The Future of Money Movement: Can Web3 Finally Replace the World’s Payment Rails? With XDC Network

This is The Shift, the podcast featuring business leaders on the tech that's transforming the future. Presented by Danny Levy. Most people think that payments have already been transformed. You tap your phone, money moves instantly, everything feels seamless.

But under the surface, the global system that actually moves money across borders is still slow, fragmented and built on decades-old infrastructure. At the same time, a new layer is emerging. Blockchain, stablecoins, tokenization, promising to completely rethink how money moves globally. The question is, is this real change or just noise?

This is the shift where we unpack the technology reshaping how business actually works. And today, we're getting into one of the biggest shifts happening right now, the future of global money movement. And today, I'm joined by Santosh, who's the head of payments at XDC Networks. Santosh, great to have you here on the show.

Thanks, Danny. Likewise, it's always great to be with you. So, Santosh, would you be able to quickly introduce yourself and what it is you're doing at the moment for XTC Networks? Yeah, sure, sure, Danny.

Hey, all listeners. Hi, good morning, good afternoon, good night, wherever you guys are. I am currently heading payments at XTC. Before XTC, I have been in the payment space for about two decades.

Erstwhile started my journey in the payment industry as a Web2 expert, which means like moving in money using banks, Nostro, Westeros, Swift as a mechanism. It's been now five, six years that I latched on to the new wave, understood that the shift is happening. By the way, like a great topic and like a great term used shift, which we are going to be using it repetitive. So listeners, sorry, shift is like quite relevant in this discussion.

So, yeah, I mean, I got to, you know, feel the shift which is going to happen. There was a new wave of payment which is coming in. So equip myself, like, you know, got on all the necessary wherewithal with me to get onto the Web3 side of payments. And now I feel like, you know, I am someone who tries to bridge the gap between the traditional financial system and the new age payment system.

That's the same thing that I do at XDC where, you know, I'll give you like a short description about what XDC does and like, you know, what's the role of XDC within this entire ecosystem. XDC acts as a settlement layer from a liquidity standpoint where we give on-chain settlements to companies, PSPs, anyone who has license, who can move money based on their license in a regulated framework. We give them the blockchain technology, which is then backed support by Stablecoin. And within Stablecoin, we again work with the regulated Stablecoin, which is USDC Circle, which is natively available on our chain.

That's what my role in brief encompasses and what, you know, XDC does, like, you know, from a payment standpoint in this entire thing. Fantastic. Well, just before we get into, I guess, the main conversation, we're going to have more of a rapid fire ice break around. Okay.

Just so the listeners can get to know you a little bit better. So let's try and keep the answers relatively concise, if that's okay. Are you ready for the opening round? Yes, certainly, yes.

Fantastic. Okay, so are you a morning person or a night owl? Preference is a night owl, but off lately the demand has been shifted to be a balanced, especially to cater to the global economy and the global markets that I serve. Preference, night owl, but shift towards a balanced person off lately.

One word to describe Web3 right now. Transitional because it's in the moment, it's in the move, it's latching on, it's like catching up. Lots to be done. So transitional is one word for me at this point in time.

And what do you think is the most misunderstood thing about crypto or blockchain right now? Quite difficult to be concise, but I'll try and do it. So look, I mean, crypto is just not a volatile asset class. It has got like various legs and faces to it.

infrastructure, payments, RWA. There is a lot to crypto. Then just saying that, you know, like I invested and I became a millionaire or like I just got down. So it's just not an asset class because which is what is being seen.

There are various legs to crypto, which is what everyone should be aware about. Check the regulations respectively in the jurisdictions that they live and, you know, get informed more better. And what's one thing traditional banks get right? Wow, that's quite difficult because banks usually get right on many aspects, not just one aspect.

Risk, compliance, trust, settlement, many more things, which banks usually have been getting it right. And I'm sure that they will continue to get it right. What's your favorite place you've worked from recently? In terms of location, Dubai.

I've spent a good amount of time, and that's one of the best places. And in terms of infrastructure, in terms of brand, in terms of company, XDC definitely gives you the leveragement of having the leadership in an entrepreneurial style, which is what I like, to drive things in your own way and to make the most of what you have built and what you are passionate about. So, XDC and Dubai. I like it.

