The Future of Work is Putting HR at the Center of Business Strategy - Dr. Peter Fasolo, Former CHRO, Johnson & Johnson | Boston University

Announcer, this is the TechEd podcast, where we feature leaders who are shaping, innovating and disrupting technical education and the workforce. These are the stories of organizations leading the charge to change education, to rethink the workforce and to embrace emerging technology. You'll find us here every Tuesday on our mission to secure the American Dream for the next generation of STEM and workforce talent. And now here's your host, Matt Kirchner it's Matt Kirkner, the host of the TechEd podcast, the number one podcast in STEM and technical education, one of the top technology podcasts on the planet.

And because of that, we all know, we talk a lot about artificial intelligence, machine learning, advancing technologies on this podcast, we also talk a ton about the world of work and how that is changing. Today. We are going to combine those two topics with just a phenomenal guest. Dr Peter fasolo is the director of the Institute of leadership and work at Boston University.

He's also the former Chief Human Resources Officer of Johnson, and Johnson That is no small job, by the way, we're going to talk about that a little bit as well. But Peter really excited for this episode, and thanks for coming on big Matt. Thank you for having for having me. So let's, let's start with this.

I was literally just reading an article in the Wall Street Journal, as we record this yesterday, about Johnson and Johnson, where you served at the as the CHRO, as we mentioned, for quite some time, just planning on topping $100 billion in revenue this year. I mean that is, that is an insanely huge, huge company. So I want that to sit with our audience for a moment that we're talking to somebody that is, did human resource leadership at the absolute top of this profession, and tremendous amounts of insights, tremendous amounts of experience and knowledge.

You did that. You've done a ton of work in private equity, you've advised boards of directors, and now you're doing all this teaching and research, and you're speaking on the future of work. So we'd just love for you to reflect for a moment, Peter, if you would, on what your experience and how that has shaped where you are today, and why this whole idea of what the future of work is going to look like and what we do about it is so important to you? Well, Matt, I think it's appropriate you start there, because I've been very fortunate to have lots of different experiences in public companies, private equity, consulting and in all of those spheres and different industries.

I've always tried to approach my work through the lens of an organizational psychologist, as someone who focuses on leadership, and, quite frankly, looks at companies and firms through a lens of the system of all of the human resources and human capital lever levers working together from All of the inputs that you get from the marketplace, in terms of competitive dynamics and marketplace and customers shifting on you to going into the system, where you have to then plan and organize and ensure that the alignment of your systems are working together, and one of the hardest things for companies and firms to do is to gain alignment behind common objectives and goals, and then you have to measure that, obviously, in terms of outcomes, revenue, net income, cash flow, market share, innovation.

So I've always looked at the people agenda and the human capital agenda through a systems approach. In the work that I've done, I tend to take a an advisory, consultative approach, where you're a problem solver, you have to ensure that you are a student of the business and understand that your job as a chief HR officer or a human capital partner is to support the P and L leader who has a lot of issues on his or her mind. How do I drive the top line? How do I ensure that it's productive growth and and profitable growth?

How do I make sure I'm acquiring new customers? What's the optimal design? How do I pick winners? How do I ensure that the measurement of what we're doing is having having an impact.

And lastly, I'd say, I've always tried to approach my work by not particularly having any other agenda, other than to ensure that there's success of the other person across the table from me. And you always have to leave the person with a little bit more than what they're asking for, be that a board member, a CEO or PNL leader or a colleague just don't answer the question that's being asked, answer it, of course, but then leave them with additional insights and maybe things that they may not be thinking about but should be thinking about.

Absolutely, we coach people, often in businesses that I'm involved. Into to not just answer the question, but answer the question behind the question, or, you know, get get beyond what the what the immediate topic of discussion is, and that's where we can make, in a lot of cases, lasting impacts on other individuals. It's interesting. I was having lunch with a colleague within the last week, and I was talking about this year will mark.

I think it's year 32 that I've had every single month of my career, had PNL responsibility for one organization or another, and so you're constantly waking up in the morning thinking about, how do I drive revenue? How do I control fixed costs? How do I increase margin? How do I take care of customers, most important on all of those, how do I make sure that I'm you know, that I'm leading and that I'm mentoring, and then I'm caring for the people in the organization, because that's really when it all comes down to it, the absolute most important part of any organization.

So glad you brought that part of it up when you and I were chatting a few weeks ago, I mentioned that I've been in a lot of different organizations, and some of them have incredibly forward thinking, dynamic and broadly thinking Human Resources functions, and then some of them, they're just the, you know, they're viewed as the people that are just creating the rules and that you're getting in trouble with sometimes. And and you told me you wouldn't be offended if I said that, I know you're not.

There are, there are a lot of different ways of looking at at human resources, but I absolutely love the way that you think in terms of informing that individual that has PNL responsibility. And also, a lot of times when we think about human resources, we think about, you know, rules, regulations, policies. And you're like, look, we're thinking about this across the entire enterprise, and every single stakeholder in the organization, from the customer to the supplier to the team member and so on.

