Leadership Is a Contact Sport: How to Stop Avoiding the Tough Stuff

Speaker A: Uh, if you've got a problem with a team, go look in the mirror and say, what is it that I'm not doing? What is it that I am doing? What is it that I could be doing better? Because the worst answer you could possibly give is, I will lead them better when they are better behaved. You've got to get them to want to follow you by your behavior, which is the true nature of leading by example.

Speaker B: Welcome to the show. I'm Corinne Hynes, and this is the Visible Leader podcast. I've been coaching leads and teams for over a decade now, and I am completely obsessed with the art and science of leading effectively. So together with my guests, I get under the surface of topics like how to have a high performance conversation, the myths of resilience, and how to get out of meeting gridlock, all while making sure you get tips and ideas that you can implement straight away. Leadership is a contact sport, but I think some people are just not sure on the rules. That's why they end up saying, my door is always open, instead of stepping over the threshold themselves and checking in with their people. And if you think good relationships is a nice to have. Research by the CMI showed that nearly 30% of their respondents had left a job because of a bad working relationship with their boss. I think it's all about valuing other, uh, humans and their contribution. And I'm pretty sure my guest today would agree. He's Andy Edwards, the creator of Relationomics, and he helps businesses leverage relationships for better results. He's a behavioral psychologist, an international speaker, and he shares a practical model of improving workplace relationships. He believes that relationships are the true currency of business. And I had a great time talking to him, and I think you are going to really enjoy this episode. Welcome to the show, Andy.

Speaker A: Thanks very much for having me. Really good to be here.

Speaker B: So we are talking about the true currency of business, not really being money, but being relationships. So, Andy, when have you had a relationship in a work context that has been horrific?

Speaker A: Uh, sometimes we learn best from experiencing the worst possible scenario. I've got to be careful so as not to identify anybody here. But, uh, it was a long time ago and I was working in hospitality, working in marketing, business development for a boutique hotel, and the owner there was possibly no. Definitely the worst manager leader you could possibly imagine. So it was very easy to watch what he was doing and in fact, his, uh, co director watch what they were doing and literally make sure that in the future you would do the opposite. I don't know if you Remember that game back in the 1970s called Mastermind when you had to guess the pegs of your opponent? Well, a really good idea was to get it all wrong first so that you knew exactly what not to do next. And that was probably the worst leader subordinate uh, relationship I've ever had because boy did he let us know we were subordinates.

Speaker B: Oh yeah, subordinates is a nice way of phrasing that word. You don't hear subordinates so often these days, thank God. And it's sometimes difficult to know what word to use because I do use direct report. I use a report. But I do have people I work with who, who really hate the thought that there's any hierarchy really. So they want to remove that from it. And then you kind of end up getting a little bit stumble and ah, fumble a bit with it because you know, I wanted to talk later about the power dynamic, but there is a power dynamic in the mix.

Speaker A: I think there should be. And I think part of that is to recognize that and not to, not to lean into the power element of that dynamic, but lean into the authority of that dynamic and the resourcing that you are able to supply to the other person. So it would be either team member for me at a stretch, colleague. Although that again levels things out at all. I ah, quite often use certainly in my training courses those in your charge because again it m tends to place the responsibility of output of authority of that workflow and indeed the well being of that team in the charge of the uh, of the manager or the leader. So those in your charge might work. I don't know. One's minions. I don't.

Speaker B: Minions? No. The other one that I'm not a fan of is followers.

Speaker A: Followers? Oh, don't get me started. I'm sure we'll cover that a little bit later on. But uh, followers are very specific uh, use of that word. But I'm sure we'll find out as we go.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think people will believe that the relationship is important. I don't think anyone's going, especially not my lovely listeners who are a little bit of a step ahead of the normal business folk. They'll feel it's important. But what do you notice that makes you feel that people feel it's important but they're not actually following through all the time with how they actually act.

