#16: Beyond the 9-to-5: Building a Portfolio Career and Lasting Wealth with Julia Stefani

Speaker A: Do you have any specific frameworks on how to build trust?

Speaker B: I'd say it all starts with listening, like really listening to people so you can understand them. If you've done your listening well in the beginning, then you can navigate that hard time better. It's a group of people that are trying to work on a set of problems together. And depending on so many factors, the personalities, the stage of the company, the shape in which the company is, the outside market, what's going on in the world, all of those are, uh, factors that impact how this group of humans interact and work together. Joining us today is Yulia Stefani, a seasoned product leader with over 15 years of experience across fintech, crypto and engineering.

Speaker A: What skills matter today doesn't matter where

Speaker B: you are, what you're doing. It has to be AI. You don't have to become a data scientist or go create new models, but you have to understand it at a conceptual level, how these technologies are used. The way we wrote everything for the Internet, we're going to rewrite everything for the AI.

Speaker A: Hello, welcome to the Priyanka Shinde podcast where we dive into the art and science of strategy, execution and leadership. I'm your host, Priyanka Shinde, author of the Art of Strategic Execution and a consultant for tech leaders. In this podcast I bring you candid conversations with top executives, startup founders and industry experts who are driving innovation, delivering results and staying ahead in today's competitive landscape. We will break down what it takes to tap into founder mode and turn vision into action. If you are serious about elevating your leadership and execution skills, make sure to subscribe on your favorite podcast, platform, platform or YouTube. It helps the podcast and ensures you never miss an episode. Hi everyone, welcome ah to the Priyanka Shinder podcast. Today's guest is someone I got to briefly work at in my early days at Meta, Yulia Stefani. She is an accomplished product and business leader specializing in fintech, AI and digital transformation. Yulia is currently the Chief Product Officer at Treasure Financial where she leads the product design and engineering teams in developing next generation treasury management solutions for small and medium sized businesses. In the last year, Ilya founded Swolta Ventures with her life partner Matt as part of her exploration into building a portfolio career offering fractional executive leadership in data and product as well as strategic career and interview coaching. Their expertise spans product strategies, agile methodologies and leveraging AI and data analytics for sustainable business growth. Yulia also is the owner and CEO of Bungalow, a uh, luxury home decor brand for elegant, eclectic designs inspired by Global Travels and Natural Beauty. Bungalow's commitment to sustainable, high quality products has generated dedicated following among boutique home decor enthusiasts. And Bungalow's products can be found on their website, Anthropologie and boutiques around the country. Yulia's most important project though is her five and three year old children. She balances her professional pursuits with her dedication to family life. So excited to have you here, Yulia. Welcome.

Speaker B: Thank you Priyanka. Thank you for the invitation. I'm very excited to be chatting with you today.

Speaker A: Yeah, really looking forward to this conversation. I would love to learn a little bit more about what you're doing today. So tell us a little bit more.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So you touched on it a little bit in uh, the intro. I have a pretty busy schedule at the moment. Uh, my primary commitment is to Treasure Financial where I serve as the Chief Product Officer and I work with a team to build treasury management software. We have two main products, a platform where small and medium sized businesses can park their money and we manage them actively. Uh, and we have an API that allows other fintechs to launch their own investment products on the side. As you mentioned a little bit, I've been, the last few years I've been looking into testing and learning just like a real product manager, this idea of a portfolio career. I've had a few interests for a while with COVID and becoming a mom. A lot of how I think about the world started shifting. Um, so I have a few little ventures that I'm working on that are more like nighttime and weekend wherever time permits. But as you said, I have a home decor brand that I acquired last year that I have a small team that helps me create new uh, products for the home decor space and also do some coaching, uh, and fractional advising on the side with my partner. Uh, all of this are parts of my identity if you will, and different interests. Um, and I'm looking forward to actually debating this more with you and digging more into that. But just like you said, nothing more important is more important to me than my two little kids, uh, my five year old son, my three year old daughter. So everything I do is done with them in mind on how I can create um, an environment for them to learn and grow strong, uh, and a mom that they're proud of. Um, so yeah, that's me in a nutshell.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's so amazing and really so inspiring for you to be that mom to them and do this for them while kind of like building your career, doing not just your main day job but really Building out something more. And you're learning and growing along the way, I'm sure, like, trying to figure things out. And we'll talk more about that, but it's amazing, and I'm so amazed that you're finding this time and opportunities to do this thing. And you've had such an incredible career arc from engineering to technical program management, tpm, product leadership. In fact, when we met during early days of my early days at then Facebook, uh, you used to be in technical program management. I remember you used to, uh, run the F8 events, if I'm not mistaken. And so what has.

Speaker B: Yeah, you remember it. Yeah.

Speaker A: And so you've had this, like, career pivots or, you know, kind of M moves. And I'm sure that has led to a lot of what you're doing today. So what has guided these, uh, career pivots through your journey?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think at the core, um, at my core I'm a learner, um, and I always want to be exploring new things and new ideas. I joke that if I was a very rich person, I would just go from college to college and do degree over degree, just exploring new concepts and learning new things. Uh, similarly, I've approached my career a, uh, same way. In a way, I think about it as, uh, as a company, right? Like when, you know, when you start building a company, you start on one use case, right? And you do the best you can there. You solve that use case really well. And then you start looking at how do you expand. And you can expand with an adjacent user group, or you can expand with a secondary use case for your current user group. In a way, that's how I look at every new opportunity I jump on. I want to be able to be in an environment where I have enough expertise to be helpful and give to the team from day zero. But there needs to be some white space for me to grow into for me to explore and grow. So I started my career as an engineer. I studied computer science and finance, and my first job I was building servers. Very quickly I realized that I was a lot more excited about thinking through how I use technology to solve the problem than actually implementing it. So I started looking into what are some opportunities for me to move more into program management, Technical program management at the time, because product was still a new idea and got my master's in it. So that was the first step I took. And I'm like, oh, I moved a little bit from where I was and I learned so much more and I was so excited. And I noticed that every couple years or whenever that cycle of like, I really understand the space I'm in or this use case I'm building, I get a little antsy where I need meet a new challenge. And a lot of times that is a new role at the same company or an expansion of my role. And sometimes it's new companies, but the common theme is learning and growing and forcing myself to build new skills with every new opportunity.

