#114: Steven Rosen: Why Most Sales Managers Aren't Actually Coaching (And What They're Doing Instead)

Speaker A: At the end of the year, no one is going to say that Steven was so great at returning his emails within five minutes. If you didn't make your numbers, nobody gives it. Coaching is the number one activity that sales managers can do to drive performance. For some reason, coaching is always the first thing to drop off and be pushed aside. Coaching the deal happens, but to me, that's performance management. That's not coaching on how to get the sale. You know, we're in the middle of hockey playoffs and as a Canadian, this is like the goal and it's nice outside, so it's like golden time. But first of all, the manager doesn't come on and shoot the puck to score the goals in sales, uh, because they were such a good rep. They know what they're doing, but that's not their job. And I'm going to rescue this deal. And what you're saying is the rep's not good enough to do it. So I need to jump in because I'm so busy, but I'm going to jump in anyways because I can pat myself on the back as opposed to, uh, Tony is doing so well because I've coached him. The missing piece that I have found, it's not about motivation, it's really about.

Speaker B: Okay, team, this week we are going over to Toronto in Canada and we are talking to a lovely fella by the name of Steven Rosen. Uh, if you're a sales manager and you're on LinkedIn, this guy's been pretty difficult to ignore. He's just written a brilliant book called Focused and, uh, I've read it from COVID to cover. I've quoted it absolutely everyone. He's also had a forward by Mike Weinberg, who was a best selling author of a book called Sales Management Simplified, which we also recommend you go and buy straight away. And Stephen very graciously agreed to come on the podcast and talk about his book, which I think is absolutely, absolutely superb. Stephen, welcome to the show.

Speaker A: I'm so happy to be here. And, uh, I, I told my friends I'm going to be on a podcast from New Zealand. And, uh, everyone's excited. I don't know why, but everyone excited. It's cool, right?

Speaker B: Yes, yes. So you, you got amazing experience. You come from a pharmaceutical background. The book's obviously been written from your experience of those 25 years. And, um, you, this book is brilliant, Stephen. I'm gonna make you blush. I'm gonna make you, you know, sort of just feel terrible and awkward. But what a book.

Speaker A: Here's what's gonna happen. I won't be able to get my head out the door. You know, the door is big, but don't make my head too big. It's this. It took me 23 years of, uh, being a consultant to get the epiphany to write this book.

Speaker B: Yeah. Now I want to get straight into it. Um, we will obviously put all your wonderful resources in the show notes. Um, the, um, what do you call it? The subtitle of the book is when pressure Rises, Execution holds or drifts. And you talk about, um, leadership discipline that holds under pressure. We're obviously talking about sales leadership here. What, when you come, you've got three pillars and we're going to get into all those things. But you've got focus, you've got leadership, and you've got performance culture. Which one do you think is the first to break when the pressure really comes on? In your experience? Which one, which one starts to wilt or drift?

Speaker A: Uh, I mean, in many cases leadership. And the item that breaks the most is the one that managers hate to do, which is coaching. Coaching fades when, uh, as I talk about when the boss calls the sales manager and even though they may have a coaching session planned or another rep calls for some reason, coaching is always the first thing to drop off and be pushed aside. Now, you know what the, the uh, irony is here? The irony is, the irony is that, uh, coaching is the number one activity that sales managers can do to drive performance. I've been talking about for 20 years and training managers on how to coach, Coaching managers on how to coach. But I, uh, will talk about the challenges there. But the reality is it's like sales reps. If the first thing that breaks is you don't go out and sell, you got a problem. And managers when, if they don't block their time, if they don't hold on to their coaching time because they don't see it as being valuable or the organization doesn't see it as being valuable. Because know, I was a sales manager once upon a time and you get pulled in 200 different directions. Uh, and I've coached managers where, you know, uh, Stephen, I don't have time to coach. I've just trained you on coaching. What do you mean you don't have time to coach? Well, I've got this, I've got that. Uh, I talk about busy work in the book and busy work is not leadership. Coaching is leadership. And uh, so I've told many customers, and this goes way back, our clients that, that at the end of the year no one is going to say that Stephen was so great at returning his emails within five minutes. If you didn't make your numbers, nobody gives an sh. Yeah, right. I mean, you could be good at that. And we all get bogged down with emails and slack and, uh, you know, voice messages, text messages. What drives sales as a sales leader is coaching.

Speaker B: Yeah, well said.

Speaker A: You're very clear on that.

Speaker B: And your book, your book is so. It's so straightforward and pragmatic. It's very clear. And you know, you write about the reality of sales manager being buried. You know, they've got so much on their plate, they're pulled in all these different directions and there's no time left for leading. Um, and I think most authors or people that talk to people about sales management and best practice and sales leadership would say it's a time management issue. But you went somewhere different with that in the book. So what's your view on that?

Speaker A: It's not a time management issue, it's a priority issue. The fact is we all have the same amount of time. And I remember there was, you know, as I said, my epiphany came after 23 years and I was working with a group, uh, out of Montreal, group of sales managers. And we did two days of training and then we had six months of coaching planned. And, and after the training, the senior director of sales got up and said. Cause he sat through the whole process and he said, whatever we've learned over the last two days, we are going to implement. And you know, so we talked to the managers after and they said, oh, we love this stuff, but we just don't have time. We have too much. I call it, you know, minutia. But there's a French word that describes it. It's called caca. Too much caca to deal with or shit.

Speaker B: Does that translate as crap in Quebec?

Speaker A: Yes, it does. Yes, it could translate to a few things, but I always, I love that wor. And it always gets a rise out of people. And what we did is we said, okay, let's look at the stuff that's not generating revenue that you're busy doing and they feel that you have to do. And let's get rid of that stuff. Because at the end of the day, as I said, if the numbers are not made, they point to the sales reps or the managers. So time is an excuse. Time gets beaten up. Time is everyone. It's time. It's time. It's not time. It's what are your priorities? What are your three things? And I talk about that in chapter five, the three things that are critical. And I've actually used that. You know, I was very lucky in my, in my, uh, career that, um, with one company, I was promoted seven times over seven years, from a sales rep to running three divisions. Okay. And I'm not saying this to brag. It's a long time ago, but the point was, I use that technique because every time I got promoted. Nobody trains you. They figure out. Rosen can figure it out. And what I figured out and what I've shared with clients since I've been, you know, coaching is figure out the three things you need to do to be successful or your team needs to be successful and do those extremely well. And I talk about the three things, and those should be things that don't break under pressure. I can tell you what they should like, but I think they should be. But we let companies determine that so they have ownership to those three things.

Speaker B: What would be your. When you say these things? There's so many questions when I was around that I, uh, know in the book that you've given three examples, and you, you, you very politely say it's up for the company to decide, the manager and the leader to decide what those three things are. And I think also there's a difference between a manager and a leader. And we'll get into that, and then we'll get into the challenges of coaching. But in the book on page 49, because I've underlined it several times. Well, no, no. Hopefully we've got the right one here. You said, like, um, your three things, uh, as a suggestion, we inspect pipeline quality every Monday. Coaching conversations are not cancelled, and deals without a next defined step are not forecast. Now, that's just your example, but in your world, like in your 25 years as pharmaceutical and this rapid promotion, what were your three things? Were they similar? Were they different?

