Joel Lawton: Finding Purpose by Stepping Away from Your Business

Speaker A: So, hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Rebel Work Podcast. On today's episode, I am joined by Joel Lawton, who is a friend of mine, business, uh, consultant of mine, coach of mine, Joel, there's like, how many words shall I throw, uh, at how we know each other? Um, Joel has got a very interesting steer on how we can reimagine work, how we can do work that makes us feel like we're in flow, that we're connected, that we're in our bodies, in our minds. And I wanted to bring him onto the show because I think, Joel, your perspective on work is very much aligned with mine and the work and the projects that you have. And the focus of your work, I think, is very unique and would love to unpack, um, it with you today. Obviously, I know all the answers, right, what we're going to explore today, but I would love to give you a platform for you to share the work that you do around rethinking work. And I think one of my most favorite posts that you put on LinkedIn was around fuck the white box, as in, let's get out the office space and let's be more connected, not just to ourselves, but to each other and to nature. And I think in the time that I've known you, you've really embodied that and brought that to life with some of the projects that you're working on now. So. So, Joel, do you want to give a bit of an overview of the. The work that you do and, uh, we'll kickstart, I think, maybe with in your corner, which is kind of the primary focus, I think, of this conversation, um, which is your business consultancy, but also getting people out of the white box so we can do our best work. So over to you.

Speaker B: Thanks. So I'd rather you give more detail because, you know, explaining what you do sometimes can feel quite tricky. Yeah, I think, you know, primarily I work with founders and leaders who are feeling isolated, stuck in their own business, maybe procrastinating, um, carrying a lot of responsibility or weight on their shoulders, um, and trying to move them from there to kind of a space where they're feeling more connected, supported, working on their business, um, in action, actually taking action and moving forward. And then all that kind of brings a bit of lightness, uh, and a bit of freedom to, and creativity to where they're doing it. Um, and I think I do that through two ways at the moment, and I've got many more ideas on how to do it, but I think there's the one on One coaching, which you mentioned and alluded to earlier, where I'm really kind of coaching the human and consulting on the business at the same time and helping them um, set their business up. So understand the needs first beyond the traditional metrics of a business, beyond just finance financial success, work out what their needs are, uh, and that's on a longer term basis and on a day to day basis and trying to kind of make sure that they're met and they're structuring their business in the right way. So um, it's really about placing the human at the center of work. And that's what I try and do with the coaching. And then as you know, because you've um, well you've been coaching with me and you've also been to the away days, you've done all of it. That kind of. I started doing that in nature and away from people's traditional spaces because I felt that jumping into someone's office in between two of their meetings or after a phone call they just had and then into one of their meeting rooms to try and help them and support them, didn't feel like there was much creativity going on there or much inspiration or even m much challenge, um, for them or for me. So taking them out into nature, moving the body, going for a walk, landing in a space, doing some light breath work, that felt really, really powerful. And doing that one on one with people was great, but feeling like actually doing this with a group of people would be fantastic. And that led me to create your away day. So it's a day for founders and leaders to come together and do that too and be in community, um, um, through those same experiences. And we try and build a day that puts the human first in a day's work. You'll have less time to work about four or five hours, but those hours will be super impactful. And I think the real kicker is at the end of the day of work you should feel really energized, really motivated. Um, and actually I think, you know, you've alluded to it, um, you know that work can be. Feel like it's a bit broken at the moment and that people are seen for their productivity only and not seen as human beings. And actually at the end of kind of coming on your away day, not only have you done great stuff for your business, you actually feel like you can just head off into the world and carry on as normal rather than fixing yourself or self medicating or going crashing on a sofa or having to go to the pub to kind of you know, mask any feelings about what you've just done or um, even the wellness industry, which I love to pieces and I am cold water dipper love uh, saunas. But that's grown hugely and it's because it's kind of like a, feels like it's a sticking blaster for the problem rather than trying to get to the root cause of it. And that's what I think I'm trying to solve. By helping founders build their business in a way that supports them or creating experiences where founders can come and be in community and get work done in a way that supports them. Mhm.

Speaker A: I think there's so much as well I know that your work is primarily focused on founders, business owners, but there's so much the corporate world can learn from this. And being in the space that I'm in, which is primarily working with corporates, I'm not working with small, small businesses. I'm not working with startups, I'm not working one on one. I'm working with the bigger kind of large SMEs and then going into much bigger organizations. And this feels like, wow, can you imagine how m. Differently organizations would be operating culturally if they had access to some of the things that you're doing with the, with your business founders? I think it's just magical and I think um, having experienced uh, kind of days coaching review, being out in the countryside where for everyone listening, um, Joel's experience kind of starts with a long walk, right. And you're like, it's coaching, right. And we're talking but it doesn't feel, it doesn't feel like a formal coaching session when you're kind of sat down with a clipboard and you're taking notes, you're just, you're listening. Right. And um, being part of whatever story is I'm telling you and I think that's, it's really great that you're eliciting your story out in nature and you've got a real skill with that to then forcing me because you know, I don't like this to actually, to actually do something with that story and to kind uh, of set some direction and some action, which is obviously why I was working with you in the first place. But it's all happening in an environment where you're in, you're surrounded by fresh flowers and bees and birds and I mean quite often sheep are involved.

Speaker B: Especially at this time of year.

Speaker A: Yeah, the sheep and the lambs are there. You know, there's, there's all sorts of wildlife around and Then we go and have this incredible, nutritious, um, lunch prepared by, um, Henry and Libby, who specialize in local food, good food, organic food, um, and really prepared for the work that we're doing. Right. It's brain fu. Like food. So you've created what I think is like a, A masterpiece of how I think we can work in order to really uncover what's underneath us, why we do what we do, who are we, and what we bring into the world. And then, as you say, the away days is then that expanded. It's much bigger because then you've got connection with others who are also going through that same process. My area of intrigue, which, again, I know the answer to this, but I want everyone else to hear. This is about your story in terms of how you found this way of working. Because I. Because I'm pretty sure you did the white box thing before, right, like most of us have done. So, so how. How did you go? Do you know what? This isn't working. The way we're working isn't right. I need to fix it in some way. I need to provide a solution in some way. What is your story to finding that?

Speaker B: Uh, how long do you say we've got for this?

Speaker A: We've got as long as you like.