Speaker A: That's wonderful. And I've never heard anybody think of it as a, ah, use case. So you're the first person that is describing like, okay, how do I think of my career or something new that I'm doing in my career as a use case. And that's really interesting to me because when we think about taking on a new opportunity, a lot of people usually think about it as like, it's a career step and like, how does it maybe lead me to the next level? And usually people see careers as ladders, right. So I'm sure as you have reinvented yourself multiple times, even though you mentioned that you're a career learner and you're, you want to do different things, there can always, like, things will be very new or you have probably been unsure about these new areas. And so what has been your internal process to navigate that?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a really good question. Um, I mean, when you work in technology, you can stay in the same space and still there's new technologies out there that will force you to learn. Right? So at a basic level, I try to use first principles, right? Like get down to what is the problem we're solving, who we're solving it for, and how do we get that solution built or created in the, in the best time, uh, in the shortest time possible so we can move fast. And that could be a product you're building, could be a process you're building internally, could be research into understanding the market. At the end of the day, you're building something for someone, you're solving a problem for somebody, right? So the base is all the same. And if you approach things with curiosity and openness to understanding then, and break things down to like their smallest level, then you start building it back up. I know it's easier said than done, and it takes practice, right. As you grow in your career, you've been in enough conversations where you start, your brain just starts connecting things easier than we're starting out. So when you're younger, I think you need to be more disciplined about almost asking yourself a set of questions to help you break down things to those first principles. And as you grow in your career some of that is innate. That's experience, right? It comes with experience. But in every new environment that's how I approach it, with open mindedness, curiosity and trying to break it down to the system underneath or the building blocks underneath. At the end of the day you cannot take the engineer out of me. So that's how I'm um, sort of wired, right to look at every problem and think critically about it and break it down into the pieces of the puzzle so that you can try and put it together.

Speaker A: I think that's a very important thing you mentioned about like uh, openness, curiosity and this just breaking down something that's like a big unknown into specific steps or whatever systems that would just help you move forward or like learn about something or just probably get more familiarity with things. Because sometimes when you don't know something and there is a lot of unknowns that can feel very overwhelming. And so the method you mentioned can really help get to how do I just, you know, become more familiar with something so then I don't feel like, you know, I'm unsure or I'm overwhelmed and get to a place of surety. So that's really helpful. Uh, and I'm sure sometimes a lot of people feel that, especially nowadays that there's so much ambiguity happening or even with like a lot of new technology and AI coming, there's a lot of that um, lack of surety or lack of um, context and uh, there's so much complexity that definitely I think just going and asking a lot of questions sometimes helps. And I'm sure you have learned a lot because you've gone from big companies to startups and you know, also building your own things. What did you learn as you transitioned between like these different size companies and different uh, types and cultures of companies.

Speaker B: So I think I've learned to be moldable, right. And change with the environment. I, whenever I join a new organization I don't make any assumptions on how things are run or are supposed to be run or even that I approach it as is. It's a group of people that are trying to work on a set of problems together. And depending on so many factors, the personalities, the stage of the company, the shape in which the company is, the outside market, what's going on in the world, all of those are uh, factors that impact how this group of humans interact and work together. And similar to how I approach a new problem or a new space, um, to understand. Same thing with going into a New company, right. It's understanding uh the people at the core of it, understanding the business, understanding what drives the business and the business model and what is good for the company, what is good for the user and then creating almost like little experiments on how you work with the people and similar to what you do with the product and then see what works better uh for the environment you're in. I am driven by, I'm a very uh, Trust is very important to me. So wherever in a new environment that's the first thing that I try to uh, create with people like a good rapport based on trust. I am very open and very direct. Actually used to get me in trouble at the beginning of my career. I've learned to be direct in better ways as I've grown as a professional and as a human. But that's how I approach new environments. And I've worked at Meta is probably the biggest company I've worked at and I right now, well I run my own things that are very small and also I am at a series a startup and there's lots of nuances that are similar at the end of the day there's people with challenges, there's communication challenges at uh, every stage doesn't matter how big or small the company is but they're also run very differently, right? Like something you can move a lot quicker at a small startup because there's only 10 of you and it's very easy to get everybody to talk about a topic. At a bigger company you have to realize that your negotiation, your coordination skills actually need to come to the forefront no matter what job you're doing because you're, you can't get anything done within one team. You're generally working across teams, right. So while the approach of understanding the environment is different, I know that the levers I need to pull and I know that what's important or what works in one size of a company is very different than another one. I've also worked in pure tech companies and I've uh, worked in more fintech companies where the power dynamics are different. In a tech company everything organizes around the PM in general like the product manager, right. And they come up with in a way the business plan for the product, coordinate with marketing, all the external companies, sorry teams. Whereas at a company like Sofi for example we were paired up with a business unit leader that was more of like that business knowledge and the product manager was more like the product that we're building. It was a co lead of the product. So very different dynamic, right. And you have to adjust to, uh, almost the rules of the games. Right? You understand the rules of the game and then you play within them, um, or you help shape them.