So I absolutely love that philosophy, you know, I would love to talk about as we think about the world of work, and you've been doing this a long time, but you we think about the next three to five years, and talk about the world of work, especially within this lens of human capital, and kind of viewing it through the holistic approach to business that you just shared with me. Well, I think Matt, as you've just laid out in your comments, there are a lot of of competing forces coming into firms and organizations today that primarily land in the human capital table that need to be navigated on behalf of the company, the board, the CEO, and I would say some of those forces look like changing expectations of the CEO and the board on the human capital leader inside the organization, with the onset and the coursing of AI going through the organization, which I'm sure we will talk about no doubt much later in the podcast, HR leaders CHROs are left with A fundamental question, an existential question on how does one create value that is unique and distinct inside the organizational system, when a lot of the base of your business in HR can reliably be done now and will continue to be done through AI and machine learning and large language models that I know we'll talk about later.

So boards and CEOs are turning to the human capital leaders and saying, I want to make sure that the people systems that are inside the company are tied to the outcomes that we care about, reputation, taking care of our employees and driving the top and bottom line issues that we have to deliver on a quarterly and annual basis. You also have the forces of technology, AI upskilling, making sure that processes are not only redesigned, but questioned from the very beginning. Why do we even need these things in the spirit of productivity and efficiency, you have changing expectations of employees who are demanding and expecting greater trust and transparency from the C suite, with regard to where is the world going?

How do I speak out on issues that are coming on the world stage? I want greater transparency in in my pay, what's what's your view on D, E and I today in a changing world. And then, of course, you have all of these geopolitical issues that are forced onto the organization, tariffs and immigration, and all of the world issues. And many, if not most, of these issues, yes, are coming across the CEO's desk, but they all have a people dimension to it.

And as world of work is changing and the future of work is changing, much of these issues have to be navigated by the CHRO and the human capital experts inside the corporation. So as we're thinking about that, and I agree with you, and it is just a crazy world that we're living in. And you know, it has been probably my entire career, but you look at the last whatever time period you want to pick, year, five years, 10 years. I mean, it just seems to get more and more intense as time goes out, time goes on.

You know, we think about those as leaders. I remember back during 911 some of the best advice I got was when you know you're managing, managing, in that case, a relatively sizeable company that I was leading responsible to a board of directors. And you've got all these personal emotions that are going on inside of you as you're seeing what happened to your to your country and to these incredible people. And I actually had a board member pull me aside and say, you know, you talked a lot today about how you feel about this.

He said you got to remember that a big part of what you do is reacting to how your teams feel, is feeling and that, you know, as emotional as this is for those of us on the board of directors, you know, you have a whole team of people you're responsible for who are also going through that, that same level of disruption, having the same questions, the same concerns, and you got to remember to, especially in those times, to back off a little bit on, you know, what's net income going to be this month, and worry a little bit more about, how are we doing as a company?

How are your team member doing as a company? How are your team members? What you have to do on that dimension is step way back, and I've often said you have to really articulate for yourself and for your organization. What kind of company do you want to be, right?

How do you care for your employees and the families that you have a responsibility for and in a world that's constantly changing and shifting all the time, the only thing that you can reliably depend on is a North Star that points to the values of the corporation. Again, a compass or a North Star is going to point you in the right direction, even though the terrain is going to shift on you, your boots are going to get muddy, and you gotta figure out how to go where the map takes you.

But the fact is, you have to be guided by enduring values, this quote, unquote, built to last mentality, that is the role of leadership, and I would argue it is one of the ultimate responsibilities of a chief HR officer in a corporation. Yeah, the Built to Last mentality, of course, Jim Collins, and some, some incredible work that he did, or you think about the I was long been a fan of Patrick Lencioni and his whole idea that, you know we, you know we have our mission and our vision and our core values, and that's really the answers to the questions, where are we going?

Why do we exist, and what attitudes, beliefs and behaviors are absolutely critical to getting us there and making is that, is that what you're getting at? I mean, it's, it's, it's about having a mission and a North Star and a vision and core values that you live day in and day out, not just putting them on the wall so somebody can look at them. And you have to, you have to work it. I was fortunate to work with a with an iconic company at Johnson and Johnson for almost 16 years, which has been in existence for well over 140 years, saw that rest on a credo that was written over 80 years ago that is as relevant today as it was when it was written 80 years ago, and quite frankly, it has guided our company through A lot of challenges over those 140 years, but it grounds you in the dilemmas that you have to work your way through.

Stay true to your patients and your customers. First and foremost, take care of your employees and make sure they have an environment where they can bring their whole selves to work, give back to your communities. And if you do those things in that order. By the way, shareholders will get a fair return.

And so it is about dilemmas. It's about trade offs, and it's about knowing that you have a have a guidepost to work your way through challenges and trade offs that, quite frankly, is the work of leadership, for sure, and it gets, you know, it's easy when you're you're turning in quarter over quarter growth, or year over year growth. When, when EBITDA is solid, when the business is performing well, when the market is treating you well, when you know when enterprise value or market capitalization is where you want it to be, those are the easy days right to be to be able to say, we're a mission driven organization.

We live by these core values when times get tough, and they do for any business, is that the hard part, and assuming So, how do you make sure that you are, in fact, staying true to that North Star when there's so many other forces that are pulling you in different directions? Well, you see it in times of crisis, as you've mentioned, financial crisis, we certainly saw. Saw it during the pandemic and other other events. And what I've observed in those inflection points is, if you're trying to figure out your culture in the time of crisis, it's too late.