Very cool. So, you already made it through. Easy. got through the icebreaker round yeah thank you i hope it was concise didn't even break a sweat so um i guess we're recording live from the the money 2020 asia show floor here in bangkok day two yes how have you found the show so far how's it been for you other than injuring your knee which you mentioned earlier before we went live yeah how's it going that was little kind of icebreaker for me i wasn't sure like how energetic i would be because of the pain and because of being formal so yeah i mean uh danny i mean this is like you know year two for me in fact the third time that i've been participated in money to newton the first one when you guys started in singapore and then there was a covid break yeah and then this is the third year i feel it's evolving it's increasing uh one uh you know thing about money 2020 is what i feel is that you know i uh get repetitive users but and audiences but at the same time there is always something new there are participants which i get to meet interact which i haven't met them in the last year which are off radar from my internet search from my bd guys reach there is someone who pops in and you know it's like hey i had not heard about this company but good like to meet you and bump into you at money 2020 so that's something which i always look forward at money 2020 in fact last night in one of the networking dinners.

I also found one of the bin sponsors, which we are looking in for our card program. I had not heard about them. So yeah, it's always good to know more companies, more players, startups, regulators. You guys have also done a great job from a regulator standpoint, which you have started this year.

Too much of information and great one, which is being shared. And most importantly, clarity is given in terms of if you want to latch on to this, this is what you should be doing. And this is what you shouldn't be doing. So in all, a great place.

Is there a way to ever replace, do you think, the power of in-person? You know, these in-person meetings, conversations. I know trust is so important in the kind of financial services industry as well, right? And you only ever really can build trust often by meeting people in person, right?

We talk a lot these days about technology and AI replacing humans and agents. But I just wondered what your thoughts were around, you know, the power of that kind of more human connection and relationship building and getting business done. Yeah, I mean, my thoughts are hybrid, inclined towards like, you know, being like a necessity of the human in touch. No matter, you know, you might be talking to each other over phone or video calls like over the year.

It's like quite important and it's quite impactful, important and impactful both. when you meet in person, when you understand the person, because the person is the one who is representing the product or the brand or the company. So it's always good to meet, to understand, and to take decisions. Just like between us, right?

We meet maybe twice a year, but then it's always good to meet twice a year. It is, absolutely. You can't replace it, right? And you get much more focused time as well, right?

Where you meet someone in person, and you can look them in the eyes and have a conversation, sit down and have a coffee. yes yes then when you follow up afterwards yes online again you've you've had that human touch point it makes everything go a lot more smoother generally yes i also personally believe that you know you get a little bit more serious and you're not that formal uh when you like meet someone in person versus like you know you are like you know sipping your coffee over a screen yeah yeah maybe your pet or your uh 10 year old kid coming in and waving from behind So this becomes really little more formal which helps in the impactfulness which I spoke about Agreed.

Okay. So if we get into, I guess, the kind of more main conversation, I guess, from your perspective, what do you think is the most important kind of shift happening right now in your part of the industry? And maybe it might be something people aren't paying attention to or something you're working on, but just kind of really interested to see what you think is that biggest shift happening right now. So I would rather break this down into a few areas in terms of where all the shift is happening and how it's impacting the end user, the regulators, the business guys, everyone together.

One of the biggest shifts which I feel is happening, It's happening from a delayed payment mechanism to a real-time mechanism where the technology is helping. There are various aspects in payment which comes in. One of the biggest aspects is liquidity. When someone sends dollars to Philippine or Peso or to Dirhams or to INR, that money actually never moves in.

You've got to keep your accounts funded with some other money and then you've got to do the settlement later on. So there is where the delay occurs or it acts as a cost to business in the traditional and in the ongoing payment mechanism which is happening at this point in time, which is what is breaking. With Web3 supported by stable coins, wherever it's regulated, wherever it's permissible to do business with, I would take example of Philippines where we work with major players.

this is like you know one of the biggest shift that I've seen that happened that you know the money is moving faster the money is moving at a very low cost and the money is moving in more efficiently for businesses and for the end users both and is this really about you know because we talk a lot about the current system right the swift system and people say you know it works you know you can still send money and it's fine and there's cross border payments and things happen And, you know, is this about really replacing that system completely, doing away with it in the not-too-distant future?

Or is it about augmenting what already exists, perhaps? I just wondered your thoughts there. I mean, quite clear and, you know, quite straightforward. It's always about augmenting.

