From Teacher to Charity CEO: Krista Cartlidge's Leadership Journey

Speaker A: My guest on this episode of the Evolve to Succeed podcast is Krista Cartlidge, CEO of my time, A, uh, Dorset based charity helping young carers. Krista comes from the education sector and then evolved into becoming a CEO of a fledgling charity helping young carers back in 2018-19. That charity has now developed, it's done national lobbying. I'm really keen to have a conversation with Krista about all things that she's experienced making that transition, the comparisons perhaps between the charity and the business sectors and the growth that she's gone through and how she's changed and developed as a human herself. So I really hope you do enjoy this episode of the Evolve to Succeed podcast. And if you do, please help us by subscribing on your favorite channel. And of course, go to evolvadvisory.co.uk if you want to find out more about Evolve and our services. Enjoy the episode. Krista, welcome to the Evolve to Succeed podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you very much. We're excited to be here.

Speaker A: Really looking forward to our conversation. I'm going to talk a bit to begin with about you and how you got into the kind of charity sector and your background. We're going to talk a lot, I'm sure, about my time and what it does.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then also some kind of conversation around the comparisons between the business world, owning a business, developing and rapidly growing a charity and some of the lessons that we can perhaps share and learn from each other.

Speaker B: Amazing.

Speaker A: So we should get away, get underway really with that kind of question of, you started in the education sector, so what drew you to education?

Speaker B: So my dad was a teacher and he was primary school teacher and he wrote me a 10 page letter when I was kind of leaving university to say don't go into education and obviously did exactly what I was told. But no, I actually spent a summer working out in Zambia for UK sport and it was an amazing program where we were teaching HIV and AIDS awareness through sport. And I loved it and I loved working with the young people, I loved working with the different communities. It was quite an, a sort of profound experience for a 21 year old who hadn't really traveled like that and came back and yeah, just started my teacher training and I, I love that age group that I worked with. So I was predominantly GCSE and A level, so teenagers on my sweet spot. Um, I mean, I have been accused of still being 15 in my own heads, but I think that's fairly accurate. So, yeah, I loved it, loved that career.

Speaker A: Yeah. And through that kind of Education piece. You did start to develop some leadership skills, didn't you?

Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. In, uh, I think you experience leadership in lots of different ways in school. So obviously you're leading within your classroom and the young people that you're teaching, they need to trust you. They need to know that you're on the journey with them. You're encouraging them to take risk, um, to share with you academically, emotionally. So there's leadership there. But I always say, I mean, I was head of humanities, I was an assistant principal as a vice principal for a while for the um, the trust that I work for. So I'd experience lots of leadership, but I wouldn't say that I was particularly good at it at that phase. I think time in schools is always an issue and what leadership really requires is time and consideration and thought. And when you're operating in an environment where there is very little time, it's often hard to give the teams that you're leading the time that they need and require. So it was one of those job where whilst I had a vision and I knew what I wanted to do, I wasn't really delivering on it. And so I'd be interested to speak actually to any of my former colleagues that I did line manage because I think I'm probably a very different line manager now to the one that I was then.

Speaker A: Definitely. And I suppose perhaps in the education sector, it's the career development thing, isn't it, to, to develop, to earn more, to succeed, you have to take on those responsibilities. And it's possibly not a natural choice if what you want to do is teach and change the lives of children.

Speaker B: It's. You're so right. So it's really interesting. The best teachers are, uh, the ones that get promoted the quickest. Ah. But actually that takes you out of the classroom and the thing that you are really, really good at. And it, I think education is a really interesting space in the. As I say, the challenge with leadership is always around time. It is always around and how much energy you've got to give because obviously you've got the responsibility of your students, particularly if you're teaching exam level classes, then you've got to get them through their exams. There's all the additional kind of data pressure there. And so what you have left over, uh, there isn't always a lot of emotional capacity for other people. Um, so I think it is, it's tricky and I found it hard in that area. Definitely.

Speaker A: Okay. And um, so at what point did you think, obviously there was a passion for Teaching teenagers, getting them through the GCSEs, taking on some leadership responsibilities. At what point do you think, well, um, maybe the education sector's not for me and I'll look for something else. Or was it serendipity? How did a move into the charity sector come about, Krista?

Speaker B: I definitely been becoming less happy with what was coming down from central government. And there was a real focus within the education sector on attainment and on young people's grades and on young people achieving their grades. And they changed the mechanism by which schools were measured, which was probably a really positive thing. But it meant that actually we lost some of the opportunity to. To teach, to be educators. And I remember reading an article, two things that happened. I read one article that said that the new system was causing the death of the eccentric teacher. And I really felt that to be true because I was one of those.

Speaker A: I can imagine you were one of those eccentric teachers. Yeah.

Speaker B: And, you know, I ended up in a classroom that had no windows and I couldn't even fit the amount of children that I had into my room. But it became like an exam factory. And, um, we moved to a teaching model that meant essentially every lesson looked the same for every young person, which for some kids is. It worked brilliantly because they liked the consistency, they knew what was coming. But for me, I was training other teachers on how to teach in a methodology I didn't really believe in, didn't have that.