Speaker B: No, I think so. I mean, my background is, um, I ran my own business for 13 years. Um, traditionally successful, uh, property services company up in London with my best mate Will, and had a lot of fun doing it. It was really great and it's given me a lot in life, um, but didn't come without its challenges. Um, and as we grew, first of all, it's just me and Will flying by the seat of our pants, going for it, um, and then building structure, um, and making sure that we are, um, supporting our team and that, um, we're doing everything correctly. And suddenly we're kind of these managers of this, this big business turning over 3 million. It's got 100 people in it. And, um, I found myself towards the end, um, only connected to the numbers in the business. And, um, if they weren't doing very well, then that would impact me. Um, and I think that it was probably around 2020. A lot of things happened in 2020 or big, big shifts for a lot of people. Um, it was when I started to kind of ask myself, you know, what, what are my own needs? I kind of followed the path that everybody, well, the society maybe tells you you should follow. So, gone to school, done my levels, got my degree. I'd gone and worked for A company I worked for Decathlon, um, the French sports brand for eight years, which was fantastic and actually gave me a huge grounding in business. And you have a profit and loss account as soon as you're a department manager there. So you're learning. It's like a small, you know, like a small entrepreneur. They treat you as a business owner. So that gave me a huge amount of, um, knowledge that enabled me to grow a business, actually. So, um, so I've done all these things and then not everybody goes and does it, but I've done something I really want to do is run my own business. And it was really, really great for, for many reasons. Um, but at no point had I stopped kind of ever reflect on what was important to me. Just going with the flow. Um, that's probably a midlife thing, you know, an experience thing. Once, um, I started thinking business, what is important to me, um, what do I need as a human being? And then, um, how can I actually turn the business that I've got to support that? I think that was the first step for me. And so how do I redesign what I've created here? I've worked super hard for, in a hustling sense. You know, we worked really, really hard. Um, and that's okay. There were less responsibilities then. Didn't have kids, wasn't married, et cetera. Um, but then life had changed and shifted and um, so one of the big shifts for me was actually redesigning the business, um, in the last five years that I was there to allow me to be more present at home for my kids particularly. There were six and three at the time, I think, if my maths is correct. And um, so I decided that actually I could take less money and be at home more, uh, first of all physically and then actually learn to be there mentally. And I think so first of all it's right physically present. And then how do I learn to not be stuck in my head, not be a grumpy dad, not be slightly, uh, snappy or, um, not able to hold the emotions of my kids. And that's where the kind of the second part, the self inquiry came. So starting to unlearn lots of things that I learned. Pathways, stories about myself, challenging my internal narrative. I think letting go of judgment, uh, or fear of judgment of others. Um, so first of all, that's kind of like, yeah, that is a lot. There's a lot there. But there was the physical part of how do you design a business in a business sense to support that? Uh, and then how do you Learn the human part to actually, um, take advantage of this kind of space that you're creating. Um, this is all with reflection, on reflection. I couldn't have told you this story when it was happening. Right when it was happening. I was just kind of like, I need to make this change. This feels better. And starting to trust my body and my instincts and starting to maybe question why we're doing certain things, or was it me or society that was saying I should work this way, or, you know, I came to leave my business. I can't remember your question now, but I came to leave my business, um, two and a half years ago now. Um, and it felt. Full body. Yes. You know, my business partner, Will, was going to stay around the business. I was going to leave.

Speaker A: We.

Speaker B: We kept our friendship at the core of it, and we navigated that, that, that part of it. Um, and I remember we went for a pub lunch to kind of just finalize what the deal would look like in terms of money. And for me, it was just about having time because I had no plan. And we both, uh, had what we wanted out of this. Um, and I went home on the Friday. I thought, wow, how mature we are. You know, we've kept our friendship. We both feel like we've. We've got what we. We need. And I don't think I slept for like, 48 hours because my brain was just saying, what the are you doing? Can I swear on this one?

Speaker A: You can.

Speaker B: Of course you can.

Speaker A: I think I've sworn three times already,

Speaker B: you know, because I. I was just, you know, you had something that a lot of people would want, a successful business. Why are you walking away from it? You have a mortgage, you have a young family. Why would you risk that? Um, and that's that. But. So it's like. But this. But my whole body was saying, yes, there's something else. Yes, there's. There's something else for you to do. This is the. The closing of a chapter. You've. You've learned so much from it. And it's had this real battle. And I still do it today. Still. Sometimes my brain will, like, try and say, oh, you know, imagine if you'd stayed. Um, you know, it just is a. It's a real challenge for me. But that. Yeah. So I. I know your question was about how I discovered the need to work differently. I think it's like looking back at my journey, it's because I've been through that journey. People often asked me how, you know, why, you know, what your qualifications to coach or what your qualifications. It's like, but I've done it. I've walked a walk now. I've, I've done a successful business. I've done, I've done the change. And I think something that really came to me, I realized when, when, when I was working out my needs, my values, I'm the only person that can change this. I can sit here and moan about it. I can moan, you know, that the way society is means I can't change it. Or I can get off my ass and do, uh, it, or I can do this uncomfortable thing and do it. Um, so, yeah, I think that's why I do the work I do is because I've been on that journey and I realized there's a different way of doing it that leads us into, Leads, uh, me into developing and creating different environments for people to work and to challenge themselves to think differently and be different. And although those days sound lovely out, uh, in nature, which they are, they're deeply uncomfortable for some people because it is slowing down. It is reflecting, is challenging the narrative that we should be hustle, hustle, hustle. That's the only way to build a business, the only way to do, um, entrepreneurship, etc, and you see a lot of that on social media and other people saying that. And I don't deny that hard work is important or with intention at the right times. And there are times to actually kind of pause and put yourself first as well.

Speaker A: M. I think I definitely resonate with those people that struggle with the pausing because. Joel, do you remember when we met at the Week of Nothing retreat run by our great friends Lawrence and Carlos at the Happy Startup School? And I was one of those entrepreneurs that was like, speed, drive, success. Keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going. Don't take your foot off the pedal. And we took five days out to go and sit in Somerset in this gorgeous country house with all to do. I was like, why have I paid all this money and traveled this journey to sit and do nothing? Obviously the name of the retreat gave it away. Yeah, it was the week of Nothing. I don't know what I thought I

Speaker B: was gonna get, but I think you're pretty smart cookie. Safe.

Speaker A: But I know, right? I know, right? And, um, and I remember downloading it with you like several weeks after that. About. It really messed me up that, that week messed me up because I didn't feel like I was being productive. I felt like I was supposed to come away having taken away like some kind of epiphany moment of, oh, now I'm gonna be a better entrepreneur. And actually, I spent the week feeling quite agitated that I wasn't pushing something. And it was only subsequently, through you and I talking more about those experiences that I was like, oh, this is actually how it's done. This is how it's done. It's the pauses, it's the taking the time out. It's the connection which I want to come on to in a minute with you around that. Whether that's connection to nature, connection to the land that the food is grown on that you're eating into your body, um, connection to perhaps thoughts and feelings that you've tried to push aside, and now they. They want to be heard. Um, and it took me. It took me quite some time, I think, to come back from that retreat. It wasn't an easy landing, despite the fact we did nothing. And so I think a lot of people in the spaces that we are in can feel quite uncomfortable about taking a day out of work to go be in the countryside to meet new people to. And you know this because I've been to, what, 10 of your away days?

Speaker B: I've done 12, and I think you have missed two of them.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know.

Speaker B: Right, Exactly.

