Generals in the Startup Trenches: Leading Defense Tech from Frontlines to Frontiers | The Pair Program Ep75

Speaker A: Welcome to the PEAR program from Hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad.

Speaker B: And I'm your other host, Mike Gruen.

Speaker A: Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups, and career growth. Welcome back to the Pair program. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, joined as always by my co host, Mike Gruen. Mike, uh, we had a little banter about this earlier, but hockey playoffs are officially upon us, and for that reason, rocking the, uh, the Caps jersey in support of the. The home team. Sorry that the. The Rangers did not make it this year, but the good news is the Caps did and their series kicks off tonight against the Canadiens. So in lieu of the playoffs, you know, I did a little bit of research into just some fun facts, uh, on NHL playoffs, and, uh, one of the fun things that comes up, and I think this might have been a pairing of mine previously, but that the playoff beard is a sacred tradition in hockey. Uh, started in the 80s with the Islanders, uh, which, you know, not. Not as important of a. Of a stat, but I think we

Speaker B: can agree on that.

Speaker A: It's a. Yeah, we'll get on that. It's a, It's a staple superstition. Uh, so my question to you is, will you join me in solidarity to. To not shave until the Caps are hoisting the cup at the end of the. The series in June?

Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely not. I'm not a Caps fan. Don't care that the home team. Now, that said, I will. I have encouraged my kids who were born in this area to be, uh, Caps fans. Um, my oldest has no, no interest in sports, so that was the lost cause. And then my youngest is a Rangers fan, despite my best efforts. Um, so he's in for a lifetime of misery and heartbreak. Um, so, uh, but, yeah, I mean, I do wish the Caps well to whatever extent I can, but, uh, I will not putting a. For them.

Speaker C: You haven't said a thing about the Avalanche, and so therefore I'm not going to participate in your beard growing.

Speaker A: We've all got teams in the hunt right now. Looks at abs, I think. I don't know if you're a Stars fan, Ross, but, you know, Dallas is in it. Um, any, any, any. Uh, are you guys fans? You, you, you, you tune in.

Speaker C: It's the Avalanche.

Speaker D: Yes.

Speaker C: And I'm Colorado, so I. We're all in.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. All right, all right. We all got a horse in the race. Minus one, so.

Speaker B: Minus one. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I hope to regroup with you both in a month or so. We've got beards down to here. Um, good stuff. Well, we've got an exciting episode lined up for the listeners today. Uh, so the theme, you know, what happens when a decorated general steps off the battlefield and into the startup trenches. Uh, uh, we're talking leadership, innovation, adapting to startup life after, you know, decades in uniform. And, uh, to help us unpack all of that, we've got two fantastic guests. Uh, first off, we've got retired Lieutenant General Ross Kaufman, president of a startup, Forward Edge AI. Uh, he's an advisor to multiple startups, A former deputy commander of U.S. army Futures Command. Over 35 years of military service across, uh, a number of major theaters. Uh, Ross, uh, welcome to the, to the pod.

Speaker D: Hey, thanks. Glad to be here.

Speaker A: Yeah. And then joining him, uh, is a comrade, it seems somebody, uh, that you all have, uh, you've been in touch in the past. Uh, we'll get into that, uh, on the episode. But Lieutenant General Eric Wesley, also retired from the army after 34 years. Uh, last served as Deputy Commanding General Futures Command and led the Futures and Concepts center, uh, where he helped write the playbook for multi domain operations. Eric is now the CEO of a startup, Parasanti. Uh, Eric, thank you for joining us on the podcast.

Speaker C: Yeah, and it's great to be here. And interestingly, both Ross and I are probably frenemies in this space, so this will be a good discussion.

Speaker A: I love it. Uh, it's going to get going to get spicy.

Speaker B: Spicy.

Speaker A: Um, all right, so, yeah, before we get tactical here, uh, we always kick things off with a fun segment called Pair Me Up. Here's, uh, where we'll go around the room, name two things that just go together. Uh, Mike, you lead us off. What do you got for us today?

Speaker B: So, uh, gonna go with. I mean, it's kind of trite, a little obvious, but, uh, springtime and birds. Uh, I had the opportunity to spend some time outside this weekend. Um, and uh, it's just, I don't know, we've had a lot of visitors. Uh, we have a, ah, woodpecker that's been coming and all kinds of cool birds coming in the yard and uh, you sort of, I don't know, just something you miss over the winter time and then it's nice to see them. So springtime birds, you guys relaxing?

Speaker A: If you guys, have you ever done like, any, like, like legit bird watching?

Speaker B: So My wife is much more into birding. I have not done, uh, it. But, uh, she. She's definitely into it. She's got, like, binoculars and the. And the whole thing. Uh, she doesn't go like,

Speaker D: Wesley, Eric Wesley, big bird watcher.

Speaker A: Yeah, Eric, you're into birding, huh?

Speaker C: No. You're gonna see the counter view to that in a minute. I didn't want to call Mike out right away, but go ahead.

Speaker A: First Eric's like, damn it. You took my pairing.

Speaker C: Yeah,

Speaker A: I was gonna say spring and allergies. Uh, man, it is bad out here in Tennessee.

Speaker B: Oh, that might be. I mean, I was also gonna. I. I was tempted to go with spring and, uh, uh, outdoor fire pits, but I think I already used that one, so. Uh, because that's what we were doing this weekend as well, so.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Prefer no repeats. All right, cool. Uh, we'll take the birding. Uh, in spring, I'm gonna do a very different, uh, pairing. I'm gonna go with billboards and cheesy law firm ads. Um, I don'. Guys see this, but every time. Doing a couple road trips out here in Tennessee, every time I pass a billboard, there's always some law firm that's promising to, like, fight for you, uh, with the most intense head shot you've ever seen. And just a guy wearing a suit, his arms crossed, maybe some flames in the background or something. Uh, they all tend to be very cheesy, very better call saw kind of branding. But, uh, it's a. It's a random pairing. I. I'm. I'm not sure if it's just com. More common down here in the South. Are you all. All get a lot of these billboards and. And cheesy law firm ads out there,

Speaker C: and Colorado Springs dominates in that space, and they're all ambulance chasers. So I'm with the eye here, Tim. Yes.

