Jay Harrington - Helping Lawyers Become Thought Leaders

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Visible Expert Podcast. Hi, and I'm Kelly Waffle. and you are listening to the Visible Expert podcast. My guest today is Jay Harrington.

Jay is president of Harrington Communications, a thought leadership marketing agency that helps lawyers and law firms define and promote their brands, project their expertise, and consequently develop more business. He is also a business coach, marketing consultant, author, and yes, lawyer. Jay, welcome to the Visible Expert podcast. Kelly, it's great to be here.

Thank you for having me on. You know, Jay, here at Hinge, we define recognized influencers who share their expertise and experience in the B2B and professional services spaces as visible experts. This podcast is focused on sharing the stories of our guests and illuminating the challenges and rewards to building a personal brand. Jay, you are also the co-founder of the Thought Leader Collaborative, which in a sense helps lawyers find and elevate their visible expertise.

Can you spend a few minutes talking about the collaborative, which I believe you refer to as the lab. Yeah, thanks, Kelly. Yeah, the lab, as we call it, is going to be launching. It hasn't actually launched yet.

It's on August 1st, but I can certainly tell you what's to come. So it's going to be a community for lawyers and other professionals as well who are looking to establish themselves as thought leaders, primarily through the use of the LinkedIn platform. And so it will be a community where we'll be doing live training. We'll have a lot of resources available for people, and it'll be an opportunity for lawyers to learn how to use, turn their expertise into thought leadership, and as a result of becoming a thought leader, develop new business.

So yeah, it's very community-oriented. We're looking forward to the opportunity to have a lively discussion on a monthly basis about some of these issues that really matter in terms of business development these days. It sounds like you're going to have your hands full there, at least in the beginning. Yeah, no doubt.

So I know it's an issue that I think is important for many reasons, for many of the reasons you stated. And I love how Hinge frames this as visible expertise, because that's what it's really all about. And we think that LinkedIn is probably the most ripe platform for thought leadership right now. And so the principles we'll be talking about will apply across domains, no matter what form of thought leadership you're doing.

But the Point being, as you said, to make that expertise visible for people such that people start seeing you and understanding what solutions you provide to an audience and therefore building trust and awareness, which leads to new business. That's exactly right. So, you know, here at the Hinge Research Institute, we do an annual research study across B2B and professional services around high growth. And one of the markets we really dive deep into is legal and law firms.

And we're seeing that more and more of them are starting to make the digital transformation, starting to use digital platforms. And when they do, they're dipping their toe primarily into trying to leverage LinkedIn. But a lot of what we got as feedback was that they still have a long ways to go with that. So I think what you're doing fits nicely with the research that we're seeing, and it's really just going to benefit the legal community overall.

Yeah. Well, and there's two things I think that are worth maybe discussing, which would be, you know, I think that in many cases, lawyers look, and professionals across different industries and professional services are looking at LinkedIn as a place to maybe promote content, where we believe that it's the starting point for all of your content initiatives. I oftentimes tell people to maybe have a mindset shift where don't think of LinkedIn as a place to promote content from your blog, but rather start treating LinkedIn as your blog.

So meaning creating more content that lives natively on LinkedIn, because there's such a robust audience there for that. I mean, we all know from creating content that we post, say, on our firm's website, you'll get some views on that content. But the ability to create directly on LinkedIn through text-only posts on the platform or videos or other forms of content gives you the opportunity to reach a significantly larger audience. And I think one of the things that's oftentimes not considered is that, at least in my own experience, and this is the way I use LinkedIn, which is as a testing ground for longer form content.

So basically, if you're going to be investing five hours of time writing a 1200 word article, I'd much rather have a sense of whether that idea, that core idea of what I'm going to be writing about actually resonates with my audience. And there's no better way to do that than to spend 15 minutes drafting a 150 word post on LinkedIn and seeing what the audience reaction is, right? If you've curated a network of people who are interested in the types of topics you address, well, you should have a sense based on their reaction to that shorter post as to whether it's worth the investment of time to build out longer form content on that idea.

So I think that's important. We're thinking about sort of tactically speaking, how to use LinkedIn to become a thought leader. It's not just about work you're doing on LinkedIn. That work you're doing on LinkedIn informs everything else you're doing as well.