People will be unmoored. And when you have these great, enduring built to last firms and corporations, really, all leadership needs to do at times of crisis is get out of the way, let your leaders lead and support them. I certainly watched that during covid At Johnson and Johnson and they they know because you have selected for it. You have rewarded for it.

You have role modeled it. You have ensured that people understand that is a non negotiable to lead with a servant leadership mentality. So when crises hit, people automatically know that they have to be guided with this, this expectation in mind, and my job as the head of HR was to support our leaders and to make sure I got out of the. Way and they could take care of our employees and their families.

That's what I mean when I say enduring. That's what I mean by North Star, not a time of crisis, not when you're trying to navigate the issues. You have to rely on it and fall back on a very, very solid foundation. A mentor of mine once told me, Peter, you know, you think about when times are good personally, and we all go through times in our personal lives when things are great and maybe when they're not so great.

You know, when your times are great personally, that's the time to fill that fill that bank up, to charge the battery, whether that is, whether that is physically, whether that's your mental health, whether that's your fitness, whether that's spiritual, spiritually, and so on, that you fill yourself up in those times, because when times get tough, that's what you're going to lean back on and draw from. In that combined with having, you know, having some sense of what truth is and what and why we're doing what we're doing, you know, if somebody's listening to this as a human being and thinking about living their own life, it just can't help but can kind of, kind of notice that what you're saying for a company, and again, $100 billion company like J and J thinking through exactly the same way, but but at scale and through the entire enterprise.

I think that's a really, really interesting point that you make, kind of sticking on this personal side that I just just referenced and thinking about the world of work, certainly artificial intelligence. You've mentioned it, machine learning technology. It's disrupting the world of work. You even mentioned that, hey, in this age of AI, where we're going to be able to use agentic AI to do a lot of perform a lot of the functions that have historically been done by people on the HR side, and certainly across the entire enterprise.

You know, how are you thinking about the world of work? About how, you know, is AI replacing jobs? Is it just changing the world of work? And if I'm an individual in the workforce, what's what's really happening on the ground that I should be thinking about?

Well, I do think we all have to pay and I, and those of us in that are in in organizations and firms, are deeply paying attention to how AI is really coursing through the organizations, and I think you always have to start with what is the task, what is the work. And before you get to tools and to solutions, I do think that one needs to be able to step back and ask oneself, what is the problem we're trying to solve? Do I even need this business process to begin with? If I do what are the minimal amount of steps one needs to take, to take the friction out and ensure that people are productive, that they are engaged and that they're doing meaningful, meaningful work.

Now that gets back to some basic principles of how to do business, process re engineering and Process Excellence. Those are classic tools and approaches that one needs to apply. It's hard. I think what's happening now, there's a, there's a strong narrative out there for the last several years where many CEOs are espousing the productivity savings they're getting from Ai, I think that's a little bit overhyped.

I think yes, there is productivity around basic administrative tasks, around financial analysis, legal analysis, market research, accounting, a lot of the basic processes and human resources. I think what's happening, though, is those jobs, rather than quote, unquote, being replaced. I think what's happening is you're seeing some efficiency. You're seeing slowing down of hiring for some of these basic entry level jobs, enlightened firms are really starting to determine what business processes need to be reassigned or re engineered, and then you start bringing out the tools of machine learning and large language models and agentic AI that is happening today.

I think a lot of the productivity that you're seeing outside of the technology sector is a result of perhaps some bloated bureaucracies and large spans and layers that have maybe just been built up over time and are needing to be streamlined anyways. And there's maybe a bit of a false narrative of connecting AI to some of those things now that being said, Do I think that AI is is radically going to transform the workplace? I do, and I do think at the end of the day, what you're left with is the role of the manager, and the critical importance of the manager, the role of judgment and problem solving and context, and the real power of having EQ and being able to collaboratively problem solve when you can free up the.

Energy of the system when AI can allow you to be more productive and efficient in some of those basic tasks. Yeah, so many interesting things that you just mentioned there, Peter, you know, starting with, you know, I agree with you. And especially coming out of covid, you know, and everybody was so focused on data and so focused on, you know, computer science, and so focused on where technology was going I think there are a lot of larger companies that packed in a lot of a lot of talent and then found themselves maybe a little bit bloated a year to three years later, we're seeing that reverberate throughout the workforce, not the least of which is young people coming out of some of those related collegiate programs and having, you know, certainly a much, much harder, more challenging situation that they're coming into from the workforce standpoint, in terms of of employment.

So there's no doubt that there was a that that was the case. You know, I reflect on the article I read, I guess now it's been about six weeks ago where black CEO Jack Dorsey said he was laying off 40% of his workforce. This was right in the Wall Street Journal. Block, of course, would be square and pay.

com it because they're being replaced by AI. And I think the market came back and said, Well, yeah, maybe, maybe you just had more people than you needed, and so that, you know, who knows how much of that is AI and how much of that is just using it as a reason to streamline the workforce, and, no doubt, not picking on that company in particular, a little bit of both of those. As you mentioned, though, this idea of figuring out what problem we're trying to solve and thinking about why we're using artificial intelligence.

