Building Space Together: Inside the U.S. Space Force’s Push for Commercial Collaboration | The Pair Program Ep80

Speaker A: Welcome to the PEAR program from Hatchpad, the podcast that gives you a front row seat to candid conversations with tech leaders from the startup world. I'm your host, Tim Winkler, the creator of Hatchpad. And I'm your other host, Mike Gruen. Join us each episode as we bring together two guests to dissect topics at the intersection of technology, startups and career growth. Hello everyone. Welcome back to the Pair program. I'm your host, Tim Winkler. And uh, today we have a little bit of a bonus episode, uh, where we have three guests joining us compared to our traditional two guests. Uh, so with that, I'm gonna run this episode solo without, uh, my co host Mike Gruen, who's usually alongside me. Um, but I'm very excited about today's discussion. Uh, we're gonna be diving into a topic that's gaining a lot of momentum, uh, specifically with how the US Space Force is working with commercial partners to build what we would say is like a more resilient and responsive space infrastructure. Uh, and so, as you know, one of the newer branches of the military, the Space Force, has really been focused in on working with commercial space industry, uh, since its inception, I guess almost six years now. Um, and we've, uh, got an all star cast to help us dissect some of these latest innovations across the, the commercial space strategy. And so for our listeners who are, you know, passionate about space and tech and possibly exploring ways to work with the Space Force in some capacity, this is a, this is a good episode for you. Um, so I, I'll go ahead and introduce, uh, the three guests that, that we've got here. And again, this is where I think our format is, is, is great because we're able to bring in a couple of different perspectives to this conversation, some from the government side, some from industry. Uh, so from the Space Force side, we've got Lieutenant Colonel, uh, the director of the Commercial Space Office, uh, Space Systems Command, uh, one of three field commanders under the Space Force, leading, uh, efforts to accelerate commercial partnerships and deliver space capabilities that support the nation's joint war fighter. Um, Tim, thanks for joining us on the podcast. Um, and then alongside Tim, we've got, um, our industry, um, side of the equation. So we've got Holly Bertrand, COO of EXO Analytics Solutions, uh, a company at the forefront of space domain awareness and defense innovation, ensuring safe, secure and sustainable operations in orbit and beyond. And then we've got Dan. Dan, sorry I didn't, uh, cover this at the beginning. Is it separately?

Speaker B: Yes, you got it right. You're one of the very few people.

Speaker A: Yeah, I was going with the soft seats. Dan Seperle, co founder and COO of LeoLabs, uh, a leading provider of, uh, persistent orbital intelligence and real time tracking using AI, uh powered analytics and an extensive radar network, uh, to protect assets and activity in space. Uh, so thank you all for uh, participating and joining us on this conversation.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker C: Thanks, Tim.

Speaker A: Cool. I'll do a quick DOD disclaimer, uh, as well before we dive in, uh, and state that the views expressed herein do not come constitute or imply Department of Defense departments of the Air and Space Forces or US Government endorsement of any company or organization. Uh, and with that, let's, let's dive in. So, uh, in pair program, uh, fashion, we, we kick things off with a fun segment that we call Pair Me Up. Uh, here's where we're all kind of go around the room. We'll, we'll share two things that just kind of go together or, or maybe they don't, uh, but they're personal to you. Uh, I'll kick things off and then we'll pass it around to our gu.

Speaker D: Best.

Speaker A: Um, so I'm going to go with polo, uh, and picnic baskets. And so, uh, my wife and I just recently celebrated our, our anniversary. Went to a, a farm stay, uh, out here in Virginia. And one one of the days we, we, we went to a polo match, which isn't a, a normal thing for us, but we, we thought it'd be a fun experience. So we went to a polo match and um, uh, we were just kind of looking around. You know, they encourage folks to bring some food and drink, uh, to, to the event, but every single family had a picnic basket. Uh, you know, some were old, some were new, some had, you know, different designs on them. And it just was this common theme and we did not. So we kind of felt like we stuck out as newbies to the, to the polo culture. But polo, uh, and picnic baskets is a thing just for anybody that's planning to go to a polo match. You, you might want to think about packing a picnic basket. Well, and I'll throw in an added bonus here, uh, as well is that, uh, everybody seemed to have a bottle of Pellegrino, uh, which was the other theme. So, uh, we had a bottle of wine. But next, uh, time we'll have picnic baskets and Pel Pellegrino to, to enjoy with future polo matches. Um, I'll pass it around to the, to the guest at this point. So Tim, what uh, maybe start with you quick Intro and uh, and your pairing.

Speaker C: Yeah, thanks, Tim. Uh, I'm Lieutenant Colonel Tim Tremello, director of the commercial Space Office here at Space Systems Command. Um, that's a hard pairing to follow up and a good story. Um, I asked my son, who's 12 years old, to give me some ideas for a good pairing in preparation for this when I was talking to him last night. And uh, uh, he had a good one. Um, and since we're in, I'm in California, uh, his, his, uh, his pairing and, and, and also mine is uh, summer and beach because we spend a lot of time here on the beaches of, of California. And uh, he's just starting to get into, into surfing and um, junior, uh, lifeguards and that kind of stuff. So, um, that's a great one for, for me and my family is summer, uh, and beach.

Speaker A: Uh, I love it. Uh, how old's your son?

Speaker C: 12.

Speaker A: 12. Nice. Getting them getting out there early on a surfboard. I like that. Yeah, any, any, any beach you want to plug is like a go to for your family. One of your favorites. Yeah.

Speaker C: So, um, we live in Redondo beach, so that's, that's kind of where we spend most of our time. Uh, right, right down. Uh, it's uh, called Tim Kelly is the Street. It's a great little beach and uh, we spent a lot of time there.

Speaker A: Love it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Summertime and beach, classic pairing. Uh, I've yet to get out to the beach this, this summer, so still, still tracking it as it's hot as all can be right now. So looking forward to getting by some water. Uh, also, yeah. Thanks again for joining us, uh, Tim and, and Dan, quick intro and your pairing.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I'm Dan Separle. I'm the chief operating officer at LeoLabs and one of the founders of the company. Uh, basically I run engineering and I'm an electrical engineer by training. Uh, so for my pairing, um, I'm going with the uh, Concord Airplane and Tyrannosaurus Rex. Um, I have two small boys and basically those are their two favorite items right now. So if I've got one of each of those toys, everything's good. And if I don't, uh, we've got a, uh, major situation on our hands.

Speaker A: I love how the kids are getting brought into the pairing. That's, that's, that's classic. Uh, what, what's the ages of your, your kids?