It's about complementing. You cannot, like, replace something which has been an age-old system, which has been, like, the root and the base of the entire payment mechanism. This is just complementing. complementing this is just like you know adding value uh to the same users you know in the same mechanism uh because uh you know while we say that you know stable coin based transfers you know i'll i take this opportunity and just explain a little bit in clear in terms of you know how actually this happens and why the traditional mechanisms will still be in place and always will be in place okay so stable coins are just used as collaterals right i mean they are just used as collaterals between let's say dollar and Filipino peso where both entities come in from their respective banks go out with their respective banks or wallets or whatever could be the end you know last mile connection that they would want to achieve so both ends remains the same people will continue to bank they will have their money in banks in between the transaction would be taking place with the help of blockchain technology supported by stable coins therefore it will be always complementing it will always go hand in hand and it'll go quite far with that point of view.

Got it and so you in terms of XDC where you sit in the stack you would see yourself kind of sitting alongside something like Swift as complementary building on top of it as that kind of foundational layer because I know you also offer you know traditional transactions with the XDC network as well right so you give customers choice. Yes. Yeah I just wonder if you could expand on that. At XDC like we operate as an interoperable platform, which means that, you know, if you want to route the money using the Swift mechanism, Swift XDC also enables ISO 20 or 22 messaging layer, which is built on the core XDC blockchain protocol, which could be used by banks, because that's typically only used by Swift network.

That's something, you know, which you can opt for. And if you would want to go in for the Web3 layer, which is like, you know, you would want to make use of stable coins in between, which are again natively available on XTC network, which is USDC, which I spoke previously, you have the option. So it's interoperable. It's the choice that we give to our clients, the audiences, and therefore it's complementing.

It's never like competing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess as we mentioned, we're sitting here on the show floor at Money 2020, and we're sitting actually quite close to our new area, our intersection space, which is all around this convergence right between traditional finance and decentralized finance i guess you had the the web three players that kind of started you know on on one side of the coin and then you had the traditional finance players you know at the opposite end but what we're starting to see now right this convergence between the two not so much web three but maybe web 2.

5 you know meeting in the middle in that space um we've written a book actually recently at money 2020 as well all around the intersection and what we're seeing happen in the area as things like blockchain become much more mainstream. And we're seeing, right, Swift is exploring blockchain at the moment. You've got the traditional card players exploring it. So I guess, how do you think about that?

Where does XDC plug into this kind of new reality? So as I mentioned earlier, XDC has got multiple product lineups. XTC has got like multiple legs and roles to play within this. It gives an interoperability option to banks, to fintech players, to licensed entities, whether you would want to move money using Swift mechanism or, you know, latch on to the Web3 rails.

And as you said, there are like clients and partners who are like, you know, in between where out of like a million dollar, you know, 500,000 would be moved and using the Swift network and the remaining would be moved using Web3. So actually, it's not 2.5. I would say it's 2.

75 now. Because the same client also, I mean, we will touch upon regulation, which I'm hoping you would like, you know, come to me in terms of how important this is, which is very critical. So it all underlines and the basis regulation. But if the regulation is clear, there are hybrid clients who are latching on to, you know, both the sides in terms of taking in the Swift network and taking the XTC technology advantage or going onto the Web3 and taking the stablecoin within the network advantage that XTC has to give to its audiences.

Got it. So if we bring this to life a little bit for the listeners, it would be great if maybe you could share some real examples of how this is playing out today. So how do you see customers using blockchain, real-time transfers? How are they solving problems that their business is facing with the XTC platform and network that you offer?

There have been exporters who have been coming to XTC, an exporter which is currently we've been doing transactions, which is export of certain consumer durables goods from Singapore to Peru. So because of language barrier, because of time difference, because of banking difference, these exporters often were facing challenges of getting in money for the goods that they were like settling okay so the timelines that they were getting in their money for the goods like which were being sold was about five to five to six days or i think seven days also they had touched upon they were the one who were using xdc technology as a blockchain layer and they were the one who got migrated from the erstwhile technology into Web3.

So what now currently happens, the exporter comes in, okay? He pays in, you know, SGD, okay, which is the local currency in Singapore. That gets converted into USDC on XDC. That USDC on XDC goes to Peru, okay?

And then it again gets converted into the local Peru currency. so at both ends you know the exporter and importer okay they have got settled in their local currency their cash flow is not impacted and from five to six days it's come down to i think three to four hours depending on the banking channels depending on the credit depending on the amount there are various factors there cannot be always said that within a minute or within uh like you know instantly but like yeah i mean three four hours is also to me near instant okay a product so this This is one real-life example which I personally feel is utilized by a lot of exporters and importers, which is currently breaking down the cost, timelines, and efficiency using USDC and XTC as a settlement layer and a liquidity provisioning as well.

Got it. So, I mean, you're seeing more cases like this as well. Are you every single day, week, month? It's already playing out, right?