I'm a huge student of lean manufacturing. Ran manufacturing companies for decades. So whether it's Joe Juran, Deming, Taishi, Ono, I mean, it doesn't matter all of these purveyors of Lean technology and really thought leaders in the world of Lean they all came back to that. They all said before we put lean to work, and we, you know, said the same thing, and it is the age of industry 4.

0 you don't do it just for the sake of doing it. You don't do a Kaizen event for the sake of doing a Kaizen event. Pick the problem, find a problem, and figure out, you know, how are we going to solve for that? And if AI and machine learning is one of the tools that we can use to make our organization more efficient.

Take some of the challenges, take take some of the waste out of a out of a process, then that's where it makes sense. So I like that. I'll also just reflect on the fact that you know, as you talk about freeing up the human brain and freeing up human talent, and if there's things that we can have AI or a machine learning platform or agent tech ai do, if we're doing this right, we're freeing up the creative capital within our organization to spend more time on maybe what truly adds value in the business, and less time on just going through some of these processes that have to get done but don't necessarily need a human brain on them.

So really, really brilliant response that you just had to that last question, which leads to me to this, though, if we're entering this age where, yes, there's still going to be a world of work where we're going through process and we're, you know, we're working through our to do list and what have you, that's not going away anytime soon, necessarily, but we're also freeing up time, and we're freeing up energy, and we're freeing up talent to work on some of those more creative aspects of the organization.

If I'm an employee working in a company and and I've got to think about, okay, how am I going to add the most value? What skills and competencies are going to be most important to me and most valuable to my employer? What should we be telling those folks? Well, I think when you're freeing up time and energy as a result of using AI in the world of work, then you are free to and have the discretion to apply that time and energy into other places.

Those other places should be around revenue, generating productivity, enhancing efforts. So if you have more time because AI has freed up your calendar because you can do administrative tasks or analyzes faster then spend more time with customers. Go out and find revenue generating opportunities so that you can enhance the growth of your unit or your organization. Spend more time with employees and make sure that they are taken care of, that you're mentoring and sponsoring them.

Make sure that if you're a manager and your spans get wider as the layers get shorter or more reduced, then your energy is freed up to ensure that the culture is healthy, that it's vibrant, that careers are thriving, and people have psychological safety to bring their whole selves to work. That's a productive use of energy and a productive use of the time. And that's where I get very optimistic about where AI and agentic AI can take us, if the leadership is setting that tone, if you allow enough experimentation where 1000 flowers are blooming, you see what's working, you shut down things that may not and then you scale up.

That's what we did at Johnson and Johnson, where we would ensure that we had proper governance while we had 1000 flowers blooming, people like to experiment. They like to innovate. And. When you see things working that you know you can scale, you shut other things down.

You put the financial and the and the people resources behind it, you scale up and you continue to iterate. That, to me, is a vibrant, energetic leader, led servant, oriented kind of culture where people will want to be part of and experiment and innovate on behalf of your customers. You know, a few years ago, I wrote a magazine column, which I do every month, and have been for 20 plus years for Gartner Business Media. And the idea was actually reflecting on this was a real experience for me.

It was when I was running I was CEO of a manufacturing company, and in our nearest plant to my house was 70 miles away, and we had several manufacturing plants. I used to joke that I could be anywhere, and people just assumed I was in a in a different plant. So I didn't even have to go to work if I didn't want to. It's a little don't let my private equity partners know that, of course, they course that was I found ways to be productive, nevertheless, but, but the point was this, 70 miles away was my nearest plant, and and I that was the one that I spent the most time at, and where our headquarters was.

And I drove up there one morning, and I, you know, the first thing I would do would be to unpack my unpack my bag, and then I was walk the floor at the beginning of the day. So I get there, and I go to pull my laptop out of my backpack, and it's not there, and I'm like, Oh, my goodness, what am I going to do with this day I don't have my laptop? I mean, I'm, you know, I'm kind of buried in this computer and what have you. And the way the magazine column went, we'll link it up in the show notes, is that throughout that day, I, you know, I went out on the shop floor and I talked to more people than I otherwise would have, and I spent time kind of just looking around and looking at corners and, you know, dwelling on topics with people longer than I typically would.

And at the end of the day, I was like, Oh, my goodness. I mean, at least once a week I should just leave my computer leave my computer at home, because all of these personal relationships and all this time I spent with other human beings was so, so valuable. And I couldn't help but reflect on that, as you were talking about in this age of technology, you know, if we're going to free up time, free up time to go see a customer, free up time to spend time with a with a team member to really and not just say, Hey, how are you doing?

And how can I help but ask deep questions and understand how you can help that person advance in their career, do their job more successfully, or so on. And I just think in this age of artificial intelligence, if we get it right, that's going to be the result is that, rather than spending more time with technology, we'll spend more time with people and in the real world in so many of us have gotten away from that. I think myself included, in some cases, it better human race, not a worse one.

If, again, if we do this right, is that? Is that a fair assessment of kind of where we are, where we're going? 100% I totally agree with that, and it's a matter of how we choose to use the extra energy and time inside these organizations that we we work in, and that's what leadership is all about. Leadership sets the tone.

Leadership creates expectations. They ensure that there's alignment behind what you've just described, Matt in terms of how people spend their time, employees will be able to hopefully get balance a little bit better, or an integrated life a little bit better. And I do know that a lot of the current narrative of AI is around job loss and concerns, and I understand that, and it's very it's very real, and it needs to be discussed and and and examined. I think over time, you will see greater productivity.

