Supply Chain at Escape Velocity: How InnoFlight and Verigon Are Scaling Secure Space System for the SDA Era | The Pair Program Ep81

Speaker A: Welcome to the PEAR program from Hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad.

Speaker B: And I'm your other host, Mike Gruen.

Speaker A: Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups and career growth. Welcome back to the Pair program. I'm your host Tim Winkler, joined by my co host Mike Gruen. Uh, Mike, today is a uh, National Dog Day, so I wanted to kick things off with a little shout out to uh, two very uh, important family members, uh, in my life. First, Basil, a five year old Swiss mountain dog. She's been with us for um, almost as long as we've been recording this podcast. And then second, uh, would be uh, Griffin who's previous dog, best bud. We lost him uh, way too soon. Um, but uh, my wife had this beautiful uh, regal portrait, um, put together and painted of, of ah, of Griffin because he was just a uh, um, yeah, a very stoic dog if you will. Um, but um, we uh, we, we, we love our dogs in this family. Um, and so to all the, all the dog lovers out there, give your, your pups a few extra treats today. Um, on behalf of, of the uh, pair program. Mike, did you have a dog growing up? I can't remember.

Speaker C: Oh yeah, we had a lot.

Speaker B: I grew up, I grew up in a rural area. We had, but I mean basically on a horse farm. So we had lots of dogs, uh, never more than I think three at any one time. But um, yeah, love dogs, loved going for walks in the woods with them. Um, yeah, Bear. And you could tell who named them based on uh, so my dad named them like Bear and Coco and my mom gave them human names. So Joy, Abby, you can always tell which dog sort of which person.

Speaker A: That's great. Jeff, Greg, you guys got dogs?

Speaker D: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Ah, ah, give them a shout out. What are the names?

Speaker D: Eevee and Duckling. And Duckling has a story behind him because he was a uh, a a kicked out of the litter. Runt that was bottle fed and so the breeder said he was the luckiest duckling she's ever had so we just kept the name.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: That's awesome. Jeff, what about yourself?

Speaker C: Got a dog, Chili C H I L I uh, very nice the mix. English uh, shepherd, some wiener, some, a whole bunch of different things. Great dog though.

Speaker A: Uh, love it.

Speaker B: Beautiful.

Speaker A: All right, yeah, well, happy National Dog Day to all the dog lovers out there. Uh, let's transition into a little overview of today's episode. So today we're going to be talking about scaling secure space systems, uh, and what it takes to deliver critical satellite hardware fast at scale without cutting cutting corners. Uh, so we're going to be highlighting a pretty unique partnership between two companies at the heart of this. Uh, Innoflight, a, uh, leader in cybersecure, low size, weight and power, uh, also known as Swap, avionics for space and defense, and Veragon, uh, a trusted contract manufacturing partner that's helping them build, test and deliver full satellite ready systems. Um, so this episode should tell a story of scale, uh, of trust between two partners. Uh, we'll dive into security and uh, what it means to build mission critical hardware together. Uh, so to, to tackle this conversation we've got two great guests. Uh, our first guest we've got Jeff Janicek, uh, the chairman and founder of Innoflight. Uh, Jeff is a space industry trailblazer with over three decades of experience, uh, including 33 years with the U.S. air Force, uh, helped pioneer unmanned X vehicles, uh, played a key role in standing up the U.S. space Force and founding InnoFlight over 20 years ago. Uh, now leading non, uh, a non traditional defense contractor that's delivering secure electronics for space missions. So Jeff, welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me here for sure.

Speaker A: Uh, and then alongside Jeff we've got Greg, uh, Davis. Uh, Greg's the vice president of sales at Varagon.

Speaker D: Ah.

Speaker A: He leads Varagon's business development and has played a key role in helping to scale the company's manufacturing, uh, footprint to support major programs for space, uh, development agency. Um, Greg, appreciate you joining us, uh, on the podcast.

Speaker D: Thanks Tim. Looking forward to it.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Awesome. All right, now before we dive in, we do like to kick things off with a fun segment that we call Pair Me Up. Here's where we'll go around the room and just spitball two things that go together. So Mike, you always lead us off. What do you got for us?

Speaker B: So, uh, based on recent events, as usual, um, we're going with college dorm rooms and hot pots. Uh, so we just uh, brought my oldest to college freshman orientation. All that and moving them in and of course had to have the hot pot, um, that nothing's changed. It's still the like they might. The one thing that's changed is now they have a microwave in their room. I guess, uh, when I was in college we didn't have that. But certainly, uh, the hot pot is a key ingredient of the dorm room.

Speaker A: I thought you said Hot Pockets, and I was like, that's so good.

Speaker B: No, no, no. I mean, probably, but no, we're going hot pot. Just hot pot.

Speaker A: I'm sure Hot Pockets will make their way into that dorm room at some point.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. I mean, if you have the microwave in the room. Of course, Hot Pockets are gonna follow shortly.

Speaker A: That's right. That's awesome. What year is he? Freshman. Oh, man.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, is he. Is he, uh, the last one out, or do you have another.

Speaker B: That's first one out.

Speaker A: First one out. Okay. Man, what an exciting, uh, exciting time. Where. Where's he going?

Speaker B: Towson. Towson University. So not too far, uh, but far enough.

