S5 E8 | Dissecting the Future of Online Retail, Scaling Technology, & Leadership Philosophy with Rohit Kaila, Wayfair

Speaker A: Foreign,

Speaker B: Uh, at the Tech Factor by Purple Quarter, the podcast that's from our end. And today we have Rohit in the house. Thank you so much for making the journey. I know you had to really spend almost an hour and a half in traffic, but thank you so much for coming over to our office, Rohit.

Speaker A: My pleasure to be here.

Speaker B: Awesome. So just so the audiences know about Rohit, um, so I know you did your BS, uh, uh, BTech CS and of course your MSCS as well, and then started as a member of technical staff and then moved on to, uh, doing multiple other roles in companies. And you did a startup stint as well in 2006 if I'm correct, in the US for 2 odd years or 3 odd years and then moved back onto Yahoo, Intuit and then Walmart. Now Wayfair, I hope I got the order right. So Rohit, tell me a little bit about. Because these are not just shift in companies but you took a risk in 2006, uh, with a startup and then you also moved different kinds of domains. So how has it been for you? Could you talk about your journey a bit, please?

Speaker A: Sure. I think my perspective, I think domains are a little overrated.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Um, good techie is a good techie. Is a good techie. They tend to adapt to different domains very, very quickly. And I'll give you an example. When I was joining Yahoo, uh, right after my startup, I was joining Yahoo and I got a job there and my um, manager there who was also the center head, he said, come in and you'll run advertising. And I had like, you know, I called him frantically before these things. I want to have one last conversation with you.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: I said, are you really sure what you're doing? I know I cracked the interview, but you really want to hire me for advertising? I don't know. ABC of advertising. And his response always stuck with me. And his response was, the reason why I'm getting you is because you haven't done advertising before.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Because I want somebody to look at it from an external perspective and transform it. And I came from a telecom background and everything else. And he said, we've done our homework. You come in. And I ran advertising at Yahoo for five years, learned it from scratch. And I believe that because I was not from that field, it helped me contribute a little bit to that space. Um, so I personally feel that sometimes when you're not from the domain, you can look at it from a very different perspective, um, and then actually contribute and enhance that domain in some sense. If you're Only in the domain you continue to keep doing the same thing. Having said that, domain has its space as well. If you're in a leadership position where you're doing strategic discussions and decisions, having domain experience is very important. Um, if you're a product manager and you're running a certain aspect of it, some, sometimes domain can be important. So I don't think domain is absolutely not important. It is, but it's, I think little overrated on the company's part of it that you talked about. I'm a little bit of a startupish transformation kind of a person. Right? Um, somebody once told me and good friend and it stuck with me, he said, never join a company which is doing really well because you'll transform it and ruin it. Always go to places where there are problems because that's what I love doing. So the way I look at it is that if I'm in a startup, it's a startup. If I'm in a large company, I try to run a startup within a large company. And from places like Bell Labs, which was best research institute in its life, uh, to startups that I ran, teeny WEGEY Companies of 10, 20 people to something like a fortune, one company that I worked for, it didn't make much difference to me personally because I believe that I was able to bring that same startup culture to each of these areas. And that's what keeps me exciting, excited about whichever organization that I'm part of. So that helped me navigate this path in my career in some form or fashion.

Speaker B: So tell us about the technology. Right, so I'm sure that you know, you worked worked in these companies like it was a startup, but how about adoption towards technology? Because startup, if you see naturally is more dynamic towards adopting to anything that's new, larger, the company becomes a little more tougher. So, wanted to hear your views. How did it really work out for you?

Speaker A: So if you look at it right that in a startup m, it's very important because you're starting something from scratch. You'll probably go with the latest tech and figure out what you're trying to do. How do you actually move things forward? Um, so people tend to believe that they're using much more latest tech in terms of what they're trying to do. But then when you're in a larger company, say a large multinational that has billions of dollars in revenue, the scalability of what you're doing becomes very important. And a great engineer is somebody who can merge the two, who can not just use technology, but also figure out how to scale it? Because I have seen a lot of startups where people come in, use really fantastic tech, but just don't know how to scale. So as a result of which they go very well. And then the moment that D day comes, they tend to falter. Right. The startups that really transform are the ones who actually are able to get through that hump and build something really scalable on the other side. What happens in large companies is people tend to stick around with old tech just because it was working and they don't have the energy in them to go back and say, oh, let me transform it. Uh, if you can merge the two, that's the best space that you will be in. Um, again, an example from one of the companies that I've worked for, a large retailer, um, we are building stuff that was a large workflow system and I hired this awesome engineer, uh, architect who came in and fundamentally transformed and rewrote that entire system, which was probably 600 people in that organization, rewrote it in a period of a year, year and a half to build one of the most scalable systems that eventually served tens of billions of dollars in revenue. That is the merge of a startup aspect and a large company that you can bring together and you can create magic.

