The Teamwork Advantage a Gregg Gregory Podcast · 2025-03-24 · 42 min
Louis Katz brings a refreshing perspective on courage as an everyday practice rather than extraordinary achievement. After two decades building Technoline Inc. as an IT managed services provider, Katz pivoted to speaking and writing about bold decision-making, drawing on his philosophy that 'who you are' trumps 'what you do.' He explores courage through diverse heroes - Muhammad Ali's visualization and confidence, Willie Nelson's willingness to tour at 91, Aaron Ralston's survival story, Simone Biles' mental health advocacy, and the U.S. Army Golden Knights - to illustrate that courage manifests differently across contexts. For business leaders, the practical takeaway is clear: organizations thrive when employees feel safe enough to speak up in meetings, present ideas, and take small courageous steps in both personal and professional lives. Katz emphasizes that leaders must know their teams deeply through personality assessments and understand that some personalities need encouragement while others need to be balanced. His definition - 'facing fear with unwavering resolve' - acknowledges the humorous reality that resolve itself wavers. This episode benefits operators building psychologically safe teams, HR professionals developing employee engagement, and leaders seeking to understand how everyday courage translates to profitability and innovation.
Louis asks permission before photographing people rather than working surreptitiously, which he describes as an act of courage he practices daily - every time he goes out, he starts from zero with nervousness, despite having shot hundreds of thousands of photos.
When employees feel courageous enough to speak up and share ideas in meetings, engagement increases within the organization, which directly translates to a more profitable company.
Leaders should encourage small courageous acts in both personal and professional lives, use personality assessments to know their people deeply, and model courageous behavior during difficult situations - knowing which team members need encouragement versus which need to be balanced in group settings.
It's a deliberately short definition (under five words) that acknowledges courage means stepping into fear despite it, though he humorously notes his own resolve wavers significantly.
She withdrew despite not being universally supported, with critics saying she let down her team and country, but ultimately taught people that 'it's okay to not be okay' and opened conversations about mental health and therapy.
Computed from the transcript - who did the talking, and the words that came up most.
In this captivating episode of The Teamwork Advantage podcast, host Gregg Gregory welcomes Louis Katz, founder of The Courage Inside, for an inspiring conversation about everyday courage and its profound impact on personal and professional life. With a unique background spanning IT entrepreneurship, speaking, and even stand-up comedy, Louis shares profound insights on how courage manifests in our daily lives and workplaces. Drawing from his diverse heroes like Muhammad Ali, Willie Nelson, and Simone Biles, Louis explores what true courage looks like - not just in extraordinary circumstances, but in the small, consistent actions we take every day. From owning mistakes to speaking up in meetings, this episode unpacks how cultivating courage can transform team dynamics, boost engagement, and create more fulfilling careers. Whether you're facing a major career transition, building resilience through failure, or simply looking to break out of your comfort zone, this episode offers actionable insights on facing fear with unwavering resolve - even when that resolve occasionally wavers.
Transcribed and scored by The B2B Podcast Index.
