AI, Consumer Behaviour, Fintech Regulation, & more with Dr. Eduard Müller

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Tech Factor. Today's guest has won many hats, from shaping policy in Austria to steering European financial regulation. He's someone who's navigated politics, policy and regulation and I'm sure with absolute ease. We're really thrilled to have you on our show, uh, Edward Muller. So welcome, uh, on the Purple Quarter podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker B: Thank you Rupa for having me here.

Speaker A: Thank you. So I want to actually begin with uh, something really interesting. I think most of us are watching what's happening in the entire space and what we see is Austria isn't actually a Silicon Valley, but you guys have produced some of the most remarkable fintech success stories. So what do you think that when it's a smaller regulated market, what are the advantages that you have, uh, that founders in maybe larger competitive ecosystems? Ms. So what do you think works for you guys better?

Speaker B: Yeah, firstly, you're absolutely right, Austria isn't Silicon Valley. But uh, I'm asking myself, or it's a question, but that's maybe, or maybe it's a thesis that's maybe not necessarily a disadvantage because in fact when you look more closely we can see that Austria, uh, we offer some really structural advantages. Advantages. Looks like that founders in hyper competitive ecosystems very often. Ms. Let me start with regulation because I'm regulator for many years in my career. Uh, because in fintech, regulation isn't a barrier. In fintech sector regulation from my point of view, it's part of the product. For example, in Austria we have since 2020, that's the time when I entered the Financial Market Authority. Austria has had its own regulatory sandbo launched by the fma, the Financial Market Authority. And I think that's significant because it means that fintech founders, they can test innovative models under real market conditions with ongoing dialogue and oversight from regulators. So I think that level of early regulatory engagement is incredibly valuable. It reduces eager uncertainty, it increases investor confidence and of course it helps especially startups to avoid costly missteps. And if you compare that with uh, other markets, especially with larger markets, you know, Austria with 9 million, uh, inhabitants, we are not a large country. But in larger markets you often have more red tape but less access to decision makers because of the size of the country and regulators and so on. And of course that can slow down innovation just and especially that's a topic, an issue for, for startups when speed matters most.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: It's not just regulation, of course I started with regulation because that's, that's my profession. I think it's Also about the quality of, of the ecosystem because people often don't realize that Europe's largest digital investment platform was founded and scaled here in Austria and Vienna. And I think speaking frankly uh we need to be aware that the success of this Austrian company has been something like a catalyst. It's attracted uh, talent, uh capital and also expertise. And I think it's created something, I don't know how to name it, something like a gravitational center around which other fintechs uh have started to grow.

Speaker A: Uh. Right.

Speaker B: What we are seeing now is an increasingly, increasingly mature fintech ecosystem in Austria because we have on the one hand we have experienced founders, we have interested investors who understand financial innovation and we have legal and tax advisors who are now in the meantime specialists uh in this space and of course also uh our regulators, they are familiar with the business models and uh, I think they are also willing to engage very uh, constructively and I think that kind of uh, uh ecosystem density, this seems to be a game changer. And that can we see for example on the number of fintechs also from United States, uh, from, from Asia coming now with the new mica, uh regulation to Austria. And I think that's another uh issue that's, that's uh, that's the, the point of costs and runaway. Uh, I don't have of course the, the the overview about uh all markets uh around the world but building in Austria uh is from my point of view more affordable than in most major tech hubs. Uh and I think also the burn rate is lower and uh fintechs uh, they are not competing with a thousand other startups for talent. So of course the access to the labor market is better. And uh, fintechs also are not forced to scale prematurely just to stay afloat. And that means that fintechs they can focus more on sustainable growth and I think that's one of the main points to focus on sustainable growth, uh, on thoughtful iteration and on building something that, that actually solves a problem instead of only just looking and chasing the next funding role. And uh, I think additionally uh also maybe more from the European perspective but, but also compared to some foreign markets um Austria also offers a trust based business culture and, and especially for fintechs I think that matters really a lot. So you know you're building in B2B. We have a very advanced banking and insurance sector, uh all sectors where credibility is more or less everything that's the most important value. And I think this um, so to speak long term orientation and this focus on reliability they can Help uh, to build meaningful partnerships and of course also to gain early traction. And uh, maybe the last point is uh, our geographical situation. Of course you pointed it out and, and, and I also did it. We are a small country with nine uh, million inhabitants. But uh, we are not just a small and national market. We are so to speak a strategic entry point to broader regions. So on the one hand uh, Vienna is part of, of the German speaking region of Germany, Austria, Switzerland, but we are also based in the, we always say in the heart of Europe. So we have a very good access to central and eastern Europe and especially there we can observe uh, digital financial services are still rapidly evolving. And I think the third uh, uh, uh point on, on that geographical situation is, is Europe. You know we have ah now with the Meeker, the markets in crypto, asset regulation, a passporting system. So the startup that gets licensed in Austria, they can uh, scale across Europe and they can do this relatively seamlessly. So just to sum up your question or the answer to your question, Austria of course we are a small country, maybe we are more and stricter regulated uh, than others. But I think that's exactly that what makes it an attractive place to build a fintech company because I think we offer in Austria clarity instead of chaos, collaboration instead of friction. And of course that community I pointed out, instead of a hyper competition.