Speaker A: Good stuff. Um, all right, uh, I'll jump in. Uh, I'm gonna go with SkyTrack launch monitors and user error. Uh, this one's a little obscure, but, uh, follow me on this, uh, this pack. Week past weekend, I hosted, uh, a bunch of my buddies in my garage for our fantasy football draft. And I had converted my garage, you know, a few years ago, to a golf simulator space. And I got a bunch of friends who play golf regularly. And so we're in there kind of playing a virtual round. And I'll just say that, uh, they weren't very dialed in for most of their chipping and their putting. Uh, it was constantly them putting the blame on the launch monitor saying, oh, it's just not that accurate. There's no way I left the putt that short, or, there's no way that chip was over the green, uh, so on and so on. And so eventually this just becomes a point where I had to say, you know, it's. You know, this technology, Maybe it's not 100% accurate, but it's pretty. It's pretty precise. Um, so I had to just continue to remind these guys that it was probably a user error at some point tied to this end result of a bulk of these poor shots. But, uh, that's going to be my pair, and I'm going to go with the SkyTrack launch monitor and user error. Um, so I'm sure, uh, Greg, I think you and I talked a little bit about, uh, uh, some launch monitors. So we'll. We'll have to riff on that. Uh, maybe. Maybe after the show at some point. Let's. Let's pass it over to our guest, uh, Jeff, A, uh, quick intro and your pairing.

Speaker C: Yeah. So, Jeff Janic Ferrum, uh, founder in a Flight. Um, my pairing. Um, you threw a little bit of curveball by telling me It's National Dog Day because I might have gone with dogs and cats, because I have one dog and one cat, Chili and Howie, and so they're definitely a great pair. Um, and that's a rare thing, right? Dogs, cats, getting on.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker C: My, My pairing is, uh, is. You said yours was a little bit obscure. Mine is not obscure, but it is my. Like, it's, uh. When you said pairing, this is my pairing. It's beer and pizza. I, uh, do not. I do not eat. I do not have pizza for breakfast. I. When I have. Here. When I have pizza, it's a holy grail meal, and it is within here. So, like, I'll. I want to have pizza in the middle of the day for some reason because I don't want to drink beer, so I got to have them together. And I love beer. I'm a beer connoisseur, so it's always like, I gotta pick my beer out. Um, the pizza, I'll eat just about anything, uh, because I just love pizza. But yeah, yeah, that's my. That's my. That's my parent, man.

Speaker A: That's a classic, timeless pairing right there. I love it.

Speaker B: Yeah, that is.

Speaker A: I gotta ask, though, because, you know, that pizza gets to a point where it's pretty filling. Are you going with a style? I mean, what kind of beer are you drinking with that pizza?

Speaker C: Oh, yeah, no, that's a great question. Um, I'm, I, I do. I do enjoy stouts, but I do. I drink them typically alone as more of a dessert beer. So, like, a little bit more on the sweeter side than, like, Guinness. Um, and then, yeah, with pizza, they don't pair well. Uh, with spicy food, I'll do. Sometimes I'll do the stuff, but most time, pizza, it's ales, pale ales, IPAs. Those are. Those are my favorite beers.

Speaker A: Um, yeah, a little bit lighter. I hear you. Good stuff. Awesome pairing. Thanks again for joining us, Greg. Quick, uh, intro and your pairing, Greg.

Speaker D: I'm Greg Davis, VP of Sales at Varagon, and my pairing is, uh, family and food. And the reason I chose those two is as I shared with you earlier, my wife and I just, uh, moved to Scottsdale, and our kids are here and their kids. So we've kind of as close as I can get it to being a, uh, absolute requirement. Uh, is every Sunday, the entire family and friends and their friends, so come to our house to eat. My wife's Italian, so we. We have, uh, no, no end of food. Um, everybody's welcome. And I have selfish motives for that because uh, that's the, the most opportune time to find out where everybody's at, what's going on, what's good, what's bad, and kind uh, of pass on some, some wisdom, get some wisdom and uh, send everybody off on the new week in a good full belly and uh, some good stories.

Speaker A: That's awesome. Yeah, it's a great tradition. What um, is this like a, you know, do you have multiple courses you're rolling out? Is there always somebody like bringing a dessert? Like how, how is the uh, like a potluck style? Or is it you all owning most of the, the meal?

Speaker D: We pretty much own most of the meal. But uh, to tie onto what Jeff had said, uh, my sons in law and I are, are quite into the, the beers. So somebody will bring some, some unique beers and uh, invariably somebody will bring a additional dessert. But my wife prides herself on um, nobody needs to bring anything. It's, we got plenty of it. So she ends up sending more home usually than what's eaten.

Speaker A: Well, my wife's a big baker, so uh, I, uh, I'll book a ticket. You know Scottsdale you said. Right.

Speaker D: Trackman will be in next week.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, let's go. We got it. We got a full, a full night ahead of us next Sunday. We'll be there. Let us know what time dinner starts.

Speaker D: Perfect.

Speaker A: Good stuff. All right, good pairings all around. Um, let's shift into the heart of today's conversation. So uh, today we're going to cover three kind of big themes. Uh, one, you know, how in a Flight and Barragan scaled secure space manufacturing. Uh, how this partnership has also helped kind of unlock major growth for both companies and um, why building cybersecurity into the hardware, not bolting it on later is a critical piece for space missions today. Um, so let's, let's dive in. Jeff, I want to start with you. Uh, you know, Innoflight has grown quite well over, over the recent years. Uh, from our discovery call that you mentioned, you all were delivering, you know, 150 plus units per month, uh, with full systems going to major primes. Why don't you begin by giving our listeners a quick overview on the, the technology that Innoflight's delivering and, and also expand on the, the capabilities of the prolific proliferated warfighter space architecture.

