Neurodiversity and barriers to full contribution in the workplace

Speaker A: Welcome to the Peak Performing Team, a podcast for business leaders that want to cultivate more innovation, productivity and well being on their teams, especially in the middle of chaotic times. Uh, this podcast features advice on getting the right people started right, fostering inclusive teamwork, preventing burnout, and so much more. So now let's join best selling author, organizational health and teamwork strategist, Faith Clark for this episode of the Peak Performing Team.

Speaker B: Hello everyone, and welcome to this episode. Today I'm sharing with you a conversation I had that was guided and curated by my friend Celeste Herron. We, uh, fundamentally spoke about, uh, the things that block full participation in the workplace, but we really went down the pathway of neurodiversity and neurodistinctiveness. When I work with teams, uh, part of what I'm constantly looking for is what are the things, uh, in the culture, in the workflow, in the process, in the systems, in the relationships that's blocking people from really showing up fully, from really being fully effective. And one of the biggest things that tends to be showing up everywhere across the board in the culture, in the systems, in the workflow and in the relationships, is the intolerance of difference. And so Celeste and I spent some time diving into where some of that comes from in our history a little bit and then into how we need to be shifting in the workplace, using neurodistinctiveness and neurodiversity as an example. But as you listen to, just think about any aspect of difference. It could be gender differences, racial issues, whatever it is that feels like it's relevant in your organization. Think about what are the things relevant to that issue that's blocking people from showing up fully. Enjoy the conversation. Um, Celeste is a brand strategist and brilliant at what she does. Her embodied brand framework helps people really show up as themselves and yet as the self that they want to see, um, in their brand. So with courage, with trust, with bravery, uh, I'd love you to just go take, check out her information in the show notes, um, and have the conversation with her about you fully embodying your brand.

Speaker C: Oh, Faith, it is such a pleasure to get to visit with you. You and I have had an opportunity to get to know each other over

Speaker D: the last couple of months.

Speaker C: While we have had conversations about organizational development, leadership development, and even branding and marketing, um, both in the online space as well as the internal marketing and culture building that companies do, that's such an important part of, um, of the foundation that they build before they express, uh, their branding and marketing externally. I'm really looking forward to just having this time to get to know you even better and to learn more about your work. I was just.

Speaker D: Can I just say I appreciate your willingness to interview me. Like, you suggested this as we were talking, one of those conversations, and I feel such gratitude for you. So I just wanted to say that to you again. Thank you.

Speaker C: Oh, you're welcome. Thank you. It's my pleasure. This is so exciting. Um, as I began to. As you and I began a conversation about marketing and branding, of course that always leads into who are you? What do you do and why do you do it? And, um, things like, what do you want to be known for? How do you want to be understood? Um, and it's through that conversation that I realized that I wanted to, um, to understand more about your work. And so I know that you're. That you are Faith Clark. And, you know, I've had an opportunity to look at your website. Um, but what I'm wondering is, is just for the benefit of people who are listening to us having this conversation who may not be, um, completely familiar with it, please share with me as if I were a stranger, because I love to hear your story.

Speaker D: It's all. I always feel such a pause whenever I'm asked what, who am I and what do I do? Um, professionally, I help organizations become more healthy by up leveling their processes and the work, the way their people work together. Um, and I think that. What does that mean? That means that I am super curious about all systems, but especially, especially human systems and how humans interact with each other and how we do that in ways that are productive and healthy and vibrant and how we do it in ways that limit, um, us and block us from being effective. And I think that the world we live in has so many old systems that we've taken on that. That limit us and block us from being healthy together. And that's just the general idea of humans in the world. And these things show up in the workplace. These things show up as we try to be at work, be effective, get stuff done. And I think there's a drive now to just do this better, to be healthier, to heal from some of the trauma that has been in the world, through colonialism, through slavery, through racism, through all these structures that have been unhealthy. So I step into the workspace, and I help leaders think about how we can be truly beautiful, um, and powerful and get the work done in super healthy ways. And part of the reason I do that is that I have two, um, I have three Kids, two maverick superhero types that are eclectic and would not fit into the typical workspace space. And then my oldest son with autism, who is a superhero in his own right, who definitely would need to be supported in multiple ways. And I started to ask myself the question, where would my kids work? And as a mommy, I'm thinking, how can I create more healthy workspaces so that humans, in all the ways that we can be human, show up and can work together in the boring side, I call that teamwork. Because people understand everybody has teams. So people working together, teams, how do we do that? Well, keep making our money and not consume people in the process, but actually energize and restore people in the process.