Speaker B: Uh, four and six.

Speaker A: Okay. Prime time for T. Rex.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. And every single day is almost like a professional wrestling match in our living room. The two of them are close enough in age.

Speaker C: The toys and the boys go wrong.

Speaker A: I, I've got a two and a half year old, uh, daughter and she's, she's also very fascinated with dinosaurs. And uh, she's got these little miniature ones that she'll um, put into a small cup of coffee and she makes dinosaur coffee. She thinks it's a, it's a, it's a big hit. But uh, yeah, the T. Rex is, is, uh, is one. I feel like every kid's kind of like drawn to just. It's one of the cool, one of the cooler dinosaurs. Oh yeah.

Speaker B: It seems to drive a ton of fascination.

Speaker A: Absolutely. We're excited to have you here. Uh, and then we'll kick it over to Holly. Just a quick intro and your pairing.

Speaker D: Okay, great. Yeah, like you said, I'm Holly Bertrand. I'm the chief operating officer. I'm one of three founders of X Analytics Solutions. And um, you know, when you have a startup, you end up working all the time. And to keep the company going, we had what we called our day jobs and we had our night jobs. So in the day we would work for customers so we could make money. And at night we worked on the tech so we could innovate and create our commercial solution. So you know, my pairing is late nights and big ideas because really all the best ideas came after midnight. And so, um, we're definitely not just I'm anti morning, but all the founders of the company were anti morning. We come in late, but we work, you know, till 2 or 3 in the morning, you know, every day. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think a lot of uh, our listeners could relate to that. Uh, we have a lot of startup founders and I know myself too would, you know, put, put myself in that position where it's like, you know, you're, you're never really off. Uh, you know, it's, it's kind of always on. And we had, we had a pairing that was, I thought was interesting because, uh, you know, again it's, it's a lot of these folks that kind of like run through like they'll check their emails at night and they, uh, one of the parents was like checking email at night and a glass of bourbon. Uh, and so I didn't know was there like a, is there a drink or a snack that kind of helps you get through some of those late nights that you're working?

Speaker D: No. And kind of the interesting thing about it is all three founders, none of us really drink. Glad to know. It's just Enterprised off of physics. Right.

Speaker A: Well that keeps a clear mind for the ideas. That's good. Uh, well, again thank you for joining Holly, and uh, excited to dive into the heart of the conversation. So we'll put a bell on the um, Pair Me up segment and transition into the main discussion here. And like I mentioned, we're going to talk through the Space Force and how they're working with commercial partners. Uh, we've got a lot to cover. Um, so let's, let's jump in. I want to first set the stage for our listeners and begin with you Tim. Uh, maybe just walk us through the commercial space strategy a little bit around the vision behind it and how the Commercial Space Office kind of ties it all together.

Speaker C: Yeah, thanks. Absolutely. Um, so there's some interesting things going on around the world. Um, and I'll kind of paint a little bit of a picture of why the Commercial Space Office exists and sort of why it's so important, especially right now. The first thing is we have, um, uh, near peer threats, enemies who are investing heavily into their space technologies. And not only that, we're also seeing increasingly that they are investing in commercial capabilities. Um, uh, and so that's one piece, right, is the threat continues to evolve, uh, and it's accelerating faster than ever before. Um, now on the other end of the spectrum, our, uh, commercial partners in the United States, uh, are making incredible progress in developing commercial space technologies. And I, I saw some stats, um, just recently that, you know, the global space economy is like a half a trillion dollars right now. And 80%, um, roughly 80% of that total number is commercial space. And so um, it, as we see the threat escalating and evolving and being more aggressive, uh, in space, uh, and space now being considered fully a war fighting domain. Uh, and we see on the other side our commercial partners, uh, who are so motivated, um, we're doing those late nights to come up with big ideas, uh, and who are actually making progress on delivering capability, uh, making um, such huge investments into these space capabilities. I, um, think it would be foolish for the US Government not to fully take advantage of everything that's out there. Uh, and so what you've seen recently over the last couple years is the Department of Defense and the Space Force have signed out commercial space strategies that have a lot of detail in them. But effectively they say we need to go integrate these commercial capabilities into our DoD space architecture. And that's the mission of the Commercial Space Office. Um, we've got to take advantage of commercial, uh, innovation. Uh, we need to not only take advantage of what the commercial companies are doing today and what they've already delivered, but the rapid level of recurring investment and innovation happening day after day after day. Commercial just moves so fast, uh, faster than the government. Um, and in order to keep up with and defeat the threat when we need to at the right time, we've got to take advantage of commercial capabilities.

Speaker A: Yeah, I want to kind, ah, of just stay in the, you know, in the Space Force lane here for a minute before we jump to the industry side, um, and just kind of asking a couple additional questions here. I'm always curious on how does the Space Force kind of decide which capabilities to source from commercial partners versus what you want to try to keep in house?

Speaker C: Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, and it's a tough one. Um, so a couple years ago we rolled out, um, sort of, um, a mantra, if you will, of exploit what we have, buy what we can, and build only what we must. Really what that means is there's a lot of data out there that um, either our organic Systems on the DoD side or the commercial systems we have access to, uh, are already producing. So are there insights that we can glean from, um, some of the data that frankly has fallen on the, the cutting room floor. Um, so that's the exploit piece and I can talk through a couple examples if interested there. Um, on the buy what we can part is there are a lot of commercial services out there, and why not buy those as a service? There are a lot of commercial components out there, and why not buy those and lower the tech risk, schedule risk, cost, risk of some of our programs, um, and then build only what we must is really the idea that if, if we still have requirements out there that can't be met by some of those commercial systems and if they're that important of requirements, because not all requirements are created equal. If those requirements that are left over are that important, then we should go build uh, a bespoke custom DoD system. But we might realize that, you know, a 70, 80, 90% solution using predominantly commercial capabilities actually gives us a min viable product to satisfy the mission need. And uh, it allows us to harness that innovation that I talked about.

