How Do 90% of Your Graduates Come Back to Live & Work in the Same County? - with Dr. Rosalie Mince, President, Carroll Community College

Welcome back, everybody. It's your time to add up on the EdUp Experience podcast, where we make education your business. This is Dr. Joe Salustio back with you on another episode of the EdUp Experience podcast, as we are going to interview another amazing college president.

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There is nothing more important in my mind than educating the masses. And we've got a great president here, ladies and gentlemen. She's Dr. Rose Mance.

She's president at Carroll Community College. Rose, welcome to the mic. How are you? I'm well.

I'm really honored to join the EdUp Experience and be part of this conversation with leaders who care deeply about the future of higher education. So, you know, and that's great. That's great leading because I usually start by having you tell us, you know, where you're located and who you serve. And I'll ask that next.

But literally, when I saw your information come across this morning, it led with passionate community college advocate. And I'm like, oh, I like that. When you're leading with that, it really says who you are. Can you tell us why you're so passionate about community colleges?

You just made the list. That's right. We want you to try ed up leadership. And yes, Elvin and I built it ourselves.

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com. It's going to be legendary. We talk a lot about innovation in higher ed, but we don't talk enough about the operational backbone that makes it possible. We're bringing that conversation to center stage at the ACOPS conference by CourseDog.

It brings together registrars, provosts, and academic leaders to share how to connect curriculum, catalog, scheduling, and assessment, moving your team from reactive work to proactive planning. Join us July 29th through 31st in San Diego at the Hard Rock Hotel. You just made the list! Well, I was a community college student way back in the day and had such a wonderful experience.

and I always thought I was going to work in higher education, but I thought I was going to be at a four-year institution. But that community college experience, like I said, just got me started. And my mission, my heart, my advocacy has always been with community college. That's awesome.

Well, tell us about Carroll Community College a little bit, where you're situated. You know, if somebody was listening and hasn't heard of it before, where are you? Who do you serve and how do you serve them? Wonderful question.

So we are located in Westminster, Maryland, which is about 35 miles from Baltimore and about 60 miles from Washington, D.C. So we are a small rural community college. But even though we're small, we offer comprehensive high-quality programming that prepares students for transfer, meaningful careers, and lifelong personal enrichment.

So we combine a close-knit support community to the breadth and depth of what the workforce needs. Amazing. You know, when you situate it physically, 35 minutes, you said to Baltimore or 35 miles? About 35.

35 miles. And 60 to D.C. Yeah.

One wouldn't think rural community college. You'd think like, is there like a Mecca being, you know, created in that middle area? But if you're rural, it really means that you have students either coming from the city out to see you or you're really serving a particular part of the region that you're in, right? Are you getting students from everywhere or are you really serving that region?

Well, like most community colleges, our border is the geographic area of the community. So overwhelmingly, we serve students who live in Carroll County, but we certainly do draw some from the entire region. Talk to me about retention of your students upon graduation. Rural community colleges typically have an ongoing, I don't know if it's a battle is the right word, but an ongoing imperative to take these graduates and keep them in region as much as possible because it helps the economy and start small businesses and so on.

And that is difficult because sometimes those graduates, you're transferring out, some of them transferring out to a four-year, and then some of them getting those skills and maybe moving closer to a city where maybe there's more jobs or otherwise. Is that something that you contend with on a daily basis? Not to a large degree. I think our research shows that over 90 percent of our students come back to Carroll County.

So they go away to four year institutions all over the country, but most of them come back and live and work in Carroll County. So that's really great. It is a wonderful place to live and work and people love it here. We have many families who have been here for hundreds of years in farming communities, but we also have the southern part of the county that is very, very vibrant, lots of businesses and industry.

So it's a nice mix of things that we have going on in Carroll. Now, somebody who works at a rural community college is listening to this, and you said 90 percent are coming back and they're thinking, are you kidding me? What are you doing? How is it possible?

Because that is a very high stat compared to some of the other community college leaders that I talked to. Is it the vibrancy of business? Is it the beauty of the landscape? What is the draw for Carroll County?

I certainly would say some of it is the beauty of the landscape. But there is a very high quality of living. We have very low crime, very high quality of life, excellent education, wonderful schools. So there's an awful lot going on in the county that people enjoy and make some want to live here, raise their families here.

