everything else, and finally, uh, interviewed at Allstate, and they said, well, we think you're a really good candidate for the management program, but you sound like you're perfect for claims.

Speaker B: Is that a compliment?

Speaker C: At the time, I thought it was. So I worked for Prudential in Claims. Then, um, from there I went to selective and then AIG's home office. Um, but it was that particular that time. And actually it's funny because the honoree for the hall of fame is, um, from Marriott, it's, um, Brad Bradwood. And I actually wanted, um, to work in risk management. He was Risk Manager of the Year. And I read about it. I'm like, well, what's this risk? I mean, we can actually prevent accidents. And that's when I started transitioning my career, moved down to the D.C. area, worked for consulting, uh, firms and for a brokerage. And then finally, um, I wound it up at the Red Cross, which was a great organization at the time. This was in the early 90s, um, I left there right after 9 11, um, and I got my first full time leading risk manager job in the Catholic Diocese of Arlington. Did that for a number of years and then five guys and finally, um, the county government. So, so it's been a interesting perspective to see not only the various things that risk management does, um, but the various sides of the business. And I'll tell you that, um, a lot of people come to the risk management role through the broker and the underwriting role. I'm really glad I have a claims background because a, it gives me some great war stories to break the ice with, but it gives you a different perspective because the underwriters and salespeople had one intent, but when it gets in the hands of the claims person, it might be a different intent. So it's really given me a really good, um, orientation to the industry and also beyond that, what's covered outside the insurance realm. Using other risk financing techniques, picking up

Speaker A: kind of at the American Red Cross, you became involved with risk management there. What did you learn about service nonprofit risk management that's kind of helped you throughout the rest of your career?

Speaker C: It's interesting. I actually, I'm going to make a reference. Uh, one of my managers, um, when I was with the um, Catholic Diocese and people said, well, we don't have a budget. You know, we're not for profit, we're not for profit. And his saying was our margin is our mission. And it gave me a real good understanding. And um, although I was in primarily the claims role there, uh, as other roles opened up, I did some environmental work for them, filled, um, in for the loss control people and stuff. But I learned that, you know, if we need 60,000 units of blood and the cost of a claim is X amount, how many more units of blood do we need to collect? Because we made a simple mistake. And it came onto one of my early philosophies that, you know, if I'm not paying this claim, what am I doing? Am I teaching a child to swim? Am I teaching CPR and AED and saving a life? And you really learn and get a sense of mission behind of what we're doing. Um, a lot of people say risk managers, just bean counters or the naysayers, but when you realize how much you can help an organization complete their mission, um, it's more fulfilling, um, I can say more than the paycheck because nonprofits don't always pay the best. But it's been a great career working in the government and the nonprofit Sectors.

Speaker A: So at American Red Cross, what is their. This is a very nice question. Besides do good and help people, what is their mission?

Speaker C: Um, well, they, when I was there we had the, um, the strategic blood reserves. So blood is always in need and blood donors. And I actually have a five gallon pill from donating m. They made it easy to donate when you work there. Um, but that's kind of it. And then a lot of people don't understand. They have um, aid to military families. You know, if you have someone who unfortunately has a death in the family, they helped get them home. So they bring a lot of people back and forth for the nursery. And one of the really interesting things that Red Cross does that a lot of people don't know about was the Holocaust reconnection, uh, center where they were reconnecting families from the Holocaust. Um, and you don't think about these other things and who's doing it. So that was really some of the neat things we were doing there. And as they continue their mission and um, you know, FEMA does a lot of great work with floods and crud, but you know, the Red Cross is really the boots on the ground and helping get that money out and getting resources, really helping people in need. And you know, people don't realize, you know, there's so many different charities these days to give to in a disaster that the Red Cross, how, how much they really are still on the front lines.

Speaker A: When you're a nonprofit trying to do good and you're the largest provider of drawing blood and storing, it seems like something that is a potential liability in a number of different areas. How do you go about creating, uh, a, uh, risk management strategy with limited resource, but you're doing something that is inherently somewhat risky, correct?