I do think and the data, the data supports the fact that hiring is slowing down for college graduates. Actually, I think the unemployment rate for college graduates is 2x than what it is on the overall unemployment we'll have to examine that. We'll have to see what. Why is that?

What's happening to some of these entry level opportunities where people could come into firms and organizations and learn and cut their teeth and understand what it means to be part of a an organizational unit. We're going to have to see where those shifts take us. But I think that's just the where we are right now, in the in the story, for sure. And to your earlier point, how much of that is, you know, maybe companies just not hiring as many people because they're they're downsizing their workforce through attrition a little bit, and how much, how much of that is actually, actual companies implementing artificial intelligence and taking work that and using it to perform work, I should say that might have otherwise been hired by people newer in the workforce, where their skills weren't quite as advanced.

And it is going to be a question we're all going to have to answer. I think the other question we have to answer, Peter and I know we've talked a bit about J and J you also, do, you know, tremendous amount of work with other organizations and advising boards of directors and so on. Everybody I talked to is at a different place in their AI journey. And so it just ask you this, I mean, if you're, if you're talking to an organization that's kind of just getting started and maybe exploring some of these questions that we've been detailing.

Here on this episode of the podcast so far, where do you tell them to start? I mean, if I'm if I'm a CEO of an organization, or if I'm a chro of an organization, and I'm like, we know we need to get going, but we're not really sure where to where to begin this journey. What's your advice for them? People are in different places, Matt, as you suggest, I think you have to have a theory of the case and a framework and understand where you want to go over what time frame and what resources you're able to deploy against deploying these these tools, but at the end of the day, the head of HR is accountable, among other things, on this topic, to ensure that the workforce is capable and have the capabilities and the skills to compete, not only now, but in the future.

There are many H HR chiefs who may not really know what they have in their workforce, they they may have anecdotes, they have they have an understanding of the experiences and the skills, but do they deeply understand the skills, the abilities, the experiences and the attributes of their workforce in such a way that they can clearly articulate to their board of directors and to their CEO and their executive team what the internal labor market really looks like. You have to start there, and it starts with understanding your global job architecture, what jobs are in, what job families, what are the skills, the attributes, the abilities and the experiences that are required to be successful now and in the future?

You then have to turn to your workforce and ask them and objectively validate their level of proficiencies in those skills. A lot of that comes out in badging and letting people train up and ensure that their skills are at a proficiency level for their not only their current job, but the jobs that they aspire to. And then it's the organization's responsibility to close the gap between what you have and what you need, and that's by job family. It's by job architecture, and that's where it gets really, really exciting to unleash the learning and the training and the interventions on how to close those gaps.

You have to be trained up in AI or machine learning or large language models or blockchain as examples, you have to ensure that you are relevant and staying relevant in the skills that are required. But it does it, you have to start with understanding what you currently have, where you need to go, and what you're able to do to close those gaps. That is a primary responsibility of an HR chief to ensure that you have the capabilities to compete in the marketplace, not only today, but for the future.

And in a lot of ways, classic gap analysis, right? Where are we going and what do we need in order to get there? What's the current state of our of our workforce, with regard to is, you suggest competencies, knowledge, skills, aptitudes, attributes and so on. And then how do we close that gap?

I think one of the things for me that's super exciting, and you mentioned badging. And, you know, we talk about digital badging from time to time here on the podcast, there's this whole idea that, you know, in the years that I went to school, you graduated with some degree. In my case, it was a business degree. And that kind of opened up a certain, you know, category of opportunities for you.

Somebody else may have been communication, someone else engineering, what have you in there was just a, you know, a job course, or a, you know, a career path that was available to you based upon that specific degree, or maybe, maybe a diploma, or what have you, you know, we're in this age now, where I call it a competency portfolio, where it's more about not just okay, I have a business degree from this university, but these are all the things I did while I was there, and then getting into the workforce and saying, all right, we're in a period of lifelong learning.

The technologies that are here today, we didn't learn a lot of this stuff 1520, years ago, and the stuff that we're going to have five and 10 years from now, we're not learning today. So we really have to build into the organization this whole idea of competency portfolios, and because two people in very similar jobs with very similar education backgrounds may have two different total sets of of competencies that they've learned over the course of their their time in the workforce.

Thoughts on that, are we on the right track, and are you seeing that in the work you're doing? I am Matt, and I think you've laid out a very good framing of this. I tend to think of this in terms of, for leaders or for employees, what you do versus who you are, and what you do is exactly what you described. It is around competencies.

So what are the. Problem solving skills that you have, or the decision making skills that you have, but it's also based on experiences. And what my observations have been over decades is that people who have the broadest level of experiences, different markets, different geographies, different functions, solving different problems, are more likely to be broader problem solvers because they've seen a lot more versus someone who has perhaps grown up in a particular silo. So that's how I think about what you do.

But you also have to think about who you are as a person. What are some of your personality characteristics? What's your openness to new experience? Are you?

Are you more extroverted or introverted? How do you think about conscientiousness in terms of doing, planning and organizing? We all have a set point doesn't mean we can't change that, but personality traits are often more fixed than competencies or experiences, and then you've got to think about what kind of person are you under stress, the so called derailers. How are you Where does your energy get directed?