Speaker A: Welcome to the Teamwork Advantage podcast with Greg Gregory, founder of TeamsRock.com. join us as Greg interviews thought leaders and successful team and leadership experts from professional sports to manufacturing to business and industry. Now let's join Greg for another powerful episode of the Teamwork Advantage. Hello and welcome back to the uh, Teamwork Advantage podcast is dedicated to the growth and development of three key areas. Teamwork, leadership and culture. My name is Greg Gregory, the host and creator of the podcast. And guys, can you believe it? We've been doing this for five years. We're over 180 episodes been broadcast around the world. So thank you, thank you, thank you to everybody who's joined in and listened to the Teamwork Advantage. Over the years we, we've had some amazing guests and that's going to continue. So be sure to hit the like button, subscribe button to what you've got down below. Reach out to us anytime. If you've got questions about teamwork, look our people up, look me up. Let's talk about what we can do to help you build a better team. Whether it's in person, virtual, remote hybrid, or guess what, if it's personal teams, if it's business teams, sports teams, the principles we talk about, uh, all work through that. So joining us today we've got a person talking about courage and that's going to be interesting because in today's environment we need to have some courage and some hope going through things with all the things that are happening around the world today and multiple levels. So joining us today is Louis Katz and he's the founder Keep this mind guys. He is the founder of, of the Courage Inside. They navigate the crossroads of entrepreneurship, information technology, leadership and creativity. I know we've got a lot of folks on here who listen to us that are in the IT support world. He champions the philosophy that's very simple that you very simple that you just trumps what you do. The principle that's guided a diverse journey through his career life. After transforming Technoline Inc. From a, uh, break and fix operation to a thriving managed services provider over two decades, Lewis miraculously sold the company a feat that attributes to divine intervention. And guess what guys? He now focuses on writing, speaking and exploring bold decision making with curiosity and hard earned wisdom. Don't we all get our most of our wisdom from hard knocks and learning? He's been married for 25 years. He's now an empty nester. We'll talk about that, maybe find out how that's life like and how that's changed his team dynamics. At home, he also understands the courage extends beyond business into family. He embraces the anticipatory dread and considers the imposter syndrome a secret weapon. I cannot wait to understand how that is, because many people think imposter syndrome is a challenge problem. When he's not working, he pursues storytelling, street photography, and boy, let me tell you, some of his photographs are incredible. As well as adventures and challenging boundaries, he approaches life through a lens of curiosity and courage. And yes, it is propelled by coffee and creativity. Hey, uh, Louis, welcome to the teamwork advantage.
Speaker B: What do you mean some of my photos are incredible?
Speaker A: Yeah, let me tell you, they're all amazing photos and everything. If you're watching right now on YouTube, we're going to get to the one that's behind him. Uh, so if you're watching us, you'll be able to see that incredible shot. But let's talk a little bit here. Tell us, Louis, you didn't wake up or graduate college one day and say, I'm going to be a speaker. Talk about courage. What, what propelled you? How did you get here?
Speaker B: You know, I got here because I, I owned an IT business and I believe in coaching, so I always have at least one, but typically two coaches that I work with. And Dina Patton was my coach and she was suggesting the idea of speaking to sell, to get it business. Mhm. That's where it, that's where it first came up. It didn't occur to me that I could be a speaker, you know, for the sake of speaking.
Speaker A: Many of us, many of us get started going. You can make money at that. So. Right.
Speaker B: It's, I mean, I have it. Well, no, I have. But, uh, you know, it's, it's evolving, right?
Speaker A: It is. So you got into it and you started speaking that way. What brought you over to the aspect of courage? I mean, you, you, you were in it and you were a leader with Technoline. So tell us about that.
Speaker B: Yeah, so when I was at Techno Lean, I would say, well, what happened is that over time it felt less part of my soul and courage came up. We were probably in about the 25th year of the pandemic. I was down in California at that time, and, uh, I was feeling very frustrated and wanting to have some sort of outlet without somebody yelling at me to put on my mask. And so I created, uh, a website called the Courage Run. It was based on me and my buddy Bernard. In our 20s, we were runners and we, we had a couple different runs that ended in very, very big hills. So we would Call each other up and say, hey, let's go do the courage run. And that became my space to do a weekly newsletter and to post my photography and essentially share my opinion of things with the world and not feel like somebody was going to be breathing down my neck.
Speaker A: And that's kind of interesting because the pandemic, we all had to be couragey, uh, encouraging others and be courageous in our own ways. Some people say courageous is walking to the ledge and taking a jump. Some people think, you know, the courageous is jumping out of an airplane. Some people courageous is simply getting out of bed in the morning.
Speaker B: So absolutely.
Speaker A: Courageous changes and varies all over the place. And a lot of it is having faith in what you do, having faith in who you are. So what's, what's the secret when we get into that now, we're going to get to your heroes in a minute, but give me right off the top here so we give somebody a nugget right up front. What's a secret about being courageous?
Speaker B: A secret about being courageous is that we don't have to jump out of an airplane. We, it's something that we have to work on consistently. And I use the example of my street photography where I'm not, I'm not a sneaky street photographer. I ask people for permission and I will tell you of all, and I've shot 10, hundreds of thousands of photos and asking permission can be. Well for me it's an act of courage. Every day that I go out and do it. I'm starting from zero. I have a knot in my stomach. I'm thinking, oh, uh, God, I don't want to walk up to somebody and ask their permission. And ah, so it's, it's the same with everything related to courage is that we need to be consistent.
