Building Resilient Supply Chains in Manufacturing

Speaker A: Welcome to the Power of Data the podcast by Dun and Bradstreet. Data is everywhere and there is more created every second of every day. Join us to hear from leaders unlocking the value of data.

Speaker B: Welcome to the Power of Data podcast. Today we're joined by Professor Richard Wildin, obe, um, a renowned expert in supply chain resilience and a returner to the podcast. Um, for those who haven't heard you speak before Richard, do you mind giving us a bit of background introduction, Introduction to yourself. And I hope you're going to use the phrase pracademic in that.

Speaker A: Yeah, so I'm uh, Richard Wilding, um, I started my career in industry and then I accidentally fell into academia. So as you say this wonderful term, pracademic. So I'm very much a practitioner academic and actually I'm more I think practitioner than academic. So um, over the years um, I've been working with companies all around the world, uh, from the supply chain perspective. I've been the past chairman of the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport in the uk. I'm currently a trustee for the Chartered Institute of Procurement and Supply and also involved in some non exec director, uh, roles as well. So um, you know, I still try to keep in there and working with industry and seeing what's actually going on. So that's a big part of my background.

Speaker B: Great. And uh, we've kept you busy so far today as well.

Speaker A: Yes, it's been good. Um, you know we've been down here with you guys, uh, doing an event for manufacturing company is really talking about this whole area of uh, resilience and building supply chain resilience and some of the technologies which uh, are really coming in at the moment which are making such a difference in the way that we can view things and view the world as well.

Speaker B: Super. We'll get into that in a bit more detail shortly. Um, my first question today for you, um, it's been a busy few years, um, with the pandemic challenging uh, global supply chains, um, especially in manufacturing. I wondered if you would mind sharing your perspective on how recently um, recent developments have affected supply chain resilience in manufacturing sector.

Speaker A: Right. Well, I think it's interesting because if we go back to the old world that was in 2019, wasn't very long ago. So we really had this old world of where things were reasonably stable, 2020 and the pandemic actually kicked in. And uh, one of the key things which was really taking place then was things were relatively stable. Supply chain risk management, supply chain risk and Vulnerability wasn't really talked about. I mean, my first professorship at Cranfield was Professor of supply chain Risk Management. And in fact, nobody really knew what it was. This was back in, um, it would have been about, uh, yeah, 2000, 2005 or something like that.

Speaker B: Donate yourself to it.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I had this wonderful title, professor of Supply Chain Risk Management. That title was changed to professor of Supply Chain Strategy. Now the point is, if you get your supply chain strategy right, you will be covering off the risk management. And that's important thing to think. That's foundational. You've got to understand the supply chain strategy. So I had this new title and then of course Covid came along and everybody wanted to talk to me again about risk management. And I think, you know, it's come of age. Supply chain risk management has very much come of age. But the point is, work on this has been going back in academia and within those more top tier companies, I would argue for many years. So if we look at some of the roots of modern day, uh, supply chain resilience and supply chain risk management, really, you could argue it goes back to some of the work which was done in the 1950s. So there's a lot of this is not new stuff. And I think that that's the important thing. There's been lots of lessons we've been able to sort of learn and think about. But the problem is practitioners in the old world, it wasn't really seen to be something which was really needed. There were a few, you know, big disruptions that occurred. 9, 11 foot and mouth. Um, you know, there might be floods, there might be storms which would create things, but these black swan events didn't come in flops. And of course what happened was, was that in good old 2020, uh, you know, Covid came and that just smashed supply chains as we knew it. Now the downside was, of course, that it really disrupted everything. But I think one of the things which has come out of that is that people all of a sudden started to realize supply chain resilience, managing supply chain risks, uh, appropriately. This is actually a source of competitive advantage. So what we can now do is if we're good at this, actually it makes our organization stronger and then we can forward. And I think that that's been one of the big changes that we've started to see, that this isn't something that you just do and try and insure against. It's something that actually, you know, if we go about it in the right way, uh, this can sustain our competitive Advantage. And that's really what we're starting to see now.

Speaker B: That's what we're starting to see. And in, in the preparations for this interview, we spoke about supply chain resilience. And you mentioned a new term, a new phrase. Um, I don't know if you wanted to share that.

