“High Altitude Leadership” with Don Schmincke | Ep. 202

Speaker A: We found the pattern was that, you know, climbers who are realizing they're facing death and companies that realize they're facing death start grabbing their tools. And here's the problem, their salvation doesn't come from the tools. And a lot of companies we found in our research that, um, they're not using their tools, the tools are using them. And that's different, you know. So, uh, tools are great. By the way, I love tools. I'm m an MIT geek, so obviously I really enjoy tools. But the difference is if the tool starts using you instead of you using it, that's going to be a problem.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Transformative Leader podcast where we talk about what's holding you back from being and showing up as the transformative leader that you already are. This is Amir Gannad, your host and the author of the Transformative Leader. My mission is to put people in touch with their greatness so they fulfill their unique purpose in the world. On this podcast, we do that by giving you an abundance of actionable insight that you can put to good use immediately in your personal and professional life. I'm committed that every episode will leave you compelled to boldly declare, courageously pursue, and abundantly achieve the extraordinary.

Speaker C: My guest in this episode is Don Schmincke. Don is the author of best selling books the Code of the Executive and High Altitude Leadership. He has been featured by CNN, the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, MSNBC and more than 60 industry publications annually. We are going to talk about various aspects of leadership, what it takes to develop leadership, what it takes to go beyond just using tools and making sure that the tools that you're using are not using you. Don also shares great insight from his book High Altitude Leadership, which he co authored with Emmy nominated climber Chris Warner. I'm confident that you are going to find the insights that Don shares with us in this episode, uh, helpful and relevant. So without further ado, let's get into it.

Speaker D: Well, Don, thank you so much for being on the show. It is wonderful to have you here.

Speaker A: Thank you for having me.

Speaker D: You know, I was looking, uh, through your background and wow, what a fascinating career, uh, you've had, uh, ah, and you've basically sort of reinvented yourself and you've had a lot of success in a lot of different areas. I wonder. And of course I want to really pick your brain, uh, on uh, leadership and uh, culture and that sort of thing. But I would love to hear, um, more just from yourself, your background. How did you come to this point in your career?

Speaker E: Oh, it was a serious uh, accident. I never really expected I would be doing this. Um, I don't remember. When I was in mit, my studies were mainly focused in first AI and

Speaker A: computing and then I got into uh, planetary physics. And um, while I was doing that I automated the Harvard MIT Biomedical Laboratory. And that's where I first got published. But I was doing all kind of engineering work like nuclear guidance system. I had a part time job working on that at one of the labs there. And it ended up um, to me it made sense. All these things are coming together because you know, I have adhd. So for me it's easy. Various sources of science. And um, I got fascinated with biological studies because at the Harvard MIT Biomedical Lab we were doing a lot of uh, testing on how to sense um, signals in the body, et cetera. So I ended up at Hopkins and I, while I was doing medical research at Pfizer and it was at Hopkins that I began to ah, study human grouping behaviors and be very fascinated in that. And what was interesting about that was I started running into a lot of executive um, people in the executive education program and they started uh, complaining about the failure rates of a lot of these popular theories. And so it just went from there. Um, there was some research published at Stanford on the life cycle. Pascal put some life cycle things together on these theories that come up and then they die off. They come up and they die off. So I was curious as to what was happening and that's really, that got me started. And I put together a CEO group here in the Baltimore D.C. area and got connected with a large network of CEO groups. So again it was a good laboratory for me to understand uh, what is happening or not happening around management and leadership theory. But we took the failure rates and we began realizing that a lot of these were chronic. And I stumbled into this through Oxford University because they had this ancient manuscript that was used to train leaders back 700 years ago and sat in the samurai companies.

Speaker D: Wow.