Speaker A: It's interesting. When I. When I was VP of sales for one of the companies, I can actually, I can remember two of them. Third one will come. I remember the third one now. Uh, so what was for my team was number one was, um. What's the right number? It was, uh, it was 120 days in the field coaching every year, 10 days a month. And I tracked that, and I sent it up to senior leadership every month. How, uh, the managers were doing.

Speaker B: Absolutely brilliant. So that was one.

Speaker A: Number two in pharma that you get money to invest in continuing health education, to convert doctors. The first year I was with this company, it came the end of the Year. And my, some of my reps and managers did not invest all their money. And I said that will never happen again. So we created a formula called 30 40, 30 which was. They had to build plans and execute to invest 30% of their money. First quarter, 40% second quarter, 30%, third quarter. And if we're ahead of the game we would go back and ask for more money.

Speaker B: Awesome.

Speaker A: And um, uh, to be honest, uh, we went from uh, 70 million to $221 million in sales over three years with no new products. All organic growth.

Speaker B: Amazing. Which is unusual for pharmaceutical, right?

Speaker A: Yes, yes it is because it's a slow moving uh, business.

Speaker B: And we did the pipeline and R and D, you know, just some of these products take forever to come off patent, you know. Yeah, exactly. And so what was your third one? So we talked about.

Speaker A: I'm trying to remember what the third one is. I think, I think it was. We had various designations for doctors as uh, uh, you may or may not know. Uh, there's a company that tracks what doctors prescribe and pharmaceutical companies pay millions of dollars for that data.

Speaker B: I can imagine.

Speaker A: And we were small so we competed with Pfizer in, in a, in cardiovascular. So they had, I think they had six reps to one of ours going to the same offices. So we had to be much better, more targeted and focused. And uh, so we created uh, abc. It was different lingo but the reps, I ah, had the reps create it and uh, we focused on the A's and the B's and there was a certain percentage of time that had to be focused on the large accounts.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So it was very much targeting. If you, if you boil it down, it was targeting where the business is. Yeah. And we had some sophisticated approaches. I was, I was big into that in my younger days of uh, uh, of using data. I don't know if I was ahead of my time but uh, IMs, I think they're international. Uh, company would uh, always say you guys do a really good job with that. So those are our three things. Uh, we, we publish them every month, we track them. Uh, and, and to me that was the key focus. And that worked. That worked. So if I boil it down because I did a lot of, a lot of the benefit for what I wrote applies to more SaaS based companies.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And uh, number one is coaching. SaaS based companies do not coach. And people will probably shoot me for saying that

Speaker B: because the product sells itself,

Speaker A: doesn't not because the managers. I mean if I, I told you I might Be a little controversial. The managers don't know how to coach.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's not their fault. No, it's not their fault because they were promoted. I mean, SaaS based business has grown so quickly. Uh, there's no time for training and development, especially at the leadership level.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: So coaching doesn't happen. Coaching, the deal happens. But to me that's performance management. It's not coaching on how to get the sale. And there's a distinction there in my mind. Um, number two is performance management, which, uh, my friend Mike Weinberg has a lock on that one. Uh, we call it different things, but basically it's monthly accountability meetings is what he calls it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Okay. So you sit down once a month and you review, uh, the results, the activities. And I'm very much focused on focusing forward. I talked about that in the book. That you can't change what happened in the past. So it's really about what is your plan? And sometimes, my poor kids, uh, what's your plan? And I always ask that question with clients as well. What's your plan? Because you can't affect what happened yesterday. You can only affect what's going forward. And to me, those are what's really critical. And uh, uh, I think that applies across industry. Uh, you know, those three, those three areas.

Speaker B: Yeah. So you've talked about. Coaching is number one, performance is number two, performance management, which your, your good friend Mike Weinberg has a good lock on. What's the third one?

Speaker A: Okay, you got me there. You're listening.

Speaker B: You're great.

Speaker A: It's about execution.

Speaker B: Good.

Speaker A: Okay. It's about executing, doing what you said you're gonna do.

Speaker B: Yeah. Pretty simple stuff.

Speaker A: And again and again, if you try, I mean it's very top level, but you can't. Companies. The biggest problem that companies face, I believe, is they try to do too much and they become the old adage, a jack of all trades and a master of none.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I really believe in mastery. Uh, so when you're coaching someone, don't coach them on four skills or eight skills or a different skill every time. I call that flavor of the day coaching. Coach them on one or two skills over the course of six months so they can master that skill. Same as when you're picking what you're going to execute on. If you try to do too much, you don't do anything. Well, I really believe that. And fewer, less is more.

Speaker B: I couldn't agree more with you. A violent agreement with you. I mean, you know, when you look at high performance sports teams they don't. A basketball player doesn't try to be the best violinist or the best tennis player or the best golf player. They're trying to be the best defense, the best rebound, uh, the best attack, whatever it happens to be. And you know, in the high performance world, because we're very lucky, we get some really good sports psychologists on, uh, all over the world and you know, that would not be a conversation in a high performance sports, uh, environment. You know, the fact that the managers don't have time to coach, like what, do you not want to win games? So it's the same parallel, isn't it? And you know, 100. It's so common sense. But you know that phrase, you know, common sense isn't that common.

Speaker A: But you know, people told me that Stephen, you know, the stuff you're teaching is not rocket science. And I say you're right, I'm not a rocket scientist. But if you do the basics very well, um, you know, as I said, there's been epiphanies here and I'll talk about the epiphany because I think it's important but, but you got it. Less is more. Don't try to do too much because you're not going to do, be successful, uh, at all.

Speaker B: I agree, I agree. Mastering one thing is much better than trying to fail at lots of things and doing a lot of things. Average. Let's talk about the epiphany, Stephen. I don't want to miss that. Tell me.

Speaker A: So you know the reason why I wrote the book and uh, I come from a, a sales leadership, uh, background. Although I was a VP of marketing and sales at one point. But my true love is sales and uh, sales leadership. And so for the last, I don't know, 23 years, uh, I came out of industry and I said I don't want to work for somebody else, I'm going to work for myself. I never want to go back. And so I started training and then I started training managers and I built my own coaching model 20 odd years ago. Interestingly enough, it was called focused sales coaching. I still teach it, I teach at the university and it's in my book. I forget what chapter. I think it's nine that I talk about focused coaching because that was always about focus. And so what I used to do is I would train and then I realized that, you, uh, know, six months later the company had forgotten everything I taught them.

Speaker B: Sounds familiar.

Speaker A: I went to one of my buddies who we implemented a program. I said, how's it going with X Y and Z. And he says, what are you talking about? He forgot that he even implemented it. This is the head of sales. Uh, so then I said, okay, you know what? The only way I'm going to make my business tick because for me it's important that clients are successful. If they're successful means they implemented and they've got an ROI and what you've worked with them on. So I said, I do not do training without a coaching engagement. So I started coaching sales teams, uh, sales leadership teams on focused coaching on performance management, on leadership. And we do it for three or six months post training.

Speaker B: Brilliant.

Speaker A: And that worked extremely well. But eventually it would die.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And as I mentioned earlier, when I did one group and the head of sales got up and said, we're going to implement what Stephen did, what he's trained us on and we built the program that senior leadership was going to enforce it. That was the epiphany. And I talk about enforcement a lot in the book. And not to say there's another book called Enforced. There might be. Uh, you know, I tease my wife. There's a trilogy coming. It's taken me a while to get here. I'm in my 60s. But I think I have room for two more books. Uh, anyway, so. But the bottom line is the missing piece that I have found. And I talk about this in the book and you know, uh, you know, I mentioned that it's not a, it's not a motivational book. If you want to be motivated, don't read my book. Because as Mike Weinberg said, he felt like he got punched in the stomach or the head or whatever.