Speaker B: Taking a cue from what you just said, right? And this is for all the engineers who just listened to what you said, how do you merge the two almost every time? That is, figure out the latest technology that's working and also solve for scale. If I was an engineer, how do I do both?

Speaker A: So look at it going back to the fundamental principles of computer science.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: If you focused on that, you'll realize that that teaches both aspects of it. You cannot use technology if you don't know how to scale it. Most likely you're doing it in the wrong way. You're retrofitting, you're probably picking a technology that is not suited for the right thing. It's amazing that, um, people used to say this, and this is a very interesting anecdote, goes way back to Bell Labs days. People believe that C was invented for job security. Why? Because in C you can write code and a lot of people don't do C. C today, it was written in a way in which it is impossible to read code. So you can never fire the person who wrote the code. Switches were written in C in those days because that language was invented in Bellads. So essentially, if you take that tech and use it for the wrong purpose, you are neither serving the tech nor the scale. So if you are able to make sure that you use the technology for the purpose for which it was built, it's not actually a dichotomy to have two different things. It's the same thing. Because if you use the right tech for the right solution, it'll always scale.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: It's a choice.

Speaker B: Wow. Interesting point. I'll keep that in mind the next time someone asks me about it. So Rohit, now um, we've talked about your flashback. Let's talk about your current role that you're playing and you're actually taking care of retail, uh, domain. And uh, let's talk about the technology that we can see at Wayfair. What are you looking at? Building? What can we as uh, people from the outside expect?

Speaker A: So Wayfair essentially, um, is in retail, but our core is the home. So what we say is we let you build beautiful homes. Now all retail is not made equal. And some of our able competitors may believe that you can have the smallest parcel delivered in the same way a sofa is delivered. We don't believe that. We believe that, um, in order for you to excel yourself in a space in which you are building beautiful homes and you're selling furniture, you're selling home stuff, you have to have very special mechanisms, not just from a customer experience, all the way from customer experience to uh, supply chain to delivery. And we basically bring all of this together in a very unique way in which we can do online home furnishing for the customer so they have the best experience at picking the furniture or picking the home goods to the mechanism of our ability to have a very effective large parcel and small person supply chain system for us to be able to deliver it and finally have a mechanism to serve our customers in the best possible way. Now a person who sells you a book can also claim that they can do that. We believe we can do it better than most because we are able to bring it all together. And that's really the beauty of building what we build at uh, Wayfair.

Speaker B: So, uh, are you saying that you guys are also using uh, a lot of ar. Uh, because if you're saying that if I can from online, if I can pick furniture, because for furniture you also need to know if it'll fit your space. Right. Um, and because, and if it's about furnishing the wall wallpaper, then I would like to know if it'll suit my, let's say the flooring. Right. So how does that work? I'm just deeply curious. How does that work from a technology standpoint uh, so if you look at

Speaker A: the way tech has evolved on the customer side, it's amazing, right? Um, retail was built in a mechanism, or online retail was built in a mechanism to say, oh, this is the experience you get in a physical store. How can we actually replicate it in an online world?

Speaker B: Got it.

Speaker A: What I think we are trying to say is that, yes, we do that, but at the same time, we believe what we can give you in the online world is maybe even superior to what you can do in a physical space. And I'll give you an example. We recently did a, uh, experimental launch, which we also announced publicly, where you can take a picture of your room and then pick furniture, saying, I like mid, uh, century furniture. So it'll pick, uh, furniture from our database or our set of available products and show how it actually fits into your room. And you can visualize your room. And this is without any special gadgets. And imagine when we have special gadgets, what all can we do? Now compare that to a physical store where you can never get that experience. If you go to buy, you'll see a sofa, and then you are like sort of doing a mental match to say this, this is, I think, how it'll look like in my room, and somebody is measuring it out for you. But now in an online world, you can actually create a more superior experience than a physical experience. And the moment you do that, we believe a lot more people will then get convinced to move to the online world because now they'll have a, uh, superior customer experience. And as gadgets start becoming more available, like we have to see next year when Apple comes out with its, uh, uh, headset, how that transforms those transformations and technology starts to keep, keep pace with it. Five years, ten years from now, you'll have a completely different user experience than you had. I mean, think about it. It was just 17 years ago that the first iPhone showed up.