That's great, right? Because hopefully that they're raising their family and sending those children to Carroll County Community College, right? That's right. We're always in the next generation.

That's right. So what are some of the things that you contend with? I mean, you know, give us the state of community colleges and rural areas today. What are some of the challenges that you face as we move forward into this uncertain higher ed future?

Well, like everybody, we are looking at the changing demographic of our students. We have fewer students who are graduating high school, by and large, and there's a lot of competition for where those students can go to school. In the state of Maryland, we are blessed with many wonderful institutions. And so we're all fighting for those same students.

Of course, we want them to get their start here at Carroll and then transfer on to wherever else they want to go. But students also, I think many of your presidents have said, are needier in many ways than they've ever been before. They've been through a pandemic and they really need a strong support system. And I think that's one of the things that we do particularly well at Carroll is provide that support system, which is one of the reasons that our students are so successful.

so define that needier for me a little bit because i i have heard that before is is is it like a i don't know this sounds horrible when i say it so you know just throwing that out there first is that a mental uh needier is it physical is it support where where students of today are used to having more intervention. Define that need here as you see it. I think that we have, and I think this is a good thing, help students to become more assertive in identifying what they need and asking for it in a way that we have not had in the past.

So through the mental health work and many of the things that we do, we're helping students put a name to things, let them know that we're here to support them, and they're asking for that support, and we're working really hard to try to provide it. Tell them like it is. Do you think that has anything to do with technology today? You think that we're getting too used to trying to look for things on our phone or hiding behind the social media that students aren't coming out and going, hey, I really need this.

They're looking for, I don't know, more silent ways to request services? Certainly there's some of that, but technology, I think we would only say, is a double-edged sword, right? So there are so many additional things that we can do through technology and support and embrace it, as well as the challenges that provides in distancing us from others. But at this point at Cary, about a third of our students are taking distance learning courses.

So you certainly need to reach out to them and do everything that we can to help them feel as connected as the students who are here on campus. And so they're in the region. They drivable I assuming or commuter students or they on campus and they taking online courses because what today student wants the mix They want the hybrid They want to be there sometimes and be online sometimes and be able to choose it their way Yes, I think that's exactly it, right? So it's convenience.

It's that they're raising families. It's that they have lots of other things going on. They're high school students and they're on teams and they're on theater productions. And so they need things to be when it's convenient for them.

And so that's one of the challenges, I think, particularly in community colleges is to offer things via many different modalities so that students can get what they want when they want it. You know, so you're going to be two years in to presidency coming up here soon. Right. What are you most proud of in this two years so far?

Is there something that you've accomplished and you go, you know what, that was a thing that did this? Is there something that you can point out? You go, man, I really nailed that one. Well, one of the first things that a new president has to do is set their vision.

And for me, I really wanted that vision to be the entire community's vision, not what I wanted the college to be heading towards, but what the community wanted the college to be heading towards. So one of the first things that I got started on was a new strategic plan. And it was really important to me that that plan be a viable living document that really was valuable to the institution and to the community, not something that was going to sit on the shelf, as so often is said.

And so I looked at what so many other colleges were doing and tried to get some motivation and some inspiration from other strategic plans. And I'll tell you that, frankly, they were really boring. They were really the same set of words just put together in slightly different ways, almost no matter where I looked. And so I kept thinking about, well, what is unique about CAROL?

How do we build on this culture of care that we're known for? And one of the things that struck me is that on the outside of our main administration building is an inscription, Enter to Learn. And I hadn't seen that at any other college. And I kept thinking about that and thinking about that.

And what an invitation that is to our community that as you come in, we're inviting you, enter to learn. And so that was the primary theme for the strategic plan. And then we expanded it to be enter to learn, enter to experience, and enter to earn. And that's really who we are and what we're about.

We are about our students, about our employees, about our community coming in to build bridges to success, to promote well-being and to help people put together those credentials that are going to take them where they want to go. Outstanding. Yeah, you know, I will also agree that strategic plans, because I view many as part of the research that I do and otherwise, are mostly similar. And they do take some words that are key terminology, you know, graduates and student success and sort of flip them in different ways of structuring a sentence to make them sound a little bit differentiated.

but often they do sit on the shelf and often people don't revisit them and they have that sameness sitting on a shelf and you wonder what what's happening with it i do like your plans unique in that you know i always talk these these earn to learn models you know or learn to earn sorry learn to earn models and you've painted the middle um right like learn to earn learn to earn yes yes but there's a middle part you got to do it you got to have something that prepares you right And that's more important than ever, isn't it?

