Why every school needs a SENCO on the senior leadership team with Lisa Pinkerton

Speaker A: Welcome to the cencast. My name is Dale Pickles. I'm the host of the CENCAST and I'm also the managing director of B Squared. If you are a new listener, then welcome. Welcome to the Sendcast. The aim of the podcast is simple. We want to reach lots and lots

Speaker B: of people and help everyone learn, um,

Speaker A: more about special educational needs and disability. In this episode, we discussed why every school needs a Senko on their senior leadership team. And I was joined in this conversation by Lisa Pinkerton, the head of education at Widget Software. Lisa is a former primary school teacher and deputy head, and Lisa's passion lies in developing personalised learning journeys to meet the specific needs of children with send. Lisa's firm belief is that if we consider all potential barriers at the point of planning, we can give pupils a toolkit of support that enable them to fully access the curriculum and, and feel truly included. The sendcast is created by us here at B Squared. Eversense is our evidence of learning and parental communication system. It feels like social media, so it is extremely easy to understand and use for staff and parents, but it is extremely secure. It's a safe place to share evidence of learning, whether it's photos or videos with parents or external professionals. It's a great way to capture pupil voice or use as your homeschool diary. Visit the B Square website to find out more about Eversense or click on the Meeting M link in the show Notes to book a meet with me to take you through Eversense and, um, what it can do for you.

Speaker B: Now, let's get on with that podcast. My guest this week is Lisa Pinkerton, the head of Education at Widget Software. Lisa is a former primary school teacher and deputy head, and Lisa's passion lies in developing personalized learning journeys to meet the specific needs of children we send. Lisa's firm belief is that if we consider all potential barriers at the point of planning, we can give pupils a toolkit of support that enable them to fully access the curriculum and. And feel truly included. Welcome to the show, Lisa.

Speaker C: Thank you, Dale. Nice to be here.

Speaker B: You are welcome. And I'm loving the background, of course.

Speaker C: Very widgety. I wouldn't be without it.

Speaker B: So the Senko is a crucial role in schools, but it's never really given the status it deserves. And it has been a recommendation for years that the Senko should be on the senior leadership team, but it is still just that, a recommendation.

Speaker C: M. Yep. Yep. But I think I'm, um, cautiously optimistic about the direction of travel. If I'm honest. When you look at, um, the White paper, the proposed reforms, when you bring into account as well the Ofsted inspection framework and everything else, it's pretty clear that inclusion belongs to everyone, I think, in everything. Not, you know, all stakeholders in a school, not that I'm a fan of that word, but teachers, teaching assistants, senior leaders, governors. And if an inclusion strategy depends solely on a senku in a school, that's just not sustainable. And also it's not possible because they need to be able to lead and coach and influence and help to develop others. And that can't just be done as a bolt on, that has to be done as an integral part of the whole strategy of the school.

Speaker B: Definitely one of the things I really like, and you've said the Ofsted word already, so we can.

Speaker C: I'm sorry, I can only apologize to

Speaker B: have a problem with Ofsted, but there's a whole conversation around that. But one of the things, um, with the new office inspection framework I really like is it really makes it clear that the SEND isn't just the responsibility of the senko, it is a responsibility of every single leader. Um, and I did have Ofsted on it was kind of, if your school fails their inspection, although I think it's fair, is not the correct term anymore, um, due to send, it's probably not the senko's fault, it's the other leaders not picking up their aspects of send and dropping the ball there. So if you are a senko and maybe you after doesn't go too well, I, uh, guarantee it's not your fault. It's, as you said, the influence that stressed strategic leader, the direction of the school, that's the barrier.

Speaker C: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I mean, the Ofsted framework, it doesn't explicitly state that Senco should be on the senior leadership team, but it does say very clearly that through their leadership status within the school, they, uh, should be there to lead and drive whole school improvement for SEND and have whole school oversight and strategic authority. You know, gone are the days where you've got Senco pulling out groups of children as a bolt on. I mean, a senko working in that way is great for individual pupils, but a Senko with strategic influence can transform the experience of every single child in the school. And I think, quite rightly, as you said, it is the responsibility of everybody and that has to be steered by the leadership team. Um, um, I teach on the best practice network, um, NPQ Senko course, and one of the most useful activities we do right at the beginning is that we, we write down every single stakeholder of school. I said that word again. Every single stakeholder in a school. And um, all of the candidates then have to draw a circle around everybody indicating their circle of influence or their perceived circle of influence. So it's really interesting to see how the sencha is, what size circle they draw around themselves. The bigger the circle, the wider your circle of influence. Um, inevitably the head teacher often comes out with a very big circle and often the senkos don't necessarily see themselves as having that wider circle of influence. But I would argue sitting your senko alongside your head teacher or part of that strategic leadership team just widens that influence and just makes that conversation about inclusion the heart of every conversation that happens in school.