Speaker C: So when did you make the bridge between what you studied and the work that you're doing now?

Speaker D: That's a great question. When I started doing. I'm right now, um, wrapping up a PhD in Performance Psychology, um, for new Venture teams. And initially when I started this PhD, I decided I wanted to study women, um, who care for kids with complex needs and the stress levels that they deal with and how they're managing that. And as I was doing that work, that research, I was like, oh, that's too close. It was just too close to my own situation. And I was confronted with it. So I actually, I actually randomly chose the topic of teamwork. I was just like, ah, this is cool. Let's try it. And it took me a couple of years in the topic, enjoying it, to realize, oh, this is giving language to work. I already do. I already work with nonprofit teams. I didn't call it that. People would call me in to do professional development, to do workshop design, to do retreats, uh, to help, uh, the staff kind of figure something out to do strategic planning. And I realized that the things I was studying was the same things that I did in these contexts. And it unified my language and unified the way I talked about it. And so I was like, oh, I'm already studying that. God set it up. But, yeah, that was how I brought it together.

Speaker C: So whenever you're working within an organization, with a team, um, with a culture or community, like, what are some of the objectives that you're looking for? And how do you define success or measure whether or not those objectives have been met?

Speaker D: Well, typically, if somebody asks me to be in a community for some reason, there are a couple of pain points that they're asking me about. It might be faith. I don't think my team knows how to do X. Can you design a workshop on that or can you design a learning experience on that. And when they ask that question, I usually probe is it really that they don't know how to do X or is there something else? Because most problems that it looks like people don't know how to do, there's an environmental. Like there's an 80% chance this is something about systems and processes and culture that's blocking it versus the person doesn't know. Invariably inside that conversation we get to see that there may be aspects of communication, aspects of uh, strategy, aspects of values, aspects of just working people to the bone that's creating the problem that they think is just a learning problem. Just let's teach people this thing. I don't know if that makes it clear. So usually there's a problem. Yeah. And uh, it could be onboarding is usually another problem. Like how do we help people to really get there, it clear what the job is, or, you know, people are leaving a lot and it's uh, there's a mismatch between what they think they're coming in to do and then what they actually doing is causing them to leave. How do we bridge that gap? And then invariably comes back to there's an environmental piece that's either missing or just not concrete enough or that needs to be changed in some way to be made healthier.

Speaker C: So what you're saying is that there's the, there's the problem, there's what people think is the problem. There's what people think is the problem, there's the actual problem, and then sometimes there's the problem under the problem.

Speaker D: Right, right. Because the environment has multiple M symptoms that contribute to the problem. So there's always this question of, well, where do we intervene? Is this about leadership and the relationship between the leader and this person? Is this about this person's own management of themselves? Is this about the way the team is configured? It could be all of those pieces that's contributing to whatever it is, deadlines being missed or, um, uh, conflict on the team or something like that. And within that there is this culture that's facilitating all of these symptoms. And depending on how open the company is and how open the leaders are, that determines what's the easiest place to start this intervention to creates a better chance of it cascading into the other areas.

Speaker C: Just to put this into the conversation for, for a moment, how, like, how do you see neurodiversity or neurodistinction, both among the leadership as well as other members of the team that are, um, tasked with execution or tasked with Learning systems and processes. Um, where do you think that human, like neurodiversity or neurodistinction factors into some of the challenges that, um, happen inside of an organization?