Speaker A: I know. I'm, um, gutted I've missed two because I was doing so well. But, yeah, I've been to 10 out of 12, and I always love seeing new people experiencing it for the first time because they always, like. I wasn't sure what to expect. Um, I didn't know whether I should bring this or I should. Whether I can take phone calls. Can I jump on a call here? Am, um, I supposed to be strategizing something or. Coming up, the biggest, the big and the. The. I think the best thing about what you do is. Is just, like, you sharp with what you've got. M. However you show up on that day is how you show up on that day. And I'm. I'm speaking from experience here, because my most productive day of them all was that day when I was having a complete meltdown. You came and found me in the rain, and he was like, soph, go sit and watch Netflix. Which is what I did. Right. And that was really productive for me, because what happened for me in the afternoon was after I had had that kind of emotional meltdown, I'd sat and watched Emily in Paris on Netflix for a bit. I then was like, right, that's over now. I've cleared that, uh, whatever that thing was. It's gone now. I can start focusing on this. And I ended up turning out quite some amazing work that day. But it's the invitation, right, to just be fully present with yourself and who you are and what you are, I think that comes on to my curiosity. Review around connection. Connection feels like it's a really important. I know you, right? So this is not, this is not news for me, but other people listening to this. Um, I feel like connections are really important, Fred, for not just the work that you do with, um, in your corner, the business consultancy side of things and the. Your away days, but also with the uh, men's cold water group that you run, Icebreakers. It's all about having that sense of connection. And I'm curious to understand. I know, I think, I know. I know the answer to this. Right?

Speaker B: But I want everyone else, you know all the answers.

Speaker A: I do know. I could, I could just interview you

Speaker B: as why am I, why am I even here?

Speaker A: I know, right? I know, I'm sorry. But you never know. You may have a difference to what I think, but connection seems to be at the absolute core of everything that you are, everything that you do, your values. There's a real strong theme of connection. Where did that come from? And why do you feel that it's so important for us to have this sense of connection in the work that we do?

Speaker B: Where did that come from? That's a great question. Um, can I just go back to the doing nothing for one second and I'm going to come back to this question?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So we, we did that week of nothing. When I first stepped back from my business to have more time at home, I also had time for myself. I started to create. So I obviously was available to do more school runs and, and be more present with the kids. And um, that was brilliant. And. But I had time for me all of a sudden this time for me that I didn't really know what to do with. Um, and also I had people ask me what I was doing with that time. So what, what are you doing with that for? You know, because I did it slowly over time. It wasn't just a cut back kind of the day. He's got less. So what are you doing with that day, a week to yourself? And I really struggle, um, to answer that because they wanted a, they wanted the societal answer of something productive. Right. So you. Yeah, I'm building, uh, I'm learning something new or I'm, I'm building another business on the side or I'm. Whatever it might be. Um, and actually the freedom came from saying, uh, nothing, not actually saying the word nothing. And I know that nothing is. Is much more than that because it's allowing space and time for things to percolate subconsciously and um, for your nervous system to relax and all of those things. So nothing is doing something right. You know, it can be different for other people. But yeah. So just going back to that nothing, that nothingness or that word. Um, yeah. And I really started to claim it or take ownership of. Yeah. Nothing and whatever. Their reaction was whatever. But maybe they actually welcomed that maybe it was me that was societally kind of programmed to feel like I had to give an answer of productivity. Um, but connection. Yeah, I think probably we can start off with connection to myself. So I think, I think that's what we all. The starting point needs to be there for most of us. Um, and I'll bring it back into the work and, and the men's work as well. But I think. Okay, so I think, um, entrepreneurs or business owners are often giving so much and that can be to their clients, trying to serve their family by, you know, providing for them. Um, it can be to their team, if they've got a team. And it's all about being in service of. For others and getting stuff done. Um, and there's, you know, with a great idea and a passion that they have as well. So they're kind of constantly on the go. And I think that for a long time that was my. How I operated. Giving service, sacrificing myself for others, feeling like that was my role. As I say, I think that can. Quite a lot of men can feel like that. The way that the patriarchal system works and tells us that that's how we should. What we should be doing for our family and our. And our friends. You can look at love languages as well and now know about those and learn about those, you know, and mine is in service of, um, that's where I give love and that's where I feel loved most. If people, um, look after me in that way. But I think that the first step to uh, anything here in terms of connection has to be to yourself. And often that means taking yourself off and doing something for you. And that can feel really deeply uncomfortable. And that. And I can talk about, you know, you're away. They can be uncomfortable from a work point of view, to take time away to do a different type of work in a different environment. That isn't just the, well, if I do that, it's productive. It might make money type work. Um, for me, um, I found it really difficult. So the week Of Nothing was a great example of that. The first retreat I went on five years ago, um, I've just come off one last week this weekend I go once a week. Once a week, that'd be great. Yeah, yeah, once a year minimum to take time for myself knowing. And the struggle for me was I felt guilty taking time for me, guilty spending money on me. It's all in my own head, right? Nobody else is telling me this, or it's all been built from how society just told me I should, uh, should be in the world. Um, so the Week of Nothing. I was actually talking to Sarah on the Week of Nothing about how I felt when we were walking, um, over to the lake and saying I felt guilty for being here, guilty for spending money, guilty for not being at home, looking out on my family. Um, and I worked that through over time. It didn't happen just on, just there and then. But we were talking about it. And, um, then even if I kind of let go the guilt, um, I would feel that pressure to come back fixed. And I use those words with her air quotes, and I use their words all from my own brain. No one has told me to come back fixed. No one has told me to come back less grumpy at home or more present or no one. You know, obviously that's hopefully the impact, but that's all me putting this pressure on. So suddenly I'm there, I'm able to go to the thing. I've got past the guilt initially, and now I'm thinking, God, I'm not enjoying this because I can't feel the pressure to be a new human being and not to have the problems I had when I went away. And the only comes back to connection to self, the freedom that came from actually saying, you can come back exactly the same to myself. You just can come back the same. It doesn't matter. And suddenly I, uh, would then felt the advantages of looking after myself or doing things differently or taking space or a pause or listening to my body or getting in cold water, whatever it was. And suddenly I'm connected to myself a lot more. Suddenly I'm in tune with myself and what's around me. And that enabled me to be the best in all my roles in life, you know, better, you know, I could. And also connected to any other human beings that were there in that environment or when I got back. So I think it starts off with connection to self and understanding yourself. And that can be deeply uncomfortable work in many ways. And I'm still doing it. And, you know, I'm still doing it and we talk about it and you support me in many days through it. Um, but that's super, super important. And that again, if you go to the men's work men. So for those who don't know about Icebreakers, it's a cold water dipping group in Brighton, originated in Bath by some friends of mine. Um, I've also got a Bristol one in London and more coming. And we gather every Sunday at 8 o' clock and we get in the sea together. And um, it is one hour in a week where men can just take time for themselves. They don't have to be anything to anybody. There's no labels, um, there's no uh, hierarchy and we just take the time to. You don't even have to connect with others. If you just want to come down and be silent, you can find that space to do something difficult together. Get in the water, we have a ritual, um, have a hug and cup of tea and a chat if you need it. Um, and that's about connecting with others there. And you know, the endorphins you get from getting in the water, the endorphins you get from human connections set you up for a great start of the Sunday and hopefully a great start the rest of the week. And it's the same on the away day. You know, the first hour of every away, hour and a half, probably because you've got the tea and I mean tea and coffee at the beginning. It's all just about landing in the space, largely through talking to those around you and largely through sharing where you're at and what's. What's going on with you. Um, and kind of, yeah, releasing that. So yeah, I think it's super, super important. Mhm.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think that just conveys connection. Seems to be like the core thread, Joel, of all the work that you do. Whether it's disconnecting from the numbers on the spreadsheet and connecting inward to yourself or whether that is the. They're making these little micro weavings of there's a person over there and I can connect with them or I can talk to those people. One of the things that you said, I uh, really love that you said this, especially about the week of Nothing. The retreat where we met each other was around this kind of feeling like you have to come back fixed. And I think there is this inclination that when you take time out, you go to a retreat or even when you go to one of your away days. Right. I often think this. Even now I'm training my brain not to now, because I've done 10. Right. So it's becoming more familiar to me. But feeling like there has to be some kind of roi.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: To it. Like if I'm gonna spend X amount of money to go on. I mean, the Week of Nothing was not a very. It wasn't a cheap retreat at all by any stretch, was it? It was investment. What's going to be my return on, um, that. And it's a similar thing when we go to the away day and it's like, okay, what's going to be my return investment for being here today? What. What am I going to get from it? What am I going to have produced? What's going to be something tangible? And I think the beauty in what you're saying here is it doesn't have to be tangible, it doesn't have to be measurable. It could be a feeling or not. You can turn up an away day feeling the exact same way as when you leave. You haven't got to have done this massive transformation on yourself because you might decide in that space, like I did with the whole Netflix and going out for Walk in the Rain, to just honor it.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's about what's. What's needed, isn't it? Yeah. At the moment, you know, we've done. We've done work with Charlie. Yeah. About what? Asking yourself what's needed. But I think you're right. The away day can be anything to anybody. And I always say that. And it's like you do you. I will create and cultivate the environment. It will be carefully crafted to allow the best work to happen. But some people come and do do some real serious productive work. Like, uh, people have come and gone through due diligence for selling a business and gone. I just haven't had time to do this. I'm going to sit here in a lovely space knowing that I've got breaks with people to chat to, but then get through this thing that's been on my, you know, like, eat the frog, do the big horrible thing that I can't get. And that's super great. Right. That's productive. And that's worked really well. And then we have one guy who had a snooze in the afternoon because that's what he needed. We have other people. I think one of the last ones, um, that we did, that you were at, um, when people arrived and we sat around the fire at the beginning and the bird song came and then we did. You know, we always do different exercises to connect and share and um, you know, and can hear people that have arrived with a plan. Right. I've taken this time because that's what I say the day you promise yourself that you never take. So it's kind of like getting the work done that maybe been put enough. And that is true too. But you can see people arrive at the plan and then sometimes they're almost mentally folding up the plan as they're there, putting it away in their pocket and saying, actually I'm going to be just expansive and have some lovely chats today and then do whatever the work comes from those chats or so it really depends on the person. But I think, yeah, it really is that I've said it already is. You know, it can be uncomfortable to be there because that's your pausing and stopping. So you come with a, a shield of protection of a productive list of things to do. So you. Okay, I'm going to come into this great environment, but I'll get my return on investment and I'll make sure I make the most of it. And that's all valid. If that's what you want to do, totally cool. But I think often when you get there, everything slows down. You know, we breathe and we land, we connect and suddenly actually out of you comes what you need, what, what you need to get done.

