“I always try to surround myself with people I believe are brilliant” - with Steve Tennant CEO, EMEA of Grant Thornton Advisors

Speaker A: Hello and welcome to the Renatus Podcast. My name is Greg Dilger and I'm delighted to be joined today by Steve Tennant, the managing partner of Grant Thornton Ireland and head of Grant Thornton Advisors. Emea. I knew Grant Thornton had made progress in recent years, but I must admit I had no idea of the scale of that progress. They now have 3,000 employees and revenues north of 350 million. In this podcast, we're going to talk briefly about Steve's early life in Scotland and how he got to come to Ireland and Grant Thornton and of course about Grant Thornton's phenomenal growth in recent years. Mostly though, we're going to talk about what's going on in Grant Thornton now following the recent private equity driven merger with Grant Thornton Advisors in the US Why did they do it, how did they do it and what's the plan going forward? Very exciting times for Grant Thornton. So over to you, Steve. Early days in Scotland.

Speaker B: Thanks Greg. And, uh, yeah, no, great to be here. Delighted to be on board. So the early days in Aberdeen. Well, the journey for me began in Fort William, uh, which is in the Highlands of Scotland. Um, basically the bottom of Ben Nevis is where Fort William lands. And I was there for a number of years, um, as a child. Then my dad got a job in the oil rigs. Um, Aberdeen, which is where I grew up, was synonymous with oil. And we moved to Aberdeen. Um, I went to school in Aberdeen. I started my football in Aberdeen. And uh, yeah, that was the beginning chapter. Ah, as I wanted to be a professional football player. Um, and Aberdeen was my base for that. So I played football, soccer, uh, as the Irish may call it, played football for all my years, ah, into and up to a teen. I then signed a contract for Dundee. Um, and as I say, my dad was still working in the rig, so he was four weeks on and four weeks off. My mum was working in Aberdeen. Um, and yeah, my life beginning in Aberdeen was to be a professional footballer record. Okay.

Speaker A: No thought of accountancy or anything at this stage.

Speaker B: No. Academically, I wasn't magnificent, to be honest. Where we were in my school, I mean, again, and just even quickly on the upbringing, I had a great upbringing, uh, really supportive family. Brother and sister who are twins, three years older. Um, mum and dad didn't have much, but like, we had a good environment to grow up in and um, I was very happy with that. Uh, I wouldn't have known what an accountant was when I was growing up. Okay. I, uh, was fully focused, fully focused on being a professional football player.

Speaker A: Okay. So what ended that?

Speaker B: Talent, uh, and lack of it, unfortunately. Um, and again, one of my managers is a couple, but one of my managers as I was growing up was my father. So my dad would be the coach and he'd pick me captain, center, midfield, all the time. And he wasn't one of these coaches come dads who were really hard on you. He was the opposite. He was building up to be a superstar. So. So I think I believed it for a while. And I was, uh, on the books of Dundee, which is a professional club down there, and I did a couple of years just traveling up and down from Aberdeen, and I wasn't good enough. Never going to be good enough.

Speaker A: At least you admitted a lot of people remember themselves as being better than they were.

Speaker B: No, not me. Not me. I kind of felt like it was cheating. I was really loud, and maybe this is part of the future career, but I was a great communicator. I was center half. I was always kind of captain of all the teams I had. So I had good camaraderie with it with my fellow teammates. And that got me through a lot, to be honest. It made me stand out in the pitch a little bit. But, yeah, there's a certain point you're just not good enough.

Speaker A: Okay, so, um, after you accepted the

Speaker B: soccer was over, went to college? Yeah, I went to college in Aberdeen, and again, there's a theme here. So I went to college in Aberdeen and I studied business. I was lucky, I'd say, to get into that course. It was a good course. It was very, ah, social. I managed to get into sports, ah, with the college as well. So I had a great life. Um, I lived at home for the first year of college, then moved out and things were going great. It's there and then that I met my now wife, granja. I was 2020, just about to turn 21, and I met Granja in a bar in Aberdeen.

Speaker A: Gronja from Ireland.

Speaker B: Granja's from Ireland? Yeah, the Irish. There's a big Irish contingent in Aberdeen for pharmacy, Dietetics. My wife's a dietitian. And we met Gronj when I was 20. And that was obviously a major milestone in my life now. Uh, that was a big part of it. So did business studies. The third year in the business studies course was, ah, a placement year. And again, I was late academically. I wasn't as focused as I should have been, so I was late applying for my internship year. So I got what was left. And what was left was a job in PwC. To do insolvency. I didn't know who PwC were and I certainly didn't know what insolvency was. Very good.

Speaker A: Okay. And how long, uh, did you persevere?

Speaker B: Yeah, so it was a year, and then you go back and do your final year. So I did the year in insolvency, PwC, and thought, this is magnificent. Right, everyone, you're in an office environment. Everyone's drinking sparkling water. It didn't feel like work, to be honest. And it's kind of like, yeah, this. This is all right. I could do a bit of this. So I suppose the bug. I caught the bug and it started there in PwC. And then I went back to college and I had a job offer to go back to PwC, but I fancied something a little bit smaller. So I joined a firm called IRSM straight out of college and. And I went there not to be an accountant. I joined. It was an accountancy practice. I joined just because it was the job. I was going to do insolvency. And then they were kind of like, you know, you should do your exams.