Speaker D: I think generally speaking, we have inherited a way of doing business that says people need to fit into boxes. And although right now it's, you know, 2021 and we say no, we celebrate, you know, individual differences or whatever it is, we don't really. The way we work is this is the way you're supposed to be. And that's, that's, um, that's. That's not specific to neurodistinctiveness. That's, um, about everything. There is this idea of what professional worker is that many of us don't deviate from. So the moment a person's, quote, unquote, natural way in the world is different from that idea, which varies from organization to organization, um, we don't have good methods of coping with that. So in terms of neurodistinctiveness, I tell people that neurodiversity is just like biodiversity. In other words, all humans are different. We're not the same. It's not a monolith. Yes, we are. We have so much in common. And yet there is this wide range of differences, just normal. And then, um, characteristics like those you see with people with autism or ADHD or learning disabilities or dyslexia can be further more pronounced and need, whether more support or more understanding. So in the workspace, I think step one, if we can appreciate that we are bad at allowing people to be different, whatever. Different is just within the normal realm of difference. So why do we think, for example, that a team meeting should be only spoken, Somebody's speaking to you, and everybody's taking notes or whatever it is, the normal way of having a team meeting is what are all the different ways that we could have the same outcome based on how people are different? You know, just like based on people's preferences. That would be something that, if the company could answer that question or think about that, then they'd be more able to think about, oh, this person has autism, or this person has ADHD or whatever it is, and how do we factor that in? So I'm basically. I guess what I'm saying is that I've noticed people, uh, I can't integrate normal differences, quote, unquote, normal differences. So it's been very hard in the organizational space for people to understand that a person might have a lot of difficulty taking in information through errors.

Speaker C: As an example, do you think that just generally Speaking. We speak about the wider culture. We speak about Western culture and how we visualize work and do work in the Western culture. How aware do you think people are about, like, just, um, literacy, about where these ideas came from of how we do work, why our workdays are the length that they are, that we go to a place of work rather than working over here, that we have meetings the way that we have meetings. What do you think people's level of understanding is about that? Is it just like, Is it like just the, Is it something that's just. It's totally in the room but it's invisible? Or do you think that people are having greater awareness? Tell me about that a little bit.

Speaker D: Because it seems like there's a, uh, growing awareness. But like, awareness is the first step before we even can get to action, right? So I think people kind of are noticing that, wait, do we have to do it this way? And I think Covid helped us a lot with that because we had to change so fast and like, not to be out at work, that they have to figure so much out in such a little bit of time that then there's a question of, do we have to do it this way? But generally speaking, I think we're not really aware. And so we don't. We're not aware that because we don't know we are, um, in some ways abusing people who can't or who, who. It's very hard to fit into those ways because we think that, that those ways are just the normal way. We. So the lack of awareness, I guess what I'm saying is that the lack of awareness causes us to think that this is the normal way, the right way, the healthy way to do business or to do a meeting or whatever it is. And then when a human shows up and says, do I need to be here at 8 o' clock in the morning, we decide that that person is lazy as an example, because they don't fit in with the thing that we've set as norm. And a lot of that is we haven't explored why are we all here at 8:00'? Clock? Or better still, I tease people about this in the school system. Why did we start the school year in September and why are we off for the summer? And just like there isn't, um, enough interrogation to say, then next step is how can we change this to fit the world we currently live in?

Speaker C: So where, so where do a lot of these customs that become invisible power structures around the workplace, like, where do these customs and these assumptions Come from about the length of our work days, where we meet to work, um, how organizational hierarchy is created. Tell. Tell us a little bit about that.

Speaker D: I have my own opinions on that. I. I don't. I'm not going to make myself like a history, um, experts.

Speaker C: We just love your point of view.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think that anybody who has the power and anybody who holds the privilege has the ability to make their life center and the norm. And so the world that we've lived in has, has kind of underpinnings of colonialism and the patriarchy and industrial revolution structures that are primarily Eurocentric. That this is, this is the way we decided life has to be done. Everybody had to conform to that. Um, and then, you know, um, somebody said, for example, the school year, oh, well, you know, the harvest happens at this time, so school happens at that time. Somebody said it that way because of the way that life was at that time, whoever the power structures were. And understanding that, oh, that was based on who was in power, not what was for the common good, and understanding that we need to interrogate, then what is for the common good and how do we deconstruct who holds power so that we can, um, not center one set of people who are powerful. That kind of is a big deal. And I think there's a lot of, in our organizations right now, people who have power really deep down, uh, it's hard to let go of that power and to let go to notice privilege and to let go of it, to make sure that other people have, uh, the support they need to be able to work effectively.