Speaker A: Sure, thank you so much for that. Uh, it would really intensive in terms of how you broke that down. I'm going to take a cue from what you said at the end. You spoke about how some of the uh, companies have actually thought of expanding themselves beyond Austria. Now I know you said Europe, but from a global expansion, ah, mode, do you see them thinking about that as uh, fintech startups or do you see them doubling down on just local market dominance? Because obviously I'm sure because you've seen the tax, regulatory and the policies they change from region to another but what you see is the sentiment right now of the region.

Speaker B: I think that's a great question uh Rupert, because uh, that question is one that really gets to the heart of a strategic dilemma. Uh every successful fintech company uh, eventually faces. Do you go global or do you go deep? And in my experience of course that's more or less limited to European markets. I think the best companies don't see this as an either or. They understand uh, that global expansion and local dominance requirements, different mindsets, different rhythms, uh, but all of them who are successful, who are sustainable, successful, uh, they start with local market dominance. So I think the best fintechs uh, as far as I know them, they don't treat their home market as a launchpad so to speak. They treat it as a lab, as a lab to develop their business. And they obsess over regulation. They build deep integrations with the local banks, insurance company with payment systems, uh, with tax systems, uh, of course they also go through the hard stuff. But because dominance isn't just about user numbers, it's about infrastructure level, uh, relevance. It's about becoming uh, yeah, becoming part of how money moves, how credit flows and how people interact with their financial lives uh every day. And then I think, and that's, that's the second step and that's what we could observe from, from the largest European, uh fintech based and founded here in Austria, uh as a next step then of course they look at, at global expansion and here again Europe uh with now the new uh common regulation with mica. That's uh, everywhere the first step of global expansion. But the smart ones uh, don't only try to clone their product and make something like copy and paste uh across borders uh, because that I won't say it almost never works but very often it doesn't work. Successful companies, they ask what is our core edge? Of course they ask is it technology, is it licensing, uh, is it data? And of course where does that edge travel? Well and uh, I think global expansion isn't just uh, about only going bigger. I think it's uh, it's about going smarter. Uh and in Europe especially you have to be mindful of a regulatory complexity you have in Europe. Europe is not Europe. You have, you have so many languages, so you have language, you have different uh, culture of user trust, uh, and also that the meaning of money, uh, cash for example in Austria, uh, it's very important. So we are always discussing year by year uh to regulate it in our constitutional law. If you travel to Sweden, they don't more or less use in their daily life uh anymore uh cash. So uh, Europe is not Europe. And I uh think fintechs that succeed abroad uh are uh the ones that listen first, listen how the culture works, how the daily behavior with financial transactions works. Then they try to partner very early to find partners, uh and uh, as a so to speak outcome they understand that expansion means reinvention and, and not only simply replication. So if you ask me the most successful uh, uh fintechs, they think local first and then, but then selectively global. And I think they use their whole market to prove resilience, to use it as a lab, as I Mentioned, uh, to test regulatory limits to build real value. And then, and only then, if they succeeded at the local market, they expand in ways that preserve their core identity, but at the same time adapting to the reality of new markets. So uh, in the end it's not about conquering markets from my point of view, it's more about building systems. People trust, whether that's in Vienna, in Barcelona, in Bangkok, uh, New Delhi or wherever. And trust, trust. I think trust can scale, but trust only scales if you earn it locally first.