Speaker A: And.

Speaker B: And I did my exams, but not the traditional way. I did them in evenings and weekends, um, and did my full day job as opposed to training as an auditor and all that.

Speaker A: And how did the. I know Michael McAteer, I think, was your link with Grant Thornton. How did you come across him?

Speaker B: He comes later, actually, because we. We did Aberdeen for two years. And this is. This is a good part of the story, actually. My wife, uh, finished college year later than me. She started a year later, so she qualified as a dietitian. And there's only one hospital in Aberdeen and there wasn't a job there for Garnier. So we got to this stage where we were very serious. Uh, but it's like, if we're going to stay together, we're going to have to. We're going to have to move somewhere together. And where I'm from, in Aberdeen, like, no one leaves. Okay, why would you leave? It's Aberdeen. Why would anyone want to leave Aberdeen? I liken it a lot, uh, when I tell the story about it, too. Movie Good Will Hunting, which is there in Southie, in Boston. And it's Matt Damon and Brilliant and Ben Affleck, and it's like, Matt Damon should leave. Should leave Southie. But no one ever leaves Southie. No one ever leaves Aberdeen. So I had no intention of going until it was quite starkly put to me by Granjo, which is, look, if we're Staying together. I'm going, so you're going to have to come. And I think at first I was like, not m sure. And then obviously, uh, we went to the rest just. Yeah. So we went to Leeds. We went to Leeds for 10 years, nine years. And Leeds was, uh. I went down to work for a firm called Baker Tilly there. Continued my professional career. Uh, Granny worked in a big teaching hospital in Leeds. And we started life in Leeds, which is a great city, a really underrated city. We could have went to London, Birmingham or Leeds. We chose Leeds. And it was fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. We had the best years, uh, in our 20s living in Leeds, great friends. And I was developing my career. I got to senior manager in Baker Tilly. And again, this was largely working in restructuring insolvency. And I was, I suppose, getting a little bit bored, um, and a little bit. Well, is there more to life than professional services? Is this for me? So, uh, at that point, um, I was approached by Mick McTier. Um, and Mick, uh, had one of his side hustles was he had an insolvency startup business and they were looking for managing director in the uk. Um, it was a chance for me

Speaker A: to be part of.

Speaker B: Part of a startup, get out of the professional services space for a while.

Speaker A: So I'm sorry, he's in Dublin and you're in Leeds. How did that.

Speaker B: He flew to Leeds, Bradford Airport. It came in through, uh, I think it was a mutual recruiter we knew, Headhunter, uh, who just rang me off spec. I don't know. I think they were either brilliant at their job and knew that I had an Irish connection or lucky. But whether brilliant or lucky, uh, it landed. I met Mick. Uh, we got very well and, yeah, I left Baker Tilly and, uh, started in startup.

Speaker A: Okay. And, uh, at what point did the, uh, Irish thing come?

Speaker B: Yeah, it was always on the cards. So part of me doing that, taking the job was one of my unwritten contractual elements was that Mick would bring me back to Dublin.

Speaker A: And presumably Granj was keen on.

Speaker B: Very keen to come home. We were going to start family, uh, Irish women and families. We wanted to be close to Gronj's family. She's a good extended family in Ireland. So we were always coming home. And home is Ireland. So I was happy with that. I'd been to Dublin a lot, um, and I'd been down. The family had a home in Wicklow at the time. So I'd been down to Wicklow. Loved it. Great people, sports, mad great environment, Great for business. Great for fun crack. So there was no hesitation, me coming to Ireland. I just had to find the right vehicle to get here. And the linking with Mick. I did two years in the startup. Uh, we sold the business. I came over and I started working Grant Thornton.

Speaker A: So you've ended up there a number of years later as the managing partner of Grant Thornton. So it just so happened, I think 2009 is when you came in. Yeah. So obviously the economy was, you know, had been stressed before. Then it's starting to sort of get going again. What happened? I obviously referred to the numbers, the revenues and then the, um, employee numbers at the beginning. Staggeringly big. I was thinking earlier, if I was in a pub quiz, I would have. I was asked those stats, it'd be much lower. I would have thought that. But so what happened in Grant Thornton in Ireland during that period? So that led to those numbers?

Speaker B: Lots, Craig, Lots happened and lots of good stuff. Um, obviously it was to start with 2009 when I joined. My specialty was restructuring. Um, 2009 narrowing was a tough time. Ah, there was a lot of restructuring work, ah, to be done, and that continued for a number of years. So, uh, it was very busy in a professional sense. And again, when you're dealing with restructuring, it's tough, right, because some of the circumstances you are in are not pleasant circumstances. And then certainly it was very busy. It was tough at times. I came over to Ireland and again, professional services, as you grow in it, you realize it's a lot of networks and people, you know, and, and how you build people and the clients that you work with. What that relationship, like, how deep is that relationship? I came over to Ireland 2009. I didn't know anybody outside of my, uh, in laws effectively, and Granja growing his friends, growing his family, and it was quite daunting.