Speaker B: It's interesting that circle of influence and that saying the senkos don't feel they have that influence. They probably don't. And um, that, that ah, how big that circle is is not really defined by the senko. It is defined by the head teacher and their, how much they lead send or how much they, how inclusive they are. How if the senko leads, they just walk out the room because they're not interested, because they've got something else more important. It's, are they saying the same message as the senko? Are they backing up the senko? Are they starting things, saying we're going to do this? And then the senko maybe gives the detail rather than do. To me, that's the sort of thing which helps everyone see how important the Senco role is.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and the national picture currently, you know, um, the, I think it's the national senco workforce um, survey in 2021 said that 2/3 of Sencos were not on the senior leadership team. Uh, more recently, sensible senco said it's improved. You know, 50% of the people in their survey were on the senior leadership team. However, they, they don't necessarily feel that they're part of the strategic thinking. Um, and without that place, the ability to change is limited. Um, from a head teacher's perspective, I've been in quite a unique position actually, because at one time I was a head teacher and a senko at the same time with an acting headteacher, which I had to have some quite interesting conversations with myself. But it put me in a unique position to really understand, you know, headteachers are pulled in, uh, uh, so many different directions. You know, they have the responsibilities of, uh, you know, attendance data. Uh, I'll come back to data shortly. But all of the demands from all of the other people involved in the school, the governors, the promotion, uh, of the school these days, the publicity, all of those things pull you in different directions. And I can understand that M. Sometimes having an effective senko, having an effective send strategy might not to some headteachers, not all the majority of headteachers I've met are very, very inclusive. But to some it might not be that attractive because their perception might be that the better their send strategy, the more pupils with additional needs are going to attract and then the impact on the data and everything else that could happen. But I really firmly believe that if you are planning for inclusion at the outset, you get the curb cut effect. You know, you lower the curb for everybody. You make something accessible and valuable for everybody. My daughter went to a school that had a high percentage of send pupils, a very high percentage of send pupils, and had a reputation for being great with pupils with additional needs. And I think having a daughter who's neurotypical, quite academically capable, a lot of people quite surprised, given my background, that I sent her to that school. But my argument would be a school that is good at meeting children where they are at and addressing their individual needs and supporting them to make progress from their starting points. Well, that means that's going to impact every single child, you know, and they did. They met my daughter's needs amazingly well. And better still, she became a more rounded human being because of it, because she got an appreciation of the different things that different people need to help them.

Speaker B: And that's the thing is there's lots, uh, of talk about with the white paper, this push for inclusion in mainstream settings. And then there'll be lots of parents going, my child couldn't cope in mainstream. And what you've just highlighted there is there are very different types of mainstream. There are mainstream schools where you have to fit the mould. They want those high achievers. It's about the results and so on. And you need to fit in here. And there are other schools which are often those magnet, uh, schools for those send pupils, help every child to achieve. And not just academically, but as you said, your daughter became well rounded.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: In all those different, those softer skills, that understanding that everyone's different, that everyone has their own skills and their own. What they bring to the table, you might not initially see. And actually, you realize over time, actually what that person does bring. But you only get that through experience.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And all those things surely are those skills that we're going to need in the workplace. You know, you need to Go into a workplace where you have an appreciation that everybody might approach things and tackle things in a slightly different way. And how are you ever going to learn that if you are a very sort of single minded, you've come from a school that's got a very single minded curriculum that only really values one style of learning that only really values one approach. How do you learn that everybody approaches things in different ways?

Speaker B: I also think that um, so my, my uh, autistic daughters has gone from secondary school which was pretty much you have to fit in. And she's now and she was getting, I think her, her grades were between 5 and 7 I think. So she got everything she needed to continue on her study. She may have got an eight, I can't remember. She's then moved to college where it's more independent skills. What's asked of her is different. And she's doing to me three horrible subjects which are psychology, sociology and history. So much reading, so much writing, just my idea of hell. But she's absolutely thriving because she has that freedom. But I think partly because I think she didn't necessarily fit in well with how she was expected to do things at school. She had to find a way that works for her. And I do worry when you have these schools which kind of put this conveyor belt system in and you come out the other side, it's do you know what you can do? Do you know how to do things? Or has the school just read it to you on a plate to pass your GCSes and now what?

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: And I think that kind of, that secondary school is getting the grades is obviously important for the next steps in your life and things like that. But those other skills about how you learn your metacognition, your executive function, all these other skills that you need are often necessarily supported or helped to thrive. Um, and it's really, yeah, it's going back to it always. You said with the head teacher you have to find a balance with all your stakeholders, um, and work out what, where you are, where you're going. And it isn't just a case of you can just say we're going to do this. You've got to get the buy in from so many people. It's a really tough job.

Speaker C: Yeah, I totally appreciate that. And I think if I'm honest, I think if we truly want uh, the intentions of the send reforms to work effectively, the whole curriculum will need careful rethinking, a complete overhaul. I know curriculum reforms are in progress, but I think we're so focused within our national curriculum on content. Now, my background's early years. Um, I have a master's in early years. I spent many, many years teaching in early years because once you're in early years you're really thinking about child development and best practice and again, meeting children where they're at and figuring out their next steps in their learning. But also the focus is so much on about how we learn. You know, the characteristics of effective learning underpin everything in early years. So that's about, you know, how do we problem solve, how do we ask questions, how do we socialise, how do we all those skills which you know are going to be really important in the future content. Well, I've very, I've been very well behaved and put my phone elsewhere, but that's unusual. Normally my phone is to hand and, and I can find information at the tip of a finger, uh, you know, the tap of a finger. I need to be able to evaluate that information. I need to be able to think about what I'm reading, why I'm reading it, and also how to have debates and discussions about what I found, you know, effectively. So I need to appreciate how other people may have interpreted that information and um, why, where they come from that makes them think this way or why are they thinking in that way. All of those skills, the metacognitive processes that you talked about earlier, you know, how do I learn, how what works best for me? We don't teach enough of those skills in school. And I'm going to sit here now from Widget and say about visuals, of course I am. I'm not going to not mention the importance of visuals, but I would love to be in a position where they're part of a toolkit, you know, people. A child in school will be able to say, I think having visuals to support me with this will really help me. I would like to see environments where we're thinking about that. We're planning those inclusive practices from the outset. So we're giving people different strategies and different options from day one so that they learn what makes them the most effective learner. And yes, that's a real challenge for headteachers because it's very hard to break a mould, particularly when you've got a lot of pressure from parents who learned in a particular way, are used to particular learning style, used to particular approaches to behaviour management and things, for example, which isn't necessarily thinking about, um, intrinsically motivating factors for behavior. It might be more about the old fashioned sort of extrinsic motivator. I could go down that wormhole, but I won't. But, you know, the head teachers are up against it. They have to be thinking in a different way in the years ahead. I'd really hope that the most successful school leaders are those that aren't thinking about inclusion as something that's competing with this or competing with school improvement and outcomes, but essential to it. Because as I said, you know, when you're thinking about the best ways that someone learns or giving people the opportunity to find out about how they are as a learner, then that just becomes part of excellent, excellent teaching, doesn't it? So the outcomes will come.