Speaker A: I think that's a really important point you make because a lot of times when people join new companies, that is one of the things that they overlook. Or sometimes it can be very difficult to adjust to a new culture because you're used to doing things a certain way and then you're rewarded for those things in the previous environment. Uh, and you think that that is the thing that I got rewarded for, so I should continue. And it's really hard, uh, to understand that that may not be the thing that you might get rewarded on or that might work in a new setting. So you're really, uh, bringing up a very good point. And I wanted to kind, uh, of dig in further on that. When you, like, is there anything you talked about trust, which is one. And I really wanted to ask you on, like, do you have any specific frameworks or guidance on how to build trust with a new set of people? Because I feel like that is something people really need to do well and it needs to happen quickly. A lot of times, and especially now, I feel like trust is something that is really hard to come by in this particular environment that we are in. So what has helped you build trust quickly with the people around you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'd say it all starts with listening, like, really listening to people so you can understand them, understanding the environment they're in. Right. Like there's, uh, when you join a organization, there's going to be people that are brand new, full of excitement and energy, and there's going to be people that have been there, then have seen a few more things, right. That might be a little bit more disillusioned. So the approach with those two types, uh, of people or states uh, they're in needs to be different. Right. But at the base of it, it is all about listening with an open mind and really understanding where they're coming from, understanding what drives them, understanding what's important to them, uh, understanding how they see the organization and their perspective and doing the same on your side, like being open about who you are, what drives you, what you've learned, where you've come from, if you have high enough emotional intelligence, sharing where you're not as strong, where you need help from the rest of the team, be it as a peer or as a leader in the team, and you create those initial, uh, ties. I don't think you really build trust until you've gone through a fire together. Like, you build, you're open to trust, and there's no reason to not trust somebody. But it's when you've worked through that first hurdle together as a team, I think that that trust gets solidified. Like when people see you standing up for them, helping them through a hard time, whatever that might be. So there's work you can do in almost like, peace time, I would call it that. It sort of builds the foundation. Uh, that's all about getting to know them at a human level and understanding what drives them and motivates them. And then I don't think you fully solidified until you've. You've gone through a war together and made it to the other side.

Speaker A: It's like baking and cooking all of the things together. And then, like, then it becomes more, you know, something more digestible and, like, delicious.

Speaker B: Um, that's a really good way to put it. Yeah.

Speaker A: Coming to me. Yeah, that's really. I think. I think you kind of nailed it when you say that when teams go through tough times, it kind of brings out the character of how they might work together and really solidifies the trust. That's really helpful.

Speaker B: And if you've done your listening well in the beginning, then you can navigate that hard time better.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because you ideally understand each other and know when to show up for a person, when to give them, especially if you're a leader in the team. But even as a teammate, like, you understand when in what situation someone might need more support and which one, you need to take a step back and let them lead.

Speaker A: I think the listening thing is. Yeah, um, that point is also very important because sometimes there can be this thing. Right. Okay. I need to have all the answers and I need to show, like, uh, I need to have all of these wins. But listening can really help. And so are there any other kind of tips or advice that you would give somebody when they join a new place or are in a new team or a role?

Speaker B: Yeah. So I would tell them outside of understanding the team and how things work is to really understand the business at, like, its core form.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Like what, what drives the business? What. Like, in a way, all product leaders need to be finance people, uh, to understand, really at the core, how the business works. And I think the combination of those two help you get acclimated to. To the new environment. I would say the first, uh, the first stage, as I said, is listening. And then the second stage is, as you understand, where opportunities might be being proactive, uh, to try and Help maybe solve some of the things that have not been working. You're a new person with a new perspective. Uh, so it's the best time for you to, um, come up with some ideas to help the team potentially in whatever struggles they're facing. And again, going back to, if you've done that first part well and you've built enough trust, then you can help drive the team forward in a, in a better way.

Speaker A: Great. So I also wanted to kind of dig in a little bit more about your entrepreneurial journey. Right, you have, you've been working. What kind of sparked your interest in, um, kind of going the entrepreneurial route?