And then I also, the second point being another overlooked advantage of LinkedIn, I think, is that when I talk to lawyers, they might have a hesitancy to be engaging on what they perceive as social media, which has a certain connotation to it, obviously. And they think, well, if I really want to be a thought leader, I need to be out doing public speaking, getting guest posting opportunities and prestigious publications, being cited as an expert source for reporters, all of those types of things that they consider more prestigious or more valuable.

But in my experience, those opportunities arise as a result of the work you do to make yourself visible on LinkedIn, because the gatekeepers to those opportunities, the reporters, the event organizers, the publishers and editors, all of these folks or podcast hosts, they're on LinkedIn looking for thought leaders. And instead of having to pitch for those opportunities and compete for them, if you're very visible on LinkedIn with the thought leadership, oftentimes those folks, those gatekeepers will reach out to you and invite you on their platforms to speak to their audience.

So just a few ways to think about LinkedIn that maybe I find are not often considered. No, I think those are really good points that you bring up. And beyond that, obviously, visibility is very important. But you touched on this earlier, credibility and trust, especially with what we've gone through recently.

Turn on the evening news for five minutes and you just see there isn't a lot of trust out there. And that continues into the business world as well. So using a platform like LinkedIn enables you to build credibility and build trust in ways that you may not normally use in your regular channels. Right.

Yeah, it's a much more interactive, not quite synchronous, but it's closer to synchronous communication in terms of content creation than anywhere else you can do it. Meaning when you're creating content on LinkedIn, you have the opportunity to interact with your audience in a way that you can't elsewhere. There's no more comment sections on law firm blogs. There's no way to interact with your audience.

Whereas on LinkedIn, you can have that personal interaction with people in a way that you can't elsewhere. And yeah, that's right. I think that at the core of thought leadership in any sophisticated professional service arena is the fact that it is a way to, again, gain awareness and then build trust over time. It helps to combat the unpredictable nature of business opportunities in these fields, right?

Where there are long interim periods of time between engagements and you need to stay visible and in the inbox and in the feeds of those who you hope to serve. And that's where, you know, sort of maybe the more bite-sized content that you're creating on LinkedIn can help solve that problem and keep you more visible such that people are thinking of you when those, you know, unpredictable opportunities ultimately arise. You left a large bankruptcy practice to start Harrington Communications with your wife.

Looking back at your journey as you became a visible expert, what were some of the challenges you faced along the way? Yeah, well, I mean, the first big one was I was trying to run two companies at the same time. I was at two large law firms. I started my career at Skadden Arps and then I was at Foley and Lardner.

I left to start this business. And then about two years later in the spring of 2009, and everyone think back to that period, that was in the heat of the financial crisis still. And I was in Detroit where it was also the automotive crisis heating up. So I figured if I was ever going to practice corporate restructuring law again, it was going to be that moment in time.

So I started a small firm. I think we opened our doors three days after Chrysler filed for bankruptcy and about 20 some days before GM did. And it was a crazy period. I did that for about four years, also running my marketing agency with my wife.

And that became too much, ultimately, sort of the period of time in which the bankruptcy work was really busy, was stretched thin. So I mean, one of the challenges, I guess, though, was rebranding myself. So I had always been a corporate bankruptcy lawyer, and I needed to now make the transition to being perceived in my My ambition and goal was to be perceived as an expert in helping lawyers and law firms do business more effectively. So that was a process of rebranding that took some time to kind of shift my focus and have people start thinking of me differently And I definitely use thought leadership primarily writing as the means to do that I mean, just keep hammering and creating lots of content, sharing my ideas.

And that was probably the biggest transition. Fortunately, my marketplace, we primarily serve lawyers and law firms, as I mentioned, they were receptive to that. You know, there's a certain number of effective clients that I speak to think, well, why would I want another lawyer helping me to do my marketing business development? You get that, but that's maybe 10 or 15% of the market, but I'll take the 85 to 90% that see that as an asset.

But the only way that shift could happen was as a result of doing things like writing books and writing lots of content. I now have a podcast, very active on LinkedIn. All of those things help me make that transition effectively. That's great.