Speaker A: Yeah, so, so if we look at supp. Resilience, supply chain resilience is all really around, um, what we would say is prepare. So we need preparation, respond and recover. And I think part of the issue is, is really what we're saying is we, we're going to have to recover to where we were before. So Covid comes along, everything's disrupted, um, and then three years later we're back to where we were in 2019. That's not really what we would like to happen, actually. What we would like is us to move forward and beyond that. And so one of the terms which is actually being talked about, um, is this concept of the anti fragile supply chain. So, you know, there's various people who started looking at this. It was a philosophical idea. Um, a guy called Sean Cooley, um, has, you know, he's been sort of like, you know, looking at this concept and. But all of a sudden we start to see that this is something which is becoming really, really important in terms of the way that things move forward. Now what anti fragility is talking about is you get stronger after you've had a disruption. So natural systems are, uh, generally antifragile. So our bodies are antifragile. For example, we have spare capacity and spare resources there. You know, you have two kidneys, you know, one can go down, you've got another one spare, you've got two lungs. But also, if you think about it, uh, when you, you know, go to the gym, not that I've been for a long time, but you go to the gym and you work out, you break muscle fibers. But then what happens is, is you become stronger afterwards. And really what we've got to get is those same principles embedded in supply chains. We talk about this antifragile, uh, supply chain. So then you actually go through more of a cycle of, yes, we need to prepare, we then need to respond, we need to recover. So that's our resilience bit. But then the antifragile bit is we need to sort of more what's actually been going on. So we want to be able to relearn, relaunch, for example. Then we want to actually re engineer the supply chains.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And then that's going to Enable us to sort of reinvigorate them and move into the future. So that's really where antifragile is going. So it's after these disruptions we can be stronger, be stronger, be stronger afterwards.

Speaker B: I guess the example that I can think of is, is, is the typical working practice that we have. Everybody before pandemic, uh, nine to five in the office. Um, pandemic happens, we work from home, we realise that we can survive and potentially thrive in our roles at home. Um, and then we return back to the office in a slightly different way and form. Um, in the context of supply chain, how have you seen, um, have you got any examples that you would point to of organizations that have kind of learned and become stronger as a result of the pandemic?

Speaker A: I, uh, think there's lots of organizations, ones that we're seeing now who have become, if you like, stronger, have been sort of focusing on the supply chain and seeing where the disruption. So we can look at. There's a whole variety. You know, if you're looking at some of the big electronics companies or the big shipping companies and even apparel companies, what they're starting to learn from this is, is you can't. You know, we say in the UK you have all your eggs in one basket.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, so this is driving us into a form of what we call supply chain diversification. And supply chain diversification is basically saying that we need to start thinking more about multi shoring. And you know, we've been talking about this for a long time, really since, since 2020. Um, because what people realize was we're all doing multi sourcing. But the problem is if you've got all your suppliers in the same location, it makes no difference, you know, if the whole of the north of Italy's shut down. Um, we're not going to get stuff out. So we need to start thinking about multi shoring. So can I have suppliers in Europe, can I have suppliers in Asia, can I have supp. Suppliers in Africa, Can I have suppliers in, um, uh, you know, South America and so on and so forth? That presents a number of challenges because as procurement teams, for example, we've got to be able to manage that and understand the capability in all those parts of the world. So you've got that area, the multi shoring side. The other dimension, of course then is actually we're having to think about multiple routes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, you know, if we're totally dependent on the Suez Canal, as many people have discovered recently, um, you know, all of a sudden you're just Dependent on that particular route. If that route gets blocked, it's highly disruptive. So have we got the models in place and run scenarios of taking it around the Oak of Africa, bringing it in from a different location here and so on and so forth and understanding the cost. But also it's not just about it all being on a ship. Yeah, it. Can we also start experimenting around, well, can I use trains? Can I use, you know, you know, think about land, different modes of transport on land. What about different uh, you know, well, I could use land, but I could use air and all these different things. And this is the complexity because then what you're having to deal with is these three dimensions of, you know, what type of um, M. How am I going to move the stuff, you know, what type of vehicle or how am I going to move it, um, what route am I going to take? Yeah, but also where am I going to source it from? And you've got to understand the cost to serve. Yeah. And it really is about that, that understanding that cost serve because all those different scenarios which come about um, will have different cost implications. And the problem with those different cost implications is you've got to know what's going on otherwise you can lose money.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: And you cannot do that, I would argue on your own, on an Excel spreadsheet. This is where things like AI, big data analytics and everything else starts come into play.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker A: And it's not just, you know, we've got to think also take it one step further. We have to think about, yes, the economics cost to serve, but what about the carbon to serve or the environmental impact of what we're doing? And also what about the social impact of what we're doing as well? And that's what we're starting to see through, you know, having to look at the supply chain through a esg, uh, lens.