Or not? So I'm a huge believer in reinforcing with people better self management and self control versus self confidence. Self confidence, to me, is an outcome, but if you're truly self managing and directing yourself by having broad levels of experience, you're going to be more competitive over time, and you'll be a better learner. You know, from time to time, somebody will say to me, you know, you listen to the podcast, and today, you had a, you know, former CHRO on yesterday, had a CEO.

Two weeks ago, you had somebody working in education, you know, how do you ask all these questions and and know what to talk about? And my joke is kind of like, well, you know, I've done so many things, and maybe it's just because I have a hard time holding down a job. But the you know, the more of those experiences you have, I think absolutely, and you start to think about, and I'm not using myself necessarily as an example, but others that I've been around who've had a wide variety of experiences and backgrounds and worked in different markets with different types of customers, different team members, different size companies, you know, maybe, maybe nonprofit government in the for profit business and so on.

The more of those experiences they get, the more well rounded they are, the better problem solvers they are, not because they're necessarily great at the scientific method, although that may be, then be part of it, but because they just see more things and they bring more learners. I mean, exactly, that's what you're saying, Matt. They're learners. And I think early in one's career, obviously you have to be grounded on a major a functional expertise.

But as time goes on and you grow in your career, you have to be more gifted at managing others. You have to have more of a strategic orientation. And then you have to have experience allocating financial, people and time resources against the direction of your unit that comes with experience once you're anchored in a particular a particular major, and we've know, because we studied it at J and J quite frequently, that the more variety in your background, the greater the likelihood that you could continue to advance in your career, because it gave me greater confidence when making a selection decision, that the decision or the judgment that I was making about you had a higher probability of success, because you could draw upon various experiences to make the decisions in situations that you haven't faced before, and show that you're flexible as well, right?

So as you, as you get to those decisions that you've got, not just this experience that's going to inform how you act and make decisions, but the fact that you've shown yourself to be flexible and dynamics, which I think is really important. Those are two really important personality traits. I reflect a little bit Peter on Todd wanick, who's the CEO of Ashley Furniture Industries, a great friend of ours, was on, and I asked him, you know, what do you look for when you when you're looking for people that are adopting AI in your in your manufacturing operations and in your retail operations and and his work, he gave me one word.

He said, I just look for curious people. And I thought that was, that was great. We had Barbara humpton, who's the former president and CEO of Siemens USA, on, and her line was, if you have curiosity and initiative, the world is yours. And I just, I love that way of thinking, because I think you're right.

It's certainly your hard skills and your background and your education and in your formal training that's important, but it's also finding a job and finding a career that aligns well with who you are as a person, and we can all I had somebody tell me, and you just kind of mentioned it. You know, number one, most of our personality traits, believe it or not, are pretty hardwired by the time we're seven or somewhere between seven and 11 years old. And it doesn't mean that we can't morph a little bit over time, but he said, kind of who you are is pretty well wired up by the time you're in fifth or sixth grade.

And so the and you can act outside of those personality traits for certain periods of time, and the more energy you have. The more you're able to do that, but in the end, you always gravitate kind of back to who you are as a person. And so I like the way that you frame that up and putting the WHO YOU ARE after that. And I think as companies are looking at kind of creating the next and organizations in general, creating the next generation of talent, they've all got to ask themselves, do I find those personality traits and experience inside?

Do I go outside just a few thoughts on if I'm if I'm scaling a business, if I'm building my team, should I be nurturing my own talent? Should I be looking for talent outside of the organization to bring in? And how do I balance that? I think the way I always try to balance that, Matt in terms of making those decisions, is, first and foremost, have a talent philosophy that guides you.

Have a set of guiding principles that that guide your thinking. We've just been talking about some, which is, you know, do you want broad based experiences? For example, do you need technical experts? What selection decision are you making in the context of the team?

Because the team brings a skill set and experiences that could complement maybe some experience gaps of a leader or a manager you're putting into the role. So you have to look at the selection decision in its entirety based on the principles that are important to your firm and to your organization. You then have to ensure that you have programs and processes in place that nurture talent. So how do you select and assess and develop leaders in the organization?

J and J, again, is a is a machinery of leadership development that has a bias towards the inside. That doesn't mean we always select on the inside, but I would always root for the insider to get the job, but I would need to validate my my bias by ensuring that I compared and benchmark the individual against what's possible in the marketplace, I always would put a premium in addition to performance and learning agility, on being able to carry on the values and the culture of our great company.

So that's why I was always rooting for the Insider. But I needed to validate my, my my desires along the way. And once you select someone or moving them through the system, you have to constantly be top grading, constantly looking, is Matt better than Peter under? What circumstances?

What are Matt's gifts over Peter's what kind of character does he have? How does he How does he work under stress? Performance is pretty easy to evaluate. I can know if you've met budget or what your customer retention is, or what your market share is, the harder thing and the more discipline that's required is around things regarding learning agility, making sure that you're gifted with people, that you're able to work with differences around you and harness the power of the team, making sure that the range of experiences that we were just talking about are accretive to your good judgment.