Speaker B: Definitely. There is a video of, um, a bloke talking about somebody who wanted to run a certain time and his student and she would, I want to beat this person or this. I don't know if you've seen this video with my really random, bad description, but he was, she was saying, I want to be this person. And he kind of saying, it's not about beating that person, it's about improving yourself. And I think when schools are using like number of X number of nines or all SAT scores as that metric, the starting point has to be high for children to achieve that. And if you're saying, I want to run a marathon in X number of hours, um, but you set your personal best but don't quite achieve it, have you failed? And if you haven't kind of got that nine or whatever, then it's a fail. But it's like, how far have you come? That progress from starting point, which I'm really loving seeing in the new office inspection framework, is so important because there are some children who arrive in early years reading because their parents are fully there doing all the stuff they have to do, blah, blah, blah. Then there are some children who aren't for various reasons that are, uh, either unconscious, no choice, whatever the reasons. And actually, if we measure the progress from that child to where they get to and another they do amazing. But because they're not getting those high grades, because it's. That's the sort of thing that, with the new inspection framework, I'm really hoping people sit there and go, it's not the line we get to. We're not trying to draw a set line in the stand. It's can every person make X amount of progress from wherever they are? Because if they're doing that, that's phenomenal. M. And I think that change in thought process, as you said, changes from actually, we want the best to. And it's not about dropping your standards, it's just changing how you measure it and helping every child to succeed.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And I think. I think, unfortunately, I think when we're still in a position where schools are judged against one another based on their outcomes, that's a very difficult mold to break. I would love, um. I mean, the ideal, and I do feel there is a direction to travel here. I keep saying cautiously optimistic because I don't want to undermine all of the other things that come alongside all the reforms, and particularly, um, the White Paper reforms, but I am cautiously optimistic because I think this conversation is now happening and I think people are moving away from a one size fits all and, um, thinking about universal provision, for example, at the outset, but also, as you said, moving away from. I would love to get to a point where we're moving away from saying, right, this school is excellent because it got, you know, X percentage of children reaching the greater depth standard or expected standard or whatever it may be, and instead move moving towards a system where they're saying, actually they move children on from this point to this point. And isn't that amazing? But better still, I would love to reach a stage where we're actually just being judged on how inclusive we are. You know, this school, I know it's woven throughout the Ofsted framework, so it's there. But wouldn't it be great if that's the way that schools were judged, you know, so that you can. Parents could look at schools and say, oh, this is a school where all children thrive. And it's a school where all children thrive because at leadership level, there's a strategic plan where children are not just seen as, uh, as a group of people, but they're seen as individuals. And sencos are not just seen as people who deal with send and it's over there, but actually as it's strategic partners thinking, how can we accommodate everybody so that everybody can thrive.

Speaker B: Definitely. And now bringing it back to send. And you mentioned the offset inspection framework and that it doesn't say that the Senko should be on the senior leadership team. Um, I would literally be rescuing enough there is in. To achieve the, um, whatever there is replacement for Good. I can't remember the third value, whatever it is, it kind of got in there. To achieve this level, the Senko needs to have the right level of authority.

Speaker C: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: That phrase is to me like, boom. That's a phrase. Now we have not they should be on, but actually it on the senior leadership. It's saying the Senco needs the Correct level authority to make a strategic difference around inclusion in this school.

Speaker C: Absolutely. I think to be really dull and quote it, I think it says a qualified senco is empowered through their leadership status to lead whole school improvement. Something, uh, for pupils with send. So having that whole school strategic oversight and that strategic authority. And pleasingly, you know, I'm delivering on the MPQ senko course. And that is very much the message coming through in the training for the mpk, for the sencos, uh, in their training as well. It's not just about even looking at a case study about an individual child. They're not just there thinking about that child, but thinking about, okay, how can I put some training in place to meet the needs of this individual child that will have an impact on the whole school in the future and will empower my staff in terms of what they can offer for send in general. So, looking from a much more strategic

Speaker B: angle, what I like about that phrase, and well done for remembering it so

Speaker C: well, roughly, I don't quote me on it. It's about that.

Speaker B: It's really quite a clear message. A, uh, head teacher should be able to look at the school and go, actually, is my senko doing that? And to me that should be quite an easy actually send isn't being that. Okay. But then that first bit comes back to, well, have they been given the authority to. Because that's with you. That's with you as the head teacher to have I given my senko that authority?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I like about that phrase, it's not just a recommendation. It is pointing at asking the head teacher to ask the question and then pointing out to them that it's their responsibility to give that authority.

Speaker C: Absolutely. The authority and the time and the space. You know, you only have to look at feedback from any surveys out there at the moment, um, from sencos and how they currently feel in their roles and also just the turnover of sencos enroll currently. It's already a difficult job. So if we really want to make the change, if headteachers really want to make the changes within their school, then they have to give their sencos the time to do so as well as well as the authority. Now that comes with big issues in terms of budget and, uh, you know, I appreciate again, many pulls on people's budgets and time, but that is such an important part. I've done that role. I've been there. I've been the deputy and the senko at the same time. And it's a difficult job to juggle and you know, it can't just be senco sitting in a room, filling in lots and lots of individual learning plans and filling in EHCP paperwork. In a way, it almost has two strings to the role now, doesn't it? It has a strategic role and the administrative side as well. You know, there's food for thought about how that could be managed.