Speaker A: Very interesting point. You know, the word trust is such a heavy word. Uh, it does take time for people to actually establish it. Thank you so much for that, Edward. Was actually beautifully said. Thank you. So I'm just going to digress from this a bit and talk a little bit about, you know, I'm sure you're, you know, we all obvious to the fact that like tech giants like Amazon, Google, they've managed to build, replace rather a lot of these traditional card services or payment systems and everything. You know, the entire future is actually looking at using some of the platforms that they've built. Do you think that, you know, we're heading towards a future where financial services are just going to be features of these big technology, uh, tech ecosystems? I wouldn't just say companies, but bigger tech ecosystem?

Speaker B: That's a very, very important question. And Frankie, I think it's, it's one that regulators around the world are watching closely. Uh, yes, uh, we are seeing a shift, without doubt a shift where financial services, credit, payments, uh, even lending are increasingly being offered not by banks but by technology companies. So companies, you pointed them out, Apple, uh, Amazon, Google and so on, they're not just enabling payments anymore, they're embedding, they're embedding financial services into their platforms as if they were just one of their features. One out of many, many features, yes. So, uh, are we heading toward a future where financial services are merely functional layers without a big tech, uh, ecosystem? I don't know. Maybe. But, but the more important question is do we understand what that means and are we prepared to shape that kind of future rather than just react to it? And let's be clear, uh, there are real benefits also at this development because big techs, uh, they, they have scale, they have reach, uh, they know how to build, uh, seamless user experiences, maybe better than traditional banks, insurance companies or, or investment firms. And I think in many cases, and I think that that's also a very important, uh, issue to point out, they can reach underserved populations, that traditional Financial institutions has, have struggled to include or maybe sometimes they are not interested to include them. So if done right, that kind of integration could make financial service services more accessible, more frictionless and yes also maybe more responsive uh, to user needs.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: But again in the role as regulator, as former regulator, we have to ask what are the costs? Because when financial services uh, become just another feature, there's a risk, a high risk, they are, become less visible, less accountable and also potentially speaking frankly, less safe. Because only some questions we are asking ourselves then who's underwriting the risks? How are consumers protected? What happens when uh, a platform goes down or maybe only changes its uh, its algorithm overnight and critically uh, how do we preserve financial stability? You know, that's not only from one country to the other or covering Europe, that's maybe then uh, if, if big techs fail then we have a huge worldwide uh, financial uh, stability problem. If they are uh, are very much uh, uh, engaged in, in financial systems. Uh, but not only financial stability is the issue also fair competition? Uh, we always have the discussion on data protection, uh, right. Uh, yeah, a lot of questions where we don't have answers. Of course we have now with, in Europe with dora, with that uh, Digital Operational Resiliency act, also the possibility as far as they uh, act as third party providers, the big techs, uh, or also fintechs, uh for auditing them. So they are part of the European regulation and supervision. Uh but uh, of course we are here also coming very, very uh, fast to borderlines of what regulation can uh, do. And of course again speaking frankly, the role of supervisors is not to stifle innovation. Of course it could be to ensure that innovation can happen, but it must happen then in a way that's safe, fair, inclusive and so on. And I think that's why we are opening regulatory uh, sandboxes. That's why uh, supervisors not only in Austria, but I think we are very advanced. Uh we are engaging with fintechs with big techs alike. Uh, we want to understand what's coming and we want to shape the ecosystem together with them and not to play catch up after problems emerge because you know then the damage is already done and you can react and not, not act.