So following up from that, you've been doing this type of legal thought leadership training and guidance for about 15 years now. What have been some of the rewards you've enjoyed during the journey? Well, I think it, for me, professionally speaking and working with my clients, I think the biggest thing that has been rewarding is having clients see and shift their mindsets around what possible in terms of marketing and business development. Shifting from a mindset of almost every lawyer I know hates the idea of traditional sales, right?

The notion of kind of pitching for work and chasing work, that kind of thing. And discovering one's ability to play the long game with marketing and building a practice where it's all about being generous and abundant with your ideas such that people start to see you as an expert, develop trust that you have the ability based on the ideas you share to serve them has been really rewarding. And as a result of that, just the unbelievable relationships that have been built over time.

I mean, one of the biggest shifts we made in our business, we started it and we were in physical office space in Metro Detroit. And as a result of that, our client base was very, well, we served. I mean, we had clients certainly outside of Michigan that we were serving at that point in time. But it was concentrated in that geographic radius that we were in.

I think it was 2013 or 14. we shifted our business model to virtual and we moved our family up to northern Michigan to a small town, 250 miles from our closest client. So that really forced us to think differently about things. And as a result, it's been a good opportunity for us to expand both nationally and internationally with our business, serving clients around the world now, which is really rewarding because just the ability to foster those relationships with people who value what you do, that's been certainly probably the most rewarding aspect of our practice over the last 15 years.

Well, I can definitely see that. Yeah. As I did some research into your background, there are a lot of different layers to you. So I chuckled a few times as I was doing some of the research.

Anyway, Jay, 2020 was unprecedented, unpredictable, and uncertain for many lawyers and law firms, while some thrived, most struggled to survive. When you spoke to lawyers during that time, what were some of the actions that you saw or heard about that they were not doing that they probably should have been doing? For example, I know that your firm has a singular philosophy around define and dominate niche markets. Yeah, exactly.

I think the ability to, the sort of generalist approach that many firms have stuck with, right? Where from a positioning standpoint, they are trying to be all things to all people. And that became a weakness. That always becomes a weakness when the economy contracts and there's more supply than demand.

And as a result of that, you become less relevant and more commoditized as a result. So I think the firms that were really well positioned and had some of it was fortuitous, right? I mean, no one could see that downturn coming, but that is oftentimes the case, right? With most downturns, no one saw the financial crisis coming, or many people didn't at least.

And there's a serendipitous component to it where, you know, if you're really well positioned for the practices that actually matter during that downturn, one of the interesting things was, you know, I think a lot of, and I was, of course, paying attention to this because it was my former practice area of focus, but there was a lot of predictions about the cascading bankruptcies that people were expecting. And so people were immediately trying to bulk up in that area. But I mean, outside of there were some large retail bankruptcies and in the energy sector, but there was no widespread restructuring work.

And it's still slow to this day. And that's a result of just there being so much capital in the marketplace, I think. But those firms that had strength in areas like employment law or litigation really did well. And then even transactional work has floated over, say, the last six months because of all the capital in the marketplace.

So I think that was big. always thinking about how do I really think about not just our firm as kind of a do all things to all people approach, but really thinking about what are the real drivers of growth right now, and how do we always maintain strength in those areas. The other thing that people struggled with was being slow to digital adoption, meaning from the ability to work remotely to the ability to market in a digital environment. That was a real Achilles heel for many firms that did struggle.

And then the other thing I think that people are experiencing now is that maybe in many instances, firms cut too deeply in reaction to the events. And, you know, it's hard to fault anyone for taking those precautions. But, you know, I know that many firms are really struggling now to get staff back up to meet the onslaught of work that they're experiencing. So good problem to have in a sense, but that cutting too deeply and maybe, you know, especially in some of the more administrative support roles within firms is a big challenge for a lot of firms right now to overcome in addition to finding good lawyers.

Yeah. And again, looking back at our research, it really coincides with a lot of the points you just made, especially around being caught kind of flat-footed with the digital transformation. So a lot of firms in previous years had grown significantly from things like referrals and from doing prestigious speaking events and things like that. And when a lot of those were sidelined and, you know, our research is showing that referrals are going down, a lot of these lawyers didn't have a way to really generate the kind of book and business that they wanted to do.