Speaker C: Well, at the time I was the one directing the mission of the overall risk management. Our director at the time just, um, had a really good sense of that, um, really tied into the mission. So whatever the mission of the organization is, we broke that mission into what we did and how we provided risk management. And it was another valuable lesson that I've carried on in my subsequent roles. Um, but really you just have to remember who you're working for. Um, we had a lot of property donated. Um, it was all brownfields, so it was full of toxic. Um, so you just kind of remember at the end of the day, what is this going for? What is that mission and what is my role in it and carrying it out with really good, clear directions from our leadership.

Speaker A: Very cool. And then Katie, uh, you're a Big five. You like five guys, right?

Speaker B: Um, I'm obsessed with the Cajun fries. I'm not sure if you've had them, but they're amazing. They're so good.

Speaker A: So as your career. Can we talk a little about this? As your career progressed, you took a position. Director, risk management at Five Guys. Very successful, cool company, big fan. Um, what was that like now, moving from the nonprofit sector into the for profit area.

Speaker B: And did you get discounted food?

Speaker C: I did not get discounted food. I actually, uh, I don't know if everyone m remembers George Plimpton. Paper Tiger and, uh, Empty Net. Great writer and what he did in both of those books. He went into the world of the athlete for both hockey and I think he did it for golf later and for, uh, the Detroit Lions. Well, I kind of took a page out of his book and I started on the ground, put on the whites, learned how they cook, learned how they do everything in the actual shops, um, and went through a vast orientation. So I knew from the ground up, you know, how five guys or what the five guys way was. Um, and that was kind of interesting, just learning it and everything else. And I've always loved cooking and paid for college actually, uh, working in kitchen. So it was kind of neat. Um, but once again it was that old philosophy. If you're working in fast food, you have a 30% EBITDA, um, earning for income tax, depreciation. So once again, If I have $1,000 claim, my cost for that claim that is uninsured is 5 to $10,000. So if I want to make that $10,000 back, I need to sell $30,000 worth of burgers. Well, when I told the district managers all you need to do is prevent one claim, suddenly they're like, well, okay, ladder safety came out. Slip and fall safety can out, protective gears. And it was really easy because, um, their margin was their margin and there were bonus on and everything else. I found it easier to motivate people. Um, and when you sold things in the nonprofit, uh, when you talk about return on investment, of loss control, it's very hard to materialize. But working for profit, it was very, very easy to convince them of what we were doing. And when we were constantly making exceeding budget and losses were reducing, you know, I had one year, uh, a 20% reduction in loss with the 50% increase in payrolls. Um, so it's like, wow, this is working out really well and really doing. And we did a little bit, uh, when they were going international. So I got to work on A little bit of the international reverse flow insurance and some other things there. So it was a really, really great experience.

Speaker A: Uh, when you were at five guys, were you involved with the broker selection process?

Speaker C: A little bit. Uh, the five, uh, guys is run by the family. So they kind of worked into it. And we had our benefits and our property and casualty with the same broker. So I was very much, not so much involved in selecting them, but how we actually paid them and rewarded them and we moved to a fee for service model and once again we bonus them on certain incentives. Um, one thing that I think is probably ridiculous in this industry that now Katie gets to experience is everybody wants a certificate of incentives insurance 30 days before you actually renew it. Um, but we incentivized our broker that if we actually renewed 30 days early, they got a large part of their bonus incentive. And it just helped me out with the landlords and everything else, get my job done and getting the paper out. So we worked with the brokers in those relationships. It was really fun to kind of think of new ways to do things. And as we were expanding looking at new products, it was the early day of cyber. Um, payment card interface had to come in and we're dealing with the international had to deal with that. So we had a lot of different things to work on. So we had a really great partnership with the broker.

Speaker A: Interesting. That's, appreciate that insight. And that's not, it's not talked about often, but when you come into a privately held company that there's a family relationship with a broker, um, it limits you, you have to make it work, I mean to some extent. So there's some professionalism, uh, that goes into. It sounds like you work very creative in how you um, address the compensation motivation piece to achieve, uh, your goals. Very cool.