Speaker B: Esg, absolutely. We'll come on to ESG in a few moments time. One of the points that I heard you make online previously was when you think about supply chain resilience, you think of it through three paradigms. Planet, people and profit. I think you just touched on that. Do you want to expand on what you mean by the three P's Right.

Speaker A: So if you've got uh, the planet of course is very much the environmental side people is the social implications of our supply chains. Now of course one of the obvious things is, is the whole issue of say modern day slavery and so on and so forth, you know, exploitative labor practices, which is absolutely critical. And um, you know don't you know, we're sitting here in London. We're probably not more than a few hundred meters away from an environment potentially where that is taking place. It is happening everywhere, is happening in the United Kingdom. So we really need to make sure that, you know, exploitative labor practice and everything else dealt with. So. And um, then we've got the economic sustainability as well. And part of the pressures of this is, you know, if you want things really cheap, um, that can put these other areas under pressure. So I want something really cheap. Can mean that people start taking shortcuts and it starts to have an impact on our, ah, our people and our social side. And then it can also have an impact on the environmental side. But more importantly, if we start to think about the global supply chain in terms of the people planet and uh, you know, the profits that we're having to make, um, you know, it becomes incredibly important to actually understand and have transparency of what's happening on, happening on all those various things. Legislation which has come out in recent years, it's basically mean as directors are being held responsible for that. So you can't really turn around anymore and just say, well, you know, um, I don't know about it, so it doesn't matter. Yeah, we have to more or less be proactive in looking at ways of, of managing it. And that becomes quite important, you know, because a decision which I might make on carbon dioxide. So I suddenly say, I mean, classic examples are I'm not going to fly FL for Valentine's Day in from Africa, you know. And uh, so, you know, we'll be really environmental and we won't have, you know, that part of it. We'll grow it more locally, you know, maybe in a greenhouse which is being heated. Well, hang on a minute. There's an environmental impact of that. But the point is, is that if you do that, what about the community whose sole business is growing roses for Valentine's Day in say, a particular region of Africa.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Or Asia. And so often, you know, these are complicated decisions that need to be made.

Speaker B: The ripple effect.

Speaker A: That's right. So we can end up in a situation where we do the right thing for the environment, but then we're basically creating a real issue for society and people. You know, we do the right thing for profits for our shareholders, but then that's creating an impact elsewhere. So understanding those relationships. Yeah, and being sort of pragmatic and sort of having to work together. You know, first rule of supply chain management is it's the management of relationships. It's about managing relationships and collaborating across the supply chain. You can't do this on your own. You need to work with various people to make it work. And that's the key thing because if you're able to work across the supply chain, then you're going to have a better chance of dealing with people, plan it and profits.

Speaker B: Thank you. The next thing I wanted to delve into in a bit more detail was how AI is transforming the manufacturing landscape. And I wanted to understand from your perspective what you see as the big shift that technology is making to the manufacturing sector. Uh, and what you're hearing from your peers. Certainly from our perspective, we're hearing that to have an, uh, effective AI strategy, you've got to have an effective data strategy. But I'm really interested to hear what a professor's hearing.