Speaker B: And again, just coming back to that idea, um, about that authority, it's not necessarily about the senko always delivering the information. No, it's them contributing to the English lead and the maths lead. It's so that when that English lead is going, we're going to be doing this, you then don't have the senko standing up six weeks later going, and we're not doing that for oration, we're doing something completely different. Or what they're saying goes against what the English lead is saying. And they're sort of going, well, hang on, who do I listen to? Yeah, it needs to be a continual inclusion by design for every leader.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker C: Um, and it comes back to, you know, send is everybody's issue. Everybody's responsibility. Not issue, actually responsibility. Inclusion is everybody's responsibility. I would say one of the things, an example of something I did, I introduced it in, in my previous role was we completely changed our monitoring proformer. So our monitoring pro forma that we used for everything, you know, all the joys of the work. Trolls, um, learning walks. Yeah. Um, dropping lesson observations. We use the same performer and sometimes that would be me observing in my role as deputy or in my role as inclusion lead. Sometimes it would be the head teacher, sometimes it would be subject leads. And we included a section specifically for inclusion. So we put the three P's on there, participation, uh, presence and progress, so that they were looking out for examples of inclusive practices to include those three Ps. And we also added in, um, I'm going to try. I won't remember all of the Rs, but it was things like how in this lesson has the teacher or how in this book is there evidence of developing, uh, resilience? How is there evidence of adapted resources? How is there evidence of relationships being built? I've given you three of the Rs. I think there were eight. Uh, yeah. So it was encouraging subject leaders to take responsibility for conversations about sense as well as the senko.

Speaker B: That's the thing is, again, when I hear things like that, I, I. Sometimes the senko is doing the senko course and then the new one and, and they're getting the training. But how much training around sen do her teachers get. And that's what I was saying is they're kind of managing someone whose role they don't understand. They don't necessarily always buy into some of the things the senko's saying and the senko's game, we need to do this and it's kind of go. And that's one of the things I, I think there should be more SEND training as part of that head teacher's qualification.

Speaker C: Um, 100 music to my ears. I mean, if, if they've been, um, around in the education as long as I have, which is 26 years plus, uh, their SEND training probably would have been what I was fortunate. I did an education degree, my first degree was education, so I did a lot about child development, I did a lot about psychology of education. But my actual teacher training, my postgraduate certificate, I did half a day on send. So, you know, I was fully equipped to enter the classroom. Now that has improved the ECT framework. SEND is woven throughout the ECT framework. You know, you know, um, adaptive learning strategies are considered all the way through. That's, that's your teachers coming in, which is really positive. Great. And obviously the MPQ Senko, you know, really practical. In fact, I did the Nasenko and I'd say the MPQ Senko is even more practical in terms of support and strategies and, you know, what might arrive on your doorstep and what you can do about it. Head teachers. I've been delighted, actually. A number of the candidates on the MPQ Senko course I'm doing at the moment are head teachers and they have chosen to take themselves onto that training. Great, brilliant. But what if it was just part of the MPQH M? Yeah, what, what if you know it, surely with the direction of travel right now, surely it should just be part of that by default.

Speaker B: That's the thing is, again, going back to. You talked about there's two threads that are strategic and there's the admin. And I'm going to say the admin is the EHCP world. And when we talk about that initial, uh, teach training or the early careers, there is this, as you said, adaptive and all that sort of stuff. But how often is the EHCPs, how much is that covered? How much is the fact that the day one, you're, uh, going to start in your school, you're going to be an NQT and there's probably going to be two or three children in your class with an ehcp. Off you go. And it's. That, to me is a whole other world. That the teachers aren't prepared for. And I think the head teacher doesn't understand that legal responsibility fully. And there's a, on that kind of the admin side, again there's not enough awareness and the senko is trying to be strategic, trying to keep up with the mountain of paperwork and the fact that you have so many days to respond. And if it's new holidays, just it's, it's a really demanding job that no one else in the school really understands.

Speaker C: No, I agree and I think some of those things can be improved by um, organizational activities. One of the first things I always used to do as a Senco when I received Disney HCP is to pull out the key, um, information that the class teachers would need and try and put it onto a one page sheet. And that was no mean feat, but it meant that on day one they had like a one page summary. Well before day one actually that would start with transitions in, you know, prior to the summer holidays. But so that they could just have a, an idea of, you know, these are, these are the outcomes, this is what this child is working towards, these are the strategies and have it just on one page because nobody has time to read more than one page. That's my theory. If it doesn't fit on a page of A four, which was tight sometimes I can imagine some of my ex colleagues watching this or listening to this now thinking sometimes didn't quite make the one page. But I tried my best to get

Speaker B: it from one page smaller and smaller and smaller until it did.

Speaker C: Yes, yeah, but teachers don't have time, but they want to do the right thing. I do also strongly believe going back to, you know, what is there as ordinarily available provision, much of what is in EHCPs currently can be, I'm not saying everything, there's an awful lot that are protected in law and important targets that we need to be very, keep a very close eye on. But a large part of EHCPs can also be covered by what's available if we're planning for inclusion at the outset. You know, some things I've seen in EHCP documents, you know, um, a visual timetable. Well if you've just got a visual timetable in your classroom by default, that's step one. And then also that child's gonna be more receptive to having their own individual now next board, you know those, those sort of things can be catered for through good university universal uh, provision. But that comes from training as well. And I am really passionate about making sure our workforce is Skilled and ready to deliver everything that they need to be able to deliver. And that comes back to the training.

Speaker B: So interesting. You talk about the visual timetables and so visuals are seem to be frowned upon. It's sort of like as soon as you get to a certain level we can get rid of visuals. They're bad. Uh oh no, we don't want visuals. I just find it really bonkers because I'm holding up my phone and you probably won't be able to see it. And if you're listening you definitely cannot see my phone. But my phone is uh, my background, uh, with loads of icons on, with loads of colors and I know exactly which uh, color combination is Facebook. I know exactly which shape and color combination is YouTube. I'm not reading the text under, I'm using the symbols. When I look at my calendar I can see different people of different colors on my phone. I get blocks for how long something's going to last. I get lots of simple visual information so I don't have to read.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: We spend our whole life using these symbols. Netflix has a logo, Amazon prime has a logo. Disney plus has a logo style. You generally not reading, you're looking at shapes, you're looking at symbols and using them.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker B: We do it all day to save time to make stuff. When we go to the toilet, when we need a toilet, what do we look for? Hopefully quite a standard male female science. We can understand it. Not some weird thing made out of shells where we're going to. Well what one is that one?