Speaker A: M. Yeah. I mean there's been many away day where I've just asked around all day.

Speaker B: That's normally when Becky's there.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: When a couple of uh, our. A couple of our friends in our business community are there and it's like, okay, it's party time, it's not work time. But that's much needed connection. Right. For me. And I have those moments where I can be incredibly productive, have those moments where actually just on a. Where I'm at emotionally and sometimes I do have to just kind of check out from work and not do anything work related or there are the times when I just sit and talk to people and make new connections. And from that I've actually had three new business connections that I've made and actually have worked on one, one project already with someone that I've met. So it's, it's also. This connection piece extends into this awful word networking. But that is what, that's also what's being created here. You're pausing, you're stopping, you're feeling in. But you're also able to access networks of people that you didn't, you didn't have access to before, which I think is a real Real beauty to what you do.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I play around with language around it all the time. And yeah, I think networking has a, has a certain um, connotation to it, which I probably wouldn't use that. But you are building a network because you're connecting with human beings. You know, that's what it is. And you know, I think it's also, you know, it's genuine co working or the future of co working as often as he's called it. Because I love co working spaces. I'm in one now and there are community elements to it. But actually you're co working throughout the day sharing, asking each other at the beginning, you might be sharing what your intention is or the support you might need. So suddenly someone can. And I think people from different industries are coming with different experience and all sorts. So there's so much going on in there. Actually the work that's getting done is super powerful because it's not showing your own. But again, as I think we, uh. The day is the, the space is created. So if you need to go away, there are spaces that quiet for quiet work. If you want to be on a table chatting to people and sharing ideas, there are those tables too. You know, I do coaching on the day as well, so there's support there. So it really is a mix of absolutely everything. But the important bit is it's about putting the human first in a day's work and knowing that, that I really believe that that enables the work that's to happen. That is a powerful thing. Mhm.

Speaker A: So just a couple of things for my listeners. Um, Joel, you've name dropped quite a few people. Sarah, Charlie. Sorry, yeah, they will part, they're all part of a uh, I guess a wider community of people that I think talking about in inverted commas, this network. I think the better word that you use is community and a movement. And so they are, they are part of this as people that are enjoying this space or Sarah and Charlie's perspective, people that been part of the journey to creating this in some way. Um, with AIs obviously being there as part of the away day. He's a, he's a regular and a supporter and a helper. Right?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker A: But I, I wanted to touch on the shift of the. I think I said it before like I hate the word network and it feels, it feels like something technological, a network rather than something that's more human. And I think in a, in a world that's becoming more and more automated. Automated or automated. And um, artificial intelligence is on the rise. I think we need to definitely make sure we are harnessing the humanness of who we are. And therefore, the words that you're using there, rather than network, is around community. And specifically the word you use is movement, like creating a movement. And I wondered if you wanted to talk a little bit more to that, like, why. Why is this sense of creating a movement important to you as part of us creating this environment for us to do our best work?

Speaker B: Movement is about a shared value or a shared vision. Um, and when you're doing something that can feel counterintuitive. Counterintuitive, as I've alluded to several times in different parts of my journey and how I see this way of working, you know, it's. It's going against what you maybe feel like you should be doing in terms of getting your eight hours in front of a computer or being that productive person. Knowing there are others doing it, knowing there are others that believe in this way of doing is super empowering and super m. Energizing, really. So it's more of a movement to change, to try and change people's perspectives. And when you've got people who are maybe already on the. I was thinking about this earlier. Was somebody about, um, you already on. There are people who are already in that way of thinking, you know, yourself, Lawrence. People who already committed to kind of putting themselves first, probably outside of work and inside of work, um, and have done self inquiry and others who are just intrigued or interested in the fact that they don't want to burn out or they feel overwhelmed or so they're feeling the pain point. Actually knowing that there's a group of people they can go do it with rather than relying on themselves to solve everything, is really, really important. And that's why I think. Yeah. That building a movement or collective is another word I sometimes use. There is one network that's great, the Mycelium Network. So we can. We can. We can tap in. We can tap into that instead. We can tap into the fungi and the mushrooms, and we can be that. Ah. Um.