Speaker B: Correct?

Speaker A: And can anybody imagine phones without a touchscreen today transformed? So imagine what next 10 years can hold in front of consumers in terms of the experience that that can be created.

Speaker B: Right, sure. So when you look at, um, you know, the domain that you are dealing with, I think the biggest, um, piece that I love discussing about is supply chain, because somehow that has not been completely structured. Well, of course, I'm talking more about the Indian ecosystem versus the US Right. So would you happen to talk about what from a supply chain has changed because you've been in the retail side, not just home, but also on the other side for a long period of time, how have you seen that evolve through technology?

Speaker A: Again, Wayfair doesn't operate in the Indian context, but I have reasonable amount of uh, thought process on the Indian system. So let me talk about that a little bit. Um, I think India is like um, one of the best places where supply chain transformation will happen in the next many years to come.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Because we are probably the most complex country in terms of everything that is there. We have rural areas, we have tier three, two one cities, uh, we have a fast evolving infrastructure that is coming through in the country. We have a very diverse and very different kind of um, uh, customers that are spread across and at the same time we have a much more decentralized mechanism of suppliers as well. So I feel the next five to 10 years will be a, it's probably the best area to invest in. I mean, and we know the past too. I mean Flipkart for example, um, fundamentally came into existence because of E Card and it transformed how E Car actually did delivery. And they are today one of the largest, uh, retailers and fantastic innovation. But what holds true in the next five to 10 years is even bigger. And it's not just going to happen in the private space. Actually it's going to happen. Look at government. Right. The amount of effort government is putting in the entire Gati Shakti, um, initiative, uh, that the government has is transforming infrastructure and logistics at the largest level. Now private players will now ride on top of it and build a mechanism where you can build, bring not just the best suppliers from the remote corners of the country to the cities, but also take the fact that you can build best product selections from the cities and all the areas to the smallest part of the country.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: So I would say it's a heaven for anybody who wants to actually have a fantastic business sense in that area because that transformation is unique. Now we've learned a lot from the US and the west and other countries which have done that. But then we have our own mechanisms of how do you actually take that learning and adapt here? And I'm not. And we haven't even touched delivery yet which is completely transformative in this space. So if you put it all together, um, you'll see in the next five to ten years probably some amazing startups come in and build fantastic amount of wealth because they would master this area.

Speaker B: Wow. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. So when, you know, I'm just going to go back to that first part where you said, uh, when there was this person who picked you for ads that you had never done and You've generally picked things where you're not done. So how do you actually multiply that from a tech ecosystem standpoint? Because you're learning so many new things, but how do you put them to best use today, if you can?

Speaker A: I think there are two things that are very important for people to understand. Number one, if you want to be a great, uh, technologist, you should always keep pace with the changing tech because tech transforms itself every few years. Um, a lot of the core fundamentals remain the same. So I always tell students when I go to universities, learn the basics. Um, core remains the same, but the technology evolves every five years. So you have to constantly keep pace with the latest tech.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: But then at the same time, don't be obsessed with the latest tech because not everything fits into everything that is out there.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So as a result of it, your choices of what you want to do should be informed with the space and the problem statement that you have. But the knowledge is important. So if I have to rate the importance of learning latest tech from a scale of 1 to 10, it should be always 10.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: Don't ever. Otherwise you become a dinosaur and then you'll just die. The most important aspect is you have to be 10 there, but don't be 10 and saying, oh, this is a later step. Let me apply that. Mhm. Because there, the choices have to be very dependent on the specific domain specific problem statement that you're trying to solve. So when you do that, you're probably in the best place.