Speaker A: Yeah, the signs of a dysfunctional or less than exemplary relationship are uh, all over the place in my book, which I'm sure we'll talk about. I do refer to. Is it anecdotal or is it researched? A little bit of both. But I would estimate about 1 in 200 leaders are, uh, what I would call. There's no improving. They're just the best leaders. So that's quite a rare circumstance. So often, and I'm privileged to go into organizations and see this firsthand, the relationship issue is almost immediately apparent. There seems to be an immediate disparity between what the people in a, uh, leader's charge, the team members understand and what the leader understands. And that will manifest in all sorts of ways. And again, my privilege is that I often, uh, in fact usually tend to speak to both the leaders involved, the managers involved, and indeed the team members involved. And the way they refer to the same circumstances or indeed even an incident or an activity are so remarkably different that that must mean there is miscommunication. By definition, they're not on the same page. They're not understanding the same thing. And one of the biggest things I go in and talk about is communication, because that's the main word people say, oh, they don't communicate, or they didn't communicate to us. Communication, huge. But when you actually look at what leadership and followership might be, it's all communication. I don't think there's anything else other than communication. So, uh, when somebody says there's a communication issue, it's actually. There's an everything issue.

Speaker B: Yeah, there's an everything issue. It's true, isn't it, if you're feeling that you're not meeting each other. I suppose I'm always surprised at how often that not meeting each other issue can still be there. Even if they get on well, respect each other, achieving results. I still have conversations with team members where they feel like there's a mismatch. And then I will speak to their, you know, the manager and. And they will also recognize it. But they might recognize something completely different. Like the symptoms for them are something different. There'll be sort of a performance thing, or, uh, I just want them to step up or I notice this thing and. And then when I will be talking to that team member about it. Yes, there may be something in there around that, you know, there's always a sort of. It shows up. But I've had recent conversations where the conversation that needed to happen hadn't happened for five years. And the only way to help it happen was for me to sit and facilitate that conversation. And the results were amazing. Like, of course, wasn't even controversial. That's the thing. It was surprisingly not controversial. It wasn't Spiky. It wasn't like, oh, I've got to say this really horrendous thing. It was just a, uh, this is how I feel.

Speaker A: That's a really good. This is how I feel. This is how it is for me. And we gotta be careful about not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, on this one. Because from a leadership, a management point of view, if somebody in your team disagrees, is prepared to challenge a decision, I don't think that's in and of itself a bad thing. I'd be delighted that I had such a good relationship with my team that they were prepared to say, andy, uh, I don't get that, or andy, I don't know that that's going to work. And here's why. And I say, bring it on. Let's have those disagreements, let's have those challenges, but let's not be disagreeable in our disagreements. Let's make sure that those conflicts are positive. Uh, and recognizing that we're actually all in the same boat. We're all trying to get to the same thing. Uh, I saw a lovely cartoon a while ago where, uh, there was a group of people in a boat, and the two people, uh, one end of the boat were looking down at the other end of the boat where there was a leak. And they were saying, I'm really pleased the leak isn't at our end of the boat. And that's perfect. Isn't that clever? Because it's your boat, you're in the same boat. And I think that's a really good analogy. But conflict in and of itself. Challenge. Great, Great idea.

Speaker B: I'm going to totally steal that, Andy.

Speaker A: Have it. I did.

Speaker B: Yeah. So you're a leader. Listening to this. Are, uh, there hidden signs of. When there is misalignment in relationships, it

Speaker A: comes down to something that we were alluding to earlier on that followership piece. If you take over a team or establish a team and tell them that you are their leader, then in reality, what you've just done is become a dictator. Because nobody can tell anybody to be led by them. That is the choice of the people being led. As a manager, you can say, I need you to do X, Y and Z, and I will pay you for it. And you go, okay, fine. You can sort of tell people you're their manager, because that's a very clear and hierarchical arrangement. But leadership, if you're a leader, you've got to earn that trust, that respect. Uh, you've got to be able to inspire, encourage, engage. Motivate the people in your charge to do well, to do their job even better. And part of the problem is when leaders and managers have been promoted away from the shop floor, but are expected to continue being very much part of that shop floor and not being given an opportunity, let alone the training or indeed the time, to actually lead. Because if you've been promoted by virtue of your competence, you're better than other people at that job. And that's often. It's probably more than 50% of the time. Leaders, managers are promoted by virtue of their competence. Well, one of the first things you should understand as a leader is that you are there to, uh, resource the people in your charge to become as competent as you, thus eroding the very reason you became their leader. And that can't be a comfortable thing to start off with. So we have to have that conversation a little bit around who put you in charge and why, and do you recognize your responsibilities to the people in your charge and are you fulfilling that role? And it's a great place to start to say, what's the job description of a leader? So these are, uh, all indicative symptoms, I think you said earlier on, of, uh, why the relationship is a little bit imbalanced, perhaps even to start off with. And some of those relationship symptoms are, ah, as we've already said, the fact that the leaders and those in their charge simply don't understand each other, just don't get it, have completely separate issues, separate ideas, and yet it should be