Speaker A: But yes, the what network?

Speaker B: The Mycelium network.

Speaker A: Oh, Mycelium. I didn't hear. I didn't hear what you said.

Speaker B: Uh, okay.

Speaker A: Somewhere bizarre, when you started talking about mushrooms, I was like, all right, here we go, Joel. Go on then.

Speaker B: Yeah, that doesn't happen on these particular white days. But no, you know, never say never. Um, but yeah, I think. And I think that's really important. So as I said, people don't find it easy to stop. People don't find it easy to put themselves first. People don't find it easy to, um, try different things or different ways of working and trust in that. So by creating a group of people that are already doing it, by creating events such as your way day, which is the first of the spaces I'm creating and I've got ideas to build more, then there feels a sense of belonging and connection and that I'm not the only person trying to do it differently.

Speaker A: I, I love that there's kind of this community of like minded people coming together, uh, this movement of like minded people coming together. And we didn't even know we had that, that like mindedness in common. So it does start, it does feel like there is an emergence of something new. I think people feel very broken at work. People are like looking for a different way of working. And then you're in this environment where, well, there's roughly, I don't know, probably about 10 people on an average away day.

Speaker B: Yeah. Between 10 and 15. Anywhere between, yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so there's 10 of you that are like, oh, we're all having the same experience, but we're having a different experience. Which is what I think is the beauty of having this movement. Because then we have that experience, we go away, we talk about it. I've had such profound experiences on the 10 that I've been on that I'm like, Joe, you need to come on the podcast and talk about this. Because this, you know, it's just, it's so impactful for people and it's, it's wonderful at the end of the day when you hear people, when you hear how they've started and they're like, okay, I've come here, I've got these three things I want to do. What should I do? And I think, in fact one of our, um, our joint connections was even like, asked us all to vote on which ones he thinks he should do. Right. So now we're actively involved in like, I need to do three things, I can't do all three. What do you reckon I should do? And we were giving advice and support and that's the one you lit up when you said that that's what you should do in this space. And then you download as the closing ritual at the end and you go back to what was the intention that I set myself? And you, you know, you're great with this because there's no pressure on that. And it could just be a word, it could just be a feeling. It doesn't have to be a, uh, you know, a smart go of any kind. And you're like, oh, you said you was gonna plan your podcast and you was gonna set up some interviews and send five emails, but what you've actually done is you've written a story for children's book. What. Where did that come like? And that's, that's the beauty of this, is that you think you're going there with one thing, but you have this, this, this, you know, this other, other experience, and then you're seeing everyone else doing that too. And then you just feel like, uh, oh, this really is a movement because we're all going away sharing those stories. This is what I did at the away day. I'm going again because I want to do this, I want to do that, I want to experience that. And I feel like it's spreading like osmosis, because it started off quite small, didn't it? It started for a small experiment, and now, and now there's quite, quite a lot of people that now are involved in this and are part of the movement, which I think is. Hopefully we'll start to spread the message around how we need to work differently.

Speaker B: Yeah, hopefully. And I think that there's a, an opportunity for this to move beyond just founders, you know, that, you know, as you said, and the work you do is with teams and with bigger kind of corporate, uh, institutions and, um, it feels like it's needed. And, you know, I don't need to convince you that workplace culture is broken. It needs fixing. You know, people are signed off, you know, with anxiety or, uh, overload or burnout or, you know, mental well being isn't great. And I think that there are things in the, in the workplace which are great, that support that. But often it can feel like a, uh, um, as I said earlier, like a plaster trying to fix something that we're not looking at. The root cause, root cause is that, is that we're. The way we're working. We're not putting the human first. So, um, it feels like, although I'm starting one space, that there is potential for this to, to be spread out into teams and into bigger environments. And let's just be clear, work gets done on these days. It's not a retreat, which are also great. They're over there and they're retreats to relax. Until you do that, the work happens. So I think it's really, really important for everybody. I think we've been reflecting on blended working, which is really amazing for many people. And we had it at my company before I left and people working two days or three days from home and two or three days in the office. M But even then I think that you're still isolated and you're not connected and you're still trying to be productive. You might have three days at home and be all on the calls and I'm in your office or your kitchen, um, but you haven't actually seen anybody or you haven't actually um, done any movement or paused at any point. You just come out, you just got come out of work, straight into family life. There's no break, there's no putting yourself first. And then when you go into the office, it's back to back meetings with the people that you need to see face to face. But you miss the nuances of human connection and time and space. And I don't want to call it the water cooler chat because that sounds like really cheesy but those moments of like connection are having lunch together or uh, landing. We kind of, we're missing those. Even in lovely co working spaces, people come in and plug in and they're siloed. So I think that there's a bigger thing here that I'm trying to change. You know, that's why the word movement feels prudent in terms of using it. But it's like there's a bigger thing here that we're trying to change which is, yeah, how do we look after the human to allow the work to happen? How do we tap into our being to allow the doing to happen? We talk about that quite a lot, don't we? Rather than doing, if we, if we're just focusing on the doing, we're often coming from fear or anxiety or a position of scarcity, um, or survival mode. And that's fine when it's needed, but you can't do that all the time. And actually tapping into kind of our being and being present and being connected and thinking about the environment we work in, thinking about um, our mind and our mental state or our uh, somatic state, how we're feeling in our body. Those things are looked after and the human is in the best possible. It's like high performance always feels like it's like stressed and fast. It's actually that high performance can be like calm and peaceful now in the work to then flow out. So yeah, I really, really do believe in it.