Speaker C: Yeah, we've all been caught out by those Dale.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: We generally looking, we're not looking for the word toilet. We're looking for two symbols.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: Yet somehow for some people the moment they can read, we don't need any of that. And you're like, but we all use symbols.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: Every day.

Speaker C: Uh, I would challenge you to drive to work tomorrow without them. Yeah. Road signs are there. And if we didn't have road signs, can you imagine if you had to interpret the text? Every time you approach a roundabout and you're frantically trying to read the text, we have to have, you know, um, there's obviously numerous theories attached to this. One of which is the picture superiority effect. So the picture superiority effect shows that we process visuals much faster than we process words. Now there are lots of figures attached to that which are all a bit, um, some of which have become um, floated around. But actually the fact is it's different for everybody. Everybody's speed of processing is going to be slightly Different. However, everybody does process visuals faster than words. We know that. And that's partly because, you know, with text, you have to process it one word at a time to make sense of it, whereas you can process multiple symbols at the same time. If you see, uh, a visual, you don't just have a cognitive reaction. If I showed you a picture of a dog, you wouldn't just go, that is a dog. You'd have an emotional response as well. So you're more likely to remember it. And also, it makes things concrete that can be abstract. So if I say to you right now, Dale, if I said the word cell.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker C: Now I've got my idea of what sell means. Tell me what you're thinking when I'm telling you saying the word sell.

Speaker B: Well, I'm in Excel.

Speaker C: You were in a spreadsheet. Oh, interesting. I didn't even think.

Speaker B: I didn't go to a jail cell. I didn't go to a. A plant cell or.

Speaker C: Ah. Uh, I wasn't thinking of that at all. I was trying to sell you something. So, you know, and that's just it, isn't it? All those things are abstract concepts. But if I tiled up a. A symbol to go with it, which had me handing money over, you, ah, would have known exactly which sort of cell I was meaning. So it makes those kind of abstract concepts concrete.

Speaker B: Is a story. I went on a school trip with my daughter to the Land Rover factory, which is Solihull or somewhere my husband works at.

Speaker C: Androsa. Yes.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And it's an amazing. I, uh, literally, my daughter was bored. I was just in. This is so interesting because they've obviously got that conveyor belt of a line, and the cars go along. And because people choose the wheels and the colors that conveyor belt, the car arrives as the wheels arrive. So it's literally like the wheels that arrive, uh, are destined for that car. And this whole production line is just seamless. And to put the wheel, but they all use the same bolts, nice and simple. And they, uh, had part numbers. And you obviously don't pick one up. They're fed. So like a feed thing, which seems like this next one they do, it's automatic. And what they found is people were reading the part numbers and misreading them, putting the wrong bolt in there. And then that whole feed, and it finally gets through to the gun one doesn't work, won't go in. They have to stop the entire production line, empty out every single bolt, restock it. They lose like an hour or, so. What they did Is they got rid of the numbers and put shapes.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Square bolt in this. Pick up that bag of square bag. Yep, yep. With a square on. Pour it down the square. Yep.

Speaker A: Done.

Speaker B: Triangle in that one. They stopped having mistakes.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yes.

Speaker B: We can all read numbers. Yes. But it's so much easier to match a triangle to a triangle and a square to a square.

Speaker C: Absolutely. And, and with, and you know, even fire evacuation procedures, you know, you will have the symbol, the green symbol, and then you'll be expected to follow those green, the same color arrows. Those things are part of our life and an important part of our life. So like you said, going to an airport or, uh, going to a busy place, you're looking for things that are familiar. If they're in a different language, you're looking for things that are familiar, and that's going to be the symbols. And for children or anybody who has difficulty with text, that symbol is going to be their only access to the learning environment or an environment. I would also say, uh, when you're under times of stress as well. You know, we know when we're under stress, you know, your prefrontal cortex is not engaged, the thing that makes all that rational decision making. Your, uh, amygdala's kicked in and, and, and, and panic ensues. But so you, you're not able to make sense of lots of text at that moment. So when you're dysregulated, you're looking for something that you can understand really quickly and easily, and that's where symbols come in as well. But I would also argue, and we've got a saying here at Widget, um, which is, uh, essential for some, beneficial for all. And the benefits of using visuals cannot, uh, be underestimated. There's lots of research about dual coding, for example, that shows that we've got one channel in our brain that processes visuals, one channel that processes verbal information like text or instructions. And when you have the two operating together, you're more likely to retain that information. So symbols can be used really effectively just for everybody for knowledge retention. You know, we used to do pre teaching of vocabulary to everybody, to the whole class. So it just levels the playing field for everybody. They all understand the vocabulary that we're going to be using in the next lesson, and they're more likely to retain it if they've had it as a visual and as, uh, as a text as well, because it's using both parts of the brain.

Speaker B: He goes, I mean, our local hospital, um, the corridors are different colors.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you'll go department. It's all go. Oh yeah, it's this department. It'll be some long random word. It's on the red corridor. So the first thing you're looking for is red before you even get to the long word. I'm looking for red. If I'm on the yellow, I'm not here.

Speaker C: Red.

Speaker B: Oh, there's red. I walked to the red bit. Now I'm looking for that word. It's already narrowed, like got rid of 80% of that hospital. I'm narrowing down my search with just looking for a certain color. Car parks are often different colors, different levels. Yeah, yeah. What color? What color? Green. I'm in the green zone. We're not counting cars. We're just getting us in a rough ballpark with the most limited brain power needed.

Speaker C: Absolutely. I mean even better if that hospital had a symbol to represent each other, uh, each part, each wing of the hospital or each unit and that, you know, we're doing a lot of work here at Widget with organizations actually at the moment who are becoming symbol friendly organizations, which is fantastic. So you've got situations like if you were taking a trip to um, a safari park, you would be able to take a train journey. We're working with a number of stations as well and some of them have already gone through and have been successful and already symbol friendly where you could plan your whole journey with your child. That would be symbol friendly. So we'd know how, even purchasing a ticket, there will be symbols to support the whole journey. Can have a social story attached to it so they know what to expect. And then when they arrive at the safari park, lo and behold, those symbols are there as well. And widget symbols are in, you know, the majority of primary schools already and many other schools too. So having that consistent symbol set from the classroom to their journeys to the outside world, to the environment, isn't that just the dream? Isn't that just the best practice for everybody?