Speaker C: Yeah, sure. Um, so we, we, our focus is really in the processing element of a, of a satellite system. So always um, leaning towards um, being more innovative and advanced in that area. So HB Tripod smart systems. Right? I mean satellite systems, satellites in general space systems tend to be behind technology a lot because you know, once you get something in the space, the amount of time it takes to get there and then you prove that it works. Uh, most, most customers, most uh, primes, folks that are putting these systems up there are hesitant, reticent to, to bring new technology on rapidly. Uh because the fear of failure. Um, so we, we kind of with our electronics we wanted to get out there and find right away leaning forward to smarter systems, adapting commercial uh, electronics, commercial protocols, adapting um, modern computer, uh, based methods and technologies that we could bring into satellites and then make them more advanced both on the platform and over the communications link. Uh, so that's really how we started out of the gate and that's kind of what's intrinsic to what we designed. Um, so we do leverage commercial parts. We call it fine for space. Uh, that there's a long process that goes along with that, including the selection and uh, how you test them and the uh, heritage behind them and uh, just sharing data, uh, and then uh, mitigating their effects that you know that might happen. But if the user doesn't see it or you can keep the uptime of the satellite, the uptime of the processor, the computer working, um, you know the greatest part of the time, close to 99% or 99.99% however you want to look at it. That's, that's what we, that's what we do with our systems. And then the fact that we adapt these commercial parts, we can make them very small, we can hit lower cost targets. And that's very advantageous to space. Uh, low, lower, lower mass or size is going to equate for the most part to lower cost. Uh and then the big thing about lower cost is with smaller size is a smaller launch cost. So this is leading to the purge. So that all of this is kind of a good foundational piece when you talk about proliferated workfighting space architecture because that is about resiliency gained through numbers, um, and not waiting around to get new technology in space. Rapidly refreshing having a number of nodes that one or two go down that you're uh, back up and um, operate or you can go through a different path or you're, you can uh, launch again and introduce new technology. So um, we kind of, we started out of the gate that way, you know, 20, 20 some years ago and took a while to build up, uh, to get to that point. Um, you know, just, we didn't take rounds of funding. Uh, so it's all uh, a little bit of seed funding here from the government here and there, uh different contracts we were awarded. We're able to um, keep, keep that path of that vision. And as this proliferated war fighting space architecture, uh, really this rise of small satellites, it's, I kind of look at it like more globally. For instead of saying a war fighting type of architecture, you know resiliency in space is gained a lot by small satellites. That's over the last five, seven, eight years. You've just seen that take off with a lot of the new space companies, not uh, just the dod international commercial kind of following that same model. And you know we have a lot of that right technology and it's leading to higher volumes getting the numbers that you're talking about.

Speaker B: So with the, I think you touched on it, um, is the length of the mission also shorter? So that's like, because it's lighter, cheaper and also therefore cheaper to get into space. The length. Because I know I have a lot of friends that worked at NASA Goddard and like some of missions are very, very long missions and so they want systems that are going to last a long time, that they're therefore your failure. All of the stuff that goes into like how long this has to last, your risk for failure. So is your mission length also shorter because you have a lot of smaller ones and it's easier to get up there?

Speaker C: That's exactly it. Um, that's a great point on the fact that you can launch uh, new technology quicker. That's a big part of the schedule. Get it there, uh, more launch vehicles being available just driving down the price, especially the leo. The costs kind of go up as you go up to the geosynchronous orbits. But even with just having more launch vendors being able to do that, it's driving down costs. SpaceX was being part of that and how they set out to really drive down launch costs too. The rest kind of followed. So that's, that's, that's certainly a big part of it, uh, that allows the model I talked about with you know, commercial technology to fit in and it goes shorter life. Now something that a lot of people may not know, some of your listeners may not know as well, is that um, you know that we're finding that these systems last longer than the design life. So you know, you get this three to five year life and then everyone's really risk averse. It's like oh well it just needs to last three years. So you're barely going to make it. But you know, we'll accept that. You know, you know, the old guard you like to call them like oh, uh, that you know, you're using what part and it uses what kind of.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: Okay. Remember what are the test results or you know, well we don't have time or I can test it. We're going to try. You, you know, we're going to kind of take a little bit of risk. Then we're finding some of these systems working a lot better and longer. Uh, that's, that's just, I think that's happened over time and I started the industry a while ago and

Speaker B: you've got

Speaker C: a benefit of commercial parts like cellular, like parts that go into cell phones are actually more radiation hardened today than they were when cell phones started coming about in what, the 90s. Um, and there was no requirement to do that, they just did. That's just technology and they just are. And I mean there's proof of it. So everybody said well they must be looking for the. No, they're not looking for the space market. They're just, they're better at uh, radiation tolerance than they were then. It's just improvements in technology and what they do and maybe designing it for better vibration, harder vibration environments and worst case thermal environments probably does have a side effect of giving you that additional radiation tolerance which is the, that's the one environment that you got to be real careful.

Speaker A: So with Innoflight, um, you're smaller to mid sized business, I guess just from a, you know, maybe from a headcount perspective, what's the size of the company?

Speaker C: We're about 200 employees and so talk

Speaker A: me through, you know, what were some of these key decisions or I guess maybe like inflection points where you decided you were going to need a partner to, to satisfy some of the demands of you know, your customers like Space Development Agency.