Speaker A: Right, so. So I mean, artificial intelligence, it is moving incredibly quickly and there's lots of debate about it. But really, in a way, what we have to also recognize is, is that it's that augmented intelligence, you know, I quite. When we talk about AI, what are we really talking about? And yes, there is some really clever stuff which we're doing, but the stuff which is very much applicable is, is how can we actually get. Get data in a format that is accessible to us. And we've been trying this for years. You know, we've had all these, um, you know, fantastic control towers presenting the information and so on and so forth. But I think what, you know, some of the artificial intelligence and that learning, you know, the machine learning and so on and so forth is. Is. I mean, it's a whole broad subject. I think this is the important thing to realize, you know, there's no way we're going to be able to sort of deal with every aspect of AI in manufacturing as we're talking. But, um, m know, um, um. One of the examples I quite like to just go back and. Which is very, I guess, primitive AI, but it's still being used, is rpa, Robot Process Automation. You know, it's. And really a lot of that was just put getting little equations in place which, you know, RPA in its simplest form is. I've got two spreadsheets and I'll build a little macro which joins it together. Yeah, what you're trying to do there, the important thing is take the robot out of the human. So if you're doing a task which you're having to repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat, you know, effectively you as a human are just becoming a robot. So how can we take the robot out of the human and then enable, you know, the, the computer or whatever else it is to actually do that particular task. So that's going back to this augmented intelligence. Because what we want to be able to use is use the skills that we have as humans on, if you like those more value adding, uh, activ. So this is where I think that, you know, we're starting to see in, from an AI perspective in manufacturing is, is you know, all those things where effectively we're going through repetitive things and we're not learning because, you know, part of it is, is, you know, we often talk about, you know, the um, you know, the corporate memory of a business. Um, it's great for me, um, because I'll get invited back to the same businesses, um, you know, every few years and they'll say we're doing this particular project and I'm going, but isn't that the same project that you did about five or six years ago? And you sort of share it with them and everybody looks at you, amazed. Oh, right. Well we, we didn't know about that. Can you help us again do this? Um, you know, great for me, as I said. But what's happened is, is all that learning which was, was in the business, that corporate memory just been lost.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Now the nice thing about you know, AI is it doesn't forget, right? It doesn't forget. It keeps on relearning and everything else, which actually then gives us some really exciting ways of moving forward. So if we're looking at, you know, the, the decision making side of things, you can have the computer making a suggestion on the um, decision. You can then as some software which is being used at the moment enables you to do is you can, as a manager you can say, I reject that decision. But you write the reason why, you modify this decision and you write the reason why or you accept the decision. And what companies are starting to find is, is that, you know, say all of a sudden you get to a point where 70% of the decisions are accepted. Well, as soon as you get to that point, you may as well just let the computer do it all because you're only wrong a few times. And as long as that's not too expensive, then don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah, you know, allow your, uh, allow people to do things differently. So I think that this is, you know, this is part of it. Uh, there's lots of, you know, talk about real time as well. Real, you know, real time processing, real time, you know, trans on my supply chain and I think a challenge we do need to think about is do we really need that? Because going back to the environment that uses an awful lot of computing power. Right. Uh, still, you know, you might find that that information is fine if I have it once a week up to date.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: In one batch, you know, that is enough for making the decisions in that in other environments you need it on a minute by minute basis. But just being pragmatic and thinking about what do I really need this, know how often do I need it, do I really need it that real time? Because there's massive implications in terms of the data, sensors, the uh, you know, uh, just running all this, you know, that we've got to actually reflect on that.

Speaker B: Well, more insight means that you ultimately need to have somebody to be able to action that insight in the first instance. Which brings me nicely on to the next question I have for you, which is over the course of your career, um, can you think of any examples where you've, you've used data to effectively enhance or improve or make some, some informed decisions around, around supply chain?

Speaker A: Well, I mean I, I think we, if we're looking at um, looking at supply chains from, you know, really I, I can go back for years because this has been one of the things that people are doing. So if you're looking at supply chain, you're just looking at inventory management, inventory fluctuations, demand management. Um, you know the, these have been the, the foundations of things like materials requirements planning and manufacturing resources planning within actual manufacturing environments. They're really, really important. Then what's happened is it's evolved, you know, because you used to have finite scheduling, right? So finite scheduling, what does that mean? We just plan the usage of that thing up to a certain limit. Uh now we do it every day now sadly with electronic diaries. We do this extremely efficiently on our own lives that we plan all these meetings in until the whole completely blocked out and then there's no more room. Well, we used to do that on machinery. The problem is in doing that on, you know, if you're building schedules, was the amount of computing power it actually took. Yeah, uh, massive amounts of computing power. So all of a sudden now computing power you could say is relatively cheap. And we were able to actually solve those if like problems and plan things in a lot more detail. And that's been one of the big things that I've seen over my career thinking about cost to search serve. So cost to serve, you know, if you've got, I don't know, 100,000 customers and then you've got, you know, a few, you know, few hundred thousand products or something. You're moving through the supply chain. You end up with a matrix which is a hundred thousand by a hundred thousand. Yeah, there's a lot of boxes in there. I can't quite do the calculation in my head. I'm sure it's pretty simple calculation, but