Speaker B: the diametric opposite of that I often think about. This is from my mentor, my lovely mentor, uh, Professor Peter Hawkins, would always challenge me to stop locating the problem with the person and locate it in the relationship or the space between. Because I'm often working with people that are, um, saying they're not this or they're not that, and then what's the output that's needed? Where does this, what does success look like and where are they now? Where do they need to be? What's the gap that. That feels so much more like a useful place. And also the where is your gap between where you need to be? And it feels like it takes it away from the burden of blame and finger pointing and much healthier conversation.

Speaker A: To be having healthy conversations sounds like the best way to go. Uh, but it is that difference. I don't know if you remember any of your listeners remember watching a film, Men in Black. There's a scene in there whereby one of the men in black has to don some sunglasses and they get a little device out and flashes the person in front of them such that they forget everything that's happened up to that point. So it's a little a mind blanker. And I often in my talks and in my leadership sessions, with my tongue firmly in my cheek, I say, I think somebody comes along at the moment we're promoted and uses one of these devices on us, flashes us to make us forget what it was like to be a follower, uh, such that the leader of the follower, by definition, because of this little flashing thing that's happened that nobody knows about, makes sure that we can't remember what it was like and therefore don't do what we need to be doing on behalf of our followers. And yet, as recipients of our leadership and as arbiters, as judges of our leadership, they are the most important people in the organization for us. They are like our customers. We, we are in support of everything they do. We are their most significant resource, their most significant relationship. Usually, why aren't we stepping up? And yet leaders look down and say they need to step up. And yet, on the other hand, the very same leaders will say, but they're not ready. And that plays to the gap, uh, to which you've already spoken, which is, well, when will they be ready? What do they need to do in order to be ready? Because it's, if you level that at me, I'm not ready. Well, when will I be? What do I need to do? Such that I am. And to have some pseudo sage nod as to say, I'll let you know when you're ready. It's not going to.

Speaker B: Or have a code word for when you're ready.

Speaker A: You'll know.

Speaker B: You'll know because I tell you. Is there a time where leaders do stuff that they think is really brilliant for a relationship, but actually it's counterproductive?

Speaker A: Uh, yes, it's sort of what they don't do. As much as anything else, there's a couple of answers to this. First of all, any problem that a leader sees in their team is almost certainly there is a caveat, but there's almost certainly a product of their leadership or lack of it. So as soon as ever somebody, uh, a leader complains about their team, the very clear coaching response has to be okay, and what are you doing about that? So if somebody says they don't know what they're doing below me, that my team, my minions, they don't know what they're doing, so it's a competence issue or they'll do it some days and not other, so it's a consistency issue. Then there's like they keep asking me questions that they've already asked me before and they a confidence issue. Then they're backbiting and they're having a go at each other. This is a collaboration issue. Or they're sullen and miserable and they're not stepping up. That's a commitment issue. So you'll notice all those words rather.

Speaker B: Yeah, I was going to say this feels like something you're not ad libbing. That's a definite.

Speaker A: It's not my first rodeo. Yeah, uh, yeah, it's actually the six, but I think five significant words beginning with C that tend to cover pretty much all the problems leaders have with their charges and the lack of recognition that it is the leaders, it is their responsibility to do something about whatever their problem is. It starts in the mirror. I have a wonderful slide of somebody looking in the mirror, just sort of pointing and sort of a bit of a strange look on their face. And that is really what I want people to lead us to do. Go, uh, if you've got a problem with a team, go look in the mirror and say, what is it that I'm not doing? What is it that I am doing? What is it that I could be doing better? Because the worst answer you could possibly give is I will lead them better when they are better behaved.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Doesn't work chronologically like that. It works the other way around. You've got to get them to want to follow you by your behavior. Which is the true nature of leading by example.