Speaker A: It wasn't in the heart. There was no belief.

Speaker B: Exactly that. And I'd stopped, you know, taking kids out of the classroom to walk them up and down staircases, to work out how meanders worked, because they had so little experience of that in other subjects that it would just cause too much excitement and we'd lose the learning completely. So I'd got to a point where I was, I don't know what I want to do next and I don't know which direction of travel. And I was on the up. I was, you know, being promoted and all of those things. But I actually decided, and it is serendipitous how this all happened. I decided I was going to go down to two days a week at school so I could go and do a master's at Bournemouth University.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Just to work out what else was out there, what other options there were. Ah. And my head at the time had said, well, you're not leaving. Because we had a really tricky group of year 11 boys and I had to get them through their exams. Um, and so this opportunity, with my time Just came about through a conversation with, um, my ex husband, through with the chairman because they wanted to do something with young carers in education. And obviously I was in education and

Speaker A: understood that sector completely.

Speaker B: Completely. And. But what was really compelling for me was that having done 13 years in the classroom, I had never had any training on who young carers were or how to support them. Um, so through the conversations that I had, I had this horrible moment of realization that I had had all these kids come through my classroom and I had not made any allowances or accommodations for the fact that they were young carers and that they're competing priorities between what's expected of them at school and what they needed to do at home. And I just made it worse.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And so I really went down the rabbit hole in the young care. And I. And what I couldn't understand was the lack of understanding within our sector. We work with young people day in, day out. How is this not on the agenda? How is this not something that we're all t about in teacher training that's delivered through our regular CDC, isn't it?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: 100 and it. And it turned out there wasn't much out there.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: And so that's where.

Speaker A: And that's what they grabbed hold of you at that point. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I had. Growing up, my best friend would have been a young carer. We didn't know that's what she did or. Or what we would have used exactly to describe what. What she was doing. But that moment of realizing that my life looked completely different to hers, and these were the reasons why. So when I'd gone off to university, I'd draw a sort of arc around Brighton and said, anywhere north of that line is where I'm happy to go. Because I wanted to leave. I wanted to have that experience for her. She couldn't go to university until it was much later on.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: She had to go to the local university. And just. I think the research I did around young carers gave me the understanding of how different it can be. But also for me, it was that the systems that schools operate within make lives for young carers so much harder when their life is already hard.

Speaker A: Yes. Tough as it is. Yeah. And can you remember. So you then made this transition into this kind of sea of a very. Kind of young charity. And, um, you know, full disclosure to listeners. I was one of the trustees of that charity at times where I remember those early days of my time. Um, can you remember what those early days felt like? You'd come out of A very structured environment. You know, the education sector. Bit frustrated with all the structure, but a structured environment into a charity that was in a transitional period. It was very small at the time. Can you remember what those early days and months of being the CEO was like?

Speaker B: It was a weird sense of freedom. And it was the first time in a long time that I'd felt like I can do anything, which was exciting and also slightly intimidating. But I'm also. I thrive off that. I thrive off not knowing. I love change. Um, which I know makes me weird, but I thought everybody did. It's only as I've got older that I realize actually that's unusual.

Speaker A: You're unique.

Speaker B: Yeah, in that sense. Um, but then what was really interesting is, obviously I'd been in the job for four months, and then Covid happened. Yeah. And we went into the first lockdown. And so all of the kind of fledgling ideas that I'd had around, um, the employability program and supporting young carers through transitions from school into work and further on, it all had to stop because the world had gone into lockdown. And I think initially that was really challenging, but it was also a huge opportunity. And actually, the way that my time is structured now is the better for that experience. So, for example, the employability program, we were trying to work out how we would bring kids from different parts of Dorset to one central place to do the program. We just took it online. And actually the young carers feedback on that was, it's really good doing it online because I can access external support but without leaving my house. And the young carers in their families, as we all did, went on this journey of understanding it and using tech in a. In a way that we'd never done previously. And so some of that has stayed with us. And we ran. Um. I remember one of the first things that we did was we started making YouTube videos, and we had loads of experts that were, like, either really good drummers or experts on poetry or whatever, make these YouTube videos, put them on YouTube for young carers, and then realized that we had no idea if young carers were even watching them. So we set up, which is still called Zoom Youth Group, and we had two young carers come to the first ever Zoom Youth Group and three members of staff. So we were like, okay. I mean, that's a good start. But now we still run Zoom Youth Group. We have over 100 young carers that come still every week because, again, it gets over a transport barrier that young carers often have, and it allows them to Access my time support in a way that suits them and suits their family and also helps them build confidence in who we are, how we can support them. They can make friends that way before they take the risk of coming on a further memories day.

Speaker A: Something.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it is interesting, isn't it, that, you know, we all reflect back. I mean, it's six years on and we probably should stop referring to it, but you know, that Covid, period, organizations that did embrace the need to change and to do things differently typically have succeeded post, haven't they? Because they've taken the best of what they learned through that process and implemented it and kept it and then bought back, you know, in your case, brought back the real world stuff.