Speaker A: That must have been helpful in your job.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, it was, yeah. True, true. Uh, it was daunting in a sense, though, because obviously, uh, I didn't know anyone, I didn't have a big friends network. And that's where sport comes back to again. I did play football when I came over. One of the things throughout my life and career, uh, which has been really interesting is, is the transferability of sport to business and business to sport. I think both. Both the interconnectivity there is really strong, and it certainly stood to me when I come over to Ireland. I met a lot of people through sports. Uh, when I come over in 2009, you mix that with the people you meet through Grant Thornton, the people you meet through work, clients, referrers. Uh, a lot of my best friends now were people I met in that time. And, uh, it was great because I had no option but to extend the network, but to meet people because I was starting from scratch. So, yeah, 2009, the restructuring work was very heavy. Ah, we built a big practice in restructuring and to the point where Grant Thornton was known for restructuring insolvency for a number of years. Thankfully, it's moved on. Far from that now, but we were. 2009, probably 2013, 14, we were known as a restructuring insolvency house.

Speaker A: Do you mind me asking, uh, you see the same names coming up again and again. How do you, how do you sort of get leadership in that market? What's the big.

Speaker B: We went for scale. So we had, at the time, uh, we had Paul McCann, we had Mick McAteer, we had, uh, Paddy Dillon, we had myself, Steve Tennant, you got Nick Odwyer, he came through. So we went for scale. We had more practitioners than we believe are competitors. We got to a market leading position. We had the biggest practice. We were doing probably some of the more interesting work. Uh, so you invest, you take like, like all things in business, right? You got to take a risk. So you take the, take the risk, uh, that people will want to use your service, uh, and then you can provide a good quality service, which we did. Uh, so we went heavy and deep into the insolvency market. And then obviously that practice grew very, very significantly, very quickly. And along with it, Grant Thornton started to rise. Um, you asked, go back to your question of what's happened from 2009 onwards. It's a group of, it's one of those unique circumstances where I think you have a group of exceptional people, exceptionally hungry and driven people who are of the same mindset, who want to achieve something pretty special. Right. Because again, we're back there, right? And we might keep going back there. We, uh, are. I was very lucky to be part of that. And it's just, it's been great to be a part of it. I still am. A part of was. When you're living it, you don't really feel it, uh, you don't really see it. But looking back from the outside now to. And when I chat to someone like you, Greg, and you're like, I didn't know about Thornton. This, uh, it was an amazing journey, genuinely an amazing journey of really motivated people pulling in the right direction.

Speaker A: Amazing. And, you know, you then moved from restructuring. I don't know what precipitated the move into financial services, I think. Was it?

Speaker B: Yeah. Again, the want of change, I believe. Imposter syndrome. Let's go there for a second.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I think it gets a bad name. I like imposter syndrome. I think you should always feel uncomfortable every now and then, whether it's every two years, every three years. I like, if you're not going into a room thinking, oh, God, do I belong here? Is this right for me? Is this a fit? Am I earning my keep here? I don't think you're challenging yourself enough. So I was a big, big believer, and I'm a big believer of change and trying to challenge yourself in new ways on an ongoing basis. So, uh, restructuring. One, the market was dying down. Two, I was ready for a change. As I say, it'd been full on for a number of years and Grant Thornton hadn't got. It hadn't expanded a range of financial services quite to match the growth that we'd had.

Speaker A: When we say financial services in this context, I presume you're talking about services provided to banks, insurance companies.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker A: You hadn't really much of a presence there.

Speaker B: Not really at all. We did a little bit of audit work, uh, but nothing more than that, particularly in advisory. So, yeah, your banks, your asset management houses, your insurance companies, aviation. We believe there's a good opportunity for the Grant Thornton brand to grow that area.

Speaker A: Ah, so I presume you just knocked on doors and met people and just kept pushing and pushing and.

Speaker B: Yeah, hired. Ah, got a lot of good people around us because you can't in financial services. It's, it's an expertise game. Yeah, you've got to have people who know what they're doing. Yeah, you've got to have people who have lived, who have the war stories and have lived, lived the battles effectively through. It's a heavily regulated industry. Uh, so we needed to tool up. Um, we got outside help. And again, uh, for example, in the asset management space, friends I have now for life, I met through there, uh, one of my good mentors was really, really strong in just introducing us to a network that we didn't know existed. So, yeah, we built a practice. A lot of hard work, but we built a practice pretty much from scratch, actually.

Speaker A: You know the phrase, the commonly used phrase, the big four in accountancy?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, and you're somewhere underneath that. You can tell me later where that is. I might even be five now, the way we're going. But, um, were you. And are you very conscious of that top four or the big Four. Are you actively competing to actually get into the Big Four? Or do you want it to be the Big Five? Or is it a thing?

Speaker B: It's a great question. It is a thing. Uh, it's not a thing for me. Uh, but it is a thing. Yeah, it is. And we are the fifth largest in Ireland just now. Um, but we don't talk about that. I never talk about it.

Speaker A: The largest is revenues. Is it?