Speaker A: So some people say it's easier to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission. What is your take on that?
Speaker B: Yeah, I'm one of those people.
Speaker A: But, but you still ask for permission to take pictures?
Speaker B: I do because I want it. I, I want them to participate.
Speaker A: Mhm.
Speaker B: Now so I'm not knocking the people who do it surreptitiously. They're, they're not wanting to insert themselves into whatever's going on. I get that. Mhm. For me it's a two way, it's a communication. I love to communicate and connect with people.
Speaker A: Well, let's talk about some of your heroes there because you've got a diverse group of heroes. Okay. Now most of them I think everybody's going to recognize off the Top. Muhammad Ali, Willie Nelson, Simone Biles. Then you've got a couple that others may not readily know off the top of their head. One is Aron Ralston and the other one is the Golden Knights, who are right behind you there in your photograph.
Speaker B: Correct.
Speaker A: Tell us a little bit about the Golden Knights, a little bit about Aaron Ralston story. Because his story is absolutely amazing. There's no doubt. But then how does Willie Nelson, Simone Biles and Muhammad Ali tie in?
Speaker B: Yeah, I got a lot of heroes. So the Golden Knights, for me, they are guys and, and women who may have done seven or eight tours, combat tours, Iraq, Afghanistan, and they made it home in one piece and now they're jumping out of airplanes. Are you kidding me? And the Golden Knights, for, for anybody who doesn't know, they're, they're the U.S. army parachute team. They, they perform at air shows. They're amazing. And they're, they are an example for me of, uh, the importance of preparation in order to be courageous.
Speaker A: Okay, now I know, but let's let everybody else know. How many times have you jumped with the Golden Knights?
Speaker B: How many times have I jumped at all? Zero.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: And, but I'm gonna have to do it because the Golden Knights figure very heavily in my keynote.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: And I get up in front of a room and I say, all right, who here has jumped out of an airplane? And the hands shoot up and then I have to ask, well, should I do it? And they're like, yeah, you should do it. How can you talk to us about courage if you're not willing to do it yourself?
Speaker A: Yep. So let's talk about Aaron Ralston.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Tell your story so briefly. Give us his story for those who don't know it.
Speaker B: Yeah. So he, he, he went out wandering in the Utah desert and, and got himself stuck between a rock and a hard place. Literally. Literally. And he was either gonna die or saw off his own arm. So he had a rusty old multi tool, you know, like a Swiss army knife. And he sawed his own arm off and saved his life. And uh, I actually reached out to him, I sent him a message on LinkedIn and I challenged him, you know, two against one. Ah. And just, just to make it fair, I'd have him tie his one good hand behind his back. He, he wrote me back, you know, haha. Uh, but he was actually very gracious. But again, it's like, my God, what business do I have talking to people about courage? I never sawed my own arm off. Who's going to listen to me?
Speaker A: Mhm. It is interesting because courageous is not necessarily doing extraordinary things.
Speaker B: It's not.
Speaker A: It's about, like I said, some people having courage is just to get out of bed in the morning. Courage is so different. So we look back. Okay, let's talk a little bit. I want to save Simone Biles for last. What about Muhammad Ali and Willie Nelson? How do they fit into this? They're very different people. And Ali I kind of get a little bit. But Willie Nelson, I'm a little baffled. On.
Speaker B: Well, uh, let's look at Willie Nelson. He's what, 91 years old?
Speaker A: Mhm.
Speaker B: He's still out on tour.
Speaker A: Yep.
Speaker B: And that, that to me alone is a courageous act for somebody that old to be up on stage. Which, you know, what if he trips over a wire? You know, what if he has a stroke? What if. I mean, all kinds of things happen when you're 90m.
Speaker A: Mick Jagger's another one.