Speaker B: Sure. So, um, I have another question that uh, the team has also noticed that you have on your LinkedIn, uh, which talks about, which says, I feel mine has been a true tech love story. Yeah, I wanted to quote exactly what you had written. So tell us how this is. Uh, this sounds a little bit like, you know, the Bollywood movies. But I really want to know when you say this, what do you really mean? Because I did see the journey that you've gone through. So could you talk about why you feel that you're a winner? True tech love story.

Speaker A: I think, um, it's interesting when I'll go back to my 10th grade. In 10th grade I had a tutor who was, uh, helping me in mathematics and I don't think I needed any help there. So we spent most of the time talking about his interest, which was electronics. So he started building electronic circuits. He taught me how to build the first electronic circuit in those days. And I just fell in love with the whole aspect of building those circuits. And I used to stand in line with, in these, you know, in, in uh, in one of the markets in, in Delhi, trying to buy smallest of components so I could build all of that stuff. And I loved that to death. And my project in my school was actually building some of these circuits.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And then first time I saw a computer, I just naturally sort of fell in love with the computer. And um, and I remember in college, uh, and you know, when I went to university in bachelor's, it was not very common to own computers. They were pretty expensive. And I remember saving a lot of money from my, uh, from my pocket, uh, money and made a first business case in front of my parents who say, this is how much I'll give, this is how much you give and can we buy a computer? That's how I ended up buying a computer. And then in college I actually merged my two interests and I built one of the first, uh, what I believed was a card that goes into a computer. Nowadays you don't see those, but those large computers where you build those cards. So I built that and put some, what we call static RAM into that and built what I believe must have been one of the first solid state disks which ran so much faster than the floppies of those days. And it was just pure love for tech that I did that. And interestingly I carried that card with me when I went to the US for higher studies. And I was in this running for a grant from my professor and he had a couple of students he could give that grant to and funding was very important. You come from a middle class family, you don't have all the money to pay for your masters. And um, he asked me, what did you do in university? So I said, instead of talking anything else, I luckily had that card and showed it to him. He looked at it and said, you built it yourself? So yeah, and he tested me a little bit on it and I got that grant.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Right. And my relationship with that professor was so deep that that was the first company I joined his startup. I still am in touch with him. He was probably one of the most brilliant persons I've known in my life. So imagine the theme that you start somewhere else and you end up in a place where you probably saw some really great tech and great stuff in your life and your career built out of that. Totally unplanned. But because I loved what I did, uh, I think I just naturally adapted to it. It was just fun. Um, I never planned it. A lot of people plan their careers. I didn't. I just do what I Love. That's what it is.

Speaker B: Wow. So interesting, Rohit on this one. So just wanted to check with you. What kind of a leader are you? Because I haven't worked with you, so I can. I'm allowed to ask.

Speaker A: I don't know if you should ask me this question. You should ask people I have worked with.

Speaker B: But what's your style like? What do you generally like doing as a leader?

Speaker A: See, I would, I would say two or three things are very critical in my, in my style of working. Number one, I believe I can build and collect some of the best talent in the industry and bring them together.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Uh, I always am a strong believer that everybody in your team should be smarter than you. So if you're not smarter than me, you can't work for me right now. It's a different task how I convince them to work for me, because to work for a boss who's not as smart as them. But I think collecting the best talent and bringing people in who are really smarter than you is the best way because that's your best way to learn as well. So a lot of people believe as leadership, you should bring people where you are the smartest person in the room. I personally think they are the first leaders because when you are the smartest person in the room, you're not growing anymore. So if you're not the smartest person in the room, you bring in the best talent and then you can grow. The second part, I think, is that you enable these leaders to perform. So a lot of leaders are micromanagers. They love take my authority. I have to do approved before you do anything. I am the other way around. I believe that I enable some of. Once you hire great talent, you set them free, you let them learn, you let them actually lead, um, and contribute and help in the space in which you, um, can help in. I think that brings in a very, very strong element of being able to build a team that can really, uh, do wonders. Uh, and I think the third part that is very important for a leader is to understand the business context of what you're doing. Um, I worked for a company, Yahoo, which is probably one of the best tech companies of its time, probably had the best techies and probably the worst business sense, um, because we were falling 20% in a market that was growing 20%. You have to be a genius of a different kind to be able to do that. So very important to not just be great in technology, but learn it with the business sense that you're operating. So that becomes very critical and the last part that I would say is that in any company you work for, make sure you understand the culture of that company. A m lot of people came back and said, oh, I come from XYZ and this is what we used to do there. Great. Now you're not in that company, you're in a different company. So if you can learn and imbibe the culture of the company and combine that with the experience that you have to enhance that culture, that you probably will end up being a great leader.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Some elements that I use. Wow.