Speaker C: Cool. I learned a good lesson when I was with the Catholic diocese. Um, you know, I wasn't happy with the program we had there. Um, so I changed it. Yes, I'm really, I was trying to change our programs and I started working with some of the Lloyd underwriters, um, because I wasn't happy with the church based programs in the US and it was all on relationships and handshakes, you know, and if I said I was going to do something, if I was going to drop my losses or you know, do it. And that's the way I've always approached my relationship with the broker. It's listen, here's what I need, here's what I want. I know it's demanding, but at the end we're in a partnership, I'm not going to beat you up over renewals or run to a new broker because it's one bad year. You know, everyone has a bad year in claims and sometimes insurance carriers need to rate, raise rates. If you can partner together in the bad times, it makes the good times so much better for everyone else. Um, and then you get a real collegial where, you know, in spite of your education, everything you do, there's a, ah, constantly changing industry. You know, you can go to them and say, hey, what can we do here? There's not a product, is there a uh, rent, a captive is, you know, how do we handle this, what a different model is? Let's troubleshoot this together. Almost as if you're doing a tabletop exercise on your coverages. You know, what could go wrong, how's the policy respond? And you kind of go through it just like you would in disaster or business continuity. You do the same thing before you write the policy, especially in manuscript. So that's a little exercise that I've done throughout my career too.

Speaker A: Fascinating. Thank you.

Speaker B: Do you know why they called it five guys? I'm coming back to that.

Speaker C: So originally it's a funny story, Jerry, uh, Morell, who started the company went uh, to school in Michigan and uh, he made his money actually in insurance, selling life insurance. A little known fact, if you don't know his bio. But he wanted kind of a family place where people can come in and eat and enjoy like he knew around Michigan, um, where he went to school. And so essentially the five guys was originally his four sons and himself. So that is the original five guys. Subsequently he had a fifth son. So now they say that the five guys are the five sons. Um, but that's where the name originally comes from. And it was kind of funny. Um, I'm not sure how many people remember the original. And it was just small little five family owned stores. It used to be five guys famous burgers and fries. And it was kind of like a tongue in cheek, you know, to kind of get the marketing out and everything else. But later when they actually uh, became famous and everything else, they actually dropped that from their, from their logo. So it's just kind of funny organization how it works. And uh, working there was really fun because each of the sons had a different part of the operation and all. And uh, it was really neat to see the way they do, did things.

Speaker B: I didn't know that I learned something new now.

Speaker A: Yeah, I assume there was five guys. Like actually that, that was enough But I didn't know it was the uh, the uh, family. Um, so now kind of moving forward here you got some private or the private sector experience? Non profit, private. Now you move over to the municipality side of things. What, um, what led you to go into that space and what, how has it differed from your previous experience?

Speaker C: Um, I like the public sector. Um, and I live in Fairfax county and the government center is like eight miles from my home. Um, and I always wanted to work for a college or university because that's like a small city. So as I was thinking about it, I'm like, yeah, I want to work for a small city or a big county as the case may be. Um, I just saw the different things that they do and I thought I had some particular skill sets that could lead that mission and help the organization move and grow in the direction it was going to. So that's kind of what made it interesting for me. For me, um, it was a place I really wanted to be. Um, and I really like what we're doing, you know, through the taxpayer dollar. You are very, very conscious of that. Um, and you're conscious of who's paying your salary. And I like that. Um, you see them, you see them in the store, you see them on the crowded streets, literally. Um, so your neighbor is your boss in one sense or another. Um, you know, it's kind of funny because you hear a lot of stories and everything else. Um, the county has 425 parks, so that's a lot of parkland. Occasionally a tree falls and uh, one of our good friends, a tree fell in their backyard and they wanted to make claim against the county. And I had explained to them why it's not our responsibility and everything else. So there are challenges, but, um, that's what you sign up for. It's kind of fun that way.

Speaker A: So for those that aren't that familiar, probably me being included. How does um, like Fairfax county in insurance meet? Like, what do you buy insurance? What do you buy insurance for? You know, what's self funded? What does that landscape look like?