Speaker B: Mick Jagger, right. And Willie. So he's doing these things, he calls up his friends, he says, you know, he calls up Bob Dylan, hey, Bob, you want to go on tour? And you know, Bob Dylan said, you got a lot of nerve. And sorry, that's a reference to positively 4th Street. It's. You got to be above. Anyway, no, of course it, uh. And ah. And he comes along and. And last year he had John Mellencamp. And. But here's the cool thing is he also brings in somebody like a younger generation that people haven't heard about. And that's a risk, that's, you know, bringing somebody new. Maybe they're going to land, maybe they're not.
Speaker A: Mhm.
Speaker B: And he, but he's doing it. That's a courageous act for him.
Speaker A: Uh, and his son's following along in some of the same footsteps. Lucas Nelson's following some of those lines that.
Speaker B: That's right.
Speaker A: Yeah.
Speaker B: And. And so he's a. I mean, he's an inspiration for me as an older person, you know, 38 years old, starting a new career as a speaker. And you didn't call me out on that. That's okay.
Speaker A: Oh, wait.
Speaker B: Well, people are going to hear audio, they're not going to get it.
Speaker A: I'm.
Speaker B: I'm not 38 years old. We don't need to know. But, but yeah, so. So Willie to me is courageous for. For multiple reasons, you know, showing. Showing us that, hey, you don't have to retire when you're 65.
Speaker A: Right now, Muhammad Ali, I got to tell you a little bit here. When I was a young kid, Ali was. And let's Face it guys, I'm not 38 years old either. I'm um, not double that, but pushing it. But I thought Muhammad Ali was a pompous, arrogant, egotistical, self centered twit.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: I didn't like him. I didn't nothing about the man. Part of that was because I didn't know who he was.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: And as I got older, I started to really understand who he was or who at that time, who he still was and how he grew. And I started to really like him. And then it was Atlanta, Georgia, 1996. And I heard more and I read more and he works his way up with his disease, up to the top and lights the cauldron.
Speaker B: Right.
Speaker A: Today if I'm asked in a group, who would you like to have dinner with? Alive or dead, anytime in past, present, Ali is usually at the top of my list because he was courageous to stand for what he stood for. And you know, when you can back up what you say, it's not arrogance. Once you build trust with somebody, you can do a lot more. So tell me your take on Ali with courage.
Speaker B: It's man, uh, I couldn't say it better than you did. And for me, he. See, I, I would say that I was like you at first, like, you know what, what an arrogant guy. But as I've gotten to know a little bit more about him and, and studied him a little, just a little bit. I'm not an Ali scholar, but I love the fact that six months before he became the world heavyweight champion, he was saying that he was going to be the world heavyweight champion. He said I am the greatest. But he backed it up. He was doing the training. He knew he, he was, he was visualizing. Right. This is before people talked about visualizing. And so he made it true in his own head. And he did the things outside of his head that it would take to, to make that dream come true. And he was also very playful about it. If you ever listen to that album of his, you know the I am the Greatest. Oh, that thing is, it's hilarious.
Speaker A: Well, I'd love to listen to him with the old interviews with Howard Cosell too. So there's some great ones there.
Speaker B: Yeah.
Speaker A: So, um, Simone Biles, we all know the strength that she has.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: I mean you had a lot of dynamite packed up in that little 4 foot 11 body or whatever she is. I mean she is just incredible. But more than that, being able to step out with her mental challenges and come forward with that, that takes a different level of courage. Am I.
Speaker B: Right, you're absolutely right. Because she wasn't universally supported when she walked away, people felt like she let down the team, that she let down the country, that somebody else could have taken the spot if she had made the decision earlier. But I think ultimately people mostly rallied round and she taught us that it's okay to not be okay. And people were able to take that and say, you know what? I'm not okay. I'm gonna get some therapy. I'm gonna take a break from what I'm doing, whatever it is. Mhm.
Speaker A: Yeah. Carson Daly from the Today show and the host of the Voice, he's also stepped up about that. The challenges he's had. I think the more we talk about that, the better it is. And it opens it all up. There are some people in multiple generations that think depression is just a bunch of foo foo. Well, it's not true. It's a chemical imbalance of the brain. And you know, those things happen. And sometimes it's having the courage just to speak it. And that's, that's the thought of it. So we've talked about people here.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Let's take this courage. I want to, I want to dive into those people because they're very diverse, there's no doubt about it. But I wanted to take the everyday courage that each of us have to have every day. Sometimes it's getting out of bed, sometimes getting on a New York subway, sometimes it's getting into an airplane. Whatever it happens to be, there is a certain level of courage. So my question is how does everyday courage apply? And then how does it also affect organizations in business?