Speaker B: Well, it was. I mean, I am no IT expert. Everyone that's ever worked with me will tell you that. And it was a really rapid learning curve. But as I say, I'm glad that we went through that experience as an organization, because had we not have done, I think we would have been trying to fit programs of support in the way that we thought that they should happen. Whereas, as I say at the end of COVID we said to the young carers, do you still want Zoom Youth group? Is that something you've still. And they still come.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so we'd never have probably been that innovative had we not have been forced to be.

Speaker A: And when you look at it, was there things that you would have. You were doing in the kind of education sector in terms of your style of, you know, the leadership you were carrying out and that you. And the way in which you conducted yourself that didn't translate into the charity sector. Can you think about some of those moments of realization where you're like, ah, uh, I have got to learn to be different.

Speaker B: Yes, definitely. So I think I. Again, this will shock you, Warren. I, um, have an issue around hierarchy in that I just don't care for it. In that I'm. I was very, very lucky in that I've had bosses in the past in education who just get me.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And get the mad verse that I bring and therefore put up with some of my sort of like knocking down the door and saying, well, we need to do this or. And. And I was always. I always had my, uh. And my mum would say this. I was always quite disruptive. Like, if I don't believe that something works, I will always challenge it, hopefully in a productive way. But I think as a young person, you get labeled as disruptive and then it feels like a negative.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Whereas actually bringing that disruptive nature into the charity sector has been really valuable.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because I do ask questions about, well, why do we do it like that? Like, why does it need to be that way? If this doesn't work for the young people we serve or it doesn't work in the why are we doing it? And it. I like that I found a place where that disruptiveness is, is valuable. But they're learning how the business world works has been fascinating for me because I remember the first time I went to a networking event and I just stood there and I didn't know what to do. And I was like, I'm sure this really is just speaking to people. I'm sure that's what it is.

Speaker A: There's no magic source.

Speaker B: No. But I think I thought that it. I had to sell something and I had to like, recruit people there and then I had no idea that relationship building takes a really long time and you don't need to get something out of the first conversation that you have with someone. So it was. I've definitely had to learn that not everyone operates at the pace that I like to operate at. Uh, and that's okay.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And often the pace can lead to making mistakes that if I'd moved more slowly. Yeah, we wouldn't have made those mistakes. But I have a great leadership team who are very good at holding that in check.

Speaker A: So it's interesting, you know, that that disruptive nature that you have, uh, you know, brings a force and energy with it, but also that dislike of hierarchy. So how does that now, you know, change your leadership style? Because you are, you know, you report to a board of trustees, so there is still some hierarchy to you, but, you know, you lead a quite large team now and that is hierarchical, isn't it? So how does your leadership style or how has it developed with that desire perhaps to resist being hierarchical?

Speaker B: I think I've been really lucky in that the board that we had and the board that it's evolved to be, um, have been very. We work as a team. It doesn't feel like there's a big difference between us as the exec team and them as the board. And I think I listen to a lot of other friends who are in the charity sector who really struggle with that. Um, and the other thing is, I have welcomed governance in that because I am new to the sector. Uh, I have no greater fear than there is something I'm not doing that I should be doing. I don't even know I should be doing it. So actually it is a two way Street. And then I think, in terms of the way it works inside of my time, is that I have had to learn to step out at times and let other people lead the people they lead. Because I think the biggest thing for me is I hate seeing people in pain, I hate seeing people upset, I hate seeing people unhappy. And so what I had a tendency of doing was overstepping whoever their line manager was or the person was to try and fix the problems, try and make it better. And actually, that's. That's not always appropriate.

Speaker A: You need to coach and mentor their line manager.

Speaker B: Exactly that.

Speaker A: To do what needs to be done.

Speaker B: Exactly that. Um, so it's definitely been a real joke. And I. And I'm not even remotely finished. Like, there is so much learning still today. Um, but also the hierarchy thing, it does serve us sometimes. In that last year, we were invited to go and meet with Ofsted, so Sir Martin Oliver, who's His Majesty's Chief Inspector, and one of the things I know is that if we can get young carers onto the Ofsted framework, schools across the country have to listen, they have to respond. And we've been really lucky. Dorset schools have got on the bus, but there's been no, um, metric by which they've been judged or assessed on that.

Speaker A: They're doing it voluntarily for the benefit of their pupils that are young carers.

Speaker B: Exactly that. Which is the best reason to be doing something. But we have had schools that have been resistant to working with this because

Speaker A: it doesn't tick a box, doesn't hit a metric.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly that. And, you know, having. Having the guts to say to Sir Martin, you know, one of the young carers did a really beautiful presentation. We presented some data which, again, there hasn't been any data on young carers and their performance and education until we started collecting it. But having the guts to turn around and say to him, so you've heard from the young carers, you've heard the data. Are you going to include them in the inspection framework? And the team all sat there and looked at me and went, and his policy team that I've been working with for years were looking at me like, that was Bray. And. And he said, yes. So sometimes that. That lack of fear around people that are, uh, more senior than you, that have bigger jobs than you do, it can be a good thing if the. If the thing you're asking for is going to make positive change. And his response was amazing.