Speaker B: Philly. Our drive up through, uh, to Pennsylvania through Philly, It's. It's just lined with it. I think we're spoiled in Maryland and Virginia with, uh, the. There's, I think, rules around the amount of billboards and content. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, not as much. Not as much back home.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker D: Only thing worse is watching local news.

Speaker A: Oh, God. So painful. So painful.

Speaker D: You'll meet you at the hospital.

Speaker A: All right. Uh, good stuff. Yeah, that was completely, uh, opposite of. Of Mike's birding. So let's keep. Let's keep it mixed up here. Let's pass it over to you, Ross. Maybe just a quick intro and your pairing.

Speaker D: Okay. Hey, I'm Ross Kaufman. I live in Austin, Texas. You can call me Roston. It's fine. Uh, no, don't tell me.

Speaker A: Rose.

Speaker D: That's coming back to the, uh, just left the service after 35 years. Eric and I had chewed a lot of the same dirt and a lot of terrible places. And so you'll see us banter back and forth today. Uh, it is spring, as mentioned, and I'm a Kentucky boy. So what happens the first weekend in May every year? Kentucky Derby. What pairs of the Kentucky Derby? Little Mint Julep. So in Kentucky Derby, that's my pairing, boys.

Speaker B: That's a good one.

Speaker A: It's so good. You got to do it with the shaved ice. Don't you like it? Just. It's not the same. Like, I specifically will go out to like, Chick Fil A, just get a huge thing of like, their shaved ice just for the. Just for the juleps. It's so good. Nice, nice. Uh, again, yeah, thanks for joining us, Ross Roston. Uh, Eric, Uh, let's pass it your way. Uh, quick intro in your pairing. Yeah.

Speaker C: Eric Wesley. I'm in Colorado Springs, former Army. And, uh, Ross and I's relationship has been baptized by fire as he mentioned, um, my pairing. I'm not sure if they're a pairing or they mutually support one another, but, uh, NFL football and beaches. And the reason is from September until February, I'm absolutely committed to the NFL football. And then in February in Colorado Springs, I'm ready to get to the beach and I need something to lift my mood after NFL is over. The reason I came matcha, uh, Mike, is because, uh, most of the opponents of my favorite team, the Chiefs, have ah, bird names. So I'm ready to take the birds down, whoever they may be.

Speaker B: There you go. I'll take that. That's fine. I. Yeah, for a second I thought you're like, oh, no, I'm just an avid hunter. Just

Speaker A: must have been a, a tough stretch of years for you as a Chiefs fan, huh? Huh? I mean, you know, how many, how many championships? Uh, the last, you know.

Speaker C: And by the way, I'm not just a, you know, a nice, um, weather fan. I, you know, I first followed the Chiefs back in the early 90s when I was first assigned to Fort Riley, Kansas. And so we had some down years, but these years are very good.

Speaker B: Yeah, very good.

Speaker A: Well, yeah, good for you. I'm a diehard Redskins fan. So I've gone through the, the ups and the downs of, uh, disappointment. Mainly the downs. Uh, but last year, we'll call it, we'll call it a win, uh, up year. Uh, awesome. All right guys, good, uh, uh, round, uh, let's, let's dive into the um, ah, heart of the discussion, the real reason that we're all here. So we're going to be tackling how leadership is forged in combat, shaping that future of defense tech which is also very top of mind these days. Uh, we'll cover everything from leading teams through transition to kind of adapting military innovation for the commercial world, um, navigating bureaucracy, uh, and then building culture inside some of these high growth startups. So uh, let's, let's dive in. You know, both of you guys have commanded at the highest level and now find yourselves leading fast paced tech startups. I'll start with you Ross. You know, how did your leadership style evolve in that transition from a uh, military structure to a lot of the ambiguity that happens in startup world?

Speaker D: Yeah, I think, you know, we all grow as leaders. Uh, you know, Major Kaufman led very, very differently than General Goff. You know, it's almost a uh, uh, grandpa like transition. So that you know, you, when you're a major, you're in, in the fight every day. You're, you know, it's high stress environment, there's more work than you have people for and you are just like pushing an organization uh, towards the objective. And then when you're a general there's never a reason to raise your voice. Right. I mean it's more important to be encouraging. Uh, you're seeing the big picture but you're holding people to standard. And I think that that transition into the startup world has been very helpful for me that you don't have to be a jerk. Right. As a matter of fact we have a no jerk rule in the company. Uh, it's changed. It was the same rule but it was named something different when I was in the army. No jerk rule and just holding people accountable. This is the standard, this is the timeline. Um, and having visibility uh, across the organization, what's coming up, what, who's responsible for accomplishing it and then level setting across the entire company of where we stand. And so I think that's been very, very helpful.

Speaker B: On the uh, no jerk rule, I think my favorite no jerk rule was. And jerk is obviously a substitute. Uh, you can't keep every jerk off the bus but you can control how long he rides for. Um, which is.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we've always been just, you know, just want to hire like nice people, right, Folks that you would want, ah, surround yourself with um, uh, Erica about yourself. You Know how, how would you kind of describe some of that transition?