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'll start by saying the only reason I can do all this is because I have a lot of help. I have an amazing partner that really does is 50, 50 with me and everything we need to do with the kids and the home, and my parents live with us most of the. So I have a lot of help, which is why I have been able to like, scratch this itch I've had for, like, something of my own. Uh, but the, the origin story on why it started, I think it was a mix of becoming a mom and the shock of COVID So I became a mom in March 2020. We went into the hospital and people were talking about COVID And we came out and everything was shut down. So I come home with a new baby in a pandemic, full blown world pandemic. Um, and that kind of shakes you on, like, what's important and what you, what care about. Um, but I think the biggest driver was like, once I became a mom, what is important kind of started shifting in me and what I cared about and, um, what I valued most. Like, my framework kind of changed a little bit. I'm still a learner at heart. Right. And everything I'm doing, I'm doing them because there is again, that white space on where I can grow. Uh, but it started out as this idea of I want to maximize the time I'm spending with my children for those 18 years that I have them, because then they'll go fly, build their own life and their own home. But I am not ready to be a stay, um, at home mom. I love being a professional. I love tackling challenges. It's part of my identity. I moved countries for the opportunity to go to better schools and build a better career. So, uh, that's deep into who I am. So I start as I was up with my kids most of the night. I didn't have very good sleepers. I started doing research into like, what are side businesses, um, new ideas that I could lean into. Um, read about this idea of a portfolio career that sounded interesting. And in true product manager, I'm like, what if I could a b test this? And the first actually steps were through. There were a few coaching platforms that had reached out to me and asked if I wanted to coach people interviewing. I'm like, oh, that sounds great. I would have loved to have someone help me when I was going through interviews. So that's where it started. Like very little. An hour a week, an hour a month, depending on the month when people needed help. And I found a lot of joy in being able to help people. And as I grew in my career and I became more of like a people manager, I found this like profound joy in like seeing someone on my team be able to excel at what they were doing or take on a new response responsibility. And I got a lot of good feedback on like, how was I was approaching those nurturing and helping people grow in their career type of problem. So that's kind of where Swalta became, um, and it was also another idea with my partner. I'm like, we love one. One of the things I love a lot of things about him, but one of the things I love about him is his brain. And I love having just nerdy discussions about different topics. He's a data guy, um, engineer and data. And I'm more on the product side. Um, so I'm like, what if we did this together and found projects where we can come in at different angles and it's quality time for us. It's something we both love doing and maybe it can become something. So that's how Svolta was born. Just Svolta is if, uh, the name is from the word Svolta, which means a step forward in Italian. And I changed the V for W for his last name. So we're hoping to. Whoever we work with, if it's a person that I'm just coaching on their next interview, or a startup that is figuring out their data strategy, or right now I'm helping a startup hire their first head of product. I'm helping them figure out how they interview for a head of product. Any of those. We hope that we can help whoever we're working with to make the best to make a change in their direction. Right. And move in the right direction. Um, so that's kind of where it all started. Uh, the bungalow story is a little different, tied back to Covid. Um, I was at home a Lot and I have this like little baby now. So like this, this, this desire to create a more homey environment and I became almost obsessed with like everything had to be organic and everything we eat and everything we wear. And so I started looking into brands that are good quality. And that's how I met Shay the actually the founder of Bungalow. And she was a fellow mom, had had the company for a while. She's an artist so she came up with all the initial patterns and she was looking to do something new. And it just felt like um, a beautiful project and a beautiful company with a beautiful brand and that stood for something I stood for. And going back to that white space, I have done product. I can run a product team. I have worked with marketing. I have never run an E commerce business. I don't know much about home decor. So there's plenty for me to grow. But there's a base, right? I can still run the operations. I know how to do a P and L. So there's enough for me to get started and then still grow. So that's why I eventually bought the brand late last year. And it's been great. A lot of the operations are very automated thanks to technology, which is the only reason why I'm able to do all of this at the same time. Uh, but yeah, it's been great to dig into E commerce trends and what works and what doesn't. I've gotten a lot better at creating reels like all things that I didn't uh, know before. But, but at the end of the day it's all about creating multiple income streams. These are right now are all ideas and tests. Right. And if they grow and this all become their own full blown businesses, great. And if they don't, guess what? I learned something, met some new people and it's great, right? For someone that thrives in learning new things, it's still a win for me. It's um, because I get something, get enjoyment out of it. Um, so yeah, that's kind of the story behind all my little initiatives.

Speaker A: This is so great to hear. Like you know one of like how you leveraging your expertise to do something new. And so even though like you talk about Swolta and like how it kind of like really leverages your expertise and your partner's expertise and just brings it together and that, you know, it's a great start because then you're kind of doing something new but it leads off or leads off of actually a lot of what you are already familiar with. And then at the same Time we talk about bungalow and like I said, there's a lot of skill sets you already have in terms of product and operations and things like that. And at the same time you now learn something new. Um, and I bring this up because sometimes especially you talk about like you have had the engineering background and the program and management, uh, background and the product. And a lot of times people ask this question like, what does my career look like? Uh, what is it? You know, uh, especially in program management and given a lot of these changes happening and a lot of like talk around it in terms of like, is it it dead? Is it not dead? You know, what is the real value of it? There's a lot of questions around it and a lot of times I answer this question when people come to me, it's like, think of the skill sets you're building. Don't think of career, your career in terms of titles, in terms of positions, but in terms of your skills. And when you think of your career in terms of your skills, then you can be anything. And your career arc is kind of that testament to it that you leverage your expertise, you leverage your skill set and then you go on and you can do anything. And you really kind of defined it beautifully in terms of like there is this portfolio career, I can do all of these things. And I wanted to kind of ask you also for the benefit of like everybody who's listening or watching is you talk about a portfolio career and you talk about multiple income streams. How do you define a portfolio career and what mindset shift do you think is needed to embrace that idea of a portfolio career versus like having a traditional career?

Speaker B: Um, so I think about it just in terms of, I think I've been in investments uh, for a while now. So similar to diversify your investment portfolio. Right. Um, it's kind of the, at the basis of having a portfolio career. So if you're involved in multiple things that are tied together but are leveraging different skill sets, in a way you're future proofing yourself and you're allowing uh, yourself to grow in different ways. There's also like more mundane things like there's tax advantages to being a business owner. So like, so when you think about wealth building and creating more wealth for your family, there's different levers you can pull when you are not only a W2 employee or you're not a W2 employee at all. Like there's people that do a full time job and something on the side their whole career. So that's kind of how I think about uh, the portfolio career, I think it needs to be diversified in the type of work, um, or the way the amount of time that you're spending on it or the skill sets that you're using and also uh, be able to allow you to leverage different um, uh, approaches to wealth building. Right. At the end of the day that is at the core of it. I am trying to leave something to my kids, kids and I don't want to be consumed by working 60 hours a week every week because I want to spend time with them. And in a way, um, not to be too dark, but you never know what's going to happen in life, right? So we're young and healthy and we can work 60 hours a week at a company and some of us are lucky enough to work at brands that make it really big and then that sets your, sets you up for, for life. Right. But a lot of other people will work a 9 to 5 job and have to work until retirement to be able to make their ends meet. So in my view these are tests that I'm running. Uh, the ideal for me is that I work because I want to work. I work because this is pure enjoyment and pure uh, self actualization in the Maslow hierarchy. But not something that I need to close the month. Right. Or be able to build my wealth. So yeah, that's how I think about the, a portfolio approach for and it will be different from different people because we all have different skill sets. Um, so not everyone will start an E commerce and a coaching business. And honestly I don't know if this will be my thing. As I said, these are tests, right. And uh, I continue to think about what are other areas that I could um, that I could use my expertise in such a way that is not the reward is not proportional to the time I'm putting in the effort. Right. So ideally just like when you're building a product or a business, right you want to find the least amount of work and the highest reward for it. Right. So I'm always on the hunt for is there another one that I can add in that will allow me to uh, still not work my whole life and get more of it?