Speaker C: So it's a pretty, um, I actually don't use the. I hate the term insurance. So my boss makes fun of me because I always call it risk financing. Um, but it's a pretty interesting risk financing scheme. Um, back in 1986 when there was a lot of problems with workers comp and municipality property claims, uh, the county government decided that they're going to go self insured. And at that particular time they were self insuring, um, under a Million dollars in the workers compensation program and they had $100,000 retention on the liability. And that was a lot of money in 1986 I guess. Um, so the program kind of advanced and developed. I came in in 2017 and once I got my feet on the ground to see how it, when I actually restructured um, our entire program, we now retain quite a bit more than 750 on the workers compensation and we have a substantial multimillion dollar portion now of the general liability, the professional liabilities and everything else, um, in the area of medical malpractice or miscellaneous medical professional. You know, we have a lot of nurses and doctors working for the county. We do self insure that because in Virginia it's capped for the damages. So that was a really good exposure that we could see. We self insure on the environmental and we need to comply every year with the um, state government to prove that we are substantial. We're in a really good uh, position in Fairfax County. We are one of the few triple, triple a rated bond municipalities. So it does lend to our ability for people to give us room on uh, self insurance and projects like that. Um, and what we do is I look at my self insurance program also reducing losses and the premium I would have paid, the money I would have paid in premium if I make that back in three years. To me that's a successful transfer of risk. Um, and so far we've been either lucky or successful whatever the case may be. Um, and property market, um, which Katie was my broker on soon after coming to the county. Uh, she helped me put that program together. Um, we had to leave one carrier due to losses and we had to go into another carrier. And once again it was a handshake and trust me, we'll get our losses down. But we did need to increase our retention quite significantly and I think we now have a nice balance. But I do always find myself understanding the budget in the county and justifying where our premiums are and that risk reward ratio doing that scenario.

Speaker A: One popular topic right now is um, legal system abuse and the need for some tort reform. I think in most cases the examples used are against a private company. Is this uh, an issue or a concern of yours in the public space as well, where nuclear verdicts uh, can hit a municipality that's self insuring and well beyond maybe what you've planned for?

Speaker C: Interestingly enough, I wrote an article a few years ago about nuclear uh, verdicts and it was called the Reptile Mind. Um, it's kind of funny of where people go and where juries go and how plaintiff counsel gets them there. You know, and to me, nuclear verdicts are a product of bad claims handling sometimes or just making a misjudgment. And to me, you handle your claims fairly. You pay what you owe, you defend what you not, you take care of people, and you automatically take some of that off the table. So we do that, and I think a lot of private companies do that. But we do see or have potentials for mass torts. Um, you know, there's always a concern with some of the things going on in the environmental arena. There's a lot of governmental lands that plays into us. So, you know, we do try and look at claims that that could always be a possibility. Um, and it's not always, oh, it's the taxpayer on the jury, the taxpayer doesn't want to pay their money. But a lot of times taxpayers get mad, and it could be they try and send a message. So we are very, very cognizant of that, and we try and make that evaluation, um, when we go through claims. And this way we hopefully don't get into that scenario. Uh, we have a great relationship with our excess car. Um, although they're quite high up on the excess. We see what's going on not only in the county, but throughout the state and other municipalities. So, you know, there's a lot of education and reading. Just because you have your job and been in the industry over 30 years doesn't mean you stop learning. And that's what we constantly do to help avoid some of those pitfalls. Um,

Speaker B: and two, I understand that you're, uh, speaking at the conference as well.

Speaker C: Yes, I am. We're talking about, um, AI, uh, which is kind of interesting, very hot topic. Uh, I don't know how much of a commercial we want for that particular presentation, but, uh, it's funny because AI is something that everyone's out there and it's the new bright shiny toy. Um, but if you've been in the industry 30 years, you've seen a lot of the bright shiny toys, um, that become tarnished very quickly. Um, but, you know, it's just another tool. You know, if you use the tool properly, you know, at the end of the day, it's people making the decisions. And what we're ensuring is that the people use the tool. And once again, education is the key to that. You know, make sure that your employees know how to use the tool, they're using it for the right thing, and go back into that trust but verify, um, because, uh, if you know a lot of uh, I've seen some of the results from the Google research come back and it's like, well, okay, that's popular opinion, but it's not facts. And you can't take away from good scholarly articles, good cases and good research. I would hate to be the risk manager that relied on, um, AI to get a case to defend myself on a nuclear verdict potential only to realize that the case never existed. Um, so there are some pitfalls to AI, but if you kind of manage it properly, I think it's something else that will really make us successful.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think even on the education side, believe it or not, uh, AI is like a great thing, but, uh, needs to be strongly considered. So we're big in technology. We started integrating into our education experience. But then to our surprise, we had some large carriers who were like, we don't let you know, we're not using AI of any means. And we're like, what's going on? But they were, they were educating us like they need to get their minds around the risk. Meaning if a huge insurer has, you know, if they had a thousand people messing around, prompting it with, how do you deny a claim? For example, is that subpoena? Could you be in a courtroom having to. And until they understand that, they're being very cautious. So I was like, I understand it