Yeah this is like one example I went into granular just to help you know so importer exporter might get changed with two businesses at two ends like you know money to new Asia wants to do to do some settlement with Money2022 Europe or like US Okay you guys have like global coverage Okay, so you guys would be our next customers in terms of like, you know, making us like one payment and then we making like, you know, 100 payments out of that one payment. Okay, so it's like bulk into multiple.

So it could be anyone. Importer-Exporter was just one example that I took. But that could get replaced with businesses like yours. it could be p2p transfers which is like someone sending money from you know ua to philippines the remittances the cross-border payments the legs would change the mechanism would change and as per the mechanism and legs the format would change but the basic thought would remain the same of moving in money from one country to the other country is what i you know tried and summarized through this import export example that i gave you you're listening to the shift with Danny Levy discover more on the website the shift talks.

com great that you can be so fast right great that it can be real time in the current system there are like obviously checks in place you know it can be slow but you know if you're sending a large amount say cross-border you know often there'd be like 24 hour 48 hour check right in place if you've done something wrong or there's been a cyber attack or fraud and someone sent it you know not in your name you're able to maybe stop that transaction claw it back um whereas i guess on blockchain you know that real time transfer once it's gone it's gone right often so you know or if it's it's difficult to get by i just what was i just wonder what your perspective was there because you know you've also got to balance I guess trust with speed and efficiency so I just guess you know how do you see that yeah I mean it's equally balanced okay I mean blockchain technology as you have been hearing and which is the fact it's like more secured more scalable like you know more rigid more robust okay which is what blockchain technology like you gives you the advantage in terms of like building trust in terms of like doing the checks compliance is something which is inevitable right i mean you do transactions whichever way or whichever mechanism uh if danny has to give his like ssn or he has to give his emirates id he has to do it i mean you can't skip it like if you want to give your business papers you got to do it like so at both ends the check and balances remain same it added it adds a layer of more security because it's new the regulators also see it from a microscopic lens for which there are added security on the web3 site so it's equally balanced you know and there are like you know no shortcuts or like there are no add-on advantages when it comes to compliance which will or risk which will impact you know the ability or which will impact some kind of malfunctions in the transactions because it's a new age technology because it's quick and instead of five days it's happening in one hour so therefore like you know let's not take the papers let's process the transaction we'll see later, nothing of that sort happens, right?

You have to abide by the regulations, the compliance, the way it's happening for any other traditional transfers because at the end, it's just the same transfer happening. The user is still coming in from his bank, right, and going out into his bank. So it's the same thing. In fact, much more robust and much more advanced is what my thing is on this particular question.

Got it. So the benefits are there, right? We know the advantages. I guess if it's so compelling which you paint a very very compelling picture why hasn't it taken off yet I guess to the scale that maybe people expected or why isn't it moving quick there's lots of talk around things like stable coin the advantages they bring but we're not seeing it make that mainstream breakthrough and really disrupt the more traditional rails and networks I agree to your point you know the first point and the first answer to this would be as i mentioned earlier it's transitional it just started you know it's growing okay and it's you know ever evolving from the time it started off okay the second point to this is that you know there is also regulation which is a very important and a vital element to this entire piece how it plays and when it plays so unless and until like the regulatory clarity is not there in the given jurisdiction or in the country things would take time and rightly it should i mean to me because you know at the end it's someone else's money who's which has been facilitated by players like you know someone who has licenses or someone who's in between so regulation also is like you know trying to compliment trying to come along it has already come along in many of these countries where the transactions are moving in but post regulation clarity also there is this element of inertia element of risk which i respect with you know entities with companies who are like you know using or which have not still latched on you know to answering your point you know why it's not like a rapid fire thing because everyone is cautious everyone is like you know and wants to consume the risk in a better way.

Yeah, and you mentioned regulation there, right, as well. Does a lot of this come down to regulation actually just catching up with the technology? Is that fair? Or, you know, obviously we've got to make sure the checks are in place, you know, that we don't move too fast, right, and things break.

But, you know, Singapore, for example, has got quite clear framework. Japan is very progressive. Hong Kong is taking a good lead, right, in the region in Asia, but other countries clearly still... UAE, Philippines.

Yeah, obviously, UAE. All of these guys have advanced. Just wondered what your thoughts were there. So, I mean, to me, regulation isn't catching up.