Speaker B: Absolutely. So I like to have a focus on what leaders that are listening to this can do. So it might be how can they identify if there's issues if they're not sure, and then from that what can they do to increase effectiveness of relationships and how might they know it's worked? So those three steps, the fact that

Speaker A: you're asking whether as a leader, asking whether I could notice if there was a, uh, problem with my relationship is probably indicative of you haven't got a good enough relationship anyway because you don't know that it's good and you don't know that it's bad. You're not really sure. So there's a product of a potentially dysfunctional relationship there. And there are in my head and I don't want to be all prescriptive and clever about it, but there are seven things that a leader, uh, fails on. But the biggest one, by far the biggest one, which I think pretty much solves all the other six is the failure to have ring fenced, prioritized, one to one meetings with each and every member of their team individually, regularly and hopefully often. I would say once a week if you're not doing them yet, once a fortnight as the rhythm and I think that's optimum, no less than once a month. The challenge there is leaders will say, well I catch up with them on the shop floor, I see them m in the factory, I see them in the office. And you say good, so you should, so you're a visible leader. That's a good thing. That's not being fenced one to one prioritize time. Because the main reason why people leave an organization is because they don't feel valued. And that comes under lots of different guises. I don't feel I'm getting enough money, uh, my boss doesn't like me or doesn't understand me. All of this is a product of not feeling valued, appreciated, understood, accepted, valued. So to have a one to one regularly and often. The challenge with that of course is well, I haven't got time. You know, we have our appraisals, our appraisals once a year. Once a year. Once a year you get to speak to somebody with information that half of which is going to be more than six months old because it's about the whole year and only then do they get an opportunity to tell you how it is for that. No, that's, that's not good enough. Um, appraisals are great when run properly. It's not a ring fenced valuable relationship building one to one with people. And in fact I've just put a course together very specifically on um, how I think a one to one should be run. Because it's not about why are you behind on this project. It's not uh, the key performance indicators of a particular activity or indeed the sales pipeline. It can refer to that. Of course I'm not saying it's nothing to do with work, but the primary driver of that one to one starts with how's things with you? And I think that's one of the most important questions. So that that person can turn around and say well you know what, it's a bit rubbish at the moment or pretty good. So you can say why is that a bit rubbish? Tell me a little bit about how we can get it to be better. Or it's pretty good. How can we capitalize on that? What's gone so right. So there are some techniques within that one to one meeting that I would always ever advocate because if you haven't. If you're not doing them, I think that's your biggest mistake. That's when you know there's going to be a problem. I'll go into an organization and they'll say oh, we've got a problem with our team. Um, some of them are thinking this, some of them, I think they're thinking that and some of them do it. I say what are they saying in your one to ones? Then they get much looks askance and shuffling and glancing of feet. Uh, and then I get the um answer. We don't have one to ones. We haven't really got time for all of that. I say you've got time to call me in and pay me to try and solve the problem that you're not able to. Wow. One to ones.

Speaker B: You speak of my language, Andy.

Speaker A: Good, good. I knew we would. I knew we would.

Speaker B: We're very aligned on um that. I see the impact of that with every client because when I, when I do coaching work with clients I don't let them off. It's not my job. They're not outsourcing that to me. Part of that ah job is including their one to ones. How to make them better, how to make them more frequent and it works. We know, we know people do them Bieber but I do hear we don't have time is the, is the biggie. The other thing I notice is when people are senior their um manager is higher echelon in an organization, corporate, whatever and they are, you know, they've got a lot of responsibility, a lot of expectation and then the one to one seem to dry up completely.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because it's a bit like well I'm paying you to do your job and you're very competent. And the expectation these one to ones are potentially ah, for people a bit lower down the um hierarchy that need one to ones. Do you notice that too?

Speaker A: Yeah, I do. Gosh. This comes down to what do we expect our leaders to do and be for the people in their charge. And if as you say the higher up an organization you go, the upper echelons will say no, we're far too busy and important to have the one to ones with the people in our charge. And I say well in that case don't be in charge of them. Be in charge of the ambassadorial stuff you're doing. Be in charge of the busy and important stuff you're doing. Don't feign leadership here. Lead your projects, lead your ambassadorial activities, lead that stuff. Be visible for your shareholders, whatever you need to. But don't claim you're leading people. You're not. Oh, we're leading by example. No, you're doing stuff that other people have not got an opportunity to do, largely because you're not letting them. And where's the succession planning in that? For a start, I could accept somebody at that level saying, I employ people who are extraordinarily talented, they are, uh, well paid and they are very good at their job. I say, well, you've done the management thing. You've cracked management. You've got a resource in your charge that is performing consistently, effectively, confidently, and committed to, uh, doing the job. Well done as a manager. You have cracked it. Now go lead them. What's next for them? How do you encourage them further? What special projects could you start bringing them in on? Because ultimately you should only be doing what only you can do. So as you start to do only things that you could do, anything up there at the top, anything that can be brought down a little bit further so people can. And there's those words again. Step up is exactly what you should be now doing. You're now looking for the next leaders. And that's a tough call for people up there because they're the leaders. They're the ones that feel a little bit unassailable. So to actually start to look for the very people who are going to take over maybe a little bit concerning. And I understand that I would say still do one to ones, but I could comfortably accept them being less often, only once a month.