Speaker B: And uh, I think coming back to that strategic role of the senco is, as you said, that universal provision.

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, you've got to be there at the procurement stage and if you're not there at procurement stage and thinking strategically across the whole school, but signage

Speaker B: around the school, all those sorts of decisions send should be involved everywhere. Because you said requirements, some benefit or essential for some beneficial for all.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: And it's not a case of you doing it in the classrooms. It is everywhere. This, it should be kind of, if inclusion goes well, kind of certain phrases we can get rid of. Because it's not needed because everyone is accepted for who they are. We don't have to have this label for this and that label for that. Everyone just gets included. But while we're m on that journey, we do have to use that. But I think the aim is that everyone should be thinking, what am I doing for everyone? Oh, what about them? They don't. They struggle with this. I can do that instead.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Whereas sometimes it's, we're gonna go on a school trip, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, they can't access that. Okay. They never. Anything, let's change the trip.

Speaker C: And I think sometimes we think about the, um, physical aspects of disability, perhaps. And, um, we're thinking about, you know, access to a building in terms of ramps, in terms of lifts, in terms of, you know, things to make it more physically accessible. But what about emotionally accessible? What about from a sensory perspective, accessible? What about, you know, children who might feel overwhelmed by too much information? I think we all, we're all overwhelmed by too much information. So how can we highlight the key information? I only started at Widget in September of last year. And um, of course our kitchens, our kitchen areas are fully symbolized. You would expect nothing less. Which means that I was able to make myself a cup of coffee. Hey. Knew where the coffee was, knew where the sugar was, knew where the tea towel was instantly, because it's all labeled, which was absolutely wonderful. I didn't spend ages opening every cupboard and open, you know, but, you know, it's, uh, a massive how. And one of the things, exactly as you said, wayfinding, signage, labeling. We're providing, um, lots and lots of advice and guidance here at Widget about how you can become symbol friendly not just as organizations, but also as schools. So we've had our first trial runs of our symbol friendly schools go through so far. And they have got all of their labeling, all of the way finding is all fully symbolized because it just helps. Everybody does.

Speaker B: And it's one of those things. And again, being neurodivergent at my daughter is that certainty aspect. So when you talk about being emotionally safe and, uh, it's like, what am I going to see when I get there?

Speaker C: Totally.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So even with journeys, what's the train you look like, what are the seats like? What's the train station gonna be like? It's gonna be rainy. Is there cover? Yeah, just. Or even for people I work with that idea of where am I going, what am m I going to expect?

Speaker C: Absolutely. It's like a visual timetable is standard. You know, in a classroom as far as I'm concerned, because if, if you can reduce anxiety for somebody, then why not do it? You know, it's not going to make it worse for anybody. It can only make it better. And you know, as teachers, we go into a classroom all the time. We, we had a rough, uh, you just, I can't say you always knew exactly what was going to happen through the course of a day, but you did have a plan for the day and you knew roughly what was going to happen. Did the children going into your classroom know that? Well, if they have a visual timetable, they do. So you know, in the best classrooms I've ever been in, it's when the children shout at the teacher and go, you haven't, it still says maths and it's English. No. And then you know that that's used really well in that classroom and the teacher's not just got it uh, up there for decoration, it's actually used and embedded.

Speaker B: But even my daughters at secondary school, they get their timetable which they drew out on paper and then they would color code some. Maths was red and English was green and geography was purple, which meant they could just, without a glance, they just knew. Oh yeah, I've got ink. They're not reading the words, they're looking at the colors. When my daughter with her exams, I printed a thing out which color coded so she knew when the Spanish exams were, she knew where uh, her psychology exam were. Uh, and we could actually say you finish your science, your science, you're never gonna do science ever again. And it was just without reading it, we could look at the colors.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And we do this so much. We do this as adults and I do kind of again a part of it I, I think is this excelling. We don't need this. We, we have this and it's like over complicating things to show that people can. But it's just keep it simple, just keep life simple. Um, there's enough going on that's complicated enough. Um, and again if we come back to that strategic and ascend and the reforms, if we go into the world of inclusion basis or whatever they're called this week, um, the idea of you don't want that inclusion base to be a separate thing where everything is send friendly there and to, to thrive in the rest of the school, you have to deal with it the way it is. Actually I'm going to say the inclusion base should be leaking, um, provision, it should be leaking things into the rest of the school.

Speaker C: Totally.

Speaker B: It works in the provision. It's going to leak out and be adapted elsewhere.

Speaker C: Absolutely. I mean I think one of the things I hope and I'm uh, it's ensuring that inclusion bases are used as supportive interventions, not places where pupils become separated from school life. That shouldn't be what an inclusion base should be. It should be integral as you said, integrated into school life and best practice examples from those inclusion bases should follow through. So you know, there's no point and from our perspective there's no point having beautiful visuals used really effectively, ah, as scaffolds and as um, you know, to support with accessibility um, in the inclusion base if that just isn't followed through in the classroom, it has to be followed through into the classrooms. So great. If best practice does leak from the inclusion base is brilliant. I had the most wonderful nurture lead in my previous school. We worked together to set up um, a nurture space that was, I'm not going to lie, it was outstanding. I was so proud of it. And she, because of her um. But one of the things that she did so effectively was um, when a child had had their nurture intervention, she was very clear that time in nurture was an intervention. She supported the class teachers as they were integrated back into the classroom by giving them the strategies that she had used. She used to produce little postcards with three key strategies that she'd used, three ways of changing the language slightly in a way that would be more um, acceptable to that child. Um, and it was very much a uh, working together process. So it wasn't just like the child was in nurture and then they went back into the classroom. It was all done as a gradual process. And the things that they'd learned in that group about themselves and about what the nurture leader learned about that child was carried over back into the classroom. And that is when inclusion bases can work really, really effectively. There's a danger of them becoming exclusion bases which would be just uh,

Speaker B: a lot of people talk about that. I'm literally going almost. You got to talk about. It's almost like it might m. That's what's going to go. That's the destination. We're going to go down. It's to me is an inclusion based working well is not only the children come in and out but the staff come in and out. Oh yeah, that class, year three teacher where that child's in the inclusion base because they're struggling and they were goes in to see what that child is doing and what they're capable of there.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it's like, right, so this child in the right environment can do all of this, but not doing anything in your classroom?