Speaker B: He got punched in the first couple of pages. He said, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So I'm here to say, look, you guys are not bad. The system is bad.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And the reality is, um, going here. But it's not about motivation, it's really about having enforcement in place. So as much as I know you work with rural managers, rural salespeople, so maybe they're smaller based companies that there's people out there all over and the individual manager can definitely benefit from the book.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: Audience is your CRO and your second line leadership who I blame for the problems that are happening. Because they're the ones who control the system.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I give examples, uh, where, hey, you know what, you know the, the I don't know what they call them, regional VPs or the VP calls the manager and says, what's happening with this deal? I need to know by today.

Speaker B: Panic. Yeah, panic.

Speaker A: That's the pressure.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And he doesn't need to know by today. That's the reality.

Speaker B: Yeah. So they cancel the con. They said they cancel the coaching commitment. And what you're saying there, Stephen, is you talk about enforcement, and we're going to get to that because that's a word that's got some jagged edges. And we're getting to the connotation. Yes, it does. There's so much we want to, um, unpack here. But the thing is, you talk about the difference between motivation and enforcement, which we've just spoken about. But for me, enforcement is actually about commitment because motivation wanes. It's like willpower. It's a muscle, it deteriorates. But a commitment is enforcing the commitment or a standard or an agreement. And we will get into that. But, like, I don't want to take you off your track because there's so much I want to say here. But like, when you were talking about focus, sales, coaching that you've been training as a model and lecturing on for the last 25 years on chapter eight, page 88, you see, because I. Chapter eight.

Speaker A: Okay. I thought it was nice.

Speaker B: It was all good. It's fine. I'm here to help. Um, you have a brilliant page. On page 88. It says why most coaching fails and most coaching fails for predictable reasons. Managers coach without focus, without accountability. They rotate skills too quickly, which is why you talked about mastery there. And then the ones I really highlighted here, sir, were they turn coaching into deal inspection, which is glorified pipeline review. Or they step in as super rep. Now, tell me about that.

Speaker A: Common mistakes. Sorry, I didn't hear you.

Speaker B: I'm saying that. Or. And you're saying none of this comes from ill intent. They don't mean.

Speaker A: No. Well, here's. Here's the challenge. I mean, managers are smart people. They've been promoted for a reason. Right. Uh, but deal inspection, uh, to me, is a whole separate thing. You need to do deal inspection. But when it gets confused with coaching, coaching doesn't happen. And to me, my definition of coaching is skill improvement, competency improvement. Uh, so not. You do both, but don't mix the two up. Because what suffers because you want to teach the skills to make the sale.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: Right. Or you want to coach the skills. You don't want to. You want to coach them and help them get better, because then their deals will be better and they'll be able to close them. Maybe they, you know, they do better, Ask better questions up front. Better discovery. Uh, that's a skill. Yeah, that's not a deal thing, right?

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: So coaching is skill based. And I think there's a lot of companies that when I ask them, you know, are your managers coaching? And the answer is yes, they're coaching the deal. Not to say I go a little bit nutso, uh, with that. Cause I'm not. But, but it's like, oh, it's like a trigger point for me. Okay, that's good, but that's not coaching. And here's the problem with SAS based companies. I was talking about this before and I got sidetracked. Uh, but because they've grown so quickly, right? Top reps have been promoted to managers, top managers wrote to VPs. No one has been grounded in coaching. It's all about the deal. And then you hit a certain point, I don't know if it's a billion dollars in the US or 500 million that you can't scale anymore. You're hitting that scaling wall because you're not doing the right things and your people are not trained to do the right things. So focused, as I said, is great for the rural manager who wants to improve what they do daily, there's some really good tips for them, but there's also for the, uh, for the, you know, the middle level. And I think I have a diagram in there that shows the middle level being what breaks everything. Uh, because they don't know what they're doing, they don't know what their job is. And their job is to hold managers to what is critical to their three things. And the deal is not one of my three things. The deal is an outcome of, uh. Leadership. Exactly.

Speaker B: I was just about to take the word right out of your mouth there, Mr. Rosin, like it's the outcome because the coaching's the input. Now, I'm speaking to a good peer and colleague of yours, Mark Cox, on the last.

Speaker A: Uh, they're Antonian.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we love Canadians because they're so damn like Kiwis, right? So pretty.

Speaker A: We love the Kiwis down to earth.

Speaker B: Except you're just a lot bloody bigger than us and thoroughly nice people. And we talked about leading and lagging indicators. But the thing is, what you said there, and I really want to emphasize this for the listeners because this is really important for managers listening to this. What happens is they default to coaching the deal. This is what Steven's just told you. You're coaching the deal. You're not coaching for skill. And what Stephen's defined the difference between coaching and, um, performance management, they are not the same thing. And Stephen said here, and, uh, I just want to make sure people picked it up. You ask executive or VP or C suite, are your managers coaching? They say, yeah, we're coaching, but they're not. They're coaching the deal, aren't they, Steve?

Speaker A: That, that is, that is what I've learned. That's one of the epiphanies when. Because pharma, to be honest with you, I come from pharma, and pharma is a much more mature industry. Right.

Speaker B: And we're sorry, and I have to interrupt just for the listeners. When you say pharma, you mean pharmaceuticals, for sure. Yes, we say pharma as in pharma fa. So, um, and that's not the FA as in the bad word.

Speaker A: But so the drug business, the drug business is more mature than the technology business. And, uh, you know, I was grounded as a manager. Uh, I was out in the field coaching, probably close to half my time. Uh, there were no deals in that, at least in my business. It was about, uh, visiting customers, helping the reps get better. Uh, you know, technology, as I said, has grown so quickly that the foundation has not been put in place to scale. And to me, the foundation is leadership. My watch is talking to me. It happens every now and then. Uh, the foundation is leadership, and leadership is not busyness.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: It's not responding to emails. It's your three things and holding that when the pressure comes and we know we're coming, like, you know, we're not far from the end. From June and June, the end of June, the pressure hits.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Same for, same for in Australia is our, uh, end financial year's, um, the 30th of June. Now, tell me, Stephen, there's so much we want to get through here. You spent 120 days in the field. That was one of your three things. And you used to report that to management. Now, when you're in the field, what are the tips and techniques or learnings or even mistakes that you made when you observing reps in the field and you were coaching them in the field? Can we, can we go there 100%?

Speaker A: I mean, uh, I could write a book just on that. But, uh, the number one biggest mistake is telling and not asking. To me, that's the first paradigm shift. I know it sounds simple, but it's so hard to do, right? And when I coach people, I say, oh, I'm telling you right now, I should be asking you.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker A: Because we all default to telling. Right? And, uh, you know, I ask managers, you know, what's the right ratio of asking versus telling. And I, uh, use a very simple formulas. It's how many ears do you have and how many m mouths do you have?

Speaker B: Love it.

Speaker A: The two to one ratio.