Speaker C: Oh yeah. So you know we, we, we started, you know a big buy for us was somebody building two spares, one in two spare boxes. When I say boxes like processor, radio, crypto boxes. The things that we sell, we provide to this satellite manufacturers and integrators. Couple um, spares and, and they needed three, two flights, one for a, you know that, that was a big order. Uh, and now the big orders are more around. We're doubling up on, you know, it's not just, it's 60 to 100, uh, in one order of one particular product. Uh, that's, that that makes you think a lot differently. And as, as, and we, we. It was a Little bit of an inflection point too. So you're right with this pwsa, the proof of war fighting space architecture and this approach more in volumes and the resiliency, we um, had always realized that we could, that we could make more money, we could have greater margins if we were teaming with contract manufacturers, working with contract manufacturers who could do turnkey solutions for us. Um, you know, not just one piece of, you know, it's just building the printed wiring board or just assembling electronics and we have to do all the kidding. There's a whole part of that that our contract manufacturer, uh, like Barragon, our leading one does for us. Uh, and the more we can put into that as a part of our whole process, we know that we're able to have uh, a better cost point and be more efficient and there's a lot of other things gained. So we've been developing the relationships over time as a company. But I think yeah, we kind of got to a point that inflection point where it's like if we don't do this we've got to change something because we're probably not going to stay as price competitive and we're going to be drawing out our customer schedules which by the way shrunk in the, in recent times as well. They want things quicker.

Speaker A: Yeah, quicker. Yeah. So, uh, so that was kind of where you know, thinking through a, a partnership made sense. And so I, I want to kick it over to Greg and just kind of get your perspective on this. You know, you, you guys have been, you know, been do on this journey before, you know, in a flight, got their work with you know, let's just say sda, you walk us through a little bit more on like how the partnership evolved from your end because you know, from our conversation you guys were not really dialed into too much into this industry or this vertical. Um, how did the partnership kind of come about and how did you all justify it to make sense to, to go in, to you know, start scaling from, you know, just like you mentioned, like just from PCB assemblies to full box builds.

Speaker D: Yeah. So, um, the history of Aragon, uh, we've been around since 1980 and we've always kind of been in the, in the mission critical, high reliability arena if you will and historically been focused on the energy, oil and gas exploration world which is very tight from a quality perspective. So we were, we've always, we, our pedigree is to be very tight on the quality and the processes. So uh, when, when we first started talking to Innoflight I think it was 2017, 2018. And at that point, um, I think that Innoflight hadn't evolved to where what Jeff explained right there. Innoflight was looking for somebody to build printed circuit boards. And we started building printed circuit boards for InnoFlight 2018. And very quickly as they started coming and seeing our capabilities and some of the, um, ancillary features, you know, test and conformal coding and you know, the supply chain capabilities, it just was a very logical next step to say, okay, as Xenoflight is growing, they would have had to make the decision to add Capex or space or something on their end to, if they were going to continue to build that. And we had that internally. So it was a, it was a really nice evolution. And to be honest, the, the high volume in space is low volume in every other, from, from a contract manufacturing perspective. So it was a really good fit because it's, it's, it's medium volume at best, but, but it is, um, it's bulky from the standpoint of all the different things you can do to support that business. You're not just, you're not just buying some, some components and assembling printed circuit boards and shipping them out. We, you know, we started adding test board level, test, functional test, burn in. And then it became, well, now you can get the metal and, and basically build this cubesat for us. And that's kind of how it's evolved.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I want to dive deeper into this, this idea of, um, you know, partnerships to propel growth through manufacturing specifically. Jeff, this is something that you and I riffed on quite a bit in our discovery call because we're seeing it across the board in, in every domain right now, uh, domestically in the U.S. right. Everything from, you know, drones to unmanned surface vessels to space tech. Um, talk to me a little bit about, you know, what goes into a, a trusted, you know, manufacturing partnership in this industry. You know, what is it that you're looking for when you're selecting a partner? What, you know, what kind of knowledge they need to know. Kind of walking in the, you know, walking into this relationship, uh, and what, you know, what kind of stood out with, with Varagon, obviously you all have been working together for, for some time that eventually evolved into scalable. Let's maybe talk through like a new relationship that's been built, uh, and what a founder might be looking for in a, in a manufacturing partner.

Speaker C: Yeah, that's a good question. I think it really is around, uh, elements of uh, quality, quality manufacturing, uh, so as you, as you rise in that producing volume, uh, I think there's complexities around you know, what's, what's more in what, you know, Greg made a good point. The space mass manufacturing isn't a lot of numbers, but it does have uh, there, there's a lot of um, terms or uh, things that under the quality realm in terms of, of an electronics, you know, box, board, box, uh, going into space. And so you know we have the very detailed uh, you know, what, you know, what comes not just, it's not, it's very detailed in terms of what's being asked for from a lot of our customers. Uh, they want proof of this. Uh, you want, you want, you know, some of the things you want to be able to prove as a company that you have that kind of capability where it's like uh, you know, uh, as 9100 being uh, qualified, all of that really falls in through the entire build of the system. Uh, and your contract manufacturer is a big if not biggest part of that. And so they're in that whole process. So you're establishing a trust chain through that process that involves a different company. So how we show that now to our customers and how we can follow their audits and or you know, get, get our AS9100 research, whatever case we know or CMMI different, different kind of certs. We're, we're showing that through the whole product life cycle. So yeah, it's, it's ah, I, I, from the get go, I, I was kind of, I, I understood it and was told this is really important. It's a shoulder to shoulder relationship. It's not a typical um, you know, vendor supplier relationship. You know, I'm just going to go buy, I'm going to buy this and I've got this purchase order and that looks fine. You know, throw it over the fence. You're not going to get that um, working uh, as the contract manufacturer, especially for space, um, designed and manufactured hardware.