The experience? Yes. Yes, absolutely. I'm really glad that you picked up on that.

Everyone is a learner, right? Not just our students, but the employees are learners, our business owners are learners, everyone. And so the more we can embrace that open mindset and that growth mindset and be realizing that the more we come together and learn from each other, the better it's going to be for all of us. So we're really proud of the plan.

That's what I'm trying to say Thursday. Yeah. So what, um, does it help you drive change when you call back on the experience piece, right? You know, higher ed isn't known and you know, this, you're a provost too.

Not all, not everything is as fast as we would like it to be. We can get mired down in committees and maybe over socialization. Sometimes the institutional view outranks or maybe overshadows the student view. And we have to remind people around us, like, look, we got to put the student first.

I know it might be easier to do it this way, but it's not better for the student. Do you call back to that part of the strategic plan? Absolutely. Everything that we do is about student learning.

And that's one of the beautiful things about Carol. One of the reasons that I wanted to be president here was that whole culture that people here absolutely embrace the community college mission. Overwhelmingly, people love working here. There's such a positive vibe.

And so that really helps the students have that experience. When I see students, no matter where I see them in the community, in the grocery store, you know, taking a walk, they love to come over and tell me what they're doing now. And always they have a great story about their Carol experience. The faculty were so caring.

Everyone was so friendly. I wish Carol could have been a four-year institution because I had such a great experience there. Parents can't wait to tell me the same kinds of things. Wow, I wish that you had been a four-year college because they did even better with you than they did when they transferred.

And so that's just heartwarming. And like I said earlier, I think it's part of how we know that we are doing well. We have great retention, excellent graduation rates. We've been recognized in the state and across the country by WalletHub and Research.

com and College Consensus, a number of those other types of ranking organizations. And that's encouraging and affirming. But it's much more about that student experience and their satisfaction. So we have on our latest satisfaction student survey, 98% of students said that they would recommend Carol to a friend.

So, yeah. That's awesome. 98%. 98%?

Wow. 98%. I mean, that's something to be proud of, for sure. I mean, what a, I mean, you know, that's actually amazingly, that's incredible.

Because it's often, first of all, that's really hard to measure. Because a lot of times students who would recommend you don't always fill out that stuff. And you know what I mean? Like it's the ones who don't want to recommend you that are first to fill out those surveys.

And so it becomes really hard to see the truth. But to see that engagement and understand that students are saying that, it's really a testament to your team, isn't it? And the work they're doing? Yeah.

I love the people who work here. Absolutely. Absolutely. What do you so the opposite of the question I asked you what you're most proud of is maybe what are you still working on that you want to achieve where you feel the job's yet not done?

This is something that we need to focus on more as the years roll on or months or days doesn't matter. What's in your mind, top of mind and things that need to be checked off? Great. So Carroll started as a branch campus of another community college, again, being rural, bringing access to the folks who lived in Carroll County.

And we really started as a transfer-focused institution. And we still do a great job with that. Our students do exceedingly well upon transfer, better than students who started a four-year institution. But what we were slower to get going was really the workforce development side of things at Carroll.

And so recently, we put together funding from federal funds, state funds, private philanthropy to open a Ratcliffe center based on a Ratcliffe grant, the Ratcliffe Applied Technology and Trade Center. And so this is one of our new areas of emphasis. It's bringing our mission to life in a new way. So we're going to have a 10,000-foot off-campus facility where we are going to be able to offer programs that we've never been able to offer before and some that we have been offering but in greatly expanded ways.

So welding, automotive technology, HVAC, plumbing, advanced manufacturing. and there is such a demand for the skilled trades, not only in Carroll, but really across the country. And so we're really excited about being able to meet that response to the urgent need and prepare students for these skilled trades where they can make a great living and really take care of their families. Let's go!

What are the businesses around you saying? Lining up to go, hey, when are you getting the facility done? What program are you going to start with? Because I'd really like you to start with automotive tech.