I want to know about your character. I want to make sure that not only can you perform, but that you're kind, that you care about others, that you keep raising the bar in ways that are supportive of others. Those are character dimensions as well as performance dimensions. So yes, you have to do all those things, but you need a philosophy and then a set of processes and top grading along the way to ensure you're making the best decisions for for everyone involved at the end of the day, you are making a prediction of someone in a new situation, and you want them to be able to demonstrate judgment in ways that are consistent with their character in situations that are often full of stress.

And anybody who's running an organization, anybody who's responsible for human resources, for hiring, for training, for promoting, what have you. I want to make sure that what you just said, Peter, really, really hits home, because I think you made an interesting point. And as you were saying that, I was thinking through my head, you know, how many times in the businesses that I'm involved with, are we over focusing on just the performance by the data or by the KPIs or the results and so on, and saying, Well, you know, your revenue grew by x, or we retained this number of customers, or gross profit margin hit this goal, or didn't hit this goal, and really putting that is like 80 to 90% of the review, and then this other like five or 10% is like, all right, who are you as a person?

What character traits do you have? Do you have those you know, enduring, to use your word from earlier in the discussion, character traits that are going to carry you through the challenges that might face you in your current position? Or your new position. And I think that's a really good lesson, especially as we go through this age where there's so much uncertainty relative to the technologies we've talked about, relative to the disruption of those technologies, that making sure we have people that really that their moral fabric, that their character, that who they are, that how they're wired as a person.

It certainly doesn't mean that the performance aspects aren't important. Important. Of course they are, but but that you're also looking at who that human being is and how well they're going to succeed in the organization over really well time, really well said Matt and I do think, given our earlier part of our conversation on on AI and what's going to happen as it continues to go through our organizations and firms, it puts even more of a premium on these character dimensions, on this EQ, on this care and trust, because performance will be more easily evaluated.

It will be more objective in nature. But leadership and performance is much broader than just the numbers. It's not just the what it's the how, absolutely, it's not just the what it's the how. And that's a lesson for me as I'm thinking through and I'm involved with, you know, at the board level, and also the leadership level with a bunch of organizations and and this is at least for a lot of those companies, it's review time, right?

So you've got your your final results are in the tax report, tax returns are filed. You know how the business performed and and now you're thinking through, you know what? You know what, whatever your compensation increases in the budget have been approved, and now it's like, all right, how am I going to allocate them? How are we going to coach our team members for the next 12 months?

And as we enter that phase in a couple of our businesses, what you just said, to be honest, was a great personal reminder for me of things that I probably thought about a new but needed to be reminded of. So Thanks for Thanks for that. And I know our audience will appreciate those, those insights as well. Just a quick question on kind of the upskilling aspect of of the Human Resources role.

And you know, we've talked about the gap analysis. We've talked about figuring out where we are, where we need to be, and how we need to solve for you know what sits in between when you start to think about the role of upskilling, for lack of a better term, lifelong learning, which is more important than it's ever been. In my opinion, I'm sure you would believe that that same thing. How do we need to be thinking about that?

Do we build our own training programs? Do we go outside? Is it formal education? Is it badges and competency portfolios as we discuss, how do we need to be thinking about the upskilling aspect of the work?

Well, I think every boardroom and every C suite has a similar dilemma. Matt on this particular topic, they're all trying to determine, do they have the skills and capabilities to compete in the future as they evolve their their businesses, I'd much rather try to win on the inside than on the outside. That doesn't mean you don't go to the outside when you have to. Of course you do.

You have to bring in new capabilities or new skill sets, but I do think if we're all chasing a limited pool of skill sets or capabilities in the marketplace, why wouldn't one want to take full advantage of the internal labor market that you have inside Your organization to invest behind them, to upskill them, to ensure that they're competitive if they're with you, or even if they're not, and you want to invest in their professional development along the way. So I'd always want to try to win on the inside for those reasons.

And they know your culture. They can, they can really continue the journey of your values based approach to the way you're working inside the organization. Now, I do think an HR chief has a very, very important responsibility in this journey they have to think about, I would say, three broad areas. One is the talent, as we're suggesting, what's the workforce needs?

What's my labor need to be? Where do I need to buy talent? Where do I need to build talent? Where do I need to borrow talent?

In terms of contingent, how do I think about my bots and my agents? So an HR chief has to be thinking about what's the broad talent and workforce mix that's required, and by the way, informed by the strategic direction of the firm. They then have to be thinking about the organization, the whole is better than the parts. In other words, alignment, team, effectiveness, and the HR chief has a unique responsibility to make sure the organization is working better than their individual parts.

And then, of course, as we've been talking about, they have to ensure that there's enduring leadership. That's what culture. Is all about. So yes, upskilling and AI meets those talent needs, but they're encompassed within a large organizational context and a larger leadership context.

At the end of the day, the HR chief needs to run their function. Yes, there needs to be it needs to be a good employee experience. You need to take friction out. You need to make sure your net promoter score and your cost to serve is competitive.

But then beyond that, because AI is so prevalent in the human capital agenda. Now, as we've been saying, You're You're left standing with, how does the human capital function truly add value that's unique in with respect to the workforce? Well, you better be very, very good at picking winners and leaders in your organization. You should be very gifted, not only at strategy execution, but strategy formation.

When is the last time the CEO called in the HR chief and asked him or her, should I do this acquisition? Should I divest? What's your unique point of view on strategy? Yes, you have to execute against that strategy, but you should also be striving to be an equally contributing member of the team on strategy.