Speaker A: Yeah, Greg, I mean this obviously was a uh, huge spark to growth for Varagon. You know, in our discovery call you, you kind of talk through you know, some of that recent growth from a headcount perspective of going from 140 employees to 400 plus opening up a new facility, expanded, you know, you're going into new verticals. How, you know, you're approaching from a business development perspective but like just operationally and from you know, the founding teams, like you know, was this on you uh, know, from a vision perspective, uh, how, how do you all Respond when you know, something like this kind of starts to take shape and you know, is it something that was already kind of in your all's mind in terms of uh, you know, a road map or you know, just curious on how you, how you know, you react to that type of growth and uh, you know, did it kind of lead you down some new areas that you weren't intentionally going for? Um, but just kind of went with it because you're just kind of riding that wave.

Speaker D: That's a really good uh, way of asking that question because I could take it a couple different ways. But I guess what I would say is it highlights how important it is to start with what do you want to be? And you know, our, our management team has many, many years in this industry at different places. We've been together here for about 10 years and I think the one thing that we've always kind of the bedrock of the foundation of the company is mission critical systems is kind of where we're going to stay. You're not going to see us straying into commercial, um, applications. So whether it's defense, oil and gas, space are kind of the touch point. There will be mission critical stuff. And around that mission critical um, piece is the understanding that your QMS system, your training, all of those things have to be, you know, at the peak because you may not, you may be moving into other verticals. But because we're going to stay in the mission critical area, we're not going to have to, we're not going to have different levels of employees, so to speak. We're not going to be building, you know, class two on one line and class three on another line. So that makes it easier that we're looking for a certain kind of employee and a certain kind of capability. Um, with the growth that we've had, it really starts to kind of stress, how good is that training group? How good is that, that, that recruiter that, that um, hr, you know, because you're not looking to, you can't put an ad in the paper and just say, I'm looking for people that have experience in surface mounts. So you know, J standard, uh, solderers, those kind of rework people, those are, those are, they become pretty, you know, needle in a haystackish. And when you're trying to find a lot of them, it can be difficult. But I think that's kind of been our approach to as we've grown. Um, the other thing is when we're vetting potential new customers, we kind of have a, a Pretty rigorous vetting because of the fact of when you're doing business with these kind of companies, these potential customers, you have to be all in. There's not, you know, a purchase order and you get six months to deliver and then you ship it and you're done. It's like the eco activity, the, the customer interaction, the uh, on site from, from the, the inno flights of the world and innovites customers are on site. So some of the things that we're looking for in a potential customer in that, in that world is you know, how detailed are their material requirements, what kind of end item data packages are they expecting, um, what kind of test are they expecting? Because though each one of those ads were like, okay, they're, they're, they're shortening their potential pool of who they're going to look at and if they're looking for all of those things, we think we're as close to the center of the bullseye as you can get.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's really fascinating. I'm curious, uh, on what like the communication loop looks like Jeff, from Euro's End over to Varagon side just to ensure, you know, when you guys are talking through, you know what the deliverable is, you're not biting off more than you can chew because you don't know if they've got the workforce, the bandwidth, the capabilities to deliver at the volume that your customer is looking for. So what does that kind of look, loop look like?

Speaker C: Yeah, you know, with Farragon, very trusted relationships, we don't get them, we don't get turnover. And if we do there's you know, an introduction of somebody new and it comes from somebody like Greg or you know, people that we're working with almost on a day to day basis. And you know, then that if they're pulled in that they're trusted, they're up to speed on that process, they're trained. Uh, like Craig was talking about, all the training requirements go behind that. So yeah, we have, that's a really positive thing that uh, if we were missing that you would start to get really concerned and be triple checking, quadruple checking things, uh, and that drags things out when you're talking about the QMS side of uh, a business and that whole process. So um, uh, it's somebody uh, on the line who you know is already up to speed, they're already trusted, they work with us, they come on site anytime, uh, we need them to or just plan them, ah, on a regular basis so we can actually have face to Face meetings. Our folks go on site as well. It's a pretty short distance to travel. So that, that helps. That really does, uh, uh, that, you know, it's, yeah, if they were right back in our back backyard, be even greater. But the fact that it's a short distance, believe me, that's a, that's a big deal because you know that there's, there's something about the hands on being able to see what they do, they see what we do. Um, that's all part of this, uh, how, how we built the trust in the relationship working uh, shoulder to shoulder.

Speaker A: Nice.

Speaker B: I'm curious Greg, on um, um, like you were talking about the sales cycle and looking for partners and stuff, um, how much like education is going back in the other direction. Right. You said, oh, you're looking for these people that know what they want in terms of this, that and the other thing I'm curious like, similar to like how much are you finding that you also have to educate the potential customers about your capabilities or what maybe they should be looking for anything along those lines because I could imagine that, that if you're not used to working with a company like yours, that that could be a big factor.

Speaker D: It can be. And um, I guess what I would say is we have to, we have to tread carefully in that world where you know, we're not the um, the teacher so to speak officially. So you have to earn a certain level of respect and trust before you can start, you know, adding those conversations. And we're well past that with, with no flight. I would say that, you know, for all intents and purposes, um, and Jeff may, may have another perspective. But um, we are a department if you will, within enoflight. I mean purchasing to purchasing to finance, engineering to engineering, test to test. So there are sub meetings and sub conversations going on all day, virtually every day. And then we have a, ah, weekly. Um. Basically everybody um, that's involved in the program from both sides gets on the, on the phone and we go through a very detailed action item register of all things that are open. We, we have gotten to the point where you know, there's a lot of shorthand communication with respect to um, okay, if you do this, it's going to do that and, and they get it and it's been great. I mean it takes a few years to get to the point where everybody's talking as if they're co workers as opposed to I'm the customer or I'm the supplier. And I think we've kind of gotten past that. Point at this, at this time.