Speaker C: Absolutely. Uh, but seeing, seeing and. Absolutely right. And that's the other thing we used to do is, you know, free up the class teacher, which was, which is almost like an exchange, which was possible to do so they can actually see for themselves. I mean, I remember watching. I can't. I feel really bad because I'm not going to credit the person for this, but I was. I went to a training event once and they showed, um, a picture of Death Valley and said, you know, this is Death Valley, and talked about how, you know, nothing grows there, uh, obviously because of the climate. Um, and then in, ah, a period of time, they had some flash flooding in Death Valley. And they had just in a certain area and where they had the flash flooding, flowers grew. And it just showed that actually Death Valley wasn't dead. The environment was wrong. And when the environment was adapted and changed, it grew and it came to light. And I just thought what a lovely analogy for inclusion that, you know, it's not about the child, it's about the environment. And if the environment's right, people will thrive.

Speaker B: And what these inclusion bases could be is we have permission to do something different here.

Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. To try things.

Speaker B: To try things. Yeah. We're not going to risk everyone. We're going to try it over there.

Speaker C: Oh, look.

Speaker B: All the things we thought that would work have worked, and it's making a difference. Perhaps we should bring it out over here. What works for send, works for all all those lovely phrases that we've known for years.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Is that often happens in a special school. Miles awake.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: One of the things that inclusion bases is when you see it happening in your school, when you see that child who would not engage or was always disruptive in your lessons, you go see them quietly doing their work and showing you what they've done, you're like, okay, there's something about this environment which is making this child excel.

Speaker C: Absolutely.

Speaker B: And what can I bring back to my classroom to keep this going?

Speaker C: Yeah. So, and you know, it has to be that needs time, that needs training, that needs expertise, and that needs resourcing. So again, coming back to who's making those decisions and why are we making them? So coming back to those leaders, really understanding the purpose of the inclusion base is going to be essential.

Speaker B: Yes. And it is. It's not a, a walled garden, it's not a, uh, large isolation booth. It's not a destination it's where you do things differently to find out what works and then you bring that back into the rest of the school. To me, that is what an inclusion base is about. If you're not going to change, send them somewhere else.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then that's what's kind of happening. Whereas to me, this bringing it into the school is, again, it's like Ofsted not saying you have to put them on the ceiling, but writing it in a certain way, which means the same coach really should be on the senior leadership team. I kind of feel that that inclusion basis is saying, stop pushing these children out because they don't fit you. Work out how you fit them and you adapt. Yeah, but the problem is we've. Schools have been failing children for so long that the parents. It's going to take a long while to get the buy in from the parents.

Speaker C: And, you know, again, I think that can, can come back to, um, having the right people in the right roles and having the right conversations. And it's almost saying, yes. It's acknowledging it, isn't it? I always think when anything goes wrong, the most important thing is to acknowledge it before you can start building. So there's no point pretending everything's been fine. We have to acknowledge that things have not been fine and what we do next. And some of the most effective senkos I know have three things. They have expertise, obviously, but they have empathy. And many have spent many days, weeks, months, years building trust with families and, um, recognizing that behind every sort of report, every referral, every ehcp is a child and a family who are probably navigating some challenges, some big challenges. So, you know, the most effective senchas have both of those things. What they now need is that third thing, influence.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: So they need to have the influence to shape the system, shape the culture and shape the decision making. So going back to those circles of influence I spoke to, I spoke about at the beginning, but a lot of those senchas already have those empathetic relationships with families already that they can build on. So let's start listening to our families and let's start listening to our children about what they need and build from there. But, you know, I don't want to dismiss all of the pressures that schools are under at the moment, and something, somewhere has to give. And I think curriculum reforms are a great opportunity and the way that we assess, it's a great opportunity to open those conversations for change.

Speaker B: I think, um, I've written loads and also recorded episodes on the podcast about, uh, kind of the, the send reforms and the white paper. And I am, um, I am optimistic. Not cautiously, I am optimistic the crucial bit is going to be next spring when that new curriculum is released. That will be the day my. Either optimism will stay or I will just throw it in the bin. Because the curriculum, that's going to be the crucial thing. Reducing that curriculum, having time for the Auric, the um, critical thinking, all those sorts of things requires time. Not a 20 minute, uh, oracy. It's time and these skills that actually just slowing down the curriculum, building relationships, having those conversations. You. It was just so much that, so much resting on the Recurriculum review, um, that that will be the day when that's released and I've read it, I would know we're going in the right direction or it all sounds nice and they've chickened out.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I think, you know, you, you can't keep adding things on to teachers. Yeah. I don't know anybody that went into teaching, um, to be told exactly what they had to do to not have to make any decision making to earn lots of money to, you know, that's not what teachers go in for. Teachers went into teaching to make a difference. I don't know any teacher that didn't go into teaching to make a difference. And everybody wants to make a difference for all the children in their classroom. So the intention is there. The teachers, there's no teacher that goes and going, I don't want to teach any of these kids today. Well, if they, if they are thinking that maybe they do need to sort of rethink their career choices but you know, they go in because they want to make a difference to all the children in the class in front of them. But they are under so many pressures. So those decisions about. Well, I'd like to be able to spend more time with that child and find out more about what they need and I'd like to be able to plan more inclusively and think about inclusive practice, uh, from the outset. But something has to be taken off. You can't keep piling things on top unless you take something away. So some really, really careful decision making about what we take off in order to enable our teachers, empower our teachers to become more, more inclusive by default. It's not that the intention isn't there.