Speaker A: Yeah. And exactly what you want, isn't it? But is that. I just wonder whether, as we all become leaders. We sometimes go through this process of just recruiting people like us because we resonate with them.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, we don't see resistance in them. Has that been a learning curve? Because if you like that disruptive nature, you like change, then you necessarily going to find those people to surround yourself with. But at times, particularly in a charity that needs governance and you know, it's great to hear that governance is key to you. You need people that are a bit more analytical, bit more blue in their thinking, you know. And that possibly as a charity grew, wasn't necessarily a thought that you had or how did you develop the team? So it was balanced.

Speaker B: It's definitely taken some time. So I think I felt very bad because in the early days, obviously it was during COVID Yeah, everything was, was just getting going, but everything changed. And so the first people that I recruited, people I knew and people that could help with social media because everything is now online or, you know, I know that you're a really good writer. Any chance you want to write grants. It was, it was that kind of thing. And the team, probably at that point we were really tight, we were really small. But it also became too emotional and it was, it was too personal. And so once I'd had that recognition, recognition that actually we need different voices, we need people with different skill sets, we actively went out to recruit non teachers because initially the team was predominantly made up.

Speaker A: That was your base.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And I know education in the sense that that teachers work flaming hard. They, um, go above and beyond. And if you put young people at the center of the work that they're doing, they're going to perform. Um, and so now we do have a much better balance. I say we're actually 60, 40 now of non teachers versus teachers. But what is interesting is we do our color profiles. Um, I think it's really important. I am obviously a yellow. Um, and blue is obviously the one

Speaker A: you're episode of yellow.

Speaker B: Um, but actually it's about valuing. It was interesting because my profile said what I value most in other people is their blue. Uh, is their analytical. Is that probably because it's something I find more difficult. And so we've got some really strong blue members of the team now who bring that balance and bring that sort of calm to the situation. But it's actually made me feel safer as a leader because I now know I've got other people who can help deliver the vision and the ideas, who are really good at dotting the eyes and crossing the T's. And making sure we're doing it in a way that's safe and sustainable. Um, and I think it's having a team that's really diverse is really important. But I will say this. We did our color, uh, profile recently. We have a lot more greens than we have anyone else. Of course.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's the nature of it, isn't it? Definitely. At evolve, we exist to help business owners and leaders like you start, grow, and exit with purpose. Whether it's coaching, peer groups, strategic advice, leadership and development, or just needing some financial clarity, we're here to support every step of your business journey. If you're ready to evolve, we'd love to help you take that very next step. And I suppose some of the things you're saying there would translate into the business world, particularly the startup world, because, you know, my time was a startup when you joined effectively, uh, it had some history, it had some legacy, and it was transitioning, but it was a startup. And I suppose a lot of business owners would resonate when they start their business. They go to the pool of people they know. But one of the most difficult things, one of those barriers is sometimes you do need to make the tough decisions and move some of those early people on to get people that fit the journey of where you're going. And it's not easy.

Speaker B: No, that was one of the hardest, hardest things. And there's also, I think, because it was inexperienced, you build up a sort of an expectation that if this person leaves, if they go, this is all going to fall apart. And that creates a massive sense of fear, but it also creates an imbalance. And it's been really interesting because it's happened to me a couple of times, particularly in the early days, where people have left and you're terrified and you think, well, I can't do this without them. Um, you know, how is this going to work? And then the people that have come in to replace them have bought a different skill set and a different ability, and they work in a different way. And you think, oh, okay, it's been. Okay. So that's been a big lesson.

Speaker A: It is. And I. But I think one of those, you know, is that old adage, is there nobody is irreplaceable?

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: But when you're, when you're in those early days, it doesn't feel like that, does it? But to experienced it and seen it and actually to make that leap sometimes and make some of that change happen or the change happen from you because somebody moves voluntarily. Yeah, you do need to learn those Lessons, don't you?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's that expression. Someone said to me once, we're all hands in the sand and if you take your hand out of the sand, the sand will fill in around it.

Speaker A: I love that.

Speaker B: It's a re. It's always stayed with me. Um, and it is true, but it. But it's hard.

Speaker A: Yeah. And at, ah, what point did you really feel that my time was gaining traction?

Speaker B: That's a really good question. I mean, I think there's been. There's been several moments in the last year, but I think it was earlier than that. I think. I'm trying to think when the. When the kind of seminal moments are. I remember the first time that we realized that we were working with something like 90% of the schools in BCP, and I was, uh, like, okay, but this is, this is good. And then actually, I do know the moment. So the. For the first time, young carers were included in the school census. That was in 2023. And we'd push for that through lobbying, through lobbying with other organizations. Uh, people have been saying it for a long time. And the data came out on which areas of the country identify the highest percentage of young carers, and it was bcp. And I thought, all right, we were definitely onto something. And then in the last year, obviously, the win we had at Ofsted was huge, and it has been put in the inspection frame. So schools are now expected to, um, identify and support young carers, which is amazing. Um, we recently had a trip to the palace to meet the king. So there's been a series of events where you think, I think we're probably doing something right. Yeah.

Speaker A: And at what point did you. Because obviously there's a lot of what you do that, because you're a local charity, has been focused on BCP in the south, but you have transitioned, particularly through the lorrying, to be this national voice, this national of charity. How did that come about and how important has that been to you?