Speaker B: Yeah, I love it. I absolutely love that it's such a simple rule. What is the consequence and impact when you go into telling mode versus asking mode? I know the answer, but I want to hear it from you, sir.

Speaker A: Well, here's the thing. Nobody wants to be told what to do.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: It's like, uh, you know, my wife says, stephen, take out the garbage. You know, don't tell me what you are.

Speaker B: It's called reactions. It's called reactance theory. That's the posture we have. Okay.

Speaker A: So, so that's the third for me. It's resistance. It goes in one ear and out the other. Right. Because unless you build the plan. And I have a coaching model that starts with asking versus telling. That's the core of coaching. Uh, and then part of what I believe, and I, uh, can't remember if I. It's, it's, I'm sure it's in the book, uh, is the first step is you want reps to self evaluate. And if you tell them, oh, you did this great, and you could be better on this. That's, you know, so here's, here's the ratio on that one. Okay. A good manager if they're out 10 days out of 20. A great manager for 10 days out of 20. And let's say they have eight reps, 10 reps. That means they're out with the reps one day per month per rep. Yeah. So the question then becomes, is, what do they do the other 19 days that you're not there? You want them to be self coaches and ask the same questions that Steven or your coach would ask. And so I, I talk about sometimes, uh, you know, I talk about having, being, uh, having Alzheimer's or repeating yourself. But that's what coaching is. Ask the same questions. Get. How did it go? What did you do? Well, what can you improve? But if you ask the same questions, you then condition your sales rep for them to hopefully when they're. You're not with them, that they're asking themselves the same question. So they're self coaching.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I would. I always say, Stephen, repetition is the mother of all learning.

Speaker A: It is 100. And again, it's only on a few things. So the next mistake you asked me was, was it mistakes that you asked me about coaching?

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: Here's one of the big ones I Think you need to work on your closing skills.

Speaker B: Oh, wow, okay.

Speaker A: Ask the rep what they're committed to working on. It's about them making a commitment to improve. It's like, for example, you mentioned basketball. You know, Canada invented basketball. Just, just saying, you know, let's say that they want to work better at their three shot, uh, three point shots or whatever they call it. Um, and you say, no, you got to work on your dribbling. Uh, they're not committed to working on dribbling. So as long as it's within the realm of this will positively impact their performance. Let the rep determine what the coaching engagement is going to be on. I don't tell my clients that, hey, you know what you got to work on X, Y and Z. I ask them, M, what are the two or three things that you want to work on when you work with me? So that's a mistake that we make. We input our own thoughts on what needs to be worked on as opposed to letting the individual decide. There's some tricks to help the individual because some people see that everything they do is great. Uh, some people think everything they do is rotten. Some people. So it's really about helping them channel as to what they're committed to working on. And then there's two more, Two more mistakes. Uh, what I really believe in, I talked about, I touched upon it earlier, that anything you do without a plan doesn't happen.

Speaker B: I agree.

Speaker A: So my third sort of step is having the rep, not the manager, having the republic develop the coaching plan. So, for example, just so, uh, there's clarity here. Let's say the rep's going to work on discovery. I assume that's a common step in most selling models. Okay, you're going to work on discovery. What are you going to do? Well, number one, I'm going to develop 10 questions that I'm going to test and work with. Two, I'm going to use them on every call and see what works best. Three, I'm going to do X, Y and Z. And it doesn't have to be complicated, but unless the rep, the rep, writes the plan, not the manager, Y, uh, it's less likely to be successful.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.

Speaker A: What do you think the fourth step is?

Speaker B: The first step on the plan.

Speaker A: The last step.

Speaker B: Oh, well, they've, uh, they've got their plan. They. You've asked them to make a commit. You've asked them to write their coaching plan. I, uh, would imagine. Then you probably want to close the loop. I'm going to make an educated Guess here.

Speaker A: Oh my God, that's exactly the word that I use.

Speaker B: Well, there you go, closing the loop.

Speaker A: Closing the accountability loop.

Speaker B: And it goes round and round around like any loop does.

Speaker A: Yes, it does. So I don't know. You know, there's lots of coaching models out there. I'm not here to say that mine's the best, but I think it works if it's followed. So if you're not doing those four steps plus asking effective questions, you're probably not as effective as you could be as a coach.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. I just want to summarize this because there's some real gold here. What Stephen's saying, guys, is that, uh, there's an asking to asking to telling ratio. And Stephen's thumbnail or yardstick is basically, uh, your ears to your mouth. So two to one. And what, what Stephen's doing here in his book and what he's teaching you here is quite contradictory or quite counterintuitive or probably sometimes people might say controversial because some managers might go, uh, Stephen, some managers might go, yeah, but, but I have do the coaching plan for my, for my coachee, for my rep because, you know, I'm the manager and I know what's right for them. But the thing is, then they don't get buy in. And then I think the most important thing you just said in this last section is you, if you've got a team of 10 and you're 10 days out of 20, we're out in the field, the maths works that you can only spend one day a month with each of your reps. That was the math. And so what happens is then if you don't, if you can't instill the ability to self coach, what are they doing for those other 19 working days of the, of the month? And I think that's a very important point because when you tell them, they learn nothing. There's no surfacing of comprehension or locking of understanding. And then you create a dependency and a bottleneck where you then have to be the white knight that says every deal. What's your thoughts on that?

Speaker A: Don't do it, don't do it.

Speaker B: Why did managers do it? Said, come on, tell me, why do managers do that? We know why they do it. Tell me.

Speaker A: They want to be superstars.

Speaker B: It's ego. Let me do this artist. And of course what they do is they come in and ride on the white horse and do a deal that the rep doesn't have mandate to do on money or commercial terms or everything else. And it Completely deflates the rip. It kills their confidence. It's. It's damaging. You're.

Speaker A: You're 100% right on. And, uh, you know, it's not their job either to do that. Right. So sometimes I'll do very little. A very simple, uh, technique, please. Uh, I have a pen and a piece of paper.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I'm teaching this. And I say, okay, so we're going to do the plan now. And I give the paper and the pen to individual. I. I don't do the plan. I don't write stuff out.

Speaker B: I was, I was expecting this big model. I expect you start writing everything simple. Everything is.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm a Canadian. I. I keep things simple.

Speaker B: Well, the basics, the fundamentals. Because the thing is, we're obsessed. Now I'll. I'll share with you a little, um, a gem that I was taught by my coach. It called complexity bias. Now, complexity bars is where your mental ego gravitates to complexity and doesn't celebrate simplicity. And you used another word, which is called clarity. So basically, you cannot be clear when you've got lots of things going on, which is to your point of mastery. But that aside is people are suspicious of things that are simple. Very intelligent people have an affliction to this thing called complexity bias. Now this is. And it's very apparent in really smart people like managers, because they go, it can't be that simple. It can't be that simple, Stephen. It has to be. And they have to add complexity and layers. And this is why things fail and things break. But, sir, uh, what I want to. Is managers. Ego. We touched on it. Come on, let's rip the band aid off. Let's really start to get into it. You said you're up for this. Why is it that managers. I had one boss who used to. He used this word, and it drove me mad. Even though as his top producer and made millions of dollars was, I need to assert myself. I need to assert myself. And I was like, I wonder why you want to assert yourself. It's basically because I was winning all the deals and he was no longer the hero and, you know, and. And he just struggled with it. But for you, what's. How do you help managers manage their ego? Because it's something you come across. You've been doing this for 25 years.