Speaker C: Yeah, I agree with, um, a lot of what Ross said, but for the sake of discussion, I'd take a different turn on it. You know, there's, there's a myth out there that, um, you know, and I think it's largely sponsored by our images from Hollywood, that there's this draconian culture of the military that allows you to, to use, um, uh, a firm, uh, maybe even caustic form of leadership. And it gets results in the end. My sense is that leadership is leadership and it's transcendent no matter what institution you're in. And the beauty of it is, actually I think the army and military is

Speaker D: pretty good at it.

Speaker C: That is, it's all about relationships. People want and need to be loved. They want to know their boss cares about them. And that aspect of leadership I've found, although the tempo might be different and the size of your institution might be different, but in the end, I think leadership is going to be all about people and relationships. And I've found that to be just as effective in the commercial world.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a common theme that we've heard. Um, regardless of your vertical, the relationships are going to be instrumental in how you raise capital, how you make those first key strategic hires, how you do business development. Um, all of that is pretty synonymous from vertical to vertical. Um, were there certain things that you all felt you had to leave behind, uh, that you either struggled with to leave behind, or things that you felt, you know, in hindsight would have been better to just kind of push, push in the, in the background prior to joining into, uh, the commercial startup arena?

Speaker C: You know, I, I don't know what Ross's view on this is. Um, I think he joined an institution that was a little more mature. When Ross got there, I joined a startup that was very small, very young. One of the things that you benefit from by being in the military is there is culture, legacy and history that, um, in many ways, ah, carries that institution into the decades ahead. And you can tap into that in good ways, but it can be some negative aspects to that too, but you can ride on that and tweak it to your own desires. When you, you're in a startup, a lot of that institutional culture doesn't exist and you, you have to build it. And so that's probably the most fundamental difference I've noticed from the military. You join a unit with, with, with colors that, uh, are stained with blood from wars past. That builds a culture that is always Going to be there for decades to come. When you got a startup, you've got to start building cultural norms and that's probably the biggest difference I've noticed.

Speaker B: What I think is interesting about that is when I think about my, all the startups I've worked at and it is the early days, those being in the trenches, those hard fought things. At the time it sucked, everybody hated it. But then you just sort of look back, a year goes by or whatever and you just sort of look on, back on it with nostalgia and you see the same people that uh, you worked with back then. And I think that what's cool about it is you get to set that like to me that's like a cool part of being at a startup is you get to set those cultural norms and, and then when you have other people join, they hear those stories and now you, you know, they sort of, I don't know, I think there's something cool about building on that and getting started from scratch.

Speaker D: Shared pain for sure.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And Ross, I want your insights on this but uh, it's a good point you make Eric, because for context, right, uh, let's, let's talk a little bit about the companies that you're building here and what stage or size they, they were when you kind of came into the the or. Great. So Eric, we'll start with you then. So uh, with Parasanti, you know what was you the size when you first joined?

Speaker C: Yeah, we had about 15. We downsized, we've got about nine right now. Only to make it more efficient. But when you're talking about a dozen or so people, that's a big difference from 40,000 people that might be part of your organization. So um, yeah, much smaller, maybe higher tempo but much smaller.

Speaker A: Yeah. Ross, what about you with Ford Edge?

Speaker D: Yeah, so we have about 35 employees today and about the same one I joined. We're 100% remote which has its own leadership challenges. Um, I spend time with all new employees and one time an employee said um, I didn't know we had two Dougs. I just thought Doug was really busy. Um, so it's a, it's a whole interesting thing. You know when we talk about culture and growing, there's a tipping point where the new employee is not under, in a startup culture anymore. We're still in a startup culture. Okay. We're pre, a um, we have revenue but uh, that, that revenues from sivers and sitters and things like that. Um, so we're pre product release. Uh, we expect that to Turn around In the next 90 to 100 days we should go to market uh, with our first products. So that's, that's it, it's, it's a bunch of really hardworking engineers that are doing amazing things and uh, we're getting ready to ramp. So that's kind of the stages we are, we're getting ready to go to market.

Speaker A: Yeah. Talk to me a little bit about the you know, the, the customers uh, here. So you know are, are you all. Would you you know, call yourselves a dual use? Are there multiple um, uh, use cases here from you know, commercial to defense applications? This is I guess for both of you all. And then my follow up to that would be yeah, with the, with the team that's kind of you know come together to this point. Um, are those backgrounds a good mix between folks that maybe have experience if it's working for a defense contractor or directly within in defense to commercial uh settings. How is that team comprised and has that been strategic based on who your all's customers are and how the products serving those customers. Eric, I'll start with you.

Speaker C: Yeah, I'll lead off. Um, so what do we do? We do um, data orchestration, workload orchestration and data translation. Specifically at the edge which the reason I say that is it has both commercial and defense applications. I think a lot of startups have got to decide where am I going to start? Where's my first vertical going to be? Is it going to be defense or commercial? Um, clearly the edge space is the untapped. Uh, it's the frontier in many ways. Many companies in our world economy has tapped into the access to big data and the cloud for the last, last 30 years or so. Um, the space that hasn't been exploited sufficiently are those that are in austere environment. So where do you start when you're going to be an edge company? Ah, our thinking and I think we're going to get into this later is you know that the defense space is. There is reasons to go into the defense space. It's harder in many ways. Um, but in terms of the ability to deploy capital for something that is untapped and undefined. M. We've chosen to go into the defense space first. We think later there will be an opportunity to spread laterally and then go into commercial space.

Speaker A: Yeah, bros about yourself.