I'd really like you to start with HVAC. You know, what are you going to get? When am I going to get involved? You know, are you taking interest from the local businesses to maybe be a part of the curriculum building and the advisory?

You know, what's that buzz like? All of that. Oh, excuse me. All of that.

We already have wait lists for a number of our programs, and some of them haven't even started yet. And people are very excited. But the people who are most excited are in the employers by far. So we have had an outpouring of support that is just really tremendous.

Ultimately, what we would love to do is have our own building on our campus and not have to be renting a facility because I think we're going to outgrow that facility as soon as it's opened. You know, you never know. Those businesses might love it so much. They get together and all pump in a bunch of dollars to help you get there.

Right. When they know those graduates are coming out and they know that they've got a talent pipeline, it becomes a heck of a lot more valuable to invest in the future. especially if they have any kind of, if they can give their knowledge of what the industry looks like and have it shape the curriculum so that they have college, you know, industry ready graduates who are coming out of those programs. And that's exactly what they're saying.

And we need those employers to work with us. Many of them are adjunct faculty who are teaching the courses, right? Because that's exactly what you want. You want the excellent people, the experts who are in the field to be the ones who are teaching the students.

And we have also a number of apprenticeships, which is just perfect, right? So students are being paid to learn while they are working in the field, getting the skill set. And then when they finish their apprenticeship, they've got that job in hand. It's really a wonderful model.

Can you talk really briefly, since we're talking about this, really an extension of what you were doing before, right? You're, you're, you're, yeah, the associate degree programs, I'm guessing, and now it's okay. Okay. We don't have enough in the workforce area.

We need to extend to this. Um, because the market is saying that you need to write students are interested in these programs, but that you can't just do it. It takes infrastructure. It takes re-imagining of new programs.

It takes a different, maybe more staff. I'm, I'm maybe listing areas that, that you have to think about. maybe it takes career services build out somebody who's going to go out and build the partnerships with the community and the local businesses can you give us some insight pulled back the hood from us when you decided to move and extend into these areas what did that mean for me from an operational perspective that you had to think about that you weren doing before and maybe not didn have as much focus on well first i have to give a lot of credit to my team because they knew what they were doing They saw the vision and all I had to do was help them get there But you mentioned earlier partnerships, and that's really how we've been able to do what we're doing.

So partnerships with businesses, partnerships with the education community, partnerships with our transfer institutions, partnerships with our foundation who has raised money for us to be able to do these things. So it's been a culmination of lots of things coming together. It has not been a quick and easy route, I'll tell you that. This location that we are using now is the third one that we explored.

So we thought we were there two times beforehand. And so we've been waiting a lot. They say third time is the charm, Rose. Yeah.

That has to be. Has to be. that. What weren't you thinking about that had to happen in order to do this?

Like, was there something on your radar and you went, oh, shoot, we got to do this. Anything that you could think of that you'd advise maybe another president who's thinking about extending more into the workforce area to keep top of mind? Here's a quick word about EdUp Leadership. It's the intelligence platform built from 475 plus presidential conversations.

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There are so many approvals that have to be put into place, right? So in Carroll County, one of the things that is precious is water. We're on a lot of wells and so our water supply is limited. And so we had to apply for water rights to be able to open a new building.

So, again, back to partnerships and working with our local political leaders and helping us with the different approvals and things that we needed to make all of this happen. So I would say, as far as words of wisdom, it's going to take much longer than you anticipate and all kinds of things that you didn't expect. But the more friends and partners that you have in the community, the easier it's going to go. And really, I have to say that the people of Carroll County have the same vision that we do.

And because all of us see the value on what we're doing, they've been just super cooperative. So you haven't really had to sell the value of extending into this area, but just more navigate the bureaucracies of doing it? Exactly. We have not had to sell it at all.

Others have helped us sell it. It's a yes from me. Right. That's that's amazing.

Right. Because, you know, that the market is is ripe for it. Right. We know students and artificial intelligence is doing this a lot.

Right. It's changing the way we have to think about teaching and learning in the future. And are you know, in the next 10 years, are the classical degrees going to be the same have the same demand? Or are you going to have a new type of student that's looking at more short-term stackables, moving at different speeds all throughout the educational journey?