Speaker A: That's just so important. So even when you're thinking about the career, one is diversifying your career so that, but one change of events doesn't impact your entire life or doesn't turn it topsy turvy. And we are seeing that happen a lot in the last two to three years. So like you said, not to sound dark but if you are dependent on only one company or one skill set, then that is, the likelihood of that happening is higher. And just like if you're investing in the stock market and if you're, if you have your stock spread across multiple, then like getting your wealth wiped out by one stock going down, if that's just thing you have invested in, then that's going to happen versus if you're diversifying your stock portfolio. And I think that's. It's a very easy analogy to see once you put it that way. And yet a lot of people may not see it that way. And then the second thing you said, which is, I'm m doing this, but I still see it as a test, which means you quit this and hey, it may or may not work out, or I may or may not see this as like something that, you know, is for me the whole next 20 years, it's okay, I might do something else, and that's okay too. And that's the beauty of, I feel like being in this part of like this modern working career times, is that you don't have to stick to one thing Sometimes. You know, I've also heard people say, oh, but my degree, my college degree wasn't this. And if I don't do this, then, you know, did I waste my college degree? And I was like, that was 20 years ago. It doesn't matter anymore. Or sometimes I'll hear, you know, my, my parents sometimes, like, are you still using things that you studied in college? So I feel like when you say test, I think it is really important to see things that way. If something's working, you enjoy, don't enjoy just, you know, live life or live your work in a way that, you know, it, it feels fulfilling and that's where it is. Like, it has to feel fulfilling and you should enjoy doing the things. And especially if you have means to do it. Not everybody may be able to get to that. If you can, then that is an opportunity to explore that rather than sticking to a traditional way. And I think that really requires, I mean, yes, it does require a mindset shift and it's really important. Uh, and it's really great to see you do this. Um, but I really love the way you kind of look at how you approach exploring your entrepreneurial journey as well. Uh, and it's very inspiring.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you. I've. I've learned one thing, that the more you have set expectations, the more you're setting up yourself potentially for disappointment. But also you're limiting your possibilities. Right? Because then that's just whatever your brain of one person can, can think of. So if you treat things as just an opportunity to learn and grow and get somewhere else, you might actually get more than what you initially thought possible. I used to be a person that had my whole life planned out and I knew when I was to get married before even starting dating and when I was going to have my kids because I'm a type A personality at heart. And uh, life just taught me that being open minded, like who knew I was going to live in California? Like I moved to the states to go to college and go right back home to my parents and jokes on that girl that had it all planned out. Life uh, is completely different. But if you're, if you're open and you see, see uh, your experiences as an opportunity to learn and grow so you um, will first of all show up better because you're not stressing yourself out about achieving exactly what your mindset and you will most probably actually do better than if you had a really clear plan. By all means, I'm not saying do not have a plan for your life and never think about where you're going. Right. Like it's important to have to speak in product terms again, to have a vision.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Of what you think is possible. And uh, to me the values I hold are not changing but how they apply, how they show up, how they like there's so many new things that are, that get created every day, especially in technology that jobs that didn't exist, like product management is one thing that when I was finishing college it wasn't really a thing, it was all project management. Right. And then that started out as more of a career on its own. So if you're open, uh, you will, I think you'll receive more because you will show up better. And that's how I try to live my life. I think the most, not to get too inspirational, but I think the most important thing in life is health. As long as you have your health then, and you approach life with curiosity, you will, you will get good places. Uh, I know I have maybe I am very privileged. I've had a, I've been able to go to college. I've always had a support system. So I don't mean to make it sound like, like everybody should be feeling this way because there's people that go through much harder lives and have much bigger hardships. But um, yeah, I strongly believe in as long as you have your health and you're open minded and you think about life as a series of experiences and you try to optimize whatever makes you happy, whatever your values are, that's a way to achieve more and also enjoy more.

Speaker A: That's so true. You talked about like, you know, when, when you passed after college, there weren't certain careers weren't even there. And then they sort of came up and became popular when you look forward from here. And since you also coach many leaders in tech and in product, what skills or uh, what should leaders be thinking about today? Uh, or what skills matter today that you know, that people should be focused on or people should be thinking about like, like that might become, you know, very, very prevalent in five years or so.

Speaker B: Yeah, so I get this question a lot. I actually just wrote a blog post about it. But a year or two ago it would have depended on who you were, what state you're in, what you're trying to achieve. Right. And stage of your career, the industry, or anywhere you're trying to go. And now I think my answer is one and only. Doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing, it has to be AI. I expect the next five years there's the way we wrote everything for the Internet, we're going to rewrite everything for the AI, um, phase, if you will. And not every product has to become an AI first product, but I expect it will have an impact like as I said web did and mobile did at its time. So if you're not as a product manager, if you're not learning the basics of how to use this new technology, both as how to leverage it to make yourself faster, which everybody should be doing, if you're not using one of the tools out there to expedite your day to day, then you're falling behind everybody else. But also from like understanding conceptually all like the new technologies, new frameworks of building new tools out there, you're going to fall behind on being able to um, to actually land the next job or even, even thrive. Uh, there was an article I was reading recently about the increase in job PM job openings. And you can clearly see the AI PM jobs going up like a hockey stick and traditional PM jobs flattening or even actually declining. So there's a, like data that will make it very clear for you. But that's what I tell everyone. I'm like, you don't have to become a data scientist or go create new models, but you have to understand it at a conceptual level how these technologies are used. So to me that is really, if you've got spare time, uh, I joke that I wish I was back in college right now so I had more time so I could really dig in. Uh, but that is really, I think the most. No matter if you are an IC or a leader, you gotta understand it at a conceptual level. And I think that's the best time spent right now at least.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It is so true. I mean I saw that um, graph too where the AI jobs, the PM jobs.