Speaker D: Yeah. So we're in uh, the encryption business and that's our first product. And second product will be a biotech uh spectrometer on your phone. Uh, which is awesome but um, I military, government, Applications will be about 20% of our encryption, uh, business. We believe 80% will be commercial. Uh, think about every time you are using 256 bit encryption, talking to your bank, insurance, hospital, uh, utility companies, talking to one another, et cetera, it requires an encryption. And because of the way it's architectured now, uh, that is susceptible to a quantum computer. And so our device keeps, uh, you safe from that. So in our company, it's public safety, national defense, national security. I mean those are three, uh, really mantras is that we want to be, we want to make the world a safer place. And uh, so we think that 80%, 20% is a good mix for us. And each one of those has their own challenges. Right? So like to get what's now called high assurance security, used to be called type one or ts. Um, that takes millions of dollars in multiple years. It's really hard for a company to get that. Um, and then there's other certifications that you need for, uh, the civilian side. And we think we're about three months away from our first certificate, so it's pretty exciting. So you'll see us in Walmart before you see us on the battlefield.

Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah, it seems like two different kind of strategies, two different approaches, um, obviously different technologies. So each of which could have their own specific, uh, strategy designed, uh, for why you're going one direction or the other. Um, I'm curious with regards to how you all came into these roles. Um, just kind of talk about that because, you know, it's actually an area that we've spent some time on previous episodes with regards to transitioning from military into startup world. You know, how folks kind of come into those opportunities. Uh, everything from Skillbridge to Commit Foundation. What was it that you all used, uh, to kind of help navigate, uh, those opportunities, and how did you fall into those opportunities? Were you approached? Were you out there kind of, you know, scouring for something that aligned with what you were really trying to do in the civilian world. Ah, Ross, maybe you lead us off with this one.

Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. Um, I stared at tech for every day for seven years, uh, from Detroit and then as the deputy commander. Um, so I was immersed in, in this side of the world and I got to see some really, really cool things. And I was a little hesitant to take a position. I thought, oh, I just wanted to consult. Um, but once, this is the key. Once I met the founder and decided that I'd made a lifelong friend and that I believed in his mission and his focus and the purpose of the company, I was all in. And, um, I just, I didn't care as much about money as I cared about culture and people. Uh, that's really important to me because like, like the no joke jerk rule. I will never work for a jerk again, ever. And so I, I had to take it as a vetting process and really get to know, uh, the founder. And now, you know, like I said, he's a lifelong friend. And, um, it's scary, right, for a lot of generals getting out and for a lot of soldiers getting out that, okay, what am I going to do? Am I going to like it? Well, guess what? Most of the people you knew in school didn't go. They're still not at their first job. Right. Everyone, you know, generally in the first five years after graduation changes jobs two or three times. Um, so I knew if I did, if this didn't work or didn't really like it, I could do something else. And that, that's the beauty of having a retirement. Right? So this is all, this is all about giving back, making the world a better place. And you get paid a little money to do it.

Speaker A: Who, how are you connected to the founder?

Speaker D: Um, he actually, I saw him pitch his product. Um, and so once I saw that, I knew that this was a purpose that I could get behind. Um, look, there's going to be nefarious actors with quantum computing capability. There just are. And if we don't think that they're going to use that to their advantage and our detriment, we're fooling ourselves. And if someone has to solve this problem and I want to be a part of the team that does, and soon.

Speaker B: I think people underestimate how far out or Quantum is going to come here faster than people think.

Speaker D: Two years.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: This was like a startup pitch kind of competition that you were attending and kind of just were enamored with it.

Speaker D: Uh, uh, someone brought him to my office.

Speaker A: How interesting.

Speaker D: Um, and he's like, you gotta see this. It's unbelievable. And I'm like, okay. I went and I looked at it and holy moly. Like, this is. And the best part about this too is this is a joint venture with the NSA in my company. Okay. So the NSA spent years developing this tech, and now we're side by side with, with them in a crater, continuing to march forward.

Speaker A: So given the fact that, you know, you're looking at this as a, you said 80%, probably commercial, 20% defense, that I have that. Right. Um, application. Ah, Was there, um, a strategy in mind? Just kind of given your Your background and your credentials and you know, is that, was that a key part of why this was an appealing, you know, marriage between you and the. And this found.

Speaker D: Um, so the founder is named Eric Adolphe. He's, he's a genius. Okay. And he's an engineer and he's a lawyer. Um, and we're polar opposites personality wise really. Okay. We, we opposites attract. I mean we are uh, what my strengths are, are not his and what his strengths are not mine. And I found that was very uh, attractive to me because we don't need two leaders in an organization that have the same skill sets. Right. I'm never going to code. Right. That's not who I am. Um, but I can, I contribute in other ways, leadership, etc.

Speaker A: Eric, same question to you, um, in terms of how you came about this opportunity with Parasanti. Tell me, tell me a little bit about that journey.

Speaker C: Yeah, so similar to Ross. Um, and I think both he and I have made decisions that are not necessarily typical of retired general officers. But if I go back a little bit, you know, my last job was overseeing the development and publishing of multi domain operations which is seen into um, the army operating concept that's driving the army and largely the, the DOD and, and I and in doing that we knew that there were certain technologies that would be critical. What I found in transition when I retired is that you, you there are opportunities to work consulting and board work in those areas that we're passionate about because like Ross, we're passionate about solving problems. So for example, advanced transmissions on uh, combat vehicles of the future or nuclear power to get energy down to m the battlefield where you might not be able to get your, you know, your resupply of fuel. So you need to be able to generate energy at the point of need. And then the third big area was wanting to solve joint all domain command and control. The ability to uh, ensure that sensors that are the plethora of sensors on a battlefield can operate together and make decisions in seconds or minutes. So I joined this company on a board which is very typical I think of general officers is we, we will join boards or we'll do consulting. And um, at a certain point they came to me and said they wanted to go to the next level. And they said hey, we'd like you to be our CEO. Now it's important to note that when I was at Army Futures Command, I helped stand up uh, the command down there at Austin, Texas before the first commander, General Murray was able to take command because he hadn't been confirmed by the Senate. So I go to Austin, Texas, and the army just decided to go to Austin, which is where Ross is now. Because the history of the army had been that we rely on our institutional labs. You know, the industrial era of the last century was that the military would establish their own labs where there'd be a wired fence around it and we develop technology within those labs. But, you know, in the 1960s, I think 67% of new technologies came out of DoD labs. But the reason we stood up Army Futures Command was because we knew that actually, uh, that the rate had inverted, that 60 to 70% of new technology was coming out of industry. So we wanted to go to places where industry existed, where startups existed, where you had the startup ecosystem. So as I'm the deputy commander standing up Army Futures Command in Austin, Texas, I'm looking out across Capital Factory and these young kids with laptops that start companies and Starbucks with purple hair or whatever. And I'm encouraging them to take risk on the Department of Defense. Take your startup and take risk on us because we're coming to you.