Speaker C: Yeah, I agree 100% with what Greg said. That's very true. Spot on. Uh, even looking at our org chart, uh, about, you know, the spike in San Waiver. We don't. If you look at our org chart, then you start to throw in the things that come from the outside, like a, uh, supplier or partner, whatever you want to describe. That would be a box for us. It's like I just had a discussion for my CEO a couple weeks ago about the org and Barragon came in that discussion, uh, how we structure our org, that it aligns with how important and how, uh, big Barragan is with respect to what we do here.

Speaker A: Yeah, sounds like Barragon's the, the beer to your all's pizza. Jeff.

Speaker B: Well played.

Speaker A: I like, I like how you put that. Uh, Greg is like you almost like. Yeah, you're a department within NFL. I think it's a really interesting, uh, way to kind of interpret, you know, how, how deep and embedded that partnership has become, uh, over the years. Uh, I wanted to kind of touch on something, uh, around like the qa, kind of like the testing stuff that, that you had kind uh, of mentioned, Greg, before we, um, transition to like talking, uh, more about the security stuff. So maybe a question for both of you guys, but what does that QA process look like? You know, how you, how are you all both kind of. Or are you all both kind of managing the quality testing and delivery just to make sure you know, what's leaving, you know, Veragon, uh, is, is truly, you know, space ready. And then Jeff, I guess like on the receiving end, you know what. Are there any final QA steps that you all implement, implement prior to, you know, a finished kind of product that's being shipped to your customers?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, it's, uh, it, it's. At the end of the day, it aligns with better quality. So their, their qms, their quality management system, how they do quality, uh, is vital to us. And while we may be looking at more from the outside or as a result of something that happened that we need to take a deeper look at after we received on our end in our quality process, it still leads to improvement and say so improvement on our side, improvements on, on their sides, all things to better quality. Uh, so it, it's a. Um. While we, while we have the independence of, of having our own ratings, uh, and, and being held accountable to those, the fact that we, we both, that we both have those, we're both trusted, that aligns to ultimately a Better quality product for our customers. That's how I look at it. And if you can work that expeditiously and um, efficiently. Which goes back to your question you asked about how well do you communicate? That was a great question. Because if we didn't, if we had that turnover, we felt like we were an arm's length or a phone call or who's this new? Or I got to submit this ticket online before I'm going to hear something from Greg in three days. It's going to drag out the process and ultimately to um, less efficiency.

Speaker A: Yeah. Greg, anything you wanted to add on to that from like the. Yeah, just like that. Kind of back and forth between on.

Speaker D: I would just say if you think like kind of along a continuum with, you know, 100 inner flight on this side and 100 varigun on this side. New products start out obviously 100% varagon or innoflight owns them and then they bring us in, we build board level product that gets tested, then it gets built up and that at a higher level gets tested. And then as we start to accumulate knowledge, they start dropping test equipment and test people here. And then there's a wit, there's a witness slash buy off before we are officially doing it ourselves. And so by the second round, third round, that continuum would be more like 80% Varagon and 20% Eno flight. And that's. We're continually doing that with new products and existing products and I think so. So from a, um, test development standpoint, we've got our people that align with the Inno Flight folks and they have their own individual working relationships. But that, that process is almost invisible between, from a management level, it's almost invisible who's working on that specific action item on that specific test.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. I want to kind of touch a little bit on security here. Jeff. This was something that you wanted to make sure that we spent a little bit of time on, um, before we wrap the main discussion. And so there's this growing risk to space assets. Uh, you kind of referenced a couple like signal jamming, uh, to supply chain exposure. Um, talk to me a little bit about what those growing risks look like, uh, in the industry. And then, um, you know, talk to me a little bit about, you know, you're passionate about. You can't just add these on. Right. These aren't just like a bolt on type of thing. They need to be built, you know, with security in mind from the get go. Uh, I'd love to hear a little bit of your, your thoughts on that?

Speaker C: Yeah, no, sure. Um, it is, it is across all fronts. Uh, the, the risks, the vulnerabilities, uh, on cyber, uh, are across all fronts in a design so centric to what in a flight does. You mentioned it. Right, you're right. Supply chain. We do software, we do hardware. Then, um, we're connected into a remote system and then that remote system in space, no humans can actually touch it. Good thing and bad thing. Right. So you have to look at that across all fronts. And we actually do with our. As uh, a company, we do that for what we're providing to our customers in our solutions. And we don't look at it as. Well, we've got this piece added on and you have that so you can feel much more relieved or you're using our encryption so you don't have to worry about anything else. Uh, the fact that we do encryption for the DoD though, does give us a foundational element behind that front, uh, uh, commonly front to the risk management framework, high assurance systems and how you put in place, um, the defense mechanisms and the uh, uh, ability to effectively harden your system. Um, so we are at a company basis where we started this a long time ago when we decided to build high assurance system for the government. It specifically, you know, crypto, which is um, yeah, it has the keys and it encrypts the data that. And you don't want anybody to break that. Right. Um, so my people don't understand what's behind that. And believe me, it's, it was a lot to take on as a company. It's, it's your systems, it's how you, it's how you write software. It's how you do almost anything. It's how you buy your parts. It's where you buy your parts. It's uh. So it's funny how this, it's really not funny, but it kind of makes sense. We started so long ago. Now we're seeing this rise of cyber security now. I mean really cyber is like the, it's the next, I mean, it's the next front of war. I mean war defines cyber ground. Right? Um, so you think about space systems and how, how important they are in that aspect. In that realm. We're providing processors, we're providing the brains, the guts, the heart of a satellite. Uh, as soon as it's able to generate power, as soon as it can get power, it brings these systems on. So we fill a very vital role in that, in protecting space and cyber. We have the right background and so we're incorporating that into, uh, all of our products. All our products have processors. I said, I mentioned they're smart systems. And like I said with Gregon, it goes to the supply chain as well. It wasn't like dumb luck that we picked a company, uh, that was focused on, um, critical systems, uh, trusted system, empirical system, trusted system. There's synonymous relationship there, uh, there's a lot that we know, uh, about their business that is important. Uh, while they may never touch the software that goes into it, which is extremely critical, um, as you can imagine in both cyber defense, um, and the vulnerability front, uh, it's from the hardware, the trusted element of putting it together. It's all about these touch points. I mean, even with a satellite, I told you there's a good thing that humans can't actually touch it. Uh, that, that is, there's a good element of security that the battle is the good guys can't touch it either to stand, sit there and protect it. Right. Uh, so, yeah, um, that goes. So that, that's big on the supply chain. So it is really important when with our big, uh, our suppliers both on the part side. And then of course in a, in a partnership relationship like we have with Paragon, uh, we consider that that's a big touch point. So that exposes, goes uh, back to some of the cyber threats that we have to, uh, take into consideration when we put a product in front of our customer and say, here's what we mean when we say this is cyber hardening, uh, not just, oh, we flashed on that software, that latest and greatest software you heard about. And uh, yeah, that's on there. Yeah, that can be a piece that have some element to it. Um, but it's through the whole, uh, it's across all fronts of a product, uh, from supply chain, uh, all intrinsic elements of the design and not just how it functions at the software level.