Speaker B: Lenny's newsletter.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. On Lenny's post and newsletter as well. And I just from like some of. Because I keep getting a lot of like these jobs come up and things like that and I see that even in other areas. So not even pm, but uh, from engineering side or like transformation program management. I see a lot of them like have AI tacked on uh, to them. So everybody is thinking about that. A lot of jobs that are open now are just focused a lot more on AI or AI related things. Um, and so you're spoiled.

Speaker B: Yeah. I was talking to a woman yesterday that was interviewing for an operations role and she's like AI questions keep coming up, but there's no AI in the job description. And I'm like, well they're preparing. Like every company is thinking about it even if they're not in that space right now. It will become a table stakes. I think for us in tech it already is table stake skills to at least understand at a fundamental level. But yeah, so even when it doesn't say that it needs AI experience and understanding in the job description, people are getting questions about it in their interviews and to me makes perfect sense. It's like, like it's where the new battleground will be. So I agree you gotta learn it.

Speaker A: I know there's an. And it's the same thing. It was like if, if we had all the time there was like you could learn so much and there would be so many different ways you could like go about like taking all of the different courses and exploring every single tool out there. And there are so many interesting AI tools uh, to explore. Right. Uh, and you could play around with them all, all day long.

Speaker B: Oh yeah. The development is, is nothing like technology has always been fast. I think the speed we're seeing right now is it's hard to even keep up with the uh, titles, let alone read everything that comes out. So I uh, think it's a very exciting time. And AI, I think as a technology is scary when you think about the implications that it has for society and being able to regulate it the right way. So it's uh, it's Going to need big shifts and big decisions and big changes everywhere. Not just in the tech products that we build, but it's got amazing potential. Um, so I'm here for it.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Speaking of time, I know like, you know, you're an executive at a startup, you run your own venture, you coach other people, you're of course a mom, which is one of your most important roles. How do you structure your time and priorities across all of these different roles?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think becoming, uh, a parent makes, um, you really good at prioritization. Um, it's almost like a, I don't know, a gene that gets turned on when you, when you start, uh, being a parent. So I, every night I will think about what's most important for me to achieve the next day. A lot of my side things happen outside of hours, right. Like when I'm done with, uh, my core job. So after I put my kids to sleep is generally my. Let's ideate a little bit on Bungalow and see if there is any new trends out there that should be looking at or is the content calendar ready? Uh, but I also automate a lot and I have, um, different assistants that help me with specific skills. Right. So I'm almost like a pilot that like, or an orchestra director that is kind of looking through things and making sure things are set up for the next day. Some of my coaching, obviously I do myself right. So that is, that is slightly different. That is more ties, uh, out my work. But a lot of that happens, as I said, in the evening, so really early in the morning before my kids get up. And just to reiterate, the only reason why I can do this is because my parents take care of my kids during the day, uh, and they're here if I need them. Um, I have a coaching client in the evening. They're here to help. And my partner is a very, very present partner and father. So I have all of this help that allows me to carve out a couple more hours a day in the evenings, um, or the weekends, uh, to get some of this, this test and learn that I'm running for myself. So a lot of like being intentional with my time at the end of it and, and being structured on thinking, uh, what's the, like prioritizing. It comes down to prioritizing, right? Like prioritizing the list. Uh, that's. That that is important to tackle the next day or the next week. Um, and not having a lot of fluff time when I'm working. I'm working because I want to get Done. And go play with my kids.

Speaker A: Kids. So yeah, that's uh, so true. I'm sure. Yeah, there's like, you can't just like sit in front of the tv.

Speaker B: No, no much of that, uh, right now. But it's okay. Yeah.

Speaker A: And, and I mean I'm sure you would rather like go play with, with the kids, right? I think that is so much more important, uh, to have and, and like they say and. And you stated in multiple like one of the most important decisions you can make as a woman is who to marry or you know, who to have as your partner. Um, so I guess the biggest decision

Speaker B: in life really, it's uh, exactly. It's a wellness decision and a business decision. Right. Like you're building, doesn't matter if you go into business with them or not. In a way you're building an entity together. So yeah, that is probably the most important decision in life.

Speaker A: I also want to ask you like, you know, having so many roles like being this sort of multi hyphenated person, you know, career and home, has it ever worked against you?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean you can come off as like not concentrated enough. Right. Because you're trying many, many different things and the context switch is real. Right. So it's not easy to do. And I've always struggled with this. I have very interested in a lot of things and I want to try a lot of things and at times I will bit off more than I can chew. But like the initiatives that I'm working on right now, now they've been in the works for years and uh, for a long time they were happening. I just wasn't talking about them or publicizing them or any of that. And when the kids were younger, I could do maybe like one coaching um, thing a week and that was it. Right. And I was just testing to make sure that I still enjoyed it and I was providing value. But yeah, you can look like are you doing anything right when you're doing five or seven things at the same time. Uh, and uh, it can be hard on like being able to dedicate enough time to all of it. I still think it's worth it and I think I'm at a stage in my career where I can do it because, um, I understand myself. I am a lot faster in making decisions because I've been in the industry for a while, right. So I can move faster. Um, and I'm able to handle it all right. But yeah, like some there I've had people that have said just pick one and go deep into that one. And that's fair. When you're building a new product, that is the thing you live by. Right? Like, you prioritize to the core thing, and you build that. I have chosen. I. I am. I'm full right now. I am not taking any more new experiments, I'm thinking, but I am not acting on anything more at the moment because my plate is. Is full. But, yeah, I. I still think when you look at the pros and cons, I still think there's more pros for me than there's cons. Uh, but I can definitely see it, how it might look distracted to people. Right. Or at times, I am a little tired. I'm like, okay, where was I? Which decision was I supposed to make?