Speaker B: Yeah, I like that phrase. You should only be doing what only you can do.

Speaker A: It's the title of the third section of what I do as a leadership development program. Self awareness is the first one. I do a lot of psychometrics and understanding each other at, uh, a basic psychological level. Second phase is the leadership stuff, if I may say that word. I don't know.

Speaker B: You may say that word.

Speaker A: Same name as the book. Basically all the things that leaders tend to be doing wrong and how to put those right. The third element of four is that time management piece, except I call it Time Leadership. And, uh, it starts with. It's through the lens of only do what only you can do. And there will be reasons why that doesn't happen. Let's find out what they are and see if everybody can move on.

Speaker B: Mm, nice. I'm so, uh, curious now. You said that there are seven leadership. You'll have to tell us what they are. Need to know.

Speaker A: Well, the first one is, um, a lack of purpose. So I Would suggest that every time you meet, uh, with your team, certainly in a team environment, then you remind them why we're all here. Whenever I said this, they know why we're here. They've already got. I said, great. Then I go and ask them, and they go, oh, I didn't realize they thought that. If you don't or aren't clear setting out a, uh, raison d', etre, an aimed objective, and being really clear about that, pretty much every time it's the lens through which that team operates, then it could lead to, in fact, does lead to disparate priorities, cliques, uh, being formed, uh, people not understanding their part in whatever it is. Every single time you meet, remind them we are here too. We're going to be doing that because by doing X, Y and Z. Everybody clear on that? Great, let's have the meeting. So that would be the first fail, the second fail, and I think it's the most important fail, is the failure. And we've already discussed it. To meet at least once a month with your charges. The, uh, third one is reminding yourself that all of these are about communication. Is when somebody says to you from, from your team, uh, asks you a question, gives you a concern, even a moan, and you say, I'll get back to you, and you don't. It's one of the most destructive things a leader can do, is not close the loop. If you're going to say, I get back to you, give a date and a time. I'll get back to you by close the play Friday. I'll get back to you by Wednesday lunchtime on this. And if you are unable to, then go back to them well before that point and say, I still haven't been able to speak to so and so, which I need to in order to answer that question. Would you mind if we push that forward to Thursday? You see leaders, whenever I'm speaking to them, they say, yeah, but I just ask them to remind me if I forget. And I said, and you'd put up with that if they said that to you? You've asked them to do something, they've agreed, and then they forget to do it. Well, you didn't remind me. Are you happy with that? Talk about leading by example. So close that damn loop. Being open to your own challenge. How am I doing? Give me some feeders as to how I'm working with you. A failure to elicit your own bit of feedback. Failure to be giving specific feedback to your followers. And I mean specific rather than just, well, we're not doing very well. We need to do better. That's not good enough. Uh, do really well. Fabulous.

Speaker B: Or just like, you're great, you're great, you're great.

Speaker A: Like I say, it's a sugar rush, but it doesn't get any specificity. The worst form of feedback is no feedback. The best form of feedback is what we would refer to as positive and specific. Second best form of feedback would be constructive and specific. Hey, when you do this, I see that that's happening. Let me give you a couple of pointers because it's not working out how we want. Brilliant. That's a really good set of feedback. Number six of seven is say thank you. Uh, then I have to go far into that, although I'd quite like that to be part of your feedback. And the last one is, if you are a head honcho, failure to be visible and people not really understanding what you're there to do, and you disappear for days on end. They don't really know what you're doing. Well, come make sure that, uh, you are visible. Uh, and in general, you are communicating with the entirety of your group. So I think that was all seven,

Speaker B: hence the name of this podcast fits nicely. Visible Leader. Funny that, Funny that.