It's already at par, like what the technology is currently there to produce. So technology gives a question and regulation answers it, okay? But many of the times I feel in the New Age world that we are living in, regulation is at par. I mean, they know what to anticipate from New Age technologies, for which you know whatever growth you have seen so far to me it's like rapid growth i mean we really don't have much of stats and data you know how it was like 100 years back you know how actually the traditional cross-border payment evolved and you know how much time it took for a fintech for an end user to stop going to a bank and to download an app and to send money through that app okay that also had its own inertia and that also took its own time but there was like a support there was like a huge element of backing by regulations which it latched on uh you know to the new age system which is what i'm hopeful in this era also that there would be regulation which will support and i would say it's at par with technology you know or maybe about technology at this point in time for which they are able to produce in such faster way you know do you see this almost like maybe the kind of more the ways we're doing things now predominantly is a little bit still like maybe kind of more traditional newspaper or magazines, right?

And then you saw how things changed so rapidly with that kind of democratization of information, the web, social media, you know, and it shifted more to a free model, right? Where, you know, you're obviously the product with the advertisements on social media, but you're able to consume information freely, you know, it's information. And actually that old way of kind of consuming information is pretty much gone now, right? I think most of us get it online, you know, get it through free sources, get it on social media.

Do you almost see that as that shift that's happening? Do you think that, you know, almost this shift to blockchain stable coin, you know, actually will be the new way in terms of almost that democratization? And the old way will be like newspapers and physical print or is it simplifying it too much? Yeah, no, no, no.

I mean, you got it right. I mean, my take on this that, you know, it's like about the examples from a newspaper to a digital version of a news on social media can be really, you know, adopted faster. But when it comes to money, I mean, no matter what like product you launched, it has to be carefully thought through. Therefore, definitely it's going to change.

That's going to be the new phase of like how money will be moving in. But this is something, you know, which I would not be, you know, 100% confident about. how much of a time it took from a normal newspaper to a social media. That's the time that it would take for the traditional system to completely be on the new network.

And to me, in many ways, I feel that it shouldn't also be that fast because if we move it at that pace, we might just lose some checks and points in between. At the end, it's about money, right? I mean, that's what... It's very personal.

Yes, very personal and one of the most important things, if not the most important things. Absolutely. Maybe not the most important, yes one-off one-off one-off we're sat at a money conference so yes it's up there yeah um and so interesting in the area right you know that there's things now like um crypto cards and you know there's new use cases around things like retail um interesting how does that work in in in practice so how do you how do you transact in say crypto with a with a card you know how would someone go about doing that Oh well yeah I mean actually I mean thanks for you know bringing this question up because that also reminds me of one slippage which happened from me in terms of telling you the exact lineup of XDC products.

I mean, we got like deviated into some other discussion. But yeah, first, let me explain you, you know, how a crypto card or like a crypto-backed card would work. So typically, and what are the advantages and how XTC plays a role and what are our real life examples that we are already live in market. Let's take like, let's break it down simply, you know, in a layman's language, as you, you know, hinted me earlier.

So Danny travels to Singapore, Danny travels from Singapore to UAE, to US and to Thailand very frequently. Typically, you use your credit cards. You know, you these markets are no longer cash markets. As you said, like, you know, slowly things are moving in.

And historically, how typically you used to carry, used to go to a Forex exchange and used to carry your cash and convert it. Now that's gone and you've been using your credit cards, okay? And you've been tapping your cards, which have the ability to internationally spend and convert and your backend takes care of it between banks, okay? Or between your credit card companies or your fintech, whatever you're using.

So this is what you've been doing or this is what like, you know, normal me or like anyone else is also doing in the card market. And that charges, if you calculate, it's about 5% to 6%. If you spend $100 or if you spend $100, you will be charged 5% to 6% more for the conversion charges for all of these back-end charges. This is what the current credit card market is for users who travel internationally and who wants to make use of their money in jurisdictions apart from their own homeland.

And specifically for micropayments. This isn't about investing into equity market, into real estate, into buying a car. This is about going to Starbucks and having a coffee, right? Or having a sandwich or watching a movie or buying a pair of jeans for micropayments typically.

So there is where it comes in quite handy and quite efficiently where your stable coins, which are pegged to a dollar, is an entry point to these cards, powered by the likes of Master Visa. and once those stable coins are converted, those stable coins get converted into a currency which is backed by a bank and a licensed issuer and a bin sponsor. And then that currency is utilized across all the country wherever you have the card program, which means wherever there is MasterCard and Visa, you could use this card.