Speaker A: So I uh, they gave me permission to research and republish that. And so I wrote, I wrote this book back in the 90s, it's still available now. It's called the Code of the Executive. And it was a um, retranslation of this ancient 700 year old leadership training program. And what I noticed is they were struggling with the same problems. So I was like, wow, this is fascinating. So we've got current executives complaining about these things. We have old executives complaining about these things. You know, could this be biological? And so that's what led me into further studies in genetic evolutionary behavior and um, evolutionary psychology and of course the whole biology and biophysics of it all. So that uh, is how I got here. And we started testing new techniques that were different and somewhat controversial, somewhat politically incorrect, uh, but scientifically, uh, defensible models. And companies started doubling their performance in some cases 10 times within a few years, either in terms of revenues or balance sheet impact. Um, and so I started lecturing on this. And um, today we train about 700 CEOs a year and we work with uh, numerous companies that want to implement this. So our best work is with companies that are tired of Theory of the month or the next bright shiny object. And they want something fresh, uh, that is defensible, uh, provable, validated for centuries. And that's kind of where we play.

Speaker D: So that's my, that's really fascinating. And it's obvious that you're taking a holistic approach to leadership development and not just sort of throwing, throwing some tools out there. Right. So I think we're often guilty of that, of just kind of putting a tool out there or dipping people in some training or something. So your approach is very different than that.

Speaker E: Yeah, in fact, um, when we were pulling the dead off of mountains, and it wasn't me personally or my co author, we ended up writing this, um,

Speaker A: this book with Chris Warner, who's one of the top rescue climbers in the world. Um, he was on Everest back I think in 2000 when they had the disaster and basically helped save all these people. That's why it never really made the news. But um, I was climbing with Chris, uh, in the Andes and I noticed that if we test. Because I'm always looking for laboratories to test my theories and uh, either like one laboratory's lost civilization. So if I find a lost civilization, like I'll, I'll parachute in and study them to see how they're leading their companies. Because if it's similar to us, then that probably is biological and genetic and not related to some latest best selling management theory. But also if you put humans in stress situations, you get to see how biological leadership occurs. So one of the ways to do stress situations is to put a human in a death zone environment which is, you know, above like 8,000 meters. And because when you're in these death zones, um, you just want to get out. So high altitude climbing became an idea. And since I was climbing with Chris, um, you know, I was about 20,000ft and uh, we were, we were in the Andes and I thought, wow, what a great Laboratory this would be because I was totally exhausted. I was, I was at the end of my physical endurance and I thought this would be a great place to do a study. So he was going to do uh, K2 with NBC and we decided to do the book live with his K2 expedition. Now K2 is the most dangerous man in the world. I mean the Death rate at K2 is like 10 times higher than Everest. So because Everest is, it's mainly a hike up the mountain. But K2 is more of a vertical technical climb. And um, that's why the death rate is so, so high. Anyway, he's going to film this thing. He got nominated for, I don't know, over 10 Emmys. It was amazing, amazing film that NBC did. But it uh, was during that time that we wrote the book High Altitude Leadership. And um, so High Altitude Leadership was published um, at the end of this expedition experiment. And, and we wrote it live while he was on K2, which was, you know, it was interesting because he had the film and we had the stories, but also we had the dead. And um, Chris over his is such a superior climber and so uh, top of his game that he's pulled enough dead bodies off of mountains that we began to notice they were clutching their tools. And in our research we thought, you know, the problem with a lot of these best selling books every year is they have all these uh, successful companies. And so we have these. Every other is a great company book, right? And they have a great list, uh, but none of the authors admit that their list is going to change in 18 months. But they do. And when we look at the autopsies of these great companies who are no longer great for more than a year or two, um, we find them clutching their tools just like dead climbers. So we ended up finding out that there was a seduction of tools. So we started a chapter in the book called Tool Seduction. And uh, we found the pattern was that climbers who are realizing they're facing death and companies that realize they're facing death start grabbing their tools. And here's the problem, their salvation doesn't come from the tools. It was just a tool. And a lot of companies we found in our research that um, they're not using their tools, the tools are using them. M and that's different, you know. So, uh, tools are great. By the way, I love tools. I'm an MIT geek, so obviously I really enjoy tools. But the difference is if the tool starts using you instead of you using it, that's going to be a Problem.

Speaker D: What's an example of that? I think I know what you mean. But what is an example of the tool using you as opposed to you using the tool?