Speaker A: Yeah, and we'll dive deeper into some of those different programs, uh, underneath. You know, comso. A little bit later in the conversation, I want to jump over to the industry side of the house, hear from our other guests, uh, who are building companies and technologies that are satisfying some of these Space Force missions. Um, so let's switch it over to both You, Dan and Holly. Um, and uh, I'd like to begin by having each of you do a little bit of an expansion, more on what you're building at your companies and those problems that you're solving. Dan, let's start with you, uh, and LeoLabs. Give us a little bit of the breakdown of LeoLabs and then you can maybe segue that into how you first kind of got involved with, with the Space Force.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, you know, at LeoLabs, uh, we got our start in 2016 and we got into the business because of the growth in low Earth orbit. You know, at the time cubesats were a new thing and the fear was there were going to be so many. The skies would be darkened with cubesats and uh, the numbers were growing so fast. How do you possibly keep up when you have to build, um, this kind of large ground, uh, infrastructure? Uh, and um, just in terms of numbers, in 2019 there were about 800 satellites operating in low Earth orbit. There's now 10,000. So we've seen tenfold growth in the last six, uh, years or so. And uh, so it's just been incredible. It's a sea change. Basically, Moore's Law has come to space. The number of satellites launched is doubling every 22 months. And when you see uh, an exponential growth like that, it kind of catches you by surprise. It's a small amount of growth in the beginning and then just appears to explode. So, um, so we got to start to address that. You know, we said, hey, if, um, if this is coming. And at the time, you know, when we got started it was projections. But you know, part of doing a startup is you take a bet on a, ah, big idea or a big problem. And so we said, hey, we're going to take a big bet on LEO and get a system in place that uh, would allow a number of different groups to keep better tabs on what's going on in low Earth orbit. So, um, the intent was to help us, uh, Space Force, uh, NASA, now Department of Commerce, uh, and also our allies and a lot of the commercial operators. And just some of the additional complexity is in low Earth orbit, it's very disorganized. There's no national airspace, there's no national waters, there's no national boundaries. Everybody's in the mix together. Everybody's circling the earth every 90 minutes, uh, and you're going all sorts of different directions. So just having very precise, timely information about what's happening is extremely important. So our foundational tech is a Set of radars, big kind of, um, soccer field sized installations that we've been building around the world. Uh, and then we do a layer of software and analytics on top of it to pull out the important changes. You know, when you got 10,000 satellites, it's like needle in a haystack. So we pull out that needle and then get it off to, uh, whoever needs to know about that right away.

Speaker A: Yeah. And real quick, how did you all, ah, first kind of get involved with Space Force?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, actually, um, I got involved back in the Air Force, uh, uh, Space Command days. Uh, they actually got me started in the industry, um, looking at how do we better track these satellites. Turns out there was some National Science foundation technology radars to study the northern lights. They were accidentally tracking satellites, throwing the data away, and we went, aha, uh, that's the tech. And so then we decided to commercialize it and it was it. I think this is, uh, an uh, important role industry can play. At the time, it wasn't clear, you know, hey, this uh, is the right thing to do, that we need a big network of radars for all these satellites in low earth orbit. So we said, hey, we can help the US Government expand the trade space. We'll go out and build this and demonstrate it's the right thing. And if it is, then the US Government can use it. And so we went out, um, and started, uh, building radars with venture funding and very rapidly started engaging with U.S. space Force in the spaceworks programs, um, in, um, executing on a STRATFI contract to build another radar. And we're, uh, expecting to execute on a TACFI contract here to, um, add some special software capabilities. And so it's just been a really good, uh, productive partnership with Space Force over the last few years.

Speaker A: Love it.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And we'll, we'll dive a little bit more into, you know, some of the, you know, the areas of stratified tac fi, because I think that all kind of plays well into this conversation at large. Um, and, uh, and, and real quick, is that a picture of some of the satellites behind you?

Speaker B: Yeah, Our radar in, uh, the Azores, uh, islands in the Atlantic part of Portugal. And uh, so this, uh, radar, you know, tracks a thousand satellites an hour, all times a day coming overhead.

Speaker A: Wow. Very cool. Uh, Holly. Yeah. Let's, let's uh, hear a little bit more about Exo Analytic and again, how that journey, uh, for you all kind of getting into, uh, uh, the work with Space Force.

Speaker D: Yeah, sure. Um, so we started our company in 2008. And we came from a missile defense background. And we had the original idea of just going out on the balcony of our office with some telescopes and we collect some data, and that would help make our missile defense algorithms better. And, uh, out there, I think it was night two or three, we saw some satellites. We started thinking, oh, we could track satellites. And we did actually not intend to build a commercial system. First we thought, oh, we could, you know, sell to the Air Force at the time we get. Sell some of this information. And that wasn't very successful. And we were not really good at writing proposals. Back in those days, we didn't know exactly how to do business. We're all physicists. So we just started collecting more data. More data. And we started buying more telescopes and fielding them ourselves. And commercial customers were then our first customers. And so we eventually built out enough of a commercial presence. Why, we could go to the Air Force now, Space Force, and say, hey, look and see what we've done. But I mean, in the beginning, if we saw a disaster or we saw something interesting in space, we just put it up on YouTube because we thought that would get the government's interest. We had no idea who to talk to. So do you think these kind of m. More direct programs now, like Front Door and other commercial programs, they're good, they're good ideas because otherwise commercial companies, people that don't really know how to do business with the government, it's really daunting. Uh, our system was just to go and talk to all kinds of people until we found the right person. Or they would come and talk to us and say, like, what have you put on YouTube? And they were a little shocked. So, you know, this kind of more direct method would have helped us in those days.

Speaker A: Yeah, I love that origin story. Um, I want to just kind of pull on the thread of, you know, building, you know, for. For the government. So, you know, and question for both of you, uh, Dan and Holly, so how is your approach to, you know, product development or service delivery? How has that changed since engaging with, you know, defense customers at large?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, um, for us, uh, we set out to build the baseline radar network just to establish, uh, our catal. All the satellite activities in space, um, and the engagement with the Space Force lately have enabled us to prioritize certain mission areas. Uh, you know, so when we got our start, in a way, satellites were still pretty simple. You put them in orbit, they essentially drift around the world. You know, they do their main mission. That's kind of it. Nowadays there's all sorts of advanced maneuvering, even dog fighting in space and docking and satellites spawning other satellites. Launches are more complex. You can put 100 satellites on a. Sing it. Ah, frankly it's kind of hard to know what is the most important thing to attack next versus a problem that delayed. And um, you know, Space Force has provided some great guidance around. Hey, you know, we need to keep track of these highly maneuverable satellites. We also need to know what has been launched into space, you know, as quickly as possible. And that's enabled us to uh, guide our radar development and really focus in on some of those areas. And interestingly, they're now also benefiting our commercial customers. These commercial satellite operators, they need to know the same thing because all these activities are happening right next door to all their satellite operations. All their satellite operations.

Speaker A: M. Yeah. Holly, how about yourself? How is that delivery, uh, or development kind of changed since kind of making this shift into more of the Space Force support.