Speaker A: Correct? Correct. No, that's beautifully said. So I want to just know, is it a supervisory approach difference between Europe and us? Because you did cover what you do from a supervisory angle for big techs and fintechs, but does it differ?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think there is a difference. Uh, I think there's of course a Difference in regulation but also how supervisors work in their daily uh, understanding of how to do the job. Um, I think uh, financial supervision. Europe is not longer only just about stability. I think it's also, especially with the new regulation on me Kendor, it's also about steering innovation in a direction uh, that's not only scalable but also has to be safe, transparent and trustworthy. And when it comes to fintechs and big techs, uh, I think Europe is not sitting back and watching, observing, waiting and maybe then reacting. I think Europe tries uh, to actively build rules, to build tools, to build frameworks that reflect the reality of today's financial system and maybe also the one that's coming next. Decentralized uh, finance for example, uh, up to now it's not covered by mica, but we are aware that here is a lack in the regulation and supervision. But of course Europe is thinking about uh, also how to cover decentralized uh, finance in that way. And uh, I pointed a few times out in answering your questions Mika Andorra, I think these are not small updates. Ah, speaking frankly, I think Micaela are really landmark regulation regulations, landmark regulation that are more or less reshaping the European market because again Mica MICA brings crypto assets, stable coins, wallet providers into a clear and harmonized European wide legal framework. And I think that provides legal certainty. And of course that's something that uh, especially in the crypto space, uh, that crypto space has lacked for far too long and ensures investor protection and market integrity apply when you're uh, dealing with euros or uh, with tokens. So it should not matter if you deal with token or with euros. And very similar dora, the Digital Operational Resilience act, that brings something uh, I also pointed it out before, equally important because it ensures that financial firms, and again especially including Fintechs, uh, and some other ICT third party providers that they are cyber resilient by design. Uh, so they have to prove it in advance and not say okay it happened. Uh, but we could not uh, expect that something like that, like uh, cyber attack could happen. And we uh, were a victim of that. So it's not just about patching things after a bridge, it's about embedding operational resilience right from the start before licensing, uh, they have to prove it before licensing. And I don't know, I'm not an expert in the system for example in the United States, but I think there's for example in US uh there's still no comprehensive federal crypto regulation. I read, I don't know a few weeks uh ago about the fragmentation, about overlapping agencies, uh about enforcement first approaches. Uh, I think uh 31 or 32 of the states they have regional uh, crypto regulation. Uh but uh, of course they are not essentialized really not, not the same. And I think uh, Europe has chosen here a different path. With Mika and Dora we are saying we don't fear innovation, we prepare for it, but we want to provide innovators with clarity. We want to provide consumers with protection. And of course that's our DNA, uh, the financial market with resilience.

Speaker A: Got it. So since you spoke so much about how you're thinking about innovation as a concept and I think the latest thing that's out as an innovation is how AI is disrupting a lot of things including financial services. What do you think are the sentiments of uh, consumers who are actually consuming the product as well as investors who are investing into financial sector. How are we looking at that in Austria? What are your views?

Speaker B: Uh, especially with an eye on artificial intelligence?