Speaker B: So, uh, it's a great question and it plays on, on multiple levels. Let's say you're a, uh, mid level employee in an organization and you're afraid to speak up in a meeting.
Speaker A: Mhm.
Speaker B: And maybe you, you got bullied earlier in your life. Maybe your boss is, doesn't like hearing other people's ideas. I mean, it could be a number of factors. It could be your personality type, you could be shy, introverted, you may not feel like your input is valuable. And by drawing upon that courage to speak up in a meeting or present an idea, uh, it boosts engagement within an organization. It gives the organization an opportunity to benefit and that translates into more profitable company. Simple stuff. I mean, there's a bunch of different ways.
Speaker A: Yeah. So I want to go then now. So that's kind of why it's important.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: So why leaders need to care about it. So my question now becomes what can Sally do as the leader of a team, or Bob do as a vp, or Carolyn do as an executive or human resources, or any person in an organization. What can they do to really build that courage up and encourage those people to become better? What are some things in your mind that you can do to help people become more courageous, even at the simplest things.
Speaker B: So on the simplest level, we can encourage the people within our company to do small courageous things in their personal lives. Right. Not just the office. And it could be as simple as picking up the phone and checking in with a friend or calling your parents that you haven't spoken to in a year. Things. Ah. And it obviously it's going to be different for everybody. There will be overlap. And so if we get people to practice small steps in their everyday lives as well as within the organization, uh, and the organization, they need to know their people very well because there are different kinds of personalities.
Speaker A: Really? I never even. It's like,
Speaker B: it's uh. I was having a conversation earlier today about this, um, uh, a young lady who, with teams and she does personality assessments to help the teams work better together. And that's a first step, is getting to know your people. And some people are going to need more encouragement to draw them out. Others, it's going to be no problem. It's like, okay, Jerry, you now presented three ideas. Let's hear from Kim.
Speaker A: Uh, and some people need to be tamped down. Some people are so overcharged they drown out other members of the team.
Speaker B: Absolutely. I'm guilty. You know, when I'm, when I'm in a Zoom meeting and it's like, oh, oh, what about this?
Speaker A: What?
Speaker B: Right. It comes from being a speaker in a stand up comic.
Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. You also done some stand up comedy. That's another thing in your bio I forgot to mention there. That's right.
Speaker B: No, it's true. I was recently voted Boise's most. Why don't you just give up comic for the third year in a row.
Speaker A: By the way, that's Boise, Idaho is where he is. If you guys.
Speaker B: It is.
Speaker A: Yeah. Not.
Speaker B: Not Boise, the other one.
Speaker A: Yeah. From, from Southern California to Boise, Idaho.
Speaker B: Yes. And by the way, I gotta. Look, I've been here a year and a half, but there's no Z in Boise. It's Boise.
Speaker A: Mhm. That boy Z.
Speaker B: Not, uh, Boise. No.
Speaker A: So here's, here's a question.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: You've got one child.
Speaker B: I got one.
Speaker A: You're now an empty nester.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: I want to ask you a question about courage here.
Speaker B: Okay.
Speaker A: Okay. When your daughter was born.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: You had to have a lot of courage thinking, okay, what do I do here?
Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.
Speaker A: I'm like, they don't want to take it. She's now living on her own.
Speaker B: Correct.
Speaker A: Okay. A few hours away.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Takes courage to be an empty nester. Talk to me about the differences in courage. Bringing a child into this world and then setting her free.
Speaker B: Yeah. No, you bring them into the world and you realize, what, what have I done here? And you can't put them back. Ah. And so you, you just kind of. Well, for me, I'm, uh, I'm not. So. So if somebody came to me and said, oh, you raised, you raised a kid. Why don't you lead this workshop on effective parenting? No way. I consider myself marginal at best. But we, you know, you muddle through and you go to the soccer games and you know, you, like, I had certain, certain dreams for my child. Uh, people use the example of, oh, God, I wanted my kid to be a doctor and blah, blah, blah. My kid actually did want to be a doctor, but ended up an English major. And that's okay. I, I have to remind myself of your question because I go off. But.