Speaker D: I mean I think messaging is really different when you're talking with, you know, talking with the Space Force versus talking with a commercial customer. So with a commercial customer you'd show them, oh, here's where you're located here, here's what's happening around you. And, and they kind of get that immediately. Sometimes when you're dealing with government customers you have to really connect back to. So what, how does this impact the war fighter and thinking in that way? I think that's a different kind of way to think and uh, a different kind of way to message.

Speaker A: Yeah, I'd like to uh, you know, start to dive deeper into some of these different programs and, and you know, how they're kind of playing out in real time. Uh, so I'm going to kick it back over to you uh, Tim, and uh, maybe just begin by giving us first off a quick overview of some of the different programs under COMSO and uh, so our audience can better understand, you know, how these opportunities could, you know, kind of fit together where they see maybe an outlet for them to get involved.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so we, we engage with commercial companies really I like to say from, from, you know, for lack of a better term, cradle the grave. And what, what I really mean by that is um, our front door that was mentioned previously, uh, is really a web interface that uh, commercial companies, uh, new, you know, new space companies, non traditionals, uh, who haven't done work with the government before or don't have government, uh, um, that they can actually register in an online, uh, web platform and then someone from the Government will reach out and get to know their company, um, understand what type of uh, technology that the company is building and then align that capability and technology and business to a ah, Space Force mission. And then if there's a good alignment between what a company is building uh, and what the government needs, um, then the front door team will actually make that connection. They're kind of like a switchboard, uh, to the right program office or program executive officer, uh, or to the Spaceworks team depending on maturity, um, to get them engaged and actually connect them so that they can talk about ah, that next level detail on requirements or mission needs and maybe even some upcoming opportunities, uh, for ways that that company can get you know, a government contract or, or um, compete for, for other work with the uh, with the US Government on the other end of the spec. Oh, go ahead.

Speaker A: Oh, just real quick on that. Um, you know, when we think about early stage, you know, startups, you know what is there a, a minimum requirement with regards to where that product needs to be in the life cycle? Prototype, does it have an MVP already in place? I guess. Where, where is that threshold in terms of you know, not wanting to waste you know, your all's time or their time to get aligned?

Speaker C: Question? Yeah, there's no, there's no minimum bar. Right. So we see companies who register in the front door, um, who are very mature, uh, both on a technology standpoint but also from a business standpoint. Uh, on the flip side of that we see companies that um, maybe are one or two or three person teams and they maybe only have an idea or a concept for what they want to build. They might, might not have any uh, investment, outside investment, uh, outside the company, um, from either private, uh, investment or from the government yet. Um, and so we see sort of the full gamut and we encourage that. Now what I will also point out is that um, just because you register with the front door does not mean that you immediately, immediately get a government contract. Right? That's not really the intent. Um, the idea is you're registering with the front door, we're doing some matchmaking and we're, we're maybe even guiding that commercial company in terms of their development to say your concept is good, your, your business, um, you know, maturity isn't quite there yet to maybe you know, bid on some of these opportunities. At least from our, our assessment, um, you should think about tackling this specific mission requirement as you build that technology. Make it true dual use. Here's some ideas on how to do that. And so the support and Sort of service frankly that our front door team provides to the commercial side is not always in connecting them with a program office or um, uh, connecting them so that they can go get a contract. Sometimes it's just giving some advice on how to continue to work towards a dual use capability. Um, and we find that a lot of the commercial companies are hungry for that kind of guidance, um, just as much as they are for resources in terms of funding. Yeah, um, I'd say on the other end of the spectrum, on the commercial space office, front door is just one piece. Um, we've got several lines of effort and several projects. I'll talk about one more and it's one that we started about a year ago, um, give or take. Uh, it's called the Commercial Augmentation Space Reserve or casr. Probably seen some in the news about that. And this is for very mature companies, companies that have uh, assets built and are providing quote unquote operational capability today. And what we're doing there is we're setting up contracts with these companies so that we can turn them on very quickly, uh, and augment or replace government organic, uh, uh, space capability using commercial services, um, if we end up in a conflict or crisis. So as an example, um, uh, something kicks off, uh, somewhere in the Middle east and we need to augment our current organic and commercial capabilities with additional um, commercial services. We would turn on one of these contracts so that we can, we have a very quick mechanism to be able to introduce that capability into the fight. So one end of the spectrum, front door, we're talking to new space startups, non traditionals. The other end of the spectrum, we're talking to very, very mature companies who can actually help us fight and win wars today.

Speaker A: Yeah, very cool. It seems like, you know, when you think across like a startup's life cycle, you know, they're trying to plug and play where they fit best, you know, trying to get that alignment based on where they're at and uh, in their growth. Um, and uh, it sounds like you guys are kind of catering to. Yeah, the earliest and the most mat. Uh of companies. Um, we'll build on a couple of those other areas too. But I want to you know, flip back over to the industry side. You know, what, what programs have you all seen, uh, fruitful or you know, just talk through a little bit more of like how you first, you know, became aware of those opportunities and you know, some of the, the steps to you know, to press forward, uh, in delivery. Um, I'll start with you, Dan.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So um, some of the things that have been most useful for us have been getting directly connected to uh, operations. So ah, as an engineering team we can dream up a lot of interesting capabilities, but where it really becomes useful is um, when it starts delivering value, uh, when we can start delivering useful uh, information on a day to day basis. Um, so one of the um, uh, the Space Force programs that we've been supporting for a long time is the jco, the Joint Commercial, uh, Operations Cell and basically providing reporting on satellite activities in space. Again, you know, what was just launched into space, who's doing you know, odd or interesting things. Um, and you get into operations and it just, it provides a level of clarity. You know the kind of um, uh, uh, the ideas, all the good ideas kind of quickly sort out into two categories. There's the good ideas that are actually getting used and there's the good ideas that just, they aren't touched. Uh, and so you can very rapidly kind of swing your team around to focus on what is really being used and uh, get even better at it. Um, we've seen just some interesting activities in the last couple years. Um, one of the most interesting to me has been uh, China had launched a set of uh, about five satellites and they were effectively doing dog fighting in space. There was a group of three and

Speaker C: a group of two.