Speaker A: Yes, that's right.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think of course digitalization in general. But now uh, since, since uh chat GPT speaking Frankie. Uh, uh, they have fundamentally transformed how people engage with finance. And of course uh, that has also a uh, huge impact of uh, where investors uh, want to invest their money. I think it's not just only about new technologies because the consequence of new technologies is very often that we observe new behaviors and at the same time we need to be aware of new risks emerging especially in that space between technology, finance and psychology. That's very interesting. Uh also if you read some research on this and okay I'll uh give you one example because we did an Austrian research on that uh, uh, the rise of execution only platforms. It's not only an Austrian topic, it's very popular in Europe. I don't know it in other countries outside of Europe but we have seen a surge in users uh managing investments themselves um through uh, sleek through mobile first interfaces without ever speaking to a financial advisor. And according to a study our national bank uh did uh execution only platforms they see a double digit growth rate uh in user adoption uh after the year 2020. Maybe it was a little bit also consequence of the COVID Uh but uh, I think the second issue is that that uh high uh growth rates they focus on, on very young investors. I have two daughters. Uh, they are in their, in their 20s now. Beginning of their 20s. Yeah. I only have uh to talk to them how they do their financial matters and they are the best examples for that we need to be aware that also has opened doors because uh, people can now access markets instantly. They can access them with lower fees because you know they are trying to scale up and therefore uh, they can, can provide lower, lower or sometimes uh, no fees. And I uh, think the third issue is without minimum investment thresholds and I think that that's very, very important. And ah, really that that has opened doors uh, with tools like I don't know, fractional shares. They're also very popular at the moment in Europe. Users can now invest in, in one of the big tags, uh, uh, with I don't know, 1, 2, 3 or €5.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: That's accessibility at scale. And from a financial inclusion standpoint I think it's also very powerful.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: On the other side of the coin, you know, always uh, two sides of the coin one has to be aware of. Uh and here's the catch. Excess is not the same as understanding. I also know that when talking to my, to my daughters, uh, what we are seeing is a growing number of retail investor mistaking interface simplicity for investment expertise. Yeah. And sure that's very, very risky. Risky. And execution only means you're on your own. No suitability checks, no advice, no warnings. If your portfolio makes for you know, an expert or maybe a really a little bit uh, uh, advanced or experienced investor. Makes no sense but nobody will warn you. And very often combined with the gamification of trading, uh apps, uh, notifications, leaderboards, confetti after trade and so on, uh, there is a uh, behavioral environment created that encourages uh, you know, a fast uh, impulsive uh, engagement but not included.

Speaker A: Yeah, right. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think that's the other side, that's the dark side of, of this uh, development. Uh, and uh, I think uh, financial uh, literacy is of course everywhere but it's yeah. Very often used as that's the solution for all these problems. But I think it's, it's uh, a main trigger point uh where. Especially in Europe. But I think it's, it's uh, an issue all around the world that uh, that absolutely I need to improve it that people, especially the younger ones, they only of course they understand how technology works. They know it better than, than people in my age. But I'm not convinced that they all know how financial markets work.

Speaker A: Interesting point. I love the way that you bought your daughters in the entire picture and talked about how the youngsters are using

Speaker B: it so you can learn from them.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Wonderfully covered. Because even when you look at artificial intelligence, lot more um, uh, you know the younger lot are actually using a lot more of it and yeah, thank you so much for that. But the bit about what do you think investors are thinking about? You know there is in especially in financial services when there is a usage of artificial intelligence. How the investors uh behaving to the entire concept, Are they accepting it enough?

Speaker B: I think they do. Of course you know uh, AI has become popular with uh uh ChatGPT, but nevertheless it started with uh some other developments before uh algorithms are used uh everywhere in the banking, in the insurance sector and with that movement from also traditional financial institutions more to that uh technology driven uh companies uh I think also investors are aware that without uh high digitized uh environment also traditional financial institutes will uh not be able to succeed uh in the market. And I think therefore uh we see some different uh developments. One try to develop uh all this kind of artificial intelligence, the assistance around that uh in their own company. Others uh are going in the market and uh decide to buy uh some of the startups, some of the smaller fintechs and then uh integrated in their companies and uh some others that are the third possibility. Uh they try uh to outsource this kind of uh innovation. Um I think all three uh solutions uh uh may work but I think from investor side the companies who are able to integrate this innovation, especially in the AI ah sector they are the most uh attractive for investors uh right now and maybe also for the near future.