Speaker A: Well, I think you summarized it beautifully. So, not that. Not that I'm taking, uh, not going to take a shot at your question, but you guys watch baseball or hockey. Hockey's not popular down there. So you Know, we're in the middle of hockey playoffs, and as a Canadian, this is like the goal, and it's nice outside, so it's like golden time. But first of all, the manager doesn't come on and shoot the puck to score the goals.

Speaker B: Correct. Right. But.

Speaker A: But in. In sales, uh, because they were such a good rep, there's. They know what they're doing, but that's not their job. And I think I may have mentioned a few times in the book, it's not your job to do that. And the fact is, when you're doing the rep job, you're not doing your job.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So you can be. You can be the super rep Superman. Uh, but the fact is that's not your job any longer. You've moved into a different level where you're trying to help everybody win and not by doing it for them, because you don't do them any justice doing it for them. And that's one of the things. I call it rescuing.

Speaker B: Yeah. Right.

Speaker A: I talked a lot about rescuing. And I'm going to rescue this deal. And what you're saying is the rep's not good enough to do it, so I need to jump in because I'm so busy, but I'm going to jump in anyways because I can pat myself on the back. That's the ego thing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: As opposed to, uh, Tony is doing so well because I've coached him, because we've developed him to be better. Look at him. And so, you know, if the manager is not doing their job, let's just say. And sometimes it's the system. System is, you know, usually the issue. But if they're constantly going into rescue deals, and I talk about this in the book. Right. That then they're not having. They don't have time to do what they're supposed to do. And their job is not rescuing deals, it's teaching the reps. And sometimes you have to say, you handle this. This is not. You know, you may coach. What do you think you should do? Come to me with good ideas and how you're going to solve this account, But I'm not stepping in to do it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And nobody wants. Managers don't want to say no. They think it's their job to rescue deals.

Speaker B: M. I agree. Agree 100%. Um, I'm nodding furiously. Whether you. Stephen, I think there's just a slight delay on the line here, which is why I sound like I'm interrupting you all the time. I want to talk to you about the system. The failure of the System. Uh, I want to try something on you, something I've spotted, particularly in rural, in the agricultural or the agribusiness or agritech sector that we work in.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Often the owner, the founder, uh, says, yeah, but we still need. So they, they promote their best rep into a management position. We all know that there's, that's a two pronged sword, you know, it's a two inch sword. And then we'll get into that. And then, and then they say, but we still want you to actively sell and you need some key accounts because. And yeah, good. I got the reaction I wanted. Off you go.

Speaker A: Don't get me started here.

Speaker B: Come on, let's go.

Speaker A: I'll tell you, I'll tell you a funny story.

Speaker B: Please.

Speaker A: Yeah, uh, I, I think it's funny because it's uh. So when I became, um, I used to manage our biggest account in Canada. It was a big drugstore chain. And uh, you know, when I became head of the region, I kept it. When I became head of VP of sales and marketing, I kept it because I, you know, uh, I felt nobody could do as good a job as me. And then at one point the buyer wasn't giving me the ads that I wanted or the space that I wanted. And she says, well, you know what, Steven, can you bring your boss in? And my response was, I am the boss. Can you bring your boss in? That wasn't a very good relationship response. And shortly after that, I gave up the account because I realized I was the detrimental one to the account and I gave it to somebody else.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So that probably doesn't answer the question that you. First of all I talk about, the book is called Focused. How can you do both effectively? What happens is in that situation that you described, uh, the manager defaults to being a seller. I don't care. Someone else asked me that same question. And not that I get mad or upset or passionate, but it just doesn't work. I think I was on, on LinkedIn, we had a discussion about that and people said, well, can't the manager do both? And hey, if, if you want to be suboptimal, yes, they can do both. But that's not the best way to drive things. I think you talked about, you know, this one's a specialist in this, that one's a specialist in that, uh, the manager's job is not to sell.

Speaker B: Yeah, I totally agree. I'm so glad I asked you that question because I knew I was going to get the response that I wanted because I also give them that same advice I say to the owners, the CEOs, uh, the MD is like, what do you want them to be really good at? And do you want them to create dependency and bottleneck and a lag factor, or do you want them to actually empower their team? Stewardship, legacy, enablement, all those good things. And the team sell without the manager. Because the analogy we use all the time, like you with hockey, is like the. The rugby rep does not. The All Blacks coach is not a player coach. They do not run onto the game, score the try.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: All the training before. So the players can then make decisions on the pitch. Now, Stephen, next.

Speaker A: So I apologize. Uh, why did I not ask you about rugby? Because New Zealand.

Speaker B: It doesn't matter.

Speaker A: I feel like my research was not done.

Speaker B: Uh, South Africa are kicking her ass at the moment, but that's a story for another day now, because they also have a very good coach, funny enough. Um, so now on the leadership pillar, Steven, because I've got a few more questions for you. You say something quite controversial, which I think the listeners understand. No. Yes. Yes, it is. And you said in the book, only 10 or 20%. 10 to 20% of sales managers are crushing it. The standard explanation is they were promoted as top reps without the leadership training, which we spoke about, and nothing has been done about it. So what. What are we failing to do with the other 80% that step up from top rep to manager? What's failing? Why is the system broken? I think maybe we could. We could go there. Could we go there?

Speaker A: Yeah, of course. Of course. It's a very good question. So. So, so where are we failing? One is job definition. What is the job? So. So, uh, as the next level, they're rewarding the right things. If your manager being the VP of Sales, let's say, or the regional VP is not asking you how is it going with coaching with Steven M. But they're asking you and said, how's it going with the Acme deal? They're not doing a good job helping you understand what's important. And trust me, as much as we talk as consultants, uh, or as experts, that coaching is key. Most VPs don't. It's coaching the deal.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. So. So one, we're not helping them because we're rewarding the wrong things. We're not rewarding what's critical. Uh, and then the message is, well, you got to be on top of your deals. So you sit at home and you analyze the deals. You look through Medpic or whatever. They're called Medpic. Uh, Winnipeg. Uh, I don't know what they're. Right. You look through that and then you look on your, on your computer. Uh, and then you. As opposed to the most important thing you need to be doing. And I said it, but I didn't say it as clearly as I'm going to say it now, is I used to be out in the field coaching. Yeah, you cannot coach from your desk. You can. So, so if we're not asking our managers, you know, let's say, uh, you know, we're talking, and I say, okay, it's Monday today. How many days are you going to be out coaching this week? If I'm not asking you that question, I'm not sending you the right messages as to what's important. So, one is messaging and what the system is and what's rewarded. Number two, you probably need to train people how to be better coaches. But if it's not reinforced, that's a waste of time and money. Yeah, but, but, but to me, it's not the manager's fault because the data shows. And, and this is, this is data I've quoted. If you're out more often in the field, regardless of how good a coach you are, you get much more lift just by being there and, and showing them the love. And, and many managers say, oh, I've got older reps, they don't want me out with them. Right, I'm sure you've heard that one. Right?

Speaker B: I've said it. I've seen a lot. I mean, a lot of my managers, uh, that I'm privileged to train. Stephen, are much younger than their, uh, team. Interesting dynamic. Right. Because we have to coach them together.

Speaker A: But it's all the time.

Speaker B: It's.

Speaker A: Every salesforce in the world has that.

Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because it's that classic thing. And I know our sector is different. No, everyone's got the same problems. It doesn't matter. It's pharmaceutical fmcg.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Sas, uh, agriculture, agribusiness. They all think they're different. They're not. They're all the same. You know that and I know that, but they think they're different. Let's move on to another question for you, Stephen. Is this whole concept of enforcement. Enforcement?

Speaker A: Yes. You promised me we were going to.

Speaker B: I call it commitment. You call it enforcement. It's a scary word. Break it down.

Speaker A: If you watch, if you watch American news, you think it's ice.

Speaker B: Yeah, right.

Speaker A: And that's not what I'm talking about. And also, people Think when I mention that word and it's, it's to shake people up a little bit. They think it's micromanagement. Yeah, right.

Speaker B: That's one.

Speaker A: Oh my God. They're going to be micromanaging me. It's not. Okay, and what, so what is it then? Right, that's the question. It's about holding standards. Mhm. What is critical that we do? Well, if my managers weren't coaching 10 days a month, I'd have a discussion with them.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because I, that is something that I hold the line on. Okay. You were sick or. I remember one manager said, stephen, you know, I didn't make my days because. Or no, sorry, I didn't hire that rep because I had to make my coaching days for the month. I said, okay, but you do have to hire a rep, right? She says, yes. I said, okay, I will count hiring days in your lot just because that's the right thing to do. Right. M. So I dropped the standard a little bit. But it's part of it, holding standards. It's not micromanaging on everything. But what's critical if you don't hold the line on it, generally under pressure, there is no line, it immediately breaks. And so it's a few things that you want to hold your people to a standard. And if the reps, let's say, for example, writing up deals, there's a way to write up deals in your organization and you think, okay, we'll just put that through. As a manager, you're not holding the standards.

Speaker B: Yeah, I agree, I agree.

Speaker A: Well, it's not more, it's not more complicated, that it's not evil, but it's being clear that this is a standard and this is what we're going to hold you accountable to. Because if we don't, then we run into problems. It's not everything you do. I don't want to watch everything you do. I don't have time for that.

Speaker B: I agree. I want to expand on that. Stephen, I've now caught my train of thought on the other question, which will

Speaker A: come back to beautiful.

Speaker B: But before we go there, let's finish this enforcement thing because it's a very important, uh, topic which comes through the book, uh, loud and clear. You say you have the enforcement spine, okay. And it has five elements, and you have non negotiables, inspection points, graduated response, closed loops, and peer visibility. So if a sales leader was listening today and they could only put one in place of that enforcement spine, which one would they put in place in your advice?

Speaker A: You know uh, it's built on five. How can you put one in place?

Speaker B: I know it's like saying, who's your favorite child? I know it's a really, really hard question, but, like, let me ask Stephen.

Speaker A: I actually, I keep this with me, to be honest with you, because, uh,

Speaker B: let me ask it.

Speaker A: Every now and then somebody asks me about the enforcement. Uh, I don't want to get caught. I don't want to get caught on

Speaker B: that one, but that's okay. So I'm not, you know, I'm not catching you.

Speaker A: No, no, no. I know that's a great question. I want to be able to answer it.

Speaker B: Let me answer the question in a way that will help you answer it. If that's okay. If you're open to that.

Speaker A: Okay, go ahead.

Speaker B: If you could only choose one, one of those things that would give the team the biggest lift or leverage for the next quarter, which one would it be?

Speaker A: Uh, well, I'll tell you. It's between two. One is establishing. I call it cadence.

Speaker B: Yes, I love that.

Speaker A: Weekly coaching performance inspections, early intervention.

Speaker B: Love it. Okay.

Speaker A: The other is what I call non negotiable standards. We just talked about. That is what is not optional. Preparation for a call. Make sure you come with evidence. And owning the customer. But they all die if you don't actually review them.

Speaker B: Yes, exactly. So.

Speaker A: So you're at your favorite children. I don't know how many children you have. I have two, so they're both my favorites. One's my favorite boy.

Speaker B: I have three. And my daughter's my favorite daughter because she's my only. Daugh. So that's, uh. Now, Stephen, time is on us. But I want to just ask. I've come back to the thing that I completely balled up on. We talked about in m. Rural and you said no, actually, it happens in every sector. It happens in pharmaceutical. In every sector, you often have a top rep that is younger and promoted. How do they manage older reps? And particularly the old rep might be mates or buddies with the owner. You know, you've always, you know, and they've been there. And Dave or Bill. Bob's been there for 25 years. And Steven, now the new manager. How. How would you coach that new manager to coach someone much older than. Which is sometimes very overwhelming for them.

Speaker A: Yes. Yes, it is. And I call it. Sometimes you have to start with the toughest nut to crack when you're coaching as a new manager. M. And, you know, some of it's getting other people on board or getting this person on board to move the rest of the team.

Speaker B: But.

Speaker A: But here's the reality. Uh, it's a story that I'm going to botch, but it was a surgeon who's been top of his game for years, and he felt he was slipping a little bit, and he brought in one of his retired colleagues. You've, uh, heard this story at all, Gwand?

Speaker B: I know the story. Yeah. Okay.

Speaker A: So you probably know it better than me. He brought in one of his colleagues to watch his technique, and it's not that he did anything bad, but there was little subtle things that the guy picked up on because of the power of observation. And that's one way to sell it to your top rep. I'm not here to tell you what to do. You know much better than me. But isn't it great to have someone who can observe what you're doing and maybe provide some insights for you that you just don't see yourself because you're so used to doing things a certain way?

Speaker B: Yeah. Now, I would just preface that, Stephen, if I may. Is that, uh, that older, more senior mature rep. It's very. One of the biggest questions I ask when I coach teams or managers, the first question I ask the big bosses, men or women, I say, are they coachable? It's a very important question because your question you're asking was great, but it's falls on flat ears if they're not coachable, because if that top rep doesn't want to learn, they can be the real rock star. And in agriculture, we call it. We call this a red flag is when they use this word, my customers. My customers. So, you know, that's a bit of a red flag. So I think the premise on that is it's a beautiful question to ask, but they got to be coachable. Right. They've got to be coachable because we talked a lot about coaching this. But are your team and are your managers coachable? Because if that older rep isn't coachable, no amount of being a great coach as a new manager is going to turn the dial. What are your thoughts?

Speaker A: Well, I mean, I guess the question becomes is, do they belong on your team? Beautiful is one question. I, um, mean, you caught it for you. You handle that really nicely. So. Thank you. Uh, you know, I guess the end of the day, uh, you know, and usually these people are the ones who are bringing in a good portion of the revenue. Yeah. So, you know, one of the ways to look at your coaching is a reward.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And if these don't. If these you Know, if these people think they know it all, which, uh, you know, I do believe observation, you can learn stuff from observation, even if you're at the top of your game. You know, Tiger woods doesn't say, I'm going to crash another car. I mean, he doesn't say, I'm perfect. It's always about working on, improving. Uh, but some people, you're right. Some people think, you know, I've been here for 25 years, I've seen six managers or 12 managers in the time. I'm going to outlast you as well. I've heard that. Right. That's, you know, but, but I think you have to try as opposed to avoid.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Because they've had, they've had good success with other managers saying, okay, I'm not going to coach Tony because he doesn't even want me here. Yeah, yeah, right. I think, I think that's the wrong way to go. But I guess if you determine that at some point they're not coachable, then, um, so do I have time for a little story here?