Speaker D: Right?

Speaker C: And so I'm, you know, wearing three stars, I'm in uniform, I'm telling them all this stuff now. I'm, you know, a civilian and, and I am, um, um, a board of Parasanti. And they say, hey, we want you to be the CEO. And um, and that, like Ross said, that's a big risk. You know, all my peers would say, are you crazy? You're like a retired general. You're going to run a startup. And um, and I felt like to some degree, number one, I'd asked all these young kids who are starting companies and telling them to take risk. I need to bat for the fences myself and get into that space and understand it, which was compelling for me to get into it. We're also blessed with a pension as retired military officers. And so I want to put that stability factor. I've got a net that gives me a certain pension if the startup fails. So I'm going to put it at risk on behalf of these technologies that we believe in.

Speaker A: Yeah, um, it's a really neat perspective. Um, yeah, again, it's just like very, very much out of your comfort zone, uh, which is just any startup role at different stages is going to be uncomfortable as you're adapting with your past titles. You know, um, that's. Talk to me about how that helps open doors, but also talk to me about how that can. That sometimes complicate conversations with maybe non defense stakeholders as well.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think, uh, the first question is always, what do I call you? Anything but Eric Wesley. Zing. We don't really know how to act, uh, around you. They are not familiar with what it is. Yeah. So it's in. The onus is on the general to put people at ease. Right. Like, look, my name's Ross. I'm, um, no longer in the military. It's not a big deal. Um, but I think that provides opportunities just by in status wise. Right. Like so people want to talk to you because, oh, the general know what to do or the general, uh, it's probably seen these problems a million times before in leadership or strategy or you know, go to market, whatever it is. Um, so it absolutely is helpful. Um, and I don't, I don't know of any real downside to uh, hasn't negatively affected me that, that I know of or can remember. Um, I do hate having to pick my clothes out every day. Tell you that.

Speaker C: Well, if you've seen his clothes, you'd understand why.

Speaker D: Touche.

Speaker A: What about you, Eric? Where have you seen it? Kind of either open doors or maybe sometimes, you know, be a little bit of a. Has it complicated things ever, uh, on your, on your side?

Speaker C: No, I don't think so. It's a blessing and it's a benefit. You know, I learned this lesson, actually. Uh, I worked in the White House for a few years on a detail and there were only two people that went by a title, um, the top two people in the nation. Your president, vice president, everybody else ran by a first name. And um, so it was a really easy transition. You know, once you go into the commercial world, that's not an issue. Having said that, I think it would be a mistake to not, not to exploit it, but to leverage your relationships and your role in terms of expertise and experience in order to achieve the outcomes what that you're passionate about within your company. So it is, uh, a, uh, blessing. It is fortunate that I can pick up the phone or send a cold call type email to somebody who's in the department and just make available the technology that we're talking about. I'll tell you, you're not always going to get a positive answer, but you've got a hearing and I've done it with Ross. I said, hey, I want to talk to you about nuclear power. Um, and he'll take the call. And that's a good thing. Sometimes we talk about it as a bad thing and there's, you know, doesn't matter party, but there's oftentimes criticism of retired generals, um, being involved in the business space. If they're getting special benefits, that would be true. But if they enable the commander or leader in charge to be informed and have a broader understanding of what's available, I think that would be good. To, to remove that opportunity would be foolish and it would be a national foot shot. So Ross has spent as an example, you know, uh, more than three decades studying the, you know, the art of war. Why would you not want to leverage that understanding and that experience, at least just to get an understanding of what's available in terms of technology. And so I think the rank thing helps to penetrate what is. Can be a very intimidating institution called the department Defense. Anybody who's been in the startup world will tell you it's really super hard to penetrate the bureaucracy of our government in order to get contracts, particularly with a very little country, little company. Um, if we can help penetrate that, that's a good thing for our nation, I think.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I definitely agree. I think there's two things I want to. Eric, I want to touch on that is, um, it's the same as anything. Like, you use your network, you let everybody leverage their leverages that network, whether it's military or not, to get that conversation. But that's all it is. It's just getting the conversation, getting somebody to return the call. It's not, oh, they're going to just sign the contract because General so and so gave me a call. It's just, you know, that's just. That's an insane thought. Right, Exactly.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: Um, and I totally agree. And I've seen it in action. The other thing I've seen in action rots, um, is having met with generals and going in, you know, I worked with a number of military people and then being introduced to the, you know, to generals or retired generals, and being a civilian and not knowing. Being that person who doesn't know what to expect and just how like disarming and how the, like, just the, uh, like, oh, just call me Ross or just call me, you know, whatever. And how it just suddenly changes. You go in with one expectation and the per. You realize, oh yeah, this person's just a normal person. And, and you know, and we're just gonna talk. And it, it's, it's funny how you go into that conversation with the perception and then you, you know, within two seconds you're like, oh, this is, this is totally normal. And then you think about that in a different context. Or if I was just meeting with the normal CEO or whatever, I don't have, I don't go in with that preconception. And so I totally agree with you, Ross, that, that, that really just setting, you know, what do you call me or what do I call you is an interesting thing. And um, and it definitely helps to just set that stage.