And then I think what's also unique about the HR chief is he or she has to make sure that the top team is aligned, that there's very little daylight between functions and the value chain of the business. When teams are misaligned, it creates enormous problems inside the system. Things slow down. People are wondering how they should navigate issues, and then, of course, the HR chief needs to at least lead, or CO lead, the upskilling efforts of their organization.

If they can't do those things, Matt, then you're left really asking the question, Why do we exist? What's the unique value of the function? And I think that's what the next several years requires us to bear down on. And I think that's really good advice, Peter, not just for somebody in an HR chief role, but also for a board a CEO that's relying on their HR team and so on that.

You know your expectations we I say oftentimes, you get the as a leader, you get the behaviors you exhibit, expect and tolerate. Your expectations of the people in those roles really need to step up is as we're advancing into this new space, which is going to create opportunities for the CHROs that can, that can excel in that area, and probably some challenges for those that have a hard time doing so. Is that fair to say? I think that's right.

I think that's right. And it comes back to what we've been saying, Be a lifelong learner. You have to be agile, you have to ensure you surround yourself with people who are better than you, and you harness the collective effort of the team to get to a solution that one individual, by himself or herself can't get to really, really well put. And we've got time, I think Peter for two last questions.

They're they're questions I love asking every single guest here on the TechEd podcast. And so looking forward to to hearing your particular perspectives on this. And we talked when you and I met a few weeks ago about your education, background and pathway and and I always say that regardless of what somebody's path was, and you've got a very impressive pedigree, of course, people can check that out. The truth of the matter is that we all have aspects and opinions of one sort or another on on our education journey, and things that maybe could be done better or different.

Is there something that you think about in terms of education in general, or maybe even in specific, that would interest or surprise our audience a little bit. I think what I've learned over time on this topic, Matt, is to really understand the difference between someone who's educated versus someone who's exposed to education. Just because you're exposed to education doesn't mean you have a unique monopoly on what the answer is. I look for people, regardless of the educational journey that they are, have been on.

Are they open to new ideas? Do they listen to learn? Have they do they have a demonstrated track record of taking risks. Do they collaborate?

Are they solution oriented? And there are people who can be educated in so many different walks of life and ways of life, and I'm learning that more and more as I'm back in an academia and back in an institute, I really, really want to know is someone educated, no matter how they may have gotten that education. Awesome. So, so way more than just whatever diploma you can hand on, hang on your wall, or, for that matter, what shows up in your LinkedIn profile.

It's about, you know, Are you educated? Are you knowledgeable? And are you experienced? And absolutely love that?

Got Time for one last question here, for. For Dr, Peter fasolo, before we close up shop on the TechEd podcast, I want to take you back in time, Peter. We take you back to being a young, 15 year old young man, sophomore in high school. Maybe give or take, and if you could give that young individual one piece of advice, what would you tell that young Peter fasolo, well, I think Matt, what I've what I've been reflecting on and learning is to really step back and ask yourself, what Who are you on your best day?

I mean, really think about who are you on your best day? What brings you joy? Life is not a dress rehearsal. Life is more about doing than being someone.

So try to get better every single day, because what I've learned over decades is a lot of issues that occur have their roots in anxiety. And what's the root of anxiety uncertainty? And so if you can reduce your uncertainty, and again, come back to the point I was making earlier, and ensure that you have as much self management as possible. Master your topic, have relatedness to your to those around you understand your autonomy and your voice along the way, because at the end of the day, your beliefs impact your feelings, which drive your behaviors.

So really think about who you are on your best day, and ask yourself at the end, if you had no social comparisons, if you had no expectations placed on you, what would you do and crowd out the judgment of others and go for it, because life is too short to be stuck in somebody else's expectations. When I was about that age, a couple years older, I had this experience. I don't need to go into it in detail, but it was reached to a point where i i just recognized that as long as I was, you know, happy with, pleased with, satisfied with the person that I was, the decisions that I made.

It didn't really matter what anybody else thought of me. It doesn't mean that it doesn't matter what you do or what people think, if they think you're, you know, a slime ball, because you are one, that's a problem, right? But I mean, as long as you know who you are and why you're doing the things you do that's really all that matters and and that's the most liberating day of your life, I would tell you, is when you make that decision for yourself, and you have to make that decision every day, because none of us completely free ourselves from that.

But I just think that's absolutely beautiful, beautiful advice, Peter, and just a beautiful conversation we've had today on so many different topics. Dr, Peter for solo director of the Institute for leadership and work at Boston University, and former CHRO of Johnson and Johnson Peter, this has been so much fun. Really appreciate you coming on, Matt. Thank you for your time.

I really enjoyed it, and I know our audience did as well. We'll take those show notes, and we will put those up at TechEd podcast.com/fa solo, that is TechEd podcast.com/f A, S, o, l, o, you'll see all of the things we talked about here on the podcast today, on those show notes.

And then, of course, always come find us on social media. Whether you're on Facebook, you're seeing us on YouTube, you're on Instagram, you're on tick tock. It doesn't matter. We're all over social media.

Come find us. Say hello, and we will see everybody next week on the next episode of The TechEd podcast. Until then, I am Matt Kirkner, your host. Thanks for being with us.

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