Speaker B: Um, this wouldn't have happened a few years ago. You know, it used to be, it was a billion dollar government space program to build two satellites that would fly close to one another. You know, and now we've got five of them operating together. Um, and uh, what that did for us just kind of seeing that activity and reporting on that activity is it really invest in analytics for that use case proximity operations. And you know we already had some, hey, era two satellites that are coming closely close together. You know, everyone should be alerted. Um, but now there's a additional set of tools where we can say hey, you know this one is maneuvered, these two are projecting to come close together. It looks like they could have docked. Um, so it's just kind of rapidly able to zero the team in on that, get a lot more sophisticated and then start bouncing it off the users, uh, to get feedback. So that sort of engagement and being routed kind of over to the operational people quickly is really important for a small company.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's really helpful insight. Um, Holly, from your side, you know, you, you kind of, you know mentioned front door. But any, anything specific that you want to talk through in terms of what you found helpful or, or even you Know, a little bit of um, you know, any barriers to entry that you, that you ran into.

Speaker D: Yeah, I think when, when we started our telescope network, what, 15 years ago, we were really on the, on kind of the front edge of um, ah. And there was not a lot of acceptance of even the idea that you would use something the government hadn't developed themselves. Right. And so, you know, we collected, we have 400 telescopes, we collect data from that 24 7. And in order to manage all that data, we've built a really sophisticated backend and we've built a really sophisticated front end to actually analyze that data and you know, deal with this just massive amounts of volume of data that we have. And what we've seen from the government is that, you know, they've started into really in their minds they can completely understand accepting, you know, taking in the data. And that's an area that we're quite successful in selling the data itself. They still envision that they'll build back end and front end tools for themselves. Um, and that's kind of the next sort of hurdle where we like to see the government see that companies like US and LeoLabs already had to build all of that to deal with our own data and to process, you know, and to operate 24 7. So I think there is still some work to do in getting um, customers, potential customers to see that there's even more that they could accept from commercial companies. You know, they've gotten to where they say, okay, yeah, I understand I could buy data, but could I really trust someone else? Software tools, could I really trust somebody else's back end processing? And all of that already exists on the commercial side. So I think there's still kind of work to do in getting um, customers is over. This initial reaction of well, if I didn't develop it, I don't know if I can trust it. And learning to trust things that are in the commercial market is important.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, Tim, I'd love to kind of like pick, pick up on your side of, of you know, that kind of topic at large. You know, just how, you know, you all are thinking about, you know, coverage or data sharing and uh, scalability and things of that nature too. And, and maybe to Holly's point, you know, how, how are you all receiving that on your all side?

Speaker C: Yeah, I think Holly makes a really, really good point is, is there are, there are parts of the government that, you know, for, for good reason have a little bit of skepticism on, on how much we can trust commercial data. There is a little Bit of a factor of, you know, if it wasn't built here, um, you know, can we really trust it? Um, and I think, you know, one of the powers of commercial is that you don't have just one system, one provider, one capability that is giving you these insights. You know, if we're talking, let's talk specifically space domain awareness, the, the ecosystem on the commercial side is becoming so robust that if I have multiple commercial partners telling me that something potentially nefarious is, is happening in orbit, um, now I have multiple sensor types and multiple organizations, businesses who are telling me that it's happening. So my likelihood as a government person to trust that data goes up significantly. So I think one of the important parts that we don't talk about probably enough on integrating commercial is you don't want to just go with one sort of race horse if you will. You want to have a stable of, uh, competitors, uh, and innovative companies that all bring something to the table and all might provide some interesting insights from a different perspective using different systems. But if they all come to similar or the same conclusions, our trust factor goes up significantly. The other piece, I would say even for an individual company, uh, is um, if you show us those analytics that you've done and we take a deep look at it and you kind of prove it to us, right, that, that what you're seeing, um, again sticking with the SDA example, um, that what you're seeing is real, um, and even showing us some of the sort of the, if you will, the behind the scenes, here's how we came to that conclusion. That's going to go a long way in convincing some of our government teammates that they can really trust the data. Because at the end of the day the government mission, uh, results in saving lives, losing lives, um, and getting the mission done. And so we do have to be able to trust data, we have to be able to trust our commercial partners. Um, but I think we're starting to make a lot of headway, uh, in that respect.

Speaker A: Go ahead, Dan.

Speaker B: Yeah, if I might build on that, um, I think we're at a really interesting point in the space industry where uh, my impression is the industry as a whole is iterating on business models on the government side and also on the commercial side. So it was really exciting to see um, these new strategies come out about uh, buy what you can build only what you must, um, uh, because to me that's in effect a new business model. Uh, let's try to push the use of innovative new technologies and new business models and New companies to the forefront. Um, and then on uh, the commercial side there's been uh, this push to bring a lot of these new uh, models like um, the subscription business models and the contractor owned, contractor operated, government owned, contractor operated, um, models and kind of apply them to different mission areas, different technologies, uh, and the like. And it's only accelerating. So I just uh, maybe just kind of the macro trend here is we're seeing a lot of innovation not only on the tech side, but also on the business model side that I think provides uh, you know, U.S. space Force and the government users a lot more options, uh, than maybe they'd had in the past. And in some ways all this is happening because timelines are compressing. You know, all of a sudden there is the need for the new tech. Um, there's also a need to refresh tech to keep up uh, with the latest trends in the industry. Uh, and it is a place where small companies uh, can shine. You know, we can kind of quickly um, iterate and do some field tests and prove out new tech and bring it over uh, to the user for evaluation. So it's just, it's an exciting time in the industry.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think it's also something that is, you know, it's almost like a la carte based on the domain. Right. Because you, you think through of like you know, uh, ground or maritime or, or air. Right. There's just so many different elements. When you think about autonomous systems and uh, you know, drones obviously come to mind, right. Where it's like we don't need expensive drones, give us low cost drones. Right. So that means like we need you know, high volume manufacturing of you know, lower cost equipment here. So it just kind of changes the game of manufacturing partners at large and, and how they, they deliver on you know, what's really needed for that specific domain. Which could be very different than you know, manned surface vessels. Right. Where it's, you know, just about in