And again, as we know, most lawyers are not marketers. They're not business development people. And a lot of times they don't necessarily hire the right people to actually do that as well. So those were all problems, even when you're dealing with well-intentioned law firms to actually get the objective across the finish line.

Yeah. And it's unfortunate because you still see it to this day. I think now you'll see a certain segment of the marketplace simply go back to the old ways of doing things, and it still won't make the transformation. I think there's more focus on it now, but it'll be interesting to see if that momentum sustains.

And I think one of the interesting things I did observe of people who did thrive in 2020 who did adopt digital transformation and innovation in that space, and this is on a more individualized basis as it relates to individual lawyers, is how quickly that transformation could take place. I have a friend who, as of, I think it was maybe August 1st of 2020, the typical lawyer has a LinkedIn profile, has never really posted any content on LinkedIn, just maybe checks in once in a while to see if they have new connection requests or a message or something like that.

And she committed herself to creating content on LinkedIn. And she actually, I think it started as a 30-day challenge for herself where she was going to post every day. Anyways, long story short, fast forward nine months later, she's gone from maybe 1,500 followers to over 16,000. She's written a book in the interim period based on her LinkedIn posts, and she's built an incredibly thriving practice.

And that all happened within that nine-month period. So I would just say that to the extent that anyone's thinking, well, you know, still thinking, well, maybe it's not worth it or I don't need to do it or I just don't get it. You know, that that transformation can take place quicker than you think. And something to consider and not just assume that we're going to go back fully back to the old way of doing things.

I like the idea of like the 30 day challenge, you know, set a goal there that you can meet and then build upon that. That's great. In your book, Jay, The Productivity Pivot, you challenge lawyers to look at time differently. You know, obviously most believe that they should be selling all of their time to clients to help achieve their objectives.

You believe it is imperative that lawyers take an hour a day to focus on themselves or business development activities to achieve their own objectives. Can you elaborate on that? Sure, absolutely. So that notion of selling yourself one hour of your time every day, that comes from a lawyer who many people don't know is a lawyer, but Charlie Munger, who is Warren Buffett's business partner in Berkshire Hathaway.

And when he was just starting out in the practice of law, he found himself in that position that most lawyers do, which is spending almost all of your time billing hours to clients. And Munger kind of took a different look or twist on how he wanted to approach his career And he decided that he was going to as he put it start viewing himself as his own most important client And as a result of that selling himself one hour of his time every day And he used that time to work on professional business development, ultimately to work on some of the real estate deals that ultimately led him to Warren Buffett and their partnership.

But I think it's a really powerful mindset shift that lawyers need to think about. You can get caught up in the day-to-day of billing hours and think that that's your highest value you can provide and lose sight of what your long-term vision is for your career. I believe, and I think research backs this up, which is that autonomy, the feeling that you're in control of your circumstances, that you have a modicum at least of control over your future and your career and your life is the most important predictor of happiness and satisfaction in one's career.

And I think in the practice of law and other professional services, having a book of business of your own, having your own clients where, you know, I think every service provider is kind of beholden to their clients. But if you don't have clients of your own, you're also beholden to the colleagues in your firm who have clients. So you lack that autonomy. And I think the only way to get that is to think long term.

You know, short term thinking would suggest that you should just bill as many hours as possible to get the biggest bonus possible at the end of the year. But you're never going to get to the point where you have that autonomy and independence and ultimately the opportunity for more freedom and wealth through building a book of business of your own. And the way to accomplish that is to have that consistent, steady, everyday approach to marketing and business development that will ultimately start compounding.

you'll create a flywheel effect for yourself. And it's not going to happen overnight, but prioritizing your future, your needs and your priorities, and not just focusing on other people's priorities is I think the way to get there. I encourage my clients when coaching them to say, look, sell yourself your most valuable hour of your day. For many people, that's the first hour of the day before all the inputs of email and phone calls and craziness starts first thing in the morning and just continue to work towards positioning yourself as a thought leader, developing relationships with clients, and ultimately developing new business.

Because if you don't prioritize it and you don't block that time on your calendar, in my experience, you'll never do it. So going a little bit further with priorities, also in your book, you talk about the need for lawyers to leverage their time better. While many lawyers probably can do most of the items on their to-do list better and faster than anyone else, you do not believe that this is the best way to proceed. Why is that?