Speaker A: Almost like it's being played.

Speaker B: I know it's all lined up. I was doing a, uh, joint session, um, last week with a leader and their boss, and we had prepped for some feedback on how they could talk to their boss about something. They had a really good relationship with them anyway, but there was a thing they were doing that they wanted to share. And so we prepped how to say it. And it wasn't too spiky, but it was obviously something constructive. And I knew it was coming up because we were getting to that point in the thing, and this person wasn't actually nervous about doing it, so that was useful. Um, but I knew we were getting to this point. And, uh, before we got to that point, the manager said, right before we carry on, I want to know what can I do that would support you? What could I do that would just bring you even more? And I was like, how awesome. Mr. Leader. It was a Mr. Leader. And it just queued her up to be able to say, well, actually, there's this thing, and, you know, this is the impact of it, and how can we make that happen differently? And it was just awesome. I was like, well done, you for allowing that to be the easiest thing that needed to be said.

Speaker A: And that's straight away indicative of one of those top 200 leaders.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, one in 200. Inasmuch as the vulnerability is there. The last chapter of my book says the most important leadership question you can ask, and it's in that area. But in my research for the book, it was so clear that followers felt let down by their leaders. So to have the question in that area, which is, where is it not working? Where am I not working for you? Where am I letting you down? Potentially one of the most important things, because the likelihood is you are letting them down. And if you're not, they can turn around and say, no, no, I've got everything I need. You say, fantastic. Give us a shout if other. Uh. Or they can turn around with the appropriate relationship in place and say, well, there are a couple of things, you know, you got in the way of the client when X happened and you didn't resource me under these circumstances, I really could have done with a little bit more of your support there. And the answer to that, of course, is thank you. I need to know that. Yeah, yeah, we need to unpick some of that. But thank you for your honesty. Thank you for your feedback.

Speaker B: Yeah. Rather than you're. You're wrong, you're wrong. Yeah.

Speaker A: Let me explain. Let me tell you.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah. What. What I also love, which I was working with somebody else and they were saying, oh, people, um, don't make an effort with feedback. They're not. They can't be bothered. I'm like, m. In my experience, that hasn't been true. That generally, I think that if you get shoddy feedback. Shoddy meaning like thin, it's probably because the question you've asked hasn't been helpful for them.

Speaker A: Spot on. Spot on.

Speaker B: And the relationship may not be at a place where you can get full answer. So they'll say something generic because they don't know whether you're open to hearing that real truth. And maybe there's something they could tell you. So my thing, uh, I was working with them on was getting really clear what you think your blind spots are. So, you know, sometimes I think my enthusiasm can feel a bit overbearing. You know, whatever it is, it could be like, I know that sometimes I do this thing and I think maybe it gets interpreted like this, and that's not my intention, but I actually think that is how it's being heard. That is so much easier to be able to say. Yeah, sometimes I kind of feel like you, you know, take over a bit. You know, like, how awesome to be able to be given that freedom for somebody to say, I mean, it doesn't mean you always have to go. This is, I think it's not about falling on your sword, but it's just about saying, look, I think I've noticed this blind spot. Do you see it too? And um, for someone to be able to say, yeah, I do sometimes see that too. How lovely.

Speaker A: It's part of that psychometric thing that I do on the first of the four sections, which goes very much into that. And the idea that whatever that blind spot is is almost certainly based on a strength you already have. So uh, I devised this thing called Validate and um, Channel. And it's a bit like the old poop sandwich. You know, you'd say something nice, the poop, and then you'd say something nice. Little bit old fashioned these days and I think people are onto it. I much prefer the psychology behind the Validate and Channel. Great example would be somebody's making sloppy mistakes because they get to the end of their work, uh, really quickly. So rather than admonish them and say, you know, your quality of work is bad and if you carry on making these mistakes there's going to be a problem. You just need to slow down. Otherwise it's going to be a problem for you to turn around and say, what I really love about your work is the speed with which you carry it out. So straight away you've actually validated something they're doing naturally. Something that's already a, uh, strength. But you don't want a version of that. You want the best version of that. That. So you say, all I would ask is you use that quick mind of yours to double back a couple of times and to mop up those silly mistakes that you know, you make. Because you know what, if you did that, you'd still be finishing largely before everybody else and have an opportunity right here of becoming one of my best operatives. Go for it. So basically you're taking the trait that you know is based on the thing you don't want, bringing it up in the mix and saying, there's nothing wrong with that trait. There's nothing wrong with your enthusiasm, there's nothing wrong with your purpose, there's nothing wrong with your assistance. But sometimes, sometimes it can come across that assistance that you give comes across as patronizing or interfering. Sometimes that purpose that you are developing comes across as blinkered or dismissive to other people. It's based on something really good. And once someone is that, they go, this is not about not being who I am naturally. It's about marshaling that strength to. And when and for its appropriate uses.