Speaker C: now, but are they really being cautious? And uh, let me tell you why. You run a large trucking company, you have telematics and everything else for your truck drivers. My drivers aren't driving over their logs. They're doing everything right to me. You're just sticking your head in the sand because they're doing everything wrong. So the company that says my employees can't use AI, the employees are going home, doing it on their personal computers and bringing the work product in. So they're completely avoiding recognizing the risk they really have. And that's kind of short sighted. Um, if there's something new, shiny and bright, people are going to want to play with it, they're going to want to use it. Whether you give them permission or not, they're going to do it. And so you need to embrace it and help them learn and engage it so this way you can actually manage the risk as opposed to just being blind to risk. Because, you know, uh, I learned this through nonprofits. You don't work in nonprofits and governments and don't take risk. We have firefighters running into buildings, we have police officers on the streets in potentially dangerous situation. We take care of homeless and some other people in these communities, they're at risk. We don't just say, oh, we're not going to do it, because it's our mission to do it. So when you know the risk, you can manage the risk. You can teach them how to avoid the pitfalls of the risk. If you're saying, oh, nobody do it, and none of my employees are doing it, I just think they're being shortsighted in recognizing what those risks really are.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're mouth to God's ear. That's, uh, I mean, you're right. You're telling the truth. That's what's happening.

Speaker C: I didn't even have those connections at the diocese when they worked there. To God's ear. Well played.

Speaker A: Um, I just got one more question around municipalities. So, um, a lot of the news about the administration and, uh, reducing the size of government and people, you know, losing their jobs and all that and that. I know you're at the state level, uh, but what does that mean in regards to risk management when you just start drastically reducing the workforce? Um, is there new exposures or new problems that this, uh, creates? Do you know what I'm asking?

Speaker C: A lot of those government workers are our constituents. They live in Fairfax County. Um, a lot of people don't realize a lot of federal workforce is actually outside of the D.C. area, but a lot of them are ours. And, you know, it's kind of interesting. We moved to, erm, 10, 20 years ago, um, and we always talk about the upside of risk. The upside of risk, the upside of risk. But who really takes advantage of the upside of risk? Is it really just a theory? Well, that's what it is for us now. We have the upside of risk. We have all these great dedicated federal workers who are being out of jobs. We have jobs open in the county, in the county government. So we've started doing outreach, education, trying to bring them into our roles where we had openings. So we are actually looking at some of it in a little bit of a positive light to see if we can actually take in some of these workers, have them work for the county government and then give their talents to us. So that's kind of a way to look at it. We're very concerned from a tax base, um, because a lot of people live in the area, um, due to the fact that they work for the federal government. So we definitely want to keep them in the area, um, to continue the tax base and keep the great things we're doing in the county. So I think the County's doing a really good job doing that outreach, trying to help them find positions and keep them in their homes.

Speaker A: That's an interesting point. You talk about the upside of risk, and while I'm not saying anybody losing their job is an upside, that's certainly not. But your talent potentially in the county could go up by some of these high talented, uh, professionals stepping into your roles. I didn't think about that. That's interesting. Okay, I think we got time for two more questions.

Speaker C: Oh, okay.

Speaker B: Um, so, Randy, you obviously have just a few years of experience under your pals.

Speaker C: That's the polite way of saying I'm old. Thank you, Katie.

Speaker B: So tell me, knowing everything that you know today, what would you. What advice would you have given yourself when you were first starting at Prudential and Claims?