Speaker A: Yeah, I appreciate you touching on that. I mean it's a topic that is always kind of top of mind on our podcast as we're. Most of the folks that are joining are coming from critical infrastructure environments or verticals. If it's, you know, manufacturing, uh, you know, refinery rare earth metals to, um, you know, working in healthcare. You know, like, if, if security is not kept at the forefront, then, you know, you've already kind of lost that, that war. It's going to be, it's going to happen at some point. So I appreciate you, you speaking up on that. Uh, awesome. Well, I'm going to go ahead and uh, put a bow on this, you know, the main discussion here. Uh, and wrap up with, ah, a final segment that we call the five second scramble. So it's, it's pretty simple. It's rapid fire, Q and A. Uh, you know, give us your best answers. Try to keep it within five seconds. Um, Mike, why don't you lead with Greg and then I will close, uh, with Jeff.

Speaker B: Sounds great. Um, all right, here we go. Greg, uh, explain Veragon to me like I'm a five year old.

Speaker D: We are a mission critical contract manufacturer and we can support from turnkey through full system level test of all electronic requirements.

Speaker B: What was something you, uh, found surprising about manufacturing components for use in space?

Speaker D: The long lead times, the um, length of time from when something is designed to when it goes into production and how much of that stuff goes obsolete before it's actually ready to be purchased.

Speaker C: Oh, wow.

Speaker B: Uh, what roles are you hiring for in the next six to 12 months?

Speaker D: I can't think of any that were not.

Speaker B: Check out the website.

Speaker A: I guess we'll put a link in the show notes.

Speaker B: Sounds good. Uh, what's your favorite part of the culture there?

Speaker D: Um, we're very. We don't say no by the time we vetted a customer. The, the only question is do they understand what they're asking? If they understand what they're asking, we're going to figure out a way to make it happen.

Speaker B: Nice. Uh, is there an emerging market or sector that you think is underrated?

Speaker D: I don't know of one that's specific to our mission critical needs. Basically what we're trying to do is get deeper into the people who are who need that and just didn't know who Veragon was.

Speaker B: What was your first car?

Speaker D: My first start.

Speaker B: No, no, your first car. Sorry.

Speaker D: Oh, my first car. My first car was a 1967 Ford Mustang.

Speaker A: Yeah, Nice.

Speaker B: That's the way to go. What was your, uh, childhood dream job?

Speaker D: I actually wanted to be a teacher and a baseball coach.

Speaker B: Oh, nice. What's uh, the best golf course you've ever played?

Speaker D: I've actually played Cypress Point twice.

Speaker A: Oh, nice.

Speaker B: Uh, is there a charity or cause that's near and dear to you?

Speaker D: The March of Dimes was very big on our family because my uncle had polio back in the. In the mid to late 40s. And the whole family at some point has raised money for m. The March of Dimes.

Speaker B: Oh, very nice. Um, and uh, last one. What's a surprising hobby of yours?

Speaker D: Probably cooking.

Speaker B: You like your wife lets you get in there.

Speaker D: Limited. Limited. She'll clean not so much when I cook.

Speaker B: Good stuff.

Speaker A: All right, Good stuff. Uh, Jeff, you ready?

Speaker C: I'm ready.

Speaker A: All right. What is the most underrated challenge in building for space?

Speaker C: Uh, the most underrated challenge is, I would say, uh, protection, um, against cyber threats. Uh, it's just not a sexy area. Um, and so it's an afterthought. And then. And then when you. You're scrambling to actually try to do it. So that's why it becomes a big challenge once. Once it is kind of, you realize that you have to implement it.

Speaker A: Nice. If a no flight were an animal, what kind of animal would it be?

Speaker C: Ooh, that's a good one. Uh, I'm gonna have to go with cool, though. I'm gonna go with a dolphin. I think there's an element of, uh, the intelligence and there's. There's a. There's a beauty element to, I think, what we put together. And then, you know, it's. There's, you know, you're never, uh, you're not, you're not, you're. You're. You're kind of always surprised to see them, even though you signed. Right. Kind of something new. And so that's the innovation side of it, I guess.

Speaker A: That's awesome. Uh, how would you describe the culture at Innoflight?