Speaker B: It's data driven. So the, As I say, the young carer sector, uh, there is such a hole in the data. Like, when I, When I first took this job, I remember spending about a month just reading everything I could get my hands on. And there was a weird statistic that young carers performed nine grades lower than their peers at school. And as a teacher, I didn't know what it meant.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because I was like, is that across nine subjects, is that one grade below? You know, I couldn't. And then when I, um, unpicked that data, it was based on predicted grades from year nine. It didn't stand up. And I knew that if we wanted to make the case to head teachers and to schools that young carers should be important, for some schools, the data is everything.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I'd had that experience.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so we started repeating, collecting data, we started creating reports. And what we found was not surprising, but it was shocking. And we were seeing that young carers were significantly less likely to leave primary school with the same grades as their peers, and that those kids that didn't get those grades were unlikely to pass English and maths at gcse. And for me, that was a real moment of like, the writing is on the wall for young carers at the end of primary school, unless we do something about this. And it's that data, uh, alongside the practice. So the good examples of great work that schools have done that have meant we've been able to lobby government, Department for Education, Ofsted, et cetera, because we've been able to say to them, here is the data side of the problem, but here are some of the solutions. So we're not just coming banging on the door saying, there's a problem. There's actually some really low cost, really effective ways of addressing this. So shall we, shall we get on with that? And as I say, I think data is absolutely everything. And I'm not just saying in the numbers, but the qualitative data and the stories that the young carers tell us as well are so important because there's a phrase and a saying within the young carer world, which I love and I think has application everywhere. It's nothing about us without us. And we have really embraced that, uh, in the. Because one of the things that we could have measured, for example, is how many schools are we working in. Yeah, that's a really metric, isn't it?

Speaker A: KPI.

Speaker B: Exactly. It makes us look good. But actually, for me, that doesn't go even nearly far enough. The question is, do the young carers in those schools feel the difference of the support that they are being given? Because if they don't feel it, it's just a tick box exercise, why are we doing it? And so we've been really committed to understanding that. And that has meant that the programs that we deliver now are changing in response to that feedback. So we haven't designed something and just said, well, now it's done good. There is an ever evolving landscape and the challenges that young carers face are ever evolving. The way that schools are, um, set up is ever evolving. You know Ofsted makes changes to their framework and suddenly there are jobs all over the country for inclusion leads and schools. Like things happen and we have to stay on top of to make sure that what we're doing serves the young people we exist to serve.

Speaker A: And um, how is that? Because I suppose this is a bit about scale and growth, isn't it, Is that you've gone from being a small startup charity to what you are now and the lobbying and all the great things you've done and achieved for that, for all young carers. Uh, what point do you, did you really switch on to actually scalability in a business frame? You're talking about scalability, diversification, growth. At what point did you really switch on to that? And you know, what lessons perhaps can you take from your experiences that might relate to somebody trying to do it in a business?

Speaker B: So there was a moment, and I will always remember this moment where um, I thought we were going to go under.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: And the reason was because three grants that we thought were coming through hadn't so cash flow, which was something I never really understood. It just meant money in the bank. Right. Um, was a real and significant issue and I had to sit down and color code the team in the sense of who would stay.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Who would go. And it was because of my need to make sure people are okay. It was awful. And I remember just sitting there just being totally overwhelmed and we were incredibly lucky that one of our supporters came through and, and gave us a cash injection that got us through that period. But that was the best lesson that I could ever have experienced because I had to take it more seriously. And at that time as well, I was getting some really, really good advice from Paul Tansey, who's our former chairman, around creating sustainable incomes. And I think the way that I probably initially approached that was about regular donors, you know, people that give you your 5 pound a month, etc, but how can you, you create a regular donor program that makes you self sufficient when you're a small Dorset based charity? And I did some research and it's something I think all local charities would love, but it's harder to achieve, especially if you've got um, Martin Lewis, the money man saying like, cancel all of your subscriptions to things. So it's not. And people who've got cost of living crisis, it's not the right time, so what can we do? And then what also was happening at that point was we were starting to recognize that the schools work we were doing had real value and therefore it could be sold into schools. So there was a national program a couple of years ago where schools were given a small pot of money by central government to train a mental health in schools lead. And I looked into that model really carefully and I was like, this is a really good idea and we promote the concept of a young carer champion in every school. But actually this is something that schools could pay for, which would then bring money from the education sector into the third sector, which will then go on to support young carers. So that we launched it last year and we had quite a few schools sign up and pay for our support, which is really exciting. And you think, okay, cool, not as many as I'd have liked. But we started and then now we've evolved the schools program so it is a formal accredited qualification for a young carer champion. So we can give them some credibility in school as well. But it becomes then something we can market.

Speaker A: Brilliant. So then, yeah, you're not relying on purely on gifts and donations and fundraising. You've got a service income effectively.

Speaker B: And then this year we're in a really fortunate position that the fundraising team are going to go out and try and fundraise the difference in terms of what we need. But anything that we earn through the program is additional funding that we can then start to look at how we invest to make sure that we're more sustainable in the future. So it's, it's been interesting learning that.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and obviously it puts us into a different sphere in the, you know, marketing, um, and that kind of thing. But actually in education it is really done through word of mouth and who you know and the outcomes.