Speaker B: Uh, nice. Interesting. So what is the advice you have for engineers watching the show? You know, because, uh, these could be people who are applying for their first jobs or during this market turbulence, looking for a job. Yeah. So what is your advice for them?

Speaker A: I think one of the things that I said earlier is very important when you are in university, make sure you understand and learn the basics. Um, like I said, I've always ran university programs, so I'll not name the university. But there was a very, um, very elite university. I went and I was interviewing one of the students and this person comes to me and says, oh, I'm this, I'm that and everything. So, okay. I went back to some really basic computer science questions and this person was like, fish out of water.

Speaker B: Oh Lord.

Speaker A: And, uh, I have solved this Google challenge. I have done this. And I'm like, you don't know what this means. And I think he was taken aback. Right. And so was I. I didn't actually hire him. I actually didn't hire anybody. And when I went to the director of that university and gave feedback and said, you're not teaching computer science to these students. So what is happening is that in this. And I think all these Google challenges and coding challenges, I personally think have dumbed people down as a result of which they're not understanding the basics.

Speaker B: Sure. Ah.

Speaker A: So when you are in university, understand the basics. Do not just focus on this shiny object that you can do that. And I think it's same for the companies that they should not just lure people into these shiny objects a both sides problem. So understand and learn the basics when you're a student. When you go back to workplace, there is no better example than what the CEO of uh, of Walmart, Doug McMillan once said, in all hands. Uh, and it is, you know, I put it on my profile as well. Um, he was holding this all hands. And there's this intern who raised his hand and said, how can I be in your place one day? You know, hats off to the person for asking that question. And Doug, being the great leader that he is, uh, who actually rose as an intern in Walmart and eventually became the CEO of the Fortune 1 company, said, Three things are the only things that I have followed in my career. Number one, no matter what job is given to you, do a great job. M. Some people say, ah, you know, if you give me a complex problem, I'll do a great job. This job is below my dignity. No, whatever is given to you, do a great job. Number two, always do more than what is given to you. So don't just do enough and get by, because that's kind of how everybody is looking around you and saying, I can give you no responsibility. Number three, don't be this lone warrior. So I'm the smartest guy you know? Yeah, sure, I can do everything. Always work as a team, because that multiplies your effect. And he said, these are the only three things I followed in my life. And I reached here.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: So I would advise everybody that, you know, just. And I keep repeating it like, you know, um, they say repetition, uh, doesn't ruin a prayer. CEO of Intuit used to say that. And I always remember it. Just keep doing that.

Speaker B: Wow. Wow. I'll keep that in mind. Rohit. Those were, like, really wise words. And I'll keep that in mind before we end the show. Do you have any, uh, few words to say? Anything that you want to share with the audience? Please feel free to.

Speaker A: Um, I think the most important part I would share is that we are in a very transformative world. Right. The number of opportunities around you are immense. Um, just have the strength to go and grab them. And don't just blindly follow established norms, because people who do that do not transform. Um, people who understand those norms and then have the strength in them to actually, uh, challenge them and change them are the ones who are going to essentially, uh, take the world by the storm. Right? And you don't have to be in a startup or a founder to do that. You can do it in any place you're in. You can be in the, you know, in the biggest company possible and still transform. And you can be in a startup and still be a really boring person who doesn't do any change. Right? So please look at opportunities and keep your eyes and ears open around what is happening. And, um, the world is not going to look the same as it is today, five years from now and ten years from now. And history shows us that. So have that energy in you to be able to do that.

Speaker B: M. That's what I would not know about anybody else. But I'm superbly feeling the energy in the room. And I'm sure that your team is as enthusiastic as you are. You do rub off that energy, uh, to other people. So I'm sure they're also very excited to solve all the problems, whether they are complex or simple, with you, Rohit. So try that.

Speaker A: That's how we are building great companies, I'm sure.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for being on our show. It was really, really, really a pleasure to have you on our show. I really enjoyed this conversation thoroughly. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: Thanks so much. It's lovely to be here.