Speaker B: Yeah, revenue. Go by revenue. Um, the Big Four. There's some great firms in there. I know all of the leaders of those firms. Uh, medmol, the great firms. We've all. It's a small community, right. So we've all got friends, family, who are extended in those firms, and they're magnificent. Never want to be that. Uh, Grant Thornton doesn't want to be that. Grant Thornton wants to be in a space in its own space in its own, uh, which is. I think we can, we can compete with the Big Four. We can compete in the mid market space, we can compete in the multinational client space. And we want to create a space entirely for us. And we're really comfortable with that.

Speaker A: When you're, when you're Getting up to 3,000 people, like, is nimble still a possibility?

Speaker B: I think we're, I think we've. We're a firm growing up with an entrepreneurial spirit. I don't think that's leaving us. Uh, I don't want it to leave us. And it certainly is something that we'd be conscious of. Are we as nimble now as we were in 2009? Uh, not quite, but we're not far off.

Speaker A: Okay. It's funny, I was going to ask a question. I have a list of stuff here. I was going to ask about the culture, but I think you've actually explained it in your last piece. So you were at a later point. You can tell me exactly when you were appointed managing partner of the firm. Was that a surprise? Did someone sort of tap you on the back? You didn't think was. Were you ready for that? Did you expect it? Did you want it?

Speaker B: Yeah, expect and want are good, good ways to look at it. Uh, so I took over the job in the first Jan, 2004. There was an election, uh, process in 2023. I never had, uh, a huge thirst to be the boss, to be the managing partner of Grant Thornton. Certainly as the career evolved, and again, go back to the imposter syndrome piece change, uh, challenge yourself, it became more of an option. And certainly there was a strong support from the partnership in 23 for me to run. Mick. Mark Dier was before me, and Mick was stepping down. So I had a few taps in the shoulder. All right. I wasn't opposed to it. I was really having fun in the financial services world. Uh, the business was going great, so it wasn't a burning need to take on the job. But obviously you want to progress. And one of the things, one of the key drivers, aside from the tap and shoulders, was that I do think our profession is changing and we might get into that. I think it's changing now more than it ever has. And I thought, if there's ever going to be a time to do that job, it's now because you want to be holding the steering wheel. As you're going into that story, I

Speaker A: think it's interesting that Michael M. McIntyre was. He was there at the beginning of your journey in Darling. Now he's there in this, you know, so he's obviously, you're kind of. He's a sort of mentor to you, I suspect, over the years.

Speaker B: Yeah, we go very well. I mean, there was this Mick. There's, uh, Paul McCann, who was also part of that journey.

Speaker A: He's an hour ago now.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And, uh, then there's another guy, Paddy Dillon, who. We grew up together at the firm. We came through the same journey. It's Paddy who'd be now helping me with a lot of the global work that we're doing.

Speaker A: Okay. So were you 45 or something when

Speaker B: you became managing partner? Yeah, 45.

Speaker A: And you're 47.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Now, probably. You're definitely not probably. Definitely the youngest managing partner that I've come across in my.

Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if that's a thing. Maybe it is, Greg. I'll take your word for that.

Speaker A: I think it is. I think when we get onto the strategy and all that, you kind of need to be young to be doing what you're going to do. So let's talk a little bit about the merger, which is what we really want to talk about today. It's great we've got some context about you and about Granthorne in Ireland. What's really precipitated the change here is something that happened in the States, where the New Mountain, a very large private equity firm, invested in Grant Thornton Advisors in the US Just not much of that happening over there. It's disruption in the real sense, but private equity coming into professional services. And that happened. I think, uh, the audit piece was hived off to the side because the audit is More complex. There's regulation around that. So that couldn't be part of a private equity ownership. But that happened in the US and this all exciting plans. And I'm sure New Mountain would explain very clearly what their strategy is. And I'm sure you know it because you're probably living it right now. But following that, then I'm making this assumption that there's kind of a European platform kind of missing in that. And, and this is where you came in. So explain to us how, how all this happened.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'll go back to the start. Right. So I, I took the job. January 24th, the US completed their deal with New Mountain Capital, private equity investment. And again, you touched on, Greg. Private equity is in the professional services space. It wasn't five years ago. It is now, and it is in a big way. There's pretty much no firm in the US outside of the Big Four. And again, uh, some of the Big Four are looking at restructuring options now. Some have looked at them in the past. We are now very much joined by every other firm in the US that has taken some form of capital. It might be a debt restructuring, um, it may be private equity, but there has been transformation in the US and now in the uk and it's in Ireland quite significantly as well.

Speaker A: Could I just ask you, if New Mountain hadn't come along to do this deal with your American friends, was there a chance of Grant Thornton Ireland actually doing this on their own, getting a private equity firm to invest in them, or would that have been a big jump?

Speaker B: There's always a chance. It wouldn't have been on the radar as quickly as it is now. We'd have to watch, we'd watch the evolution of the professional service industry in the last 18 months, and I think we'd be looking at something right now. Yeah, pretty certain of that. But we went first. Ah. And we went first because it came with New mountain in the U.S. they completed their deal in May 24th. I got a call to go to Florida at the time, uh, around then. So myself and Paddy spun off to Florida to start discussions around what an investment in Grant Thornton Ireland could look like. And again, it was really, really, really tough because again, you think you know a lot about life, you think you know a lot about business, but this is a whole new world.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And we're, we're kind of flying off a little bit of excitement, a little bit of.