Speaker A: That is most of the world in business.

Speaker B: Exactly, exactly.

Speaker A: That it's not correlate. Doesn't it?

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: And what is the toughest business skills that you've had to learn? I mean, we talked, we've talked about cash flow and that's probably number one. But what other business skills have you had to learn?

Speaker B: The lingo? Okay, I honestly, I call a spade a spade. I really do. And I think particularly the lingo around finance is something that just threw me. I was one of those kids at school that I could do maths. I didn't love it. I got an A, which surprised everybody, including my math teacher, who was convinced I was going to get a D. Um, but I found learning the language to be able to have conversations in a way that was fluent, really, really hard. And it also makes you feel like an imposter constantly if you don't speak it because other people talk so fluently about this and that and the other bingo type thing. Exactly that. Um, and so I found that really difficult.

Speaker A: Difficult.

Speaker B: And I think probably the other thing is, is as the charity's grown, Obviously we have 25 staff now. Yeah, this is their mortgage, this is their career, this is their livelihood. That's a lot of responsibility as well as listening to the experiences that young carers have and being utterly frustrated at times by, you know, the systems that are supposed to support them that don't. And so you feel quite a weight of responsibility at times and you think, oh, uh, we have got to fix this because it's the next generation and it's not okay as it is. And so they're the kind of things that keep me up at night, but

Speaker A: they must be the things that excite you as well, making that change happen. My dad was a young carer. He lost his dad at age three. Her, um, mom had severe diabetes. He used to inject and you never really talked about it, but you could see the impact had on his life, you know. And that was back in the 50s, 60s when the. Nothing really changed. It was one of the things I got passionate about with my time and what you guys were doing. But you are on the brink of helping and lobbying and making a difference to not just this generation, but future generations aren't. Uh, you. So those stories don't get told in 20, 30 years.

Speaker B: And that for me is what this is about in the. For too long M, we have known that there's been a problem, but no one, there hasn't been a coordinated response to that problem. And in my mind that is just not okay. Like uh, the way that the country and government have rallied around looked after children. So children that are in care has been really game changing. I think there's still some areas of improvement needed but as there always will be. But that was driven by understanding the data. Yeah, and, and looking at the data and what we found when we first did our research was that young carers at primary school were performing in the same space as looked after children. And I find that that, that drives me that unfairness of it. So we've got all this resource and I'm not in any way saying it shouldn't be directed at looked after children, but actually the chances are ah, that those looked after children will have been young carers before they ended up in care. So how do we get to a space where we look after this bracket as well? And then one of the young carers said something that will stay with Me forever at, uh, the international conference for young carers. And he said, how do we stop young carers becoming the cared for of the future? Bang.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you think, yeah. How do you break that cycle? Because we see it because of the, the stress, the pressure that they're under. They start developing their own, yeah. Uh, mental, um, health issues. They start experiencing their own physical health issues as well. That's just not okay.

Speaker A: That's not right. That's kind of flawed me.

Speaker B: Well, sorry.

Speaker A: Because it is a. Yeah. It's a fundamental statement, isn't it? It's so true.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: To break that cycle, you know, without support is hard, isn't it?

Speaker B: 100%. And these are young people that are doing so much not only for the people that they love and their family, but they're also, uh, carrying a huge weight of social responsibility as well. And I think the least we can do is support them through that. Ah. And make sure that it doesn't cost them, um, the next phase of their life. And 1 think I'm doing a PhD with Bournemouth University alongside this. And one of the young carers spoke about this and she said, well, I have to do well at school because I care for my brother, which means my caring role will never end because I'm the oldest. So you've got a young person, teenager who is thinking about the fact that they are going to need to provide care for another family member for the rest of their life and making decisions about that and their journey based on that. I drew a three hour line away from Brighton and decided how far I could get away from it. Like it's, it's not fair. And I think some things being unfair.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Is probably. That's a big driver for me.

Speaker A: That is something that grips you.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And we can see that. We can see that in the great work that you and the team. Team have done. You talked about kind of the growth of the charity and you talked about where it is now. Where do you want, want to take it? Because it still feels to me like you are in those early days of what you'd love to see happen and what you'd love to see my time achieved. So where do you want to take my time, Krista?