Speaker B: Because every strength can tips into, you know, the shadow side of it. So it can all, it can always be there. And if you don't see, if you haven't seen it in action. I think the other thing, um, is I always invite reflection because there are blind spots that people can't see. So this is, it's not like everything is within that person. If you just ask them, they'll go, yeah, you know. But I always invite that reflection because I think a lot of people like, oh, yeah, I know, I know I'm making silly mistakes, you know, that kind of thing. And I feel like again, for a relationship of equals, it's being able to share how you experience them, but also inviting them to reflect on how they think they're showing up.

Speaker A: It's really important. I'm a good reminder for me because my enthusiasm can sometimes carry me a little bit onto the next thing without saying, so let's have a little think about that. Let's reflect, see what there is to do. Yeah, I do have something I refer to as, and perhaps your listeners would, would be interested as well, uh, something called a behavioral action plan. And that should be the living document of your one to ones. And largely it's three areas for improvement that may be a blind spot you want to be a little bit more aware of. It may be as simple as, I want to make sure my desk is clear, uh, by the time I go home. Or it could be I'm going to let more introverted people speak up in meetings and you say, great, as an aim, as a goal. But now I want you to give me three tangible, observable activities that I would notice if I were a fly on the wall that you are going to undertake in the next 72 hours or a week that would be in pursuance of that goal. So it becomes a very tangible and real thing. So say, yeah, I know I can be a little bit over enthusiastic at times. I'll calm that down. You go, great. How I want to see what you're going to do. I want to hear how it's going to work. So one of those might be in meetings. Rather than jumping in, I'll wait until somebody's finished. And to really challenge myself, I'll say, is there anything else now that is very observable and very clear that you are now giving somebody a lot more space than you used to. So I'd like to see a behavioral action plan. Three goals. Want to build on or capitalize on or be better at along with three elements, activities in pursuance of each of those three. So it becomes a nine point action plan. I think that's a very useful thing for people to go away, come back and say, I'm struggling here or I've cracked that one. I'm really pleased with myself. So have uh, something tangible and real. And that's part of the reflection for me.

Speaker B: Talking my language again, Andy. I know we're so aligned here. Fly on the wall is such a good analogy. To just be able to, it's got to be observable. When I end up working with people, I encourage them to have stakeholders so that they have got people that are going to be observers. So in that meeting it's not just you on your own doing it, they're going to be the fly. And then at the end of the meeting it's like, oh, you know, I said I was going to try to interrupt less and that meant that I was going to do X, Y and Z. How did I do? Any suggestions for how I could do that? Even better.

Speaker A: I'm no longer going to refer to those people that are going to keep an eye on you as the accountability buddies, which is what I normally do. Who's going to be your accountability buddy and um, who are you going to be accountability buddy for? Undercore these. Who's going to be your fly? Who's going to be your fly on the wall? And I carry things on. It's like, okay, if I'm a fly on the wall, what have I just seen happen here? And of course, uh, we should be holding the fly accountable for not holding us accountable. So if they're not saying anything, you say, come on, you said you would give me some feedback on this. I've known anything for a while. So uh, yeah, it becomes that sort of loop which ultimately leads to everybody being accountable to everybody all of the time.

Speaker B: Mhm. So we've talked about what you can do. We've gone around and talked generally about leadership or leaderships, which is leadership habits, which is lovely. And flies. What question have I not asked you, Andy, which you're itching to answer?

Speaker A: The question would probably be, be why would people leave me? Why would people not want to follow me? And well, I really, the whole answer to all of that is because you're not a good leader. Um, so I think that would be the question. Where am I going wrong as a leader? Where do people go wrong as a leader? Uh, I suppose how do leaders distinguish between what they think is the problem and what is actually Simply a symptom of a different or a deeper problem.

Speaker B: That's a good question I should have asked you. And the answer, it's to explore it.