So it brings up a lot of questions on what the future looks like. And I think it looks a lot, in my mind, it looks a lot like what workforce is starting to look like, where I can go and I can get this credential. And maybe it leads into something else. And yes, it's funded for me.

And yes, the institution is going to track it, workforce, tell, or otherwise. and maybe I'll come back later and get something else and it feeds this other thing. Are students thinking that way yet? Are we just experimenting with this idea of students that we can stack credentials or is it something that's becoming more common?

It's much more common for certain students. I wouldn't say it's there for your younger, more traditional student. I don't even think they know about what all the possibilities are that are out there. But one of the things that we are very intentional about here at Carroll is building in experiential learning in every one of our programs.

So regardless of what you're studying, you are getting some hands-on career-related experience along the way so that you're getting a good taste of what you're going to be doing in the future. And you're making a good decision about whether or not that's the way that you want to go. But it's also making you a very well-rounded person so that if you do change careers, and most people will, you've still got that very strong foundation that's going to serve you well, regardless of what direction you want to take.

Go back to the employers who are really interested in the graduates with the new facility that you're populating. What are they saying about the skills that students need or the skills that they need the graduates to have, I guess is the better way to ask it. What do they really want out of these grads? One of the things that they are most excited about is that we are doing the preliminary training that they don't have the time and the manpower to do.

So in plumbing, for example, one of our board members has a plumbing business, and he's a fabulous supporter of the institution. And he says that it takes at least two years to get plumbers up to speed to be able to go out and do the kinds of jobs that he needs them to be doing. He doesn't have time or the resources to devote those two years to getting people ready for that. So when they come through our program and they walk in the door with that skill set, then he can give them that final expertise that they need to really, you know, excel in his field.

So that's just one example. But it's that getting students up to snuff and ready to go to step right into the workforce is really the value that we're providing. Yeah, I mean, as small businesses, they have limited capacity. So that makes a lot of sense, right?

They don't have this, they don't have the staff to devote to training. You know, there is the argument that's happening in high red. I don't know if it's argument, but you know, it's like students need more technical skills. Do they need the more human skills?

Do they need a little bit of both? Do they need, you know, do they need to be proficient or capable with artificial intelligence when they step out into the workforce? What are you seeing from that level of, you know, tactical versus philosophical types of skills? Well, I know that students are anxious to be earning those high wages.

So they're impatient to move quickly as well. So again, coming through the community college and getting that training speeds up their pathway to higher learning. So it's really all of the above. All of the above.

What about AI? Talk to me about that. How are you thinking about artificial intelligence, both internally and externally? Because our internal adoption and our external communication are often cognitive dissonance for higher ed.

Like we've got we're having this argument behind closed doors about what's acceptable and what's not. In the meantime, the employers are saying, hey, I'd love AI proficient grads. And you really need to teach them those skills while they're there. And so we go, yeah, we got to teach them the skills, but I don't know if I agree with all this AI stuff.

It's really an interesting dichotomy that exists right now within colleges and universities, as if anything else isn't, but it really is fascinating. What's happening at Carroll? Give us a look at how your staff and faculty are thinking about AI internally and what the market is saying externally. Well, that's a big question.

There's a lot there. I would say just as we are building in experiential learning for all of our programs, we're also building in the AI component. And whether or not we think that's the way that we want to go, that's what the industry is showing us, right? So finding out, for example, in dental assisting, what AI you're going to be using in a dental office, it would be remiss of us if we were not preparing students for what they need to be able to enter into the workforce.

So we have to embrace it. On the other hand, we also have to keep all those human-centered skills because more than ever, that's what we need. So that's what I meant earlier about all of the above. We need to prepare them for everything.

And so looking back to the strategic plan, we're trying to prepare students for today and the immediate needs, but we're also on that strategic plan looking to the future so that we're preparing for 10, 20, 30 years into the future. And while we don't have a crystal ball, we are trying to pay attention and use organizations such as yours, right, to listen to what people are saying and to do our best to remain resilient and ready for the needs of the future. So I think we just absolutely have to, to the degree that we can, embrace AI and use it in a way that gives our students an advantage.

One of our faculty members, for example, was looking at the students from his program who are the first to be hired. And so he interviewed all of those students and he said, what is it that makes you so special compared to the students who aren't being hired right away? And now he's put together this workshop for students that is optional for them to take. But it's like, if you really want to get ahead, here's what recent hires are telling you you need to do.