Speaker A: I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure. I mean, perception wise, there can be that, and. But there's only, like, so much you can do about that. And at the same time, I can feel like you're so energized by, like, having all of these things. And that is really important because I'm a little bit kind of like you, where I like to have multiple things, and there's like, oh, you like to have all of these balls up in the air, like. And I've tried kind of going down to, like, maybe two things, and then it just gets like, it's.

Speaker B: It's.

Speaker A: It's not fun.

Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, we're. We're all different. Right? So for me, this works.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And that's great. I want to kind of touch upon, uh, we talked about this earlier a little bit, and I want to dig in on the financial, independent aspect of it as a woman. And I don't hear a lot of women talk about financial independence as much. And so how, like, what role does financial independence play in your choices that you make? And especially as a woman, like, how did you think about just even that phrase for yourself and what it means to you?

Speaker B: I've been always very driven by, I guess, stability. Not really. I'm, um, not looking to be rich and have a plane. I just want to be able to afford a good life, a healthy life, be able to eat healthy and go on a vacation or two a year. Like, that's what I'm looking for. And I don't want to be checking and thinking whether I can afford a flight this month or a vacation. Like, know that that is. That is good and it's covered for. And. And I've thought about it this way my whole life. I think my parents did A good job at uh, instilling that like the idea of building and saving and thinking about the future in us as little kids. But that like even when I moved here, I decided to study finance initially to understand the system in America because very different at the time I moved to the States, Albania was very much cash based. So none of these concepts really existed. So that's kind of where it started. And then as you learn more about the finance world and how works, you realize that there's a saying that says money makes money, right? So it's like if you are intentional about it and if you, you deploy it as a resource, then you can build your little empire. And that's like uh, it's shifted for me how, how important it's been in my life. So in my, in the early, in my early career it was all about getting the experience and that was what drove the jobs that I took. Traveling was very important for me at the time. So I was looking for jobs that create, uh, gave me the ability to learn something new and grow my career. But also travel. So I traveled when I was Expedia, I traveled a bunch when I was at, at Meta. So if uh, I was looking at a new opportunity. Finance, finance was important, but it wasn't at the top. It was learning and traveling. And as I grew more and as I started thinking about I need to settle down, I need to buy a home in the Bay Area, thinking about that financial part became even more important. To be clear, from the first dollar that I made, I've always stayed and I've always invested, right? But uh, it's just been how I think about money and how important it is have sort of shifted as I have grown. As I got closer to like, uh, I met Matt and we started talking about building a life together. I started thinking more about that, how we built that financial independence for us and obviously became one of the most important things to think about once I had kids, right. Because I want that for them. My parents gave what they could to me and they were able to like support me coming to the United States from a country like Albania and go to college here. And that only happened because they were very diligent and they always thought about how they built their little nest egg for their kids and I want to do that my children. So I think a little bit is just me. I've always been very driven by, by finance. I find it fascinating how if you make the right moves, you're going to end up in a very different place than if you didn't with the same salary. So like it's about how you use your resources. Um, it's an optimization problem at the end of the day. Um, so I've always been driven, driven by that from, from the beginning. And as I've learned more about different types of investment, so I invest a little bit in startups. I, we own um, a, um, small condo that I, that we Airbnb. So there's all of this different investment activities that um, have. I've started paying more attention to and financial independence has become even more important. I'm not there yet, um, but I'm working on it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And, and there's one thing is like, you know, you, like there's you uh, taking your own financial decisions. Right? That's part of financial independence. And then one is like how do you become financially independent? Where like you said earlier, I'm not working because I have to work, but I'm working because I want to work. And that's the second aspect of financial independence. And sometimes, especially when I talk to a lot of women and not to generalize, but there is this trend. Like a lot of times we will do a lot for our children or we won't think about doing something for the house or something, but we don't invest in ourselves as much as we might do for others around us or you know, make those financial decisions for ourselves versus others around us. And that is also sometimes that, you know, uh, uh, there's a difference that we see. And so how do you like, what do you wish women would understand more or understand earlier about finance or earning or income, um, whatever that might be, uh, in order to build like long term financial independence.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'll start with, I think knowledge is power. Right. So I'd say be curious about understanding at the end of the rules of the game again. Right. Like how finance works and what would set you up in a better M place if you make the right decisions early on? I would also say that we're just as smart and, and just as capable as all the guys. Uh, we just don't. To your point, we give so much to everybody else around us and we put ourselves sort of at the end. So to. At the risk of generalizing again, I think we need to be a little bit more selfish and um, like put some time away or a little budget away for us to help us grow. Uh, because at the end of the day, the better we are, the better our little tribe is. Right. So at the end of the day you're still doing something for the people you love most. But you're starting by enriching yourself, if you will. So I'd say always stay curious and curious and open and believe in yourself. It's easier said than done. And I have to say, probably half of the coaching I do and even interview coaching is helping. Especially women, not only, but especially women, like trust themselves and hear what I'm hearing. Like, a lot of times they're actually a lot better than they think they are. They just need a little bit of reassurance. So I don't know if that's, uh, related to our chromosomes or what, but it seems to be the case with, with women more. Right. Like, we overthink things. Um, and I just want you to think about the people in your career or in your group and know that the people that come off really smart, they're just been in a few more conversations than you. So they've experienced that thing before. Right. And then that becomes learned experience and then they show up in a different way. But if you were able to meet them 10 years ago at the stage you are at, uh, they would probably be very similar to you. Right. So. So, uh, it's important to not compare yourselves with someone that might have been in the game for a long time. And I think when you're a driven person, you tend to do that and that just works against you. It's good to know where people have achieved that can be an inspiration. But when you start comparing yourself, then you're just working against yourself. So don't compare yourself to anybody but yourself yesterday.