Speaker D: Uh, yeah. And then I'll tell you what um, I don't do. I don't have many great ideas, but this is one. Um, whenever I would speak publicly, I would say the barrier to entry is an email to me. And so if a company would email me when I was on active duty, I would meet with them. You know, it would just be a quick 15, 20 minute meeting and at the end of it I would say we're interested, we're not interested. Maybe. And if it was maybe or we are, I'd uh, assemble the experts. And then at the end of that, 30 days later, the army owed a answer back to the company. Yes, no, maybe and no is perfectly acceptable to both parties because the worst thing is the government will take your meeting and you never know what the next step is.

Speaker C: It's awesome.

Speaker D: And uh, it, that, that is, that was very, very helpful to finding new and innovative tech. So I wish, I wish more people did that.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I can also just speak firsthand. Just, you know, from my outreach to, you know, both of you, it was, you know, very forthcoming, very quick to respond with interest to talk about what you're doing. You know, I, I think that oftentimes there might be this preconceived notion that it's almost like, yeah, I've always seen as well, folks that are intimidated to talk to the CEO. It's this fear of being in the presence of somebody at the C level, but they put their pants on one leg at a time just like you do. Um, and so just the forthcomingness that I've seen is you all have been very open to talking about this transition and, and using it as a platform to also, uh, set the stage for the next wave of innovators. If it's coming from military, if it's coming from startups, what have you. Um, so, yeah, kudos on that. And I'd say, yeah, I like that kind of pitch of like we're just, I'm an email, a cold email away from a conversation. Um, what would you say has been maybe one of the more shocking or just really challenging pieces of being in a startup? Uh, you know, it's been a couple of years for you, Eric Ross? It's just been you know, I guess what, it was about six months or so since you've, you've been in this seat. So. Yeah. What, what is it that you would say has been you? Maybe more. One of the more eye opening things about you know, being in this environment,

Speaker C: you know, I think um, this first thing I would say is probably obvious but um, you know, when you're a general officer or even um, a lower echelon, um, commander, there's a lot of infrastructure structure around you that enables you to achieve your objectives. You know, I'm, you know, ashamed to say, you know, that when, when you're getting ready, when you're in a, you know, three star, two star position, you got a staff that's going to book your travel, book your hotel, order your food, you know, you're going to um, all these, you know, administrative things. You might request a brief and there's a staff that's going to bring in a brief to you. Well, I'm the CEO of Parasanti. We've got you know, about nine people right now. I'm building my own PowerPoint slides, I'm booking my own plane tickets, I'm booking my own hotel, I, my, you know, my miles and I'm learning how to manage all of that. And so it's all hands on deck with a startup. Everybody's doing everything. We're you know, mopping the floor and doing the pitch and everything in between. I don't, wouldn't call that shocking. It's just you, you adjust to the environment that you're in and so yeah, I was just building a PowerPoint deck over the weekend and, and that's what you do. And so my, my skills are getting better. They weren't real good when I was on active duty, but I'm learning how to use PowerPoint.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Ross, go ahead. And then I got something to add to that.

Speaker D: Yeah, I, I uh, shouldn't have been shocked by this because I had learned this lesson like a thousand times but shared understanding is really hard. Right. So that we have, we have an email M culture uh, within the company as I've come on board. Like there's a lot of emails going back and forth and half of them were just acknowledgments or you know, uh, so the tracking of all this information became my death ray focus. Like, okay, how are we managing? Not, this isn't even leadership. How are we managing the tasks that have to be done and have a shared understanding across the company? Um, without having 17 meetings a day. And so that was. It's challenging. No one likes a meeting. But the number of meetings that we have in the company requires, um, different forms of tracking information so that we can maintain consistency. And the worst thing you can do to an engineer is put them in a meeting because they're not engineering. It's awesome.

Speaker C: Well, you know, one of the, that's a really important point, Ross. I appreciate you saying that. And sometimes we can look at, uh, tracking information in a very digital manner, but humans are very complex beings. And um, one of the things I've found is, particularly in this generation, I think people have an affinity for email, texts, um, whatever your venue is. One of the things I like to do is just pick up the phone and talk to people. Um, the other thing was the meetings that the company was having, I think for a while was everybody, it's like five year old soccer team, you know, everybody goes to the ball, you know, sorting those meetings out for purpose and identifying what the purpose is. I think, you know, for those that don't like meetings, at least they know what the purpose is and you can keep it to a refined, you know, outcome at some point. But I think that's a really good point, Rob.

Speaker A: Yeah, Mike. Mike has a lot to say about meetings.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Well, I had plenty of the engineers who, you know, meeting is the opposite of doing and all the rest of it. But, but I think to your point, Eric, about making sure that people know what the point of the meeting is. People know, you know what, you don't have to be at this meeting. Like I, there's meetings that I get invited to all the time. Like, I want. Just tell me the outcome. Like I, I don't need to be in the sausage making. Just tell me how it comes out and if there is a problem, like, raise it up to me. And I think that's a very startup thing. Back to your other point about the, um, you know, learning PowerPoint and booking your own meetings or travel and stuff like that. Do you think that that's, Eric, a challenge for people who come out of the military in general at your level, do you think that, that being able to do that is going to be a challenge? I have my bias on that.

Speaker C: No, I do.

Speaker B: I think so.