And this happens typically in about 1.5 to 1% depending on the vision of your business, depending on what pricing you want to keep. It's like from 5% to 6%, I give you a rational and like clear differentiator of 1% to 1.5%.

And that can still go low. Like for example, XDC's current card program, we don't charge any percentage fees. We just charge like a small flat fee of about $15 annually. And that's it.

Like you are free to load your stable coins, which is on XDC network, so that we take care and there are no intermediaries. and it's our token, which is USDC on XDC. And then you are like happy to use... I'll actually buy an extra pair of jeans.

Yes. Maybe once a month. I was going to ask for the phone, but then you said it for jeans. Very good.

So I guess if we zoom out a little bit and we think about kind of, you know, how money has evolved over time, I guess we talked about that newspaper analogy, but where would you say we are in the journey right now? I know you said we're at that kind of Web 2.75 stage, more in your opinion. I guess, where are we right now?

And, you know, what role do things like CBDCs play in this? And, you know, how do you see potentially this playing out, you know, maybe in the nearer term future? So in the near future, you know, I see this growing. I see this catching up.

Like the countries that we already mentioned in our conversation have already caught up to it. and there are transactions and there are like, you know, things happening using Web3, more and more countries would get added to this list, okay, as per, you know, their own certain regulations where CBDC comes in play, where every country can launch their own stablecoin version so that they can regulate, they can monitor, they can make use of that stablecoin on the blockchain network in a more efficient way if they don't want to latch on to something which is not, you know, developed, but not executed and not produced by them.

So it would certainly play a big role in the near future. That could be the answer to more countries which currently have not yet latched onto this technology. But it would be definitely ever-growing is what my take on this is. And if we think longer term, maybe not the near future, if we think three to five years down the line, are there winners and losers in this whole scenario?

Do traditional players struggle? Do banks adapt? What happens in the longer term futures, do you think? I mean, no, I would rather want to be positive on this.

There won't be any losers in this because you eventually latch on to the newer technology. You are in this business of payments. All the payment companies, all the guys who are in cross-border payments or in card programs and all have now Web3 as a lineup of product with them, which is what they have advanced. they have equipped themselves, they have, you know, got the additional layers of regulations to, you know, give this to the audiences and the users, which is what I feel, you know, will be the next wave and the next stage where, you know, it will be complementing, it will be, you know, adopting the newer technology and not like, you know, absolute in terms of like, you know, going away, won't be like cassettes and CDs into iPods and, you know, the new age music that we've been hearing.

and just before we close it would be great Santosh if you could just share you know maybe one life or kind of leadership lesson from your journey with the listeners just as we kind of round out maybe something that's kind of shaped how you think today you know how you think about the space but yeah would just love if we could end the conversation there sure I mean just to summarize you know of whatever we have spoken you know it's about like new age technology it's about something which we are all catching up and which we all are you know gangu about futuristic about my take you know is you know every business every entity has to be like extra cautious when it comes to regulations they need to abide by whatever regulatory norms are it shouldn't be too fast and it shouldn't be too slow either It should be balanced.

It shouldn't be in a rush of like, you know, FOMO element of being missed out and in a rush doing something. So well read, you know, right kind of talent being available for your businesses is quite vital to latch on this technology. And, you know, taking into consideration that at the end it's money business. So it should be handled from that lens.

And your regulators at both ends needs to be kept informed. and you need to follow the instructions, whatever have been given. It's one of the most important element, you know, what I feel. I felt that, you know, I should be summarizing because I really went with the flow in the last 45-odd minutes while talking.

So it sounds flowery, etc., but it all should be grounded. It should be, you know, within the limits and within the set rules. Fantastic.

And how can the listeners get in touch if they want to find out more about you or about XTC Networks? so quite aggressive in the new age social media world which we just touched upon so XTC payments, XTC core is available to the likes of LinkedIn, Twitter everywhere like you just like you know Google out and we are here like you know to help, to answer to get in touch with you know prospects, businesses social media is like the best way to reach out. Fantastic well really really enjoyed the conversation thank you for coming on the shift and joining me on the podcast and if you want to get more information about the shift just head to the shifttalks.

com sure Danny thanks thanks likewise it was great me having here and giving me the opportunity to explain about the XDC line up of products and how future holds for both XDC and for everyone else exciting times very exciting times if you want to find out more get in touch with Santosh go to XDC to get more information. And I'll see you on the next episode of The Shift. Thanks for listening. Thank you, everyone.

Bye-bye. The Shift with Danny Levy. Thanks for listening. Subscribe to hear more leaders shaping the future of business technology and the way the world moves.

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