Speaker B: It's such a good question and I think I need to be really careful in how I answer this. So there is no national charity for young carers. There are carers charities that are national. So I think there is a space for a national charity for young carers. But what I don't mean by that is that there needs to be my time delivering in every part of the country because there are some incredible young carer organizations out there already doing some brilliant work. But actually we all work quite separately and there's lots of reasons for that. The geography is a problem. The fact that most young care organizations are chronically underfunded, um, so it creates a bit of a competitive nature amongst us because we're all after the same, same pots of money. But I think for me, what I'd like to see across the sector is a standardization of the support that young carers receive and that standardisation being at the top end of support, not the bottom end. And so the only way we can do that is if we are able to funnel more funds into this sector by making more noise. So I think we need to work together to do that and I think my time can play a role in that conversation. Um, we've been lucky recently and we've worked with some brilliant other young care organisations up in Newcastle, over, over in Romsey, up in Oxfordshire, and there is a sort of collective thought process now around, like, how do we do this, how do we become louder as a whole so that it becomes harder to ignore and we can really make a sustainable long term change.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because for me, again, that thing is fairness, it comes back to. But it is a postcode lottery.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So depending on where you live depends on what you get and what you get is dependent on how much value local authorities place in it and therefore how much funding is dictated. Sometimes it's that the funders will say to you, well, we funded loads of projects in the Southwest, so we're not going to give you any. Cool, that's fine, great. But that's the world we live in. So I think, as I say, my times growth is not necessarily about. It's not about land grabbing or taking other areas, it's about being useful where we can. And like, there is a young care organization who, um, bless them, they have two members of staff, both of whom are in their 70s. They've approached us about would we consider working in that area because at some point they won't be able to continue. So where we were invited, absolutely. That would be something worth exploring. Um, I'm just really, I am really, I'm really keen to just keep lifting the lid, keep understanding more about the challenges, keep understanding the kind of systemic issues that impact young carers and then to start just unpicking them and seeing the success we've had within the education sector, uh, it makes me think it's possible in health. It makes me think it's possible in local authorities. So it's building that knowledge base of how that works and how we can apply what we've learned in different, different traces.

Speaker A: I think there's. And I know you know him well, but you know, m. I think Martin Edwards is a great example of it. You know, charity CEO, uh, that knows actually his delivery is Dorset Wiltshire for Julia's house and for the children affected and their families. But actually a big part of what he sees as his role is to change the national landscape, to participating in lobbying. And it's a similar thing that you're saying, isn't it?

Speaker B: Well, Martin and I actually bumped into each other in Parliament the other day. We were both up there having different conversations on the same day. And I completely agree. And it's been funny actually in that we have a bit of an identity problem as an organization because we are a Dorset based charity, but people make certain assumptions about Dorset and it being Little Dorset. And so we've talked a lot around how do we, um, how do you maintain a Dorset presence and a Dorset identity whilst also having a national identity? And so that's an interesting piece of reflection that we're doing with, with trustees at the moment. And what might that look like? Um, but yeah, for me it does. It comes to bringing the sector together in a way that means we can create sustainable, long lasting change.

Speaker A: Great, fantastic. And I just want to probably touch on a few other sort of things around that kind of the growth and the correlation between third sector, uh, and business. One of those things is culture. So, um, from the outside, my time seems to have this great culture, this great vibe, I'd say. How have you managed to develop that culture?

Speaker B: It hasn't always been like that in the sense that some days it's not as easy as it looks. But, um, we have our values, which we worked out in the early days, really early actually, um, and we live by them and it's not always easy. So one of our values is collaboration and that means to collaborate. And with that sense of like, sometimes there is competition, sometimes there's other people doing things that you don't know why they're doing it, the way they're doing it. But if we run all of our decision making through that value of collaboration, it can lead us to making less, um, emotional and irrational decisions. Because actually, what are we collaborating for? Well, we're collaborating because we want the best outcomes for young carers. So how do we do that in a way that's effective. Um, I also think as well, um, it probably come. Some of the culture piece comes from the fact that I obviously worked in an environment where the bell rang and that dictated every minute of my day. Like, I used to make a joke about it, but like the bell rang and I peed. Like, that's how this works. And so growing the organization through Covid meant that all the bets were off. Every rule, every structure that I'd ever experienced, and it just wasn't there anymore. So what we tried to do when we came out of COVID was bring the best of what we'd experience and create proper flexibility. So, for example, we don't have a single team meeting that starts before half past ten. And the reason is because we have lots of staff that have children. They drop their children at school. I don't need them breaking their neck to get to the office for 9am for a meeting where they're then going to be distracted or stressed or, you know, all those things. Things. So we've really been deliberate in the way that we've tried to consider, uh, the fact that your home life isn't separate from your professional life. Yes, you have a professional Persona and you have a home Persona, but ultimately, if stuff's going on in one, it's affecting the other and conflict against each other. Exactly that. And I think we've just worked really hard to remember that, like the people in the team are, uh, they are great people doing great things. Sometimes they will make mistakes, and that's okay because we all make mistakes. And I had probably one of my best leadership lessons in this from a former head where I took a group of young people on Duke of Edinburgh and we had three simultaneous emergencies that happened. One which required an ambulance and all the kids were trying to call me. And, um, I'd printed the wrong number on the emergency card that I'd given them. I'd printed the year before's emergency number. So what had then happened, absolute chaos ensued, which is the kids phoning their parents, the parents phone in the school, the headphone in me. It all got. Everybody was fine. Everybody walked out of this experience and it was all a big fun story in the end. I've made some apologies, but he turned around and I thought I was going to go in and get a real earful. And, you know, I. I was ready to sit on the naughty step and be really, really told off. And he said to me, well, you'll never make that mistake again, Chris there. But also, this is kind of on me. And I Was like, how's he worked that out? He said, well, I didn't give you any time to prep for the trip. And he said, uh, and I know you've been flat out. Because we'd had lots of other things on. And so in that moment, he didn't need to tell me I was never going to make that mistake again. But also the fact that he took ownership of the part in which he played. I think I said it the other day to the fundraising team. So they all submitted their business plans for this year. There were no numbers in any of it. It. And so I messaged back and sort of spoke to the team and they were like, oh, we're so sorry. And I said, if everyone does their homework wrong, it means they weren't. It wasn't explained properly.