Speaker A: And so why Ireland? They could have gone presumably to numerous

Speaker B: different affiliate in the grand Thornton world. The Irish firm is the star Star performer. Right. So we punch way above a weight. We are the fifth biggest firm in the whole entire Grand Thornton Network. We have our growth that we talked about earlier. It's been noticed in the Grant Thornton world. So we are seen to be a very progressive firm. So if there was a crown jewel in the network, I think that that was a good starting point. Uh, the U.S. and Ireland have great relationships, and that's a U.S. irish thing. As you know, we have always had a great working relationship with the US Firm. So that's another reason. Ah. And again, opportunity and timing is part of it.

Speaker A: And I presume New Mountain have very clear views about what they want to happen. They're very serious about. They put in many hundreds of millions into this, and they know and have a very clear idea how the business can evolve. Presumably you've learned some from their vision, plus whatever you have yourself. Tell me about how that evolves.

Speaker B: Yeah. And maybe we'll touch on what the master plan is as well. I think it's evolved certainly from a New Mountain to the US So that when they first invested in the US they would have looked at the Grant Thornton Network globally and said, m, that could be interesting, but it probably wasn't a priority. The Ireland deal happened. We were very clear from an Irish perspective that if we're going to do something in the space that we wanted it to be global, um, and on that basis, we kicked on really early to say we're happy to do this, and I'll talk about that process in a bit. When we made that decision, it was going to be conditional that we keep going and we look at other Grant Thornton firms. Because ultimately, and this gets back to the why. Um, one, the industry is changing. But two, all professional service firms are set up as franchise models.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So we're a network combines. We all.

Speaker A: We.

Speaker B: And we all believe in our networks, and we all combine with our networks and we collaborate. But we are individual businesses and individual geographies. Can I just ask you about sort

Speaker A: of cultural things we talked about earlier? Are you trying to have a similar culture in the mall, or are they. Are you allowed to have your own culture?

Speaker B: You're allowed 100% have your own culture. And again, it's a fair question, Greg. Cultural. Uh, because we've got language and culture. Right. Uh, every single firm has its own culture, and you wouldn't change it. You wouldn't break it. Like, you're buying good businesses here.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: And you're investing in good businesses. You don't want to break those cultures. Now, obviously, what you want is an overarching mission or ethos around that where you can all buy into. And I think we have that, uh, within the Grant Thornton Advisors platform. But the cultures remain local, the businesses remain locally managed. That's really important. The autonomy and the management has to stay local.

Speaker A: Okay. Uh, and you're obviously, you're going around Europe to different firms.

Speaker B: Yeah, we're back to that franchise model, Greg. So the whole industry is built up with franchises that become network. We're trying to take away that. So we all have common ownership. So we all have common equity in one business. We'll have that local culture, we'll have that local independence, but we're all hooked together with common equity.

Speaker A: But I presume you couldn't approach a non, uh, franchise, uh, non Grant Thornton business and bring them into the party.

Speaker B: We can and we are, and that's quite exciting, too. The first part of the strategy is, look, let's just see the really good Grant Thornton firms that are progressively thinking that, that want to be part of this, and we're having discussions with them. The next evolution phase will be in all of those markets. We want to follow on with investment because we're back to the private equity and what they want. They want growth. New Mountain Capital is a growth private equity fund. So they're fueled by growth and the growth. And I think there's various. From our own research, there's lots of different private equity firms. There's cost content. You get in, you flip. There's others. Yes. Uh, who are investing in the UK and German businesses. But New Mountain Capital were absolutely perfect for us because it's about growth. And the Grant Thornton Ireland story has all been about growth.

Speaker A: Okay, so a very obvious question then. It's this really exciting strategy and plan coming from New Mountain into you. You now have come through a number of years of really good growth. Your partners are doing very well. They're very comfortable in their positions and very happy at how they're going. I'm sure being well paid, with the sort of numbers you're earning, they're in a very good place. And you're now coming to tell them that they're going to tear up the traditional partner model, um, and we're going to do something very, very different. Now, that must have been a bit of a surprise to some people, maybe a positive surprise for some, maybe a negative surprise for others.

Speaker B: A surprise?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: No, I think surprise is probably not bad word for it. I don't think it was in anyone's bingo card. Two years ago or two, three years, three years previous. But we definitely, as a partnership. So all 100% of our partners voted in favor of what we did. Right. And that's an important point, um, because it's a hard thing to do if you don't have everyone behind it. Okay, um, do you have a rule

Speaker A: as to what you need in terms of support to get it over the line?

Speaker B: Yeah, it would have been 80%, because, like, to be honest, we wouldn't have done it if we weren't getting everyone on board. And from that perspective, uh, that's important because then everyone's joined up in the mission again and everyone can see the future benefit. It is a change. Uh, it's a change. And again, we talk about a partnership model that we used to have. You've got your partners and then you've got your 3,000 people. The 3,000 people are a huge part of the business. In fact, they are the business. Right. We are in professional services. We are a people business. So we are entirely reliant on the talent of the people who are coming in the door every morning and going out the door, be it virtually or in person. So we had to go on a journey where you bring the people, uh, because it's also a surprise for them. And they're like, well, what does this mean for me? We're comfortable with the partnership model. Does this mean. Is it better or worse for me in a personal level? Because, as you know, business becomes very personal very quickly.