Speaker A: Right. What did you see? While the entire funding winter came through there was a lot of uh discussion around companies becoming profitable. Uh I know you've spoken about the innovation and I've seen a lot of founders take cover under innovation and burn uh cash, you know the, the urge to become unicorns. Uh so what, what do you think from you know, from your position, what have you observed? What do you think is evolving in your country?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's also a crucial question because in today's markets the difference between a unicorn uh on the one hand and the sustainable business, I think it's not just valuation. From my experience, from my point of view, it's discipline. As uh someone who observes market dynamics up close, I can tell you what separates sustainable companies from growth at all costs. Stories often comes down to one word and this is resilience. Right now let's be honest, we have been living through a decade where growth was everything, really everything. And the only also for investors, yeah the only uh issue was uh, how fast are you able to, to grow especially in, in the fintech sector, uh if you had user growth, you got funded if you scaled fast, you were celebrated in the media of course also by investors and so on even, and even I think that was interesting. I was very often surprised but it worked. Even if you are burning tens of millions each quarter, uh, even if that happened you were celebrated, you got founded. And I think uh, also um, having some data, some figures in mind according I think the uh European uh fintech report from uh, I think it was 23 but published in 24 uh that more than 60% uh of European fintech unicorns are still operating at a net loss. 60%. So more than half of European fintech unicorns uh and this despite raising over I think that I'm not Quite sure uh 30 or 40 billion uh combined since 2017 or 18. So of course they got a lot of money but they are still burning money. So the model was we'll find profitability later. Ah happened later and I think uh yeah we, we saw it especially uh with the beginning in Europe of the war in Ukraine. So 22, 23 uh that, that later has a way of showing up suddenly and when the funding environment tightens. And as I pointed out we saw that uh, uh two, three years ago uh unit economics uh start to matter again. And sustainable businesses, they don't chase top line growth, they chase customer value. So they don't ask how fast can we scale, where can we scale, where can we scale uh in the fastest way? They asked can we scale profitably with purpose and can we scale under control. And uh, there are no, no secrets I'm talking about. But it's also one in Europe, one of uh the tools for regulators and supervisors we can uh tell uh especially we did it in the past for fintechs you have to slow down with your growth. You have to slow down. Yeah. And that's that are binding decisions taken by European supervisors. And that has not been only once we had it in Austria we I know it from Germany, I know it from some other countries that some of that fintech companies there was a former decision you have a ceiling, uh and you are only allowed to grow up to that ceiling and not more because otherwise you will have problems with your uh license. And I think uh, that's what I pointed out in the beginning. Uh it's not about scaling, it's about uh being uh sustainable. It's about being also of course not from the first year you need to build up your business. Uh but uh to get a unicorn it needs not only one or two years. Uh maybe that happened Somewhere but that's, that's the exception. That's not, not the normal case. So uh, but if to get a unicorn also needs uh to get a profitable business, uh model. And I think maybe as a last point, there's also a behavioral element because companies with a sustainable mindset, they are less driven by egometrics. They, they, they uh, you know like, like downloads or press headlines. Uh, that's always dangerous. If some always uh, with, with some, some news uh, in, in the media. That's very often for us as supervisors. Okay, we'll see what happens next. Yeah, uh, we should be more driven by impact metrics. Are we solving, asking themselves are we solving the real problem? Are we doing it better than anyone else? Especially like others in the, in the market? And of course are customers willing to pay for it? And are they willing to pay for it not only once but again and again? Because if the only way your business works is with endless external capital. So yeah, burning money again, uh, you don't have a business, you have a dependency.

Speaker A: Agreed.