Speaker B: No, it is. It's another thing. I, I'm always that thing. No one intentionally goes into this world. But the pressure they're put under, uh, and people say it's Ofsted, I don't think it's Ofsted. I would say the biggest issue for me is league tables.

Speaker C: M. Yeah, I would agree. I think it's as well, you know, budget. You know, budget comes down to, um, bums on seats at the end of the day and how you attract, you know, more pupils into your school and, you know, all of that has such a massive impact because you're constantly thinking about how. How can the school look. Look the most attractive to anybody wanting to come and visit us. And it's such. It's such a shame. I don't think it was like that when I started teaching. I think it was much more, uh. I don't know, maybe it was all much more straightforward.

Speaker B: We've got an interesting time ahead. Because you've got a falling birth rate.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: What that actually means is parents may have a bit of choice. It's not just your local school is all you're getting. You might be able to choose and then parents might actually vote on which are the best schools. So when you are going to be competing for pupils, because you're not all of you gonna have your classes full now. You've got work to do now. You've got to work out what is going to attract the children and the parents. And I think when we had those boom years, you can kind of. You're going to be full no matter what you do. Now you're competing now. Schools are going to be going, we want those children, we want that money. How are they going to do that? How are they going to show they're going to do. And that's going to be an interesting time. I think that's going to be another change that will impact schools.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Hopefully in a positive way.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I mean, coming back to good send practice is good teaching. So how do we become a school where all children thrive? If that's central to your thinking all the time as a leadership team, you know that, how can you go wrong? You, uh, have to articulate that message carefully and sensitively. But actually, if you're coming back to it all the time, what do we do in this school to make sure that all children thrive? And I know it sounds very simplistic, but I think it is. You know, you're coming back to, what do we do to make sure that this is a place that values everybody and thinks about what every pupil needs in order to succeed?

Speaker B: Um, many years ago, when I was governor, because I spent years going to different schools as Mr. B squared, and I go in after the children have left, but I've learned how to judge a school with no children in. There are things, you see where I can tell you if it's a good school or bad school, even that any children. I know you get so much more when the children are in. But I think that a school which helps all children thrive, that helps every single child, feels more welcoming than a school which is an academic.

Speaker C: Absolutely. That celebrates all the achievements and you

Speaker B: see it, you know what that looks like. And I think those schools are going to be the ones which will stay full and I think other ones are going to slowly empty and then work out what they're going to do.

Speaker C: Yeah, I agree. And I think it comes down to valuing everybody's talents, everybody's skills, offering, you know, broad opportunities so that it isn't just about, um, this narrowed curriculum, but it's about the whole experience of being at school for a pupil and um,

Speaker B: it's about being ready for that next phase. That's a big thing. My daughter's primary school, they didn't get the best results. There was an academic school very, very nearby. They got the best results. But what the secondary school always said is the children from my daughter's school always arrived more prepared for secondary.

Speaker C: Mhm. Yeah.

Speaker B: And that's an important difference because they

Speaker C: were thought about as a whole child. And uh, I'm going to steal a friend of mine's, uh, comment. She always says that she wishes uh, that teachers would, that schools would think about teaching children, not lessons. And I love that phrase.

Speaker B: Definitely.

Speaker C: I will credit Andy Hillman with that when she's listening.

Speaker B: Years ago it was a phrase of. It was, um, schools taught children, colleges and universities taught subjects. That was a thing as you taught the child. Whereas at college, university were delivering a course. And I do think in secondary it's changed more to teaching subjects rather than children. It's getting through the curriculum. Thank you, Mr. Gove. Um, rather than the teaching of the children. And I do hope with so many things we get back to teaching children

Speaker C: and if we start, if that's how we can start judging schools by. On how well they teach children rather than how well, how high the outcomes are because of lessons. I think the uh, the outcomes will improve anyway.

Speaker B: That's the thing. Without a doubt they will. Because if you. Every child. I think I'm not going to quote the research because I'll get it completely wrong. Every child wants to please. Every child wants to please their parents. They form that they want that attention, they're needing it, they're seeking it, they want to impress their Parents, they want to impress their teachers. That's like a natural child to slowly that destroy that something's going wrong and if you make that child happy, they're going to thrive. It's, it's, to me it's the most obvious thing a happy child will achieve. Uh, a child who isn't getting their needs met will not achieve.

Speaker C: Yep, absolutely. So it comes back to doesn't it, looking at each child and how they can thrive?

Speaker B: Definitely. And I'm m going to wrap it there.

Speaker C: Seems like a nice place.

Speaker B: I just want to say that. Oh we're loading. There's a little bit I wanted to add in but that will have to wait because we've already talked enough. Um, so thank you for coming on the show today.

Speaker C: It's been a pleasure.

Speaker B: You are very welcome as always. I will be sharing Lisa's contact details and links to find out all about widget and uh, other work Lisa is doing. And you'll find the show notes wherever you listen to the podcast or on the cencars website. Um, if you haven't subscribed already click on that subscribe button. And don't forget to follow us on the social medias, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. We're on most of them. Um and if you're looking for a simple secure way to capture and share evidence of learning or a way to capture people voice, a way to celebrate and share achievements, or a simple way to communicate with parents, you need to have a look at Eversense. Eversense is our evidence system that does so much more to boost parental engagement. Remember it's about a conversation, it's a two way thing. To find out more about Eversense visit the btool website. Um and you can find out all about the software or if you look in the show notes you'll also find a link to a meeting with me so I can take you through Eversense and answer any questions you have. And you'll find the links to the B Square website or that meeting link in the show notes. So for now it's goodbye from me

Speaker C: and it's goodbye from me.

Speaker B: Bye everyone.

Speaker C: Thanks.