Speaker B: that observation actually is, is driven one of our latest product, uh, development cycles which is the whole world is going to these massively proliferated unmanned systems. And for space domain awareness you actually need the same thing. So we've been developing this uh, scout radar technology, basically containers or truck based space radars that you can get out in large numbers, uh, because there's so much activity in space. And also it's becoming very relevant to the ground. You actually need these radar systems all over the world and you need to be able to rapidly move them uh, to counter the evolving threat that didn't used to happen in the space domain awareness world. It used to be you'd have fixed sites, only they'd be very exquisite. And you kind of knew what was going to, how technology development and deployments were going to roll out over the coming years, over the coming decade. It's just no longer the case. And I find it quite exciting because it's like space domain awareness is becoming relevant not only in orbit, but also to what's happening on the ground. You care about what, um, you know, intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance satellite is coming overhead now. You care where it is on the far side of the Earth as well, because 45 minutes later it's going to be overhead, you know, and we're also seeing fractional orbital bombardment systems, satellites unfortunately, that can basically come out of orbit and affect things on the ground. And then you've got jamming from space. So it's like space used to kind of be a separate thing. Now it's tactically relevant to what's happening down on the surface of the Earth. And that's driving a whole new generation of systems and ways of using systems.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's just happening so fast too. Right. And so I think it's a no brainer of having to tap the industry side of things to move quickly. And so I think that's why this conversation super, super relevant. Um, I had a question, uh, for you, Tim, in terms of, you know, the Space Force's approach to, uh, commercial engagement. Do you find it, um, I'm just curious on how it differs across other branches of the, of the military. And you might not know this, just, you know, not having, you know, maybe army, you know, uh, experience or whatever it might be, but have you seen, you know, historically, like any, any uniqueness to how Space Force approaches commercial engagement, uh, as opposed to maybe other branches of the military?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I think you're seeing more and more push to leverage commercial technology really across the entire Department of Defense. There have even been some, a couple executive orders that have come out over the last few months that really urged the department, uh, to think commercial first as we're um, procuring our systems and weapons, um, for the Space Force, because we are a fairly new service, um, and not only are we young, but we're also still pretty small. We have a little bit more flexibility, I think, to be, um, sort of creative in how we field new systems. And because we're so small and so young and because the commercial space sector is just frankly booming over the last few years, um, I think it's given us a real opportunity, um, to think uh, about commercial in a, in a slightly different way. And I already talked about the threat that's evolving and how we really don't have time to go build uh, custom DOD systems like we have in the past. We have to take advantage of that commercial boom, uh, or else we're not going to win the next war.

Speaker A: No. Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker B: I was wondering if I could one uh, additional thing along the lines of um, kind of the transition to commercial, the use of commercial systems. What we found really helpful was as a company when we got connected to operators that started talking about their desires. But very specifically like um, you know, in the past it would have been only big R requirements. You know, I have this formal document. This is exactly what we need. There's a multi year process to fulfill it. Um, but in this new reality in space where everything's changing so quickly, the operators often have a set of desires that is much more up to date than say the big R requirements. And um, just in the last few years we've seen them get very specific. So like for us the probably the first concrete desire that was really expressed was revisit rate. How fast can you check in on this satellite? You know, a satellite started doing something screwy. I need to know about it and I need to know about fast. And we just had somebody at one point come to us and say I need you to tell me about it at least six times a day, you know, so roughly, um, every four hours. And that was great because all of a sudden it was a, it took us from, hey, we've got a radar network that can do a lot of good. And hey look, we got this data to, oh wow, look, hey, for these specific satellites we can give you six or actually even now it's like 13 times a day. Check in on the satellite and give you the latest information about it. Um, uh, the connections made by Tim's

Speaker A: team,

Speaker B: uh, really helps because these are the people who can actually get companies like us over to the users who are going to have these things in these pain points in the back of their mind and they're going to be able to say this is exactly what I would really like to have. I don't have a formal document, but when I'm in my day to day job, like that's my pain point.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker D: And building off of what Dan said, I think we've also seen the government evolve on the contracting side. So there used to be like he said you'd get this requirements document. It would have sometimes just, you know, they wanted it purple and they wanted it with polka dots and they would have no idea that if they could just have it in pink instead, it'd be so much cheaper. And so now they're, they're coming out and they're saying, hey, tell us what you can do and how much what you can do will cost. And that I think is a lot more effective at getting products that are going to be, you know, cutting edge and cost effective.

Speaker A: Yeah, that communication is, is key. Um, well, I know we're coming up on a little bit of a, a, a, ah, time crunch here, so there's a couple of things I just wanted to close with before we, we wrap into a final, our final segment. Um, and, and Tim, I don't know how much you can talk through on, on this, but I, you, you referenced it earlier that you know, the Space Systems Command, you recently held a war game, uh, with some commercial partners to kind of simulate some of these real world scenarios. Anything you want to share from that kind of just coming off of it, um, what you can share about it that you think is exciting about how this will impact innovation for Space Force?

Speaker C: Yes, this is what you're referencing as part of our casr, uh, efforts. And uh, we've done two war games uh, to date for kasr. The first one was on satellite communications, commercial satellite communications, um, back in the spring. And then most recently just a couple weeks ago, we did another war game for space domain awareness. And what I was, I was at that event, um, and I walked away with a couple things. So one, um, our commercial partners are extremely, uh, capable, eager and ready to help us, um, if we're in a crisis or conflict, um, you know, win the next war. Uh, the second piece was um, my gosh, uh, setting up some of these constructs for how these contracts would be turned on is not simple because it really gets to the heart of integrating commercial capabilities into the architecture. There's no easy button for doing that. We have to make sure that the warfighter is aware of what capabilities exist out there, uh, how to use them, uh, and if it's something that they're not using necessarily today but we turn on in a conflict or crisis. They have to be comfortable enough with it in terms of training or just using data that they can actually use it and to their benefit. Um, and then the final piece is just how much, um, uh, how much work we have left to do. Um, we've really got a lot of things to figure out when it comes to Setting up some of these contracts, we've got to figure out how we deal with um, the idea that at some point one of our enemies might uh, target a commercial uh, capability, um, and what that means for the company, um, they need to protect their own, um, business interests. Right. Uh, because we're not the only customer. And so how we do that in a smart way, how we help protect them, uh, from things like that and how we um, get them to participate in these constructs when that might be the reality down the road is, is really really uh, critical. So uh, we're really excited about Kazer. I think it's got a lot of opportunity. I think it's going to be imperative for the, whatever the next conflict is that we have these contracts set up. And frankly we're already, we're already late in getting them set up. So um, we need to work faster and we need to get something on paper uh, very soon so that we can actually support the fight with uh, these commercial capabilities.