Speaker A: And you're different ages. You've picked different ages.

Speaker B: And we. I talk to that as well. And then for the partners, you've got different ages of partners. But then for them it's like, yeah, we've only known this. And effectively, this is completely different. It's completely new. So there's a lot of education went on during 20, uh, 23. Uh, a lot of deep, dark discussions went on. And everyone had the forum to say their piece because.

Speaker A: And sorry, was business as usual going

Speaker B: on business as usual? Yeah, business as usual went on. We actually, interestingly, at the time, we didn't know it, but we had. We had a poor enough end to 20, uh, 23, and then into 24, uh, when we looked to do the private equity deal. So things picked up again. We are, from a firm's perspective, from me being the person who was in charge, it was really important. Communication was 100% clear throughout. And we had to be at various times, we had to be secretive. Not for bad reasoning, just because this is as you'll know the kind of deals like this that come back. There's a lot of sensitive stuff that happens in a very quick period of time. All of our partners will sign NDAs, go through the process, but we wanted to share as much as we could, when we could, both with our partners and more importantly with our people.

Speaker A: Okay, and tell me how you dealt with the audit situation, which has been sort of a central part of the business forever.

Speaker B: Yeah, we, we, uh, we spend a lot of time speaking to the regulators. Ireland, uh, is really well regulated when it comes to audit and I mean that in a proactive manner. Uh, I think it's a really good setup that we have. So we engaged early, we had lots of discussions and we made sure that the model that we're going to come forward with, which is, it's called an alternative practice structure where you have an audit practice and a separate entity to your advisory and tax practice. But we're all linked together. We still, we're still Grant Thornton. We're one family. And, and all that, and all the way that we work with our people and we work for clients, it's united

Speaker A: as Grant Thornton from what's going to.

Speaker B: Nowhere near it. Not, not at all. And that's, that was absolutely a significant part of the mechanic. But you have to be very respectful of regulation and the regulators. So everything we do had to be done in a manner that works. And again, what you'll see is it's kind of like, we call it like the behind the scenes plumbing. Most professional services practices have behind the scenes plumbing that no one ever talks about with entities and different corporates and all that kind of good stuff, be it for tax reason and for regulatory reasons. When we are doing a private equity transaction which was well covered in the media, it becomes more of a focal point.

Speaker A: So if you could describe it fairly clearly now, obviously we've talked about New Mountain and the US now that you are head of emea, Grant Thornton Advisors. Um, in sort of plain English, what's your vision for the company? In a few sentences.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, thanks, Greg. I will do that. So vision is really clear. Right. Professional services is a hard market to differentiate yourself in. We differentiate ourselves by the quality of service, by the specialties we have and by our culture. I believe by doing this, Grant Thornton Advisors is going to differentiate itself. No one else has done what we're trying to do just now. No one else is as united in how they operate, as integrated, and how they think we can serve any client in any market across EMEA and beyond. Uh, within the Grant Thornton Advisors platform in a way that we believe no other competitor can. So that is going to change. We believe the game of professional services, and it's going to differentiate Grant Thornton

Speaker A: M. And do you expect. I'm sure the answer is everything but, um, I'm sure you're expecting to merge with some companies. I'm sure you're expecting to acquire some companies perhaps with very complementary skills to what you already have. And I guess you will be hiring individuals who have skills that you need for the new world that we're entering into. Things are changing.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah, all three, Greg. I mean, we'll start with the people and then we'll work back in reverse. Um, we have to. I think we have a more compelling proposition for our people now than we ever have, and that's a compelling proposition for talent that we want to bring in. We have global mobility in a way that's never been seen before. And you touched on earlier about age and the age demographic. Professional services is actually a very young game because you have a lot of trainees coming through straight out of college, learning their accountancy profession, their tax profession, being a consultant. So our average age of employees actually very low. And when you look at the younger demographic, certainly in the Irish, um, business environment, a lot of our younger demographic want to travel, they want opportunities outside of Ireland. We, ah, are an island at the end of the day, and they want to try and test themselves in different jobs in different markets. I believe we have a game changer there where we can say, right, you want to go to the Middle east, we'll get to the Middle East. You want to go to the U.S. we get you to the U.S. you want to go anywhere in Europe. And we can now activate and make sure that you can get experience of

Speaker A: a different culture and presumably, if you're pitching, say, for business locally, uh, that you can bring in expertise from your

Speaker B: affiliates really quickly, 100%. And that's a huge part of it. Right. So if you're going to pitch in Belgium, for example, we might have the best Irish expert and the best Spanish expert going to meet the Belgian client. And we should win because again, at the end of the day, we can provide a service that the local market cannot.