Speaker B: Yeah, you have got plenty of time. Go for it. Okay.

Speaker A: Okay. So, uh, you know, in between, uh, leaving the corporate world, I did apply for one job. It was VP of sales for a generic, uh, company. They make generic drugs. And the owner used to be the VP of sales or the CEO, whatever. And he wanted to give it up and bring someone in. And he said, stephen, you know what, you know, you're an ideal candidate. I'd love to bring you in. And I asked one important question. If I decided to fire half the team, would you be okay with that?

Speaker B: Great question.

Speaker A: I never took the job because the answer was basically, uh, we can't do that. I wasn't saying I'm going to do that. The question was, do I have autonomy to act?

Speaker B: Yeah, great question.

Speaker A: I think he must have just freaked out saying, who is this guy? But the bottom line is, you know, if you don't have autonomy, it's very hard to, uh, be a leader. Right. You have to give your leader some autonomy.

Speaker B: Well said. I applaud you for having the confidence and the courage to ask question like, because it's so important that you have that mandate and you have that autonomy to do it, because naturally, otherwise. Exactly. Uh, people are going to self select. You know, I always say to people, when we coach your people and we train them, they will reveal themselves to us. You know, remember it's the Andrew Carnegie quote. It's like, I do not watch. I don't listen to what men Say I watch what they do. You know, it's the walk versus the talks, their behavior that gives them away. Stephen, last couple of questions for you. You coached loads of people for the last 25 plus years. I've got this question for you. Has the thing that you've had to enforce on yourself, we talked about enforcement, you know, this concept of enforcement. Has the thing you've had to enforce on yourself changed over those 25 years? Like, what's the discipline you still find hard to hold yourself to?

Speaker A: Well, here's the area that, uh, I always find most frustrating, uh, is following up on people calling, leaving messages and not getting responses. I'm not alone because I have lots of friends who experience that. Uh, but I try to push myself through, even though I may be frustrated. And sometimes I maybe go over the line. But that's one area that I'm trying to get better at still, uh, as to know when to just leave it or when I need to pursue it. And uh, that answers the question. But that's, that's probably one of the biggest challenges because I have a plan. I have a plan every day. Uh, you know, with this book, to be honest, I've reorientated my business. So I think this is, uh, there's some really unique things in here that companies can benefit from and you can't be in two places at one time. So I've kind of shed some of the old skin and really trying to, to focus on, uh, you know, leadership, discipline.

Speaker B: Yeah. So if, if I asked you this question, if I gave you a billboard on a highway, I think you call them highways in.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker B: And you wanted every rural sales leader to drive past, what would it say?

Speaker A: M. That's a good question. Uh, what it M might say, what it should say is that, ah, as a manager, your job is to help your people get better. It's to develop your people, it's to not spend time on tasks to take you away from doing that. Um, and the real key is people development. Make your people better, uh, get your team to be better and you will make more sales.

Speaker B: Yeah, well said. Well said.

Speaker A: That's a good question. I gotta have to think about that over dinner.

Speaker B: No, no, no. I mean, because it's the billboard test, because billboards literally are eight words or less and then they fail. This book, Stephen, is, as we say in the agriculture world, bloody brilliant. It's a bloody good book. Um, so that's well done, sir. Uh, if a sales leader read this book and we're going to put all your, all your resources in the show, notes and link to the book and everything else and could only act on one thing. You were only allowed your last dying breath on this earth would say, there's one thing I want you to do from reading this book. What's the one thing you hope they would do? Mhm.

Speaker A: I know what it is. Please, what would it be for you?

Speaker B: I think it would be commitment to coaching.

Speaker A: Okay. That wasn't. That's a good one.

Speaker B: It's not what important what I say.

Speaker A: For me, for me, if they can take away from chapter five the three things. Anytime I started a new job, uh, nobody trained me on this. It was what are the three things we need to do to be successful or I need to do or the team needs to do. And to me that's the starting point.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Of building. Because it creates focus. And if you can do those three things well and all the other stuff, hold yourself accountable. You're team. But to me, the thinking every year when I have new clients. Okay, let's talk about the three things you need to do this year to crush your numbers.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I think that's a great takeaway. It's not rocket science, as I said, but it's focus.

Speaker B: Stephen, I absolutely love this chat. Uh, well done for putting this book out into the world. This is such a good book.

Speaker A: Thank you for, for saying that.

Speaker B: I read a lot of books. I'm uh, always trying to get better and there's plenty that I have to work on. I'm m. Certainly a work in progress. But I congratulate you on writing such a straightforward, clear, grounded, pragmatic book. Uh, every sales leader, I mean this, every sales leader needs to read this book. This is a fantastic book and it says everything that you've said in here. I so, so appreciate, uh, you coming on the show. I know your time is incredibly valuable and we're really looking forward to hopefully your third book, the trilogy. Uh, the trilogy.

Speaker A: I gotta get the second. Second's pretty much, uh, in the bank. Third maybe, but so first on this, we've had success. We've had some great feedback on the book, to be honest with you. Uh, it takes a bit of time. We, I launched February 24th. We've had a number of really positive reviews. Uh, remember I asked you when we talked about, uh, coming on? I said, are you going to read the book? Because for me that makes such rich conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think you have to respect your guests, Stephen, so you need to read the books.

Speaker A: You know, others I've asked the question. They said, well, we skim through AI and uh, so on and so forth. But the questions you asked me today and the richness, it's not a hard read, but the richness is actually taking the time to go through it. And I'm the worst, one of the worst readers in the world. But I've had to read my book a couple times.

Speaker B: It's like pulling teeth. It's like going to the dentist saying, we're putting out a book shortly. Third book for me. And yeah, not, not to the standard yours. But I just, I want to talk to you about this page, uh, 115. This is just to prove that I've read the book to you. I want to read. This is Focus Execution, which is chapter 10. This is the paper book, version 115. Now I'm gonna play a little game with you. I'm m gonna play a little game with you.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I am going to. No, I'm not gonna play a game. I'm just going to tell you because it's so important that you said. I read this out to my rural sales manager group that I train each and every Tuesday, I said, and, uh, you can see it here highlighted. Okay. Coaching is not extra work. It is the work. And you know, to be honest, that's worth, worth the whole book. It's worth the whole book.

Speaker A: Well, there, there you go. Um, that's the job. It's developing your people.

Speaker B: That's the job.

Speaker A: The best way to, best way to do it is to, to coach them. So, uh, just focused execution. That again, is something I developed many years ago based on my principles.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, uh, I'm not here to sell. We, we've done workshops with companies on what we call focused execution. M. And uh, some people told me those are the best sessions that I have. I do very little in the session because the group does all the work. So I don't know what that means. But I thought, okay, I don't do a lot of work. But you get. But we have. Basically I'll describe it because it could be done by, by, uh, if you have three managers, that's probably a minimum. But, uh, I bring everyone together in a room, all the leadership team, and we say, write down what you think are one of the critical things for success. You know, the three things. And then we, and then we do. We post everything up on a board and we cluster ideas. I think it's called clustering. Uh, a clustering session. Yeah. Okay. And so there could be 50 different things. And we then cluster them into ideas, and then we write down the ideas. And then, because there's usually 6, 7, or 8 that come out of it, we have people vote on their 1, 2, and 3 or 3 things that they think are the best.