Speaker B: it's one of those things and you've

Speaker A: got to look at, you know, how much does it cost me to take that, that, that person to there and everything else. It was virtually impossible to do that. And we're talking only 20. That was virtually impossible to do. Now we have in process, um, you know, sorry, uh, in memory processing. And that of course means that we can do some of these incredibly difficult things. So the technology, I would say sounds awful. We're not really doing anything new. We've just got the technology which facilitates us to do what we wanted to do years ago, but we couldn't really do it in some situations.

Speaker B: Got you.

Speaker A: Yeah. But then we've got not. The technology is enabling us to do some very new stuff. Uh, you know, some of the uh, classic AI we're finding of, you know, just being able to data mine things and you know, get new insights so quickly. It's ridiculous. You know, it is, it is crazy. You know, chat gbt, ask it a question and see what comes out. And what it's done is it's mined all the knowledge on a particular topic which is freely available.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's pulled it, then it's presenting it to you within a couple of seconds.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think the interesting place to get to will be where not only are we able to ask a question and get the answers that we want real time, it'll be then when the machines are able to pose the next question. The things that we haven't even considered, um, that will be the real tipping point where I think we'll start to

Speaker A: see eyes, the frightening reality.

Speaker B: Who knows? Um, thank you for that. That was really help. Um, the next thing I wanted to pick up was, um, you made a very interesting quote, um, uh, some time back now. But bear with me as I paraphrase it as best I can. Competition, um, in the future is not between individual companies but between the supply chains that they are part of. Um, and I guess I wanted to use that to frame the question is how do you see supply chains being a competitive advantage in the future?

Speaker A: Right. Well, I mean that goes about. If you look at the individual unit, uh, we see it very much within the supply Chain context that if we have a disruption in the supply chain, our organization can be taken out not by our own fault but by other things which are taking place around the supply chain. So we can't anymore think of ourselves being, well we're fine, we've got everything covered off unless we're totally vertically integrated and so on and so forth. And some companies have made the decision to do that over the years. You know, they've decided that uh, you know, from a risk perspective we're going to cover it all off. So if I'm thinking about some food supply chains, they've decided, right, we're not going to, you know, have a, have a structured supply chain. We're just going to own everything from, you know, basically from field, uh, you know, fields farms right through to the store even so that they can cover that off. But I think the key thing about this is, is that you have to then start to think about the extended supply chain. One of the things that we've been talking about this morning during the presentations is we now have the technology on freely available data, uh, and this is something Winched and Bradstreet are doing and really working on and some great moves forward in this area. Shipping data. Every single shipping transaction has a code attached to it so we can take that data and we know where things are moving from where to. We also have you know, details on individual companies and, and you know, who, who owns what and so on and so forth. So what you're able to very rapidly do is to see the extended supply chain not just down to the first tier, but down even to the third tier. Now of course when you start going down to the, you know, might say well we've got 100 first tier suppliers. Well you go to the second tier and you've, you know, you multiply that by 10, you go to the third tier and it, it just starts to go exponen having to touch on a lot of things. But this becomes really important because you know, if we're starting to look at supply chains and we want to see where for example we might be infringing, I don't know, tariffs or we might be infringing, um, you know, modern day slavery or there might be risk in particular areas or we've had floods recently in Europe. Are any of our suppliers or their supplier, supplier impacted by this? Because that could actually impact us at a later time. Now you know, it's been very obvious with certain big disruptions which occur like you know, I don't know, a big earthquake in Japan, it disrupts everything and then we know we're going to get hit in the future. But if you've got a small third tier supplier who actually might be supplying a load of your second tier suppliers, can you get transparency of that? Yeah, and actually now we can. And this is something which is really recent. So you know, all of a sudden using publicly available data which is out there, we can actually start pulling that in and uh, start to really find out what's going on. So once again now very much competition is not between individual companies but it's between the supply chains they're part of. We can take that data, we can make our supply chains more resilient.