Speaker C: So it's interesting. Um, it's an important point. So if there's a, uh, retiring general officer who's watching this podcast, they probably want to listen to this point. What I've heard, um, that there is a perception of generals coming out of the military and there's two different types, those that are willing to work and those that aren't. And I think if you want to, particularly the startup world, but if you really want to make a difference in business, you got to be willing to work. And it's a different type of work than you might have been doing on active duty. You got to roll your sleeves up a little bit and get after it. So I think it's, that's an important distinction. Um, but I go back to the other thing you just mentioned. You know, the, the idea of not wanting to be in a meeting, remember I said, is humans are complex and how you make change or get consensus usually happens in the human domain, not in the digital domain. And, and so uh, I would, I would say to, to you Mike, maybe consider the right meetings to be in because if you're not at the table, you're, you can get eaten for lunch, right?

Speaker B: Oh no, absolutely no, no, I'm not saying I don't go to any meetings. I'm saying that there's plenty of meetings that my team thinks I need to be involved in there where, right. I've got to be somewhere else and no, that's for you guys to decide. That's for you guys to make those decisions and keep me informed and I'll let you know. Absolutely. No, I pick and choose my meetings and I encourage everybody on my team to do the same thing. I want, you know, I imagine you guys do as well, right?

Speaker A: Yeah. Eric, uh, you made a point about the, you know, having a big support system, you know, and when you're, as an officer, we've actually heard a lot of this same kind of, of analogies from folks coming from big tech, right, that may be coming from Meta or Google or Amazon, right, where they had support engineers, QA engineers, everybody kind of double checking their code for them and then they make a transition to the startup scene and next thing they know they don't have that same resource or support system. So it's on them to kind of figure that out. And that's a little bit more of just a little perspective from like an engineer's viewpoint versus maybe somebody who's in a, you know, in a C level position. Uh, but I think that that's you know, kind of this common theme. It could be from just coming from a big company at large, a Fortune 500 company, uh, to a startup, you know, a lot of these, these similar transition pain points that, that folks might experience.

Speaker B: I ah, mean I just want to pull on that. Real sorry but like yeah. And Ross, um, but the, I don't think it's a unique thing to coming from the military. I do think that a COO coming from a large company going into a startup has the exact same experience, that same exact experience.

Speaker C: But yeah, I had my wife, I had my wife fooled for years that I didn't know how to order pizza. Now that she knows I'm managing my own flights and hotels, she's calling me out on it. Um, I don't want you guys to think that we're spoiled. That's the way the institution operates that way. It's a big institution, but it's the willingness to work and I think you got to make that transition pretty quickly. Everybody's doing everything in a startup.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, so one more kind of question I wanted to touch on just before we transition to the, the final segment. So, you know, we've all heard it time and time again about, you know, there's a lot of red tape that's tacked, uh, packaged in with defense tech innovation. I think there's a lot of moves that are happening as we speak, uh, that's trying to break down some of these barriers. Uh, it's not going to happen overnight. Um, you know, what have you all seen as some of the more challenging kind of bureaucratic barriers that you faced, you know, uh, in startup world, trying to, trying to innovate.

Speaker D: Yeah, I, I, I'll speak from my own, from my own experience. Startups are challenged to have the Runway that meet the government timeline. I mean, you have to be, you know, I'm sure Eric, you look at it too. But I mean, I'm, I have a litmus test on, on payroll, uh, on a regular basis. Like, oh, do we have six months of payroll? That's my focus. And when a startup is dealing with the government, I mean it could take a year and a half, two years, if at all. And so that, that's the biggest challenge I see is just having, uh, enough money to continue to operate in, working through there, in a perfect word, dual use, you, you do both simultaneously or if you're from Kentucky at the same time.

Speaker C: So,

Speaker D: um, you know, you'd have some multiple revenue streams coming in. Um, that, that would be ideal. But when you're talking specific Miltech, that's not really dual use. It's kind of Miltech for Miltech's sake. It's a long road, so you better have your financing together. Uh, and that you're just raising money constantly for that. Ah, that's my experience.

Speaker C: I'LL give you look, we have to a degree a cultural challenge in the west and particularly United States of America. And I always say that we tend to worship at the altar of anti corruption. Um, the American people, Western culture hates corruption. In other cultures it's a cost of doing business. You know, you're a broker, you get a cut off top. Whatever the case may be, the reason what I just said is important is the Congress has and will, if there's a problem with corruption, will impose a tenfold bureaucratic, uh, constraint regime that forces companies to go through certain processes to preclude the outcome. So, which is different than the commercial world. You can make a deal in the commercial world, but the Hill in many ways has created many bureaucratic barriers that you got to get through. So what does that look like in reality? So for example, the Congress did a great thing and they created this thing called other transactional authorities, OTAs. And so Parasanti, our first big production contract that we went after was going to be based on an OTA where you're looking for a success memo at the end of that. And, and frankly I think that um, Tim, you and I talked about this once before is, you know, we wanted to do, we were going to get a pretty significant contract with the Navy. We're still looking to achieve it. Um, you get a success memo say in August of a given year and they're not ready to go to production for another 18 months. What an OTA success memo gets used. You are essentially authorized, um, to get first crack at that without being competing or bidding that contract. We want to do that for startups. You invested a lot of tech to achieve something. You get the success memo and then it's 18 months before you get to a production contract. Ross just said you got six months of Runway you might be playing off of. And startups can't survive 18 months trying to absorb the administrative bureaucracy of the Department of Defense to get a contract going. And so if we want startups to succeed because they've got really, um, pushing the edge type tech, that, that, that length of, of time has got to be shortened in order for them to survive on the back end of the ota, you want to get them into a production contract. Because I'll tell you what will happen is the bigs will just wait you out because they can absorb 18 months of timeline before a contract hits. And so my, the biggest challenge we faced is we've achieved success, we've performed in accordance with the requirements. You've got a success memoir and Then you gotta wait, and that's a bad outcome. OTAs are good, but you gotta transition it to a production contract to avoid Valley of Death.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's a major talking point we cover on the, on the pod, uh, over multiple episodes. And yeah, we're all hoping and cheering that that's going to be transitioning to a much shorter timeline here with this new administration. But, uh, you know, the verdict is still out. But what it also makes difficult is that, you know, raising capital is not easy for defense tech. You know, until they've seen, uh, you know, some of these companies go public, which has not really happened, uh, in some time since Palantir. It's not, uh, you know, they're, they already know that these are long, drawn out returns. Right. And so raising capital is also a challenge. Uh, and so, you know, you're, you're kind of at a, uh, you know, running out of resources at that point in terms of how you're going to get.