Speaker C: Do you think that that's because people spend a lot of money on education, commitment to education, time spent in the workplace, transitions between different companies, always looking for that, upward mobility. And then when they move into a place of authority and power, it's this sense of, like, I worked really hard to get here. Like, I climbed, like, I climbed the ladder. In some ways, I am the ladder. You know, we all are the ladder. And so they come to a place where then they're like, looking around going, okay, wait, you mean now I have to question everything about how I got here and the fact that I, like I have any business being here, or maybe, or maybe I get to be here, but I have to be here completely differently than I was promised. What do you, like, what do you think about that?

Speaker D: The systems that we have right now kind of lull us into this idea that there's a formula to get the right answer. So you put in things and you get the right Answer. And these questions that you're asking and that we're talking about, there is no quick right answer. And so often when people are, uh, in places of power and they're saying, yes, I am open, I am woke, I am ready to be part of the change, and then you raise it, it's like, what's the answer? And our commitment to not making a mistake, our commitment to having the outcome look the way we want it to look and so on, really blocks us from being able to be instruments of change, I think. Yeah, there are people who, who, you know, are saying, yes, I should hold on to my power. I've worked very hard to be here and I don't want to disrupt that. But lots and lots of people are there. What's the answer to this? This is, you know, I don't know. And pursuing what the answer could be could disrupt our bottom line. It could disrupt our profitability. I mean, if we layer in supports for people with, uh, disabilities, um, more than we do right now, which is a wheelchair ramp and the larger bathroom, if we actually layer in true support for people with disabilities, that's going to cost us money. What does that mean in terms of our profit structure? What does that mean in terms of how we do workflow? If we support somebody who cannot be here at nine o' clock of the way either their body works or anything to do with that, what does that mean for the way our workday is? And we could lose money just figuring that out over the next five years. So there's a lot of fear because the system as it is has worked, it's produced money. And, uh, I said to people a lot, yes, slavery was cheaper than not having slaves. So yes, there is, uh, all of this retrofitting has a financial piece. Yeah. But there's an ethical issue here. You know, there's a moral question, uh, how do we live as humans together?

Speaker C: And so as people like, you know, as you see people in leadership and as the culture of workplaces is changing and certainly, you know, during the year 2020 and 2021, when, um, with a health pandemic really force the issue about examining so many things that we take for granted about our work, our workplaces, and, and, and how we do work, what are the things? If, Are there any. Here's the, I think, here's the question I want to put to you. Uh, is there, do you see, like, opportunity behind the fear? Like, are there things that people are afraid of will happen, but if they were to happen, then it's like, yes, There will be change, maybe it will be uncomfortable, but there's this huge opportunity that opens up behind when you move past the fear.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think cookie cutter solutions, uh, it's like the opportunity that we got moving from complete factory models to this kind of more. We have these little bougie eclectic shops that we used to have back in the day. Then we had the whole factory situation and now we're getting back to or moving forward to more eclectic, distinctive ways, uh, of expressing whatever products and services in the business space. I think it's the same thing in terms of organizations that the disruption creates something new. And we see that all the time in nature. Like you have some big terrible thing, it looks terrible, it happens. There's horrific experience, so it seems. And then there is this new thing that's birthed from it. And as a human race, we've done that so many, many times. One of the opportunities that I see coming out of this is that the spectrum of being human showing up in the workplace provides um, breakthroughs in terms of the mental health crisis that we're experiencing right now as a world. Also provides um, more innovation in design of products. More innovation and distinct and decision making that then makes us just more robust. Right. Because that's the thing that difference creates. It creates like a tighter weave because of different types of things when interacting together. It's like, ah, this thing can handle more. And I think that we have an opportunity to see, um, companies just be more adept at responding to the stuff that comes their way because they're no longer just made out of the same structure that all the other companies are made up and have the benefit of different minds working together.

Speaker C: Tell me, um, an example that you've had an opportunity to witness in a project, a company or a partner that you've worked with.