Speaker B: And here's the thing, the market is catching up to that reality and I think we, we are facing that development uh, in some of this uh, uh, Fintech, uh, yeah, I don't know how to call them, the, the rockets, uh, from former times that they are not aware because also you know the changing of uh, of um. Interest, environment in, in Europe, uh and so on. So it's not so easy to get uh, uh external money. Uh as long as you are not able to prove that you are uh, that you are providing a business with uh, profit. Yeah. And uh, I think resilience uh isn't built in bull markets. Uh it's proven especially in downturns in Europe. We are facing more or less everywhere downturns not only in Austria. And I think what separates the two models is it's not charisma. It's also I also pointed it out, it's not speed, it's again it's the ability to survive long enough to matter or especially longer as uh, as uh, the competing uh uh, um enterprises. So I think sustainable businesses, they stay close to their fundamentals. They grow when it makes sense and when they are able to afford it. And they see a profit there. And they also. And and we saw it, uh, we saw it it, we saw it with the beginning of the Ukraine war, some of them were I think aware enough that they also had to slow down when it's smart to do so. And especially uh, Covid and, and. And the war, the beginning of the war was such a period. Uh, and also the, the largest Austrian company yet. They slowed down, they reduced. Yeah. And of course they were flexible enough when the markets were again, uh, developing well, uh, then they started again with a very active uh, uh, intervention in the market. But they were smart enough uh, to slow down in critical times. So they're not only just trying to be the first uh, for an ipo, they're trying to be the last one standing. Yeah, I think durability over drama, sustainability over spectacle and ah, very often um, trust has to become first, uh, and has to be over traction only.

Speaker A: So wonderfully put. I wish that a lot of these founders or upcoming founders are the ones who want to start a fintech. If they were to listen to what you just said, they'll know the recipe to make this a successful venture. Because I love the way that as uh, you know, you've been part of fma, you've been part of esma, as an authority, as a regulator, as a supervisory board person, you've managed to actually put this so beautifully crafted it so well for what a startup enthusiast should actually, you know, look for in this field. And I think what you said is not just relevant to fintech, is relevant for all companies at all stages. Um, thank you uh, Dr. Mullah for that. I think it was. I really enjoyed the part where you, you were giving like you know, the pointers of what they should focus on. I think I, I've made few footnotes as well on what I should focus on as a founder too. So thank you so much for that. It was brilliant. I have just one small, um, you know, the last question for the day, but I wanted to ask you this, that if there were three things as a regulator that you'd like to tell a person. Let's say that I'm a new founder who wants to set up a fintech company in Austria or any part of the world as a regulator. As a person who's seen this, what are three things that you would tell them as you know, the go to points, if you can help us with that.

Speaker B: Yeah, maybe that's again especially from the view of a, uh, regulator or a former regulator and supervisor, I think uh, you have to uh, observe and uh, try to understand the local market and the possibilities offered in this local market. And especially for fintechs, with the new European regulation, you should get very early into contact with the supervisors, with the local supervisors. And if there is, and that's not only an issue for Austria, that's also in many other Countries you have that uh, sandbox systems and uh, you can develop your business with uh, support, uh, but also of course with observation uh, by financial regulators and you should use it. That's. I think that the first issue, uh, the second point is uh, if you then move forward, be aware to be successful. It's not only the question of how to scale, how to grow. It's also the question, yeah, where to grow, uh, where to move, where to expand. Uh, and maybe again to do that what you uh, started in the local market, where you off, uh, you opened your business also to try to do it of course in a faster way with the experience from the first step to do it for the new markets, to understand the new market, to understand maybe the difference in culture. If you're in Europe you don't have the problem of different regulations. So that's easier, uh, and then to set uh, to put the next step in growing. Yeah. And I think uh, the last uh point I want from my experience, uh race, uh is uh, that uh also Fintechs, uh, even if their business is uh more or less based on scale up, uh, they need to be aware that's not always the solution. So be careful in the way you scale up, be careful in the way you are growing, uh, and maybe sometimes uh, to slow down, uh is also good advice, especially if uh, the markets are in, in uh, in a critical situation or in a, In a, In a fragile uh, situation like we are uh, observing it just now.

Speaker A: Right, Right. All right. Thank you so much for that Dr. Muller and thank you once again for being on the show. Thank you for taking the time out and participating in the questions that we had for you. Would you like to have, Would you like to say any last few words before we end the session?

Speaker B: Thank you first for having me here. It was an honor and pleasure. And also uh, of course from the European and a little bit from an Austrian perspective to share some of our insights, but also to hear uh, your point of view from uh, the global perspective. Uh, yeah, I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. And all the best to Europa.

Speaker A: Thank you so much. Dr. Muller, thank you so much. Thanks for your time.