Speaker E: Well, you can take a look at, um, take any of the waves of trends. You have the quality movements. Um, then there was a big ERP movement and then now there's a big sales, uh, um, system movement. Uh, and when they, when they, when companies bring these tools in, um, you can have two companies. One is highly successful and the other one total failure, and they're using the same tool. And so it's like, what's the difference between these two things? So I was curious about that and curious about the high failure rate, um, of these programs. And so when, in fact, about 20 years ago, we did interesting research in the quality movement to understand why. Why is it working here but not working there? Same trainers, same books, same theories, all that. And yet one successful and one fails. And unfortunately, the failure, the failures outnumber the successes in a lot of these, These movements.

Speaker A: And, um, we found that, you know, mainly when people get seduced by the tools, like, okay, I read a great book which terrifies a lot of employees. When, um, the boss reads a new book.

Speaker E: Yes.

Speaker A: Because it's like, oh, this is the new salvation. And they put their heads down waiting for the next thing to pass. But, um, the thing is that when they just bring it in wholly and just like, hey, we're going to do this the way they said, and we got the experts and the thought leaders and we're doing everything they said, that's the problem. Because the tool needs to support the company. So the tool needs to be modified, it needs to be embraced, it needs to be, um, um, formed in a way to support what's going on. And a lot of authors never saw that happen before they wrote the books. They wrote the books after the company became successful. So they were totally clueless in terms of what really happened. But when he Talked to the CEOs and the employees and the middle management, it's like, no, no, no. This was, this was a struggle. You know, we made this mistake and that mistake, and then we had to recover this. And, and they learned until they reached that point of success. But when the books are published, it's like, oh, no, here's the system. And then we all jump in and, you know, if you're lucky, it works. If you're not lucky, it doesn't. So I've seen situations where, like, the tool was used as a weapon inside the company, you know, where people could

Speaker E: create power or, or some sort of

Speaker A: political influence based upon the tool, you know, and yeah, it just magnified the, you know, it just magnified the dysfunction.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker A: In existence. So, so when we get called in for salvage operations, you know, like I see my thing, you know, I just spent half a million dollars on this thing. It's not working. We'll come in and, and do rescue. But it gives us a good chance to look at the autopsy of the event. And we find is that they were so seduced by the tool they forgot to ask questions like, what's our strategy for winning as a company? And given that strategy, um, is it really a strategy or is it just tactics? That's another problem. There's a lot of companies function off strategies that are really tactics. And so we may go on and just redo their whole strategic planning process because they never really had strategy, but once they have it, it's easier to ask, you know, what tools do we need, what structure, what culture, um, if we're going to put in an ERP system, what type, you know, and which one will allow us to flex, which one can be moldable to our culture like that. So it's really where the, the CEO takes control of the tool and uh, adapts it for their situation.

Speaker D: Yeah, I can relate so well because even in my practice right now, I find myself half the time sort of uh, working through a process with my potential clients to let them know that what they're asking for is not really what they need. And it's not always about upselling them or giving them something, uh, more, uh, but it's about, well, are we basically taking the easy route by dipping people in some training or giving them some tool? And I think we oftentimes kind of move in that direction because let's face it, it's easy to uh, set up a po, write a check, say, okay, we're going to put this tool in place. But sometimes what happens is the spirit of that tool is missing. Just kind of throw the tool out and it doesn't really work. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now Don, I have uh, also heard you, you know, talking more about leadership. I've uh, heard you make a statement about, you know, followers don't follow leaders.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker D: Right. So what is that all about? And what do followers, uh, follow? Tell us more about that.

Speaker E: We were, when my colleague Cameron, ah Lugman at the institute here, he uh, uh, pioneer the creation and innovation research at Apple after Steve Jobs died. And um, which was interesting because um, he was doing it um, and he's be a great guy to those of you. I'll introduce you to him if you like. He was at the Naval Academy and he and I had done a lot of samurai research earlier. So we met 20, 30 years ago, I guess, when I, um, had published the, uh, Code of the Executive, which was that samurai text from Oxford University

Speaker A: from 700 years ago.