Speaker C: Uh, the culture is behind national security and the mission. You know, when I founded the business, I came right. You know, I was. Spent 33 years in the service. I was in the reserves at the time, and I came off at duty with a small business before that. But, uh, that's where. That's what driving our innovation. Our innovation in space, really, uh, aerospace, uh, is addressing the national security, the national security threat. So that's a big part of who we are and innovation behind that, though. So it's, you know, I want people here always not be afraid of bringing new ideas and the what ifs to the front.

Speaker A: Yeah, well said. Uh, what kind of roles, uh, are you guys hiring for over the next 3, 612 months?

Speaker C: We still have, uh, strong push. I say still have because it seems like we have them a lot. Is, uh, software embedded. Software. Uh, and now, you know, it's. A lot of our software is in the cyber security industry. Development, touching different pieces of the. Of. Of where it needs to be written in terms of getting a system to do what it needs to do. Um, so I'd say strongest area, software engineering and then, uh, yeah, electrical, computer engineering. Always, uh, always looking for, uh, they complement the software. And a lot of times we find people that like to do both. And that's great too, at this company.

Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. What's, uh, the most valuable trait in a manufacturing partner?

Speaker C: Uh, I would say, uh, it's the openness. Um, and what comes with that is communications and trust. The trust you just build. But the openness is in the communications. Uh, they're who they are and they, you know, they're going to be who they are, but they're open about that. Um, that's one thing Varagon is very good at. It's not like they're trying to be someone just to get our business. Uh, it's who we are, but they're open about that. And that instills positive communication back and forth.

Speaker A: Nice. What's the first job you ever had?

Speaker C: Oh, geez. Um, I worked for my grandfather who was on the board at a high school nearby, uh, the public high school. I went to a parochial high school. Uh, and you helped the different schools get ready over the summer. So summer job, get them ready. I was put on a tractor to cut some grass and I plowed through a window. Still not even forget that. You know, the windows looked low in some of those areas back east. Then I was also like doing, I, I had those, I was scrubbing floors or sanding them. They're wooden floors. You sand them and then you, you shellac them with varnish. I, I, I, I don't know what I was exposed to the fume. I, I, I still, I remember it was like, I don't know why I was given that job, but, you know, you get there, There you go.

Speaker A: It sounds like it builds a good amount of character.

Speaker B: Uh,

Speaker A: uh, what's a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you? Oh, wow.

Speaker C: I mean, I'm, I'm big on schools, uh, especially schools that, uh, you know, that aren't, aren't getting access to a lot of funding, um, trying to, trying to get by. I mean, you can almost say that of a lot of schools. Stem. I like to see advancements in the STEM areas, um, especially in schools,

Speaker D: high,

Speaker C: uh, schools and colleges, but mostly high schools, especially ones that are struggling, um, that are, uh, welcoming students from broader areas, um, diversification, because I think the diversification schools is big too, and, and how any individual, it grows, uh, is part of their community. So that's, that's big on for me. And then underprivileged, um, children too, is, uh, an ability to reach out to them both hands on and assist with any I can.

Speaker A: Very nice. Uh, what is your favorite, uh, Place to vacation with the family.

Speaker C: I'm gonna have to go with Hawaii. I mean we've been to a couple other places too, but I just something about it, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's always, I mean nothing against going to foreign lands, but I like be able to, to just have that relaxed state in the, in the US And Hawaii gives, gives you that, um, it's a go to been to I think all the islands at least twice. Yeah. That's nice.

Speaker A: That's good answer. Favorite, uh, pizza topping.

Speaker C: I wish I could answer this in a healthy way. Why don't I give you one unhealthy and one healthy. The unhealthy is, is, is a really good sausage. I mean I'm picky about it too. So I'm like looking if there's, if there are multiple sausages then you know, I like the something different, not just a, uh, kind of a state of the art stuff. Maybe like a linguista even or something like that.

Speaker A: Nice.

Speaker C: My healthy one is Basil.

Speaker A: Nice. Oh yeah. Underrated topping I think on a pizza too.

Speaker C: Definitely.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, last one. Um, if you could establish the first fast food restaurant on Mars, what would it be?

Speaker B: Um,

Speaker D: wow.

Speaker C: I'm just thinking of everything that we would still need to do to establish anything that supports human life on Mars. So I, I, you know, I've got nothing else to answer but that except for you have to say McDonald's.

Speaker A: Well said. I thought for sure you're going to go with in and out the amount of times we get in and out.

Speaker C: You know, that's true if I, yeah, I guess.

Speaker A: Uh, and then it becomes m, you know, big debate, you know, on the stage because you got east coasters that say five gu guys and you got the, you know, west coast that says in and out. But McDonald's I think. Well said. I think that is a fantastic brown

Speaker C: hard would take to get there. And then of course if you were part of that and then you were welcoming the first fast food chain, I think McDonald's would be dumping a lot more money on your lap than uh, in and out.

Speaker B: So

Speaker A: that stock price would be skyrocketing. Awesome. Well, that's a wrap guys. I want to thank you both for joining us, really, uh, enjoyed talking more about kind of the future of what's taking place in space, but also securing uh, these systems and the hardware as well. And uh, hearing a little bit more about this manufacturing partnership. I think it's one that a lot of listeners will dial into and pull something from because we're seeing it across the board. It's a heavy push for this right now.

Speaker B: Quickly.

Speaker A: Uh, and so, you know, thank you for sharing your story and how you all kind of came together. It's super helpful. And thanks for joining us on the podcast.

Speaker D: Thank you for having us.

Speaker C: Thanks, Tim. Thanks, Mike. See you. Good to see you, Greg.