So it's that kind of listening and embracing and being open to change that I think really is what we need to be doing. What are they telling? What got those students ahead? Well, in this case, I'm thinking about cybersecurity.

And it was the particular certifications and the skill set that they needed that when employers looked at their resume, That was something that helped them stand out. But it was also the teamwork and the people skills. I like that. Right.

That's coming up a lot. Right. We're hearing that a lot. It's the people skills.

It's the problem solving, critical thinking, creativity, which I think is the skill of creativity is really important for like the arts and problem solving and all those reasons. but also when using artificial intelligence, students are having to be really creative and it makes you open up a part of your brain that maybe doesn't exist for some like me. I have zero creativity, zero. And now I can podcast and we produce so much of it with artificial intelligence and we're always, Elvin and I are kicking around ideas on how we can do things faster, better.

And all of a sudden this creative side of my brain opens up and creativity is this really interesting skill It spanning both the human side and the AI side and it forcing us as educators to challenge our own creativity where maybe change has been hard for us And now I got a student who wants to use artificial intelligence Our employer is saying that they need to, and I need to come around. I need to get there. Now I'm being challenged. My creativity is going to be challenged.

That's hard. That's hard. That's why change is hard in higher ed, right? Well, we also have an area of our workforce, business, and community education division that is called Business Solutions, where we can do contract training for almost anything that an employer is looking for.

And one of the areas where we've taken the lead is with AI and helping businesses see how they can be embracing it, not fighting it, and really use it to best advantage. We had one of our local organizations who had this training from us, and the gentleman said to me, for 20 years, this has been an issue, how to schedule our employees in a way and deal with all these intricacies. And he said, your faculty member created an app and in five minutes solved a problem that we've been working on for 20 years.

He's like, this is the most amazing thing ever, right? And so he's excited about what we did for him. And now he's out in the community and he's telling anyone else who will listen about the wonderful job that Carroll Community College is doing an AI training. So that's the kind of thing, again, that we can do that makes us so proud of how we serve our community is that when they have a need and they let us know what it is, we can give customized training to help them get there.

You know, that comes back around to what you said at the beginning, too, because you were talking about recognition because students can go anywhere, right? Like they literally can go anywhere that they want. Something like that and having a reputation for being AI forward is just an example. That's super cool that you're doing that.

Helps that value proposition. It helps crystallize the differentiation that Carroll Community College has in the area, in the region, and maybe even in the state. And it's important to stand out now, more important than I think it's ever been, because students can select to go to this online school, or go to this regional public, or go to this community college. Can you talk about how you feel the Carroll Community College brand is perceived in your area and any work that needs to be done.

You know, are you the best kept secret? Are you trying to go bigger? Right. Because we hear that a lot.

It's that we're the best kept secret in X, Y, Z. And it's like, how do we what do we do to take institutions that are doing such great work and shout it from the mountaintops? Yes. How do we do that?

So I would say to some degree, we are a well-kept secret. Whenever people are on campus and we give them a tour, they always say, oh, I had no idea that you had this program or that program. And I've driven by it for 20 years and I never even took the left turn, right? Or when I was a student here 20 years ago, you didn't have all of that.

So we're always working on our marketing and communication and trying to get the word out. But one of the things that we are doing that I think is going to make a big difference for is that we have a group called the Futures Think Tank, which is making sure that we spend a fair amount of time not only looking at what is right in front of us and what we need to do in the near term, but really, again, looking to what we need to do to make sure that we are an excellent institution long into the future.

So we're building on an excellent reputation. I mentioned earlier how great our student outcomes are and how well we are received by the community, but we can't stop there, right? We have to make sure that we are looking to what we need to be doing next. We always need to be looking to the future.

Yeah. And that's your job, right, as a president, to have eyes on the future and be in the moment, which brings me really around because we ask every president two questions to end every episode. And first really is an open mic question for you to take a minute or two and say anything else about Carroll Community College that you feel is important. Anything we missed?

Any question I should have asked you but didn't? Anything that you want to brag on? Take a minute or two, open mic. Well, let me say that leadership is really a key drug of where your institution is going.