Speaker B: Such good exercise.

Speaker A: And those become the three things. So the same approach that I take with coaching strategy, uh, execution. We take the same approach. What are the three things you have to do? So, again, it's not rocket science. And then we work on how. That's the what. And then we work on the how. And the how takes a long time, you know, uh, depending on that's where

Speaker B: the rubber hits the road. You know, I think really beautiful book called Good Strategy, Bad Strategy, forgot the author, but it's well known, and he said, you know, like, strategy is often mistaken for goals. And it's like, okay, well, that's the what. That's the goal. But everyone thinks the strategy is a goal. It actually comes down to the execution. And then your important word, which is enforcement. So. And, you know that accountability loop that you might talk about. But I mean, your three things, it's such a. Such a simple framework for people to take away. So, Stephen, I'm. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for being so generous. Thanks for putting out just such a bloody good book. Uh, where do people get hold of you, sir? How do they connect with you?

Speaker A: Okay, so, uh, I'm on LinkedIn a lot. I publish every day, uh, content usually, uh, around discipline and, uh, uh, execution and predictability of, uh, your forecasts. So you can find me on LinkedIn. Steven Rosenberg. I have a website called StarResults.com. you can find me there. And my book is available on Amazon. Uh, and I think there's other bookstores that have it, because when I Google it, I see a lot of places that I haven't gone to. But there's a company that distributes my book out all over the world. But, uh, not that I want to make Bezos any richer, but it's a good point of contact, uh, to find my book. Uh, you know, they're, uh. Uh, you know, they ship all over the world. Where did you. Where did you get it from?

Speaker B: I got it from Blackwell's, which is in the UK because they have free and they come in a bundle. And, um, I can't show you the mess that's on my desk here, but I've got books stacked up. I've got David Brock's book, uh, is Good Enough. Good Enough. That's next door to me. And he'll be our guest coming on for a second time. Oh, nice.

Speaker A: I, like I did Dave Brock. We discussed this and our thoughts are very similar.

Speaker B: Such a good man, like, much like yourself. And it's just an absolute pleasure to talk to guys, guys and girls like you. Because I learned so much. I've always said, you know, um, even if the listenership was a selfish listenership of one and me, um, then I absolutely, I thoroughly enjoy this conversation. Stephen said, thank you for, um, giving us your time in Toronto, Stephen. What a, What a pleasure to talk to you and learn from you. And, uh, I know very much we'll stay, stay in touch. And, uh, thank you for coming on a small little show, but sharing all your wisdom.

Speaker A: Well, I'm sure we're going to own New Zealand, so I'm teasing you, but, uh, thank you for, for one, all the nice things you've said about the book. Uh, I'm very proud of it. I tease Mike Weinberg that I'm a late bloomer because I've known him for like 15 years. We met 15 years ago and, uh, he had his books out. And I said, I'm not going to write a book. I don't. I wrote one, which, uh, you know, was, uh, an easygoing book. Uh, and then for some reason, I had my epiphany. Okay, I'm writing a book. Oh, I'm going to write three books. But anyways, we'll get there. One step.

Speaker B: And I like how you've written it from your own lived experience. And, um, when you say late bloomer, let's just call you fine wine. Should we go with that?

Speaker A: Okay, you know what? That's fine. I let late bloomer always look for the pity, you know. Oh, look at him.

Speaker B: Stephen, thank you very much. Thank you for coming on the show. We're big fans, big supporters. You'll see a lot of, a lot of, uh, a lot of support and love for you in LinkedIn. And thank you for putting out such a beautiful book into the world.

Speaker A: Thank you so much for your time and reading the book and, uh, your generous comments.

Speaker B: Hey, you. Hope you enjoyed this episode and you learned lots from it. It takes a wee bit of work to get these wonderful, amazing guests who are, uh, leaders in their own field on our tiny little show, who share their knowledge with you freely and generously. So it makes a lot of sense for me to ask you a tiny, tiny favor in return, which is to rate, subscribe or share the podcast or grow this YouTube channel. With your family or friends or colleagues or anyone in your network that you think will benefit from from listening or subscribing to it. The reason for my request is really, really simple. I'm on an absolute mission to elevate and improve the world's perception and therefore performance of rural sales reps and rural managers like yourself, which in turn helps every rural business owner or leader on the planet. I do that by doing my very best to share the most effective sales and marketing strategies with world class leaders and thinkers so you can get the leads, respect and sales results you deserve. But I can only do that when you help me get this channel and our podcast out to a bigger, wider audience. And the bigger the audience, the better our guests are going to be. So if you can help us with that, that would be brilliant. Now, as you know, unlike other podcasts, we don't include any of those annoying ads that interrupt your listening experience. But I would be doing a disservice if I didn't make sure that you grab a free copy of my how to Succeed in Rural Sales ebook which would normally cost you 20 bucks on Amazon. You get that for free as a subscriber or podcast listener. Or you can find out more about our rural sales team training or rural sales manager training, um, programs. You can do all this at our resources page, which is below the video here, which is www.ruralsalessuccess.com where you can, um, click on and download copies of my other books here. I have another book out, uh, last year based on Ryan Halliday's brilliant book the Daily Stoic and it's called 365 Rules to Master Rural Sales Success. So Mastering Yourself, Mastering Rural Sales and Mastering Rural Sales Management. It's kind of a three in one so make sure you get that as well. And, and also in the notes below here you have an access to my free new AI training tool called Field Coach IO which can talk to you and train you 24 7, anywhere, anytime zone. No lag, no waiting, get answers that you need right there and then for the deals that you're working on. It's got all my IP inside its knowledge base which is extensive. 13 years of IP that you're never going to access from the likes of Chat or Claude or Gemini or Grok. And uh, you can instantly get access to Touch of a Baton with no waiting. It, uh, will coach you or train you on your specific live sales scenario you're facing, whether it's pricing or timing objections. Existing supplier, high authority farmers that have ghosted you on quotes, the specific questions you need to ask to make those conversations count. It will even analyze your sales calls for you to put you right where you might be going wrong as well as map out your territories. It syncs to Google Maps and Google My Maps and process your export leads from CRM to pro prioritize which leads you need to follow up with the highly hyper specific customized relevant follow up. You need to get those deals, those dead deals revived in your CRM. So whatever you need is going to give you immediate specific answers and you don't need to suffer or struggle whilst you wait for answers even from me. So immediate instant coaching right there and then just when you need it. Or even talk to you in your truck as you're about new territory which is awesome. You ah as long as you've got great Internet covering. So um, our members and Field coach are absolutely loving what it's doing for me. So many more use cases I could bore you with sensors here and my development team are now adding new tools to it all the time. So you can take Field coach for a spin a 15 day test drive and try it out. See it out for yourself for just $1. The link to field coach is in uh, the notes below as well. So I personally want to thank you my friend, my dear listener and subscriber for sharing the show with others. Really, really appreciate that because we can make a difference. Difference. It's heart yourselves is hard enough. Thank you for investing your time with me and my guests because I know you're super busy. It's very busy and noisy out there. You've got many choices and options where you choose to spend and invest your very valuable precious time. So hope it's been time well spent for you and you've learned something from us and our guests and it's helping you become a better rep or manager or you as a human being, appreciate it and appreciate you.