Speaker A: It's absolutely to explore it. If something's happening, you say, well, there's the problem right there. Then to do a little bit of systems thinking around, well, how did that start? Um, and to engage your team in how that started, what drew them to that conclusion or that set of actions. And as the coach in me, as I'm sure the coach in you would suggest, is not a blame thing, it's not a pointing at, you're responsible for this problem. Why did you do it? As soon as ever you say the word why under those circumstances, it will promote a defense. So it would be what drew you to that decision rather than why did you do that? But to explore, to find out where that started. Because if the leak in the boat is somewhere and you don't know where, it does behove you to find out where that hole is and to go explore, uh, if you got wet feet over there, because I got wet feet over here. So the problem is we've got a hole in the boat. Right. The symptom is the symptom of a leak, symptom of a hole. Find a hole, find out where that hole is. So starting, I would suggest so.

Speaker B: It sounds like a great quality for a leader to have is to have

Speaker A: curiosity, Great word, curiosity. And curiosity about other people's behavior. We get such mixed messages sometimes when somebody's doing one thing, thinking another and saying a third thing. So it's almost a, uh, product of if they're caught out by saying one thing, they can say, oh, yes, but I was thinking this or I was actually doing that. And there's great escape routes involved. So, yes, that curiosity. But along with honesty, vulnerability and integrity around, I'm going to think, say, and, uh, do the same stuff. Because if you do that, there's no room for anything to hide. If you did that, then you're very slippery. It's like an episode of EastEnders, I'd imagine, because that's what happens. They say one thing, do another, think a third thing, and six months later somebody ends up in the canal, dead. You go, great. Well, let's keep it on EastEnders. Let's keep it as part of our entertainment rather than what's actually going on back at the workplace.

Speaker B: Yeah, because it. Cause it's chaos. Eastenders is chaos.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: And when you see that happening, you see chaos. And people do not thrive in chaos.

Speaker A: No, Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And it's largely around that lack of communication or misunderstanding. And it's a, uh, it's a playing to the symptom rather than the problem.

Speaker B: Beautiful, thank you. It was a very lovely last question that I should have thought of. Where can people find you, Andy?

Speaker A: My name is my website andyedwards the speaker. So andyedwards the speaker.com gets you into largely what I talk about. But uh, you can also buy my book from there. But also if you go onto a learning platform, Udemy, which is U D e m y udemy.com. i'm sticking my name in the search bar. You'll get up all of my online courses and you get some, some unlocked videos so you can go get a sense of what I talk about. And Udemy are usually very good. They're a little bit pilot high instead of cheap stuff. So you can normally get some really good causes, if not for me than others, um, for, you know, 10, 11 quid. And I think they're really valuable to have. So that's where I hang out. I also hang out on LinkedIn under uh, one, unsurprisingly, Andy Edwards, the Speaker. If you look me up there and link with, with me there, I promise I will respond.

Speaker B: I will put all of that in the show notes. And you have written books?

Speaker A: I have. Well, I've written two now. First one was about behavioral psychology. Why can't people be more like me? And I hear leaders say this a lot. If I could all be managers, I wish I had a team of me's, a load of me clone myself, uh, it would be brilliant. And uh, as you actually go through the book, you realize why it's not such a good idea to have everybody thinking and feeling the same thing. So it's about those wonderful differences based on that Jungian psychology that we talked about earlier on. And of course uh, the book with a naughty title, Leadership, which is basically everything. It was a game of three halves. Everything a leader does wrong and how to put it right. But largely this book is leadership from the perspective of a frank and fearless friend follower. And I recommend it. The whole of my leadership work, when I go into an organization, nothing is outside that book. Everything I talk about is in that book. And it's only about 100 pages, so quite succinct. You can buy them on my website. You could actually go onto Amazon, but I only get 50p then. But, uh, come and buy them from our website and I'll sign it.

Speaker B: Well, I'll put the link to the website so you can get a little bit more than that. It was an absolute pleasure chatting with you. I feel like we are twins on a lot of this and I think my listeners will benefit greatly from putting some of what we talked about into practice.

Speaker A: Here's hoping. Thank you.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the Visible Leader podcast. To stay up to date with the latest episode, hit the subscribe button and I'd love to hear what you think think. So please leave me a review. If you have any questions or comments, reach out to me. Corinne Hines on LinkedIn.