Speaker A: Yeah, it sounds like a lot, uh, to unpack uh, from some of those events and I'm just excited to broach the conversation, get it out in the air and let uh, Americans aware of. I think there's a little sense of comfort to know that the military is thinking through these things and pushing for innovation and uh, and again, you know, I think it's a common theme on a lot of these conversations that we talk through is like how do you kind of cut through, you know, some of the bureaucracy when it comes comes down to it. Right. We need to move quickly, uh, you know, to uh, you know, to protect, you know, our, our, you know, our people in, in this country, uh, you know, what, what steps are being taken to, to uh, to press forward on that. So I, it's, it's good to know like yeah, we're poking holes in the system and we're thinking through it and trying to troubleshoot and you might have already answered some of this last question, but I'm going to ask it anyways. So just like in closing, what would you say is kind of like some of the long term vision for commercial and government collaboration in space? What are you thinking through?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean there's a lot there. You notice when I talk about the mission of Comso, it's really to integrate commercial space into the DoD space architecture. So there's no specific capability area that we're going after. It's all of them. Um, COMSO is a resource to all of the missionary owners, um, and requirements, uh, folks. Yeah, I Think the way that I'd like to answer the question more specifically is talking about some of the challenges we still have. So some of the things that kind of keep me up at night, um, and that will become some of the things that we tackle over the next couple years, I think. So the first one it was kind of hit on by both Dan and Holly earlier is on the requirements side. Typically the uh, government comes up with uh, very specific requirements, sometimes prescriptive requirements that drive our industry partners to a point solution and the only way to fulfill those specific prescriptive requirements is to go build a new system, um, that is incongruent and doesn't align well if we want to take advantage of existing and upcoming commercial opportunities. So the way I like to think about some of those um, uh, activities is instead of requirements based acquisition, what if we did opportunities based acquisition? The example Holly gave with the polka dots and purple, what if it was pink? It'd be cheaper and faster. That's opportunities based acquisition. So if we can find a way to make our requirements process, um, align better to commercial and maybe that's through taking a step back and describing a problem or a capability need and then allowing our industry partners, whether commercial or not, to paint the picture of. Here's how I would actually tackle that war fighter problem. Um, we would probably get all kinds of answers that the government didn't even think of. And so we'd get a variety of innovative solutions. We'd probably get things that could be fielded quicker, fielded cheaper, uh, and ultimately deliver capability, the warfighter a lot sooner, which is the ultimate goal.

Speaker A: I like that. Opportunities based acquisition. Yeah, uh, just in essence of time, I wanted to pass it uh, over to Dan and Holly for a final word. Um, yeah, anything that's top of mind that you want to close with. Uh, it could be advice that you would give to the next startup founder out there that's trying to navigate their first partnership with Space Force or DoD at large or anything that you're hopeful for. Ah, with the long term vision of the collaboration with Spaceforce, Dan, maybe start with you and then we'll close with you, Holly?

Speaker B: Yeah, certainly. Um, so I'd say coming at this from an engineering background, uh, my engineering instincts told uh, me to basically be heads down and uh, make the technology as great as possible, which is still very good to do. Uh, the one, the thing I'd encourage the engineers to do is communicate, ah, to the point of over communication and so engaging with um, Tim's team and then following up on all the introductions that you get there, uh, it's super important. And it's that conversation or all those conversations that result, uh, that help you get around barriers. So around things like Holly brought up, they're asking for blue, but I've got pink. Um, it can be kind of awkward, but if you can have a lot of those conversations and just kind of continually educate everyone on what you're doing, what your constraints are, what you're kind of optimized for, what your company's optimized for, um, and then listen to their needs, um, you'll get, you'll get to a good place. But, uh, it does, um, at least for engineers, it requires kind of going outside your shell and, uh, having as many of those conversations as possible.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Good feedback. Um, Holly, uh, last comments.

Speaker D: Yeah, so kind of alluding to something that Dan said earlier. You know, if we're serious about kind of long term space resilience, uh, you know, the US Needs to have its own sovereign systems, not just like commercial augmentation in the moment of crisis. And so, so one thing that Xmalik has been promoting is this idea of having commercial companies build government owned systems built on the same technology that we've already proven with our architectures and our operational lessons that can then just be fielded commercially. Um, it doesn't need to be built from scratch. We can just build it and, you know, the way we've already done it and scale it for the government. So having resilience, I think, means more than just having single points of failure. Um, and so I think COMSO and CASA are great steps to integrate existing commercial capability, but I think a lasting resilience is going to require the government to shift beyond just buying data to buying ready to go systems from commercial companies.

Speaker A: Yeah, well said. All right. Yeah, I feel like we, we need like another hour if we want to really dive into the acquisition process and things like that. We're gonna, we're gonna pause on that and, uh, maybe table it for another, another day, another time. But I'm gonna transition us into this final segment. This is just an easy breezy, feel good, rapid fire Q and A segment. We call it the five second scramble. Uh, try to, you know, kick your answers within five seconds. Uh, we won't air horn you off if you do go a little long. Uh, but, uh, some, some business, some, some fun. You, uh, all ready to, to go? I'll start with you, Dan. You're on the, you're on the hot seat first.

Speaker B: Oh, all right.

Speaker A: Okay. Uh, starting off, if Leo Labs were an animal, what animal would it be?

Speaker B: Oh, man. I guess we'd have to be a lion. We kicked around, uh, being Leo the lion when we started the company.

Speaker A: I'd like to see that. Let's see that mascot come to life. Uh, what are some of the tech roles that you are hiring for over the next three to six months?

Speaker B: Uh, yeah, we're hiring for manufacturing engineers, maintenance engineers, uh, and probably digital signal processing. Uh, so for the maintenance of the manufacturing engineers, if you like to travel the world to exotic locations and work on radars and carry equipment out there, we've got jobs for you.

Speaker A: Oh, I'm sure there's a list of folks out there that would sign up. We'll promote it. We'll promote the roles on, uh, on the episode when we push it. Uh, do, uh, do aliens exist?

Speaker B: Oh, so again, maybe we need to go back to the disclaimer. Dan's personal opinion is, the universe is so big, they've got to be out there somewhere. I don't think they're, like, I'm not convinced they're here actively causing us trouble. But, uh, it's such a big universe.

Speaker A: I love it. Uh, what was your first car?

Speaker B: Uh, Honda. Honda, uh, Civic. Emanuel. Honda Civic. I love that car.

Speaker A: Nice. Yeah, that's a common first car. That's a good one.

Speaker C: Oh, geez.

Speaker A: I had a Honda Accord.

Speaker D: Lightweight.

Speaker B: They work well.

Speaker C: They actually work pretty well in snow.

Speaker B: And, uh, driving Emmanuel is a lot of fun.

Speaker A: Uh, what is a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Speaker B: Uh, oh, good question. So, I, you know, I'd say certainly Red Cross, uh, given, uh, some of the big disasters that, uh, have happened in the world, um, I find myself often donating to them, and LeoLabs has, um, supported some of their efforts as well.