Speaker A: Yes, I think that's so important. Right. You're always, you can always be a better version of yourself and you can continue to get better. Uh, yeah, I think, I think it's, that's a great statement, like use, see somebody and be motivated by it. But, yeah, not to compare, but to kind of use it as maybe an ambition or a goal. Like, you know, some way to say, okay, you know, I could use this

Speaker B: data point, role model. Just a data point. Yeah, I could be that. Or I could be that.

Speaker A: Yeah, something like a role model or like, you know, this is a possibility. Like, because sometimes people need to know, oh, this is what good looks like, or this is what excellence looks like. And that's good. Um, but you're right, like, you know, even in my coaching experience, I see sometimes, you know, that a lot of it is around just self belief, self confidence, just, uh, you know, trusting yourself that I can, I can do this. And it goes in a lot of different Things it could be about interview or it could just be about a conversation or just could be about making a decision and just getting past that, that inertia, uh, of not doing something. I could go on and on and we could continue to talk for hours, I'm sure. Um, but I wanted to kind of wrap up with a couple of questions. One thing I wanted to ask you is what is something that you have had to unlearn over the years from a professional perspective?

Speaker B: Probably waterfall and building projects that way. I, I, I studied to get my PMP and I got my PMP certification and then that went out the window when I moved to California and started doing more agile development. So that is probably like the, the strongest like all these rules about planning out and completely out the window as far as I'm trying to think if there's, that's a really good question. Um, I think you unlearn and relearn and you kind of reshape and mold m things you've learned with every, every job a little bit going back to that, uh, the stricter you are and how you think things will get done, the more friction you'll find and fitting in a new environment. So as I said, I'm very much uh, rooted in like what, what drives me and then I, I have strong opinions, they're loosely held and I am here to change and mold with my environment. Um, so I, I can't think of anything else like super strong like that. I had completely relearned. But I feel like I show up very differently in every organization I'm in and I think about product a little bit differently. At the core it's all about understanding your user and finding the solution for them. Right. But how you go about it, the techniques you use. Building product in B2B is very different than building product in B2C. Right. Like the way you think like that is all not really unlearned but molded really with every experience.

Speaker A: Yeah. Like continuously sort of morphing.

Speaker B: Yep. In true Agile you're always iterating.

Speaker A: Yeah. Now once you're agile then things are just constantly anyways like changing. That's a great thing. Yeah. Uh, waterfall versus like just. Yeah. Trying to unlearn that. That's uh, I'm sure like that has been uh, my very, very early kind of like goes back like takes me back many, many years as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. I don't think I ever used it. It's just the program that I did at Washu in project management was very much built on more waterfall. Uh, and As I actually started working in real life, I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen in six months. How am I supposed to be sure about what work item exactly we're going

Speaker A: to be doing this? Yeah.

Speaker B: So I never actually got to use it, but I took the test and I learned it all.

Speaker A: Yeah, I never got a pmp, but I, I mean I read through all of it. I didn't get the certification but I've used, I used it maybe like a couple of years in my early, like the first two or three years of being an engineer. Uh, and then we very quickly had switched over to agile to kind of. My last question, what would you tell someone in a high pressure role or who's like you know, in their career right now, who's curious about designing a more flexible self, uh, directed life or building a portfolio career like yours?

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for that. It's a great question. I would start with like thinking about your strategy, strengths and weaknesses, thinking about what drives you, sort of like analyzing the opportunities that you have. Right. Like the same way you do a SWOT analysis for your company, do a SWOT analysis for yourself. And then I'd look at very similar to building a product. I would look at where the market is at and uh, whether there are some of your skill sets that would be highly valuable. And then once you figure that out, that's basically the next step is figuring out the test.

Speaker A: Test.

Speaker B: Is there an easy way I can test my hypothesis out without actually leaving my job? Right. And see if there's any traction. And as you find a little bit of traction then it's a very personal decision on when you're ready to switch completely over if you ever are. Right. For some people, like right now I'm thinking about this as something that I do on top of my day to day job. Like I'm not at a place where I don't want to have a um, a full time job at least right now at this stage of life. But that way you are minimizing the risk right. By, by still being employed and uh, you're taking baby steps which makes it more approachable. And as you find attraction then you can lean in, you can put more energy, you can put more money to grow the brand, grow the business, whatever you end up doing. So very similar to how I think about building a product. You start with understanding yourself, understanding the market. Is there a problem out there that I am the best at solving? And you create a test around it and then you rinse and repeat until you hit goals.

Speaker A: That's wonderful. I think a lot of it can go back to how you think about building products, including building, like, you know, a business, building a career, solving a problem, be it, you know, a problem in business, be it, I'm sure, a problem in motherhood or with children. I'm sure you kind of take a product lens to it. Um, this has been a wonderful conversation, Yulia, and thank you so much for sharing, uh, your insights and, uh, advice with everybody.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Thank you again for inviting me. Uh, it was great to hang out after, after a little while and, um, I've loved the work that you've done so far and I hope this is helpful to your listeners.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you. Bye.

Speaker B: Bye.

Speaker A: If today's conversation sparked new ideas or challenged your perspective, I'd love to hear from you. I work with tech leaders and founders to tackle complex challenges, whether it's scaling teams, making high stakes decisions, or turning ambitious ideas into reality. If that sounds like something you are navigating, let's connect. Reach out via my website, thepriyankashinde.com or find me on LinkedIn.