Speaker E: And he had already done a lot

Speaker A: of interesting work in warrior philosophy. Um, and he's one of the few people I've met that actually has a real samurai sword. And he's got scars to prove it. But, um, fascinating guy, entrepreneur, brilliant person. And so, uh, when he was at the Naval Academy, uh, he ended up, um, getting approached, um, by the Navy seals on how to be more creative. And the purpose was, you know, when they run out of ammunition, they die. But if they had, if they had other ways they could do this. And so it took him through an interesting journey. Um, he can tell you more of the details, but I think he went to Pixar and Google, but he ended up at Apple. And so they also needed to know how to do this. So a lot of the creation research that we do now and the innovation research we do now came out of a lot of work he did with Apple and, uh, discovering what's happening in the brain now. At the same time, I noticed they wrote a lot of books and movies on Steve Jobs and what do you think they had to say about his management style?

Speaker D: Probably, uh, I don't know. Nothing good, right?

Speaker A: I mean, it was pretty shocking, right?

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker A: Films. You read these books and it's like he was abusive. He was a fricking asshole. This, that he like, violated everything we teach in our MBA programs about how

Speaker E: to be a good manager.

Speaker A: So for me as a researcher, I thought, this is an interesting observation. Why would they publish books like this about a guy who created the most powerful company in the world violating what we currently teach about leadership? And I thought, is anyone else asking this question? I think it's a fascinating question, right? How does a guy create a company this powerful, violating what we teach? So as a researcher, I thought, let's look at that. And I started looking at other, other, uh, leaders that were iconic leaders. And I found out that they were, you know, like, like I was. I'll use in our, in our strategic, um, and when we do strategic planning for companies, we, um, we show the difference between strategy and tactics. And one of the, one of the elements we use is, uh, is the movie patent, right? We reference that movie, Ancient movie decades old, but it was a classic film. And, and, and I, even though he was iconic leader, when he talked to people that were around, I was like, no, the guy was a freaking asshole.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then what, a year or two ago, I, uh, uh, there were some publications on Google. I ran across that like mother Teresa was an asshole. And I'm like, mother Teresa. So I was. All of a sudden it became clear that what are people following? You know, these are leaders that are iconic followers are following something. But was it really them? And I found out that, you know, we're teaching leadership wrong. Our research concluded and we, and then we tested this in a lot of different companies. It was true. It was like people, followers aren't following leaders. Followers are following the compelling call, the compelling saga that the leader represents the story the leader represents, the strategic drama the leader represents. That's what they're following. You know, Steve, if they ran into him on the street, you know, he'd be a friggin asshole.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker A: However, if you talk to him, he's out to change the world, you know, and that's inspiring. So in a sense we follow leaders because of what they represent for us and that's the course we should be teaching.

Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. So uh, of course it does help if you are a person who relates to people well and that sort of thing. Right. If you have a sense of purpose.

Speaker A: I always tell my audiences, I'm not telling you to go back and be an asshole.

Speaker E: Okay.

Speaker A: But I say I might be late for a few of you, however,

Speaker E: better

Speaker A: if you also have the skills and the processes necessary to relate and be a great leader. But I said if you got a bet on one of these sources, you better have something to follow that you represent.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker A: Otherwise you're just going to be a leader throwing a bunch of skills and models and processes at people, but they may not follow you more.

Speaker D: That's very interesting. Now I'm really fascinated by, um, something you said earlier in this conversation, which was the idea that, um, the same challenges that people struggled with, leaders struggled with, I don't know, 700 years ago or whatever are the same challenges. I wonder if you could share a few of those, couple of those with us. Uh, what are some of these challenges that we are still struggling with after hundreds of years?

Speaker E: Well, when you go back and look at some of these, like this ancient samurai text, um, because it was interesting,

Speaker A: I thought, how do they deal with this? But the titles of some of the topics were like, you know, do we have the right strategy to Win people problems. You know, how do we deal with dysfunction, political behavior, selfish agendas? I mean, it was all the normal stuff that we see everywhere. I mean, you know, you watch episodes of that TV series, the Office, right? I mean, one of the most successful TV series, right?

Speaker E: The Office.

Speaker A: People think it's a comedy. I think it's a documentary. I think it's a documentary, right? I mean, all the stuff in there is like, oh, yeah, I've seen that happen. Oh, uh, that guy reminds me of this guy back at the. I mean, right? So look at that. Wait a minute. What is going on here? Could this be really be a biological issue? So when we accepted that these behaviors were thousands of years old, because you go back to early ancient writings, 5000 year old writings, what do you find? You find a manager bitching and moaning about the behavior of people.