Speaker D: There's um, I'm thinking about the training session that I was in with a group of teaching artists that decided they wanted to work with kids with autism. Uh, in the process of figuring out how to do improv theater with kids with autism, they did so much introspection into their own, uh, ways of being different that they became tuned into the people with autism, but also tuned into each other in, in really powerful and interesting ways. And that was important because as a group of teaching artists, nobody there was like full time. So they're all super part time and constantly changing their occupation. So it wasn't a team that was just static, but the team built the ability to quickly see and understand difference, which increased their own capacity to respond to changes in their own team and their own robustness, um, shifted and they became able to take a new person. Other person moved out. An artist went off on Broadway, another artist came back, and it was interesting. And then in terms of changing the demographic that they were serving, they were able to shift and like, oh, what if we, um, added in supporting people who are deaf and they were able to just be agile in a way. I think that was really remarkable. By wanting to serve difference and then embracing their own difference in the process, um, and building those skills. That's one of them that comes to mind.

Speaker C: That's such a. That's such a. That's such a really cool story. Um, and then if. And then, I mean, do you feel like people who are in the creative. You know, they say by they. I mean, it's just like. Like, this is. These are the stories. Like, these are the stories that just move around, right? They're the stories we tell each other, the stories we tell ourselves. You know, that, like, the person who's very creative is more likely to be neurodiverse. And by that we're talking about, you know, autism or tendency towards autism, adhd. Tendency towards adhd, you know, like, that they might struggle to, like, organize themselves, or they're just like, organize their. You know, they organize themselves differently. Do you, like. Did you see that? Do you do. Is that something that you see, like, in the organization that you worked with?

Speaker D: I didn't see. Um, right now we have a mushrooming of diagnoses of ADD and adhd. So maybe at that point in time, it wasn't as much about more people having diagnoses as much as more people in the art space, uh, have already acknowledged, uh, their willingness to be different. Whereas many people who move into the organizational space space did that sometimes at the expense of their own difference. They were. They were willing to, uh, shape um, themselves to fit into the organizational space. Whereas more artists have, um, been saying, we want to express the way that we are. And yeah, in theater, you. You do it by following the script and stuff. There's still some amount of conformity. So I found a greater appreciation for difference, which means a greater. Greater willingness to own whatever the difference might be, um, than we see in the, um, in a typical workplace. But funnily enough, it's showing up m. More. The more we look at difference as value versus difference as disability, then the more people in the organizational space are now owning that. So then there's a lot of, uh, women, um, with autism who get the autism diagnosis at a later stage in leadership and being willing to acknowledge that and work through that as well. As, you know, as you and I have spoken about before, ADD and ADHD showing up more commonly than we saw it before,

Speaker C: do you think that as more people begin to step into the conversation about neurodiversity and say, this is me, I think that this has been me my whole life. I've really just kept it really compartmentalized, or I have figured out, you know, elaborate coping mechanisms that I do behind the scenes that everyone around me doesn't know, especially like, whether it's my boss, the people that I lead, or my other coworkers. Like, as more people are stepping into the conversation and starting to first self identify as potentially being neurodiverse, and then, you know, even going forward and getting an official diagnosis, which in some ways can be so helpful, and then in other ways that just becomes a pathology to carry, um, which can be disempowering to people. But I think what I'm wondering is, is do you think that, like, as a, again, as a culture, we're starting to just have like, this conversation that almost everyone is now participating in about neurodiversity? Is it more safe, uh, to be neurodiverse, to be someone who has a label, a diagnosis in the workspace? Is it safer?