Speaker C: Yeah, you know, there was an executive order that came out on the 9th with this. You mentioned this administration a couple times and I think they want to do the right thing. But the executive order on talking about defense acquisition is important and all of the precepts that are mentioned in that are really good, idealistic outcomes. But until you see traction, until you see tangible impacts that reflect what the President signed. I've seen these executive orders before. I've seen this narrative from prior administrations. This is not a new idea. And we've got to get traction on it if we think it's going to make a change.

Speaker A: Sure. Well, yes. Conversation for another day. That's a, that's a, a lengthy one. Um, well, yeah, we are coming up on the hour, so I'm going to quickly, uh, wrap on the main discussion here and transition us to the, the final segment, which is the five second scramble. Just, you know, quick questions, fast answers, little, little business, uh, little personal. Um, we're gonna. Mike, why don't you lead us off with Eric and then I will close with Ross.

Speaker B: Sounds great. Uh, here we go.

Speaker C: You're making me nervous now, Mike.

Speaker B: No, no, it's fine. Just try to be quick. What makes Parasanti, uh, unique?

Speaker C: Oh, there are very few companies that are really going for it at the edge. The bigs are waiting to see what happens and um, like I said, it's the untapped frontier. And so it's edge capability.

Speaker B: Uh, what company value are you most proud of?

Speaker D: I.

Speaker C: The ability to translate data formats so distinct proprietary sensors or devices can talk to each other without going to the keyboard and coding original code.

Speaker B: Uh, what qualities do you look for in a new hire?

Speaker C: Commitment. Relational. Um, uh, interaction and technical competence.

Speaker B: Uh, what kind of tech roles are you guys hiring for?

Speaker C: Right now we're looking at both AI and uh, data orchestration programming developers.

Speaker B: Nice. What military leadership skill have you found most invaluable

Speaker C: ability to love people.

Speaker B: Uh, what's your comfort food?

Speaker C: Uh, Mexican food. It's all. It's Tex Mex. Yeah, I'm from Southern California. It's gotta be Tex Mex.

Speaker B: Awesome. Of all the places you've traveled to, where would you like to go back to?

Speaker C: Um, you know, I'm on a board of a company called Sapa, and it's, uh, a privately held company in the north of Spain. San Sebastian. The best restaurants in the world.

Speaker B: Nice. What, uh, charity or cause is near and dear to you? You?

Speaker C: Uh, military community youth ministries. Uh, you know, look, there's kid. Military kids are awesome. And this is a Christian faith based group that builds kids character. Um, while dads are gone and deployed. Um, military kids are unique and they're special.

Speaker B: Uh, what's a surprising hobby of yours?

Speaker C: Um, I'm a skier in the winter. And I'm a fisherman in the summer.

Speaker B: All right, all right, last one. Uh, if you are handed a box of everything you've ever lost, what would be the first thing you look for?

Speaker C: I don't lose stuff, Mike.

Speaker A: Well played.

Speaker D: Well played.

Speaker C: Over to you, Ross.

Speaker B: Yeah, good.

Speaker A: Good clothes, Good clothes, Strong clothes. All right, Ross, you ready?

Speaker D: I'm ready. Let's go.

Speaker A: All right, uh, pitch Forward Edge to me as if I were a five year old.

Speaker D: If you want to keep secrets, Forward Edge can help you.

Speaker A: Nice. What is your favorite part of the culture at forward Edge?

Speaker D: Uh, how infectious? Um, the entire company is infected with pride of each other.

Speaker A: What kind of technologist thrives at Ford Edge?

Speaker D: Someone who's hard working, technically capable, gets along well with others and meets their deadlines.

Speaker A: What kind of tech roles are you hiring for over the next six months?

Speaker D: Um, AI engineers, electrical, uh, engineer, uh, are our biggest needs right now.

Speaker A: What's your favorite piece of gear from your army days?

Speaker D: Oh, I've got a great benchmade knife. I still carry it with me.

Speaker A: Nice. What's the worst MRE meal that you've ever had?

Speaker D: Uh, the four fingers of death hot dogs.

Speaker A: Uh, what's the charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Speaker D: Uh, anything with childhood. Uh, cancer.

Speaker A: Favorite city that you've ever deployed to

Speaker D: or deployed to pose on Poland.

Speaker A: Worst fashion trend that you've ever followed.

Speaker D: I used to dress like you're. See his.

Speaker C: I was gonna say do you see his? Last panel.

Speaker A: You said dress like Eric Wesley. We'll accept that answer. And last question. What was your, uh, your dream job as a kid?

Speaker D: I, uh, wanted to be a doctor.

Speaker A: There it is. All right, well, that is a wrap. Uh, thank you both for again just spending time with us and sharing some of your stories. Some, uh, some about your leadership mentality and those insights super valuable for our listeners. And uh, again, uh, appreciate what you guys are building for the future of the civilian and defense tech. So thanks, uh, for joining us on the pod.

Speaker C: He and I are willing to come back and debate any of these things at a future date.

Speaker B: Sounds good to say.

Speaker D: The pod.

Speaker A: We'll close it on that. The pod.

Speaker D: Thanks, guys. Sam.