Speaker A: So there was courage involved when she, when she brought her into the world and you raised her through all the trials and tribulations over the years and
Speaker B: this was a fairly low maintenance kid.
Speaker A: Okay. But, uh, let's look now. She's finished college.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: She's moving out on her own. You're an empty nester. That's a whole different realm of courage. It's like you wander around the house and hello, hello, hello.
Speaker B: Now we're, you know what, it's important to have a life. And so for, for me as the self absorbed dad, there's, I've always that, that has, I think it's been more of a problem for my wife than me. But you worry like, oh my God, is my kid gonna get a job ever? And things like that. I mean, everybody worries about that.
Speaker A: How did you instill courage in your daughter?
Speaker B: I would say by example, mostly.
Speaker A: Hm.
Speaker B: Rather than saying, you got to be courageous. No, you gotta. It's because difficult situations arise and they're watching you.
Speaker A: Mhm.
Speaker B: And seeing how you act in a situation. And by the way, in, in my keynote, I talk about how each of us has a circle of influence of dozens or hundreds of people who are watching us and waiting to see what we do, which gives them permission to do what they do.
Speaker A: Right.
Speaker B: And that's amplified in, in our homes and our Families
Speaker A: telling somebody to be strong, be courageous.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Not the way to do it. Now, of course, I remember Zig Ziglar used to have an acronym for the word fear. False Evidence Appearing Real. So realize certain evidence may not be real. Once we understand that, then we can build our courage up. Courage, uh, is not about running away from something. It's, it's not about hiding from it. It's about stepping into it in spite of having fear and.
Speaker B: Ah, absolutely. So the, the, the short definition of courage, and I wanted it to be short because I can't remember more than five words. It's facing fear with unwavering resolve.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: And it's, uh, usually like I, I kind of descend into a bit there where I say, you know, I'm, I'm happy to face fear as long as it's with the back of my head, you know. The only thing unwavering about my resolve is just how wavering it is. And we have to give ourselves grace.
Speaker A: And again, there's a big one right there. We've got to give ourselves grace. I know I'm guilty of that. I'm guilty every day of saying somebody says, great job. Yeah, I could have done more. I'm guilty of that. And that's something I'm learning to get over very slowly in my life. But we've got to give ourselves grace like that. We really do.
Speaker B: And there, you know, we, we all have certain anchors on us that are impediments, things that get in our way, and we, we beat ourselves up. And that doesn't help. It doesn't. I mean, maybe, I don't know, maybe somebody's going to come along and say, well, no, actually beating yourself up is appropriate at certain times. Okay, I can, I, I can get with that. But, uh, but I think mostly we over beat ourselves.
Speaker A: Exactly. Recognizing you made a mistake, going, why did you make that mistake is one thing, but beating yourself up over the mistake is another.
Speaker B: No, absolutely, I made a mistake once. I think this would be a good point to segue into that.
Speaker A: Uh, yeah, I was going to get there because let's face it, failure is. People say failure is not an option. Great line from the Apollo 13 crew. And they actually use that line, so. But failure is not an option that way. But guess what? Making mistakes happens. Uh, yes, there is no doubt about that. We make mistakes. The problem is so many of us beat ourselves up over these mistakes. And, oh, I've done this and I really now they won't take another chance. They won't do a certain Thing. You made a pretty significant mistake one time.
Speaker B: No, I did, but since you brought up failure is not an option. I wanted to bring that up because I have a follow up thought that I use in my talks. Yeah, failure is not an option, it's a requirement.
Speaker A: Yeah, we've got to fail.
Speaker B: That's profound, Louis.
Speaker A: No, we've got to fail. I tell people in delegation, you've got to give a delegated task to somebody, give them enough time to try it and fail so that they learn from it and then succeed. That's the way you get delegation done. That's the way you get growth in people. So.