Speaker D: Yeah, true.

Speaker A: So we thought, okay, what are we not teaching? What are we not? Uh, um, helping new young leaders realize?

Speaker E: Uh.

Speaker A: And that's when we started using evolutionary genetics and to understand this, because when I was at Johns Hopkins, that's what executives were asking me is, could this be biological? And we found out it was. Um. Another thing we don't teach in our MBA programs or in our, uh, internal leadership courses in our companies is that, uh, all of these things that stop a company, the politics, the selfishness, the hidden agendas, the turf battles, the silos, I mean, are all coming out of fear and selfishness. And yet there's no courses on fear and selfishness. But what if we had one? So actually, we, um. During COVID what I did is I. My cigar room here is like a movie studio. I turned it into a studio so I could take the samurai stuff, put it online. So I started this course called Becoming Samurai. And in Becoming Samurai, it just taught what they were teaching. And what were they teaching? That until we can get in touch with the fears that cause us to react selfishly, we can't achieve honor and bravery. And we can shut down any change program, any leadership development program in any company. You induce enough fear and selfishness into an organization, you can stop, uh, or slow down, seriously, any initiative they've got, because the politics will rise up. And that, uh, causes most of the autopsies we find in organizations. But where's it all coming from? It was coming back to that genetic evolutionary cycle, which means selfishness is appropriate strategy for genetic warfare. And none of this is taught in our companies. But as a species, we are just like other animals, which are all selfish, because selfishness works. See, Selfish animals stay alive longer. And if they stay alive longer, they have more opportunity to commit war. And what's genetic war? Replicating the data in your cells. So, uh, you know, dead animals. Dead animals don't replicate, live animals do.

Speaker E: Right.

Speaker A: So the more that you can replicate the DNA in your cells is how you commit genetic warfare. So now it makes sense. We as a species are going to see that selfishness in our companies because it's part of who we are. However, we don't have to let it stay there. And this is where, um, the samurai research was great because, ah, uh, wow, fear and selfishness there. It's going to cause these problems in our companies. And we try to get something done, it's going to extend our execution rates beyond. And I do this test, I ask seven, uh, hundred CEOs a year, how much time is wasted in your company in dysfunctional behavior. And they all come up with like an average of 50%. And then I show them that that's there because of this genetics and had override it. The samurai used a concept called death. And I began to realize it wasn't physical death, it was death of the ego. So the challenge for the CEO, Remember I talked about having a compelling saga or strategic drama, that's the challenge of leaders everywhere, is your people need to commit suicide. Not like the physical samurai suicide. But it was really the samurai teaching ego suicide. So can we teach each other to commit suicide to that ego agenda for the higher cause? And how many times we heard that throughout history, every civilization had some way of expressing death for the cause. Death to the cause, death to self. That's what it's all about. So a leader needs to create something ahead of their people enough so they can override that selfish agenda. And if they don't, it'll degrade back into, uh, another episode of the Office.

Speaker D: So powerful. So powerful and so very, very well put. Uh, I tell you, I, my experience is, has, uh, been the same, even though I've never really sort of articulated this way, and I haven't heard it articulated this way. But, but I have the saying, it says I am the One and it's not about me. And, and you know, and I found this to be sort of two ingredients that are really important, uh, in that you got to be, you got to declare yourself the One in the context of something bigger than you.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker D: But at the same time you got to get that it's not about you. And if we don't recognize that just genetically or, you know, just this is how we're built that our default mode is it's all about me. And you know all of that kind of stuff, Right?

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker D: Then we won't be able to conquer that, Conquer that self.

Speaker E: That's it. That's it. And the thing is, this has been with us for thousands of years and

Speaker A: yet we still have all these new tools that ignore it. And then you wonder why the tools don't work. Tools are great, tools are cool. But if not driven by this belief, then it's a waste.