And so one of the things that I would say is I'm so thankful for having a wonderful, wonderful executive team that supports me and more than supports me really leads us to where we want to go. So having a great team makes such a difference. And then their leadership just influences the rest of the institution. So we have an excellent culture that allows us to do great things.

And so I just need to give a shout out about that as far as an open mic. And then I would also say that no one does this alone. Institutions have all kinds of other, excuse me, organizations that are out there helping and supporting us. So I said earlier that EDUP is one of them, and I didn't mean that facetiously, but really, right, all those interviews, there's so much that we can learn from each other.

And there are Aspen Institute and Jobs for the Future, American Association of Community Colleges, the League for Innovation, like the list goes on so that we all can, if we're open to it, listen and learn. And then that helps us be better leaders. So going back to what I said about leadership being that driver, when your leaders are open and willing to embrace what needs to be done and lead the way, that just sets the tone for everyone else at the institution. Before I ask you my final one, and since you talked about leadership, I can't let it go.

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Join us July 29th through 31st in San Diego at the Hard Rock Hotel. Let's go! How to sum that up quickly. I think it comes back down to team.

I don't ever feel like I'm in this alone. I remember people giving me advice when I accepted the role of president and they were like, oh, it's such a big responsibility and you're going to feel such weight on your shoulders. And I don't. I don't have that feeling at all.

I don't ever feel like it's all on me. So I don't know. Maybe I'm really lucky in that. But I know that I have this entire institution behind me.

And that's a great feeling. You know, that that's really great to hear, because I do talk to some presidents that do feel tremendous pressure and maybe even went into a situation where they knew there was going to be that pressure for whatever reason. And are there anymore? Don't have the love for it.

Leave higher ed. And it's that the importance of fit. Right. That you found that you're in this institution that you fit in and it fits you.

And that fit means more than anything else because you can feel like you can create change. You're supported by your board. Your staff is supportive of the initiatives that you have. And it's like the perfect synergy that needs to exist in a lot of ways where you can feel like you can do things.

Because if you feel like you can't do things, I think a lot of presidents just go, you know what? I can't create change here and it's not for me. Yeah, absolutely. There are some people who just want to be a president, but I only ever wanted to be a president at Carroll.

Boy, is that a little nugget for the future for anybody looking at the industry. Where do you want to exist versus that you want the role? That's an important question for all of us to consider, because if you're going to take on that amount of work and stress and students, you got to really love it. You got to love it.

That's why we do what we do in higher education. Final question for you, Rose. You know, you're in the area. Your employers want graduates.

You know the other side of the conversation. Higher ed doesn't have as much value. The degrees are declining. Students, there's a big question of what skills are needed, what isn't.

And so there's this overwhelming question of relevance that exists. Is higher education, post-secondary education relevant is the way to exist now for students? What do we need to do as an industry to regain and maintain relevance? Great question.

I think part of the answer is in having a balance in our preparation. So I've been in higher education for a long time, and I've seen the pendulum swing back and forth different directions. And so having that pendulum not swing too far in any one direction, I think, is very smart. So, for example, balancing, as we said earlier, career preparation with inclusion of essential skills like communication and critical thinking and problem solving, balancing the incorporation of AI with the human centeredness that makes institutions like Carol stand out, and balancing that short-term planning and preparation and meeting the immediate needs with looking to the future and anticipating the future needs.

So I would say that the key to all of it is really that balance. Balance is key, right? I mean, and especially when we take, there's so much conjecture and negativity about higher education and its lack of relevance, how we have to tell the stories that we know exists in greater numbers to make sure that we help maintain that balance, right? I mean, sometimes that it's also overwhelming on the negative side.

And we're so busy in our jobs helping students. We just don't have time to tell all the amazing stories, but we have to make that time. And we have to tell that story institutionally, even by student by student to balance the scales. Well, that's absolutely true.

And so thank you for this opportunity to tell our story. I love it. Well, thank you for being here. We hope you had fun doing this with me.

Oh, we did. Good. Oh, we have a live picture being taken here. on the end-up experience.

As I'm talking, hopefully it's not posted with my mouth gaping open with all the crap that I say coming out of it. But somebody that is a very nice message, passionate about what she does, and the institution she works for is my guest today. She's your guest today, actually. Here she is.

She's Dr. Rose, man. She's president of Carroll Community College. And you've just ed upped.