Speaker D: Um, I don't think it's necessarily safer yet, but I do think that it moves towards being safer. Some space is more safe than others. This is again, back to culture. It's not as safe in more classical organizations, more legacy type organizations, lots of small business and eclectic, um, entities. It's safer in those places, especially if the leader self identifies and leads with that awareness and makes it safe. You know, that's, that's part of the strategy. But generally speaking, the closer you are to norm, identifying as autistic or any other thing and looking normal is a lot safer than identifying with some kind of characteristic that already has a stereotypical judgment on it. And so we do have a lot of work to do to, to understand and appreciate a difference that looks different, whatever that means. So I have a colleague who has autism who's done a lot of a ton of marketing and branding work in the organizational space and as an, um, independent contractor and, and she'd be working in a space and overwhelmed, has so much coping mechanism, but she'd just be crying. But she's not crying, sobbing. She's just tears. It's just sensory overload and tears are coming down and being able to be in a space where People didn't judge that. So people judged it either judged her as antisocial or judged that, clearly you are unhappy here. It's like, no, she would say, what's happening? This is just sensory all over. I'm fine. Because she was maintaining her work, she was continuing to work. And I think that, um, experiences like that, that we already have judgments around women crying, for example, we've created about that. And so it didn't really matter how much she said, um, or people moving away from the group. We have judgments around those things too, that we feel we're being rejected or whatever it is that we feel. Um, I know another woman, she told me the story of being fired because she also. I think she's, um. I don't remember what she told me the diagnosis was. And it doesn't really matter. Diagnoses, by the way, should be considered private medical information. People can disclose if they want, so really should not be dependent on somebody saying, this is my thing to get some support. But anyway, that's. That's faith speaking. Um, but she was at an after party for her company, and sensorially was a lot for her. And so she. She wasn't super interactive. And they called her into a meeting afterwards and said, clearly, our company isn't a good fit for you. There isn't alignment on values. And they hadn't given her a clear expectation up front. And so there wasn't any conversation about. There was no curiosity about the difference. The thing that they saw that looked like mismatched expectation. They just said, it looks like this isn't a fit, and she was fired. So I think it's not safe when it looks different. It's sexy when you have a diagnosis. You don't look too different, and you look like a superstar. And so we do need to shift into, um, a place where the expression of difference, the actual difference, is what is being supported, embraced, and integrated.

Speaker C: Mm. So I love that you brought that up. That it can just be really. That it can be really sexy to have a diagnosis if you look like a superstar. Like we see those articles. I mean, I ran into a few even last week that said, like, um, something like the entrepreneur, the entrepreneurial superpowers. You know what I mean? Of the person with adhd. I mean, I wouldn't say, you know, that as an entrepreneur and as someone who is neurodistinct, that it can actually be really stressful to be an entrepreneur, um, you know, and to be in that instance. But I think that can be, you know, it can be Stressful anywhere. And anyhow, that's just so. Yeah, it's so interesting that you're. That you're talking about it. So what do you see as, like, what do you see as some of, you know, like, if you could see around the corner or look off into the horizon and talk about, like, how is the nature of teamwork in the workplace changing? Or how is the culture of the Western workplace changing?

Speaker D: I want to, um, answer, uh, how I would want it to be changing.

Speaker C: I would love to hear that, because

Speaker D: I think that there is. I think humans have three, uh, core needs. I mean, we have lots of core needs, but the three needs that I tune into and I pay attention to. The need to relate to each other in ways that feel healthy. The need to be autonomous and direct our lives. Like, I'm, you know, I can. I can chart my course and do what I want. And the need to be able to do things that you're good at and to feel proud of that and to have that acknowledged. And I feel the best place for those needs to be met in a way that's. That's just healthy. And, uh, when I use word healthy, I think about it mental health, healthy psychological health, healthy physical. Physical health, bodies doing better. Not all this chronic illness that we see, not all the mental health struggles that we see. Um, I think the best way to do that is for us to capitalize on the fact that people spend eight to 10 hours working in teams. So how I would love to see work transformed is that work becomes a place that's restorative. Uh, what we've done in the past, however many years that we've done, it is made work a place that depletes. And we think that this is normal and this is okay. So we need to recover from work, and, uh, we need to vacation and we need to do all these things. And I'm not talking about healthy rest, and I'm not talking about healthy rhythms in life where you work on rest, but we've, uh, made work to be destructive. And so if we can transform how people relate to each other, all the studies say that when people have friends at work, just basic friends at work, well, being goes up, mental health issues go down, productivity goes up. Um, quality of the work experience and the effectiveness of the team goes up just by having friends. We also know that just by having friends, prior trauma experiences that cause heart disease later on in life, that those effects are reduced just by having friends. So how do we capitalize on these eight to 10 hours that people are at work, we could actually change the way we live together as humans and just be healthier. So, um, what do I see on the horizon? This increased awareness. Just like we have bathrooms and work now. We're like, oh, people shouldn't be handling their business in outhouses or walking miles. There's a bathroom at work just because humans need one. And water coolers and coffee machines. What if we also were really intentional about how we built the workflow, how we paid attention to how people love to communicate with each other? Because having friends is about being able to communicate. So if you speak French and I speak Spanish, and, uh, we are on the same team, and French and Spanish are just euphemisms for our difference. If you speak French and I speak Spanish, and we're on the same team trying to work together, then there is some bridge that needs to be built between the two of us automatically, and that just needs to be a part of how it happens in a traditional setting. That's a translator. What's that? Automatic bridge when that difference is your auditory and, um, visual. What's the automatic translator when the difference is you need sensory input, and I avoid sensory input. There's some of these things that we just want to become better at thinking about and building into our workspaces so that humans can thrive and have meaningful work. I think we'd be less depressed.