Speaker C: I probably wouldn't have listened to myself. Um, because who. In their first year, you know, you have all the solutions. You knew what was going on. I actually, the one piece of advice I picked up from someone, it was my supervisor at the time, um, Carlos Martin. I don't know where he is in the industry or anything else, but I'll never forget his name. He said, randy, read everything, anything that comes across. Read everything from case law to business insurance to risk insurance to anything. Read everything. Be curious. Um, I'd give that same advice, and now I can actually say, ted Lasso said, be curious. But that's just that the one thing is just absorb any piece of education you can get, both formal and informal. Listen to people, talk to people, find out their ideas. And not only in our industry, because a lot of the ideas and concepts I've taken, I've stolen, excuse me, borrowed from other industries, and they just kind of work. And I'd say, be curious, read everything. Um, and don't be so worried about where you are. Just kind of have a loose idea of where you want to go. Um, uh, I was a second lieutenant. That was my career. That's all I knew I wanted to do. And suddenly like that, it was, um, it happens. In our industry, we've been through a number of reallocations, rifts, and everything else. So be flexible. I think that's the three words of advice, um, I would give to someone coming into the industry.

Speaker A: One last thing, and this has been. We've done. I think this is our 60th episode. So we've met some really tremendous risk leaders. And one of the consistent themes across all the great risk leaders is, uh, an investment in yourself and knowledge development. And you've certainly Done that to an immense degree. Um, how has that played a role, and, uh, why did you choose to do that?

Speaker C: I always believed in education. I always thought it was a way to get ahead. I'm the first college student in my family. Um, so I found it was a way to personally help me. And I didn't go to school for insurance, so I had to figure things out. So first place you went? Turned to the Institute, maybe shot a little hard, initially went right for the cpcu. That's the. The top of the mark. That's where we went. Um, and so I started there. And then from the other educational experiences, I kind of took a little break from the CPCU. Like I mentioned, I passed my first exam in 1988 and my last exam in 2013. Um, but in the interim, I got my, um, arm because I started working for Risk Management M. And then I wanted to do more in the claim I was teaching claims people. So I decided since I'm teaching aic, I might as well get my aic. Um, and then I was working on some designations in business continuity to prove that I can do this when business continuity is moving over from disaster recovery. I wanted to prove that, uh, it was kind of funny. One day I woke up and I am looking at the progress tracker. I'm like, I want one test away from the ains. Well, sure, what the hell, we'll knock that off. And so that was it. But I think each thing that you bring in brings a different perspective. Um, I didn't know a lot about underwriting because I was never an underwriter. So I picked up the books, learned the language, and then I started talking with people who were underwriters about part of the problem and everything else. Um, I think my CPC youth, now that I finally got it, um, is a credential that is always going to have great credibility, um, and great value. Even though I went on, um, to get my master's later on my mba, you know, I think my MBA and my CPCU are probably two of my biggest accomplishments. Um, one, because one, uh, took so long to do, but you learn to value it. Um, and other people see it and they're like, well, what's that about? What's the value of this designation over that one? And I'm like, why are you choosing get them both? Um, you can't have too many. And when you do, you just don't put them after your name anymore. Uh, you just put them in your LinkedIn profile. Um, but that's just it. I think education, whether Formal, informal is something everyone just has to do. I, um, am looking at two or three designations still to get M, probably, um, some through the institute, some through other organizations. But I think now a lot of them have come together, um, and there's a general recognition that, yeah, there isn't as much competition. Go get them all. Uh, it just makes you a better person.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, we just launched a cyber risk management designation. That's awesome. I recommend that. And, uh, we also have a associate in Insurance data analytics, which is a shorter, but really teaches you about how data is used. Both of those are options, but I

Speaker C: really, uh, I have the data analytics books. I was trying to. When I was an adjunct at, um, Gallaudet. I tried to get them to teach that course, to be the first one, um, to do it. They didn't embrace it, but, um, it's some great material in the data analytics. Um, we could do a whole other podcast on that.

Speaker A: So much nobody knows. But, um, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on our show. We love your career, and we'll have to have you back on again soon.

Speaker C: Great. Thanks for the opportunity.