Speaker B: And that's how you get them not to fear failure.
Speaker A: Right, so tell us about this mistake where, folks, he lost an entire client file.
Speaker B: No, not just the folder. With everything that we had ever done.
Speaker A: Yeah. So you're talking a physical folder.
Speaker B: No, no, it was a. It was a folder on a Mac. And this is in the. Probably the year 2000, thereabouts. And I was working for Andy Engel. He is prominent graph or he was a. He's probably retired anyway. Graphic designer. You've seen his work. He, he designed the, the Born to Run album. Bruce Springsteen, like he was at that level. And I was one of his production artists. I was actually there because one of the other guys got shot by his mother in law. He was Jewish and she was anti Semitic. So that, that's how I. I ended up back at Andy's. This was now my third time working for him. And so I'm working on my Mac and there's all this crap on the desktop and I hate a messy desktop. So I thought, uh, okay, I'm just going to clean it up. And so I dragged everything that was on the desktop into the trash. And then I emptied the trash. And then I'm asking myself, why did.
Speaker A: What.
Speaker B: Why did I do that? And to this day, I don't know, other than maybe I thought they were aliases.
Speaker A: Okay, so. Yeah, what were the repercussions?
Speaker B: No, the repercussions were I sat there for a minute and I'm thinking, okay, the right thing to do is to tell Andy now what I could. And there were two alternatives. The other one was to just sit there and wait for Andy to come up and ask me why I was crying. And then the third alternative, because Glenn was back and he was, you know, he was still pretty mixed up from being shot. They had to rewire him and take out his spleen. And conceivably, you know, he might have. He might have thought that he did it.
Speaker A: Allow somebody else take blame. Gotcha. Huh. Huh.
Speaker B: Right. No, I'm just spelling out the possible scenarios. Right. So, so I, I went up, I went up to Andy's desk and I just spit it out. Ah. And I didn't know, like, maybe he's gonna fire me. Uh, you know, maybe I was hoping he would fire me because we didn't. Never mind. But he, he didn't fire me. And, and he didn't make me come in over the weekend to recreate everything. He, he did. He, he just, he was very gracious. He said two words.
Speaker A: Words.
Speaker B: The second one was you. And, and the first word also had a U, but it was the letter U, not the word you. And it sounds like fun, but not in this context. Anyway, so he, he said that. Now you're thinking, well, okay, no big deal. We got a backup. We didn't have a backup. And so I, I, I, uh, looked up, uh, I T. Guys in the yellow pages. We had those back in those days. And, and I got somebody to come in, and they couldn't recover it. The good news is a lot of those jobs were on CDs. Thank God. And, and so it wasn't as horrible as it could have been.
Speaker A: Still pretty bad.
Speaker B: No, it's pretty bad. And, you know, with I, I became an IT Guy pretty soon after that, and I was very cautious about who I told that story to because you don't want, you know, you, you don't want your IT Clients thinking that you're going to destroy their client folder.
Speaker A: Right. It's, it's interesting because there's a very strong, significant mistake that you made.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: You recovered from it.
Speaker B: I did.
Speaker A: When we fail, courage develops from the times from what we fail at. We start to grow with it. Okay. It's repetition. It's practice. You know, I've had Nicole Malachowski, first, uh, Thunderbird, female Thunderbird pilot in history on. It was the practice and everything that she got in understanding how you had to work together. The picture behind you of the Golden Knights, the, you know, in that picture, they had you mentioned it early on. You know, it was, uh, the repetitive practice to be able to do it. James Clear's book Atomic Habits focuses in, on being able to do things repetitively so that you can get those simple, so you can still begin to elevate and grow. Those are the things that we all need to focus in on. And so it's interesting when we think from time to time, we screw up and absolutely do. That's okay. That's it. Okay.
Speaker B: Mhm.
Speaker A: When you mess up, just own it. Just as you did. You walked into Andy and you owned it.
Speaker B: I did.
Speaker A: Now imagine had you not owned it, what would have happened when he found out?
Speaker B: Yeah, no, he would, I mean, he would have been pissed. I don't know that he would have hired me because, I mean, fired me, but it would have tainted the whole relationship.