Yeah, so I think for a few reasons, but this gets back, many people are familiar with, there's a two-by-two matrix, the Eisenhower matrix, right? Where quadrant two of the Eisenhower matrix is basically where tasks that are not urgent, but important fall, right? And I think that's how you would define things like business development and marketing. They're important, but they're not urgent.

And the urgent client matters you're dealing with oftentimes get in the way. But there are also tasks that are not necessarily important, but they're urgent. They need to get done. So these are areas where you want to start delegating responsibilities.

The things you do that you don't need to be doing and that someone else perhaps could do better for you. And identifying those areas where you can either delegate or eliminate are ways in which you can buy yourself more time to focus on what really matters, in this case, building a book of business for yourself. So I think a focus on that, kind of a parallel focus on how do I remove as much from my plate as possible and start to see myself as the CEO of my own practice, essentially working on my business and not always in my business, is critically important.

So I think there's oftentimes an impediment to delegation, which is that we cited in the book, Kelly, which was, you know, if I can either do it better myself, or it'll just take it'll take me more time to turn this over to someone else. But you don't consider the fact that you know, what might take you 10 minutes to complete, but perhaps might take five hours to document and turn over to someone else, you know, that 10 minutes a day that you could take off your plate in a few months that will that will start paying dividends over the rest of your career, if you can shift that work to someone else, and you never have to think about it again.

So it's just the notion of how do I operate at my highest value? And part of that is removing the things that need to get done, but not necessarily by you from your plate and onto someone else's. I just thought that was great insight. It really hit home with me.

So it doesn't just apply to lawyers. We all struggle with it. There's no doubt. I saw on your website that you also offer training workshops.

And one that I thought was kind of interesting was a workshop around associate training. Do you find that associate training is often overlooked by many firms? And what do you see are some of the benefits to this type of training? Yeah, I think that generally speaking, training is lacking.

It's starting to change. There's definitely more of an investment in training than probably there ever was. This all starts back in law school, which is very theoretical. Socratic method teaches you how to think like a lawyer, but doesn't teach you at all how to be a lawyer.

So many, you know, young or new lawyers come out of law school totally unprepared for what they're getting themselves into, what the practical day to day experience of the practice of law is like. That was certainly my experience. I started at Skadden in September 2001. Circumstances were such that, you know, I was six days after 9-11 was my first day at the firm.

I was supposed to be an M&A lawyer. And the, you know, the terrorist attacks happened and they basically shifted most of the new associates into the corporate restructuring group just because the needs of the firm required it and the needs of the firm's clients. I had never taken a bankruptcy class. I had never done a bankruptcy assignment.

I'd never even opened the bankruptcy code. So in that sense, it was totally unpredictable. And I felt totally unprepared for what I got myself into, which was a very busy, very hectic schedule. It was a true trial by fire learning experience.

And I think that training today needs to better equip associates for what's to come in two areas. I wrote a book called The Essential Associate, and I divided it into two sections. The first one being the practice of law, and the second one being the business of law. So how do you become an effective lawyer through the practice of law?

And then how do you learn some of the stuff that they don't teach in law school, the business of law? And so one of the weaknesses, I think, historically with most associate training was that it was more akin to, you know, getting a bunch of associates in a room, having someone come up and lecture. It was more of a presentation, right? Which I think there's a big difference between a presentation and a training.

A training is something where there's more hands-on practical learning, experiential learning. There's actually work that people are doing to put some of the principles that are being taught into practice. And that's where more training has to shift towards. And also a recognition that training can't be a one size fits all approach.

We label lawyers in their first through eight, nine, even 10 years of experience as associates. But the gap in skills, knowledge, and experience between a first year lawyer and an eighth year lawyer is massive. One's on the doorstep to partnership. One is trying to figure out where to go in their office a little bit, wandering the I mean, it's so training needs to be better contextualized and shaped for where different lawyers are at in terms of experience level.