Speaker A: Oh, you're so speaking my language there around the high performance piece and allowing the work to just flow and come to you. Because some of the work that I do is around powering up for Work, right? How do you, how do you prepare yourself for work? And so when I hear organizations talking about performance management, Performance management is not KPIs, OKRs, the appraisal process, um, putting your high pots, your high potential people in the top bracket and putting them on some kind of accelerated leadership development program. And then your low performers are in like, in supervision. All that traditional hr. That's not performance management. What is performance management is, have you had enough sleep? What are you drinking? What are you putting in your body? How have you moved today? Like, what are you doing with your happy hormones, your dopamine, your serotonin, your oxytocin, the endorphins, Right. So that's actually, they're your performance chemicals. OKRs and KPIs aren't going to give you anything on that front, right? So it's about how do you feel your body, how do you feel your mind? In order for you to step into a space where it should even be called performance, right? It should be flow, if you just step into your flow. Um, and I think, I think because we keep using the word performance, performance is an actual. So we kind of have to act into those spaces rather than being in those spaces. And I know that word is a really critical word for you, right? To be in your being rather than kind of feeling like you have to do something else or become something else, is actually centering in on the core person. And I really, I really see that coming alive in the work that you do. So for everyone listening, Joel, I think there's so many different elements and facets to this, but I think there are kind of three key components of what the work that you do. Whether it's the uh, one to one business consultancy having the one to one away day review where it's just, you know, what we've done before, just you and I out in nature, in the barn, eating good food, copious amounts of big sheets of paper and, you know, mirror boards and all sorts of stuff. Um, whether it's doing that, whether it's actually hosting the more community based, um, away day there, there's three key elements that you've deliberately designed into this. And so for anyone listening to this, it's like, okay, well, sounds like there's, there's so many things happening here. Give us the, uh, give us the lowdown on what these three kind of core constructs that must exist for you in order to create these away days and these experiences.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think I probably touched on them or you mentioned them throughout some of this conversation, but the first one is the environment. Now I love the environment being somewhere different or inspiring, particularly in nature or at least connected to nature. Um, I think really when you think about the environment, you're setting an intention for how you want to feel during your work. Um, it might be inspiring, it might be challenging to be in a new environment. It might be expansive. But I think the environment's super important for me when I'm cultivating something for those I want to work with. I also think that the environment starts to allow you to, um. If I'm trying to create a business with someone that connects, supports their life differently. And actually if you're in a different environment, you feel different. You start to believe that you can actually create something that feels different as well. That's kind of like leading by example almost by uh, creating these environments. So that's super important. And I'm really lucky to use, uh, an old flint barn out in the Sussex countryside which has a flower garden in front of it, space for a fire pit. And then even in the winter is such a soulful, kind of warm place. Um, so that's really, really important. Um, the other one is your. I call it. Yeah, I say mind, I wouldn't really say mental state. But it's just about being present and, and kind of being. Building awareness of what's going on. What your thought patterns, what are the blockers in the way, what your limitations, you know, what your perceptions are limiting you either on the day or in bigger picture thinking about what's possible. Um, so that's really important. And then the last one is the body. And I think this is the piece that has been so powerful for me in terms of somatic work, which, um, probably something that maybe I switched off from for a lot of years. And I stayed a lot in my head and my mind to try and solve problems and think. And maybe that's where I saw my worth. And like this thinker, this organizer, this planner. And so over the last five years I've kind of done more, more self inquiry, then kind of learn practices that calm my nervous system just through three breaths. And you can start to calm and regulate your nervous system. Um, you know, I think that western medicine separates our mind and our body. And actually it's all interlinked. So a lot of the things we use will kind of um, support both getting into the best possible condition for work. Um, you know, your body being relaxed and tension free. So, you know, your muscles, how are they feeling? And then actually having an energetic flow in Your body, you know, like with, um, for anyone that's learning qigong or anything like that, actually feeling the energy in your body. I know you do reiki, that kind of thing.

Speaker A: Dance.

Speaker B: Yeah. Movement, yoga, anything like that. And you know, there are so many tools that I tap into. It's, it's not a retreat where I do an hour of yoga, but I just borrow from a little bit from yoga, a little bit of breath work, a little bit of meditation. Just going for a walk is enough for movement. You know, sitting around and you know, the endorphins come from talking to somebody else and sharing connection and feeling belonging. Um, you know, it's all little tiny things that make up the day, but it's about environment, your mind and your body and how those are set up. And I just want to acknowledge, actually also the more I learn about neurodivergence and trying to understand the differences in our uh, thought brain patterns and how we work, that's super important for me as well, especially as a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners are neurodivergent. And that's the creative part, the great thinking part. Um, but it's really. Yeah, so it's just those three things, those three elements, elements of what I'm cultivating all the time, whether that's one on one coaching, whether that's in a way down community, and even now trying to apply it to myself. The classic thing of not listening to that, but even more and more for myself, I've put myself in a way day. Um, and I've, and I've put myself out in nature just for me to have some thinking time. Um, rather than trying to think, actually I can do it sitting in a platform line, co working space because I need it as well.

Speaker A: So with all of that in mind, then the three principles, the environment, the mind and the body. There will be people here listening to this that are in employment. Yeah, they're not, they're not business owners and they're probably listening, thinking, right, well, how is this relevant to me? Because obviously it costs to go. I do I have to take a day's annual leave to go. How, how do I even pitch this to my boss to say, do you know what, I just want to go hang out in a barn with some cool people, eat some cool food and take my laptop. Like how do you, how do you justify that? So, and there was a, you know, I know there's definitely a shift, a huge need for this corporately and I'd like to think in times to come, Joel, there'll be a collaboration between kind of what I do and what you do and this kind of mergence of it coming together. But for now, until Joel and I take over the world and completely change the way we work, what can, what can we do as employees? If we're an employee.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And we don't have that same sense of freedom that we have as entrepreneurs.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What can we do? Small little micro things, perhaps every day or setting a day aside to make sure we are incorporating environment, mind and body into the way that we work.

Speaker B: It's a good question because it isn't easily accessible to everybody on the face of it. On the face of it. And I think, you know, you're probably better. Better place to answer this than me, but I've been thinking about this because you've asked me this and somebody recently, uh, parents from school about what I do, and they're like, how would I incorporate? You know, I'm a big company, there are 2,000 people in the company. How on earth is, uh, that ethos land there? And it's a good question. And I've been ruminating on a little bit, and I think that actually you take the same structure you can take from an away day and you could just do it in a different way. So, you know, the first bit is about landing, right? We'll, we'll arrive at work, and often we're rushed into work or we've dropped the kids off, um, at school and then jumped on a train and then driven in traffic or whatever. And so we're bringing this tension in already. So recognizing that and saying, actually, we just need to land in the space for five, 10 minutes. And that can be simply through some gentle breath work, you know, slowing our breath down. I'm not going to demonstrate it now, but just three breaths in through the nose and slowly elong. Getting out through the mouth and sudden. And if you do that in a group where you all acknowledge that you've just landed, that's five minutes of breathing, maximum. And suddenly our nervous systems are relaxed and, right, you're all here, you're here, you know, you're not there, you're not there, you're not there. I think you can bring in human connection. You could have 15 minutes where actually you just sit with a different member of the team every day and you might have a question of the day or. And yes, it can feel a bit cheesy, but actually, over time, suddenly there's a depth of connection and belonging and learning about each other that can be really, really Powerful. So, okay, you've now spent 20 minutes and so probably, you know, the productivity people in your business are like worried about it, but I feel like that 20 minutes is going to boost your productivity. I have no stats on this, so let's make one up by 25% across the rest of your day. Um, so I think there's, that there's kind of landing and connecting. You can do that, you know. Yes. Can you get out of your office for a walk at lunchtime? Can you get out and breathe the air? That would be great. Can you move, as you said, like some people like standing up and like dancing at their desk or moving, you know, stand up desk. Super important. Um, I think that the two of the things I was thinking about and I'm not sure where they land in the day, but, and I, and I use this word, it doesn't sound great, but I think you can rupture your day. So if you're stuck in something or if you're having, having a, um, you know, you've had a challenging meeting or whatever it might be, it's like, okay, then you can move or pause or breathe or do something. That means that you reset your kind of mental state from that moment, I think acknowledge it. But we've got to be aware of it in the first place. We're moving on to the next and move on to the next thing. So there is, there is some kind of, um, I think if you've landed in the space and connected, you're more likely to catch yourself falling out that feeling later on in the day. And I think maybe there's a, there's a piece of reflection, um, that can be done daily or weekly, um, where you, where you, where you share some gratitude. Whether that's writing it down, what you're grateful for in that day, what you've achieved, what someone else done in the company, really sharing some gratitude for each other that can rebuild neural pathways so that again, you have a more positive outlook, more positive perceptions of what's possible. Um, and something that you make me do quite a lot, which is uh, celebrate success or small wins, you know, and like a, create a small ritual around it. But if, you know, if you, if you've won a new piece of business. So often we do something and we're like, oh, even complete a piece of business, it doesn't have you winning it, like get, do the big thing or that actually we so often do something and I'm like done, like shove it to one side and you just go straight to the next thing it's actually pausing once a week and saying, what have I achieved this week? So, um, and then, and then acknowledging it, even just saying it, writing it down. That can be enough sometimes. Or doing something different. You know, if it's, if it's going to a coffee shop and buying a different coffee to try something new to just whatever it is, there has to be like a mental link to it or buying a piece of cake that you wouldn't normally buy just to yes, celebrate and have a moment of just like, yeah, I've done something there and that can be shared or on your own. So yeah, it's kind of landing connection, reflecting through those things. And then if you're in a bit of a, uh, stressful state or a moment that doesn't feel great, trying to rupture that with some, um, techniques that can be learned probably all over the Internet. Mhm.