Speaker A: Relationship. Yeah. Yeah. If we could sum up being courageous. Yes. How would you, without giving the definition that you gave earlier, how would you summarize the power of being courageous, both from the benefits of it and how to do it?
Speaker B: So I would say, and I like to keep things simple for people, so I say take a chance.
Speaker A: Okay, now you're, now you're quoting Abba. Sorry. Could not refuse to go there.
Speaker B: Uh, no, I'm a Tom Petty fan, so you, you kind of offended me there. But it's, you know, what we, we should pull from, from wherever the wisdom comes from. And taking a chance is, is a way that we can, we can become more courageous. And I'm not, I, I don't want to, uh, I don't want to sell a, uh, a bill of goods here and tell people, you know, the, the more, the, the more you exercise your courage muscle, the easier it's going to get. Now that's not true. Uh, I mean, it can be true, but some things just by their nature, it's not going to get easier, but you're going to get used to it and, and you're going to feel more comfortable being uncomfortable. And that's something that you can hold out to yourself as. Okay, how do I do this? Well, come up with a few things that help you become more comfortable at, uh, being uncomfortable. Maybe you go to an open mic, maybe you jump out of an airplane, you know, don't saw off your own arm. That I think, unless you have to. Unless you have to. And what's courageous for you isn't necessarily what's courageous for somebody else.
Speaker A: Absolutely. And what's courageous, not courageous for you, may be courageous for somebody else.
Speaker B: Exactly.
Speaker A: You know, we could go on about this for a long time, understanding more of being courageous with examples of people, time and time again of doing it, you know, watching and listening to the great W. Mitchell speak over the years that I've known him and the challenges he had to go through, losing use of his entire lower body and then, uh, getting burned over his body, all those things come into play and how you don't give up. You know, there's always Hope. At the end of the tunnel, we stop and think about it. We don't want to give up on things like that. We want to take that chance, take that risk. Some of my mentors have always asked me the question, what would you do if you knew you could not fail?
Speaker B: I love that.
Speaker A: And when you think about that, if I know I couldn't fail, what would I do? And then, okay, I might fail at it, but now I can still do it.
Speaker B: Exactly.
Speaker A: And that's what it is.
Speaker B: It's okay to suck at something, too.
Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Uh, I always tell people I was in the part of class that made the upper half possible. So, Lewis Cast, how can people reach you?
Speaker B: They can reach me by going to the courageinside dot com.
Speaker A: That is the Courage inside dot com.
Speaker B: Yes.
Speaker A: Okay.
Speaker B: They could send me an email directly, Louis. The courageinside.com.
Speaker A: okay, they can.
Speaker B: I'm promoting my YouTube channel. It's the courage inside TV.
Speaker A: Okay, these, uh, links in the notes for everybody.
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, scroll down to the links.
Speaker A: Mhm. Down below. Right. We go like that. All right, Louis, it's been great. We can keep going for a while here, but I want to try and keep, uh, everybody's timeline in mind. Thank, uh, you very much for joining us on the Teamwork Advantage. You know, folks, when you listen to the Teamwork Advantage, you get an idea of things that you can start to use yourself. And I think the biggest thing Louis gave us today was, you know, take a chance, go out there, work for yourself, Try it. Whatever you think you can do, go out there, fail. Because every time you fail, you get closer to one step, closer to a Yes, I know the great Tom Hopkins used to teach that in sales training over the years. So listen to the Teamwork Advantage and just remember when you do listen to this, you know you're not average. And I always tell people good days are for average people. So when you listen to the Teamwork Advantage, we know you're not average. So go out and make today and every day excellent and exceptional. Till next time with our next guest on the Teamwork Advantage, Be sure to make your day excellent and exceptional. And reach out if you've got needs for your team anytime. Take care. Bye. Bye. You've been listening to the Teamwork Advantage with Greg Gregory. To learn more about how Greg can help your organization develop a powerful winning culture, visit teamsrock.com that's T E A M S R O C K dot com. Be sure to join Greg next week when he interviews another exciting and powerful thought leader on the teamwork advantage. Until then, as Greg said, make sure you have a great week because a good week is just being average.
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