Speaker D: Yeah. It's icing on a mud pie. Deal with the real issue. You know, uh, also with my clients, I do this thing that I call personal transformation. It's a four hour conversation. It simply is a conversation that's not exactly the same every time, but it's got certain components. But, uh, it sort of turns into whatever we need to talk about to be able to kind of see beyond our own tendency to kind of make everything mean something about me and so on and so forth. And I'm just amazed at just the, just the difference that it makes to just spend a few hours just recognizing how you're operating and how you're kind of pointing out there for the problems. And, uh, you stay in that survival mode as opposed to, look, you know, whatever helps you survive doesn't help you thrive.

Speaker E: Yeah.

Speaker D: You know, gotta conquer that.

Speaker E: Yeah. And as a leader, you'll be able to follow you. You have to have something there. But these are, I mean, these are deep questions that you're, you're asking. And as you know from your work, that if it was easy, we'd all be doing it. But we get so seduced by the, by the new tools, the new, what they say, bright shiny object or whatever that is. Um, and it just, it just delays the journey.

Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, you know, I know you also, you know, talk about this whole program, uh, of the month, uh, syndrome, uh, if you will. And I know there, you know, uh, many, uh, organizations that I go into, um, have had some false starts, if you will, and they've got, you know, people who are kind of standing back saying, okay, is this the program of the month? Uh, and you know what I mean? My answer to them is, I don't know. I mean, it really depends on whether we actually do something with this or allow this to be a program of the month. But what are your thoughts around how we can kind of get over that or deal with this whole program of the month syndrome relative to an organization that doesn't really believe that something is a Sustainable effort.

Speaker A: I always, uh. And the autopsies that we've done on the field changes like that. And you articulated it very well. There is a cynicism there because people want to become experienced. That's the first thing they think of, is this the next program of the month? Uh, what we found that works better is we start with strategic impact. In other words, if there's no strategic impact for doing this, then let's not do it. So the conversation is, if you can't articulate how this thing is going to help impact your balance sheet or your P and L performance or your market penetration or some sustainable competitive advantage, then don't do it. You know, I mean, it's okay if it's. If it's like a skills class, you know, how to do better speaking or writing or communication or how to run a better meeting, that's fine. But if you're looking at some of these things around culture and structure and, um, you know, leadership development, there should be an identifiable strategic impact. And then when you back into it, people, uh, don't have to ask that question anymore because they should be able to say, oh, here's why we're doing that, because we're weak in this area, or we lost this battle before because we didn't have this. We couldn't adapt fast enough, or we weren't listening to the customer or something was wrong and we're going to fix that. This happens to be a system to allow us to do that, to get better, then it makes sense. Then it makes sense. Um, and we found that backing into it from a strategic context, so always better, because sometimes you back into it, it's like, you know, you really don't need this to you.

Speaker D: Yeah, no, that's a really good point. You know, and I have to. I have to admit that as a person who kind, uh, of grew up in manufacturing, so I have a master's in mechanical engineering and, you know, 31 years in manufacturing and supply chain. But I was always guy who was kind of leaning toward organizational development and that sort of thing. I have to admit that for years I was, uh, frustrated with my bosses who didn't get the value of those kinds of things. And then I started really sort of taking responsibility for that and saying, look, I got to show them how this is going to help them. So over the years, I've kind of evolved as well. And now I coach people. I said, listen, uh, you got this organizational thing going on, and let me tell you, I'm a huge fan of that kind of work. But unless you have a compelling reason and, uh, a compelling difference you're going to make, it's just going to fizzle out. Because after a while people are like, hey, and this sounds like this is just Kumbaya. You have to be able to tie it to some kind of compelling reason why you're doing it and some shift and transformation you're going to make happen in the organization.

Speaker E: Yeah. And it's good that you have that background because. Oh, I didn't know you were a mechanical engineer. That's perfect. It's perfect. Yeah. In engineering, you know, it's not about as much philosophy or, you know, it's real stuff. It's either going to work or it's not going to work. And how do you engineer it to make it happen? So in some cases, you couldn't communicate it up to your bosses until you could show them the impact. But were there also times where they were telling you about a new program and you're scratching your head thinking, how's this going to help us again?

Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, of course, yes. And I think it's important, important both ways, is to really establish that understanding. And what we used to. You know, I work for Proct gamble for, uh, 19 years. And one of the topics, one of the concepts that we talked about was creating common objectives, uh, which says, okay, you know what? As an employee, I have common objectives with the company. And I know that if I do what's right for the company, it's also right for me. Uh, and maybe not just for me personally, but right for whatever silo I'm in and whatever. I understand the reasoning. While we're moving in this direction, and oftentimes we skip that and say, okay, march this way. And at some point people see that conflict, they're like, look, look, you're pulling me this way. I really don't think that's good for me.

Speaker E: Yes. Yeah, it's exactly right. In fact, um, George Stock published a great, um, Harvard article. He's been a great author in a number of Harvard Business Review articles. And his latest one, about a year ago, was about around disruption, how to avoid disruption, or in a sense, how to cause disruption, which is a big deal now. And he was using a system that was, uh, used in the jet fighter pilot training called the OODA Loop, which allowed pilots with a deficient aircraft against an enemy aircraft that would be superior by all measures, have a 10 to 1 kill ratio. And so they were interested in how this happening, but it was really a way of thinking that's what you're describing. It's really a way of thinking about the problem to where we can arrive at some conclusion that makes sense. And so George Stock published this thing. Now, George started, I don't know if you read Competing against time, like 20 years ago, but he started the whole Competing Against Time revolution with that book. And the guy's a brilliant researcher and he's worked with some of the top companies in the world. And I spent about two to three hours a week with George. But we get together on a Zoom. We just. We just share research, we share insights. And I actually have him in my Becoming Samurai course because I was so enamored with this OODA Loop concept that I put it in the course as a way for students to apply what they're learning. But then I took an interview with him on Zoom and jumped into there too, so they get the author of the actual article. And I just loved it so much because I think what you're saying, it comes, I think, to that point, which

Speaker A: is it's one thing to say, here's the action we're going to take, but if you don't do the front end of that, there's just going to be a bunch of arguments. And the front end of that is common observation. You know, what are the things we're observing? And then the second part, the second O in the OODA loop is what does it mean? It's orientation. Let's orient around all of we're observing to find out what does this mean? And that is the most important part. Because if you can't converge on some common meeting, as you described earlier, then you can't move to the decision phase, which is hypothetically, what are other various alternatives we have, and then we act. But if you're taking that journey alone, you got a bunch of people saying, why are we doing this? And maybe, maybe you don't see what it means. Maybe the orientation didn't involve everyone, like in your case, as an engineer, maybe there were some changes. Whereas if they had asked us to participate in this, we could have given them some more insight around how to orient around this problem and come up with a better alternative. So, um, it all makes sense. But when we train leaders, we forget that this is the process of thinking. But in engineering, you know, you're taught that, aren't you? When you were in engineering school, they taught you how to look at a problem, how to orient around it, how to cope with solutions. So that is what made you great at what you're doing. Today is because I think that thinking that you got as an engineer helps.

Speaker D: Yeah. Uh, I think you're so right in the way you're describing that because oftentimes we kind of skip the first couple of steps and go right into decision. And, and you said, and people are asking, why are we doing that? And I think that the worst thing is they're asking themselves, but they're not asking out loud. And it's like, you know what? They go along with what I consider to be 50, 50 commitment. Like, you know, yeah, I'm conditionally committed to this. Like, you know, I'll do my part. Uh, but you and I both know that when it comes to, you know, a meaningful transformation, you know, that 50, 50 commitment or some, some half, uh, hearted compliance doesn't really cut it. Right. We've got to have everybody in the boat. And I think sometimes what happens though is that people want to make things happen quickly and they take these shortcuts, uh, that ultimately sabotage the whole. I mean, usually when I find myself slowing things down, when I get involved in any kind of organization, but in the end it actually speeds everything up. So my promise to the client is, look, at the end, when you look at this, you're gonna see that this moved so much faster, but at the beginning it's gonna feel slow. So that's.

Speaker E: I know, I know. It's like that. What's that old parable? The guy stalling this log with a doll saw and somebody comes and says, why don't you sharpen the saw? And he's like, I don't have time to sharpen the saw. You know, yes, there's all day saw that long. Whenever you just sharpen it, he could have went, right. And it's so true. And I think the, uh, you know, you know, your work as an engineer has probably helped you see a lot of this through, but helping people understand it is, can be a problem. And there's also sometimes. Do you find that sometimes people are trying to solve problems that are just symptoms of deeper problems? Yes.