Speaker A: Oh my God. I think everyone's got a long list now, Joel, of how to change their work day.

Speaker B: Great. And then if that, if none of that works, then you have to go and see your head of HR or your boss and say, we need to go to an away day with Joel.

Speaker A: Because that's absolutely.

Speaker B: That, that, that, you know, that, that, that, that uh, you know, and actually that, that's the thing. I think if you come to one of those days actually you can change your mindset around actually you can take things away from that that will help you and support you in, in those days. And coming to one of those days once a month, you know, actually will, will shift things and we'll actually make the rest of the week or the next couple of weeks feel a lot different as well.

Speaker A: I actually think as well just, just come to me slightly out of context of what you're saying, but one of the things I've also noticed over the course of the, the 10 that I've been to is that we come in, we come into it very looking out for ourselves. Like, I'm here for me today. This is, you call it, right, you're away day. Right. So it's, it's. Whilst your is a, it can be a plural. We come in, we come in quiet, individualistic, but actually what tends to happen is in that first kind of sharing circle where we're setting the intentions or we're talking about a story, or you've given us a question to ponder with each other and to uncover or even metaphorically uncover kind of where we're going and what we're about or the challenges we're Facing. And what's happening for us is that, uh, there's this real duty of care to each other. I think you role model it and we all kind of then get involved in this duty of care that when someone's like, I don't know, I'm really stuck on this thing. I don't know, everyone seems to go, I might, I might take it, I've got this thing to do. But do you want to do to grab a coffee and I'll help, I'll sit and chat with you if you want. And then people start to help problem solve stuff or even just lend an ear. And I think that is also one of the things that I don't think happens enough in the corporate environment where you're having those. This is the problem I'm facing today. This is the challenge I've got. Or as I alluded to before, this person's got three things to do. Vote on it and tell me which three of them you think I should work on. Um, you know, they say like a problem shares a problem halved. And I think what you create in those environments is an opportunity for people to share their challenges. And, um, without even making a request for it, people offer themselves in some way, shape or form. And it's happened to me multiple times and I've done it for other people and gone. I've really got to focus on this today, but I've got some insight on this. Should we walk together at lunchtime? Shall we sit together and we'll share food and I'll have a conversation with you about it then? And I don't think that happens enough in the workplace where we are all openly talking about our challenges, our problems. We tend to keep them quite under wraps because that's my problem and I have to fix and I have to solve it. And so I think there's another added dimension here that I think. I think the environment is the thing that allows that to happen.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're right. I think that, that, that, that's the one that fills me up the most. Right. I just create the space, create an environment very intentionally. May not feel like, you know, it's all very well thought out and coordinated and allow people to have those connections support each other. And I just see it all the time. And when I see people, people, you know, sometimes I know that people are going to have a conversation and connect, whether that's through personality or needs or industry. And they're kind of like the obvious ones, but then it's the unobvious Ones that uh, the most impactful for me, so. Oh wow. How they're helping each other. Look at that conversation happened. And even if I don't, even if I'm not aware of them, it might get shared at the end that people had a great conversation around something. Um, and I think that that goes back to the connection piece, right? That goes back to the real energy that you feel from being around other people and sharing. And I think it's similar in the men's work I do, you know, people be able to share and feel supported and then, then there becomes a feeling of belonging. Right? You belong somewhere, you're part of something. Um, but yeah, think about to kind of corporate environments or my business and do, you know, so often we feel like we have to have the solution, we have to have all the answers. As business owners, I certainly felt that, you know, my business, I should be able to solve every problem. I know that you do a lot of work on teams supporting the leadership to finances and actually trusting your team to do that. And so I think that yeah, that's really important because we can't do this alone, you know, and it's ice and that's when people get burnt out, that's when it feels isolated. That when, that's when you start to feel uh, disconnected or lonely.

Speaker A: Right. As a leader, even if you're surrounded by a leadership team, you, there's still, I mean I've done a whole podcast on this, my own experience of loneliness as a leader, right? There's, there's elements where you feel like you're really in it on your own. And so I think this sense of the movement and the sharing and the honoring where we're at, this whole problem solving piece, and even if it's not even problem solving, it's just listening, having someone there that's kind of unbiased isn't connected to the problem whatsoever. Just uh, holding that space for you. Even if it's not. It's not for a lunchtime walk. It's a five minute in passing conversation as we're in the, the kitchen, you know, having a coffee. There's just this so many layers to what happens at these away days that you can't help but walk away going back to roi, right? You can't help but walk away feeling well nourished, well rested, whilst having been really productive, well connected. And actually sometimes I come away having had like little epiphany moments. I was like, whoa, where did that from?

Speaker B: Come.

Speaker A: Come from? But it's because you stopped to Allow all this stuff, all these balls that you're juggling to put the balls down right now. M. They come back up tomorrow, but today they're down and it allows for other things to come through. So, Joel, they're magic. They're like absolute magic. You're working magic. And I would love to see the day where in terms of workplace culture, all these principles, the environment, the mind and the body are, uh, really taken seriously from a performance perspective. And even more so that you are inundated in your. In your corner empire and you're just coordinating all these away days everywhere for everyone. Probably not you doing them anymore. You've got like a wonderful team doing it.