So a lot of the training work I do for associates is in that, you know, kind of first or second year of experience level. And it's a totally different curriculum and set of teachings and practical experiential learning for that audience relative to the work I would do with, say, seventh or eighth year associates who are, you know, at that point, it's like you need to be exhibiting the skills and abilities of a partner in the firm. Because before you're going to make partner, other partners in the firm need to see you as one of themselves.

So it's just a different component. So it needs to be better contextualized. It needs to be better directed to different levels of experience. And it definitely needs to be more experiential and practical as opposed to just a presentation given by someone expounding knowledge as opposed to getting their hands dirty and actually learning the skills that are being taught.

No, I just thought it was great. It really caught my attention because that's how I envisioned it, is that you would come about it from a real practical point of view and really fill in a lot of the gaps. Because I can't imagine going out to your first law firm, your first couple of years, there's got to be like deer in the headlights. It is.

Yeah, it is for many people. You know, we touched on some of this earlier, Jay, but many lawyers don't share their ideas on social media in blogs or articles or even some speaking events because that they feel like they're giving away advice for free or that they're giving access to their secret sauce. What do you think about this and the impact that it has on their ability to create good content and thought leadership? Yeah, a few things.

The first would be, I think that, you know, understanding that if you are not sharing your ideas which in most cases you know the old saying there are no new ideas right Someone else has a similar skill set and knowledge base as you If you not sharing your ideas your competitors are. There's certainly some of them are. So you're going to be at a disadvantage from a starting point by kind of having that scarcity mindset about your ideas. And the second point being, I think in almost all cases, clients, at least the type of clients that you would be looking for if you're positioning yourself as an expert and a thought leader, they're not looking to do it themselves, right?

What they're looking for is confidence in someone's ability to do the work for them. And by you sharing your ideas and being generous and helpful to them, bringing light to things that they might not have thought about or potential solutions to a challenge they're facing, you're positioning yourself very well for the engagement to actually help execute the solution, Right. Again, you're bringing light to it through your content and you're positioning yourself to actually serve in that role of the trusted advisor who's going to help them execute that solution moving forward.

So I think those are two big things that lawyers or other professionals need to think about when if they're feeling like they don't they want to get they don't want to give away too much through the content. And then the other thing would be if all you're doing through your content is just merely sharing information, then your content is not going to have any impact. It's certainly not going to have the impact that you intended. That's not thought leadership.

What thought leadership is, is addressing the implications of information, right? If you're just merely talking about what the statute says or what the Supreme Court ruling was, then you're not going to get the attention nor build the trust that you're seeking. But if you're talking about how to make that information actionable for your clients, well, then people are going to start taking notice and start to look out for more of your content and ultimately, hopefully, hire you to help them with the solution that you need.

Totally agree. To me, you know, value's a great key differentiator, especially in these competitive marketplaces. I saw a piece you wrote entitled 10 Things Lawyers Should Stop Doing. Number nine really intrigued me on your list, and that was neglecting your health and well-being.

I also saw cited research in another article you wrote that depression was acknowledged by 28% of the surveyed lawyers. Can you speak to the mindset that the only way to build a successful legal practice is to give everything? Yeah, this is a major issue. And I'm so grateful that it's definitely getting more attention these days than it used to.

I mean, back when I started practicing, you know, there was no discussion about mental health issues in the practice of law, despite it being rampant back then, too. I mean, those statistics about depression, alcoholism, you know, even suicide, it happens. And it's because the pressures of the practice of law are somewhat unique. I mean, I think back to my own experience practicing, I had a really hard time letting things go.

That was one of the reasons I shifted away from the practice of law. You know, I want to think that I was a good lawyer, but I had a really hard time. And I think part of what made me a good lawyer was always thinking about the issues related to my clients and having a really hard time leaving that at the office. So mental health concerns are real and need to be talked more about.

And I believe that conversation is happening. But I know from my own experience, and certainly the clients I work with, that trying to create those boundaries and trying to implement some things in one's life, such as exercise or some sort of mindfulness exercises, All of these things are essential and you don't need to devote everything to the practice of law. You're going to work hard. There's no doubt about it.

It's a challenging profession. But again, thinking long term about what you're doing is the key here. I think having a vision as to what you want your career to be like over the long term, because there is so much burnout in the profession. So many people are leaving early because they're just grinding so hard through maybe their early to mid-level associate years and just washing out of the profession.