Speaker B: Yeah, great, great. It's a fantastic topic. Um, I've got a real life example. I used to work with ah, a car manufacturer and at one point the production line stopped for um, a couple of days. Not because there was any disruption to their immediate supply chain but because the company that was making the toolboxes was a secondary or tertiary supplier and their machinery had broken down because they hadn't paid for the servicing model on that piece of machinery. Now because these toolkits couldn't be put into the cars on the production line, they couldn't ship any of, of the cars out of the, out of the, out of the factory. It cost them m, hundreds of thousands if not millions of pounds in disruption because a supplier that was third tier down the chain um, had some financial difficulty that they weren't aware of. So it's real life. Absolutely.

Speaker A: And you know, I mean there's lots of classic examples. Another one on, um, it was a black paint pigment, um, one source of it in the world. Nobody knew this, this is a few years ago. And um, you know, so you say oh well I'll go. Of the big paint manufacturers you're thinking, well I'm, I'm multi sourcing here. You know, I'm, I'm buying from about four different major paint companies globally. Turned out all the pigment was coming from one tiny little supplier. That one got taken out and nobody could supply anything, you know, anything black

Speaker B: for any period of time.

Speaker A: Anything black, yeah, you know, you could have it any color but not black. So Ford. So yeah, so yeah, so it was um, you know, these are examples that we continue to see taking place, continue to see. And I think that this is the thing now because yes, we can now get down to you know, that third tier and start to actually understand some of the things which are going on. You know you, you also find things where you you find that that third tier, they're supplying all your competitors and you and probably some uh, other, other places as well. So that starts to give you insights. But we can also use this uh, information in a very positive way as well. Because what we can start to say is, is questions like right, I want to bring in, I don't know, um, fast fashion capability into my engineering supply chain. So are there suppliers who also supply fast fashion with various things? They might be a bit more expensive, but if I work with them, some of that knowledge and innovation I could potentially bring into my supply chain. Yeah, so it's not so, you know, it's not just about that physical product. It's also about the know how the innovation and the different ways of thinking, that diversity of thought that we want to encourage. So sometimes it might be worth paying a little bit more to work with somebody who doesn't normally supply your sector. Uh, why? Because they'll bring something new in. Absolutely. And then, you know, if we can bring in that innovation that enables us to sustain our competitive, sustain our advantage.

Speaker B: Exactly. Back to that planet. People and profit. That uh, dynamic is ever present. And um, so onto my next topic. Um, I wanted to delve into the hot topic of ESG and the recent guidelines that ah, are starting to impact the manufacturing sector. What um, do you see happening over the next 12 to 18 months? And the follow on question for that is, do you see the EU regulation starting to affect the uk?

Speaker A: Yeah, well I think one of the key things we're starting to find is, is that all these things we need to recognize, you know, the global legislation which is taking place and really I think as organizations we, if at all possible we need to go to the highest level. Uh, is it. I always sort of reflect on this because um, if we think about cars, all right, you know, you have the Euro ncap, you also have an American standards for crash testing. You also, you know, every nation has their own standard for crash test testing. There are certain manufacturers who basically just produce to the highest level. What they want to do is to have a vehicle which is designed for a global market and it'll meet all those impact tests wherever they are in the world. Okay. And I think that one of the key things that we need to start thinking about is designing our supply chains from an ESG perspective so they will fulfill, fulfill all those requirements globally, not just in our uh, particular area, which really picks up onto your next thing. So if we've got legislation which is taking place in Europe, the likelihood is, is that organizations within the United Kingdom or even America, you know, if they want to do it, are going to have to be aligned, uh, with that. What you have to hope is that they have similar principles. You know, at the end of the day, you know, if you're looking at say car, you know, um, crashing cars, you know, so, so, you know, our global cars, the impact test, you know, some of them will say you need to go into a telegraph pole or something, you know, like on that 30% of it. Or some, some will say you need to have a go into a telegraph pole sideways. It's still a telegraph poll. Right. But we've just got to make sure that we have things sort of adapted to that environment so we can see them. So what I, I think is going to happen is there will become more a standardization in these things over time. We've seen this in lots of other areas. You know, if we're thinking about shipping data, uh, um, the stuff we get audited on in other areas, it takes a while but things slowly align and we'll get, you know, there might be some strange little nuances depending on where we're dealing with things, but they will align. So that in terms of esg, I think is going to happen. So what I recommend to companies is you need to be fully aware of what's going on, um, and start planning that. You need to have, you know, you obey, uh, the legislation, whatever, wherever it's coming from, all the guidelines which are coming from whichever place. Because we've got to start thinking about, you know, sustainability and the environmental sustainability, particularly because this is starting to cost us money and it is going to, starting to impact our business. You cannot sustain your competitive advantage if all of a sudden all your customers, customers are washed ah, away or, or something else. What can we do to support that challenge to you know, uh, you know, just slow climate change and manage these things and so on and so forth. Of course you've got the societal side as well. You know, what's going on in terms of exploitative labor and yeah, all that side of stuff. And we've just got to look at the governance as well. So how can we support our supply chain partners in being able to do this? It's going back to that term of can we collaborate, operate great.