Speaker B: I don't know. I. I like to be everyone and people can do all of the bits underneath it, and then I just get to go and be there and hold the space. I've been thinking about this. I could really accidentally fall into being the person to organize them all and not doing them, but maybe I need the people underneath to organize it.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And when. When does Joel get to do his own away day? Right.

Speaker B: So, yeah, that's important one too. I just. One last reflection, what you're talking about there, I think there's a. That kind of sharing and asking, um, not. Well, those connections that happen when people need help or support, that comes from a kind of trusting, safe environment. And that's what we're trying to create, you know, and that's what, again, within the men's spaces, that's what we create for men to come and belong and share and feel like they're supported and nothing is judged. And I think that's what. That's what's missing for. Founders don't have that space because they're doing it on their own. Often you might be found co founders having that space where you can actually just be learning it all out and feeling safe. And there's risk. There's always risk there. There's no such thing as a completely safe environment because the risk is how you feel. So I think that's what. Super, super important. And we can, yeah, put too much pressure on ourselves to do it all on our own.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. It really does feel like these. Some of these people are strangers, some of them are regulars, like me. You can't get rid of me. Right. There's a few other people that, you know, are turning. I reckon we should have loyalty cards, Joel, to be honest. Like some stamps and, uh, you know, there. There are some people there that are, uh, brand new. Like, new people that haven't experienced this before. And so then every environment you create, it's a new level of safety, it's a new level of personality, a new level of belonging, a new level of authenticity. And I think one of the things we have to do at work is we have to wear a lot of masks and we have to go, right, who do I have, who do I have to be today? And I think what you allow people to do at the away day is also not just putting down off the balls, but also I don't have to wear a mask right now.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can just.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, no labels, no hierarchy.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: I can just be. And whatever that being manifests itself in the day is great, whatever it is that you take away from it. So I can't speak highly enough, obviously, because I've been to so many of them. I think I'm probably one of your biggest fans when it comes to the away day, because, like, I've. I've gathered quite a lot of my lot, haven't I? Made them come. Um, and so if anyone who's listening right now, who's like, yeah, do you know what you had me sold in the first five minutes of this? That I needed this. And they've, they've stayed the long, long haul gel for the whole podcast and listened to it. Um, how can people get involved? How can people come and experience an away day, whether that's from a corporate perspective or they're coming from their own individual perspective. And you also alluded to Icebreakers as well. So if anyone's heard that and has gone, yep, that sounds like something I need. Where can people find you and become to come to some of these amazing events that you're putting on?

Speaker B: Yeah. So with, in your corner, there's my website, which is inyourcorner Co. And if you go on there, you will see, um, a link to coaching, but also a link to the events, as it's currently called, which is all the away days. Next away days on the 15th of May, 2025, depending when you're listening to this. But I do those once a month, so you can find that on there. And then I'm on Instagram. If you type it in your corner, you can find it. There are various dashes, but I can't remember where they are now, so I'm not going to pretend which ones they are. Um, and then, yeah, for Icebreakers, um, we meet. Well, this is Icebreakers in Brighton. Just, um, so everyone knows there is one in Bath, there is one in Bristol, there is one in London. So if you're listening in different parts of the country, and there are more coming soon, um, and you can find me in Brian on Instagram, which is Icebreakers dot Brighton. Um, and then once you see there, I'll always post in there about where we're meeting, what time of meeting. Once you dip with us, we'll put you on a WhatsApp group. Another WhatsApp group. I know, but, um, we meet Sundays, M at 8am um, on Hove beach, halfway between Lexus. Sorry, halfway between Rockwater and King Alfred. Uh, Leisure Center. But yes, drop me a message or a DM on any of those and I can answer any questions or sort anything out. Or you could just go and sit outside Sophie's house and wait till she drive down to. And not down to Brighton, because she comes about another time. But yeah, she's off. She's always, uh, driving down to the away day. So just follow her. She'll be there eventually. At the end of the month.

Speaker A: I am. Yeah. Just message me and I'll take you along. Um. It's fine. Um, Joel, it's been a delight. It's been, It's a delight going to the away days, and it's been a real joy listening to the process that's gone into creating them, why they exist, what you stand for with this, the. The movement you're trying to create. I really, I mean, I knew it. All right. But we've never actually, really, you and I, we don't sit down and talk about the mechanics of it because we're. We're in it and we're coaching each other and, and kind of egging each other on to go do the next big. The next big thing we're being called to do, or small thing being called to do. So it's been a real joy to talk to you about this. And I really hope that people listening, even if they're not able to join the away day, there is an invitation there to take some consideration to what are you doing in your environment? What does your environment look like? What does it feel like? Is your. Is your environment set up for the work you need to do that day? And is there a need to mix it up and find something a little bit unique, a little bit different in order for you to help step into the space, the brain space that you need for the day? Um, and you know how big an advocate I am for the mind and body with my yoga practice that I bring into workplace culture and the nutrition side that I bring into workplace culture. Critical elements for me around performance. So I really hope everyone listening is able to. If they can't make it to an away, they can't experience that. Then there's three little areas they can think about. Environment, mind and body to start thinking about. How can I work differently with the uh, with the mechanisms I've currently got available to me? So I think that was really, really key to share that. Joel, it's been an immense pleasure having this conversation. Are there any parting thoughts or comments you'd like to make as we end the podcast?

Speaker B: I think just listening to your taught then, um, just reminded me back to me a few years ago and I'm the only one that can change this. So if your environment isn't right, your mind and your body, you can change it. And whether that is, yeah, speaking to, if you know you're in an employment and you speak to somebody to support you with that, or um, you can find people, people are always out there to help you change those things, but it's down to you to find those people and make those changes. So yeah, if you're feeling stuck, isolated, overwhelmed, burnt out, it is possible to change. And sometimes it comes down to you to try and make those shifts. That can feel really hard, but you can do it.

Speaker A: M. And I think there's such a power that comes from you taking the ownership and responsibility for that. Because I think with burnout, there can become a bit of a victim mentality around that. The organization is doing that to you. Yes, they are. But what are you saying yes to? Because every time you say yes, burnout compounds itself. So I guess what I'm hearing you say is there's an invitation there for if there's something not working for you around your environment, your mind and your body. When it comes to work, you've got the power to change that and to real step into your own sense of accountability for that. Okay, love that. Joe, it's been a pleasure. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode. Joel gave a lot of links just then. I will put them in the show notes so you can just easily click on them and find them. And Joel, I'll also include your LinkedIn profile because you send out quite a few thought provoking. Some of them are subtle nudges and some of them are like, whoa, did he just write that? Um, so yeah, if you can't come to an away day, um, you can connect with Joe on LinkedIn where you'll see him talking a lot in this space as well. And so you'll, you'll get a little bit of the Joel experience in the Away Day Experience experience, just through the four pieces and the articles that you write about this stuff. So I'll include that in the show notes. So thank you everyone for listening. I hope you've enjoyed it. And I'll be back again soon with another episode of the Rebel Work Podcast. Thank you very much, Joel, and see you later, everyone.

Speaker B: Thanks. Bye.