Speaker A: You know, so they go through this thing and I always make like we do our two day off site retreats, one on strategy, intuition and transformation, that we sometimes use Grendel's mother, the poem. And, uh, where, you know, Rothgar is, he's trying to get rid of this dragon that's terrorizing his village. And finally he kills the dragon. And then it's like, that wasn't the dragon, it was the other one, the mother of Grendel. Grendel's mother. It's the dragon. Oh, we forgot, you know, so that's a bigger dragon. So a lot of times we're killing small dragons and we're missing the big main one. And once they find that out, it's easier.

Speaker D: Yeah. And I think the real value or the greater value of the work that you do is not just sort of solving the problems at hand by finding the root cause organizationally, but what I've seen is leaders really grow when they are kind of, uh, they're put in that position where they can't just take the easy route and go after, um, the symptom, but they really sort of learn how to look for the root cause and address that. And guess what? When you address the root cause, there are three other problems that you had that you hadn't really even noticed. They get solved all of a sudden.

Speaker E: Right, Exactly. So I think leadership is around. Thinking skills are important, and we got to go through all that EQ and IQ and behavioral profiling and, uh, just learning the various areas of how to discover talent, how to grow.

Speaker A: But at the end of the day,

Speaker E: it's, you know, why are they following you? And that's where these levels of thinking start coming to bear. So, uh, we teach a lot about the tools, the skills, you know, how to, how to manage talent, how to, you know, how to assess behavioral profiles, how to do eq, how to do this. And these are all great tools, but

Speaker A: the issue of thinking is really, I think, the source of it all. What does the leader believe in? What are they following? How do they see the world? How can they make decisions, solve problems? What's the saga that they are part of? The compelling saga. We stole that from the Vikings. What's the thing that's going to allow us to get on this boat with this leader and want to follow them into the dark waters? Not, uh, because it's fun and motivational. And I'm all for, hey, look, I'm all for color theory and trust falls, but at the end of the day, it's about risking suffering and sacrifice together

Speaker E: for a higher cause. Yes.

Speaker A: And that's what people are going to follow, and that's what we should be teaching.

Speaker D: Absolutely. Now, very, very wise words. I have thoroughly, uh, enjoyed this, and I just know it's going to make a huge difference for our listeners. Thank you so much, uh, Don. And I know you're not hard to find on the Internet, uh, but if you don't mind, just, uh, let us know what is the best way for, uh, folks to get a hold of you and find out more about the programs that you guys run.

Speaker E: Well, thank you. Yeah, you can go to the web saga leadership.com s a g a with the Vikingsaga leadership.com that should lead you into a bunch of stuff from there.

Speaker D: All right. Thank you so much. I appreciate your time. Yeah.

Speaker A: Oh, by the way, if you want to go to saga leadership.com I hope this is working slash podcast. There are some resources they could download also.

Speaker D: Super.

Speaker A: A lot of stuff but I've been like a PowerPoint presentation whatever they want to download.

Speaker D: Super. We'll be sure to put the, the, uh, links in the uh, podcast notes as well.

Speaker E: Great. Thanks.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me.

Speaker E: Appreciate it.

Speaker B: You've been listening to the Transformative Leader podcast with Amir Gannad. If you haven't already, don't forget to subscribe. Subscribe to the show so that you never miss an episode and if you enjoyed this episode, would love to hear from you. Leave a comment, rating, or review wherever you listen to podcasts and be sure to share the show with others who would benefit from our content. Don't forget to visit our website@theganadgroup.com to learn more about the ways in which we guide leaders in crime, creating extraordinary cultures that deliver breakthrough results and unprecedented fulfillment. While you're there, you can download our free ebook and audio series on making your culture transformation stick@theganadgroup.com culture ebook as always, feel free to drop me a line@amirnatgroup.com and connect with me on LinkedIn, um, Facebook and Twitter. Until next time, May you boldly declare, courageously pursue, and abundantly achieve the extraordinary.