Speaker B: I think I absolutely agree with you. I think um, it would be remiss of any organization in the UK to not think that regulation that has fallen, taken, starting to have teeth in Europe isn't going to affect us in the uk. Um, and adopting best practice should be what we're promoting. Um, my final question for you today is really looking back and trying to give some advice to those people that are still in role and working in manufacturing. Manufacturing today. So, uh, my question is, what advice would you give to manufacturing leaders who are looking to strengthen their supply chains in today's volatile environment?

Speaker A: Right. I think my first bit of advice is you have to go to the customer. Okay. Understand what is really driving value for the customer. That might mean you're going to have to talk to your colleagues and other parts of your business, but you've got to have clarity on what is driving value. And.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Because everything you do in manufacturing, everything you do, wherever you are in the business, it needs to be driven by some value being created. The problem is, is often we lose sight of that in the, you know, the firefighting of the day. Right. We start to forget about what we're really here for. So I think that's one of my first things is, and I have to remind myself is, you know, what's going on, going on. How are our customers changing and evolving? What are the types of things they're wanting? So regularly going through and make sure you're capturing that data and understanding what's actually happening on some, uh, you know, uh, there's probably some lessons there, I think, from maybe some of the, you know, the new kids on the block in the terms of fast fashion and so on and so forth because they are just sort of taking information all the time of what is really meaningful, literally, and they're turning things around in a few days. It's just crazy. You know, some of the things which are actually taking place in that area because they're understanding what the customer wants. And you know, I always say is if I understand what is creating value for a customer, I can design a supply chain to deliver that value. Right. That will have implications as well for the way I manufacture, the way I serve customers and so on and so forth. So I think that that becomes really important. So make sure you've got that clarity of the value.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Then the next thing is, is, ah, the big question is, do you know, you're a supply chain, what is it? You know, so if you're sitting there in manufacturing, you haven't got a clue where things are coming from. Um, you know, that can be quite dangerous. And so therefore, you know, just start having an understanding of that extended supply chain. Start to map it if at all possible. You know, those are the, you know, those are the starting blocks for what's actually going on so understand where things are coming from, from which routes they're taking. You know, are you multi shoring? Start asking some of these questions which might mean you in manufacturing having to talk with, you know, more closely with your procurement teams. Now this is a process we all need to work together. You know, I mean I've got uh, you know, on LinkedIn learning now, this little, little course called the uh, Supply Chain Fundamentals Risk and resilience. Nearly 45,000 learners have been through that little course. Oh, uh, wow. And, but I actually say to people, look, everybody in the business should be doing this. M. Mhm. Well why? Because, you know, you think about it, we sit in our company as when I was at the university, I have to do online diversity training and fire extinguisher training, you know, fire courses and everything else. These are all dealing with risks within the business. But I would argue that some of the biggest risks we have nowadays are from external to the business. And it doesn't matter where you are in the business, whether you're in procurement, you're manufacturing, whether you're in the logistics area, even if you're just in, you know, your human resources area, everybody has an impact on the overall supply chain resilience and supply chain risk. So you know, total blatant promotion. Everybody should be doing my little course, you know, you know, 23 three minute little videos. Everybody should be doing it because, you know, just having that awareness within the business is just so important in being able to deal with some of these challenges which we haven't come into us and sustaining our uh, competitive advantage.

Speaker B: Advantage. Great. Richard, thank you so much for today. Um, it's been an absolute pleasure to meet you again. I wonder if you'll be the first person to do three powered data podcasts, um, in the future. Thank you so much for today.

Speaker A: It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Find out more about how Dun and Bradstreet can help your business be better. Contact us@marketinguknb.com and remember to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Google Podcasts.