Speaker A: And I think vulnerability in terms of culture, of being a vulnerable leader.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And saying, I make mistakes. Yes. Yeah. And owning up to your mistakes, it creates all the time. Does impact positively on culture, doesn't it?

Speaker B: All the time. And it, I mean, it just is natural to me to do that in the owner, own it. Because also there's. There's learning in owning it. If you don't and you just look for all the reasons why it's somebody else's fault or, you know, it was this, or I didn't have that or whatever, there is no learning there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so, yeah, if. If the whole team do something in a way that you didn't want them to do it, that is on you, my friend, because that means you haven't explained it in the way that you should have done or you haven't given them the tools and the skills that they need to do it. So I think, yeah, we work hard at culture. We do. Because it's so important.

Speaker A: Do you think it's more important in a charity than it is in a business or any other organization?

Speaker B: No, I think it's important in every organization. Um, because, yes, it's important in a charity in the sense that nobody works in charity to become a gazillionaire. It's just not going to happen. Um, but also, we don't take the mick with it in that. I think what I've heard from a lot of other organizations, and there's a lot of chat on LinkedIn, um, on a, uh, charity CEO kind of group around the fact that there is an expectation that people will just give up their entire lives for the organization, for the cause. I actually don't agree with that either, in that I think balance is really, really Important. And yes, when we need to dig in deep, we will. But that needs to be acknowledged, recognised and then the space be given back to go back to who you are outside of work. Um, but I do, I think it's important in every business.

Speaker A: Okay, final two questions. Krista, go on. First, um, one is what's the legacy that you want to leave behind as Krista?

Speaker B: That's a really hard question. The legacy I want to leave behind as Krista? I'd like to think that I had, I think it's probably in two parts actually. I think from my teaching career it would be that I'd inspired the young people that I worked with to believe in themselves and go and chase the things that they're after. And I've, I love hearing from former students. I've got one that's working out in Fiji at the moment doing like an amazing project, uh, development project with a charity out there. So that's really cool when you know that your stories have inspired them to go off and have a crack and think it's possible. Um, and then in terms of my time, I think, do you know what would be the saddest thing in all of this is if we made the change but the change didn't stick.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So I think it's about making a change that is so fundamental and so understood that it just becomes part of how we operate moving forward. Because I've seen it before. I've seen head teachers that have left schools that were brilliant and within one year it falls apart.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And all that work, all that it's ingrained, it's just. Exactly. It's part of the system. Which is why it is this balance between like doing the work that you're doing on the ground, uh, but trying to create the systemic m change that supports it. Ah, is vital because you can't have one without the other.

Speaker A: Uh, and then my final question would be if you could go back to that moment your dad handed you that 10 page letter. I said, don't get into education, don't get into teaching. What would you go back now and tell that version of Krista, what words of advice would you have for her?

Speaker B: It's really interesting because my dad, um, my dad passed away not long after that and it was always one of those things where I felt like, like I'd completely ignored him and would he be proud of me. And I absolutely know now he would be like over the moon about what I'm doing now. And you know, he was a primary school teacher in a tough area in tough schools. But I think he always thought that I could do more than teaching. And it's really sad, actually, because I think teaching is a really important and really valuable profession.

Speaker A: And profession.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. But I think, actually, what I would say is, like, you're on the right path. Um, so hold the line. Like, keep going. Because I. I was a sports person and I used to run at quite a high standard. And then, like, uh, a bit of typical teenager, a bit of being injured, that never really materialized in the way it could have done.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I think I always thought I'd sold myself short, and I always thought that I should have done more, pursued that. Yeah, exactly. And if I was a better person or whatever, I could have made it. Uh, actually, I love the life I live now, so I think that was an integral decision that started this whole journey.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So stay online, stay on the line, stay on the path.

Speaker A: Perfect. Krista, thank you for being such a wonderful guest. It's my pleasure. On the Evolve to Succeed podcast. And good luck with everything you're achieving at Mai Tai.

Speaker B: Thank you very much.

Speaker A: Thank you. What a heartfelt and lovely conversation it was with Kristen. Just see her passion for the charity, my time, and what she's doing, um, and what that charity is doing for young carers just puts into perspective, I think, for a lot of us, what we do and why we do it and that need for passion in whatever we do. I wish her well with everything that's going on at my time, but it's great to hear some of her stories about how she's evolved and changed as a person, and in particular, you know, what legacy meant, uh, for her. So I hope you've really enjoyed that episode of the Evolve to Succeed podcast. And if you have, then please do subscribe on your favorite channel. But also please do find out more about Evolve and what we do by going to evolveadvisory.co.uk for now, goodbye, but hopefully see you on another episode shortly.