Speaker A: Very cool. And then, last one, uh, favorite superhero.

Speaker B: Uh, let's see. I think it has to be, uh, maybe a superhero, but, uh, uh, Chase on Paw Patrol gets, uh, a lot

Speaker C: of airtime in my family right now.

Speaker B: And so, uh, uh, you know, there's Chase, but I also have to a funny story. I've got a good friend, uh, Marshall, uh, uh, who's also another character on Paw Patrol, and he stopped by the other day, and I just casually mentioned to my kids, oh, yeah, Marshall's going to come over. And my youngest looked up at me with huge eyes and said, marshall from

Speaker C: Paw Patrol is coming over.

Speaker B: And I had to quickly reset. No, no, no, no, no. Sorry, buddy. You know, it's just a person. Just A friend, but my kid didn't. Didn't forget. And the whole time my friend was over, he's just kind of in the corner watching him carefully, see if all

Speaker C: of a sudden he transforms into the papa character.

Speaker A: Marshall became a superhero for your kids?

Speaker B: Oh, he did. He did.

Speaker C: He remembers him well at all.

Speaker A: Good, uh, stuff. All right, well done. Uh, Holly, we'll. We'll jump to you next. What is a core kind of company value or trait that you find unique about the exo analytic culture?

Speaker D: Yeah, so our first value is action bias. Like, we'd rather you go and do something and get in trouble for it later than to not do something. So we just push all of our employees to, like, just do do things. And then my job in business operations is try to put up guardrails so we don't blow ourselves off the cliff. But. But do you want people to be action biased?

Speaker A: Very cool. Uh, what are some of the tech roles that you all are looking to hire for over the next three to six months?

Speaker D: Oh, um, um, a lot of programming jobs. Um, we do both traditional government work and telescope work. And on the traditional government side, we're seeing that mod and sim work moves forward really rapidly at the same time that we're selling more of our products. So, you know, we're. We're hiring for all of those kinds of roles. Mod and sim, you know, developers, basically.

Speaker A: Cool. Uh, I'll ask the same question. It's a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Speaker D: I. I think helping the. The homeless, I think that's just a integral thing that we have to do to, you know, help our fellow human beings.

Speaker A: Uh, what was your first job? Doesn't it to be, like, big professional job? Just very first job?

Speaker D: Yeah, I was a dishwasher at a convent. I'm not Catholic, but I worked at this convent, and I was a dishwasher. And, um, I do like working hard, and I think that as a founder of a startup, you end up doing a lot of jobs that are a lot like dishwashing. So I look back and think, yeah, that was a good experience to just learn to work hard at things that a lot of people view as kind of menial dogs. Jobs. I do a lot of menial jobs. Even. Even now, I think I can assure

Speaker A: you that's the first time we've ever heard that answer a dishwasher at a convent, uh, on the show. So kudos on the uniqueness, uh, factor there. And the last one, what's a hobby or skill that you have that people might not expect.

Speaker D: Um, okay. I work a lot, so I will say that, um, I always read everything that's in my inbox. I don't know if that's a hobby, but it's the first thing I do every morning. Um, and because some of my co workers have like 30,000 unread messages and I feel anxiety when I see their inbox over their shoulder, you know, uh, so I, I like that is my hobby is, is going through all my emails every morning before I come to work.

Speaker A: Good stuff. Spoken like a true entrepreneur. Um, well, well done. All right, uh, Tim, we'll, we'll wrap it up with you, um, and bring us home. So, uh, what is one thing that the Space Force is doing with commercial partners that most people don't realize?

Speaker C: One thing. Um, so I think what you're seeing within spaceworks specifically, um, you're seeing, um, we're continuing to do m, some of the small business innovative research projects that are sort of low dollar, but we call them Phase 1 and Phase 2s, um, low dollar, uh, short period of performance. Um, a lot of times that'll result in maybe software code or uh, a, uh, study outbreak, um, or those kinds of deliverables. Um, what a lot of people don't realize is our TACFI and STRATFI programs, the tactical finance increase and strategic finance increase, uh, programs are starting to really increase, uh, and accelerate too. So uh, a few years ago we would maybe do one or two of those per year. These days we're doing up to like 10 per year. And so these are bigger bets where we're pooling government funds with uh, private funds. So we're making a dollar from the government plus a dollar from private industry equal, uh, $3 at the end of the day. Because now we're really getting after dual use technologies, longer period of performance and delivering actual capability at the end of it.

Speaker A: Cool. Yeah, I love the stuff that coming out space works. Uh, what's one of your favorite parts about the culture, um, at Space Force?

Speaker C: You know, I was in the air force for 16 years doing all space, uh, acquisitions and operations. Um, been part of the Space Force now for four years. Um, I think the biggest thing that I really enjoyed is the intentional focus on delivering faster, moving faster, taking risk, leaning, um, forward and um, delivering very cool.

Speaker A: Favorite, ah, Disney character.

Speaker C: Ooh, favorite Disney character. Um, I don't know why, but I'll go with Goofy.

Speaker A: Nice. Uh, what's a charity or corporate philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

Speaker C: Yeah. So I, I would probably go with stem. Um, um, uh, you know, science, technology, engineering and math. Um, the only way, you know, I'll kind of bring it back to what I said at the top. The only way we're going to win the next war is, is with great innovative, uh, technologies, whether that's developed inside the government or outside the government, in the private industry side. Um, the only way to get that, um, or continue that and ensure the, the, the future of innovation is to make sure that our, uh, take those jobs and that they study math and engineering and technology. Um, and so STEM would be, uh, STEM would be it.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well said. All right. And, and we'll close with a real controversial one here. Um, you will be judged with, with your answer on this one. If you're going to set up the first fast food chain on Mars, what would it be?

Speaker C: Uh, Easy In N Out Burger. I'm a California guy.

Speaker A: I knew it was coming. I knew it.

Speaker B: It.

Speaker A: I knew it. And then, uh, you know, you're going to get a lot of folks over here that are going to say what about five guys?

Speaker C: It's a close second.

Speaker A: Awesome. Uh, that is a wrap, uh, on the episode. So I wanted to again thank, uh, Lieutenant Colonel Tremeo, uh, Holly, Dan, thank you all for joining us. Uh, and, and uh, kudos again on all the work that you all are doing to strengthen, you know, national security through commercial innovation. And uh, we're excited for the, for the future with uh, the continued partnership. So thank you all.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker D: Great.

Speaker A: Thank you.