Speaker A: So the traditional, again, from my, uh, perspective, the traditional kind of model, I'm thinking audit was always the first thing you thought of at accountancy firms. Tax, corporate finance, uh, insolvency, restructuring. That was kind of maybe the four. Maybe I'm missing one there. But what's it going to look like in 10 years time, what new core platforms are there going to be in your business that aren't there now?

Speaker B: So if you talk to anyone like me in my job, we'll all talk about tech and AI because it is a game changer. It is absolutely moving on from anything we've seen before. And we're all investing very heavily, uh, into the space because we think that that's going to be something that grows and grows and grows in the future.

Speaker A: So you're investing as a firm for your own use as well as investing, uh, you know, in expertise to advise clients about both.

Speaker B: Exactly. Both. Both is an important, uh, thing to note there. Right. So we need to get better at how we operate as a business, and we need to make sure that we are as, uh, leading edge AI as we possibly can be, and we're using it in the right manner while still keeping our quality at the forefront. But we also be able to have to advise our clients better as they go through the journeys. And you need different expertise. You need more expertise than we've ever had before. And Greg, when you dig into that a little bit deeper, it means we have to change the skill sets that we've always like. So we've always got the grads in, try and get the best grads, give them the best training, make sure they enjoy it, make sure they learn. But largely you're training accountants that, uh, evolved over the last five years. We're now training accountants and consultants and tax professionals. And. And it's evolving. It was evolving that you've. We almost have in Grant Thornton just now. We probably have m slightly more non accountants than accountants in our 3,000 employees. Um, that is going to evolve even further. We're now into data scientists. We're now into software engineers. We're now into tech specialists. We're into an area that is new. Um, and it's been growing for probably the last 12 months, but it's new. And what does the Grant Thornton of five years time look like? I couldn't tell you.

Speaker A: Uh, but a lot of casual dress.

Speaker B: Like, we started that journey already and I'm probably guilty of helping it, but it's definitely changing.

Speaker A: Again, I'm a total amateur, but in sort of reading up about you, I'm thinking, obviously, AI is a huge thing and there's so many pieces hanging out of that in terms of assurance and all kinds of things, but obviously cyber and cybersecurity is another monstrous issue which is coming. And, uh, ESG is still there, despite the state slowing Down a bit. Regulation, data. Ah. You know, it could be, um, very different looking firm.

Speaker B: Yeah. You sound like you're in one of our management minutes. Because that's exactly what we're talking about. They're all key, topical, uh, issues that we are addressing on a daily basis. The ESG is an interesting one because obviously the whole market was gearing up and then there was a pause with some regulatory changes. Um, I think that will come back one of the big things. And we talk about esg and then you talk about diversity, inclusion, bring that back to our people. We combined with the U.S. firm. The U.S. as you know, has a very outspoken president now. And presidents will come and presidents will go. But one of the big concerns of the Irish employees, and I get it, it was completely right to be concerned, was. Well, we're a firm. We're proud. Proud of our dni. We pride ourselves on it, and we do to this day. And will going forward. What does that mean? It's under pressure in the US and it's getting canceled here, left, right and center. And some of our competitors are making bold statements to say that they're not going to do any NAD and I anymore. It's absolutely core to the Irish firm and always remains so. And, uh, when it comes to esg, we have a really, really strong focus on sustainability, not just in how we serve our clients, but how we run ourselves. And it's going to be core to Grant Thornton Ireland forevermore.

Speaker A: Just a couple of things. Are New Mountain going to sit on your board?

Speaker B: No, no, they sit in the Topco board, of which, uh, I would be the representative of the Irish firm. Um, but it's interesting because, uh, for a lot of your listeners, uh, who deal with private equity, we were terrified. I was terrified. I don't want private equity. They're really smart. They're gonna be all over my business. They're gonna.

Speaker A: Don't say too much. Like, we're not as upset if you say bad things.

Speaker B: Yeah, but. But it's, it's not true. Right. They are really smart. But, like, they, they run our. They let us run our business.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Like, entirely. I have zero decisions that I've made this year. And the Irish business have been interfered with by, uh, private equity. And that's, that's because they're smart. Right. They know that they've got a really good business here, so they're not going to interfere with that and try and break it. Right. So from a, uh, from a business operational perspective, it has been really interesting to work closely We've worked very closely with them on M and A because they've got a huge skill set there. And, and we've done what we're going to hopefully complete somewhere between 18 and 20 deals this year. In the calendar year. There's a lot of deals for a business, any business. It's certainly a lot of deals when you're, and they're, they're big deals, they're not insignificant, significant deals, uh, in a short window. And we would not have been able to do that without the firepower of New Mountain Castle.

Speaker A: Not just the firepower, obviously, it's very important, but the intellectual capital experience that they have of doing that. It's fantastic. Okay, so we now have covered the final kind of topic that we were going to talk about. Just move off, um, the New Mountain, uh, deal for the moment and just talk about a few general things. But when I met you last week, we spoke generally about the whole, um, remote working debate. And there's a bit of a debate going on, as we know. We've had some well known people coming out and saying that they think it's drifted a bit far towards home rather than work. Uh, and there's quite a lot of bite back from that. It's causing a little bit of, uh, unrest a little bit. How are you and Howard, Grant Thornton, on remote working?