Speaker C: I think you're right. This has been such a beautiful conversation, and I have enjoyed it so much. Um, I think that before we hop off today, I think that I just really kind of want to ask you the question if there was something that you wish that everyone knew, that would empower them in their workspaces and empower them as leaders, empower their effectiveness as well as just how they feel in that identity, in that role, whatever role that they occupy.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think that. That the first. The first thought that comes to mind is that truly being inclusive of difference. We've spent a lot of time talking about neurodistinctiveness, but I tend to say to people, we've all been rejecting some aspect of our own difference so that we can conform and feel safe. And in the organizational space, being able to truly be compassionate and to truly connect with somebody else's difference starts with being willing to accept our own differences and really be willing to let those differences be seen. So as a leader or any person on a team, I think it starts with you. Because we cannot, uh, include something in another person that we're rejecting in ourselves. And so how. How can we, uh, turn up that dial in us that allows our own preferences and our own nuances to be seen and to be brought to the table and integrated in healthy ways versus, you know, being a dictator about it. On the other hand, as a leader, you could say my way or the highway, but there. There could actually be this exposure, the safe exposure of difference, and then that. That helping everybody else to. To know that they can do that too. Um, because people are watching. People don't. People are not going to allow themselves to be seen because we all think that that's not safe. And so if we can bring our own selves out in vulnerable ways and then allow other people to see that, then it's like, maybe, maybe I could try. Maybe I could trust. So I think it really starts there. When I'm working with a team. It starts with, how do we build the trust so that this is safe? One of the things, you start including people with differences, you start to say, hey, this. We are that team. And then you step on people, let themselves be seen, and then you slam it. Then it's even more toxic than before. It's even more difficult than before. So really building the trust up by allowing people to know that it's safe and proving that, um, is really the priority.

Speaker C: That's extraordinary and so very true. Thank you so much for this conversation. It's really been a pleasure to get to know you even better. I hope that we have an opportunity to share this conversation really wide and far and as on as many, um, just really as many channels as we can. Because I think there's just so much value, really. There's a lot of treasure that came from this, um, from this.

Speaker D: We should do it again. I think we could talk about. We could go down so many pathways in this conversation. So thank you so much, Celeste, for being willing to just let me think aloud as you ask me questions.

Speaker C: You're so welcome. Really, this is really. It's been very fun for me. I've enjoyed it tremendously. Thank you for the opportunity to get to know you better, uh, and also to kind of put you in front of other people who are surely just as curious as I am.

Speaker D: You're welcome.

Speaker C: All right, well, we'll talk soon. And, um, to everyone listening to the podcast, I hope that you have enjoyed this. Faith will, um, share information. If you have greater curiosity about me and my work, you'll have a chance to, um, learn more about that and, um, of course, everything, uh, about having an opportunity to work and interact with Faith and to find out more about how she can help you and serve your organization begins with booking a call and starting a conversation.

Speaker D: By the time that they're hearing these words, Celeste, they have heard about you and absolutely your information is in the show notes. Everybody. Um, go check out Celeste's amazing artistry in branding. So that's what it feels like.

Speaker C: Thank you for saying that. Have a beautiful afternoon, Fay, and we'll talk soon.

Speaker A: This has been another episode of the Peak Performing Team where we help business leaders cultivate more innovation, productivity and well being on their teams. If you liked today's episode, please share it with someone and write a review on itunes. If you're curious about how this would work with your team, go to faithclark.com schedule a quick team performance audit and get customized team strategies and solutions.