You need to have some of those, like I said, boundaries where you might not be the highest billing attorney in your firm. You may not be able to get the highest bonus at the end of the year as a result. But the ability to have longevity, which is fostered through good self-care and getting the support you need and creating those boundaries for yourself is the key to, you know, if you want to practice for 30 or 35 years and actually enjoy your life in the process, you need to do that.

And like I said, I'm grateful that it seems like more attention is being paid to these issues in the profession. And there's not as much stigma associated with people who are suffering mental health issues. And I see a lot of senior lawyers who have a lot of experience talking about these issues and what they went through in order to, I think, make younger lawyers more comfortable in seeking the help they might need. So I think that's a really positive development.

Kind of following up on that, I think I wouldn't be doing you justice if I didn't touch on your book, The Outlaw Writer. Can you talk a little bit about that and why you wrote that book? Yeah. So this was a book that, you know, I've written four books now and each one has started with, you know, identifying what are some of the most commonly asked questions I receive.

And at some point when you get asked the same question over and over and it's worthy of a lengthier discussion, to me, that's a signal to maybe write a book about it. So The Outlaw Writer was my most recent one. And this one's a little different. All of my books have been for lawyers, but this one was for lawyers who might be looking for something different, maybe a transition out of the practice of law or at least dipping their toe into the water of creating what people call a side hustle where generating a side business for themselves.

And so The Outlaw Writer is about how to start a freelance writing career for yourself. And that's been a big part of what I've done since I left the practice of law, which is writing for clients, thought leadership content, helping other people with books, that kind of thing. And so many lawyers go to law school because they have a love of writing and they see it as an opportunity to do a lot of writing in one's career. And maybe they really aspired to be actually a professional writer, an author, a published author or some other form of writing, but they didn't see it as maybe a realistic career option.

And so what I wanted to do with this book was to kind of share my experience and share a path forward for people that want to shift from one career into a freelance writing career and kind of use my experience as an opportunity to maybe teach them how to do that. Yeah, I think it's great. I just, like I said, the more I'm peeling back the layers on you, the more fascinating I'm finding it. So I know that you believe that you should make yourself your own best clients, making and committing time to pursue your priorities.

What are your priorities when you're not working at Harrington? No, that's a great question. Well, certainly my family, like as I mentioned earlier, we moved from the metro Detroit area to a smallish town in northern Michigan called Traverse City about six years ago when we took our business virtual. And that was a very intentional decision where we wanted to give our kids, we had three very young children at the time, a different lifestyle that they could grow up in.

I was really focused on nature and spending time outdoors and doing some of the things that we loved but weren't able to do frequently enough, such as downhill skiing and hiking and spending time on the Great Lakes. And so that was a big focus then that made us make that move. And it continues to be now. So spending a lot of time, my daughters are a little bit older now.

I have an 11-year-old and twin girls who are eight. And yeah, so I coach their sports teams and I spend a lot of time doing that. So really, my kids are a big area of focus for me. My wife is, as I mentioned, a partner in my business.

And she's also an artist. She's a painter. So helping support her and her efforts as well. big area of focus.

But for me, you know, in terms of if I had, you know, a two hour block of time that I could just go do what I wanted to do, it would be something outdoors. As I mentioned, I love skiing. I spend as much time on the water as possible in the summer. There's a lot of outdoor activities that I enjoy.

And that's a big priority for me in terms of how I'm trying to live my life. Well, I'm sure a lot of our listeners can relate to that as well. So Jay, I really enjoyed this conversation today. I just have one other question.

Where can listeners go if they want to learn more about your training, your books, your blogs, et cetera? Well, certainly I would encourage people if they want to kind of see a little bit of everything I'm doing, connect with me on LinkedIn. That's where I kind of share everything. I use that as my hub.

But my agency website is hcommunications.biz. Again, that's Harrington Communications is the name of the agency. And maybe they might want to check out my podcast called The Thought Leadership Project, which is available wherever you find podcasts.

And you can find all episodes at thethoughtleadershipproject.com. All right, Jay. This concludes our podcast interview for today.

Thank you so much for your time and your insights. I've really enjoyed this. Yeah, Kelly, it was a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much.