Speaker B: Yeah, one word I'll start with is flexible. And that is a word that's really, really important, uh, to how we look at where we work and how we work. We're, uh, largely in the office. The majority of our people have been in the office three, four days a week, uh, maybe one day at home. We don't have a rigorous policy. We haven't gone there. We haven't felt the need. Culturally, everyone does what they need to do to get by. We constantly have to look at that because if we think it's not going the right way, then you might have to intervene and set a policy. We're not there yet. Um, but we're again, we're always looking at, we're happy that most of, uh, uh, again, there's two sides to this. Right? Because the demand and thirst of people in the office. Why you have to, as a, as a business leader, ask myself why? Is it because I just want the kingdom around me and I want everyone to come in, so I have to come in. Is it because it makes me feel better because every other company might be doing that? Or we have to look at what's right for Grant Thornton and, um, what's like Right. For Grant Thornton is definitely flexibility. Now, when we get to certain pockets of people, there might be some people who barely come into the office, and that might be okay. That genuinely, there may be good business reason for that, and it might suit the person and suit the business. But when we get to perhaps our younger cohort, and we're back to the age demographic, those great people in the 20s, I do believe that they should spend the majority of the time in their office. That's where you learn. That's where you have fun. Right. Some of the friends I made in the office at 20, in my 20s, are the people who have stayed with me for the rest of my life. So I could tell you this, Greg. I would not be sitting here today if I had the ability to work from home in my 20s, because one, my talents are not talents that you would see when you're working from home in the spreadsheet. Right. They're different talents. So I think I'd be doing myself a disservice. Two, I'd be so easily distracted. I'd have a match on the telly. I'd be. And this is just personal to me. So I don't think it would have worked for me. Now, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. For some people it does. But from a grand Thornton perspective, I'm happy that the business is doing very well just now. I'm conscious that as a, As a responsible employer, we constantly, constantly have to look out because Dennis, Michael, those big figureheads of Irish business are quite outspoken on the matter. And that gets a lot of debate, both in organizations like us and out with organizations like ours.

Speaker A: This has probably been asked before, but we'll just do it anyway. We'll test you on it.

Speaker B: Like your leadership style.

Speaker A: It's kind of obvious to listen to you, but how would you, um, describe your leadership style?

Speaker B: Yeah, my leadership style. I am a huge believer that, uh, nobody, ah, is good at everything. So my success in my career, I'm 100% certain, has been largely based around the people who I've had around me. I've been surrounded by incredibly talented people and the right people at the right times, definitely, uh, and a lot of luck involved in that. But my. I would be very collaborative in my leadership style. I'd be very open to other views. I think it's a big, big thing to be able to take more inputs to, uh, allow you to make a better decision. I don't know anyone who can't make a better decision with more inputs. There's some inputs you might not agree with, but they're still inputs. So I 100% would like to think. And again, it's easy for me to say what my leadership style. It's more interesting for others who work with me to say what it is. But, um, I'm hugely driven. I, um, would be obsessive about Grant Thornton. Again, a big believer that you don't get in business and professional services particularly, you don't get exceptional reward without exceptional effort. I m work really hard. Work ethic is really important to me. Um, I'd be seven days a week. If you're going to get to a level within any business, I don't think you get. You get that with just a normal level of effort. So I would be committed to what I do. I'd expect that of others around me. Um, but I'd like to think I listen and I would always try and surround myself with people who I think are brilliant.

Speaker A: Well, I couldn't say I know you well. I've met you twice, but in my two meetings with you, you're an energy giver. You're certainly a creator of energy. Thank you. Which is really, um, really important. Uh, there's one last thing I was going to ask here and probably should have put it in the AI thing. I know you use Copilot, so this is all a bit random here now, but we're nearing the end. Copilot. How's that working for you guys?

Speaker B: Yeah, really good. So we, as part of our investment, it's Microsoft. Sorry, apologies. Yeah. As part of our investment, we have made sure that every single employee has access to Copilot, proper access to Copilot, and we want it to be a part of it, not just for doing a Google search instead of Google. We want it to be ingrained and how they do their job every day. And it's not just, uh, one tool. ChatGPT, Copilot. That's not going to get that done. We need to, for our audit firm, for our tax firm, for our advisory firm, we need to give tools that are going to make our jobs easier, more efficient, more interesting. We're back to the people dynamic. And again, we need to make sure that everyone is enjoying their job, they're learning on their job and they're serving the clients well. Right. So to do that, they have to have the best tools.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's a competitive environment. Professional services is a really competitive space. So if Grant Thornton is lagging behind there, someone can walk out that door and go to a competitor and not come back. We can't allow that to happen. So the learning and development and to be honest, it's going to be more of a focus now. I think with everything that's happened in the last 12 months, we probably missed a beat on that a little bit. We need to more in the focus of learning and development, particularly in the space of AI, so we can try and create a generation of people who are really fluent. And everything to do with AI, not just Copilot, but the other tools that we use within the business.

Speaker A: It's a pretty good, um, spot in which to end. This has been fascinating and really enjoy the conversation. And thanks a lot for coming.

Speaker B: Thanks very much for that. Thank you.